Public enemy | Who Trolled Amber Ep 6

Transcript

Speaker 1 Hey friends, it's Nikayla from the podcast Side Hustle Pro.

Speaker 3 I'm always looking for ways to keep my kids entertained without screens, and the Yoto Mini has been a total lifesaver.

Speaker 5 My kids are obsessed.

Speaker 6 Yoto is a screen-free audio player where kids just pop in a card and listen.

Speaker 10 Hours of stories, music, podcasts, and more, and no screens or ads.

Speaker 11 With hundreds of options for ages 0 to 12, it's the perfect gift they'll go back to again and again.

Speaker 14 Check it out at yotoplay.com. Y-O-T-O-P-L-A-Y dot com.

Speaker 15 So good, so good, so good.

Speaker 16 Score holiday gifts everyone wants for way less at your Nordstrom Rack store. Save on UG, Nike, Ragnbone, Vince, Frame, Kurt Geiger London, and more.

Speaker 17 Because there's always something new.

Speaker 18 I'm giving all the gifts this year with that extra 5% off when I use my Nordstrom credit card. Santa who?

Speaker 16 Join the Nordy Club at Nordstrom Rack to unlock our best deals. It's easy.
Big gifts, big perks. That's why you rack.

Speaker 19 Hey, Ron Reynolds here, wishing you a very happy half-off holiday because right now, Mint Mobile is offering you the gift of 50% off unlimited. To be clear, that's half price, not half the service.

Speaker 19 Mint is still premium unlimited wireless for a great price.

Speaker 17 So that means a half day.

Speaker 19 Yeah? Give it a try at mintmobile.com/slash switch.

Speaker 21 Upfront payment for $45 for free-month plan, equivalent to $15 per month required. New customer offer for first three months only.
Speed flow under 35 gigabytes of network's busy.

Speaker 21 Taxes and fees extra.

Speaker 17 See MintMobile.com.

Speaker 17 Tortoise.

Speaker 17 Just a warning before we start. This series contains strong language and descriptions of violence.

Speaker 20 I wrote about the nuclear industry in France, EGF, RBNB, the green industry in Saudi Arabia.

Speaker 17 Meet Julian. He's a journalist, but not a normal one.

Speaker 20 I wrote under the pseudonym of Julian Fomenta-Rossa. Fomenta, it's the anagram of phantom, French, so ghost.
And Julien Rossa with a T, it's the anagram for journalist.

Speaker 20 So it's a phantom journalist, ghost journalist, which is what I did for six years.

Speaker 17 Julian has written hundreds of articles, not for a newspaper or a blogging site, but for a French PR firm.

Speaker 20 About the human rights in Qatar, presidential elections in many countries such as Gabon, Ivory Coast, Congo, Djibouti.

Speaker 17 The stories didn't look like puff pieces from a PR company. They read like genuine news articles.
And they were convincing enough to appear in major publications like the Huffington Post.

Speaker 17 But in each case, Julian's real identity was disguised.

Speaker 20 My stories were published under some different fake identities, such as lawyers, teachers, students, economists, what else, nurses, could be a professor, an engineer.

Speaker 17 Anyone reading Julian's work would think it was written by an expert, someone impartial or with real experience, when actually it was anything but.

Speaker 20 There was a fire in Flamondille, one of the French nuclear plants in Normandy.

Speaker 20 And just a few hours after the fire, then I was asked to write a story to say how safe the plants were.

Speaker 17 Julian's work lies in that grey area where PR, fake news and information manipulation all collide. Part of the same shady world that I think may have been used to target Amber Heard.

Speaker 17 The only reason we know about Julian's activities is that a few years ago he decided to get out of the the industry. He was worried about being caught and he was starting to lose grip on reality.

Speaker 20 I felt like I was leaving the Truffle Mansion show because I thought

Speaker 20 at any time my story and my work would be revealed.

Speaker 17 I wanted to speak to Julian to understand the world of misinformation better, how it wasn't just about bots and trolls, but about a whole ecosystem of misdirection and fake news.

Speaker 17 That was all interesting enough, but then he dropped the name of a company that rang a bell.

Speaker 20 I happened to write about Rusal and that was a story about the Ebola virus.

Speaker 17 Rusal is a Russian aluminium giant which was controlled by Oleg Derepasca, one of the country's most powerful oligarchs.

Speaker 17 Rusal has a huge mining presence in Guinea. When Ebola struck the West African country in 2014, the company helped to pay to vaccinate the population.

Speaker 17 For Rusal, this was a significant PR coup, and Julian was commissioned to make sure that everyone knew about it.

Speaker 20 I was then asked in the same story to make the reader think that Ebola was one of the worst pandemic ever.

