Master Focus: The Key to Entrepreneurial Success | Kass & Mike Lazerow DSH #1403

You do something over and over and over again.

Good things happen.

Find something that you're good at and do it again and again and again.

Yeah, it's rare that your passion will make the money that you need to afford your life.

Keep the passion, but figure out what your talents are and then surround yourself with people who fill in the gaps and then supplement your life with the things you love.

All right, guys, we got Cass and Mike here in Las Vegas.

Thanks Thanks for having us.

Yeah, let's do this, dude.

You guys have accomplished a lot.

Let's go.

You've been working together for 28 years.

Yes.

You have to remind us.

Yeah.

Well done, though.

That's very hard to do while you're dating or now married.

We love each other and we like each other.

So we laugh a lot and we fight well.

We get over our arguments.

We don't take anything personally.

I think that really helps in our personal side of things, but like at work, like we're just like, hey, I didn't like that.

Or like, you got to do this better.

Or why didn't you do this?

And we've taken that home, which has really been effective.

Tess is very aggressive.

So are you?

I'm not passive-aggressive.

What he's saying is I'm aggressive aggressive.

I appreciate it.

You're more direct.

Uh-huh.

Yeah.

You need that.

Yeah.

Everyone needs it.

Just communicate.

Yeah.

Communication is important.

How do you not let the business bleed over into the personal, though?

That's super aggressive to me.

Well, it's hard sometimes.

I think our love language is work, right?

Like, if you look at our book, it's basically our love story while it's also a love story to all entrepreneurs.

And we met, we were dating while we were working.

We started our first company while we were dating.

And we both, I think, have the same values and work ethic.

And that's our love language.

Yeah, because a lot of people say not to mix it too.

I know.

I just think if you can't work with people you love, who do you work with?

People you hate.

like people you can't stand but you can't have overlapping skills that's the that's a key here well we don't but

we don't think, we think that if you have, are in different lanes, it's much better than if we overlap.

And we're in very different lanes.

That's true.

Cause sometimes you'll work with a close friend, you have similar skill sets, and then you guys just.

Well, you fight or you have like paralysis of decisions.

You can't, you can't do anything because you're both micromanaging the process or you both want your input heard as opposed to like clear divisions, which is what Mike and I have.

We just know each other and we know who has the expertise in that lane.

And I was talking to Mike out there.

It seems like you guys are grinding as much as you had in the past.

It's working harder than we've ever worked.

We love it.

We love it.

Yeah, because you guys had, you know, $750 million exit and no slowing down.

No, no, no, no.

It's a lot easier now because our kids are older and we're healthier.

At the end of Buddy Media, which we sold, you know, to Salesforce.

for close to a billion dollars, we weren't very healthy.

I weighed 40 pounds more.

I was not the best version of myself.

We are with older kids, we're able to kind of focus on ourself a little more, which is hard for entrepreneurs, as you know.

I mean, look at how you're hustling.

I'm getting more picky on what I say no to.

Yeah.

Because I'm getting so many opportunities now.

But if I said yes to all of them, I wouldn't, I'd be too distracted, I think.

It's one of the key cheat codes from the book is focus.

Yeah.

Like focus, use how to use it as a superpower.

And the entrepreneurs who focus, who know how to say no and know what to say yes to, can do whatever they want.

Most entrepreneurs can do anything they want.

They just can't do everything.

Would you guys say focus was the biggest skill early on that

definitely when we started.

I think, you know, we decided our last company,

we had a business model that changed three times.

We pivoted three times.

So when you do lots of pivots and you're trying to find that like customer feedback that works.

you have to focus, right?

Because it's easy to say, well, maybe they would have liked this or maybe they would like that like you you have to go for it and really good entrepreneurs they look at like a failed product launch as getting one step closer to like figuring things out so um

you got to focus that's the number one thing i know that's mike's number one cheat by far by far and these days that's a hard skill to have yes yeah it's hard but if you focus on the right things you can literally do anything and i i reminds me of when facebook went public they didn't have a mobile strategy once they focused on it, the rest is history, right?

And so it's not only what are you focused on, but should you be focused on anything else that is more important?

And oftentimes you're tripped up by stuff that you didn't focus on that you should have.

And so focus as, you know, we've made over 100 investments into other entrepreneurs and we support them every day.

And

the question I ask every time is, what are your top three priorities?

And if they don't know it, they're fucked.

Damn.

Yeah.

If they don't know it, then their organization doesn't know it.

Their investors don't know it.

The market.

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It's the only bottle that also structures your water and adds red light to supercharge it it's sleek portable and honestly i don't go anywhere without it doesn't know it but if an entrepreneur is like you know we've got to sell gotta build product gotta service it with excellence gotta build you know culture that scales like then you're like oh this person has their stuff together yeah because a lot of people focus on the wrong things right in business especially Or they don't focus at all.

Like we're in a world where you could do anything, like, and you've inbound through like...

Scope creep.

I mean, you know, all these entrepreneurs, everything's cool.

Everything's the newest thing.

And they can't really draw a circle around what is it that they're going to build, right?

Or what is it that they're trying to come up with?

But focus is the thing.

They have to.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I've never struggled with focus and work ethic.

And a lot of people are like way smarter than me, but I feel like those two skills are what got me to a pretty good level.

I am definitely not the smartest in the room, but I can outwork.

anyone.

Cass is smarter.

Wait, wait, wait.

You can't outwork me.

You cannot outwork me.

I love it.

You cannot.

I used to be able to.

I don't work.

You lost a step.

I did.

But Cass is, yeah, Cass is a monster.

That's good.

You guys compliment each other well.

