How I Built 3 Gas Stations Before 30: The Inside Truth | Kristofer Danielson DSH #1083

I just acquired my third gas station.

Nice.

And you were doing 30 million a year in revenue.

Yeah, that was last year.

So you're going to do even more this year?

Yeah,

it'll be probably closer to 40 or 40 years.

Holy crap.

You're only

26 years old.

Yeah.

That's insane, man.

40 million a year at 26.

Well done.

Yeah, thank you.

All right, guys, Digital Social Hour here with Christopher.

We're going to talk the gas station industry.

Thanks for coming on, man.

Welcome.

Absolutely.

So, how did you stumble across getting into gas stations?

So, I started in 2020, my first gas station.

It was actually a convenience store to start.

So, I was basically in Ottawa, in Canada, which is the capital at the time.

I was in business school for business administration at Algonquin College.

And, you know, I was in my last year.

I was thinking about like what to do next, what my big move is.

And I was working for the federal government of

Canada at the time.

And, you know, I was, I moved up pretty quickly in my two years there.

And

it was good.

I enjoyed it.

It was just, you know, one day I was just kind of

taking my lunch and I was looking out outside from the skyscraper and I was like,

you know, maybe this isn't something that I want to do for the rest of my life.

Cause like I sort of seen the progressions in the government.

Like, you know, you become basically a senior team lead, then a manager, director, and then you can become an executive as well in the government.

And I sort of seen that pathway and I wanted to at least try and do something else while I was young because I was 19 at the time.

You know, you hear big entrepreneurs all the time say, do it while you're young.

So I was like, yeah, why not?

And

so I first came of the idea, actually.

So I'm from Thunder Bay, Ontario.

That's where I was born and raised.

And I am a First Nation as well.

And I'm a part of a reserve, Fort William First Nation in Canada.

I know in the U.S., you guys call it like an Indian reservation.

It's the same thing.

We just call it reserves in Canada.

But yeah, so there's a lot of gas stations on Fort William.

I've seen

and there was a prime real estate piece of property.

And when I inquired sort of who who owned it, it was actually my great uncle

who had a gas station there in the 90s before.

And,

you know,

it didn't really work out for him just

due to personal reasons.

But

I acquired that piece of land off of him.

And it was basically all my money at the time.

I believe it was like 25,000.

I saved up in the government and just working various jobs, you know, did

other things as well.

But then I seen like there's massive gas stations on my reserve because there's no sales tax.

Like we don't have to pay the sales tax on the fuel.

So that's why it's significantly lower fuel cost on the reserve as opposed to in town.

So there's 13%

tax in Canada, in Ontario.

It varies from province to province, but 13% in Ontario.

So

on average, you know, we can be lower like 30 to 50 cents a liter sometimes than in town.

So if you extend that offer to an entire city, especially for something like a commodity like gas, you know, everyone will take you up on that offer.

And the entire city of Thunder Bay comes out.

Basically,

we turned the entire city around in seven days.

So

it's quite large, the

market out there.

So I seen the market and I was like, you know, I could probably do this too.

It doesn't seem.

It doesn't seem impossible to start a gas station.

So I sort of just went out on my own.

This was before the time of Chat GBT.

So like, you know, you really had to dig deep on Google how to start a gas station.

And

like, there's really not, there's even today, there's not a whole lot on gas stations on the internet, like how you can even start them, how you go about doing it.

So I had to learn just brick by brick.

I started just contacting big fuel suppliers that

that I could find in the area and started talking with them about it.

Basically, I was 19 at the the time and I was just kind of learning.

But, you know, in my mind, from my perspective, it just didn't seem all that impossible to sell gas and smoke.

So, and that's pretty much what gas stations do.

They do

make most of the profit inside the store.

I heard that.

So that's true?

It is true, yes.

Okay.

And specifically on the cigarettes.

Really?

That's the highest margin item?

Yes.

Cigarettes.

Chew, Zin,

vapes, all that's the highest margin stuff.

And then the confectionery stuff is still.

