The Shocking Truth About Mob Life in Vegas | Anthony Ruggiano DSH #1168

He looked and he looks at the lawyer and he tells the lawyer, before we, now it's time to talk money, he tells the lawyer, got a razor blade on you?

The lawyer looks at him, goes, what do I need a razor blade for?

He said, because all we got left is blood.

Take our blood.

We have no more money.

All I got left is

blood.

So he took a lot less.

All right, guys, we got Anthony back on the show.

Hasn't been been to Vegas in, you said, what, 30 years?

40.

I haven't been to Vegas since 1977.

October of 1977.

Dude, so there's a lot of new buildings and stuff out there.

Oh, my God.

You know, I was at Caesar's Palace

yesterday or yesterday.

And when I, so let me tell you how I got to Vegas.

So I got married October 2nd in New York.

Congrats.

And Arnil De La Croce, who was the underboss of the Gambino family, was in prison at the time.

But another maid member, member, Joe the Cat, had a travel agent.

And Arnil's present to me was my honeymoon in Vegas.

So he sent me, I'm 24 years old, so he sent me to Vegas and it was Caesar's Palace.

And when I got in there, I was treated like forget, right this way, Mr.

Ruggiano, because they knew, because back then, Vegas was all mobbed.

And across the street from Caesar's was just like a little strip mall.

Now there's beautiful buildings and it's just completely, totally different.

Yeah.

Totally.

When did the mob get ran out of Vegas?

Do you know what time frame?

I would say sometime in the 80s.

Well, I was there in 77, they had it on lockdown.

I mean, I was treated like O'Neill sent me there.

The guys, the people

in Cesar's house knew I was coming.

They were waiting for me.

I had a big suite.

I had a credit line of like $2,000 in the casino, which was a ton of money back then.

And everywhere I went, I went

all the shows, I got right in.

I had no issues.

I would say

the 80s, you know, around in the going into the 80s.

And then by the 90s, they were gone.

And now it's, they're totally out of it.

I heard some might be on the old strip, the downtown one, but I don't know.

I don't know.

I don't, you know, listen, the mob is never going to go away.

It's never going to go.

I mean, it was built with Teamster money.

We all know that.

You know,

Tony Provenzano, I actually met him once on a...

I was getting transferred out of Greenhaven and he was getting transferred out of Greenhaven.

And when the correction officer put me on the bus, the prison bus, he was there and he saw me we didn't know each other but he must have known an Italian and I sat down next to him and I told him I was Fat Andy's son and he heard you know he knew my old man he goes oh how is he and bop bop bop and we had we had a conversation and I was dying to ask him about Hoffa

you know like

it was like on the tip of my tongue but you know I just couldn't do it and uh and he I had I was getting transferred to this place Arthur Kill in Staten Island and he he was on the bus with me the whole way he was I forgot where they were sending him, but I was dying to ask him because that's how this place was built.

I mean, that's a fact.

I mean, it was all Teamster money.

I mean, the movie Casino pretty much had,

that's how it was.

I mean, it was pretty accurate.

That was pretty accurate.

That's a good movie.

Without a doubt.

That was definitely accurate.

I mean,

for sure.

Is there anyone alive right now that knows where Hoffa is, you think?

You know, that's a good question.

Somebody asked me that about two weeks ago.

I don't think so.

I think they're all gone.

Damn.

You know, they're all gone.

And if they are alive, they got to be like close to 100.

There's people that think they know or like somebody told me this.

And so, like the movie The Irishman,

that was, I mean, some of that was true.

I mean, I actually knew the Russell Buffalino, the guy that Joe Pesky played.

He was actually good friends with my family, my father, and his partner.

And we used to go to his Christmas show.

He had a Christmas show every year, a Christmas party in Pittston every year.

And the last time I went to his Christmas party, tony bennett sang at the christmas party uh he was the first person when i got married in 77 he was actually the first person to come to my wedding in brooklyn he was the first person to show up he was in on all that you know with the hoffa with the vegas and all that but that movie the irishman he the part that denier played he wasn't involved like that that that you know that's just stuff he made up but i don't believe that he was involved in it.

I don't think anybody knows where he is.

My personal opinion is they dissolved his body.

I don't think he's buried anywhere.

My old man, that's what he used to tell me.

They probably dissolved it because it's funny

because Russell, you know, Russell Buffalino, the guy that's in the movie that Pesky played, we went to his Christmas party, like I said, every year.

And he had a factory

that we toured with him, me, my father, and a bunch of us.

And it was like a chemical factory.

And there were these big vats of chemicals.

And teasingly, my father, Fat Andy, we're walking through the

warehouse and we passed the vats.

And my old man turns around and tells him how many people did you throw in that vat.

It was like a joke, you know, like a mob joke.

So, you know, maybe Hoffman went in the vat.

Who knows?

It could be very possible.

Definitely possible, man.

Irishman, that was a decent one.

It was a bit slow.

Yeah.

You know, that movie was long.

Yeah.

Do they consult with mafia guys when they're making movies like that?

Yeah, you know, they're consultants like

Ford's Casino.

Yeah, they guys, not guys that are in, like guys like me that cooperated, you know, that aren't that aren't in it, but know about it.

Yeah, they'll bring us in as consultants.

So like Sammy the Bulls working on something, I might be a consultant on that.

Definitely.

Yeah, he's making a show, right?

Yeah.

And like, but a lot of the actors too, you know, people don't on this realize, like a lot of actors grew up in neighborhoods that were run by the mob, like De Niro, Peschy, these guys grew up around wise guys.

So they know how to portray them because they saw them from when they were kids.

Scorskesi grew up in downtown Manhattan.

I mean, there was a mob club on every corner.

Yeah.

So definitely, and Sopranos, mob guys would definitely talk to for that because that was pretty much

had they had everything down planning.

The Sopranos, without a doubt.

So that show was really accurate, Sopranos?

Very.

Outside of him seeing a psychologist.

The mob doesn't deal like that.

Do you want me to tell you how the mob deals with psychiatric issues?

They kill you, right?

There was a guy named Vito Guzzo.

He was a maid member of the Colombo family.

He was good friends with my father.

Back in the day in the 70s, he actually had,

he probably was bipolar, but nobody knew what that was.

And he actually had a breakdown, a nervous breakdown, and he went into a psych ward.

Damn.

And he came out and he was okay.

And then he had another one.

The second one, he went back into the psych ward.

Now, this is the this is like the early 80s.

He got out the second time and he disappeared.

Wow.

So that's how the mob dealt with people that had psychiatric issues.

So if the sopranos were real, outside of that, I mean, no mob boss is going to see a

psychiatrist or a therapist.

It's not going to happen.

Which is pretty crazy because I'd imagine a lot of mob guys have a ton of trauma from what they're witnessing and they can't even express it, right?

You got to keep a straight face.

Yeah, without a doubt.