Yes, very well.

I'm in a similar relationship.

My soon-to-be-wife is way smarter than me.

There you go.

It is.

That's the way to do it, man.

Punch up.

You're really smart.

You got to punch up.

Yeah.

No, it keeps me grounded.

It keeps me.

She keeps good people around me.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I always love smart women.

None of them liked me before that

was the problem um but yeah smart strong women nothing better yeah i'm a sapiosexual actually do you know what that is i have heard of it but i uh cannot tell you what it is i'm a basically it's uh if you're attracted to intelligence yeah so in friendships and in dating yeah i love that i am that's my number one quality like that goes comes before looks it comes before everything else i love that Maybe that's what you are also.

It definitely wasn't the look.

It wasn't the cross eyes.

It was definitely the mind.

It was definitely the mind i like that yeah i think yeah look into that man you might need a little diagnosis on that yeah that's good therapy so you guys have invested in over 100 companies you said yeah that's insane is it still actively going on right now yes for sure we're addicted to entrepreneurs and entrepreneurship and companies and going from zero to one and then one to a hundred um not all of them go from one to a hundred some of them die but we think there's nothing more exciting it's our sport yeah and there's beauty in the struggle right j cole said it Our son, actually, our oldest son has this tattoo, you know, beauty in the struggle.

And there's nothing more we'd rather do and there's nothing more miserable than being an entrepreneur because, you know, all the shit that's thrown, you know, you know what it's like your way every single day.

There's no perfect day.

I don't think we've ever met an entrepreneur who's like, yeah, this is easy.

You're telling me.

Or, oh, I have enough sleep and I work out every day and everything's great.

My kids are happy.

I'm totally thriving.

That's not what entrepreneurs Brought to you by amnesia vodka, crafted to leave an impression.

Say, and they love it.

Yeah, you got two extremes.

I just measured my stress levels yesterday and they were off the charts.

Would you do cortisol measurement?

It was a crazy test.

He's coming on after you guys if you want to do it.

Basically, you speak into his computer and it measures everything.

Like technology and AI is just so interesting to me.

How that's incredible.

Yeah, it's insane.

I'm sure my cortisol levels are always high.

Yeah, my adrenals were high and everything, all from my voice.

Like, he knew every single organ that was having an issue.

That's crazy.

Crazy.

That's what I'm excited about.

I'm interested to see if you could do that and then overlay it to like pernuvo where you get.

I took a pernuvo right and then like do full body scan and then blood work.

And then

so I did all these tests.

I put it into Chat GBT and asked for like a plan on how to fix all my issues within three seconds.

Yeah, that's the best.

I mean, before you had to go to five doctors in person, you would say no.

Yeah, they would give you Western medicine.

That's all whatever you're doing.

You look great.

Thank you.

You guys too, though.

Thank you.

Sure.

For 28 years of hard work.

Yeah.

For 51 years on this earth.

She's a little older, so she had a few years.

54.

Okay.

Yeah.

Let's go.

It's just a fact.

It's on

editorial level.

Whatever.

What percentage are you guys shooting out of those hundred investments?

Because you hear these crazy stats with VCs, one out of every 10 or whatever.

So we don't believe in that.

We believe like everything we do, we want to do well.

And we don't assume some are going out of business.

Having said that, you know, we've had out of those hundred, about 35 exits,

there are about 10 of them that are transformative.

Those are companies like Scopely, which we seeded, which sold for $5 billion and companies that haven't exited.

We were the seed investor in Liquid Death, seed investor in a lot of the companies that

many of your listeners, viewers have heard of.

And the reason is we are not just typical VCs.

We're entrepreneurs.

We roll up our sleeves.

That's right.

We say to all the entrepreneurs, give us one thing to do and we'll do it.

And we're done.

Give us another thing.

And that's how we win the love of entrepreneurs and deal flow.

Well done.

Those are impressive stats, man.

I mean, the winners are awesome.

And the good news, I'm not a math major.

Okay.

I just want to get that out there right now.

I went to journalism school, but you can only lose one time

your money.

So if we invest a million dollars, we can only lose a million,

but you can make like a thousand times that, right, on the upside.

So I just love the math of like the winners are so much more powerful.

And if you're good, meaning pick the right entrepreneurs in the right markets with differentiated products, then big can be really big.

And we've seen it.

We've have investments where the founders became billionaires, which we love.

Damn.

That is crazy.

And there's nothing better to see like entrepreneurs like busting their ass for 10 years

and just reap the rewards american dream right yeah

yeah global dream i mean it's everyone in the world oh so you guys are investing everywhere oh yeah we do but like every i mean entrepreneurship is like a global sport now yeah like you go to asia europe anywhere um we were in africa in december like you know everyone wants to start businesses that's cool and do you guys target certain markets depending on the trends like ai right now or anything or you kind of go by the founders i mean i go by the founders so i i bet on the jockeys right?

So, you know, Mike gets a ton of deal flow.

We're known as investors who actually roll up their sleeves and do the work and actually like execute what we're saying that we will do.

There's a lot of investors out there who say they're going to help and then don't do anything.

And when Mike throws a deal over, it means that the market's right, the product's differentiated.

He knows how to, how it's going to be going to market.

It's how it's going to be delivered.

And it makes sense like on the back of a napkin, like the unit economics.

So by the time it gets to me, I'm looking to see if the founders are the right ones.

Can they actually scale?

Do they know what they don't know?

That's like the biggest thing.

And do they know how to like form a leadership team around them that fills in all their gaps?

So I bet on jockeys.

Yeah, the team is everything, right?

I bet on races.