Speaker 20 And we were very fortunate that some companies like Rusal were brave enough to make this endemic end.

Speaker 20 And at the end of the brief, I was asked like, NB,

Speaker 20 you need to make Roussel appear right after the headline.

Speaker 17 When he mentions Roussel, my ears prick up because I'd just been reading about a man who worked on behalf of Roussel.

Speaker 17 Someone who was paid to help promote the company's presence in Guinea and specifically worked on its Ebola initiative.

Speaker 17 Someone who might have had nothing to do with Julian or the company which employed him, but whose name seems to pop up whichever road this story takes me down. That name rings a bell, Alexi.
Wow.

Speaker 17 He's represented a number of very interesting and, in my view, controversial people.

Speaker 17 I'm talking about the man who many hold most responsible for trolling Amber.

Speaker 22 He attacked witnesses, he attacked us as the legal team, and personally, it was unlike anything I've seen from a professional counsel.

Speaker 17 Johnny Depp's lawyer, Adam Waldman. I'm Alexi Mostris and this is Who Trolled Amber, the final episode, Public Enemy.

Speaker 17 Almost everyone I've spoken to for this story has told me you've got to look at Adam Waldman. He's the key to all this.

Speaker 17 It didn't take me long to see what they were talking about. Since he first had dinner with Johnny Depp in 2016, Adam Waldman has upended the actor's life.

Speaker 17 It's almost like Johnny Depp had two periods, before Waldman and after Waldman.

Speaker 17 Before Waldman, the actor's strategy was generally to ignore criticism, to let his agents and managers sort things out behind the scenes.

Speaker 17 After Waldman, the strategy appeared to change, to attack, attack, attack.

Speaker 24 In January 2017, the same day Depp finalized his divorce from Amber Heard, he sued the management group or TMG for $25 million, alleging fraud, negligent misrepresentation, wrongful foreclosure, and a breach of fiduciary duty, e-news reported.

Speaker 17 Under Waldman's guidance, Depp sued his former lawyers and his former business managers.

Speaker 17 This was long before he sued Amber, and these earlier lawsuits went Depp's way. He won big.

Speaker 17 The attack strategy seemed to work, so it wasn't surprising that by the time Depp v. Heard came around, the gloves were off.

Speaker 17 Nothing wrong with an aggressive lawyer, you might think, except that in defending Depp, Waldman arguably went too far.

Speaker 17 In the UK defamation trial between Depp and the Sun, Waldman was told off by the judge for posting menacing tweets about Amber's witnesses.

Speaker 27 He was tweeting throughout the UK trial, tweeting his version of what was happening in court. I've never seen such aggressive and wholly inappropriate public commentary from a lawyer.

Speaker 17 The Sun's lawyers also accused him of preparing false witness statements and and manipulating evidence on Depp's behalf, allegations he denied. The Sun's QC said that Mr.

Speaker 17 Waldman was prepared to deploy threats and improper tactics to secure the objective of burning Ms. Heard and subjecting her to total global humiliation.

Speaker 17 A few months later, Waldman was thrown off the Depp v. Heard trial in the US.
A judge there found that he'd leaked confidential information to the press.

Speaker 17 Amber's lawyers accused him of being a publicity hound who was more interested in trolling their client than complying with court rules.

Speaker 23 Defendant Amber Heard brings this motion for sanctions against Adam Waldman for his repeated abuse of the discovery process, violation of the court's protective order and general conduct in this case.

Speaker 17 Adam Waldman doesn't behave like any lawyer I've encountered before.

Speaker 17 Who on earth is this guy?

Speaker 17 He advised them on mining operations in Guinea and Jamaica, on a Russian Ebola vaccine. He was earning a lot of money for doing all of this stuff.

Speaker 17 I'm in the office with my producer, Xavier. I want to see what else I can learn about Adam Waldman.
And I come across these online documents called Farah filings.

Speaker 17 Farah filings are legal papers which you have to file in the US if you work for a foreign agent. It turns out that Waldman had to file dozens of Farah papers,

Speaker 17 not not because of his work for DEP, but because of his relationship with a Russian oligarch.

Speaker 17 Oleg Derepaska. He works with him on animal welfare, Canadian energy policy, Chinese metal policy.
Oleg Derepaska is a super controversial figure. He's been sanctioned by the UK, Europe and the US.

Speaker 17 He's been accused of money laundering. threatening the lives of business rivals, illegally wiretapping a government official, and taking part in extortion and racketeering.

Speaker 17 He's even faced claims that he helped Russia interfere in the 2016 US election.

Speaker 25 Deripasca was one of seven oligarchs slapped with sanctions for, quote, malign activity around the globe. Three of his companies were also sanctified.