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still pretty good to sell um but cigarettes is the main main profit interesting yeah because the gas prices are regulated right so you can't charge whatever you want for the gas um they i don't think they are oh they're not um no oh maybe that's a canadian thing or something yeah because in the u.s i thought they were yeah i've looked into it in the u.s you can't price your fuel below cost here i think got it so in canada that's not a thing no that's not really a thing oh okay but you still got to be competitive because if you're way too expensive, and everyone's pretty much buying,

it's called at the wholesale rack price.

So like everyone's buying at the same price.

So all it takes is one person to lower the price.

And then everyone's in a gas war.

And that happens quite frequently.

So that's why you got to have a good, a good store and not rely on gas.

So if you had a gas station without a store, would it survive?

It is possible.

Those are usually called truck stops.

They usually you only see them on the highways.

But

it really, I've only really ever seen it with truck stops.

Yeah, because they're in the middle of nowhere.

So finding someone to work there is going to be pretty difficult.

That makes sense.

But no, well done, man.

And you've scaled this to three locations now, right?

Yep.

Recently, I just acquired my third gas station

on the reserve.

And you were doing 30 million a year

in revenue.

Yeah, that was last year.

So you're going to do even more this year?

Yeah,

it'll be probably closer to 40 or

more than 40.

26 years old.

Yeah.

That's insane, man.

40 million a year at 26.

Well done.

Yeah, thank you.

Saw you just went on Ty Lopez's show as well.

Yeah, yeah.

Ty Lopez

wanted to know part of

like a private client program with him.

And, you know, I was talking on the phone with him and he was like, hey, why don't you come on my podcast and explain all this?

And

yeah,

he's been a pretty good mentor of mine.

He's pretty smart.

Sometimes helps me negotiate deals.

Nice.

Like, he's very, he's a good negotiator, Ty Lopez.

He is.

Yeah, shout out to Ty.

He's been on the show, and it's cool to see him have this impact in Canada, too.

Because I know he was big in the U.S., obviously.

So you were watching his courses growing up?

Yeah, I think I had seen his garage video.

Classic.

You could have not seen that.

I mean, that was every friggin YouTube ad.

if you're on YouTube in like 2015 bro I used to get so pissed because by like the 20th time you're like oh my god yeah you know

20th time you see that ad you're like stop it please like get me some ad block that was before ad block even existed I think so you couldn't even skip it

so what's the goal with this you trying to scale locations yeah pretty much right now just trying to acquire more gas stations or even start more gas stations

yeah that's basically the goal

just acquire maybe one a year.

Right now, that's what I'm averaging.

Nice.

I like going after really good sites.

I don't like going after

really sites that are too, too small.

So

I like acquiring gas stations on reserves in Canada as well, just because

there is an income tax advantage as well, and a sales tax advantage.

Because you don't get taxed on that, right?

Well, yes and no.

There are some taxes.

So we still have to pay 10 cents a liter to the federal government and 14.7 cents a liter to

the province of Ontario.

Got it.

And then there's also a carbon tax as well.

I believe that's like, it goes up substantially every year.

It's like 17%.

Holy crap.

17 cents, I mean.

Yeah, yeah, I mean, that's crazy.

So you're paying almost 60 cents just in tax.

It's about 30.

33 cents.

You're paying just pretty much straight to the government.

Okay.

And that's still on the reserve as well.

But the income tax advantage is like the main main advantage.

So if your business is situated on a reserve under the Indian Act, I believe it's Section 8087,

used to be 86, I think.

Yeah,

if you produce income on reserve, it's basically tax-free.

Nice.

Yeah, they have that in the U.S.

too.

Yeah.

That gives you a huge advantage, I feel like, you know?

Yeah, it does.

Yeah, there's some advantages and disadvantages, especially,

you know, with especially financing things.

So like the way the Indian Act is constructed,

basically that's why you see all of reserves pretty much on American and Canadian soil.

They're all like, you know, super ghetto.

They're like, you know, there's like shacks everywhere.

Because they can't finance?

There's you can't finance, no.

Oh, so you can't use a bank?

No.

And it's written that way because it's like, you can't use a a bank, basically.

So what I had to do in short is basically find private lenders that just trusted me pretty much.

Wow.

That is difficult because I could just go to a bank, get a $50,000 credit card right now at 0% interest for the first year.

