How Killers Exploit Police Loopholes to Escape | Alex Cody Foster DSH #1190

To this group, is that they know investigative methods.

They know law enforcement methodology.

They know so acutely what law enforcement does.

And if they frame these perfect crimes as drownings by just another drunk college kid, they're not examined as anything else.

All right, guys, Alex Cody Foster here in Vegas today.

Long flight from Maine, right?

It was.

It actually had a bunch of delays and it ended up being like 12 and a half hours.

Holy crap.

Was it snowing out there?

Yeah, it was snowing.

They had to de-ice the plane.

We were running out of fuel when we were coming in because Trump was here.

Oh, wow.

So they wouldn't allow us to land because there's so much air traffic.

So we had to reroute because we were running out of fuel.

Yeah.

Back to Phoenix, get fuel, and then come back here.

Dude, that's crazy.

It's been a shit show, man.

I went to Minneapolis before.

I had to do two extra days because I had to overnight in different cities because of delays.

But it's worth it, man.

It's fun.

I love driving.

I love it.

Were you out in Minneapolis doing interviews or what were you doing there?

Yeah, I was there for We Hunt Serial Killers.

It's the project that I started in 2024.

And there are a lot of cases in Minneapolis and La Crosse that belong to the alleged smiley face killer phenomenon.

And so we were out there.

Actually, on behalf of iHeartRadio, we just got a green light that I'm doing a show with.

So we're out there interviewing a lot of victims, families, and eyewitnesses and stuff.

Yeah.

So smiley-faced killers, how many of them are there, allegedly?

That is a very good question.

So my former partner and friend, Kevin Gannon, he's the detective who broke the story back in 1997 with the case of Patrick McNeil.

And he believes that there are over a thousand members.

He and his team.

Yeah.

There are over a thousand.

members.

I haven't been able to verify that,

but I know that there is a coordinated group effort and that these guys have been working together for a long time.

So I think that there

are at least dozens of members.

I think originally it was just a small group of killers who sort of found each other during the advent of the internet age in the late 90s and started working together and killing people.

That's way more than I expected.

I thought it'd be like a handful.

Yeah.

That's pretty scary, man.

When you take all of the potential cases and put them together, it's over 700.

so it could be the biggest serial killer cult in history whoa

that is crazy speaking of cults oh that's fun stuff perfect segue into your mother man so was it your mother and father or just your mother just my mom yeah just my mom i uh i think yeah i talked about it a bit you probably heard on the mike ritland yeah um had a pretty weird upbringing.

I say pretty weird and then other people say that's a trauma response.

Just say you had a shit child.

Yeah, you're right.

So, you know, it was pretty bad.

And that's why I moved out of my house when I was 15.

I moved in a college campus with my, my girlfriend at the time who's a college student and

15, almost 16.

Yeah.

By the way, I was like on the cusp.

Yeah.

I know each state is different, right?

Yeah.

So,

yeah, but my mother, uh,

she tried, but she wasn't the best a lot of the time.

And she tried to kill me one time.

And that created a falling out, obviously.

And she also

joined a cult.

Yeah.

and i haven't talked to her since it's been like five years or something so how old were you when she joined it

it was recently it was like eight years ago eight years 32 so yeah i was in my 20s wow my career was just kind of like kicking off and you know i lost my mom to the to the cult i wonder how they convinced her at her age because usually cults i feel like they start younger right she's always been sort of culty she's had this I don't know, this predilection towards different belief systems.

You know, like there are some people

who they just crave some sense of purpose and belonging.

I mean, we all do.

We all crave that.

And that's why we have our family units and, you know, our partners and our friends.

But some people crave it, I think, in a very negative aspect.

And this makes them go off the deep end and give all of their wealth, all their belongings up, everything that they have to the higher power, which is usually a human being trying to fleece them.

So I think that's really the mentality of most cults.

And that's why certain impressionable people go with it, hook, line, and sinker.

My mom being one of them.

Damn, that's scary, man.

It is okay.

I don't know.

She's having a grand old time, I bet.

Do you keep tabs or no?

No.

You don't even try to talk to her at this point?

She is living in our old family home, which was repoed by the bank like three years ago or something like that.

She stopped paying her mortgage.

And so technically she doesn't own the home anymore, but she's been squatting in it.

And she hasn't left the home in over a year.

Holy crap.

Yeah, she doesn't even go outside.

What?

Yeah, she's afraid to go outside.

She thinks the government is like bugging her.

Oh, my gosh.

Yeah, it's pretty bad.

I have three siblings and only one of them talks to her now.

He's got a bigger heart than we do, I think.

Well, you can only put up with so much, right?

I mean, she tried to kill you.

I mean, that's...

Yeah, I feel like I get a free pass for that one.

Yeah, that's crazy.

Was she under some drug influence or something?

No, no, she wasn't.

But

really weird family history.

She's German.

And

basically when

my older sister and brother were kids, she met my father who was American.

He was traveling to Europe.

And anyway, my mom, I found this out when I went to Germany when I was 21 to like discover.

who my family really was and what the true story was behind my mother abandoning her kids in Europe.

And she

met my father.

I guess they fell in love.

She joined him on the trip back to America and left her kids, banned her kids there, my brother and my sister, and got married to my dad, had me, my other brother, and eventually brought my older brother back, but my sister didn't want to.

So I had never met her.

I didn't meet her until I was 21.

And the story always growing up from my mom, and I would like hear her crying in the bedroom.

I didn't know why.

And this is why is because she lost, she left her daughter, and she always felt guilty.

But she left

Europe because she was,

uh, my grandfather later found out, was running away from Interpol.

Whoa.

Because she had, yeah, she had fleeced a bunch of old people of their retirement money or something and some scam.

She was always doing that sort of thing.

And so she was wanted by the law.

She saw my dad, perfect opportunity.

Got to thank her in some way because that's how I was born.

And then escaped to America and never went back.

Damn.

Yeah.

That is some crazy family history, man.

Yeah.

And I went over there.

She never knew her father.

Yeah.

He disappeared when she was two years old.

Whoa.

Never heard from him again.

And so

I went to Germany when I was 21.

And with my cousin, we tracked down what happened to her father.

He actually.

He abandoned her and her sister and their mother and went to a new part of Germany and started a whole new family.

And

he had, during World War II, had seen some atrocities, some really terrible things.

So he kind of like lost his mind.

And as far as we knew, the last like 12 years of his life, he spent in an asylum.

And it was around that time that I had lost my mind from some crazy shit that I experienced in Los Angeles as like a homeless kid,

and which set me up for this journey today, what I do now, that I was terrified that maybe I had inherited my grandfather's mental illness because my mother clearly had it.

Right.

She had whatever it is.

She's never been tested.

But that was a big fear for a while until what I was struggling with went away and it never came back.