Speaker 17 As you might imagine, Deripaska denies everything.

Speaker 17 I hope that sooner or later people will recognize it's wrong.

Speaker 17 We'll try to assess the facts.

Speaker 17 If Adam Waldman was just Deripaska's lawyer, it would be a colourful detail, but maybe not too big a deal. Plenty of people have represented Deripasca through the years.

Speaker 17 But the Farah filings tell a different story. He offered Deripasca legal advice, but he also seems to have helped him with his PR and his press strategy.

Speaker 17 He offered commercial advice to his businesses. And for all this, he was earning $40,000 every month.

Speaker 17 In 2017, that amounted to more than five hundred and sixty thousand dollars wow you can see on one of the forms that waldman traveled to siberia amsterdam and moscow with deripasca and the filings say here uh that the purpose of the travel is marked as friendship not business so at one point at least they these guys were friends and if you this wasn't just a lawyer client relationship The documents paint a picture that looks far more pally than that.

Speaker 17 They've been pictured together more than once. Yeah, so if you look at this website, you can see that it's got pictures of Waldman next to Deripaska at this like Oktoberfest party.

Speaker 17 They're drinking beers together. They've got like their arms around each other.

Speaker 17 There's a Twitter account that shows Waldman posing with these dogs at a dog charity that I think Deripaska set up. So it seems like they were pretty close.

Speaker 17 You might think that Oleg Deripaska, a man accused of crimes like money laundering and extortion, was the most controversial Russian that Waldman worked for. But you'd be wrong.

Speaker 17 So look at this, right? Like

Speaker 17 Sergei Lavrov, Russia's foreign minister,

Speaker 17 basically Russia's mouthpiece abroad. Waldman registers as an agent for him too.
Sergei Lavrov is Russia's official mouthpiece abroad.

Speaker 17 This is Lavrov last year saying that it was Ukraine which started the war against Russia. You know, the war

Speaker 17 which

Speaker 17 we are trying to stop and which was launched against us using the Ukraine.

Speaker 17 The FARA filings make clear that Waldman worked for Lavrov in the Russian's official capacity as foreign minister.

Speaker 17 He was a counsel for Lavrov on political and legal matters as requested, as well as diplomatic matters. Working for Lavrov means he's working directly for Russia.

Speaker 17 Waldman's relationship with Lavrov continued for years, from 2010 until May 2017.

Speaker 17 Which means at the time Waldman started working for Depp, he was also working for Moscow.

Speaker 17 You might ask, what have Waldman's previous clients got to do with Depp v. Hurd?

Speaker 17 Well, for me, it's about showing that Waldman was willing to go beyond what you'd normally expect from a lawyer. He didn't just advise Deropaska, he became friends with him.

Speaker 17 And he kept working for Lavrov even after Russia had invaded Crimea in 2014 and even after the country had been accused of attempting to subvert US democracy.

Speaker 17 And that's not all, because Waldman also represented a third man, Julian Assange, the founder of Wikileaks. Taken in isolation, there's nothing wrong with that.

Speaker 17 But Waldman was Assange's lawyer at the same time as he was representing the Russian state.

Speaker 17 And that's interesting given Assange's history with Russia.

Speaker 28 Intelligence and administration officials tell CBS News they're confident the Russian government is behind the D and also denied knowing who is responsible.

Speaker 25 But he's put out a new campaign ad arguing the Wikileaks emails provide a window into what he calls Clinton corruption.

Speaker 17 Assange has always denied that Russia leaked him the emails.

Speaker 17 Our Our source is not the Russian government and it is not a state party.

Speaker 17 What did this mean? Was I stumbling onto a bigger story? I thought that Peter Pomerantsev might be able to help. He's an expert on Russian propaganda.

Speaker 30 Disinformation campaigns were always a large part of the Russian states.

Speaker 30 They already had a rich tradition of coordinated disinformation campaigns from old media, and then they work out you can use it with digital media.

Speaker 30 They start off with using it domestically against domestic opposition. Troll farms start coming for the domestic opposition first, and then they start rolling it out abroad and across the world.

Speaker 30 And again, I don't think there's any one trick that they have come up with, but what they've done is institutionalize it as a tool of foreign policy. And I think they were the first to do that.

Speaker 17 Peter had never heard of Adam Waldman, but he knows a lot about the people Waldman associated with.

Speaker 30 I think you've discovered something that nobody else has really clocked. This really rather unheard unheard of character who seems to be,

Speaker 30 we don't know if he's at the center of the web or the side of the web, but part of a very, very, very

Speaker 30 malign, let's be frank, web of characters who played a very active role in subverting Western democracies and furthering Russia's aims.