And that's what I seen.

I seen the opportunity, and I knew that there were challenges to actually

start a gas station, especially they're super capital expenditure heavy.

So it could cost like millions of dollars for one gas station

to build, you know, just one, and I have three.

Um, so I had to go out and find financing.

Basically, I can see why people don't get into it because it's a high-risk high-reward, right?

Yeah, yeah, or high-risk, and the margins are thin, so I don't even know if that's high reward.

Yeah,

you know, you say 40 million, but you know, we're making like a low single percentage profit margins on that.

So, it's a volume game, then it definitely is, yeah, volume.

Yeah, because if you have 10 of those, you know, 400 million, make like 10 million a year, 20 million, whatever.

Yeah, yeah.

That's pretty good.

Yeah.

Now the biggest brands, like, they must have hundreds of locations because I see them everywhere in the U.S.

Is that like that in Canada?

Yeah, there's lots of Circle K's in Canada.

Big cities, you'll see Ultramars.

Other than that, you know, big gas stations are like SO in Canada.

Like, I know here in the US, it's BP, it's Chevron.

See Chevron every corner.

Yeah, yeah.

It's sort of the same thing, though.

It's all just owned by one or two major gas companies.

So is your long-term goal to get acquired by one of them?

I don't think acquired because I've thought about that before and it's like, you know, I'm 26 and then what am I going to do after like

sitting sitting around on a beach, you know, sounds cool, but I don't think it actually

translates well into anyone's life doing that long term.

You would need another plan after.

You would go crazy if you just got all that money at 28 or whatever and then sat around for 40 years.

Yeah, and I like doing what I'm doing as well.

It's like every day is fun.

That's cool.

Every day when I wake up, you know, I have my coffee 15 minutes.

And then once I look at my phone, it's like pretty much blown up every day.

There's always a new situation.

Running a gas station.

Who would have thought there'd be a situation there?

There's always an employee issue.

There's always like.

Do you have to pump your own in Canada?

Pump your own gas?

Well, you don't have to.

I have both self-serve and full-serve.

Got it.

On my reserve, most all of them actually are full-serve.

And then the ones in town are self-serve.

Okay.

Yes.

Where I grew up in the U.S.

is the only state left that does full service.

New Jersey?

New Jersey.

Yeah, I've looked into that.

It's sort of weird how it has to be like that, but I'm not even sure why, maybe environmentally.

No idea why they do it, but I wasn't complaining.

Those winters were cold, man, so not having to get out of the car car was clutch.

I'd be sure to tip them, but you're not even like supposed to or whatever.

But

I want to be nice.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I definitely put in a lot of time pumping gas myself.

Oh, yeah.

Damn.

Were you pumping it at first when you first bought the place?

Oh, yeah.

So we started, and it was actually an out-of-construction trailer.

Like, it was literally like just a shack.

And we had pumps, and we went on Craigslist,

which is basically Kijiji.

We call it in Canada.

Yeah.

And I bought two used gas pumps

for $1,000.

And we didn't even know if they would work or not.

Because we were working with limited resources at the start.

And so we went, we went, like, drove all the way to, I believe it was Niagara Falls, which is about a 16-hour drive from Thunder Bay with a U-Haul.

And my business partners, yeah, went down there and picked them up and

came back and turned out they did work.

And that was sort of the start of our gas station.

Wow, humble beginnings, man.

Yeah, we just kind of just

you've come a long way from your government desk job.

Yeah, yeah.

That is crazy.

Yeah, I think you're living a more fun and fulfilling life with that route you've chosen.

Yeah, definitely.

I've always wanted to be, you know, doing something in the entrepreneurial space.

I've always been interested in that even since I was a kid.

I sort of,

you know,

heard even you like sold Pokemon cards.

I did, yeah.

And like candy and whatnot.

That's pretty much what I did.

Oh, yeah.

I think I was in grade five selling candy.

Let's go.

So like I've been doing this a long time.

Yeah, I think it's definitely genetic and like environment.

Yeah, I think

exactly.

Environment and a bit of genetics as well.

Yeah.

Were your parents entrepreneurial?