Yeah.

You know, not even take, you know, if you're taking prozac, you better not tell nobody.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And even the kids, listen, the kids, my, my daughter is traumatized.

My daughter, she's a therapist.

When my daughter was a kid, she was about eight years old.

I was in prison and she found a box, a cardboard box in the basement with newspaper articles in it.

And she was read, you know, she was eight.

She knew how to read.

And she started reading the newspaper articles and they were about murders, like my father's murders, the murder I was involved in.

So she's reading these articles about her loving grandfather and her father involved in murders.

And she didn't even know how to process it.

She didn't even know how to talk to anybody about it.

Now, in her late 20s, she's processing it.

Now, she's the kids in therapy.

Wow.

Because she, you know, her grandfather, my father, was so affectionate.

And to think that he did crimes like that, like she's the kids traumatized.

Yeah.

So your father was living two lives, right?

Without a doubt.

You know,

I did a podcast yesterday, and they asked me to explain to them my father.

My father, so I told them my father at home never reprimanded me.

And

I was a truant.

I was playing hookie.

And he never had a father.

His father died when he was eight years old in 1932.

So he never had a father to reprimand him.

So he never reprimanded us.

He was an affectionate father.

He took me to baseball games.

He taught me how to play baseball.

You know, what fathers do?

He was a good son.

He was a good brother, a good uncle.

But in the street, he was a gangster.

He was a killer.

but at home he was like a teddy bear you know and he was like a pushover at home that's crazy two different people yeah but when he walked out of the house he was fat andy but when he was in the house he was you know dah

yeah so what age did you start realizing wow what is going on here

i didn't know i always knew something was up you know i just didn't know what when i was a little kid i knew that things were different i knew that when i walked in a room with him the air you know the the atmosphere changed but i didn't know why when i was like 13 years old and i drifted off my block, I found out about the mob stuff through the older guys in the neighborhood.

They would point to me and say, that's Fat Andy's son.

That's Fat Andy's son.

And that's when I started learning about it.

And then me and him started talking about it.

And he took me around and introduced me to people.

Now, my kid brother,

he found out about it through the newspaper.

So

my father had gotten indicted in Brooklyn on this.

They bugged the trailer and he got caught on some tapes and he got indicted and it was on the front page of the newspaper.

So when I came home one day, my brother said,

is that true what they said about daddy?

It's in the newspaper.

And I go, yeah.

And he had a baseball game that night.

And my father went to all his baseball games.

So when I went upstairs, my father said to me,

did Albert read the newspaper?

And I said, yeah.

So now we went back downstairs.

And my father looked at my brother and he says, you read the newspaper?

And my brother said, yeah.

My brother was about

11.

Yeah.

and my brother said yeah and he goes you still want me to come to the baseball game with you

and my brother said of course i want you to come to the baseball game so we all get in the car the three of us we get in the car we go to the baseball game now none of the fathers knew my old man was a wise guy they just thought he was like andy you know a baseball you know father you know a kid so nobody knew we pulled up at the baseball game the little league game and they mobbed him.

The fathers came right off the stand.

Man, we didn't know.

You know, they were like up his ass they mobbed him we're to the point where they actually later on they asked him for favors and he got a couple of their sons later on in years and like the copper disunion the electrical union wow yeah so uh but that that's how me and my brother found out about him yeah that's wow crazy you said they they bugged his rv did you have methods for detecting bugs and stuff you know they they

bugged his house not really they did my father we never we people did but we never did we never checked around my father had a house in Florida.

They had they had their kitchen bug.

He used to like to cook.

Yeah.

And he used to talk to guys in the kitchen.

They put a bug in the kitchen light.

Wow.

When he went on trial, they had his meatball recipe on the bug.

He was telling an undercover FBI agent in the kitchen how to make meatballs.

Holy.

We didn't know the guy was an FBI agent.

And he's in the kitchen telling the FBI agent how to make meatballs while they're discussing the crime.

So when they played the tape in between him discussing the crime, you heard his meatball recipe.

That was, everybody got a kick out of that.

That's hilarious.

Was the undercover part of the mob or he was just...

Yeah, so what happened was there was this guy, Joe Doggs.

He was in Florida.

It was this guy, Joe Ianuzzi, but his nickname was Joe Doggs.

He was an informant, and he was bringing FBI agents to my father.

And my father was loaned Shylock in them, which is loaning them money for, and that's how he got caught up in it.

And then

they opened up an after-hour, like a gambling club in Riviera Beach up in Florida and my father's or had an office in there and

when he turned on the light the camera went on so anything that went on in the office they filmed and so they used to come and give him envelopes in the like and make sure they handed him the envelope so the camera would catch them wow handed him the envelope yeah so they had a lot of evidence on them yeah yeah they had but you know what he got two hung juries the first hung well the second hung jury he got because we fixed the jury i paid one of the jurors 25 000 and he got a hung jury.

Some guy comes to me and says, listen, my neighbor's on your father's jury.

And I said, could we do anything?

And he goes, I'll ask him.

And then he came back and he said, the guy wants $25,000.

So I gave him $20,000.

And that's a lot back then, eh?

Yeah, yeah, that was a real lot.

That was 1985.

Yeah, that was a lot.

So he got two hung juries and then the third time he got convicted.

But yeah, they had a lot of, they had an informant.

And then they had all the tapes, the bugs, the films.

Did you find out who the informant was?

Yeah, yeah, you had to testify.

Yeah, you had to testify.

He even wrote a book later on called

something,

a mobster, life of a mobster, or something, something like that, with all surveillance pictures in it of my father, my uncle.

How shocked were you guys with that informant?

Well,

when we found out who it was, yeah, it was a surprise because he was like, he was a good guy.

You know, he knew everybody.

He was a tough guy.

He was an error.

But what happened was he got beaten by a wise guy and he lived.

And he made a deal with the government in the hospital.

hospital and nobody knew when he got out of the hospital he

apologized to the guy this guy tommy a and tommy a like sort of took him back and then what happened was tommy a had bing back then bingo was big in florida like 50 000 jackpots it was a big form of gambling so there was um a beef going on with uh with another with another crew of wise guys

and my father knew them and my father was asked to help tommy straighten out this beef.

So my father helped him.

He straightened it out.

And then Tommy tells my father, could you service my guys while I'm in New York?

So my father goes, of course.

And one of them was Joe Doggs.

And that's how my father got swept up in this RICO Act.

And then Joe Doggs said, listen, I got some guys that want to borrow some money.

They're from Chicago.

You know, let me introduce you to them.

And he brought this guy there.

He was an FBI agent undercover.

And then they brought another FBI agent.

And my father and and this guy, Sarah, were shylock of money to them.

Damn.

And then my father winded up getting 40 years.

Yeah, that RICO made it too easy for them to lock people up.

I got indicted myself for four RICOs.

Jeez.

Two state.