Speaker 17 What started out as a celebrity courtroom drama has morphed in my mind to something bigger, more convoluted.

Speaker 17 A kind of shadow world of disinformation where companies, celebrities and countries like Russia all overlap.

Speaker 17 It's hard to work out how all these strands fit together, but Adam Waldman's name keeps coming up.

Speaker 16 Just in, thousands of winter arrivals at your Nordstrom rack store. Save up to 70% on coats, slippers, and cashmere from Cape Spade, New York, Vince, Ugg, Levi's, and more.

Speaker 21 Check out these boots.

Speaker 17 They've got the best gifts.

Speaker 15 My holiday shopping hack, join the Nordy Club.

Speaker 16 Get an extra 5% off every rack purchase with your Nordstrom credit card. Plus, buy it online and pick it up in store the same day for free.

Speaker 5 My kids are obsessed. Yoto is a screen-free audio player where kids just pop in a card and listen.

Speaker 14 Check it out at yotoplay.com, y-o-t-o-p-l-a-y.com.

Speaker 19 Hey, Ryan Reynolds here, wishing you a very happy half-off holiday because right now, Mint Mobile is offering you the gift of 50% off unlimited. To be clear, that's half price, not half the service.

Speaker 19 Mint is still premium unlimited wireless for a great price.

Speaker 21 So that means a half day.

Speaker 19 Yeah? Give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch.

Speaker 21 Upfront payment of $45 for a three-month plan equivalent to $15 per month required. New customer offer for first three months only.
Speed slow under 35 gigabytes of network's busy.

Speaker 21 Taxes and fees extra.

Speaker 17 See me at mobile.com.

Speaker 15 Your Honor, our next witness is Adam Waldman.

Speaker 24 What is your current occupation?

Speaker 32 Attorney. I'm also involved with a skincare company in a variety of capacities.

Speaker 17 I want to speak to Adam Waldman directly. I have a lot of questions.
But before I call him, I bring up a video of the deposition he gave in the Depp v. Herd trial.

Speaker 17 On tape, he looks smart in a white shirt and blue tie. But what he says isn't exactly revelatory.

Speaker 9 And what is your role in this case as counsel for Mr.

Speaker 29 Depp?

Speaker 31 Objection, and I would instruct the witness not to answer that question.

Speaker 17 Okay, I'll follow the instruction. Waldman is advised that he doesn't have to answer any question which could reveal any legal advice he's ever given Depp.

Speaker 31 That's the same question that I instructed Mr. Waldman not to answer before, just stated in a slightly different way, so I would instruct the witness witness not to answer that question.

Speaker 32 I accept the instruction.

Speaker 17 In total, he refuses to answer more than 70 questions. But there are some questions that he can't avoid because they're not covered by legal privilege.

Speaker 17 And it's one of these exchanges that really stops me in my tracks.

Speaker 33 Have you provided information about this case to other social media personalities who then post that information?

Speaker 32 I've provided information episodically to

Speaker 32 what I would call internet journalists.

Speaker 33 Have you communicated with a social media user who goes by the name that umbrella guy?

Speaker 32 I've had several phone calls with the person who goes by the name that umbrella guy. I don't actually know his real name.

Speaker 33 Have you communicated in a similar fashion with someone on social media who goes by the name that Brian fella?

Speaker 34 Yes.

Speaker 17 Waldman reveals that he's directly communicated not just with the press, but with two YouTubers.

Speaker 17 A man called Matthew Lewis, who goes by the name That Umbrella Guy, and Brian McPherson, commonly known as That Brianfella. Waldman calls them internet journalists.

Speaker 17 And look, I'm not a snob about this. Some of the best journalists today don't work for mainstream media.
Look at Bellingcat, for instance. But journalists should at least try and be objective.

Speaker 5 She's got those psycho eyes.

Speaker 17 She looks crazy. And these YouTubers are not that.
They're more like professional trolls. I wasn't afraid of him stabbing me then.

Speaker 17 Like, what? She's a nut. She's hurting and trying to kill you.
I don't know.

Speaker 17 She does have the right name, Ter.

Speaker 17 That umbrella guy, who's also known as Tug, started out on YouTube eight years ago reviewing household appliances.

Speaker 17 Today, I want to briefly consider this water sprinkler unit, and the reason I want to do so is twofold.

Speaker 17 But he soon discovered that making content trashing Amber Heard was much more popular and profitable. Hey Baird, all you wonderful folks, welcome to another week of craziness.
Today.

Speaker 17 Tug has posted literally hundreds of videos about Amber Heard. His channel has racked up 140 million views.
His worst comments about Amber are in videos that are now private.

