Lightbulbs | Dangerous Memories Ep 6

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Speaker 25 Tortoise.

Speaker 42 And then, um,

Speaker 42 somebody told me about this man called Steve Hassan.

Speaker 25 In almost every direction I've turned in this investigation, there's one term I keep brushing up against. Cult.

Speaker 25 When I'm at my laptop, looking back over interview transcripts with experts, investigators and other former clients of Anne's, it's everywhere.

Speaker 25 And by the time Huey's mum Sarah picked up the phone to Dr. Stephen Hassan, it was on her mind too.

Speaker 25 Friends and family had been scouring the internet for answers.

Speaker 25 They were looking for someone who understood the situation they found themselves in and who knew how to get them out of it.

Speaker 40 I'm Dr. Stephen Hassen.
I am a licensed mental health counselor. I got interested in the area of mind control cults due to my own involvement in the Moonies in the mid-70s.

Speaker 25 Everything else had failed. The legal letters, the attempts to contact Huey and Tori directly, the police investigation.

Speaker 25 And the more they looked online, the more they started to come around to Fipsy's thinking. The conclusion she reached when she ended her sessions with Anne years earlier.

Speaker 43 I'm looking for help to help my friends who I love.

Speaker 43 I need to coax them into a place of trust, but somehow help them understand that they are victims of a sick, disturbing cult masquerading as a compassionate, kind, and most of all, knowledgeable woman who has contact with the spirit world and, at the end of the day, always knows best.

Speaker 43 What can I do?

Speaker 3 Also, it is possible.

Speaker 25 The question became:

Speaker 25 if Anne really was behaving like a cult leader,

Speaker 25 how could anyone convince her remaining followers to leave?

Speaker 25 And Dr. Stephen Hassan said he had some ideas.

Speaker 25 But here's the thing:

Speaker 25 even if you can bring someone home, it doesn't mean it's the end of the story

Speaker 25 for the clients, the families,

Speaker 25 or for Anne.

Speaker 25 Getting out doesn't mean the dangerous memories fade away.

Speaker 25 I'm Grace Usalet, and from Tortoise, this is episode 6:

Speaker 25 Light Bulbs.

Speaker 25 forget forgone conclusions. I'm waiting only answers

Speaker 25 the

Speaker 25 love

Speaker 25 Hey, ya

Speaker 25 Na

Speaker 25 Heya

Speaker 25 Life and Super So, what I teach family and friends is the strategic interactive approach.

Speaker 40 And the idea is to be very focused on the goal, which isn't to get the person away from the cult, but the goal is to empower the person to think for themselves and make their own decisions.

Speaker 25 After Sarah explained the situation, Dr. Hassan said he could fly over from the US to meet in person.

Speaker 42 You know, I hired him for the day to give us a workshop.

Speaker 25 The plan was to hold a team preparation meeting.

Speaker 25 Sarah was tasked with gathering all of Huey's closest friends and family to learn about this strategic interactive approach.

Speaker 25 They would listen to what Stephen had to say and come away with a new plan of action.

Speaker 40 And I'll do a primer on brainwashing, mind control, how to understand it, and then how to talk to somebody and how to interact in effective ways.

Speaker 25 So Sarah invited 20 of the people closest to Huey, including Fipsy, to come and meet in the Sloan Club in Chelsea. Tori's mum and friends came too.

Speaker 42 And so I don't know what to expect. I just know I'd shelled out quite a bit of money and

Speaker 42 organized some food. And anyway, this man walks in and he says, I'm Jewish and I'm incredibly intelligent.

Speaker 42 And if somebody had told me a few years ago that I would work for free for a madman called Moon, then I would have told them they were crazy. But he said, the moon has got me.

Speaker 25 Stephen's own story is important.

Speaker 25 because he has first-hand experience of life in a cult.

Speaker 25 I wanted to know what you would say to a listener who might be hearing the story of Huey and the other young women and thinking that would never happen to me.

Speaker 25 I would never believe things that weren't true of my past, of my family.

Speaker 40 Well, what I would say to people is that's exactly my mindset that made me so vulnerable to being recruited into the moonies. I was

Speaker 25 the 1970s.

Speaker 25 He was 19.

Speaker 25 At the start of a new college semester, a group of women asked if they could sit with him at his table in the cafeteria.

Speaker 25 He said yes. He thought, maybe, if things went well, it might lead to a date.

Speaker 25 But these women weren't fellow students, as he'd assumed. They were members of the Unification Church.
Its followers are known to the wider world as Moonies.

Speaker 25 after their leader, the Reverend Sun Myung Moon.

Speaker 25 And that meeting would be the first in a series of events that would lead to him joining a cult.

Speaker 25 Over time, Stephen says he was brainwashed.

Speaker 25 The people, the place, and the time were different to Huey and Tori's experiences, but he came to believe similar things about his own family and his own past.

Speaker 40 As a Mooney,

Speaker 40 I believed I had a terrible childhood and I had been physically abused by my father. And when I got to the city of the world,

Speaker 25 he believed Sun Myung Moon was his true parent, and he cut ties with his family and friends.

Speaker 25 In the end, it took a near-fatal accident that led him to reconnect with his sister before Stephen began his long journey back to himself and to his family.

Speaker 25 So he knows what it means to be under the influence of someone you believe in and he knows what it takes to end that relationship.

Speaker 25 And now he was going to teach the team Sarah had assembled how to give themselves the best chance of getting their daughter, their friend, back.