Thank God.

Yeah, knock on wood.

You never know.

Yeah, it sounds like psychotic episodes or something.

Exactly.

Yep.

Yeah.

I was actually, same thing happened to me.

My grandfather was wild.

Really?

He physically abused my dad.

Oh, no.

So he had some mental trauma.

I'm sure the same thing happened to him.

So I was scared that I was going to come out kind of messed up too.

I think when you have a really strong constitution, I could be wrong about this, but this is my belief is that when you have a strong constitution and a good heart and a good head on your shoulders, you can kind of prevent that genealogical shit that skips generations and comes to haunt you in your own life.

I think really like.

We have a sense of power that may not be scientifically viable or understood, but it's there.

I agree.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think the odds, like if you're just like higher IQ, the odds are higher, but you can kind of mitigate that, you know?

I don't think I fit into that category.

Well, you just look at like a lot of smart people deal with mental health issues, I've noticed.

Yep, big time.

I think they just get in their own head.

They do.

And they have a predisposition.

A lot of their

family members, I think, have that as well.

They have super high IQs.

They're very intelligent and they're overthinkers.

Right.

I mean, I'm an overthinker.

I know how deep and dark that rabbit hole can go.

Never ending.

No.

I used to overthink every situation, every conversation.

Me too.

I used to analyze, like, oh, they reacted that way.

Why'd they do that?

You know, what stopped it?

That's a good question.

I don't think it was a specific thing.

I think it was just a bit of micro-dosing, a bit of self-reflection, realizing I had trauma growing up that I didn't know I had because I thought my life was normal similar to you.

Exactly.

Because you just, you don't talk to kids about how they're raised, so you just assume it's normal.

It's a cyclical, it's a cyclical nature of trauma, right?

And I did something similar.

Dude, I was I was totally gone.

For two and a half years, my mind was gone.

Wow.

And so I was just like traveling the world, this homeless, penniless vagabond, trying to find some semblance of self again.

And I couldn't because I was running away from myself, my selfhood, whatever the thing that was haunting me was, which I found out.

I was just running from it.

So I was like, let's go live in South America.

Let's go live in Europe.

Let's go hitchhike around America for six months, you know, because I was trying to escape myself.

And when I realized that's what was happening, I was on this

four-month journey along the Inside Passage to Alaska.

I started meditating every day and just coming to grips with the fucked up childhood that I had, that I didn't really know I had.

and with the crazy things that happened to me when I was on the road.

I think you saw in the other interview, I believe that I met a serial killer who wanted to rape and murder me.

I prevented it, but that experience changed my life.

And I couldn't sleep

on the streets of LA because you couldn't escape.

You couldn't go anywhere.

You're literally, you're naked because

you can't sleep inside a building with four walls and a ceiling.

You're literally exposed to the elements.

You're on a sidewalk.

People driving by, they can see you.

And I thought this this guy would find me.

So I didn't sleep for six nights.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then ironically, it was so weird.

I was climbing the wisdom tree in the Hollywood Hills.

That's why it's ironic because that's where I lost my mind.

It just like shifted.

And then I was, I had perpetual PTSD for two and a half years, just fight or flight.

Everything terrified me.

Holy crap.

Every moment of every, every waking moment, and even my dreams, I was haunted by these horrible nightmares.

But on that journey along the inside passage, meditating, coming to grips with what the

world was and who I was and what I had experienced, I finally let it go.

And I feel like I've been a somewhat sane individual ever since, somewhat.

Yeah.

I mean, I wouldn't be able to tell you went through all this with how you're presenting yourself right now.

So well done, man.

Yeah.

I think you've done a lot of self-development.

Thanks, man.

I mean, being homeless for two and a half years, I could not have been.

Oh, it wasn't that long.

Well, I mean, technically, yeah, I was homeless for like half a year in LA.

Jeez.

Well, LA LA and across the country, I was hitchhiking and stuff.

And then for two years, I was two and a half years, I was just bouncing around the couch surfing.

Yeah, couch surfing, homeless in some stints for sure.

I had like just all these odd jobs.

I would live on farms.

I would like, I worked, uh, worked on this farm and on the west coast in this little shack in an apple orchard with no.

running water or electricity.

I was just was it Amish Farm or?

No, this one wasn't.

It was

an organic peach and apple farm.

Yeah, it was pretty cool, but

it was weird, man.

I bet, man.

Well, you got a lot of life experience at your young age.

It feels that way.

Why'd you choose Alaska?

Because being homeless in Alaska doesn't sound like a fun time.

You know, it's freezing.

Good question.

I was on this website when I was a teenager called findacrew.net.

And because ever since I was a kid, like...

13, 14 years old, I just wanted to escape.

I wanted to jump on a freight, a freighter, and just like drift around the world and experience the world.

I actually tried to do that one time and I was drowned because the rope was slack and I tried to shim me onto a ship.

Oh, wow.

In the middle of winter, that was a bad time.

And, but anyway,

I was on that website and for some reason, someone hit me up.

And this was during like the peak of my lunacy.

And

they, they said, Alex, your profile is great.

because you cook you know i had been cooking since i was very young and we would love to have you on board four months along the inside passage.

We're on an 82-foot yacht.

You would be a deck hand, crew, the sole crew, the only one, chef, everything.

And I jumped at the opportunity because in my mind, that was my

last experience.

I thought, I'm going to go on this ship.

I'm afraid of water.

I can't swim.

I'm going to go on the ship.

I'm going to fix my mind.

Or I'm not, you know, or I'll find some, I hate to say it, some real quiet, beautiful place, someplace along the journey and I'll jump, I'll jump off the boat.

But that never happened.

Thank God.

Wow.

So you were suicidal at that time.

I just wanted to end.

Yeah.

Two and a half years of feeling panic, like a two and a half year panic attack.

Yeah.

That's crazy.

It was insane.

And it was the most difficult experience I've ever had and ever will have, in my opinion.

And honestly,

the greatest thing that ever happened to me.

Wow.

Because it made me who I am today.

I like who I am.

I like what I do.

And I think I have,

I'm more attuned to a purpose I didn't know I had before.

And ever since I aligned with this purpose, it's like incredible opportunities, wonderful things just fall into place because I'm not fighting against it and swimming against the current anymore.

So

yeah, that Alaska was the final frontier in more ways than one.

That's where you really discover yourself.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

It was very surreal, man.

Like getting off that boat in Seattle after four months.

And the whole experience, it was, it was really,

it was multifaceted because I'm in the some of the most beautiful places in the world and I'm feeling so at peace and I'm meditating every day.

But then I'm working with the very type of personality that I really don't like.

Very, very wealthy, narcissistic couple who just

hated everything.

Really?

Yeah.

Were you on a fishing boat or?

No, I was on a private yacht.