She bets on jockeys.

Well, everyone's kind of like, you bet on the horse or the jockey, jockey right

and i think the companies that have done well are in the right race right so it's about like and the race meaning like how big is the market like if you want to win a million bucks like you're not going to enter a horse into a tiny race you're going to go after the kentucky derby right and so a big part of what we do is just huge markets people are like how did you know liquid death was going to be big The answer is we didn't know, right?

Like that's a company that really caught lightning in the bottle because Mike Cesar.

I hope you guys are enjoying the show please don't forget to like and subscribe it helps the show a lot with the algorithm thank you

such a good marketer but what we did know was that water was the building block of life and the largest non-ALC market right right like water here we're drinking water right you need water and we're in a world where kids aren't drinking like they used to that's right um

and so for us it's about like is it a big enough market to build a really big business and if it's a tiny market, we're probably not interested unless it's a cash flow business that we're buying control of.

Yeah.

Liquid Death was so impressive to me because like marketing water, that's just really hard.

It just seems so silly.

I mean, when he first brought it to me, I was like, I don't know, Mike.

Are you kidding me?

And then I started looking at it into like marketing and how he came up with, you know, Mike Cesario came up with everything.

And I was like, this is going to be like, this is going to be huge.

I mean, you're starting to see these creator brands like Mr.

Beast with Feastables

entering spaces that have been dominated for 100 years.

Yeah.

And shaking them up.

And it's just starting.

Like you combine like a person as media company, right?

Like you

with kind of the ability to build stuff fast.

Like we could sit here and launch like nine companies this afternoon.

Wow.

Literally on the back of like these AI coding platforms, Lovable and Replit and all these.

And so I think the power and why it's so exciting for you and for your audience is that the power has shifted from the engineer, so skills that very few of us have, we don't,

to the marketer, to the communicator, to the business side.

And that's really exciting.

All of a sudden, technology is not the barrier that it was.

Oh, I can't pay 200,000 for like a, you know, full stack engineer.

Now you don't need to build yourself.

I'm building stuff.

And CAS like, why are you wasting your time?

Like, I want to know these tools.

Wow.

And our son, our oldest son, who's 23.

Hey, Miles, if you're out there,

he just started a company and, you know, he realizes that he just doesn't need a huge team.

He and his co-founder can do what they need to do, like just them, which is incredible.

When I think back to Buddy Media, we got up to like 350 people.

I would say, how many of those do you think were engineers?

100?

A lot.

Yeah.

Raise 100 million because like we had to build and then sell.

Now you just build and sell.

And if you have built-in distribution like you have,

you can build stuff really fast and see what sticks.

Yeah, a lot less risk these days.

Yeah.

And immediate feedback from your customers, right?

So that's great.

Yeah, I'm excited.

That's probably the next step for me because we're getting like 200 million views a month right now.

If I could figure out a product or service I line up.

Us too.

Like we're not, you know, we're focusing more on like, how do we launch businesses than just invest because companies aren't going to need the money.

You know, we just had dinner at South by Southwest with an entrepreneur, young entrepreneur from Poland who launched an AI company.

They got to 100 million of ARR with 30 people.

And how long did that take?

It didn't happen.

Tell them how long it took.

It took like 12 minutes because this guy was like 13 years old.

Like it took nothing.

And I was both jealous.

I'm like, dude, you're young, handsome, rich, and you don't have to manage all these employees, but also super fired up because he was using AI tools that others had built.

to build his AI tooling in the voice space, like AI voice space.

And you're just going to see great companies built by dreamers.

And,

you know, people are saying, oh, all the ideas are taken.

There's nothing else to do.

Well, look at Liquid Death.

Right.

Like, look at any of these

newer companies.

Like,

you know, look at pop-up bagels, which is a new bagel

crazy.

I love how you say bagel.

Bagel.

Bagel.

Bagel.

Can I say bagel?

Bagel.

Bagel.

Can you say bagel?

Whatever it's called.

But like,

he innovated on the most simple bread product, right?

So anyone else.

That's the one in New York, right?

Yeah.

I think I saw a story about that one.

It's going national.

We need them out here.

The bagels suck out here.

Yeah, well, I wish they sucked in New York because I love them and they just like go right here.

I grew up on bagels, man, in Jersey.

I miss them.

Bagels.

They're big.

We have them every day.

We love pizza.

You get the Taylor ham or just plain?

Yeah.

I mean, I'm a big plain fan or cinnamon and raisin.

I know that's like very like basic.

Controversial.

I like everything, bagel.

I like stinky.

Throw some salmon on it.

Just so people know me.

You do like from a mile away.

Tomato, onion, capers,

and salmon.

Can you imagine that?

This is after you get married.

Yeah.

You know, you got to play cool while you're not and safe.

Yeah.

25 years in, I'm just stinking it out.

Yeah.

I feel that.

A little hot and juicy.

Have you been there?

No.

No.

Oh, that's fine.

I don't even know what that is.

You'll be stinking for two days.

Okay.

It's a seafood boil.

Oh, yeah.

No, not.

Yeah.

It does a strip club.

No, no.

I don't go out there.

No.

So you mentioned the daughter, and I know you mentioned the son.

What do you guys think the best age is these days to have kids?

To have kids.

Okay.

So,

well, most people think we were young when we had them.

We had, I had, I was 30 and he was 27.

So I feel like he was young.

I actually think that the earlier you can have them, the better.

Really?

I think the recovery of your body.

is just, especially for the female side, is just, it's a lot.

It's a lot.