Speaker 42 It was the most fascinating day and what the three things I got out of it most, which actually changed everything for me.

Speaker 42 The first thing he said was, you can put a bullet through the woman, but you'll never get your daughter's back until their light bulb comes on.

Speaker 42 So you can't do any force, you know, other people to say, well, why don't you just kidnap her? Why don't you do this? Why don't you do that? And he said, you know, their light bulb has to come on.

Speaker 42 They have to see it for themselves. You can't do physical separation.

Speaker 25 Step one.

Speaker 25 Be patient.

Speaker 25 Stephen told them that the interventions they'd been trying, turning up on Huey's door, sending emails pleading for her to see sense about Anne,

Speaker 25 they were never going to work.

Speaker 25 Instead, they would have to wait.

Speaker 42 And then the second thing was he said, if they ever put their head above the parapet, hi, I'm here, you don't say, how did you have done that to me?

Speaker 42 He said, you just say this is the best day of my life. You know, you do not make any judgment on them at all because they will disappear under that parapet, you know, immediately.

Speaker 25 Step two:

Speaker 25 acceptance.

Speaker 42 And then the third thing he said was:

Speaker 42 even

Speaker 42 when their light bulb comes on, and even when they realize that they have got everything wrong, and that the

Speaker 42 person who they think is, you know,

Speaker 42 their saviour or their

Speaker 42 guru or their mother or, you know,

Speaker 42 this person,

Speaker 42 even when their light bulb comes on, they realize that the person is a fraud.

Speaker 42 The hardest thing is for them to come back home because they have to admit that every decision they made was wrong.

Speaker 42 So he said,

Speaker 42 even when the light bulb comes on, even when they've escaped, it's very, very hard for them to come home.

Speaker 25 Step three, prepare for the future. It's a long road they have to travel.

Speaker 25 And these three steps only get them home. They don't deal with everything that follows.

Speaker 25 But Sarah wasn't thinking that far ahead. She was still waiting for that light bulb to come on.
Waiting for her daughter's head to appear above the parapet.

Speaker 44 And then Tori had moved moved to this place called Grow Heathrow, and Tori was like, hey, why didn't you come and live here?

Speaker 25 Tori, the client Anne referred to as the other person when she told Huey about her, was living in a kind of makeshift protest camp in a field called Grow Heathrow.

Speaker 25 It was built in a bid to stop the expansion of Heathrow Airport in southwest London. And now, Huey was thinking of joining her.

Speaker 25 They'd kept in touch ever since they got to know each other during the period that Anne was on police bail.

Speaker 44 And Anne was very like, I'm not sure you should do that. I'm not sure.
But I just didn't, her rules didn't affect.

Speaker 44 If she said I could or couldn't do something, it didn't have that same very subtle shift. I didn't have that same grip on me.

Speaker 44 And she said, well, ask in a dream tonight if you're meant to go.

Speaker 25 The dream apparently confirmed that she should go. But almost immediately after she arrived, there was a problem.

Speaker 44 On my first day of moving there,

Speaker 44 Tori had a session with Anne and then she came back and did not speak to me again. It was interesting

Speaker 45 because

Speaker 45 Anne would say

Speaker 45 quite harsh things about Huey to me, how Huey was trying to take my experiences from me and by coming to Growheath Row and

Speaker 45 encouraging me to see Huey in sort of a

Speaker 25 not such a good light.

Speaker 45 And it definitely, it was like she was setting us against each other, you know.

Speaker 25 They'd been gravitating closer to each other, becoming allies who were now only living meters apart.

Speaker 25 But it seemed like Anne was intent on stopping that, exerting her remaining control by pitting them against each other.

Speaker 45 And I remember sitting in Anne's car with her.

Speaker 25 Tori remembers Anne coming to visit her when she was living at Growheath Row.

Speaker 45 I remember saying to her, like, Anne, I can see some improvements in my life, but the eating disorder is not getting any better. And I still feel really suicidal.
And I still just have no

Speaker 45 desire to be living this life.

Speaker 45 And I remember her looking really panicked. And she said,

Speaker 45 okay, I think you should see

Speaker 45 this woman called Vivian. And Vivian was someone who was helping her.

Speaker 25 Vivian was a healer who Anne was also seeing. Vivian worked with angels and energy and Tori took Anne up on the offer.

Speaker 45 And I remember saying to me in the first session that like my energy was really bonded to Anne and that she was going to help me kind of break those bonds.

Speaker 45 And I remember sensing from the way she said that, she said it in quite a neutral way, but I was like, I know this is like not a,

Speaker 45 it's, we're bonded in an unhealthy way.

Speaker 25 I don't know why Anne made this suggestion. or if she knew what the outcome of it would be.

Speaker 25 My first reaction was that either Anne had panicked about Tori's state of mind and felt overwhelmed, or that she could sense Tori was looking for a way out of their journey together and that she hoped Vivian could talk Tori back around.

Speaker 25 But Tori has a different interpretation. At the time, she saw it as a genuine act of concern for her well-being.

Speaker 25 She says there was almost a mother-daughter dynamic between her and Anne.

Speaker 25 But with the benefit of hindsight, hindsight, she wonders if Anne used this dynamic in order to coerce her.

Speaker 25 Tori still finds it really hard to figure out what Anne's intentions towards her were.

Speaker 25 Do you remember

Speaker 25 when the idea came to you to

Speaker 25 leave England?

Speaker 45 Anne and I, we went to the beach together. She drove us.
And we went, we walked along the beach.