I've covered all the bases.

I got indicted for two state RICOs and two federal RICOs.

That is nuts.

I didn't know there were state RICOs too.

They call it an orca.

I wonder what their win percent on RICOs is.

It's got to be super.

The Fed's 90%.

Jeez.

So you know you're screwed pretty much

i mean i never went to trial with the feds i went to trial once with the state i got convicted but i never every time the the the two times i got a lot i got locked up by the feds i i took pleas both times

yeah because it's too first of all it's too expensive right to fight the expensive second of all the stress expensive my father went for everything the third trial it was funny because the first trial it was we went for hundreds of thousands.

The second trial, the same thing, but we fixed the jury.

The third trial,

we're in the restaurant.

My father's partner, Tony Lee, he was a maid member of the mob.

Myself and this lawyer called Mark Krasnow, he was my father's attorney.

This is the third trial.

And we're sitting in the restaurant and he was a character, Tony Lee, and he looks at the lawyer and he tells the lawyer, before we, now it's time to talk money, he tells the lawyer, got a razor blade on you?

So the lawyer looks at him and goes, what?

What do I need a razor blade for?

He said, because all we got left is blood.

Take our blood.

We have no more money.

All I got left is

blood.

So he took a lot less.

He said, all I got left is blood.

Take my blood.

I mean, they bleed you dry, right?

They have no conscience.

I mean, they got unlimited resources.

Mob lawyers have, they're criminals.

Mob lawyers are criminals.

Mob lawyers are criminals.

They actually tell you how to lie.

They tell you how to, they're criminals.

And they take you, they have no qualms about money.

You know, you got to pay them.

But

you have to pay them and that's it and they throw figures at you like

well a lot of lawyers not even just mob lawyers behind the scenes they're working out deals with the other side's lawyers without you even knowing about it but mob lawyers are and the mob lawyers are different than other lawyers like because

we're all mob guys are we're all guilty

you know like like when we get indicted we're guilty you know and they know it and they and they they like bruce cutler he was john gotta be lawyer he thought he was a wise guy like he kissed you on the cheek.

He hung out in the club.

He dressed like us.

He acted like us.

Yeah, he loved it.

He loved it.

He loved it.

He used to say, you know, I love the man.

I love the man.

I had lawyers tell me,

when we had

a case going on and we needed a postponement because we had to put some stuff together.

And we needed a postponement.

And the lawyer tells us, this guy, Ronnie Rubenstein, tells us in his office, well, listen, if one of you went into the hospital, we could get this case postponed.

So, like, he told us what to do.

So, the next day, this kid Louie that hung out with us, we faked the crash on Conduit Boulevard.

He crashed an old car into a pole and he went to the hospital and we got a postponement.

You know,

but we got that idea from the attorney.

He told us what to do.

Like, if one of you is going to hospital, we could get a postponement.

So, one of us went into the hospital.

Yeah, there's a lot of things you could do to delay, right?

I'm sure you guys wanted to delay as much as possible.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.

Well, we needed a delay because we were going to go on trial and we needed to put, we needed to get some witnesses.

We needed to do some stuff and we needed some time.

And they, and they, the, the DA wanted us to go to trial right away.

So we needed some space and we, that was the best way to get it.

So

he went into the hospital.

We got a postponement and

and we lost anyway.

We got found guilty anyway, but you tried at least tried anyway.

We went down fighting.

Did you get a reduced sentence or no?

No, no, I always got when I went away, I always got the most time because I was Fat Andy's son.

I got the most time.

I went to the worst jails.

Like I went away on a case with three guys, this guy Frankie and Sal.

So we went to get designated to the jails.

Now we all got convicted for the same crime.

They went to Camp Adirondacks, a camp.

And the jail I went to was nicknamed Gladiator.

School, I went to Comstock.

I went to a penitentiary that was nicknamed Gladiator.

The school for the the same crime, the same crime.

So I always got screwed.

Is that because they consider you high risk?

Yeah, and of course I was a wise guy.

You know, my father's reputation, you know, he was a violent criminal and he was hooked, you know, a high-ranking member of the mob.

And they just sent me to the works.

And I always got what they called

CMC papers, that central

monitoring case.

And so every movement I made had to get approved in Albany.

In other words, a regular inmate, the facility could approve you for things like furloughs or work, whatever, whatever

thing, programs they have available, the facility could movement, any kind of movement to another prison, the facility could do that.

With a CMC, it had to come from Albany.

And I was always CMC.

I always got CMC papers, always.

And even in the feds.

The feds, you have a number and the last three digits of your number.

So every state has like a code.

Like I think New York is 053 or 058 or something, but 016 is like organized crime.

Like when you have an 016 number, all your movements have to get approved by Washington.

Washington, D.C.?

Yeah.

Wow.

So

I had an 016 number because, you know, I was,

and so when my father passed, unfortunately, my father passed away when I was in federal prison.

So I had to get approved.

So I got approved.

First, the counselor approved me.

Then when the council approved me, it goes to the warden.

And if the warden approves a regular inmate, you could go out.

They'll make arrangements to take you to the funeral of an immediate family member.

But because I was 016, an organized crime, when the warden approved me, his approval had to go to Washington.

And when it got to Washington, they denied me.

Whoa.

And they wouldn't let me go to my father's funeral.

That's nice to have, man.

Your own father's funeral.

John Gotty Jr.

couldn't go to his father's funeral.

Both of us, they both refused to let us go to our father's funeral you know i don't even think when i think of it i don't think john because john knew i got denied i don't even think he requested to go to his father's funeral because he knew they would never let him go wow that's messed up man messed up it's not like you're going to do anything while you're at the funeral listen i told the warden you could have loaned me your car and i would came back tonight

and you know he says i know but unfortunately you know you're organized crime it has to go to washington and some bureaucrat in washington said no even when i was in the witness protection program so i'm in the witness protection program They put me in this town called Corderlane, Idaho.

Yeah.

Idaho.

Actually, that town blew up now.

Beautiful.

Wow.

Beautiful.

So now I'm living in Cordilleane, Idaho, and it's nice high-end neighborhood, beautiful, right?

I'm there about six months.

Now, my handler loved me because I didn't give him no problems.

I didn't, you know, he gave me so much money a month and I wasn't drinking or you, you know, I don't use.

I'm in recovery.

I wasn't gambling.

I wasn't doing anything.

I was just living a normal life out there.

So my handler, he loved me.

This guy, guy, he used to tell me, you're the best guy on my case, Load.

So one day he comes to see me and he's upset.

He goes, oh man, you know, I feel so bad.

What's the matter?

He goes, I got to move you.

I said, you got to move me?

Where are you going to move me?

He goes, I got to move you into Washington State.

It's the next state over to the Tri-Cities.

I said, the Tri-Cities, that's the hood.

He goes, he goes, yeah.

He goes, listen, we have a new supervisor.