And the toll of the stress of of literally keeping another human being alive is is probably best done when you're youngest okay now i don't i know that that's if you want them like if you want kids well duh then i

mean so if you want kids

his question was when do you think the optimal time is the optimal time is when you want them oh my god no a lot of people i've found here we go

either get talked into it by their significant other

or they're both a little wishy-washy, right?

So if you want to have them, have them right away.

But it's okay not having kids.

Like kids are

big investments.

There's zero ROI on kids.

You can't fire them.

We like companies so you can fire people.

Like if they're not working out, your kids you can't fire.

That's true.

The ROI, I think, happens when they get old, like past 20, and then they have, we think, and then they have grandkids.

I think the ROI is about grandkids, but that's a big, that's a long investment.

Think about that.

That could be 30 years before you get

the return on investment is very low.

You look at the stats on how much parents spend on their kids every year.

It's pretty crazy.

Oh, yeah.

So I was saying this to my friend the other day.

We set up those, I can't remember what they're called, the accounts for college funds.

And now that our daughter, so that'll be the third kid, right, is going to college, that money is ready.

It's like we're going to have income now because I can just spend that money now on her you know in her college I'm loving it no more expenses Viv let's go speaking of college so did all three of your kids go to college yes one graduates this year we have a junior Emory and one starting at Northwestern in the fall nice you guys are believer in that system still

it's a good question yeah I don't

we we believe in it for the right kids we don't think it's as necessary as it was in the past So there's no shame involved.

Companies are hiring people who didn't graduate.

We don't care.

We hired people who didn't graduate.

And I'll tell you, if you went to Harvard Business School, we're not hiring you.

No, no, no.

Really?

No, no, no.

That's your thing.

You didn't get into Harvard.

Oh, he's better.

I just find them entitled.

But still, did you apply to Harvard?

Yes.

Yeah, I got rejected.

Okay.

So, yeah.

So

let me answer the question.

I think

there was no alternative, I think, to um

college for the three kids i think our oldest needed to go because it was an exercise of getting through something having a goal sticking with it long enough even if you're miserable right do i think he actually learned a lot in school with like what he studied no i don't middle guy i think he um probably hasn't enjoyed classes but i think he's loved the living being an adult learning how to adult i I think our daughter who wants to study like cancer and science, she's going to need those classes.

Yeah, that makes sense.

Yeah.

And I think she's going to love it.

But no, I don't think everyone needs to go.

I just don't think there's an alternative with a safety net for a majority of people if you don't go.

We're also among the people.

Wait, let him hear that.

Let him hear that.

You get what I'm saying?

I'm processing that.

Yeah.

Yes, you get it.

Because like,

if you say, okay, fine, no one goes, there's going to be a lot of people with no structure and nothing to do, and they're going to fall apart.

Yeah, I could see that.

Yeah.

My thing, I guess, is the tuition aspect too.

It puts a lot of people in debt.

It's stupid.

One of our friends' kids got into UMiami.

It's like $78,000 a year.

That is insane.

Well, that's, I mean, my point was going to be like.

We are the luckiest people in the world.

Yes.

Right.

Our parents were middle class.

They could afford education.

Born on third base.

Yeah.

Like, so we're very cognizant of like who we were born into.

And our kids are even more fortunate.

Hopefully they're listening.

And I think the cost sets a lot of people back.

And when I look at like four years of like doing something, so do something where you can show up and say, here's what I've done.

Cause that's what we care about.

We don't care about like,

where you went to school, what you studied.

Like, what have you done?

Right.

So even if you like, if you're working at McDonald's, if you go to like Oswego,

figure out your story.

And I think you've done this really well.

Like, what is that story that you're going to put out to the world?

And it has to be based on something tangible you've done.

So if you're just going to like not focus for four years, you're better off going to college.

I'd like to also see the acceptance of trade schools, you know, in the U.S.

I think that's going to be a nice safety net.

I can see that happening.

Those jobs are coming back right now because my generation is super lazy.

Yeah.

Well, so it, it, I don't want to like totally agree, but I agree.

Well, when it comes to like using our hands, it's not like if you asked a 25-year-old to change a tire, they would not know how most of them wouldn't know how it would, but it's not taught anymore.

So I like the idea of trade schools.

I like what Mike says in terms of like, what does your resume say?

Talk about what you've done.

Talk about what you've worked on.

Right.

And

I just think that you have to have that kind of structure.

I think most people will need that.

Yeah.

I look at it also from the point of view of like how you're allocating the money.

So like, would I rather spend 50K a year on college or a mentor like Gary Vee or someone?

Well, but can you, can everyone get that mentor?

Yeah, that's true.

So like, I keep thinking like, it's easy to say that.

I mean, let me, let me give you this story.

So when we started Buddy Media, one of the interns that we had, Gotti, right?

He came from Northwestern, right?

Yeah.

And journalism school, and he was a freshman, and he did so well at our company that summer.

Mike turned to him and said, don't go back to college.

And I literally, we had like a screaming match about this because I said, you can't say that.

He's going to go back to his mother A.

And first of all, you're going to get a phone call.

And second, like this kid needed structure, right?

He needed that foundation.

Yes, he did.

We'll never know.

He went back.

He went back.

Yes, he did.

Yes, he did.

Most people need the structure.

I'm not saying that it's worth the money or the four years.

I would love for college to be a little bit more efficient and mindful of time and actually what you're doing.

I'm not a big fan of like all the required classes.

Oh, I hated those.

That's why I've dropped off.

I mean, it's just so stupid.

I'm not a fan of like, oh, you have to take a language.

Like, didn't we do that all in high school?

Yeah.

Like, didn't, didn't we have that forced on us in high school?

Spanish class, yeah.