Okay.

Sorry.

And

I would work like 16 hour days,

seven days a week.

I never had a day off.

They said in all 32 years that they had been doing that journey, no one had ever stayed the full four months.

And I knew why very quickly.

But I stayed.

And I got off that boat in Seattle.

And I'm like, I'm listening to the boat yard, all the machine, heavy machinery.

the airplanes droning overhead, the like loud noises, the smog, all that like desolation that used to just scare the hell out of me because it would just remind me of death.

And I was totally at peace with it.

I was just like looking around,

like, this is okay.

Wait a minute.

I'm not afraid.

I'm not afraid anymore.

Yeah.

It was this really

stark realization.

Two and a half years, you're in this constant fear.

And then suddenly you realize it's gone.

Oh my God, man.

It was like,

it was like the greatest high I've ever had.

I bet.

Yeah.

Wow.

What was the next step from there?

I decided to become a writer.

You know, I had so many stories that I experienced along that journey.

And I realized I probably had one of my own.

And this is something I've always sort of been aloof about.

And people, I was a ghostwriter for 10 years.

And everyone, a lot of people I worked with, they'd say, Alex, you should write your own story.

Like, holy shit, man.

You've been through a lot.

And I just kind of laughed it off.

I'm like, I don't really think so.

But I realized at some point I should.

And that's why I wrote my own book.

But at that time, I was 21 and I've always been fascinated by stories of the human experience.

So I decided I'm going to write about them.

And it was within about a year, I got my first ghostwriting gig by accident.

Turned out to be a sociopath under his wife.

But, you know.

That was, it was a gig until I fired him.

And that's a whole podcast right there.

That was wild.

Yeah, that dude was a dick.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Don't, don't share journals with me if you say you're going to try to murder your wife.

I'm going to talk about it.

Wow.

I'm going to take issue with that.

Come on.

Why did he want to murder her?

He wanted to get in custody of his kid.

Wow.

So he was very sporadic, very emotional, it sounds like.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah, man.

It was bad.

And he owed me like two months of back pay.

Damn.

And I was broke.

I was like, you know, I was relying on that.

money to come in and it didn't.

But that situation is what catapulted my career as a ghostwriter very early on.

Everything happens for a reason, right?

I think so.

That's crazy.

Why do you think you didn't want to pay?

Because obviously you had the money.

The dude was worth a lot of money.

He didn't want to pay because I

confronted him about the

journal entry that he had given me to ghostwrite his memoir.

And I confronted him about that.

I say, hey, man, like.

You mentioned these thoughts about murdering your ex-wife.

That doesn't sit right with me.

We got to talk about this.

This is bad And so he's he's just like yeah, well, um, we're not gonna work together anymore.

So I'm not gonna pay you the last like two months of work

Yeah, he just that's what he did never got the money and that's fine.

Yeah, and there was a lot of drama around him right when you were with him.

Yeah, I mean obviously you told me out there you got kidnapped once with him.

Oh, that was John.

Yeah, it was John Max.

Oh, that was a different person you're talking about?

This was my first client of all time.

Got it.

And he turned out to be like a sociopath.

Okay.

I thought you were talking about John this whole time.

Sorry, man.

No.

No, I was a sociopath, too.

That's why I thought you were talking about him.

Oh, that John's story is crazier than all of them for sure.

Wow.

So you just said you attract these.

I don't know what to call it.

Eccentric people.

Yeah.

Crazy people.

They're just drawn to you for some reason.

They are.

They are.

And it was like that on the streets, too.

It was fascinating.

It's always been a thing people have noticed about me, my friends, my family.

They're like, how do you attract these just eccentric, controversial, wild people?

And I think it's largely because I was kind of one of them, like a black sheep growing up, but they do,

man, they're, they're everywhere.

Even on the streets, you know, people would like gravitate to me.

And people with wild stories, wild stories, almost like they knew I was a writer and some, in some way, were trying to get their story told.

Interesting.

Must be something about your energy that gives them comfort to.

I think so.

To confide.

Maybe, yeah.

And as a writer, that's perfect.

Yeah.

Dude, you have to have empathy as a ghostwriter.

If you don't have empathy and if you're biased and if you're like, you lean more to the left or more to the right and you like impart your own biases to your craft, then you're doing a disservice to humanity, in my opinion, because stories, all stories should be told.

Yeah.

Powerful stories in the human experience, whether on the left or the right, whether.

you know you believe in aliens or you don't you know you're a human being and these human stories stories, I think, are what connect people and kind of elevate them.

Yeah, I didn't even think about it, but yeah, when I'm reading books, you probably want the ghoster to be objective as possible.

Yeah, you have to be just like a therapist, you know, which a lot of the interviews it felt like therapy for my clients because very cathartic experience, right?

Because they've never shared some of these stories, so to finally get it off their chest must be like so relieving.

Yeah, man.

I went to dinner last night with an old client of mine.

He's wonderful.

And he's sitting there talking to me.

He's like, you know what, Alex?

You know more about me than anybody.

Anybody.

He's like, because he kind of teared up a little bit during the chat, which he had done in the past.

And he was, he's such a stoic, like strong person.

And, but he would kind of have little breakdowns when he would realize what I had to realize to get my mind back was like, you went through some shit.

And that's okay.

And he, he, yeah, that's when he looked at me.

He was like, damn, Alex.

you know everything about me i said well hopefully not yeah you'd be surprised a lot of these ballers you know behind the scenes, they're dealing with some stuff.

So much stuff.

Yeah.

Because usually to get to that level, you had to overcome some big trauma or something.

Big time.

Big time.

So yeah, it must be relieving for them to share their stories finally.

I think so.

And

I don't really ghostwrite books anymore.

Not really.

I just focus on like

the movies and true crime books under my own name.

But I still, every once in a while, I'll find a phenomenal.

powerful story and I have to tell it.

I have to.

I learned so much from every single client that I've ever worked with.

I bet, Yeah.

What made you shift from writing more towards the cinematography side?

I totally, again, purely by accident.

I love movies.

I've always loved movies because I'm a storyteller and I love good stories.

And so

with the John McVeigh situation, that was an accident.

But then I did the Netflix film Running with the Devil.

And that kind of changed the whole trajectory of my career because then I started getting flooded.

It was the number one Netflix film in the world for two weeks.

And I, I was just flooded by people from

people all over the world with phenomenal stories.

And a lot of them were true crime stories because that story is rooted in true crime.

And so I took on one of them.

It was about the Long Island serial killer, this kid out of New York who believed that he was a almost victim.

And he had discovered an entire conspiracy.

And he, I believe, was the first person or the only person in American history to bring down a sitting district attorney and a chief of police.

And

anyway, that was a harrowing experience because my investigation

and his as well for sure uncovered that there were at least five men in positions of power, wealthy, blue bloods in that area who had been preying on women for decades.