And when he looked over everything, he wanted to know why we had you living in Court d'Alene, Idaho.

He didn't want me there, supervisor.

He was worried I was going to, you know, take advantage of the rich people that lived in.

So I said, so he'd rather me go live in the hood so I could kill some gangbanger that's going to bother the media, right?

And they moved me from Corderlane, Idaho to the Tri-Cities.

It was like going from Park Avenue to Alphabet City.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

And I, and then I signed myself out.

I stood there a couple of months and I signed myself out.

Yeah, Corderlane's beautiful.

The real estate is marketing.

Oh my God, it's gorgeous.

Wow.

When I got off the plane, I got off the plane in Spokane, Washington, and the marshal's waiting for me.

And he goes, I said, where am I going?

He says, well, you're not staying in Spokane.

I'm taking, because right, like Court d'Alene is like 30 minutes outside of Spokane, Washington.

He goes, I'm taking you to Idaho.

I said, Idaho.

I,

you know, thought potatoes, you know, Idaho.

I said, what, to a potato farm?

He goes, no, man, I'm taking you to Paradise.

He told me.

I said, Paradise.

All right.

And he took me there, man.

It was beautiful.

When I got there, so now I'm in Idaho.

Imagine me in Idaho.

And I have this beautiful apartment um and there's a mountain lake and uh there was a trail around it so i'm there a couple of days and i'm up on this mountain and i'm walking this trail and this mountain lake and i smell this sweet smell like i'm going what's that smell you know I go, oh my God, that must be fresh air.

Like I smell fresh air for the first time.

So I got off the mountain and I had like a, I had a phone that I wasn't supposed to have.

And I called my friend Stevie up in the Bronx and I said, I just smelled fresh air for the first time yeah because you were locked up for years yeah yeah and you know living in new york you ain't smelling no fresh air hell man you know what i mean yeah smelling that yeah you could actually smell the air like smelled different but you know what happened there's you know have you been there nah i haven't there's crazy palm uh pine trees like major major pine trees and I lost my voice.

I thought I was dying.

I thought I had throat cancer.

I lost my voice.

And they took me to a doctor and I had some kind of allergic reaction to the pine pollen, which I never really was around that kind of pollen.

You know, in New York, there's not many pine trees except on Christmas time, you know, and I got and I lost my voice from the nasal drip.

I had to go on all kinds of medication, but I loved it there.

And the girls, they were throwing themselves at me because of my accent.

Forget about it.

I love it, man.

Forget about it.

It was crazy.

You're living good out there.

I was living good.

I met an Apache girl, a hunt.

She was 100% Apache Indian.

Whoa.

She was beautiful.

I met her at an AA meeting.

So I used to go to this AA clubhouse every day at 5.30.

And they used to love to hear me talk.

So when I raised my hand to share, like every, they loved it.

So I'm outside this meeting.

And

I knew she was Indian.

You know, someone told me she's 100% because there was a lot of Apache Indians up there.

And she walks up to me outside.

We're outside after the meeting.

She walks up to me and she says, so when are you going to ask me out on a date?

Wow.

She goes, I see you checking me out at all the meetings.

And we started seeing each other until they moved me to Washington State.

So I mean, I liked it there.

Yeah, I liked it there.

Did you tell her you were leaving or not?

When they moved moved me to Washington State, I told her, because everybody thought I was working.

They didn't know I was on the witness protection program because they had it all hooked up.

They had it.

I actually had business cards to like a construction office.

Wow.

And if, and if you wanted to reach me at work, they would, the marshal would put you through to my cell phone.

Like you would call this because they had it all set up.

Yeah, yeah.

So that I had like a good cover.

And so I just told her they were moving me on to another job and I was going to be in Washington State.

And we tried to stay in touch, but we lost contact.

Damn, we lost contact.

So were you looking over your shoulder when you were in witness protection or were you?

No, I never really looked over my shoulder.

I just was caught and kind of like just careful, you know, like I never really looked over my shoulder.

I just didn't like go back to my neighborhood.

I didn't want to put it in their face.

But in the beginning, I was more careful than now.

Now, like everybody knows where I am, I'm at.

Everybody knows I revealed whom I really, like when I moved to Florida, nobody knew who I was until I started doing, I did a show on National Geographic and I revealed who I was.

So then

now nobody knows what to call me.

They tease me because they used to call me Joe.

Yeah.

Because my middle name's Joseph.

So I went by Joseph.

Now they ask me, what should we call you?

Anthony, Joseph, whatever you feel comfortable with, I tell them.

So some people still call me Joe.

Yeah.

But I never really looked over my shoulder.

I mean, I know they're good.

You know, when you do what I did, they kill you.

Right.

I mean,

there's a contract automatically out on you, but the mob is not what it was.

Like in 77, when I came to Vegas, yeah, they were killing people.

Yeah.

But in 2025, they ain't killing nobody anymore.

Them days are over.

How are they going to do it?

Just cameras all over.

People are cooperating.

It's just a different world.

Yeah, murder seems very hard now, right?

Yeah.

Well, the mob ain't murder.

From what I heard, I mean, I still talk to people out there, and they're saying to me that the rule is now no more murders.

Wow.

They're not even allowed to kill anybody anymore.

Because their numbers are so low already.

Yeah, and because there's too much surveillance, too many under, too many confidential informants, too much much time.

The last mob murder they had was this guy, Michael Melnis.

He was a friend of mine.

I knew him good.

They killed him in the Bronx.

Everybody that was involved in it is in prison.

Jeez, when was that?

Michael Melnis got killed probably maybe

in 2019.

Oh, so it's been five years.

Five.

Six years.

Yeah.

And everybody's in prison.

Stevie Crea, the two guys that shot him, because they got caught on the camera.

The guy that gave the order, Stevie Creer, the.

uh um even the guy that gave the order got caught all of them all of them someone sniffed yeah well then people people cooperated all of them everybody that was involved in that mob murder got went to prison wow and why'd they take him out

he was he was dangerous he was he was

he was disrespectful to them he was taking money off them he he was you know he was just very disrespectful very dangerous um

he was a killer his brother was doing life his brother was like a hitman yeah um they just were scared of him.

Like

he was,

he was doing business and not kicking up to them.

Like in the restaurants, he was hanging out in Rayos.

He was just doing things he shouldn't have done.

He was breaking a lot of rules.

And he had a lot of challenges.

He was making them look bad.

That's what it came down to.

He was making them look bad.

So it was either.

Put your tail between your legs and look bad or, you know, do what you got to do.

And they decided to do what they had to do.

And they were all in jail.

Wow.

Back in in your day, it was common, though, right?

Oh, my God.

Yeah.

Like, probably one a year at least.

A lot.

My brother's friend got killed.

I mean, I knew so many people that got killed back then.

My brother's friend Tommy got killed.

Yeah, no, it was, it was, you went.