Yeah.

Like, why do you have to pick it up in college?

Why can't you pick what you want to study?

Yeah.

Well, you went to journalism school, you said?

and

journalism um you mastered in it

so they had an accelerated program so i got a master's in journalism which i have not used

that's not true you're an incredible writer okay thank you thank you cass that was really nice

um i started a company in at northwestern because the internet was happening so i'm 50 this is 1994 the internet

you know the commercial internet was happening.

We're talking about like Mark Andreessen and Mosaic and Netscape and Yahoo was now around.

And so I'd launched a company in college and spent most of my college career, at least in junior and senior year,

like working on my company, which at the time,

very few people did.

Now everyone has a company in college, it seems, including our son.

And that just set me on a path that if you can go to college and focus on something you love, and just continue to put in the time.

I think what we've realized, and you're like an incredible example of this, you do something over and over and over again, good things happen.

You get good at it, you get known for it, and you can, and you build a network and you can see opportunities that other people can't see.

So a lot of people are jumping around every year, every two years, or trying different things.

We don't think you have to be passionate about it.

I know that you are passionate about what you do as we are, but find something that you're good at and do it again and again and again.

And you'll have a life you like.

And then supplement, you know, you, you know, kids always talk about like, oh, but I've got to only do follow your passion, right?

Figure out what,

you know, all that kind of stuff.

It's rare that your passion will make the money that you need to afford your life.

I think that's rare.

And so instead of having that mindset, keep the passion, but figure out what your talents are and then surround yourself with people who fill in the gaps and then supplement your life with the things you love, right?

If it all of a sudden intersects synchronicity, right?

Great.

But if not, you know, you got to know what pays the bills, right?

If you want to have an independent life in which you're functioning and have a balance of some kind of, you know, something that you do that you love, that's another way to do it.

You got to be realistic.

Yeah.

I mean, when I started this, I sucked at it and I, it was uncomfortable.

Right.

Doing the hard stuff.

Yeah.

We know how you feel.

I mean, we're re-engaging with content.

And just in the last year, it's like, man, we really sucked.

We still suck.

We still suck, but in five years, like keep this tape.

In five years, we're going to be awesome.

Oh, I bet.

Because we do it every day and it's kind of a practice now.

And it's getting more comfortable.

We listen to people who are doing, we started, we had zero and we reached, what, 1.3 million people last year.

That's impressive.

Yeah.

Well done.

So it's just keep doing it.

And our kids, what's great is your kids don't.

listen to anything you say.

You could tell them, don't do that, do that.

It's just like out of their head, but they pay pay attention to everything you do.

So they are watching.

And they're in your priorities.

And so how you treat people, how hard you work, your relationship.

If you're a screamer, they're going to be a screamer.

If you kind of eat like crap, they're going to eat like crap.

We noticed the biggest thing, like Mike and I were talking about what he just said the other day.

You know, we obviously, you know, we weren't healthy during our last company.

In the last like 12 years, we've really concentrated on health and longevity and really hitting the gym again.

And now all three kids work out.

Wow.

And when we tried to get them, you know, 12 years ago, like, hey, come work out, they didn't want to have anything to do with us.

They didn't take you seriously.

And it's like, you, it doesn't matter what you say.

It's what you do.

And now they all work out.

Lead by example, right?

Yes.

And Cass has the

lifts more leg weight than anyone in the family.

Really?

That's not true.

More than me.

Well, what's your leg press?

No, no, no.

Leg press is not.

No, we were doing deadlifts.

We're doing the deadlifts.

dang you guys are deadlifting yeah

i hate it but she was an athlete she has me doing it but she's a monster

it's good it's good for you you have to work on legs you would have skipped legs

you got to do legs twice a week most people just do it once or nothing i do it twice a week because i'm trying to increase my vertical jump right i got a little basketball game tonight oh oh what what position well i used to be center but six six ain't center height anymore these days oh my gosh These kids are freaks.

They're like seven feet minimum.

Right.

And they can all jump.

Well, can you shoot then?

I can.

I need to develop that.

So, so what's your skill then?

My game is fast break layups.

Okay.

Yeah, because I was a track runner.

So you're fast.

I'm fast.

Yeah.

Ran the 800 meter.

Wow.

I mean, 6'6 fast is valuable in basketball.

Yeah.

But yeah, I'm probably like a power forward these days.

I can't be a center anymore.

And who do you play against?

A lifetime league.

It's big in New York, actually.

I'm a member there.

Real big in New York.

They come here for the national basketball tournament every year.

That's amazing.

Yeah.

Have you gotten into pickleball at all?

I tried it twice.

I have the right frame for it because I'm long and skinny.

Yeah.

So I think I'd be good if I took it seriously.

Are you guys pretty avid pickleball players?

I am.

Yeah.

Do you play doubles, mixed doubles?

I will not play mixed doubles with him.

We can work together, but we can't compete.

I'm not what they call an athlete.

No, no.

No, that's not true.

He's, he's pretty good.

He wasn't, he's pretty good.

The, the, the issue that I have is

Mike's way of showing his competitiveness is not how I show it and need it on the court.

So I'm extremely competitive.

I grew up playing tennis.

I played in college.

I played after college.

Wow.

And

I need him to want to win.

And there's a switch that I can't turn off.

And Mike sometimes thinks that this is just for fun.

And for me, it's not.

It's pickleball.

You don't take it serious.

I do with her, but if she sees a neck, she'll step on it.

On the court.

On the court.

Like a weakness.

You'll exploit it.

Yes, sure.

For me, I think like I like having fun playing sports, as do our kids.