Speaker 45 And I just remember thinking like ah i just want to be free of this this woman and i remember like i couldn't help i just walked off and i just felt like i was shaking some energy off me and my energy was expanding like like massive like almost like taking over the planet um

Speaker 45 and

Speaker 45 yeah i just knew i i just i needed to leave i needed to leave england leave and leave my family and just almost put everything that i had experienced in a box put it to one side and just go out into the world and

Speaker 45 stop asking myself this question, was I abused, was I not abused, and let life show me the truth.

Speaker 45 And I wanted to have experiences that made me want to be here, made me want to be alive and so that's what I did.

Speaker 25 Tori's light bulb was flickering into life.

Speaker 25 But she told Anne they could continue working together, just less frequently, from a distance.

Speaker 25 So she moved to Spain.

Speaker 25 She had a plan to go and work with horses near the sea.

Speaker 25 She was interested in a specific method of natural horsemanship, where the trainers encourage you to create bonds with the animals without manipulation.

Speaker 25 She wanted space on her own to work out what to do next.

Speaker 1 Hey friends, it's Nikayla from the podcast Side Hustle Pro.

Speaker 4 I'm always looking for ways to keep my kids entertained without screens, and the Yoto Mini has been a total lifesaver.

Speaker 5 My kids are obsessed.

Speaker 7 Yoto is a screen-free audio player where kids just pop in a card and listen.

Speaker 11 Hours of stories, music, podcasts, and more, and no screens or ads.

Speaker 12 With hundreds of options for ages 0 to 12, it's the perfect gift they'll go back to again and again.

Speaker 16 Check it out at yotoplay.com, Y-O-T-O-P-L-A-Y dot com.

Speaker 17 A lot of supplement brands chase trends, but if you're serious about your health, we know research-backed science is what actually moves the needle.

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Speaker 26 So you get the best long-term results possible.

Speaker 17 Creatine isn't just for muscle gains, it's essential daily fuel for your brain, body, and long-term performance.

Speaker 30 Momentous Creopure Creatine is backed by leading performance experts like Dr.

Speaker 17 Andrew Huberman and Dr.

Speaker 24 Stacey Sims.

Speaker 19 Sourced exclusively in Germany, Creopure sets the gold standard for creatine, delivering the purest form creatine monohydrate that's rigorously washed and never cut with fillers.

Speaker 33 With over 2,000 five-star reviews, over 112,000 customers have seen the results firsthand.

Speaker 22 With Momentous, the fundamentals are done right.

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Speaker 42 Welcome aboard the Southern Service to Brighton.

Speaker 25 Calling at Sean Bisea and Brighton.

Speaker 44 So I lived there for like a year and a half at Grohe Throw

Speaker 44 and then one day I told Tory that I was leaving.

Speaker 25 Before Torrey left England, Huey had also decided to make a move.

Speaker 44 I kept having dreams that I needed to move to Brighton and so I went down to Brighton one day on the train and I found a little caravan on sale and I bused.

Speaker 44 I had no money when I went down there.

Speaker 25 For a while, when she was at Grohe Throw,

Speaker 25 she'd felt that she'd had a little more freedom from Anne.

Speaker 25 Anne seemed more concentrated on Tori.

Speaker 44 And then she was suddenly like, oh, Huey, you know, you're actually the one I need. You're the one I need to get to the light, and you're the one, and you're the chosen one.

Speaker 44 And, you know, I'm so and she.

Speaker 25 With Tori out of reach, Huey felt Anne's focus retrained on her.

Speaker 25 When Huey moved to Brighton, life was not straightforward. She started out living in a caravan with her two cats.

Speaker 25 But in a bit of bad timing, the council wanted to clear the site not long after she'd moved in.

Speaker 25 So, with nowhere else to go, she bought a little tent and she went into the woods.

Speaker 25 She'd learnt how to live outside at Grohe Throw, and she hoped she could make it work with the help of a portable solar panel. It sounds...
ambitious.

Speaker 25 As the season turned from autumn to winter, it became clear that Huey's tent wasn't going to offer her or the cats much protection. But then someone made her an offer.

Speaker 25 She'd recently turned to her music. and now she was writing and performing her own material.
She'd met people through busking, and one of them, a woman called Dee Dee, offered her a place to stay.

Speaker 25 It was a kind offer but a big shift. She hadn't trusted anyone in that way for some time so she was apprehensive and she turned to Anne for her opinion.

Speaker 44 Really encouraged, she was saying, look, you've found your way,

Speaker 44 you found your way with the tents and you know, just find another spot to camp, don't move in with her, just keep being a free spirit.

Speaker 44 So I was like trying to walk through all the woods near Brighton, trying to find another spot, and it just wasn't anywhere appropriate to live.

Speaker 25 Likely friends says a sister condoms can be free.

Speaker 25 So she moved in with Dee Dee and it turned into a positive experience. She felt a sense of belonging with Dee Dee's family and her music was taking shape too.

Speaker 25 She'd travel into London and busk in front of crowds of tourists on the south bank.

Speaker 25 She'd try and sell the album she'd recorded with her own artwork on the cover.

Speaker 25 Sometimes she'd play alongside other musicians and one day one of them, who she didn't know too well, struck up a conversation about spirituality.

Speaker 44 He just started talking to me about these spiritual kind of gurus

Speaker 44 who are actually really controlling and they use spirituality and spiritual practice to control people and it was suddenly like

Speaker 44 just something shifted in me. I don't know how to describe it but I just felt I think a lot of anger towards Anne suddenly and doesn't sound like much.

