From Last Pick to Elite: How I Became a Top Ultra Runner | Harvey Lewis DSH #950

What drew you to love running so much?

This is back when I was like 15,

14, actually 13.

Jumped into a marathon when I was in high school, and that moment just really changed my life because I've discovered that if you're persistent, you can do anything on this planet.

All right, guys, Harvey Lewis here today.

Been to 107 countries, right?

Yes, yes.

It's been an amazing adventure across life.

you ran hundreds of miles in all of them i assume right yeah well not all of them but uh i've i i've seen some places and and uh i was talking to your wife out in the lobby i mean we were like sharing some stories about bolivia and la salta de uyuni yeah your fiancé i'm sorry right yeah yeah getting married next year so that's exciting yeah pretty congratulations at this point yeah i just got married myself

my my my fiancé before my wife um we were together for 10 years so how long you guys been together?

Seven years.

Seven years.

So like very similar.

Very similar, yeah.

So what drew you to love running so much?

Man, I started off and I was like the

very

last person to ever be picked on teams when I was growing up.

I was like chunking goonies.

And somewhere it hit me that I just started like running for training for football.

And I ended up like going out for the football team and being like third string defensive tackle.

But I like the training and

all the fitness elements to it and pushing myself.

So this is back when I was like 15,

14, actually 13.

And I like jumped into a marathon when I was in high school.

And that moment just really changed my life because I've discovered that so much in this world is a matter of how much persistence you have.

And if you're persistent, you can do anything on this planet.

Nice.

so you like the results you saw from your training and your persistence yeah i mean i was still finishing towards the back of the pack oh really so at 15 you weren't yeah yeah i was i never won a race in high school whoa in fact i normally finish towards the back and when i ran the marathon it took me five years to break five hours damn

so you had terrible genetics yeah well i wouldn't say i had terrible genetics but i would say i didn't have uh i didn't like have the the formula okay and i've learned the formula across decades got Got it.

Because now people are running marathons in like two and a half hours, right?

Oh, faster than that.

Like, I mean, the world record is like two hours and two minutes.

Holy crap.

Yeah, I mean, it's like,

I mean, we've even had, yeah, it's pretty incredible.

I mean, they just keep on pushing it lower and lower.

Wow.

But yeah, I got into running pretty young, and I discovered ultras when I was actually

19 years of age.

And I've been doing ultras for now 20, 28 years.

So an ultra is two marathons right and an ultra is any race further than a marathon oh further than so uh it i mean in this country they've exploded so i mean when i first started ultras back in the 90s there were fewer than like five percent of the people doing them today so it's it's grown by like uh exponentially and now there's like you have 100 mile races you have 200 mile races you have backyard ultras that go have no finish line.

You keep going to the last person standing.

That's cool.

yeah it's uh I love the sport because it is

it it really brings you to it it removes all the layers that we have and it gets you to your inner core you you discover what your purpose is what what your why is

I I I feel like a closeness with like

when you're in that moment of like complete and utter like

challenge.

sometimes people will refer to it as like suffering or pain.

I don't really like to think of it that way, but it really causes you to like dig into your inner

side and like think about what is important in the world to you.

Wow.

Yeah, because you're on your own.

It's a very individual sport.

It is.

It is and it isn't.

Like there are times like where you have a crew.

and like your crew is like your your team.

Like they basically, like for example,

in Death Valley, i run a race that uh goggins popularized called badwater 135.

you basically run 135 miles from the badwater basin to the portal mount whitney wow and you have a crew that follows you every mile like in a vehicle or a mile or two and they hand off like ice or drinks and so i mean without that crew like you wouldn't be able to like that'd be tough right because that's six marathons yeah yeah so it it's like a lot of times there is a crew and like this episode is brought to you by BetterHelp.

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Other times you have even like teammates.

Like I've been on the USA team for the 24-hour race where you're running for 24 hours.

I've done that five times.

And I've been on the backyard in the backyard world championship team five times for the USA.

So for that, like the last one we did,

I ran like 316 miles.

I had teammates we were I was pacing our teammates they were we were each like supporting each other with like positive energy and like sometimes someone would like would like be just falling back and falling asleep like as they're running and I'm like have to grab them and say like we're going man so it's not always like an individual sport wow you have like races where you are teamed up with people too.

316 miles.

You ran that and how long?

That race is a race where you have to do 4.167 miles every hour.

So it adds up to 100 miles every day.

And so that was like three days and four hours.

Yeah, but my best was last year I ran and set the world record

of, or

on the biggest course.

for running four and a half days

450 miles.

And it was a really, I mean,

you know, the UFC fighting gets a lot of attention but honestly I'd say like ultras are are are even

even more badass and require more toughness than even surviving like in the UFC because with that with with that I mean you're running like non-stop practically you you if you finish your your loop within your 4.167 miles faster than an hour, you have whatever time that is to the to this.

so you might get like if you finish in like 50 minutes you get 10 minutes to like lay down to like eat whatever you can and then restart the loop at the top of the hour and like I mean you lose toenails you have blisters that you have to like sometimes pierce you're like you have to fight through sleep deprivation For that race, I didn't sleep for the first three days.

And then the fourth day, I was like, fourth night, I started sleeping like just like one minute, two minutes, because I was finishing my laps with 55 minutes.

I only had five minutes to reset and get going again.

Holy shit.

So it was really wild.

And there were 75 other people that were like world, or they were champions of their own countries who didn't want to give up either.

So it was like a wild experience, like last person standing.

I mean, people were going to like the point where they just were total fatigued and they couldn't walk back to their tent.

Like, it's really wild because you get into like this mental aspect of your mind and your body

and you're able to push beyond where you think you could.

Like, and so much limits us by what we think we can do versus what we actually can do.