Yeah, my dad has had a few businesses as well.

Pretty entrepreneurial.

Same.

Yeah, he definitely inspired me.

He sold books on Amazon.

Oh, nice.

Yeah.

He had a nine-to-five job, but he definitely had an entrepreneur side to him.

Yeah.

So I saw how excited he was going to to book sales and things like that.

And then even when I was a teenager,

I was doing like online affiliate sales.

You know, I was making a couple of grand a month doing that.

It was pretty, I was pretty blown away when I first was like 16, 15 years old, making like even a couple of grand off the internet.

That's a lot at that age.

Yeah.

It didn't seem

like it didn't seem very

real when it first started, but you know, I got good at that and then it sort of like ended the algorithm, I guess, and I had to find something new.

So I just went to college and then had my gas station idea, basically.

Yeah.

Did you graduate college?

So I went to Algonquin College for business administration three years.

I was in the finance program.

And actually in my last semester, I had this opportunity to start my gas station.

So I was like, you know, maybe let's just put this on pause.

I only have one semester left.

And, you know, I'll give it maybe a year, see what I can do, and I'll give it my all for one year.

And so I did that, and it ended up working out.

So I had to leave college to start my gas station.

But, you know, I think it paid off pretty well.

These days, I don't think you need it in business.

Yeah.

College degree.

Yeah.

It's not.

It's not needed, although I would say you do need to have an understanding of accounting if you're going to start a business.

Your accountant can show you a financial statement.

And if you don't know the like if you don't know what net income or or gross profit is you're gonna have like a really difficult time um scaling and growing agreed yeah you need to know the basics plus you're probably doing the accounting at first because you can't even afford an accountants yeah i was doing mine at first too so you got to know the basics for sure yeah and taxes you got to know taxes yeah they don't teach that in school yeah oh man my first year that one hurt yeah i've heard that from a lot of first-time uh small business owners like they don't know the how to structure the tax absolutely were you prepared that first year

um i think i was yeah like i was pretty pretty organized the first year but i would say the most challenging was actually doing the work itself because like we couldn't really afford too many employees at the time yeah and uh me and my business partners yeah basically just had to work 16 hours a day uh every day for about a year and a half straight.

Damn.

Almost two years.

And that's physical work.

That's you on site, not even just like like sitting at a desktop work.

Yeah, and that's like negative 40 below

in the wintertime.

Holy gas outside.

That is nuts when you put it that way.

It gets that cold up there.

Negative 40?

Yeah, actually, our first winter was like, our first winter in business was like the coldest winter in a long time.

Oh, my gosh.

Talk about timing.

Yeah.

Does gas even freeze?

How does that work?

No, gas doesn't.

I mean,

it technically could, but the fuel in Canada is like made so it doesn't freeze like that

if you have super high ethanol like in south america i believe it's like 50 ethanol inside of the fuel it could freeze technically i guess but the fuel that they sell in canada like it it doesn't freeze interesting what's your top seller gas is it the regular premium diesel is it like yeah it's definitely regular regular regular is about 80 of fuel sales wow premium is about 10

and mid-grade diesel and marked diesel is about the rest of the last 10%.

Diesel is like 2%.

Marked diesel is like 2% as well.

That's crazy.

Regular is 80%.

So 80-20 rule.

Yep.

Interesting.

It makes sense, though, because most cars run on regular.

Yeah, most do, yeah.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Do you think prices are going to keep going up

for gas?

You know, I'm not really sure about the macro economics of gas, you know, because, and also it doesn't really matter for me because my margin stays the same.

So whether gas is like five dollars a liter or it's a dollar a liter, like I'm still making you make the same amount?

Yeah, wow.

Basically, like five cents a liter.

Oh, that's all you're making?

Yeah.

Holy crap.

Because it's so competitive, like

any one gas station could just collapse the margins to zero.

Yeah, five cents is nothing.

Yeah.

I mean, on one customer, you're making 20, what, like two bucks?

Yeah.