Speaker 17 But I've downloaded the transcripts and used AI to voice some of them up. Amber, your lips are gross.
I don't know where they've been. Look at how gross her skin is, like meaty and sweaty.

Speaker 17 She looks like she's got the meat sweats. Turning himself into a full-time Amber Herd troll has made Tug a lot of money.
Nikki C, thanks for the five. Dude McGuire, thanks for the 20.

Speaker 17 Karina, thanks for the 20 there. Appreciate that.
Thanks. We worked out that he earned £65,000

Speaker 17 or about $82,000 during the trial from YouTube tips alone.

Speaker 17 And that doesn't include advertising revenue or sales of merchandise. He even boasted that Amber had paid for his house and his kids' college fund.

Speaker 17 If that umbrella guy were a lone wolf, I might not have paid him that much attention. Lots of YouTubers said the same about Amber, or worse.

Speaker 17 But Tug was one of only a handful who spoke directly with Adam Waldman.

Speaker 17 And Tug didn't just speak to Waldman. The YouTuber implies that Waldman passed him information as well.

Speaker 17 Tugg posted videos containing material that no one else had, including two witness statements which had not yet been made public. Exclusively came from myself, by the way.

Speaker 17 Let's just say it sourced its way to me.

Speaker 17 This inside track helped Tugg's videos become a big part of how Amber came to be seen online.

Speaker 34 There was actually a huge narrative priming that occurred before the trial even began, where from the outset, the entire idea and the entire conception was that Amber Heard was an abuser, that she was not credible, and that she was just basically bad in every sense of the word.

Speaker 17 That's Kat Tenbarge. She works for NBC and is kind of a bete noir for Depp fans.

Speaker 17 While other reporters were focused on the day-to-day of the US trial, Kat was more interested in what was going on online with people like that umbrella guy.

Speaker 17 She thinks that they were part of a deliberate strategy.

Speaker 34 The moment that Adam Waldman testified, he really opened the floodgates for all of these influencers and creators to revel in the fact that they had this type of close communication with Team Dev.

Speaker 17 Kat tried to interview Tug, but instead of just saying no, he screenshotted her email and tweeted it out to his followers.

Speaker 34 As soon as he did that, it was instantaneous.

Speaker 34 I received DMs on Twitter that basically said, we know where you live, we know where you are, and we're going to come find you and we're going to hurt you.

Speaker 17 He did the same to me just a couple of days before I recorded this. I sent him an email asking about his links to Adam Waldman.

Speaker 17 He posted my list of questions online and then made a video with another YouTuber. Alexi, yeah, Alexi.

Speaker 17 Alexi. Though what's funny is, like, I looked at his name, and the first thing I thought was Alexi Moistress.
That's what I thought his name was.

Speaker 17 Oh, yeah. Jokes about my name.
It feels like I'm back at school. Let's see.
What's the second question here? Substantial amount of money covering Miss Heard and Mr. Depp.

Speaker 17 Advertising. Tips from supporters.
Oh, give me them tips, bro. the tip.
Are you ashamed of saying things like,

Speaker 17 she's got to be the biggest piece of crap now? She doesn't have the right name, Turd.

Speaker 17 You know,

Speaker 17 or she's got those psycho eyes. She looks crazy.
She's a salad.

Speaker 17 If Tug represents one sort of anti-amber herd troll, loud, misogynistic, and crude, then that Brian fella, the other YouTuber who talked to Adam Waldman, represents something else.

Speaker 17 Hey, everyone, thanks for checking out my video. I really appreciate it.
I've put a lot of work into this, even if it doesn't show.

Speaker 17 On the 14th of November 2018, Brian McPherson, a little-known actor, posts a 35-minute video on YouTube.

Speaker 17 My attempt here is to stick to facts and not rumors.

Speaker 17 The video raises questions about one of Amber's friends and his evidence against Johnny Depp.

Speaker 17 I don't know his motivations. All I know is I believe he did lie.

Speaker 17 McPherson's video is forensic. It seems to be the work of someone who really knows their their way around the case, and viewers are impressed.

Speaker 17 In this first video, McPherson works with information that's already out there, already in the public domain. But in January 2020, all that changes.

Speaker 35 Hey everyone, welcome back. Just a couple of minutes of your time for the intro.

Speaker 35 This video is probably not what you expected in terms of what I promised my next one would be, but I believe it needed to be made and it also needs to be seen and heard by as many people as I can possibly.

Speaker 17 This video is different. It's a recording of a private conversation between Johnny Depp and Amber Heard,

Speaker 17 a real exclusive.

Speaker 17 Just before McPherson posts his video, the Mail Online news website publishes a two-minute snippet of it.