And the number of victims, it's not what they're saying regarding Rex Herman, who I think largely is a Patsy.

I think has been

potentially framed by some of the actual killers who had every means to do so.

I think, yeah, sorry, not I think, but the evidence that I uncovered pointed to almost 100 victims

between this group who, very similar to the Smiley Face thing, were disparate individuals.

just doing their own thing.

They liked killing, but then they found each other and created this group, and they found camaraderie in killing.

And that's what I believe is happening with Smiley Face.

In fact, I don't really like to call them Smiley Face killers.

That's largely a product of the media.

I call them the river men because the one underlying

commonality between every single case is a river or a body of water.

A smiley face graffiti,

I think.

It's the very definition of what we call circumstantial evidence.

It's at some of the scenes, but not others.

There are X's on the eyes, and then sometimes there's not.

They're upside down, smiley faces.

There are frowny faces.

It's just, it muddies the waters of the investigation so much, in my opinion.

I don't like to rely on that as evidence.

I need hard facts.

But yeah, I do believe it is a group working together.

It's crazy something like that can exist in 2025 with all the cameras everywhere and satellites.

Like, it just blows my mind.

Well, I'll tell you why.

And you're absolutely right.

That's one of the biggest, you know, things that one thinks about when they consider if this is possible, because it seems impossible.

And it would be if these cases were examined as homicides from the start, but they never are.

And that's what I call the twisted brilliance of this group is that they know investigative methods.

They know law enforcement methodology.

They know

so

acutely what law enforcement does.

And if they frame these perfect crimes as drownings by just another drunk college kid, they're not examined as anything else.

Wow.

Not examined as any loophole.

Yeah, a bit huge.

It's a big blind spot.

And so what happens is in the

first couple of weeks once the body is found, typically weeks or even months after the abduction, and this is crazy, but usually the bodies show only a

couple of days of decomposition.

So they had been held for a long period of time somewhere else before they were found.

And I don't know, my

shit, where's that going?

The bodies are held for a couple days.

Yeah, bodies were held for several, for weeks or months, even.

And

it was a drowning.

Oh, yeah.

So, yeah, that's it.

Exactly.

So they, the lawn.

law enforcement sees it as a drowning.

They write it off as a drowning.

Within those first few weeks from the body recovery, like 90% of any potential evidence is gone.

They contaminate the scene.

They walk over it.

They don't, sometimes they don't even like put up the tape.

They don't cordon off the area.

They don't,

they miss, they miss evidence and signs that will be gone forever.

such as like surveillance tapes, you know, where the kid supposedly walked across a bridge.

Okay, where are the surveillance tapes of that?

If you don't look for it, those get taped over after a couple of months.

They're gone forever.

Wow.

So the killers, I believe, know this and they rely on it because once this is discovered, typically after the family hires their own private investigators and evidence starts popping up as a potential homicide,

the law enforcement agencies lose...

lose their shit and they're like, oh God, like that that's like the seventh kid over the past couple couple years now we are in deep water because we didn't investigate it properly and we could lose our jobs our pensions our career we could lose everything right so we have to cover this up a little bit and i'm not saying that that's what cops do i'm saying some precincts around the country they first of all they're they're overworked and underfunded right and stressed out and

I think in those situations, people accidentally miss out on clues and they don't cover it up.

They just, they miss out.

They miss it most of the time.

That's what the killers rely on.

But sometimes I think that there could be potential cover-ups or at least

or at least just outright denials.

Just, no, no, we know Nath Kidd showed up in the river, but it's just an accidental drowning.

I know that there was no water in the lungs.

but it was still an accidental drowning.

It was a dry drowning.

Okay.

I know these are a lot of dry drownings and, you know, the, you know, the facts don't really add up, but it's not a serial killer.

It's definitely not a serial killer.

So the killers rely on this.

And that's partly why they are so good at getting away with it.

But they don't, the cops don't want to take accountability because their jobs could be on the line, right?

Some, some of the cops, I would say the majority are amazing at what they do.

They're really good.

They're also overworked and

underpaid.

But sometimes, yeah, sometimes I think that is the case

sometimes with bad cops, like not

the majority.

Yeah, of like with any industry, there'll always be bad apples in any job.

In any industry, exactly.

Yeah, that's crazy.

So has it gotten to the point where federal agents are involved?

The FBI did a full report on the

alleged

murders in

La Crosse, I believe it was lacrosse.

And they said that they found no evidence of homicide.

Whoa.

That was a while ago.

What?

Yeah.

And I find that extremely hard to believe.

You got one, one of the kids was exsanguinated.

He was drained of blood.

What?

Yeah, he was drained of blood and in a way that the medical examiner could not even detect.

It's not like they, you know, they cut him right here in the jugular.

No, they couldn't detect how the blood had been drained from his entire body.

But based on the lividity of the corpse from the photographs that Kevin Gannon and his team looked at, it appeared that the

victim might have been held upside down, hanging upside down and drained of blood.

Jeez.

You know,

you got people

who

were found in the same location upriver, upstream.

Physically impossible.

You can't float upstream.

You know,

all these cases of...

you know, they're gone for two weeks to two months, but the

bodies only show signs of decomposition for a period of like 12 to 84 hours.

So where were they the rest of the time?

Well, they were clearly alive.

You know, just

there were articles of clothing and personal belongings that would show up at this Hiawatha statue in La Crosse and right by the river.

And the people would go missing.

And then their ball cap would show up hanging on a pole or, you know, their wallet would be found stacked very neatly on some of their clothing right there and just so many

bizarre uh circumstances surrounding these deaths so i just find it incredibly weird and suspicious that the fbi would write them off all his drownings that is weird man yeah and and since they're in the water i'm assuming the fingerprints are gone too right yeah yep exactly wow so it's definitely a group that really knows what they're doing and if they know how the law operates that makes me wonder if they have someone that used to be former law law involved you know know all that stuff potentially in my opinion whoever they are they're extremely intelligent and well organized i don't think they're just a riffraff ragtag group of nobodies i believe that

they know

exactly what they're doing yeah and they go after

oh go ahead i was just gonna say they have a hundred percent success rate yeah no one's been arrested right yeah and they go after children primarily uh not children but young adults young adults and yeah you know like college-age,

college-age males typically.

The case is in Austin, some of them are

older guys who are in their 30s and 40s.

I believe

that over the course of like 25 years, they've kind of changed their MO a little bit.

They are experimenting with different

demographics.

And because they're really good at what they do, they know that they can get away with it.

So they also know that they'll muddy the waters if they mix it up a little bit you know man this is nuts so this is going to be a netflix on netflix in a few years yeah i mean hopefully i um there

there is a a tv series being they're going to stop start shopping around like next week wow yeah they're going to start shopping around yeah this stuff gets a ton of attention the dahmer stuff was number one for a while it was huge man yeah america has a really weird fascination with the the dark and the various even the luigi stuff that was blowing up.