There's a lot of trucks in Canada.

oh okay so trucks yeah but yeah there's like you know on a small car yeah like that's nuts people don't think about that when they're buying gas because you see a lot of pissed off people on social media talking about gas prices yeah but you're only making two to three bucks off them yeah and that's why in the gas station world you need volume um you could have a highway location i've seen where they charge like 40 50 cents a liter um but you know that's like pretty rare to find yeah because you would need basically a monopoly in that whole area to charge that

40 cents a liter holy usually you only see that on highways in the middle of nowhere though dude i've never seen that i haven't seen gas under two dollars a liter and oh sorry but i went what i meant by that was like they make 40 cents a liter oh they make okay they just raise the price got it got it making 40 cents but they'd have to be in the middle of nowhere yeah most gas stations are only doing like five cents okay so the location matters a lot then it does yeah so you don't want to cheap out on that yeah you definitely need a good offer if you don't have a good location That's another thing I look for.

Location first, it's got to be a decent location.

And then after that, we kind of analyze how much fuel we think we're going to go through.

And then once you have

basically an estimate on your fuel, then you can estimate your store sales, which are going to drive most of your profit for gas stations.

Got it.

That's sort of how I look at it.

So what percentage of your sales are from the store versus the gasoline?

You know, I've talked with a lot of gas station owners about this.

Some say it's like 25%.

Some say it's like 33% store sales, 25% store sales, and then the rest fuel sales.

But it really depends on the location and how you do your,

how you do an offer.

But yeah, I would say it's generally like 25, maybe 30%

are in-store sales.

And then the rest of your revenue comes from fuel.

Interesting.

And that's revenue, but you said a majority of the profit is from the store.

So yeah, it is true, yes.

That is an interesting business model, man.

Yeah, I never thought about it like this, but I don't think it's a business I'd want to get into because you're spending six, seven figures to make five, 10%.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's a pretty heavy capital expenditure business, but like if you have a competitive advantage basically like I do, it's definitely worth doing.

Right.

Because I've even heard Warren Buffett say like he doesn't like gas stations because of the reason that you said because it's like, it's very capital intensive and you make super low margins.

And I've also heard Buffett say, like, about gas stations, you know, they your competitor can just lower the price and then take all your customers.

Because the prices change every day, right?

They do, yeah.

Yeah, that's like the one industry I've seen where, like, every day it's a new price.

Yeah.

So you got to be on top of it.

Yeah.

So I have a nice moat and competitive advantage with my gas stations, basically.

They're always going to be lower.

So,

and it's a commodity.

Like, nobody cares that um you're paying less for gas like

um they would rather pay less because it's like it's the same gas that you would get in town it's just cheaper yeah yeah no one cares it's the same quality right so yeah and it's very close the reserve to thunder bay it's like just across the bridge nice so you're getting hundreds of cars a day uh a thousand yeah thousands yeah wow yeah okay i can see why you're doing 30 million a year now yeah the whole the whole reserve is basically i don't know like 15 000 i think i seen the city of thunder bay the uh traffic report.

It's like 14, 15,000 cars a day.

Damn.

So you're getting about like 7% of those to stop in for gas every day?

Yeah, uh, well, more more now that we have the three gas stations.

Oh, okay.

There's six gas stations l on the reserve, so I have three of them.

Wow, you own half of them?

Yep, yeah.

So is your goal to get the other half?

I think I'm going to take a break from

from that for now.

It's just to

I think I'm going to focus on other markets because, you know when you sometimes like you know it's like you already have um basically like 90

but you know is that last 10 really worth the really worth all the work and everything so i don't think so got it yeah i think i'm pretty happy uh

where i am in my current market so that's why i'm kind of looking at new markets now that's cool though you sound like you built yourself to a point where some of this stuff's like passive almost.

Yeah.

Like have you exited, like, have you separated yourself from the business now?

The day-to-day operations, yeah.

Like, I'm not really

pumping gas anymore, like, out of a necessity.

Yeah, I do like pumping gas from time to time.

It's relaxing, right?

Yeah, it is.

It actually is relaxing, yeah.

Sometimes I just like shut my phone off, go outside, pump some gas just for fun.

Yeah, sometimes, yeah.

That's funny, dude.

It is like when you're driving for hours and you stop for like a gas pump, it's like definitely refreshing, though.