Speaker 25 But for Huey this was a huge moment.

Speaker 25 Sometimes it's just about the right person saying the right thing at the right time

Speaker 25 and everything changes.

Speaker 25 And this seems to be the light bulb moment Stephen Hassan was talking about.

Speaker 25 Step one,

Speaker 25 complete.

Speaker 25 When Huey was on the train home to Brighton later that day, She checked her phone. There were several missed calls from Anne.

Speaker 25 then Anne rang again.

Speaker 25 So Huey picked up. She says Anne started asking her why she had been out busking for so long, why she hadn't gone home.

Speaker 44 And so I was on the phone to her on the way home and I just said, look, Anne, you know, I really value our communication and our friendship and everything you've done for me over the years.

Speaker 44 And I just feel like

Speaker 44 maybe we don't need to speak every day. Maybe it would be really nice for us if we could just like,

Speaker 44 you know, you have a few days experiencing life how you do and I can experience life how I do and then we can like catch up after a few days.

Speaker 44 And she just said, well, maybe we'll just never speak again and just hung up.

Speaker 44 And I was like, what the hell?

Speaker 44 I tried to call her back and her phone was off and she wouldn't pick up and then eventually she picked up and I was like, Anne, what's the matter? I'm not saying I don't want to speak to you again.

Speaker 44 I just said, you know, maybe we could just not speak every day.

Speaker 44 And I feel it would be good for me to have a bit more room to experience life and then we can chat about, you know, our experiences and share, you know, in a nice way, like have a nice friendship and a nice relationship.

Speaker 44 And she just sounded really wounded, really upset,

Speaker 44 like quite fragile. I was like, okay, Huey, okay.

Speaker 25 Yeah, that's fine, okay.

Speaker 44 And then, um,

Speaker 44 And then I never really spoke to her again. And that was it.

Speaker 25 Huey had one more conversation with Anne after that.

Speaker 25 There was an important development in her life that she wanted to share. When she'd moved to Brighton, she'd met someone who would become her partner

Speaker 25 and

Speaker 25 she was pregnant.

Speaker 25 So she emailed Anne. She planned to tell her about this big update.

Speaker 44 She wrote back this message saying,

Speaker 44 I can't speak now. I'm really sorry.
I cannot be distracted. I'm about to get all the final pieces.
It's all coming together. It's all about the police.
It's all coming together.

Speaker 44 I just, I just can't be distracted from my journey now. And I was like, my God, it's been like a year since we last spoke, or like eight months, and you're still

Speaker 44 talking about the same things. Like for years, it was always, oh, this is the final piece.
Oh, this is the last piece. It's all coming together.
We're going to break through. We're going to break it.

Speaker 44 And so much had happened to me in my life. Huge life shifts that give you a different perspective.
And there she was, still in her, like,

Speaker 44 obsession with these pieces and the police. And

Speaker 44 yeah, it was like the first moment where I was like, ah,

Speaker 25 something,

Speaker 44 something not right.

Speaker 25 And yeah, that's basically

Speaker 25 the end.

Speaker 25 But it's not the end.

Speaker 25 It's not really the end at all.

Speaker 25 There's an important distinction to make here.

Speaker 25 Leaving Anne and reuniting with all the family and friends that have been cut from Huey's life are not the same thing.

Speaker 25 One doesn't necessarily lead to the other.

Speaker 25 The sessions and everything else that came with them might have stopped there.

Speaker 25 But the thoughts and beliefs that had formed in Huey's head over years hadn't changed. She still believed she was the victim of abuse at the hands of her family.

Speaker 25 As for Sarah, she had no idea that Huey had left Anne, or in fact, where Huey was.

Speaker 25 She was still missing.

Speaker 25 The parapet that Sarah was so carefully watching from afar, the one she was praying to see her daughter emerge from under, didn't feel any closer.

Speaker 44 I was sitting on a bus on my way home. I was about seven months pregnant, and

Speaker 44 I don't know, it was really weird. I was trying to decide what to make for dinner, and I was like, okay, either I'm gonna make veggie lasagna or I'm gonna make a stir-fry.

Speaker 44 But each one was gonna take me to a different shop. And I remember it felt like the biggest decision in the world.
And I was like, why does this feel like such a big decision?

Speaker 44 And in the end, I chose the veggie lasagna, and I had to go to this health shop in Brighton to get those ingredients

Speaker 42 and so I was like and then one afternoon I get an email from somebody I've been at school with who said oh Sarah and my son Leo was walking down a narrow alley in Brighton today

Speaker 42 and he saw a vegan cafe

Speaker 42 and he went in and there was Huey

Speaker 42 and

Speaker 44 I sort of of just saw him. And by the time I'd seen him, it was almost too late to move.
So I tried to just act really cool. And he was like, hi.

Speaker 44 And I kind of had my shopping basket kind of, I think, almost in front of my tummy. I was just trying to protect my, just trying to hide.
And somewhere I was like, hi, oh, hi, hi.

Speaker 44 Funny to see you. Just trying to act as normal as possible.
And then he just looked down at my tummy and was like, what's this?

Speaker 44 He then went on, because I didn't know that he knew my family, and he then was like, oh, I saw your mum recently. And then suddenly I went into this plummet of despair.