But back in the 70s, the 60s, and 70s, if you broke the rules, you were dead.

I mean, my brother-in-law beat my mother up.

We killed him.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

And you didn't tell her for a while, your sister, right?

No, I told.

I talked about that yesterday.

When I decided to cooperate in 05

and they took me out of my house, I made them take me to my mother's house at first to tell them what happened and to say goodbye.

And I wanted to tell my sister, I wanted to give them some closure, make amends, you know.

So I went to my mother's house with the feds and my sister, she flipped out.

She totally went crazy.

screaming at me, how could you do this to me?

You ruined my life and screaming at me.

She left us.

She ran away.

And my mother she was just like sad she was just sitting there and she just says to me i because my father gave me permission to do it he was he okayed the whole thing right that's how the mob operates the father tells the son to commit a murder and then the son goes and commits the murder he had to get approval from someone well first my father had to okay it then my father okayed it then we reached out to genie garden

And then he went to his brother, John, who was divorced.

And then John had to okay it.

Because in the mob, when you want to kill somebody, you got to get permission because otherwise it brings heat around.

You just can't randomly kill everybody.

You have to, it's because in the mob, they call murder work.

So to do a piece of work, you got to get permission.

So we got how to get permission.

So first my father okayed it, then John okayed it, and then we put the plan in motion.

So after the murder in 88,

I got arrested for it.

I got arrested for it in 2005

for the murder.

And then about a month later, the feds took me out of my house.

And that's when I went to tell my sister what happened.

So she flipped out.

And my mother just was sitting at the kitchen table.

And she just looked at me and she goes, I can't believe he made you do things like that.

You know, my father made me do things like that.

But that was the mob.

Yeah.

You know, after that, my sister met another guy.

I was talking, after that, my sister met another guy a year later.

And my sister got arrested because they were doing using doing drugs.

And they got arrested with credit cards, banging out credit cards and in the stolen car.

And my father wanted me to kill him and i told him no and he got mad he got mad at me yeah i was he was in prison and i went to visit him and he says this guy chris you know what you got to do here i go i'm not doing i'm not killing this kid he's a kid from the neighbor you don't know nothing about the mob or he's a kid from the neighbor that they she was she was getting high with i'm not what are we gonna i told my father what are we gonna kill everybody she goes with till she meets a fucking astronaut i don't i don't understand what you want to do here i told him i said yeah we'll just kill everybody that she goes with because she's your baby girl yeah and he got mad at me he got up he went i don't i'll take care of myself don't i don't want you to do nothing for me i'll take care of it myself i said good you take care of it so i went back to ozone park and i sent for this kid i said listen man you better get the out of here because you're going you know what i mean and he left and i didn't see him anymore and i didn't even want to know what happened i didn't ask my father what happened wow i i didn't want to know i was hoping that they didn't kill the kid About a year later, I get a letter from this other kid, Chris, that's in prison upstate New York.

And he says to me, listen, there's a guy, Chris, that just rolled in here that's going around telling everybody he went out with your sister.

I said, oh, thank God he's alive.

It was him.

And he was in jail.

Oh, thank God they didn't kill the poor kid.

He was in, you know, he was in prison.

But the reason why I gave him a pass is because

he wasn't an associate.

He was like my brother-in-law, he knew the rules.

He was mobbed up.

He was a dangerous kid.

He was an armored car robber.

He was a murderer.

You know, he had Uzi Uzi stashed in my mother's garage.

I mean, he knew the rules.

He was told, don't go out with Fat Andy's daughter, and he did it anyway.

So it was a different story between him and Chris.

If Chris was more like him, then maybe Chris would have got killed.

But being that he was just a neighborhood kid, you know, I just couldn't do that.

I couldn't bring myself to do that.

So were you not allowed to date other maid guys'

daughters or whatever, basically?

It was, you were allowed, but I

didn't, you know, it wasn't a good thing to do.

I had opportunities to

not to have affairs with wise guys daughters and i i i i i i pissed you know like um you know like everybody i know that mat like carmine debol he married john gai's gaudy's daughter

it wasn't a good fit

yeah you know what i mean uh carmine the other kid his other daughter married this kid louie this this is a crazy story so he marries this kid louis albano marries angel gardy

he we knew him he was my father's partner's like third cousin now and we all cheated on our wives yeah you know we everybody every mob guy i know including my father had a wife and one or two girlfriends i mean that's just how it was what took your girlfriend out on a friday and your wife out on a saturday and that's what you did yeah so

the kid had an affair

and The girl got pregnant and John wanted to kill the kid.

Wow.

You know, because, you know, it's his daughter.

And Tony Lee saved him, but they chased him.

They took his job.

They took his father's firework business.

So, you know, it wasn't a good idea to go out with wise guys' daughters.

You know, it wasn't a good idea.

My son, when I was in prison, when I was in prison, my son, I call my son up one day and he tells me, oh, I started seeing this girl from Howard Beach.

I said, Really?

She goes, he goes, yeah.

And I think you and grandpa know her father.

So I go, oh, yeah, who's her father?

He said, Vicar Muso.

Vicar Musso was the boss of the Lucchese crime family.

Wow.

He lived in Hallow Beach.

I told my son, Vic, I said, don't ever go out with her again.

Don't go near her.

Don't see her.

Stay away from her.

And he did.

I said, because if that girl gets mad at you and says you did something wrong, grandpa can't save you.

So do not go near that girl.

And he stood away from it.

Smart move, man.

Yeah, you got to be careful with the ladies, man.

They ruined a lot of friendships.

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

You know?

So I watched Michael Franzis on Pierce Morgan the other day.

Yes.

And he was talking about the JFK assassination.

Yes.

He said the mob played a role in that.

What do you think about that?

Oh, did no doubt about it.

I had a lot of conversations with my father about that.

And he told me Kennedy and his brother double-crossed everybody that helped him.

The father was a gangster, Joe Kennedy.

He was in Bootlega.

was hooked up with the mob.

When Kennedy was running for president, he went to the Teamsters and got the Teamsters to back Kennedy, right?

Kennedy wins the presidency.

What does he do?

He makes his brother the attorney general.

And who's the first person they go after?

Hoffa.

Right?

They put Hoffer in jail.

Right.

Definitely.

The mob had something to do with it, without a doubt.

There's no doubt.

I think it came out of New Orleans.

And look at, and Jack Ruby.

He kills Oswald, and then he dies a year later with stomach cancer.

Right.

Seemed fishy, right?

Of course.

Who do you think took Ruby out?

You think it was the mob, too?

No, I think Jack Ruby got a lot of money.

I think Jack Ruby got a suitcase full of money.

Yeah, without a doubt.

They sent Ruby in there because, I mean, he had cancer when he did it.

I mean, he knew he was going to get caught.

I mean, he did it right on national TV.

I was a little kid.

I saw it on national.