It was huge.

And girls loved them.

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah, you're right.

But also, I think we live in a society that is just so,

I don't know, somewhat repressed.

Like we,

we all know that there are people at the top who are in control of a lot of

aspects of society and of our lives.

And I think when someone goes against that and exposes it,

they they could experience some level of martyrdom like Luigi did because, and I'm not saying killing is good.

That's not what I'm saying.

But what I am saying is that when someone exposes corruption in a huge way,

people do come together and they want to stand behind that person.

Yeah.

I mean, the healthcare industry.

Yeah, that's a dark industry.

Yeah, agreed.

I mean, insurance is so expensive and they don't cover much.

No, so many of these.

institutions, they benefit financially from denying you help.

Right.

From denying help.

They make more when they do that.

Completely.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's messed up, dude.

And then this whole missing children stuff, I don't know if you saw this, but Trump found a bunch of them recently.

No.

Yeah.

So there's like

hundreds of thousands of missing children, speculation about a child trafficking ring.

Whoa.

And Trump just found a ton of them.

Yeah.

We'll have to link that in the video.

Yeah.

That's fascinating.

I haven't been paying attention to the news lately, but.

Oh, yeah.

I try not to, to be honest.

But Twitter is like my news these days.

Yeah, good.

I just go on X because I feel like that's more real information.

Yeah, because so much of our information now that is force-fed to us,

it's behind a paywall or it's owned by this select group of people who want to tell you just what they want to tell you.

Absolutely.

I remember seeing a lot of negative PR about John McAfee, actually.

Yeah.

I never knew what to believe, but they definitely did not like him.

No, man, because he had all their secrets.

Right.

With the antivirus stuff, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Allegedly, that's what he did.

He said that he built a backdoor in McAfee Antivirus, which was the most ubiquitous antivirus software in the world.

And a lot of people had it.

A lot of very powerful agencies had it.

And so, according to him, he had the goods on all of them.

Wow.

Yeah.

I wonder if that will ever get released one day.

It's like the Epstein list.

Dude, I was terrified that I would get it in my

like after he died.

I was like, I would check the mail and just be like, oh, yeah.

Oh, fuck.

I wonder if he had a thing set up where it's like, yo, if I die, like, send this to someone or something.

He supposedly did.

He had five.

Oh, really?

Yep.

He had five attorneys at five different law firms all around the world.

And he would always say to the people who allegedly want him dead,

this, this is going to happen.

If I die within one hour, my dead man Switch will be released.

But it was really interesting the way he passed away.

It's like, here's a guy who supposedly had all this information.

And

that was what protected him, kept him alive, according to him.

And then he was extradited.

He was going to get extradited to America, where potentially he could sing like a bird and get a commuted sentence or something make a deal a backroom deal with some powerful people and say hey this is what i have it's gone now or you you can have it if i can get five years in prison you know or whatever or um

and anyway

hours after it was announced that he was being extradited he just dead of an apparent suicide And he's made videos before that saying he would never do that.

Oh, yeah, he got a tattoo.

Right.

He got a tattoo about it.

Yeah.

He just spoke to his wife recently, right before that, and he was in good spirits.

He was happy.

He was, you know, he was,

yeah, they felt good about the case.

They felt good about it.

That's interesting.

All right.

So you, yeah.

What was your theory?

My theory is that if he did have a dead man switch, somehow

some really good agents or

a really great team dispatched to these five places, found all of the dead man switches in one fell swoop.

They had to do it within an hour.

So we're talking like five different teams in five different locations all around the world dispatched at the same moment to intercept these

in order to prevent that from being leaked to the public.

I mean, it never got out, so they did something, right?

Yeah, unless he was full of shit, which he was a lot of the time.

I feel like that, though, he definitely would have prepared.

I think he would too.

Yeah, knowing what I knew about John, I believe that he had something.

Yeah, that's crazy.

So you were pretty shocked when it happened.

When he died?

Yeah.

I wasn't really because someone had told me that was going to happen.

Oh, really?

And I was surprised it didn't make the cut for the Netflix doc because I said this.

I told a story about this man that hit me up one time after I stopped working with John.

Yeah.

And he said to me, Alex.

I have a story that could change things.

And he said, we've been watching you for a while and we think you're the perfect writer to write this book.

And he had my attention right from that because I love change.

I love, I love truth.

I love exposing the truth.

And

that's what I do as a writer.

It's my thing.

And he knew that.

And

anyway, long story short, he flew to where I was living at the time in a private jet.

He's a very wealthy, very powerful guy, allegedly the co- creator of Bitcoin.

Wow.

One of the original founders of Anonymous, all this stuff.

He said that he had blackmailed Epstein.

He blackmailed the blackmailer.

That's how you know you're on a bad level.

Wild.

And he had all these secrets.

And

one of the craziest stories I've ever heard.

He was later profiled in a New York Times piece.

It was called like Jeffrey Epstein

and

something

blacklist or something.

I can give you the link.

Yeah, we'll link it in the video.

He was anonymously profiled by these journalists.

But fascinating guy, fascinating story.

He knew where I was.

He had an earpiece in when I was sitting at the park, and I texted him on Telegram.

And he just looked from like 100 yards away and stared right at me.

No way.

The fuck.

He said, yeah, I had a team run a reconnaissance.

Holy shit.

We saw you come here 15 minutes ago, recognize your tattoos.

Dude, it's like a movie scene.

It was wild.

I paid all in cash.

You had this big bill fold and just getting wasted the whole night.

And he had some dark shit going on.

Yeah.

I've been through some stuff.

But anyway, it was, I was, I was imbibing with him too.

We were drinking the best scotch.

And he had originally offered me a quarter million for the book.

And now it ballooned into like a million dollars cash or diamonds or gold or crypto, whatever I wanted.

He was like, yeah, I'll fly it in here tomorrow.

Holy

yes, but I need the book done within a month.

And it was just some crazy,

like, like James Bond shit, not stuff that I'm used to.

And anyway, we were talking at this Irish pub.

Sorry.

And I said, said,

we were talking about John.

And he told me how he had blackmailed John in the past.

Blackmailed a lot of people for money.

I said, what do you think will become of John?

And he said, oh, he'll die in prison.

He'll commit suicide.

And I said,

John, the most egomaniacal man I have ever met?

No, that's not him.

That's not what he does.

He would never commit suicide.

He said, I didn't say you wouldn't have any help.

And he said the same thing about Epstein.

This was months before Epstein went to that prison in New York.

And I asked him, like, how do you know these things?

And he just looked at me and he was like, because, Alex, I'm in a position to know.