Speaker 44 Because by this point, even though I wasn't in touch with Anne anymore, I still believed really strongly that all the stuff was real. All the abuse stuff was real.
And

Speaker 44 Anne always said that if my family ever got me back, they'd want to section me, especially my grandmother, because she'd want all the family secrets to be hidden.

Speaker 44 So when he he said that he knew my family I became really, really frightened.

Speaker 44 And I remember walking.

Speaker 42 And I just remember, you know, I hadn't known where she was for two years and my legs just buckled under me. And

Speaker 25 I mean, it was completely extraordinary. Sarah had no clue where Huey was.
At one point, she heard a rumour she was abroad. She thought she'd lost her.

Speaker 25 So this chance encounter, it was a new lead. and Sarah knew who could put it to use.

Speaker 25 The private detective she'd used in the past. She picked up the phone and asked him if he could find Huey's current address.

Speaker 42 And four hours later, four hours later, I get an address.

Speaker 25 And then I'm thinking, oh, you know, what do I do? What do I do?

Speaker 25 Sarah decided to send a postcard. She worried that a letter in an envelope might be left unopened.

Speaker 42 I just wrote on the postcard,

Speaker 42 I hear you are having a baby in October. I love you very much.
This is my email.

Speaker 25 She had no idea what, if anything, the response would be.

Speaker 25 So Sarah and her husband Henry went on a holiday they'd planned and they waited.

Speaker 44 I think it took me one or two weeks to decide what to do and eventually I was like, I can either spend the rest of my life running from my family or I can like turn and face them.

Speaker 25 When Huey met her partner, he'd listened to what she believed about her family and accepted it as the truth.

Speaker 44 It was like a massive thing for him.

Speaker 44 But then after like a bit of time, he was like, you know, have you ever asked your family these things? Have you ever spoken to them? And he started challenging me quite early on.

Speaker 44 He was like, who is this woman? I would sort of describe Anne. He'd be like, but that just doesn't sound normal.
Why was she behaving like this? Or why was she like that?

Speaker 44 But he'd always said to me, you need to speak to your family. You need to confront them.

Speaker 44 You need to, at least if you can look them in the eye and say, I never want to speak to you again, it's better than just running and not talking to them.

Speaker 25 Huey decided to reply. She agreed to meet, but she had conditions.

Speaker 25 She wanted to agree on a frame.

Speaker 25 It could be a 40-minute meeting in Brighton, no longer than that.

Speaker 25 And then she sent her mum an email. The first contact she'd made in six years.

Speaker 42 Ten days later,

Speaker 42 late, you know, it's 11 o'clock at night. I can feel it like yesterday.
My phone goes bing

Speaker 42 and there's an email from her.

Speaker 25 And I woke up, Henry was asleep. I said, no, she's answered, she's answered.

Speaker 42 And he said, we'll answer in the morning. I said, no, no, we'll answer now.
And I just sent an email back saying, I accept any conditions. I love you.

Speaker 25 They agreed on a time and place to meet. Just the two of them, mother and daughter.

Speaker 44 And I remember walking towards the bus stop where we agreed to meet, and I was so nervous.

Speaker 25 When they finally saw each other, it was a bit stilted and formal. They'd not been around each other in this way for years.

Speaker 25 It was all unfamiliar and awkward. They shook hands.

Speaker 25 And so she came round the corner, you know, this little shawl over her head.

Speaker 42 And I wasn't quite sure.

Speaker 42 You know, I was apprehensive and I wanted to touch her, but it was definitely not a question of putting my arms around her, because that would have been such an invasion of space.

Speaker 25 They started to walk up a hill, and after half an hour, Huey's nerves started to dissolve.

Speaker 44 She was kind of able to undo so much in that initial meeting that had had taken years and years and years to build up so much mistrust so much hatred so much

Speaker 44 you know anger and then it was just like melting away and melting away and she was so

Speaker 44 soft and kind and non-confrontational

Speaker 44 I told her so many things that I believed had happened to me or that she'd done to me or that others had done to me and she never got angry with me.

Speaker 44 She wasn't defensive in any way.

Speaker 44 I was able to just be really open with her and we just had a really honest conversation and so even though I'd given her this like 40 minute window, I think we chatted for like two and a half hours and then literally we were like back

Speaker 44 straight back to being so close.

Speaker 44 We called each other all the time and had these we had these long mammoth like two hour phone sessions where it was like we would just talk about everything and anything and we're just so close and it was really amazing.

Speaker 25 Step two of Stephen Hassan's strategy was complete. And there's a temptation to leave it there with Huey and Sarah.

Speaker 25 Often when I tell people about this story, they ask me, have they reunited with their families? It was one of the questions Mick Brown, the telegraph journalist, asked me early on.

Speaker 25 He wasn't sure what had happened with them. And it's what people want to hear.

Speaker 25 A coincidental meeting, a joyful reunion, a neat and happy ending. But the reality is much more complicated.
The reunion is not the end of the story.

Speaker 25 It's just the end of a chapter. And it's the final chapter, I think, that makes this story so important.

Speaker 25 Step 3. Coming to terms with the idea that everything you had believed was wrong.

Speaker 42 You know, it was just

Speaker 42 obviously, you know, one of the best days of my life. It was just, you know, but it's, you know, I don't want anyone to think,

Speaker 42 you know, yes, I got Huey back five years ago, but having to talk to somebody for three hours a day for two years,

Speaker 42 but because it goes back to Steve Hassan saying,

Speaker 42 you know, the third thing he said was the hardest thing is for them to come home because they have to accept that every single decision they made was wrong.