I was watching it with my grandmother and the TV went blank.

Yeah.

Yes.

Oh, definitely.

The mob has something to do with it.

You think it was one shooter or multiple?

Who knows?

My opinion.

I think there was more than one.

And I don't know.

I think the truth might some of the truth might come out now that because Trump is releasing all this information.

So maybe

some documents would tell the truth.

But that was always the discussion among us that the mob was in on it.

I mean, they tried to kill Castro.

We know the CIA did business with the mob going back to World War II and they let Lucky Luciano out.

That's all true.

The guy was in prison during time for Indanamora, and they made a deal with him to help with the docks, and they deported him.

Wow.

So, you know, the mob was always

in it.

They tried to kill Castro.

They went to them to kill Castro.

So So why wouldn't they go to them with Kennedy?

Yeah.

Did the CIA ever ever approach your dad or you or anyone you know?

No, but they did.

There was a,

in the 70s, there was this guy robbing banks, and he shot an FBI agent.

And they always thought he was with my father, this guy, but he wasn't.

He was with this guy, Charlie Wagons, this other made guy.

He was on record with this guy, Charlie Wagons, and he robbed a bank in Boston.

And when he came out, he shot an FBI agent.

The agent didn't die, but he shot an agent, and they wanted this guy bad.

And they thought he was with my own man.

They literally, they used to follow my father every day.

They would sit in front of the house.

My father would knock on the door and go, I'm going here.

I'm going there.

And they would follow him over.

And one day they told my father in the street, they go, listen, we don't care if we find this guy in a garbage pail.

We just want to find him.

So they like told my own man, like, you could kill this guy and put him in a garbage pail.

And it's okay.

We just want to find him.

Of course, he shot one of them.

They eventually locked him up.

But that's so, I mean, you know, that's what they did.

Wow.

So there was some respect there.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

It was funny because my father had,

he used to take them to bars and he would never go eat dinner.

And he would just stay in a bar all day.

And they would like, say, Andy, could you please go eat dinner?

They wanted to go eat dinner.

They were starving.

These agents, and he tortured them.

They followed him for like about a month.

Damn.

Just looking for that body?

Yeah, looking for this guy that shot the agent.

And then they told him one day, like, listen, we don't care if we find him in a garbage pail.

We just want to find him.

Yeah.

What happened to that guy?

They arrested him.

He went to prison.

Oh, they didn't kill him?

No, no, they arrested him.

Yeah, they arrested him.

I think they arrested him in Connecticut somewhere, but he got arrested.

He went to jail.

Wow.

How often were you getting followed?

All the time.

God, all the time.

I mean, and probably more so in the night.

I mean, in the 70s, not so much, you know, but in the night, after I, well, I got clean in 88.

After John Guidy became the boss, we were under surveillance all the time.

Damn.

Because, you know, especially us, because we came from Ozone Park, so we had like an intimate relationship with him.

Yeah.

So, more, us more so than anybody.

And the Ravenite was always under surveillance.

That was his club.

Right in Manhattan.

And then the club, the Bergen Fish Club, was always under surveillance.

And every time, like right before I would get arrested, so I got arrested in 91.

So they started following me a couple of months before that.

Then in 90, I got arrested in 95.

My phone was tapped for about a month in my house.

Damn.

And I was under surveillance for,

I went to Paris.

They notified Interpol.

Wow.

Interpol.

Because when I came back,

I came back from Paris and I got arrested when I got back.

I went to Paris in September and in October, I got arrested.

And the agents told me, yeah.

We were going to arrest you last month, but you went to Paris and

we had to wait for the reports to come back from Interpol.

I said, Interpol, I went to an NA convention.

They thought like I was over there doing mob shit in Paris.

Be careful with France, man.

That's where they got the Telegram CEO.

They arrested him there.

They have the French mob, yeah.

Oh, there's a mob in France?

Yeah.

And not only is there a mob in French, they actually have a ceremony like the Italians.

Really?

In France, yeah.

I did not know there was a French mob.

Yes, there's a French mob.

Yeah, my own man told me that they actually have a ceremony when they make guys like the Italians.

Yeah.

Are they in the U.S.

too or just in France?

I don't know.

I never heard of any of them in the U.S.

I mean, a couple of them are out in, I met a couple of them that were in Montreal.

They were like in the 70s.

They were coming back and forth in Montreal, but I never heard of anybody like stationed or like have any kind of clubs or anything in the United States.

Yeah.

I wonder what businesses the French mob gets into.

Heroin.

Oh, yeah?

Yeah, heroin.

Damn.

All of them.

And it's Sicily.

It's all drugs, all heroin.

Did Italian ever get into heroin, the Italian mafia?

Of course.

They did.

That's why Paul Castellano got killed.

He wanted the tapes they were all selling heroin john gotti's crew was all selling heroin and they got there was tapes of them selling heroin and he wanted the tapes because it was against the rules damn so that was that was the start of the downfall yes the heroin yeah you know it's funny because in the 70s guys used to bring my so my old man had a partner named tony lee they were partners and they used to do favors for guys and a guy

And they guys used to offer them heroin.

Listen,

take a kilo of heroin.

You can make a lot of money.

And my old man always used used to tell them no.

And I used to tell my father, what do you take it?

Take it.

You know how much money is involved in this?

And he used to tell me no, because number one is I'm the guy they'll make an example out of.

And number two is it's blood money.

I said, blood money, you just kill people.

I heard out blood money.

He never sold drugs.

Guys around him did, but he never sold drugs.

My brother had a big, major, it's funny because My brother had a big marijuana business in the 70s and into the 80s, and he made a lot of money selling marijuana.

And guys that worked for him actually went to prison for it.

Now I'm driving driving around Vegas.

There's pot stores all over the place.

Even in New York now, they just opened up a store in my neighborhood, a weed store, right, right dead in the middle of my neighborhood.

And I told my brother's son that your father was way ahead of his time.

Yeah, he was, man.

Was he getting it from cartels?

He was getting it from, yeah, Mexico.

He was getting it.

Yeah, was coming in from Mexico.

He was a connoisseur.

My brother, he was getting it from everybody.

He was, he sold.

We had a park across the street from my house called 88 Street Park, and he was selling nickel bags in the 70s.

He was selling 200 nickel bars a day.

He was making crazy money.

Damn.

And he used to pay, if you sold nickel bags for him, you got a dollar a bag.

So he had kids making $200 a day selling nickel bags of weed.

Smart man.

Have him do the marketing for him.

Did he get caught?

He never got caught, but guys around him got caught.

He never got arrested.

Wow.

He played it real smart.

Yeah, guys around him.

A couple of them went to jail.

Larry went to jail.

This guy Larry went to jail.

A couple of them went to jail.

I heard that his friends got killed.

Oh, yeah.

His partner got murdered.

I heard that's a tough business these days because it's legal now everywhere.