Sure enough, that happened.

And people

call bullshit on that.

And that's fine.

That's fine.

But I have people from that pub who are friends of mine who

saw the guy.

And they saw his back profile, his front profile.

It's the same profile as the guy.

in the New York Times piece.

It's the same story.

I told this story to some people before it even came out in the New York Times.

It's the same guy.

He He would drink Whistlepig,

same drink, described exactly the same.

I think he wore the same damn outfit for the New York Times.

So it's just, yeah, it was crazy because

that stuff came to pass.

It came true.

And I called the people, the producers of the Netflix doc the morning I found out that John had allegedly committed suicide.

I was like, guys, oh my God, like, I said this.

I said this in the interview for the doc.

And they're like, I know, I know.

This is, this is crazy.

This is really crazy.

It didn't make the cut.

And I went to London and I talked with the guys.

We all went out for Guinness and stuff.

We do that whenever I show up and just kind of shoot the shit, talk about our projects.

I was like, guys,

why didn't that,

why didn't that really important snippet?

But they didn't, their editor or something looked over it.

Because there's so much footage.

These guys were parsing through hundreds of hours of footage from all of us people, all of us interviewees, and they missed it.

Do you believe that, though?

That's actually a good question.

Yeah, because I don't know.

Like that seems pretty coincidental.

These guys, I trust them so much.

They're wonderful people.

And I think they were a little bummed when I mentioned it.

I know the director, he was like, are you serious?

I don't remember that.

But I know for a fact I said it because there are three big revelations I gave and that was one of them.

But yeah, I don't know.

It didn't make the cut, but hey, maybe that was for the best for me.

Who knows?

Yeah.

could have put a target on your back, right?

Well, now I'm just saying an apology.

Your 12 million followers are no big, it's fine.

I can see why people are skeptical because there's a lot of people that want the Bitcoin founder to be anonymous, and they don't believe anytime someone says they know the founder.

That's like a whole thing in the crypto space.

Yeah, it's like Kaiser Sose.

Like you, there's got to be some mystique about this because it could be the most, one of the most powerful.

grassroots movements of all time.

I saw a funny clip of, you know, Scotty Pippen, the basketball player.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

He was speaking at a Bitcoin conference with Michael Saylor next to him, and he said, you know, Michael Saylor, right?

No, I know the name, though.

He's a huge Bitcoin holder.

Like, oh, no, I do know.

Yeah, MicroStrategies.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, they have tons of Bitcoin.

And they were speaking on a panel, and Scotty said, yeah, I met the founder, Bitcoin.

Michael gave him the nastiest look.

Really?

The nastiest side eye I've ever seen.

Why?

Because he didn't believe him?

That or like he's like, don't say it type stuff.

Who knows?

Yeah, it could be that.

It could be that.

I would prefer these people people not to be known.

There's theories that they're involved with the government.

There's all sorts of

wild theories with Bitcoin.

Yeah, there are.

And I can't prove definitively that this guy was being honest with me about the things he said.

But all I'm doing is just relaying it.

And what did happen did give me some level of credibility about the guy because what he said did occur, you know?

Yeah, it's hard to predict that stuff at the time, too.

Yeah.

Like, I didn't see anyone predicting it.

Dude, Epstein was like, no one thought Epstein would be arrested.

He wasn't even known globally at that time until he was arrested and sent to New York, you know, sent to the prison in New York.

So I knew about Epstein because I'd been in John's circle.

So I had all that conspiracy shit.

Like, he had a lot of that that he talked about.

I bet he did.

Yeah.

Did you end up getting that book done within a month?

No, no.

So it was a whole weird thing.

I started getting red flags because we were supposed to meet for breakfast.

Yeah.

And he texted me in the morning.

He said, Alex, sorry, I'm not going to make it, man.

I got to go put out some fires.

I said, Okay, I hope you're safe.

And he's like, Yeah, it's all good, but I'll be back tomorrow.

Tomorrow came, he didn't show up.

And I said, What's going on, man?

And

he would read it and not respond.

And then I saw John started posting all this stuff.

This guy,

he had a nickname.

He had a nickname.

It was Withers.

And John posted about Withers, and he started panicking.

He started threatening to release the home address of an FBI agent.

And like all this stuff was going on when John was having a meltdown.

He mentioned the location where Withers and I met by name.

He went into the place.

He was like, Yeah, next up,

Withers,

this location.

I'm not going to say where it is because one of the places that I frequent.

And

the FBI agent and stuff.

So he knew of my meeting with Withers.

And my thought was that Withers was maybe going back to John and saying, hey, I talked to your old writer,

talked about some crazy shit that he knew about you.

We should talk.

And I think John maybe panicked.

But then later on, it was at that point that I told Withers, I was like, look, I don't know what's going on.

I don't like it though.

I like what you're doing.

You're doing incredible things.

I wish you well.

And I still do because

he, you know, he has a militia supposedly that rescues trafficked women and children from all over the world.

That's cool.

You know, he's a badass and he does really good things for us, for the common person.

So I said that and I was like, I'm going to bounce.

He read it, didn't respond, never heard from him again.

And then shortly thereafter, John started.

posting about him on his Twitter, casting him in a good light.

So talking about whether he's in a good way.

He said something about

there's a certain CIA program,

it was Project Monarch or something like that, or no, it was the one where supposedly the CIA infiltrated Hollywood.

Um, I haven't heard that one, yeah, I forget what it was called.

I'm sorry, I haven't looked into this for

it was a program, and he cited that program and said that people like him and Withers are the ones who are being targeted by these media agencies and cast in bad light and just because they want to squash the truth of their stories.

Yeah, I have to think what that name was.

That's interesting.

So were you working with John at that time or did you leave?

I had left.

Yeah, I found out he did something unforgivable, a few things that were unforgivable.

At that point,

year in, like he had fired everyone.

He was like losing his mind.

He was saying that everybody was a spy.

We got some.

I mean, there probably were some.

Yeah, there were some.

Dude, we got locked in a room in Hatteras, on Hatteras Island in this mansion.

And

the security guards stood in front of the doors with their guns.

And he was walking around with his firearm,

his pistol.

And he was just like scratching his head.

He had open scabs and sores all over him.

And he said, this is what he said to us.

He said, I received intelligence from the FBI.

He's like, I am, like, I have a lot of deep contacts with the FBI.

He said, I have FBI immunity too.

He said, someone in here is a rat and no one is leaving this room until I find out who the rat is.

Oh, my God.

Yeah, here I am, dude.

I'm the writer, right?

I'm the journalist.

I'm like, yep, gonna die.

I mean, you're gonna take me out back and put me down.

Like, cause the writer is always the one who gets looked at as, oh, you're the rat, you know?

Right.

But I have a big sense of honor and I sign NDAs for a living, you know?