Speaker 42 And, you know, and darling Huey, for you know, for three years said, you know, well, you know, I completely accept, you know,

Speaker 42 that none of this happened, but something must have happened to me because I can't believe I could have been taken. And that's what's so frightening.

Speaker 42 So, Huey has definitely accepted that nothing happened to her. But, you know, to take five years to

Speaker 42 come to that conclusion after you've been reunited with your family, it just shows how dangerous this mental abuse is.

Speaker 25 How do you think Huey is now?

Speaker 42 Well, I I think she's, you know, she's, you know, an incredible mother and a wonderful daughter, but, you know, she's been,

Speaker 42 she does get triggered because, you know, that woman took away her self-belief.

Speaker 42 You know, when other young people between 22 and 32 were learning to love themselves and to grow up, that woman stole that from her.

Speaker 25 Ever since Huey reunited with her family, she's been trying to untangle herself from Anne's web, thread by thread. In the early days, she found help through a qualified and regulated psychotherapist.

Speaker 25 He was very helpful to her.

Speaker 25 Huey says seeing him was a revelatory insight into what good, effective mental health support should be.

Speaker 44 And then about a year ago,

Speaker 44 I wanted to start dealing with Anne.

Speaker 25 So she went to see someone called Dr. Alex Alex Stein, who helps people understand how to identify and protect themselves from recruitment to cults.

Speaker 25 She's destroyed people's lives, made them sick.

Speaker 25 And it doesn't just destroy the life of the person directly involved, it destroys their families as well. It has a wide effect

Speaker 25 and their friends.

Speaker 25 It wrenches someone out of their social world

Speaker 25 into this crazy world.

Speaker 25 When you first were told this story, did you recognize it immediately as a cult?

Speaker 25 Yes, yeah. I mean, the fact that it was tiny and sort of informally structured doesn't really matter.
It was a small group and it fit all my criteria of what a cult is.

Speaker 25 You know, there are cults everywhere. You may be going to yoga.
You may join a running club. You may join a Christian study group.
Yeah, it was not surprising to me in that way.

Speaker 25 You know, I hear these stories all the time.

Speaker 25 And

Speaker 25 there's so much more of this than people understand.

Speaker 25 Yeah, it's a real threat. It's a real threat to people.

Speaker 25 Dr. Stein told me about a list of warning signs she's identified.
Things to look out for that suggest someone is engaging in a cultic relationship.

Speaker 25 And as I listened to that list, I felt the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. You know, don't see your old friends anymore because they're going to hold back your development and your progress.

Speaker 25 Warning signs include the leader being the only person with the answer. Only they can solve your problems.

Speaker 25 Attempts to isolate you from existing relationships. You also isolate people from each other in the group.
The leader creates conditions of extreme stress.

Speaker 25 And the leader's world, you state, is the good world, the best world, and the only good world, and the leader's the only good person, and everything else outside is negative.

Speaker 25 Then you arouse stress, threat, fear

Speaker 25 in the person.

Speaker 25 Those who leave are shunned or pitied.

Speaker 25 The list goes on. And it takes a lot of bravery to speak about the perpetrator and about the group, because they've spent a lot of time telling you,

Speaker 25 you know, that you're going to die if you break the rules. And so you have to work through that fear.
And I think that must be what Huey is confronting. And

Speaker 25 again, I think it's really admirable.

Speaker 25 Good on you, Huey.

Speaker 25 When Huey told Alex about what she'd been through with Anne, it proved to be cathartic.

Speaker 44 But there were so many light bulb moments in that first session with her where I was telling her all these things that Anne would teach me.

Speaker 44 And the more she explained to me, the more I was like, I stopped feeling guilt that I was angry with Anne. I stopped feeling loyalty to Anne.
I just felt so much anger because I was like, oh my god,

Speaker 25 she...

Speaker 44 She must have known what she was doing, but I swing in and out of it.

Speaker 25 It's very hard.

Speaker 25 I've spoken with other cult experts too to test what we've heard about Anne from her former clients.

Speaker 25 One, Daniel Shaw, a psychotherapist, believes that most cult leaders are often in denial about their own history of trauma and their solution to that is what he calls a delusion of omnipotence.

Speaker 25 So in Anne's case, that's a belief in herself without any real credentials and without any real training, an entitlement to interpret and control other people based on a delusion, an omnipotent kind of righteousness.

Speaker 25 The term he uses to refer to this type of character is the traumatising narcissist.

Speaker 25 This is not a clinical or definitive diagnosis. And of course, I'm not qualified to make one.
It's not my job. But when I think about Anne,

Speaker 25 what she was doing, and why,

Speaker 25 there is one thing I'm clear on. The journey she took Huey and Tori on is not over.

Speaker 25 The sessions may have ended a long time ago now, but both of them are still dealing with the consequences.

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Speaker 25 From her time with the horses in Spain, Tori went hitchhiking around the world.

Speaker 25 She said she put her experiences with Anne in a box in the back of her mind and hoped that the truth would emerge naturally as she roamed.

Speaker 25 She can't recall one definitive light bulb moment, but she does remember when she put her head above the parapet.

Speaker 25 Her cousin sent her a message while she was in New Zealand that eventually led to a phone call, but it would take some time before Tori spoke directly to her brother. then her dad,

Speaker 25 and longer still before she spoke to her mother.

Speaker 25 It was the first conversation she had chosen to have with her in nine years.