Yeah, there's a store in every corner.

Yeah.

In New York, well, in New York, there's a lot of stores that don't have licenses.

They're closing them.

They closed them down every day.

And then they just reopen up the block.

Yeah.

I grew up in Jersey.

How powerful did the New Jersey mob get at its peak?

Very, well, very powerful, especially when Atlantic City came into play.

You had the Philadelphia mob and the Jersey mob fighting over the contracts in Atlantic City.

So the Philly mob wanted to get involved.

Was that with Marlino?

Before Marlino and with Marlino, more so before Nikki Scaffa.

He was the main guy.

That's when Atlantic City was being built up.

So that's when Trump was trying to do stuff out there.

Well, Trump had, you know, the mob never got to Trump.

You know, Sammy DeBull talks about that all the time.

Right.

Because I, and I even personally asked Sammy the Bull that when I was in Arizona, I says, because he...

he had all the you they had a club and they had they had a big a bid rigging club and they called it the club the five families of the mob and they rigged all the bidding for construction jobs and sammy was one of the main guys in the club and i asked sammy i says to him

what what's up what did you did you ever do anything with trump he goes we nobody could ever get to trump he said he was always he was too smart and he was always he always had fbr ex

ex FBI agents working for him and anytime we pushed up try to push up on him he knew it was happening and it he stopped it dead in its tracks.

Wow.

He said they never got him.

Never.

Because they asked him.

And Trump, you know, Trump, when Trump was running for president, you know, he used that clip with

Sammy.

Oh, he did that?

Yeah.

Oh, I didn't know.

Yeah, yeah.

Because Sammy said it on Vlad.

Vlad asked him, did you ever, you know, did you ever get to Trump?

And he told Vlad the same thing he told me, that they tried and they couldn't do it.

They couldn't push up on him.

He was too smart, the FBI, and blah, blah, blah, blah.

And Tammy, Sammy told Vlad the same thing he told me and trump posted it on the social media and then sammy was getting calls from all over the world to come on new shows to talk about trump that's wild man did you guys ever have any politicians under control yeah oh my god not not on that level like uh councilman city councilman this guy tony sadowski he was like a city councilman he was with me well Back in the day, there was this guy named Mead Esposito.

He was a big democrat, because they have Democratic clubs in New York that were

very, very powerful.

And Mead Esposito was the, he ran the Democratic club in Brooklyn, which was very, very powerful.

He was mobbed up.

He was with Sonny Francis.

Michael knows him really good, and we know him really good.

He came from, he was out of East New York, the same neighborhood we're out of.

He was very powerful.

He was a politician,

a lot of cops.

The president of Queens County, because every borough has its own president.

He was involved.

The matter of fact, he even committed suicide because he got arrested.

He was able to get arrested.

They had a thing going with traffic tickets.

They were robbing millions of dollars, millions.

How were they doing that?

You know what?

I don't remember how they were doing it.

I just know they got this guy,

Mel Mel LeBeckin.

He was a lawyer.

He got arrested.

Saroyal got arrested.

He was with my father.

And the president of

Queens County, he committed suicide in Flushing Meadow Park.

Yeah.

Well, he probably knew he would get taken out, right?

If he went to well, he just didn't want to go to jail, yeah, because he, of course, he was, he knew he would be in trouble.

And yeah, he committed suicide.

Me LeBeck and got this barred.

It was a whole big thing.

Yeah.

So, yeah, politicians, cops,

correction officers.

We had all the correction officers on the take when I was in jail.

Anyone on a federal level, or it was all kind of local?

All local.

All local.

With us, anyway.

I'm sure there was on a federal, not with us.

Yeah.

The Queens DA, Sadowski, he was hooked up with this guy, Sar Real.

They had a meeting in this restaurant out the Donna's with John Gotti.

He was all over the newspapers when it leaked out that John had to sit down with the Queens DA.

Yeah.

You talked to any of Gotti's kids?

Not no more.

Not anymore.

Is there still a lot of bad blood there?

Yeah, we just don't get them working.

I know one of them went on a podcast, I think.

It might have been John Gotti Jr.

Yeah, he just went on

Patrick Ben David.

Yeah.

Patrick Ben David.

You know, some of it was true.

I just, I put out something on my podcast about it because some of it was bullshit and some of it was real.

But yeah, it was a good, good, good interview.

But he made some, he didn't tell all the truth.

Okay.

Well, you're always going to be biased towards family, right?

That's his own father he's talking about.

Yeah, but

he was told the truths about his father, but he plays the victim.

And we weren't victims.

I say it all the time.

We were bad guys.

He was the son of a wise guy.

I was the son of a wise guy.

But we made choices.

Like when I was 16 years old, I had a choice.

When I got kicked out of school, my father sat me down in the kitchen and he said to me, what do you want to do?

And I said, I want to go to work.

And he goes, all right, I'll get you in this, in the cement masons union.

I said, I don't want to go in those cement masons union.

He goes, what do you want to do?

I said, I want to work for you.

And he looked at me and he goes, well, if you want to work for me, going to jail is all part of the job.

And I was okay with that.

I was 16 and he put me to work in a blackjack game.

So I had a choice.

I wasn't a victim.

He was in military school one day, and the next day he became, he was a main member of the mob.

So he had a choice: stay in military school and have a career, or go work for your father.

And he chose to work for his father.

Now he's a victim.

I don't agree with it.

Yeah.

I mean, hopefully, you two can make up.

It was cool seeing Sammy and Michael Frenzies make up.

Oh, yeah.

You know, I just did something with the two of them.

I'm going to do something with Sammy on the 27th.

Hopefully, Michael's going to be involved in it.

I love it.

Yeah, because there's a lot of lessons if you guys can come together, right?

Share your stories.

You know what it is?

It's some guys, not Michael, or not Michaels.

Some guys think they're still in the street.

That's why there's a lot of bickering going on.

Now you got this Joey Molina in the mix, and he's calling everybody names, and it's just a bunch of bullshit going on.

I try to stay out of it, you know, as best I can.

Yeah.

I mean, a lot of guys still have egos.

I mean, mob guys are egomaniacs.

You know what I mean?

You have to be in that

lifestyle and self-centered and ego, egotistical.

So there's just a lot of bickering going on.

I try to stay out of it.

Yeah, I try to stay out of it.

I had Joey on, and then Michael came on the next week, and he was like, damn, if I knew you had Joey on.

I saw it.

I saw it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, he's shelved now, Molina, because what he's doing now, see, we cooperated.

So we're immediately out of the mob.

Now he's shelved.

So he has as much to do with the mob now as I do, which is nothing.

He has as much power as I do.

But he still plays the role.

He still talks, you know, he still talks the talk, but he's not walking the walk no more.

So what does Shelve mean?

Because he didn't rap, right?

No, Shelve means, so years ago, they would kill you.

If this was years ago, he would get killed.