Speaker 17 But this obscure YouTuber seems to get hold of the whole thing.

Speaker 35 I think what you're about to watch or or listen to is the single biggest and most damning piece of evidence yet.

Speaker 17 In the recording, Amber tells Depp, I can't promise you I won't get physical again. I can't promise I won't get physical again.

Speaker 17 For Depp fans, this is the proof they've been waiting for, that he is the real victim. And I should say it is something that pulls you up short.
Amber appears to admit hitting Depp across the face.

Speaker 17 It's quite a shocking admission. When she appeared on the stand, Amber explained that she sometimes hit Depp in self-defense.

Speaker 17 But I have to repeat, I'm not trying to re-litigate the case.

Speaker 17 The fact is that a British judge found that Depp had abused Amber on a dozen occasions and that, quote, no great weight was to be put on Amber's alleged admissions.

Speaker 17 A US jury reached a different conclusion.

Speaker 17 McPherson's video gets 6 million views on YouTube, and many more millions see his content on other sites. It has a huge impact on how Amber is seen online.
But here's the thing. It was manipulated.

Speaker 17 Let me play you a bit of McPherson's recording.

Speaker 37 If things get physical,

Speaker 37 we have to separate.

Speaker 37 We have to be apart from one another. Whether it's for fucking an hour or ten hours or fucking a day.

Speaker 17 We must.

Speaker 37 There can be no physical violence.

Speaker 36 I can't promise you that I'll be perfect.

Speaker 29 I can't promise you I won't get physical gay.

Speaker 17 Pretty damning right. And Amber did say those words.
It's the truth, but it's not the whole truth. Because between Depp's line...

Speaker 17 And Amber's line.

Speaker 29 I can't promise you I won't get physical gay.

Speaker 17 There's seven minutes of tape missing. We know this because a full version was released during the UK trial.
In reality, this is how Amber responds to Depp.

Speaker 38 I agree about the physical violence.

Speaker 17 I agree about the physical violence. But McPherson cuts that critical line.

Speaker 17 In his version, it seems like Depp is pleading for the violence to end, and Amber is saying as a direct reply, I can't promise it won't. There's something else too.
Depp's words themselves are edited.

Speaker 17 He doesn't just say there can be no physical violence. There are three words missing.

Speaker 38 Treat about the physical violence.

Speaker 17 There can be no physical violence towards each other. So now listen to the two versions side by side.
This is Macpherson's video.

Speaker 29 I can't promise you I won't get physical again.

Speaker 17 Whereas this is is the real exchange.

Speaker 17 Somewhere along the way, this very sensitive piece of evidence was altered in favor of Depp.

Speaker 34 People never figured out that these were acts of disinformation. They just took them at face value and they shared them and they reacted to them.

Speaker 17 That's not the only time it happens. A few months later, McPherson publishes audio of the aftermath of a fight between Depp and Heard.
It's another exclusive.

Speaker 17 The original recording is over five hours, but McPherson has slimmed it down. He says he's only made cosmetic changes.

Speaker 35 I've cut it down from hours of white noise, no noise, cleaning sounds and non-speaking to get a much cleaner product.

Speaker 17 But again, this is not the case. The audio is missing lines that later appear in court documents.

Speaker 34 The audio that was leaked to Brian McPherson and that was disseminated across the internet was essential to people's understanding of the case.

Speaker 17 Brian Fella's videos changed my mind.

Speaker 4 You were what changed my mind about JD when I heard the recording.

Speaker 16 Absolutely Brian who changed my mind.

Speaker 17 McPherson clearly left a good impression on Johnny Depp. When Depp created an Instagram account in 2020, McPherson was was one of the first people he followed.

Speaker 17 Brian McPherson didn't respond to our requests for comment, but it's Adam Waldman who I really want to speak to.

Speaker 17 I have so many questions about why he appears in a quarter of all the anti-AMBA Heard tweets in Ron Schnell's database.

Speaker 17 about what evidence he passed to two YouTubers who played a big role in turning the internet against Amber,

Speaker 17 and about what work he did for Oleg Derepaska and Sergei Lavrov.

Speaker 17 He hasn't answered any of my emails, so I give him a call.

Speaker 17 This is Adam Walden, please get a message.

Speaker 17 Oh, hi, Mr. Walman.
This is Alexei Mostris from Tortoise Media. I'm trying to reach you because he doesn't pick up, but 25 minutes after I call, he posts a Twitter message.

Speaker 17 It quotes public enemy, the 80s rap pioneers. False media, their pens and pads I'll snatch.
Cause I've had it. I'm not an addict.
Fiending for static. I'll see their tape recorder and grab it.

Speaker 17 No, you can't have it back, silly rabbit.