Speaker 25 When we spoke for these interviews last year, it was only the second time Tori had visited London since she left on her travels.

Speaker 25 And it was clear, like Huey, she was still figuring out just how far into her mind and memory Anne's web extended.

Speaker 45 It was like actually only last night that I'm going to get upset.

Speaker 45 yeah it was only only last night that I was able to actually like write down

Speaker 45 like the main things that I was believing that really

Speaker 45 were like the anchor points of

Speaker 25 my work with Anne for better for a better word

Speaker 45 and yeah last night was the first time like I actually

Speaker 45 typed it out and and and

Speaker 45 sort of faced it in a way.

Speaker 25 So

Speaker 45 I think I'm still experiencing the effect of that. And I think there's like, yeah, a lot of

Speaker 45 feelings that I just like haven't wanted to feel or like confront or deal with or

Speaker 45 I'm yeah, I'm still kind of like landing with it like

Speaker 45 but certainly there's like a lot of emotion

Speaker 45 and yeah, probably a lot of sadness.

Speaker 45 And I guess I didn't r realize how much of an impact it had on me somehow.

Speaker 25 Maybe because I just how much believing that yeah, I thought, oh,

Speaker 45 okay, I sort of thought I was fine somehow.

Speaker 25 Yeah.

Speaker 25 What first got me interested in this story was that a woman my age from a similar world to mine had gone missing for years. because of what I heard was a rogue therapist figure.

Speaker 25 I wondered how that would be possible. Maybe it was an isolated story.

Speaker 25 But over the months that we've been investigating, it's become clear that Huey wasn't alone.

Speaker 25 After I sat down and listened to her story, and then Tori and Fipsy, we started to hear from more former clients who had their own concerns about Anne Craig.

Speaker 25 They came to eight in total. and we know of more who chose not to speak about their experience.

Speaker 25 What emerged from these conversations was a theme of controlling, unprofessional behaviour from the person they had sought help from.

Speaker 25 And so I became fixated on trying to find out what had motivated Anne to behave that way, as did the rest of my team.

Speaker 25 It was the question that drove the making of this podcast.

Speaker 25 The final one I asked every person I interviewed. What do you think it was that motivated Anne?

Speaker 42 I think it was a power thing.

Speaker 25 Entrap and control people.

Speaker 48 It is certainly not unusual for it to happen, and I think sometimes they just enjoy the power.

Speaker 25 Driven by their personalities and the needs of those unhappy and unhealthy personality types.

Speaker 42 It sounds to me like she's overcoming her own trauma and trying to make everybody else join her club.

Speaker 48 They might not admit that to themselves, but I think that often is a motivation.

Speaker 25 I suspect we wouldn't have been as fascinated by the inner workings and psychology that drove Anne if she was a man.

Speaker 25 I think I have, for better or worse, an inner propensity to expect and believe that men can intentionally do serious harm, whether it's dropping bombs on civilian populations, sexual assault, ruthless lies in the workplace at the cost of others, forming cults to manipulate people for their own personal gain, but women and malice,

Speaker 25 women knowingly doing serious harm. My knee-jerk response is to try and find a reason why that might not be true, an excuse for why they did it, or even a man who might be manipulating them.

Speaker 25 It's a kind of inverse sexism against my own, I think.

Speaker 25 I went round and round with that thought process a lot in the making of this, and at times I felt concerned about Anne, in a way I don't think I would have worried about a man.

Speaker 25 But the fact is that two young women lost years of their young lives to isolation and misery under her unwavering mission, and she destroyed their families in the process.

Speaker 25 And more than that, It's clear from spending time with Huey and Tori, both now well into their 30s, that they're still searching for the footing they lost in this world and in their families, and for the self-belief that Anne denied them.

Speaker 25 So what, in the end, do I think about Anne's motivations?

Speaker 25 Well, towards the end of our reporting, it felt like the right time to speak to her and ask her directly.

Speaker 25 I'd always hoped to sit down with Anne and hear her side of the story. So we sent her a letter explaining what we'd been working on and asking if she'd be open to an interview.
And then we waited.

Speaker 25 Her response, via her lawyer, made it clear an interview would not be happening.

Speaker 25 So instead, we sent her a list of the allegations that had been made against her and a set of questions we hoped she'd answer.

Speaker 25 Questions like, are you still practicing as a teacher of personal development? What motivated you in your work with clients?

Speaker 25 As we were writing this episode, we got a reply.

Speaker 25 In a long letter from her lawyers, Anne Craig claims it is abundantly clear that we've been told inaccurate and incorrect information by those who feature in this podcast.

Speaker 25 Anne disputes or vehemently denies almost everything Huey, Torrey and Fipsy have told us. She claims that the allegations are baseless, false and defamatory.
The details, fabrications.

Speaker 25 The letter argues that because the police investigated Anne in 2014 and found no evidence of criminality, that it therefore means our investigation is of no purpose.

Speaker 25 But this was at a time when Huey and Tory were still having sessions with Anne, writing letters of support in her defence.

Speaker 25 In the lawyer's letter, Anne says of Huey that she's prone to exaggeration and had difficulty with the truth. When I read this, I was reminded of something.

Speaker 25 When I was interviewing him, the Telegraph journalist Mick Brown told me that Anne had said something very similar of Fipsy in 2017, at a time when Fipsy had left her, but Tori and Huey were still seeing Anne.

Speaker 25 One of the few things Anne does admit to is instructing her clients to burn the the writing they did for her. She says, solely for confidentiality purposes.