So it's like, no, I'm not a fucking rat.

How'd you talk your way out of that one?

I was pretty, I was pretty forceful with John

because one of the girls, the girls were like crying.

There were like 15, 16 of us in this room.

And this girl started crying.

She was so afraid.

And you could just see on everybody's faces the dread because they didn't anticipate, they didn't know what to anticipate.

They didn't know what was going to happen because you got this unhinged,

like brilliant, drug-addicted, alcoholic, multi-millionaire who thinks he's living in a James Bond film legit um and his film would be better than a James Bond film honestly knowing John and he's walking around paranoid with a gun so I was just I was over it it's so much cloak and dagger stuff going on that I had seen up to that point and our lives being threatened our phones being taken and tapped.

I found out when we had to give up our phones to go on that trip, he just hacked all of our phones and and listening to everything we said.

Yeah, Jimmy Watson came up to me.

He's like, Yeah, so told your girlfriend you went to the beach today.

I said, How the hell do you know that?

Wow.

He said, Well, John told me.

I said, Okay, well, I didn't say where we are.

Can you guys not hack my shit?

That made you want to leave, probably, right?

No, I didn't really care about that.

I had nothing to hide, but what made me want to leave was John just

being so erratic.

And

I told John, I was like, Listen, man, like,

we're leaving.

We're not sticking in this room.

I don't know who the rat is.

You're not going to find out who the rat is.

Like, John, like, people got to go to the bathroom.

You know, like, we can't just stay here.

You got to let us go.

Oh, so there were hours that were going by.

I don't remember how long it was.

I think it was like an hour.

It wasn't that long.

But, like, imagine like an hour of people thinking they might get shot.

Must have felt longer than an hour.

It felt longer than an hour.

Yeah.

And he did acquiesce and he eventually was like, all right, well, I am going to find out who the rat is.

I am going to find out.

I'm like, yeah, yeah, sure, great.

Awesome.

Good for you.

And he never found out.

Oh, he did.

Oh, he did?

Allegedly, it was one of the girls.

Oh, wow.

According to him and according to some McVeigh associates later on who told me, I just couldn't see it.

I just couldn't see her being a rat.

Like,

what was it, like a teenager or?

No, it was this crypto girl who she was, she was, had a bit of a following.

on Twitter and she was into crypto.

She was from England and she had a relationship with one of t mcfee's closest advisors and friends he was like kind of running all of his crypto holdings and stuff and making some money yeah the kid he he told he told us that he got like hacked for 50 million dollars one time and he like didn't even break a sweat wow oh he got like sim swapped or whatever yeah yeah something like that i don't remember what it was but it was just the the fact that 50 million was nothing to this 25 year old kid that's how much money he had yeah

he had a lot of money i think tons wow he must have got in early on bitcoin or something i think yeah he did yeah he did he had a wild story but i honestly i haven't really looked into these people

not for a while i wrote that book uh the man who hacked the world and that was like a therapy session with myself i bet and and then i just put it on the shelf i'm like all right i finally told the story it feels really good now let's move forward yeah i'm sure you had a lot of opportunities come from that book yeah a lot actually and i didn't expect that at all and

yeah that's another thing some people say oh he's like full of shit he's just trying to sell books like i make a couple bucks per sale of the i don't care about money i haven't been doing any of this for money since i began since i got my mind back it's not about that at all it's about exposing the truth and i think helping people you know for me the the reason i'm so passionate about whisk we hunt serial killers is because I have been in those rooms with loved ones, parents, and partners who have lost their kids, who have lost their boyfriends, you know and and their brothers and

and you see the pain in their eyes and you feel it man on a fundamental level and you realize that for whatever crazy reason you might have been put in a position that has some semblance of hope to give them um

to give them

closure and to help prevent other people from dying you know yes

I've spent like a hundred thousand dollars on this project since I started.

I've invested, I haven't made a dime, you know, I think it's going to change with the like TV show and stuff and the iHeartRadio thing.

But if I wanted to do it for the money, I would be making money or trying to capitalize off it.

Yeah.

And I think that's what a lot of people in true crime do.

And I have a great level of disgust for those people.

And it's why a lot of times the truth of these stories, they never come out because they're hidden behind a fucking paywall, man.

Like behind these people wanting to get a payday.

And they have access to evidence and testimony but they want their their big netflix movie they want their big hollywood production they want their new york times best-selling book and they're not going to give you an inch unless they think they're going to get that interesting it's really wrong and that's that's the toxicity that i've experienced in the true crime community, which a lot of people are amazing, especially like my friends who are citizen sleuths and law enforcement, who just,

they, they are so passionate

but then you meet the people who detract from this space and those are the ones lording over evidence and

just living by their ego wow i did not know that was going on in true crime space it's huge it was like that with the list thing long island cereal killer case yeah had a potential netflix deal um i mean we had the producers from the MACVI doc that I was in on the scene with me in New York City while I was investigating, interviewing people because they had a deal with Netflix.

But then Rex got arrested and everything went away.

But my main source on that story, he

supposedly was sitting on bombshell evidence.

Like, I'm saying hard evidence, implicating the group, implicating the very killers that we wanted to be put away.

But he wouldn't give it up.

He wouldn't give it up with assurances that he would make money, that he would get X amount of money and all this amazing stuff, and get the Netflix deal.

Like he was just hanging on to it.

And this kid stole evidence from another one of our sources, stole his evidence.

The dude was wrongly convicted of the murder of his girlfriend

because he and his girlfriend had discovered that a lot of these girls going missing were call girls.

They would go missing.

working with this certain individual's prostitution ring, who was one of the killers allegedly.

and they put those pieces together.

So, the guy who was in a position to do it

had her killed.

He was supposed to be killed, but the dude ran out of bullets and so

framed the living source, source, for the murder of the girlfriend.

He's in prison right now.

What?

He's in prison.

And he held the evidence?

So, my guy, my old client on the list story, my main source, he stole the evidence from this kid who supposedly he was trying to help, took his evidence and kept it

for himself because he wants to use it.

Wow.

And he said, God directed me to do this.

And that guy's in prison because of that.

That guy is not in prison for that.

He's in prison now for Grand Theft Auto.

Oh, God.

My main source.

Oh, sorry.

The guy.

Yeah, the other source is in prison for

like 25 to life, man.

And he had the evidence before the guy took it.

He directed me to go get it for him.

And I just wasn't in the state.

So my source went to get it instead.

And my source is the one who just, again, was just greedy, man, blew up the whole thing, walked away from our book deal, had a meltdown on me.

And yeah, that story dies with these people.

Yeah, because there's no other evidence.

Yeah, it's a sad truth.

That's super sad.

That's the truth of true crime.

That's what I also want to kind of talk about more so is that

There is a dark side of this space that is fueled by ego and paranoia.