I mean, our boys are.

And I never competed at the level she did.

She was a two-sport college athlete.

I finally admit that.

Thank you.

Wow.

Well, they're D1, Mike.

It's golf and tennis.

It's not real sports.

But tennis is a tough sport.

Dude, what are you saying?

They're not team sports.

They're not team sports.

It's, you know, I'm going to get a lot of hate for that one.

But I will tell you, and that's untrue.

It's why she's so good at business because she doesn't lose.

And I think our losing.

I love that.

Our kind of drive comes from like more of fear of losing than like

the glory of winning.

Like we never thought about, oh, we're going to make all this money.

We're going to have an independent life.

It was like, if we fail, we're like, everyone's going to, everyone's going to think we're losers.

Interesting.

And rejection is always.

For you, I'm much more about just.

You never really got rejected as much as I did, which is true.

You got into schools because of tennis.

You got

personal here.

No, I got rejected from four out of the five schools I applied to.

I applied to them.

that's my whole thing but i love that i did because those rejection letters i have a stack of 60 of them all on my desk and they've been on my desk every day of my life that's your motivation jobs

jobs and all the colleges yeah there's no like rejection letters from like chicks like like well what else would it be all of a sudden you said like 60.

i was like you didn't apply to 60 colleges no the jobs like I applied to a lot of internships in college.

I always wanted to work and all these newspapers were like, no, thanks.

Wow.

And I went back and I looked at the hiring managers on the letters, and they're all like, most of them are losers.

Hey, which I like.

Mike's.

No, I went back and I looked and they're like, oh, yeah, they're, I'm so happy.

So you hold some resentment towards those that wrong.

It's not resentment, but like fuel.

We had like,

so I don't remember all of our investors, but I remember every VC who said no to us.

Wow.

Everyone.

And I see them at a lot of events.

And we know the ones too who looked at us and were like, oh, we're not, we're not going to invest in a, in a couple of years.

Yeah.

Like there's some who said like, and big ones, like brand name ones.

There's one who pulled a term sheet.

We got a term sheet.

We're so happy.

They're like, oh, we, you know, we talked to the partnership.

We have to take it back, which is bad.

If you're an investor who gives a term sheet to a founder and the founder, they get, I mean, it's the best day of their life.

It's closed at that point.

Yeah.

And then to hear a few days later that it's like, oh, psych, right?

I was joking.

Yeah.

I see that guy everywhere.

And I'm so happy.

Because

it cost them, it was early.

Yeah.

It cost them 81 times their money

on buddy media because it was this, it was the early round.

I know.

And Mike also.

But I love that.

I love that.

Yeah.

No, I can't.

I can't really follow that guy around and stand by him.

Yeah, I'll be super happy.

I'm not that petty, but I think getting bullied early on for me definitely motivated me.

It's just what, it's just my motivation.

And I'm super friendly to all of them.

Like, I don't have a mean bone in my body unless I, unless someone really rejected you.

No, not rejected me.

I'm on nice to all of them.

I don't necessarily like cheer for them.

I'll tell you one thing.

Because they weren't cheering.

I'll tell you one thing that you

changed for me, which was interesting, is Mike would never allow, if someone in our company decided to leave, which was very rare, he would never allow a party for them.

He's like,

why are we celebrating them leaving?

It's just the wrong way to look at it.

And you celebrate people on the way in.

If they were going to another company.

I know.

Like they were like, for some reason, but there was this culture.

I I don't know if it still exists that like when people leave a company, you have like a going away lunch.

I heard about that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I was just like, no, no fucking way.

Like we celebrate people the day they start and every other day.

But once they're not on our team, I wish them well and I hope they do great, but they're just not on the team.

Right.

It's like, you know, once.

Yeah.

Like when someone leaves your basketball team, you're like, great.

Yeah.

Like you're not on the team.

I also talk to you and I hope you're not.

But you're competition now.

Do you see them as an enemy now.

Not really an enemy because I don't see

it just kind of, you're not my people.

Like

from a team perspective.

But also also having said that, we've had like a lot of people leave to start their own companies, which we love.

Which we love.

But I will say it had us change our focus a lot because most people think, okay,

like, we should do all this like bonding stuff and everything like that.

And we took it very seriously, how we hired them, the interview process, getting to know them and making a big deal their first year.

If you could make it with us a year, that was a big deal.

So we actually didn't have a lot of people who left other than to start companies, which was Cass.

I mean, one of the cheat codes from the book is all about how to put the cult in culture.

Because it's still work.

You're not going to love work.

But if you can create an environment where people are laughing and they're recommending their friends and they're doing work they think is valuable, like to them personally,

you have a really positive experience at work and you have a company that's powered by that.

And so Cass, who is an incredible manager and, you know, HR director, was able to create rituals and symbols and traditions at a company that you would see in kind of like a cult or religion, which I think kept people bonded to each other.

And not just through like goofy things, but through philanthropy and giving back and

going into the community.

And every company event would have some sort of social good part, making sandwiches, donating toys.

I remember over the holiday cycle for survival.

You know, we've helped raise 400 million for cancer research.

Wow.

And so that part of the culture of like, how do you do good together is like a really big cheat code in the book.

It also helps too, because whatever you start with as a founder, The chances are you're not going to end up with whatever you thought you were going to do.

You're going to pivot.

And we had that happen, what, three or four four times at Buddy Media, our last company.

But if you've actually spent the time making sure the teams are working, right, and providing great leadership, which to us means like radical transparency, we would share financials.

We would share all the good, all the bad

employees.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, our investors hated it, but never leaked.

We treated the employees like they're the board.