Yeah, and I like to sharpen my skills out at the pump.

My business partner, Ziad, we always kind of joke about,

you know, you got to really become one with the pump.

You could do it from a distance?

No, like, I sort of mean that metaphorically.

Like, you got to, you know, become one with the pump.

That's funny, man.

How many partners you got in this thing?

Just one.

Okay.

50-50 partnership?

No, I have the majority of it.

Smart.

You know, I met Ziad, my business partner, in Ottawa when I was going to school.

And, you know, we were both entrepreneurial.

We both wanted to start a business.

He actually had a business at the time doing Intel comm deliveries.

Sounds fun.

Contracts with them.

And then, you know, I was sort of like, you know, how about let's just do

my gas station instead.

And, you know, he moved to Thunder Bay and we basically got going.

You said you were looking into the U.S.

markets earlier.

Yeah, I've looked into it.

It's very different, though.

It's kind of like the NFL and the CFL.

It's the same sport.

It's just like all different rules.

So I think I'm going to stick to Canada for now, but that's not out of the picture

if a good opportunity came up in the States.

So when you're buying these or when you're seeing them for sale, what kind of multiple are these selling for?

Yeah, like basically I like to purchase a business for like two or three times their earnings.

Their EBITDA?

Well, their net income usually.

Not really EBITDA because

just for you know other purposes like

I really just care about how much money actually am I gonna profit from this business, not sort of all the other high-end fancy accounting terms.

Basically at the end of the day, all you got to care about is how much money can I get out of this business?

Fair enough.

They try to overcomplicate that thing.

Yeah, they really do try.

I was never a fan of EBITDA.

Yeah, yeah.

Like even just explaining it to someone is a process.

Yep.

Yep.

Like, yeah, they should just be profit, right?

Yeah.

I like looking at the net income.

So, like, basically, if I buy one, I want to make it back like in a few years.

Okay.

Two or three years, ideally.

Maybe, maybe a bit longer if

it's like a larger gas station.

Yeah.

You got good patience, man, because a lot of people these days want their money back right away.

Yeah.

You know, yeah.

But you could wait a couple years.

Yeah, and that's still a pretty good return.

Like, you know, like if you buy a stock on the stock market, on average, I think most of them in the DAO are trading for like 15 times earnings so like if you bought the whole business you would have to wait like 15 years just to break even whereas if you buy a small business like a gas station you can make your money back in two to three years wow when you put it that way that's that's interesting perspective because people don't think that way with stocks yeah they think they're making money back quick yeah no it's you're saying 15 years yeah because they are overinflated right yeah by the time they're on the stock market yeah yeah that's a good good little technique what about crypto you get any of that

I think I got like a few hundred dollars in Bitcoin, but I don't really focus too much on crypto.

So you go all in in business?

Yeah.

I think I got on my Coinbase account like a few hundred dollars, but I haven't logged into it in years.

I think I watched it be like 100K when you

bought it when it was like 2,000.

Oh my God.

So dude, you're up.

It's at 70K now.

75K.

So I'm probably at like $700, $800

from $100.

You would be up 37X.

Yeah.

So you'd have $4,000.

Yeah, basically, yeah.

Yeah.

Imagine if you put in, wow, so you bought it early, man.

Yeah.

I made my mom buy $50 worth as well, pretty much at the same time.

Oh, she's got $2,000.

You should tell her about it.

It might hit $100K in the next few years, but Trump in office now.

It's going up a lot this week.

Yeah.

So we'll see what happens.

But, man, it's been fun.

Where can people find you?

And do you teach any of this stuff?

I do a little bit on Twitter, yeah.

I've

a little bit of a base that people are interested in gas stations.

There's also another guy I follow and interact with on Twitter as well, a gas biz guy.

Nice.

He's like a gas station owner as well, and he really goes into the nitty-gritty how to start gas stations and manage them and everything.

I'm mainly on Twitter, although you can find me on Instagram as well.

Cool.

We'll link both below.

Some people call it X these days, right?

So we'll link that.

Thanks for coming on, man.

That was fun.

Yeah, thanks for watching, guys.

Check out the links below.

See ya.

See ya.