Speaker 16 Just in thousands of winter arrivals at your Nordstrom rack store. Save up to 70% on coats, slippers, and cashmere from Cape Spade, New York, Vince, Ugg, Levi's, and more.

Speaker 21 Check out these boots.

Speaker 17 They've got the best gifts. My holiday shopping hack, join the Nordy Club.

Speaker 16 Get an extra 5% off every rack purchase with your Nordstrom credit card. Plus, buy it online and pick it up in store the same day for free.

Speaker 1 Hey, friends, it's Nikayla from the podcast Side Hustle Pro.

Speaker 5 My kids are obsessed. Yoto is a screen-free audio player where kids just pop in a card and listen.

Speaker 14 Check it out at yotoplay.com. Y-O-T-O-P-L-A-Y.com.

Speaker 17 Waldman is one of the most fascinating characters I've come across. He remains threaded into this story in a way that I can't quite untangle.

Speaker 17 On the one hand, he's this high-powered, obviously intelligent lawyer. a guy who's represented celebrities, oligarchs, really extraordinary figures.

Speaker 17 On the other other hand, when it comes to the internet, he's happy to behave as if he's another YouTuber attacking Amber Heard.

Speaker 17 Just after I contact him, Waldman does what that umbrella guy did. He posts my questions online.
Less like a lawyer, more like a troll.

Speaker 17 Towards the end of this investigation, I got in touch with Amber Heard. She didn't want to speak on the record, so I can't tell you what she said.

Speaker 17 I get the impression she's trying to get on with her life. But in a way, this podcast has never just been about Amber.

Speaker 17 It's about how online trolling can not only have devastating effects on a victim, but can create ripples that go far wider.

Speaker 15 And certainly the verdict in the US trial

Speaker 15 I do feel affected my day-to-day approach to the work that I've done in terms of industry misconduct.

Speaker 17 This trial. Maureen Ryan is a writer for Vanity Fair.

Speaker 17 She's been at the forefront of reporting on the Me Too movement for years.

Speaker 17 For her, Depp's victory gave Hollywood an excuse to backtrack on hard-won reforms.

Speaker 15 As a woman who's been online for 30 years, sometimes

Speaker 15 they just want to take a woman down many pegs and

Speaker 15 they don't need much of an excuse to do it. A lot of people

Speaker 15 went nuts with that opportunity. The thing about the Johnny Depp, Amber Heard case, in particular, that

Speaker 15 chilled me to my soul, frankly, was the idea that,

Speaker 15 you know, Amber Heard wrote an op-ed for the Washington Post, which is a very respected publication. And Johnny Depp's name isn't in it.

Speaker 17 Maureen's right. Amber never named Johnny Depp in her piece for the Washington Post, and she still ended up losing a defamation case.

Speaker 15 It told survivors of industry misconduct.

Speaker 15 If this can be done to a woman who's actually a well-known, well-established person in the industry,

Speaker 15 it's going to be even worse for you.

Speaker 17 You can see how that would deter other women from speaking out.

Speaker 17 You don't have to talk about it if you don't want to, but I was interested in the variety piece that you wrote about sexual assault and your own own experiences in sexual assault.

Speaker 17 Do you mind just telling me a bit about that?

Speaker 15 Thank you for asking. I'm okay to talk about it.
So, in late 2017,

Speaker 15 I wrote about something that only my close friends and family knew about at the time, which was that I

Speaker 15 was assaulted by a television executive in 2014.

Speaker 15 And I wrote a piece about my own experience, and

Speaker 15 I didn't name

Speaker 15 the person who did it. And to this day, I haven't named that person.
And Amber Heard didn't choose that path.

Speaker 15 And,

Speaker 15 you know,

Speaker 15 I really applauded her piece at the time because talking about

Speaker 15 incidents of assault and abuse that you've experienced is really difficult.

Speaker 17 I suppose that

Speaker 17 you wrote about

Speaker 17 your assault

Speaker 17 without naming the perpetrator

Speaker 17 and then some years later amber heard wrote her claimed assault without naming the perpetrator she got sued

Speaker 17 even though she didn't name the perpetrator and i wonder if that had happened before

Speaker 17 you rather than after you whether you would have written the piece that you did

Speaker 15 Yeah, I never thought about that before.

Speaker 15 I think I wouldn't have written it.

Speaker 15 I don't know that I would have been able to handle that psychologically.

Speaker 15 This idea that even if I did not name the person who did this to me, that I could still be in danger.

Speaker 15 There are some times I wish I had named him.

Speaker 15 It really haunted me

Speaker 15 because I I really, I've devoted the last seven years of my life to trying to prevent.

Speaker 15 I'm sorry.