And it obfuscates facts and evidence and details, and it prevents crimes from getting solved.

And it, in effect, allows these killers to keep killing.

Like these people, they don't realize the unconscionable behavior that they're exhibiting.

They are allowing more murders to occur.

with their negligence.

Wow.

Which is crazy when you think about it, but it's true.

That's dark, man.

Yeah.

Yeah, they don't even think about that, though.

They're just worried about the bag.

Yeah, they are.

Yeah, and I'm not about that at all, man.

No thanks.

I mean, if you were, you could have made tens of millions by now, probably.

Yeah, who cares, man?

Like,

I mean, I guess a lot of people can do that.

It's always a balance, though.

You need to make a living, but.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I do.

You know, I make a good living, but I don't have to cheat or hide or fleece people for it.

Agreed.

I'm the same way.

If it comes at the expense of others, I don't want part in that.

I don't want to be scamming.

I don't want to be making money in the wrong ways.

That's why I think you are in a really good path of alignment like you're on your path you you've been doing this for two years you said you've already blown up you've had some amazing guests you've shared some incredible stories you're doing it man and when you are on your path like fulfilling your life's purpose and i think helping other people and not for your netflix movie or for your big payday but just because you're you care you know you you love telling stories you love getting messages out there which ultimately help others um these things have a way of coming back to you.

100%.

In a positive way.

Yeah, I'm big on karma.

Yeah, I invested 100K, like you said, too, with yours.

I was losing money the first six months.

Yep.

You know, I could have tried to make this a money grab or whatever, but no, I just like sharing stories like you.

Just different format with podcasting.

But actually, true crime podcasts are, I believe, the number one genre.

for podcasts.

Dude, they're huge.

They're massive.

They're massive.

Yeah, I couldn't believe it because I'm not really privy to that world, but the views they get are insane.

It is insane.

And I want to kind of, I want to to harness that that power and the power of network effects with whisk with we hunt serial killers because what i'm trying to do with that project it's called we hunt serial killers right but the we isn't me and my team we are not the we like the we my message is my message is that the we is all of us like the we it's the eyewitnesses it's the family members it's the law enforcement, the private investigators, the medical examiners, the people who think that there's more to the story.

I think if we all work together in some capacity under a common like umbrella, under one umbrella,

we have a way better shot at helping shed light on these cases and potentially even helping to solve them if we work together.

I love that.

I mean, man, they say that about the Reddit detectives.

Those guys can find out some crazy stuff.

Oh, it's incredible, man.

They're very good at what they do.

Yeah.

They could take any image and find out where that image was taken.

Yep.

It's mind-blowing.

Yep.

It is mind-blowing.

And I want those people to reach out to me

because at the end of the day,

I want WISC to be its own entity and to be kind of autonomous.

Without me, I don't need to be at the forefront of this.

Nobody does.

There doesn't need to be a face at the front of WISC, but I would love for it to be

like

just this organization that works together, shares evidence.

and information like web sleuths, but in a different way.

Yeah.

Power of community, man.

Did you watch that cat killer thing on Netflix?

Oh my God.

That was awesome.

Fuck with cats.

Yeah, yeah.

Exactly.

Like that, but on a grand scale.

Right.

That was a phenomenal movie.

Phenomenal.

To those people who,

and that woman, especially, who's like the star of the show.

Like, those guys have big hearts.

And I want to see more of that in this community.

Agreed.

If we all come together, we could definitely lower the numbers, right?

Oh, 100%.

Crime.

I mean, imagine if,

let's say,

Let's say this message goes viral again.

It went viral with this kid, Ken Walks.

I think that's his name on TikTok in Chicago.

And he was shedding light on the story and it went viral for a bit and then it died down.

But if it goes viral, if it

harnesses the power of social media and network effects and spreads the message that, yes,

these are homicides.

These should be looked at, examined as homicides from the beginning.

like tighten your community,

have neighborhood watches, put fences over those rivers, you know, and in that park park area at Lady Bird Lake, where I've been to a bunch of times.

Work together, share information, speak to your local law enforcement, help in any way you can get these solved.

You know,

if we have a spotlight on this story, then

the killers, they can't continue.

Yeah, it'll make it way harder, right?

It will be way more difficult because then those surveillance tapes are being checked.

They're looking where these kids are being thrown into buses and vans and stuff.

They're actually seeing, they're actually accumulating evidence from the beginnings of the investigation instead of not even treating it as an investigation.

So we have to turn the tables against that rhetoric and we have to

just let that story be told for what it is and have the community, all the community, come together and work together to prevent this from happening further.

Yeah.

Yeah, that community should get in a group somehow, whether it's on Facebook or some platform and all band together.

There are some, you know, there are, especially on like Reddit, you have forums uh there's a private facebook group for the austin uh deaths there's one in boston you know you have all these like disparate uh pockets of people sharing information but they're just little pockets we need to open that whole thing up and have it be under one umbrella one thing absolutely man well dude what's next for you this has been really fun

um

What is next?

Any documentaries coming out?

Oh, yeah.

The Mark Wahlberg thing.

I wrote a book called The California Kid with Owen Hansen.

He's a USC athlete turned

kingpin for cartel.

And he was in prison.

He's out now.

And Mark Wahlberg did a docuseries on that story.

And I'm in that.

It comes out in June, I believe.

Nice.

On,

am I allowed to say where?

I don't know.

On a big major streamer.

Okay.

It's coming out in June.

And then, you know, we got this iHeartRadio thing about the Rivermen, about the killers.

And

hopefully getting a TV show very soon because they're pitching it next week.

Nice.

Can't wait, man.

I'll be following your journey.

Thank you, man.

I appreciate it.

I'll be following yours.

Dude, it's going to be fun to let's do this once a year, man.

I'd love to.

Yeah, we're storytellers.

We got some storytellers.

Man, that was a quick hour for me.

To be honest, I could see how you went five hours with Mike Ritland now.

Oh, yeah.

That was so much fun.

Yeah.

And it was so easy, too.

He's such a good interview.

You are, too.

Thanks.

You guys are real authentic people.

So you make...

the people on your show just feel comfortable opening up to you.

Yeah.

I mean, I want to be able to sleep at night.

I don't want to put on a facade.

Like, it's hard to live that lifestyle because I used to in high school.

I used to pretend to be people I wasn't.

I did too for a bit.

Yeah, trying to fit in, you know.

But no,

it's not sustainable to live that way.

No, you have to be authentic in your work and your relationships and just who you are as a human being.

And I think that's when all the magic happens.

Yeah, absolutely, man.

Well, I can't wait to follow your journey.

We'll link all your documentaries in the video as well.

Yeah, thanks for coming on, Alex.

Thanks for watching, guys.

Check this stuff out.

See you next time.