Speaker 25 She refutes that her actions have had damaging and lasting consequences, and she refused to answer any of my questions, including the one about whether she's still working.

Speaker 25 So there it is.

Speaker 25 No answers from Anne on why she did this. So I can't know what motivated her.
And she's definitely not offered any form of admission or apology, that's for sure.

Speaker 25 But I think what her lawyer's letter does make clear to me is that whatever it is that drives her has made her either blind to the damage caused or has given her the conviction to willfully ignore it.

Speaker 25 After speaking to everyone involved in the story and the experts who have commented on it, it seems to me that a part of Anne may have believed in the lies she was feeding her clients, but that at the same time, she was also actively seeking more and more destructive power over these young women and over their families.

Speaker 25 And if she genuinely believed in and was concerned by this endemic sex abuse being covered up by the English upper middle class, then I can't make sense of why she aligned her own personal life so closely to that exact tiny world

Speaker 25 whilst encouraging her clients to cut all ties with it.

Speaker 25 Ultimately though, we can't have total clarity on why she did this.

Speaker 25 But what I do have clarity on is that the impact she had on her clients, in particular on Huey and Tori, is a world away from what trained therapists, coaches and counsellors would want for their clients.

Speaker 25 And that

Speaker 25 really is what matters.

Speaker 25 That and the fact that she was able to do harm and to keep doing harm. Because there will be others out there like Anne.

Speaker 25 with their own set of motivations, who are treating paying clients and have access to their minds without the knowledge or training of what to do with that privilege.

Speaker 25 When I spoke with Dr. Stein, she said that one of the problems is that we don't have any useful laws.
Huey's mum Sarah agrees and she's actually been campaigning for that to change.

Speaker 25 She's very clear that the way Anne behaved was coercive and controlling and there is legislation that covers that kind of behaviour.

Speaker 25 But as it stands, it only applies to relationships that are intimate or within families. So it's just not possible to apply that law to a relationship like Anne had with her clients.

Speaker 25 Sarah is not alone in thinking that the law around coercive control is too narrow. And she's got the support of some politicians to push for change, but it's been slow work.

Speaker 25 And even if there was an amendment to the law, there will always be loopholes.

Speaker 25 Arguably, a better way to start is to deal with a prevention rather than a cure.

Speaker 25 Because for Anne,

Speaker 25 and for other untrained, unregulated individuals doing harm under the guise of the title of healer, counsellor, therapist, analyst or self-development teacher,

Speaker 25 there is very, very little to stop them.

Speaker 25 The therapy and wellness industry is booming and like booming industries before it, it can be a wild west.

Speaker 25 in this case of people who are not qualified to be entrusted with our mental health.

Speaker 25 There is also a wealth of trained and regulated practitioners out there who are qualified and are trustworthy and who are there to help make our lives better.

Speaker 25 So be careful.

Speaker 25 Be careful who you choose to trust with your mind and your memories.

Speaker 25 Don't need

Speaker 25 I never wanna be a part

Speaker 25 of it

Speaker 25 tip the words right out of me

Speaker 25 over long

Speaker 25 She wouldn't stop screaming

Speaker 25 What would you like to come out of you telling your story?

Speaker 44 I'd really just want to be part of raising awareness around

Speaker 44 mind manipulation and

Speaker 44 to be part of raising awareness of what that looks like and for my children to know exactly what that looks like. If Anne is working with other people,

Speaker 44 that

Speaker 25 I just hope she's not working with other people

Speaker 44 but I think there's a there's a fear that maybe she is but I'm not on a mission to hurt Anne or ruin her life I'm just wanting to tell my truth so for me it's my anger towards

Speaker 44 towards Anne for not having proper training for

Speaker 44 believing that just because she broke down a company and put it back together, that she could do that with people and people's brains.

Speaker 44 And she didn't put me back together.

Speaker 44 Yeah, I'd really like to see change that people

Speaker 44 no longer have the power to work with people when they don't have the proper credentials to do so.

Speaker 25 That's my answer.

Speaker 25 If you'd like to get in touch with us about your own experience, you can send us an email. It's dangerousmemories at tortoesmedia.com.

Speaker 25 If you're looking to speak to a reputable therapist or know someone who is, you can search the Therapist Directory compiled by the British Association for Counselling and Psychotherapy, or BACP.

Speaker 25 Only registered members accredited by the Professional Standards Authority are listed, which ensures they meet high professional and ethical standards and are fully trained and qualified.

Speaker 25 Just go to bacp.co.uk

Speaker 25 Thank you for listening to Dangerous Memories.

Speaker 25 If you want to hear more of our investigations, you can listen to previous series right here on Tortoise Investigates.

Speaker 25 To hear more from Tortoise's award-winning newsroom, you can search for Tortoise wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 25 You can get early access and ad-free listening to all Tortoise shows by subscribing to Tortoise Plus or downloading the Tortoise app.

Speaker 25 Dangerous Memories was written and reported by me, Grace Ushalet, and by Gary Marshall. The producer is Gary Marshall.
Additional reporting and production from Imogen Harper.

Speaker 25 Fact-checking was by Xavia Greenwood. Sound design and original composition from Tom Kinsella.
The theme music is Far Gone, Don't Leave by Pictish Trail. Podcast artwork by Lola Williams.

Speaker 25 The commissioning editor was Basha Cummings. The executive producer was Kerry Thomas.

Speaker 25 Tortoise

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