Speaker 15 I don't want what happened to me to happen to anyone else.

Speaker 15 I knew that in that moment, in late 2017, I could not name that person.

Speaker 15 I have still not named that person publicly.

Speaker 15 And

Speaker 15 for a long time, I thought about whether that was the right decision. But in the light of the depp versus heard,

Speaker 15 I'm even more certain that that was the right decision.

Speaker 17 My favorite Agatha Christie book is Murder on the Orient Express. A few years ago, Johnny Depp starred in the movie version directed by Kenneth Brenner.

Speaker 17 The story is the ultimate who done it.

Speaker 17 A man called Lanfranco Cassetti is killed in a train carriage and detective Urkule Prarot investigates his murder. Everyone in the carriage is a suspect.
But here's the spoiler. They all did it.

Speaker 17 They all had their own motive.

Speaker 17 When it comes to who trolled Amber, the answer, I think, is the same.

Speaker 17 There were the real-life depth fans, the online misogynists, grifters who thought they could make a quick buck, and critically, our evidence suggests, thousands and thousands of bots and trolls from Thailand to Spain, from Chile to Saudi Arabia.

Speaker 17 A seemingly global campaign. All of these forces came together to attack Amber Heard online.
Some, like Adam Waldman, did more than others. But, like on the Orient Express, everyone played a part.

Speaker 17 This year is the biggest election year in history. Billions of people will go to the polls, in India, in the UK, and most importantly, perhaps, in the US.

Speaker 17 Over 50 countries will hold votes in 2024. It feels like democracy itself is on the line.
And hovering over all of this, like a ghost at the feast, is the specter of disinformation.

Speaker 17 For me, Depp VHERD is a warning. Because if a famous actress can be trolled online, in a widespread and inauthentic way, Then what happens when the stakes are even higher?

Speaker 17 It's one thing to confuse a bot with a real-life Johnny Depp fan,

Speaker 17 but what if it's impossible to tell the difference between a Russian troll and a US election official?

Speaker 17 If we can no longer separate what's fake from what's real online, then the question we're all left with is this:

Speaker 17 How can we ever trust our own opinions again?

Speaker 17 We contacted Johnny Depp while making this podcast, but he didn't respond. Thank you for listening to Who Trolled Amber.

Speaker 17 Who Trolled Amber is written and reported by me, Alexei Mostris, and by Xavia Greenwood. The producer is Xavier Greenwood.
Additional reporting by Katie Riley. Sound design is by Carla Patella.

Speaker 17 The narrative editor is Gary Marshall. The editor is David Taylor.

Speaker 26 Take control of the numbers and supercharge your small business with zero. That's XERO.

Speaker 26 With our easy-to-use accounting software with automation and reporting features, you'll spend less time on manual tasks and more time understanding how your business is doing. 87% of surveyed U.S.

Speaker 26 customers agree Xero helps improve financial visibility. Search Xero with an X or visit zero.com slash ACAST to start your 30-day free trial.
Conditions apply.

Speaker 5 My kids are obsessed.

Speaker 6 Yoto is a screen-free audio player where kids just pop in a card and listen.

Speaker 14 Check it out at yotoplay.com. Y-O-T-O-P-L-A-Y.com.

Speaker 28 Hi, it's Paige DeSorbo from Giggly Squad. You ever stand in front of your closet and just say, I have nothing to wear while you're literally surrounded by clothes? Because same.

Speaker 28 So I started listing pieces I'm over on Depop and honestly it's been amazing. You can sell what you're done with and someone out there will love it.

Speaker 28 And the best part about it is there's no seller fee so the money you make actually stays in your pocket which feels very chic. It's also insanely easy.

Speaker 28 I listed something while watching TV and it sold before the episode even ended. So download the Depop app and list your first item today because your old outfit could be someone else's new favorite.

Speaker 28 Depop, where taste recognizes taste. Payment processing fees, boosting fees still apply.
For more info, visit dpop.com. Hi, it's Paige DeSorbo from Giggly Squad.

Speaker 28 You ever stand in front of your closet and just say, I have nothing to wear while you're literally surrounded by clothes? Because same.

Speaker 28 So I started listing pieces I'm over on Depop, and honestly, it's been amazing. You can sell what you're done with, and someone out there will love it.

Speaker 28 And the best part about it is there's no seller fee, so the money you make actually stays in your pocket, which feels very chic. It's also insanely insanely easy.

Speaker 28 I listed something while watching TV, and it sold before the episode even ended. So download the Depop app and list your first item today, because your old outfit could be someone else's new favorite.

Speaker 28 Depop, where taste recognizes taste. Payment processing fees, boosting fees still apply.
For more info, visit dpop.com.