Just like I would get killed, because he's a mob guy.

He was a boss.

He can't have a podcast.

You can't.

Joe Colombo had the Italian American League.

They shot him.

He got killed.

You cannot do what he's doing.

You cannot do what he's doing.

So if he would have done that when he was actively the boss, back in the day, he would have got killed.

So now what the mob does, instead of killing you, they call it they shelve you.

That means they take away your power.

Nobody could do nothing with you.

You have no say no more.

You're like shunned.

Got it.

You know, you got the scarlet letter on you.

You know what I mean?

Like you're shunned.

Yeah.

Did you have any run-ins or hear any stories about him in his younger days?

Oh, I knew Joey Molina.

Yeah.

I knew him good.

I used to go meet him.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

I knew him.

Him and my old man were in Allen went together.

They befriended each other.

My father loved him.

Oh, wow.

Yeah.

I used to go.

I met him in Philly.

trying to, so my phone was bugged.

I told you in 95, my phone was bugged for a month.

And he used to call me all the time.

Now he denies, I only met him for two minutes.

You know what I mean?

But he used to call my house all the time.

I'm working on now, me and Pasquell,

my managing partner.

He's trying to, we're getting the tapes.

We're waiting for them.

We just put in, did all the paperwork because I'm getting the tapes and I'm going to play the tapes on my paper.

Oh, wow.

Of him calling, hey, buddy, what's going on, pal?

You know, I'm coming to New York.

Let's get together.

Tell Nikki I need to see him.

And I was making appointments with him between him and the captains and the Gambino family.

So I'm going to, you know, and now, and, you know, back in the day, we have phone, we had phone books, you know, there's so way before your time.

My dad had that yellow.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And we have beepers.

So I, so I have, I found all my old phone books because I had to give them to the government.

So I'm looking through boxes and

I found them and they have the exhibit tags on them from the trials.

And I'm looking through the, through the phone book, and there it is.

there it is right there.

Joe Philly.

I had his home number.

So I showed it on my podcast.

I went, Joey, look, does this phone number look familiar?

And it was his number.

Phone number, yeah, from when he used to live, you know, back in the 90s.

It was where he lived with his wife and his two daughters, you know?

So I'm looking forward to putting those tapes out.

That's funny.

So he denies meeting you.

He denies, he said he, he met,

he denied, he said it like, I only met him for like a, you know, a minute.

Like like he denied, yeah, he he and and he denied the friendship.

His with my father, he he minimized the friendship.

He minimized the friendship because he was in Allen with my father.

He was, he was a captain then.

Yeah.

And my father introduced him to this guy Lenny, who was a captain in the Gambino family, because he didn't want to do business anymore with the Genovese family.

It was a whole big mob thing.

They were doing business with the Genovese family.

They didn't like it.

He wanted to do business with the Gambino family.

So my father hooked him up with this guy Lenny.

So when Joey got out of jail, I became like the go-between guy between him and Lenny.

And I was bringing messages to him in Philly.

And he would call me to make appointments with him to see Lenny.

Got it.

And now it's like that never happened, according to him.

Interesting.

Until I get the tapes.

So you guys were doing some business with the Philly guys back then?

Yeah, they were with Nikki and Lenny were doing business with them.

Yeah.

Yeah.

They were doing business with them.

Yeah.

They were doing like, they had like gambling machines and they were doing something with private, with the private sanitation.

Yeah.

Yeah, they were starting to roll with them.

They still do business with them.

What led to the downfall of the Philly mob?

Because I've seen a documentary, they started murdering everyone, right?

Well, there was a lot of wars.

I mean, Joey's crew took over the city.

I mean, Nikki Scoffer was a serial killer.

He was killing everybody.

He killed his best friend's son.

Wow.

What happened?

He felt threatened by him.

The kid had a lot of, you know, everybody loved the kid.

You know, he felt he was, he, he caught, he was delusional.

And he caught, you know, he figured he

figured he could make a move on him.

It was just a terrible thing.

And the guy was Joey Molina's friend, too.

They killed him.

It was Salvie.

The guy's name was Salvi.

Just a lot of insanity.

I mean, you know, then they all went to jail and Joey took over.

And then Joey got arrested 100 times.

Damn.

There's no future in it anymore.

Yeah.

Especially when they know you committed an act of, see, me, they knew I committed an act of violence in 88.

I went to jail for everything.

I went to jail for everything I went to jail for after

88

is legal today.

I went to jail for bookmaking.

I have an app on my phone.

I went to jail for policy, which is numbers.

Every store has a lotta machine.

Everything I went to jail for today is legal outside of the murder when I got indicted for the murder.

And now the government makes money off it too.

That's why it's legal.

Crazy, right?

That's why it's legal.

How's your sports betting stuff going?

Oh, I don't.

I can't win.

Oh, you can't?

I can't.

It's a tough space, man.

I won today.

I won today on the roulette wheel.

I love the honesty, though, because a lot of people still be selling their picks and stuff, and they're losing.

Well, that's what Joe Molina is doing.

Yeah.

No,

I'm very unlucky.

I mean,

things happen when I bet, like, shit happens.

Like, my son laughs.

He goes, only you just happens to.

No,

I'm.

I'm not.

No, I'm bad.

There's people saying the NFL is rigged right now with the Chiefs.

They're saying they're just winning every game.

Come on.

It's so blatant.

It's terrible.

I mean, I want them to lose so bad.

And I'm tired of looking at her.

Every catch that Kelsey makes,

they put her on.

I mean, who cares already?

Yeah, come on.

You see, first the flags were against Texas.

The flags were going up in the air every time Texas was moving the ball.

Then they brought in a special ref that.

Mahomes had a losing record against.

So what did they do?

Instead of throwing flags, they made bad calls.

First downs, they didn't give them incomplete passes that were incomplete.

They called them complete.

Pretty wild.

It's so blatant these days, man.

It's crazy.

Well, dude, it's been awesome.

Uh, working people will check you out.

And uh, you have a Patreon, too, right?

Yes, I have a Patreon.

I just revamped it.

It's membership started at a dollar, reformgangsters.com.

They come on for a dollar, they check out my what I have.

If they like it, they become a member.

They could talk to me.

I go live, I speak on it.

It's reformedgangsters.com.

I got a lot of content coming up.

I'm doing a special the 27th of February with Sammy the Bull.

Nice.

Hopefully, Michael Fancis.

Sammy, definitely.

I'm doing the Mob Museum tonight.

Sold out, right?

Sold out.

Yeah, I found out yesterday because I did a podcast with him yesterday and I asked the girl, how's the tickets going?

And she goes, oh, we sold out.

I said, oh, that's nice.

Love it.

Yeah, so everything's going good.

But yeah, the reformgangsters.com.

I love it.

We'll link it below.

Thanks for coming on again, man.

Oh, my pleasure.

Absolutely.

Check them out, guys.