Yeah.

Like we owe you to tell you like what's going on, just so you know how your work work levels up to the company yeah so that they can all be aligned and and that was part of the focus that you talked about like they knew what the number one area of focus was which is really helpful because

this is a conversation that happens at a lot of software companies and other companies you know the person building the product has a whole you know roadmap the person selling it is like oh i need this for this customer we're not gonna be able to get this customer until we build it the product seems like okay we have a full roadmap what do you want me not to do right well i need all that, but I need this as well.

When you focus and you say, listen, number one is getting new customers on board.

Number two is product.

You then can like look at both of the team members and say, listen, you both have valid points, but we're going to build this because getting new customers on board is the number one focus for the business.

You can make decisions.

So you go back to your areas of focus to make decisions.

And people don't feel like you're just choosing sides as a leader.

Yeah.

You know, we've, we ran the companies as kind of, I think, benevolent dictators.

Like we listened, but it was like our decision.

Right.

A lot of companies these days are run as like democracies.

Crowdsourcing their

shit.

Which is hard.

Or the board and everything.

Yeah.

Just and like, hey,

let us know what you think.

Let me send out a survey.

Like, yeah.

I hate filling out surveys.

Yeah.

Where it's like leaders lead and you know a leader.

when they're leading.

And most people who aren't leaders want to know that someone has their hand on the steering wheel.

Yeah.

And let's also forget that because we shared all the information and because we were relentless with being transparent, when we did have to pivot, no one jumped ship.

Right.

Because a lot of people are going to be like, oh my God, what I have no idea what we're doing now.

Yeah, they'll freak out.

They'll freak out and they'll be like, screw this.

Let's all go.

Right.

One person leaves two, then it becomes a mass exodus.

That didn't happen when we had to pivot.

And I think that's because, again, we committed to making sure that we were focused and then we shared that focus 100% in every conversation.

Hey, remember, you're doing this because these are our top three goals.

Hey, remember, like it would be all teams, one-on-one department meetings by the water cooler, you name it.

Yes, it is harder as well being remote.

I hear this all the time, but I don't buy it.

Like you just, as leaders, you got to go where the hubs are and you got to meet with the people.

You guys went fully remote?

We didn't because we had sold the company um before covid and if you remember it's like 2019 no one did video calls yeah like that whole zoom thing like we used to use like skype way back when but it was not a thing like you wouldn't hop on a work call in a t-shirt from your house like a video and you wouldn't feel it yeah we're not believers in remote work um we think that if you're doing something that's important being together bouncing off each other that electricity is important yeah i'm big on that too yeah and just getting to like great companies, you can feel it.

You walk into an office, you're like, wow, I could feel it.

Yeah, I don't do any pods remote,

which I love.

And it's just, you know, we're in a world that everything's so easy, instant gratification, like taking the time to put down the phones to like interface with your coworkers or colleagues or new friends.

Like, it's where it's at.

Yeah.

Well, well done.

That's phenomenal culture because job hopping is a common trend these days with my generation.

Yep.

Every two years.

I blame a lot.

by the way that's a good question i think it's a lot of things but i don't know the attention

generation though yeah i don't know but i'm not that much older than you but i don't i think companies

have taken people for granted and they haven't evolved with the digital society we're in

and so

what does that mean i mean that sounds very vague So hiring managers don't get back to people who the ghosting is just a lot of ghosts.

So companies ghosts.

Then people start at companies and there's no constant feedback.

Number two.

Number three is the best thing you can do for employees is show them that you see a path for them.

A path for growth.

So the first thing I would ask any new employees, like, what are your goals?

Not here in life.

Do you want to start your own company?

If so, like, I want to know that.

Do you want to like work for GE?

Do you want to kind of travel the world and get super rich?

We're talking about

like small companies.

We're talking about like starting companies.

Like this isn't what you do if you wanted to go and work for a corporation.

Most companies ignore this.

I agree.

Most companies look at these young people as just cogs.

We see it with their own.

They also don't, they also don't, they don't believe that everybody counts, right?

So it's not that, like Mike called us

benevolent dictators.

I actually believed that everyone's opinion counted.

It didn't mean that I, that I actually like was like, oh, I'm going to sway my boat.

Right.

But I am going to listen to everyone despite age, where you've come from, what your background is.

I think that's important.

And again, it goes back to the energy because if everyone's aligned with the mission and you're in the same

headspace and you know how you're rowing, right?

The pace, you know, that you're in this boat together, good stuff happens.

I agree.

But no, I definitely agree with you too.

It's, it's interesting because my grandparents had the same job their whole life.

Yeah.

I mean, and that was common for that era.

But why, I mean, I go back to like what you said.

You think your generation jumps a lot.

Is it that is it that they're just not happy with the perks or they get bored?

There is a lot of comparison in my generation.

So they'll see their friends making more money on social media or whatever, and they feel like they need a phone leveling up.

Yeah.

I think there's not a lot of patience.

Oh, so there's no earnings.

So it's immediate gratification.

I don't like that.

Oh, all the time.

Even myself, I find myself wanting instant gratification gratification when I make a post.

If I don't hit a certain amount of comments, I'm like, damn, like, what's going on?

So I find myself in that.

And a lot of kids think like that.

That's hard.

That's a hard way.

I think that, like, what you just said is like part of your craft, which is why I love kind of content these days.

I went to journalism school.

You would publish in the Chicago Tribune.

You're like, there's no connection.

There's no feedback.

Right.

And so.

I think that like paying attention to the metrics that matter is what propels you forward in any business.

And, you know, unfortunately, we're in a world that it used to be we didn't value like old people as a society.

And now I don't think that a lot of companies value the young people because it's never been a better time to be young.

And people, every young person I talk to, I was talking to a 10-year-old the other night.

We had dinner at a friend's house.

I'm learning about apps.

I'm learning about.

kind of culture.

I'm learning about like all of this stuff, which is under the radar.

And how they communicate.

And so that is what companies should be using in their kind of and not be fearful of it too.

Yeah.

And I think that like we're seeing the death of the old manager.

Right.

And or the career manager.

The career manager.

And, you know, in a few years, all the managers will look like kind of us in some way.

Right.

And I think that that's great.

Like, we are the first generation that had email in college.

And, you know, so everyone younger than us is substantial.

Well, we didn't have email.

We had email, but no one emailed us, right?

Well, that's the difference, right?

Yeah, now like people email you.

It's like, why are they emailing?

I do, I do find it funny that I had to teach the boys, especially and our daughter, but the boys that like, hey, you know, when they're applying to internships, like work is done over email, not text.

And so please check your email.

Yeah.

I prefer text.

Oh, I mean, I get it, but you can't do long.

You know, you can't, you can't move a product forward in a text.

Slack, you can do it in Slack.

But Mike had this thing where he wanted to get the whole family on Slack.

Yeah.

How'd that go?

Not well.

We're not in Slack.

I just, I lose a lot of stuff.

Yeah.

Insurance cards.

I'm like, just get it all in Slack.

Let's all just work in Slack.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's hard getting the fam in one little chat.

You know, we have some fun ones, though.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Ours is called Fab8 because we had three dogs.

It's

chat.

Like chat is where we live our life.

Yeah.

Like, I think all of us.

And, you know, we want people to text us when we have a relationship.

Like, if it's an email, it'll get buried.

Well, for me, people who are like mad at me for not returning an email.

I'm like, I have a thousand emails.

For you, I get back to people.

I try to, but it's just very hard because if you are going to do great work, oh, here we go.

You just can't sit in front of your computer, right?

Like, like, answering emails is doing other people's work.

And so I open my email when I or it's pushing the work to the right person.

Listen, I'm not the most responsive to something, excluding my wife, I guess.

I've seen this approach.

I think Damon John talked about it.

You could become a slave to your email inbox.

I was a slave.

Checking it every 10 minutes.

So maybe I've gone too far to the other side, but we'll talk about it later.

I check at least twice a day.

Just twice?

Yeah, because sometimes it's important.

Wait, that's it?

Is that not a lot?

No, that's not a lot.

I feel like that's a good amount.

Interesting.

Really?

Twice a day?

How often do you check yours?

I would say five.

No way.

You'd You'd do it more than that.

Wow.

Well, no, you might get the notifications.

You don't care about them.

I mean, I'll, so I think we scan.

So we have inbound from like 100 companies.

We have all of our stuff.

25%.

So I'm scanning.

Wow.

But, and I'm also constantly saying, hey, if you really need me, it's an emergency, text me.

Yeah.

Because I can't guarantee.

Well, you guys have hundreds of companies.

I love this.

So yeah, that makes sense.

But it's, you know, everyone's got to figure out how they can work in a way that like lets them do their best work.

Yeah.

Right.

Like I like you can never distract.

You could never wear an Apple Watch.

Like I get distracted easily.

You have ADHD?

Yes.

Among other things.

And so for me, it's very hard.

Like all these notifications like disrupt my flow.

And I'm all about flow.

Like, how do I get into this like rhythm of like doing what I think is important work to me?

Nope.

I live on Do Not Disturb.

Interesting.

I think I'm on that mode all day.

And it's the best thing for your brain.

Probably.

It lets you do your work.

Yeah.

Well, I.

Do you want kids i do yeah so that's why i asked that question partially it's just my own well i i would have them when you're young and do this and work hard because i think the best thing is that you get the time back when they're older bigger kids bigger problems yeah i was thinking 30 yeah 40 28 right now yeah so 29 30.

let grind now when they're little everybody can love them it doesn't grind when when they're big when grind after after they need you they get to that tricky like 12 to 18.

It's just, you got to be around them.

Yeah.

You're going to be a great dad.

Thank you.

You know how to listen.

You know how to communicate.

Like

you're going to be cool.

You're going to be present.

And that's what it's about.

I love it.

And you're still going to mess up.

That's what we also.

And you're going to feel like a loser, like the worst parent ever every day.

Damn.

I know it's challenging.

Yeah.

Well, guys, it's been awesome.

Anything else you want to close off with?

No, I just appreciate you having us on.

I appreciate you having the book there.

Yeah, check it out.

We'll link it below.

Yeah.

No, I just thank you.

I appreciate it.

It's been fun talking with you.

Yeah, and everyone reach out.

I mean, we're

don't email him, though.

Don't email him.

Like, I mean, listen, email until like we respond.

It may not be right away, but you know, all of our info is at cassandmike.com or shovelingshit.com.

And the only reason we put this out was to help you build your confidence as an entrepreneur from the mistakes we made.

So here's our 50 cheat codes that we think will like help you avoid issues.

You'll probably make all the the same mistakes, even though we'll tell you like what to do.

Um, but hopefully, it you avoid some of the pitfalls.

I love it.

We'll check it out, guys.

We'll put the uh, is it on Audible too?

It will be okay.

Yeah, June 3rd, it comes out, and then uh, we'll be in a hundred different countries on Audible.

And obviously, if you like analog,

that'd be Amazon.

I love it.

Yeah, I'm an audiobook guy, so I'll definitely give it a listen.

Thanks, guys.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Appreciate it.