You know, we are our greatest strength and our greatest challenge.

You know, if we believe we can't do something, that's the heart of it.

You're never going to be able to do it.

But with that particular race, I always focus only on the lap I'm on and I never think like oh I've got 200 more miles to go like I've just focused on like doing that very lap I'm on and that's it wow and eating a lot of food yeah you gotta eat a ton of food so you were just staying in the present just staying in the present because if you thought about the 200 miles you gotta run you probably would have gone crazy no you have to really break it down into like that that particular hour like you just have to focus on like the the next tree the next mile and focus on what are are you excited about when you get to finish with that lap.

And it's

simple, stupid stuff.

Like I'm excited I'm going to get like some Coca-Cola.

I'm excited.

I'm going to like get some of that.

Do you drink Coca-Cola?

Yeah.

I mean, I do like during the race.

Wow.

Yeah.

I mean, it's like, it's really

lots of calories, caffeine.

I usually don't drink it until like the second day because I don't want to like use any caffeine the first night.

Like I can make it to the first night without any caffeine.

And then like the second, third, fourth night beyond, like having some caffeine is helpful so i i like to mix up my drinks like i have like probably a dozen different drinks i like to have uh but it's one i have that's impressive man and you won that race at 48 i'm assuming a lot of the competition was younger than you right yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah i won the race at 48 and it and you know i think it uh you know it's really interesting like one of the statements you you said go for it you remember what you said in the lobby oh is running this much

bad for you?

Because you're running hundreds of miles.

Like, is that actually bad for the body?

Right.

Well,

no, I would say yes.

And, like, that you can accomplish, like, and actually, what you were saying in the lobby, you were saying, is running bad for you?

Like, period.

Like, you know, and I would say, like, a lot of people don't understand.

They assume that running is bad for you, but, like, there's running, it can be excellent for you, but it depends where you're at.

So, I mean, for me,

I don't have any pains at all, and that's kind of crazy.

Like, I'm 48, and I just ran like 316 miles a few weeks ago.

Yesterday, I ran up and down a mountain in Death Valley.

I ran twice yesterday.

I ran this morning like 10K in Vegas.

I don't have any aches on my body, none.

And so much of it has to do with like what I eat,

also

what I do with my recovery.

And like, those are huge elements.

So,

for

ultras, on the other hand, I'd say, yeah, if you're running like a thousand miles,

it might not be the greatest thing.

You could achieve the same goals by going out and running 5, 10K,

20K,

a half marathon.

Like, absolutely, even running one or two miles are amazing.

But I think number one is just like movement.

Like, people need movement in their body.

Like, finding something that you enjoy doing, that you're passionate about,

is critical, whether that's swimming, yoga, walking.

So, yeah, it's not like I expect, I'm trying to think everyone should be a runner, like not at all.

But running is also can be good for you if you take good care of your body in terms of what you're eating, in terms of like doing other things in addition to running.

Like,

you can do amazing stuff with running.

Yeah, well, there's a lot of evidence that your VO2 max levels coordinate with longevity these days.

Yeah, yeah.

It's

well, you know, I have a friend who's 102,

Mike Fremont, and we met running, and he's still,

he is 102, so he was running really up to 100.

The last couple years, his run is more of a walk, but we still say we're going out for a run.

And it's pretty impressive that he's able to do that.

You know, a lot of it for me, honestly, has been my nutrition.

So I eat all vegan foods.

Like, I've been doing that since I've been vegetarian since 1996.

Wow.

Yeah.

And I mean, I heard like one of your like recent guests.

Billy Carson.

Yeah, he said, like, a vegan diet almost killed me.

Yeah.

And I was like, that just drives me crazy.

Because honestly, in America today, really, our obsession with like animal protein

and also like sugary foods is really what's killing Americans.

And so from,

I feel like people ought to really do their own research and get more into it, looking at like actually quality sources of evidence.

And I don't expect every American to become a vegan, but the big deal is, is that if you can like move your nutrition more in that direction, so maybe like every morning for breakfast, like my friend Jesse Itzler, he only has like fruits and like simple like plant-based things at the beginning of the day, all the way up through midday.

Or incorporate a couple days a week where you're eating something vegan

or or like just looking at what you're eating in terms of what your nutrition is.

If you are eating meat, like are you eating, is that your main go-to in your plate?

It's kind of interesting because in America we've been so conditioned through like the media, or not the media, but like marketing,

to think that we need to have some meat with every meal.

And it's like...

There's a lot of inflammation with like dairy, for example.

The dairy industry has,

I'm a teacher, and like even in schools you you can't even serve a plant-based milk because of the influence of the dairy industry on the USDA yes so I mean there there's some really big shifts that I hope are going to be happening also in schools but you're seeing in the grocery store like half of the like possible things that people are drinking now are like oat milk

almond milk and it makes up almost half of like what is sold in the in the grocery store today.

And like when people start thinking about it, like and learning more about what really this milk is designed to make a small calf, you know, a gigantic animal.

And you can get the same benefits of like oat milk by drinking, like it has like the same proteins, calcium, vitamin D, those kinds of things, and you don't get the inflammation that you get in the dairy.

So, I mean, I started this in the 90s, and I'm seeing a major shift in the last 25 years in our country and around the world.

So it's nice to see that from my vantage point.

But then I also hear like your guests coming on and saying, like, I think that probably what happened, a lot of people, they may just eat only,

I've never heard anyone having any issue unless they're not eating enough calories or they're only eating like cheese pizza at every meal.

So, you know, if you're not diversifying yourself to a degree or like educating yourself with anything you could you could have like uh you know not do as well as you would do otherwise yeah i was reading the comments that one really blew up had like 8 000 comments right

but

yeah he travels a lot so it could have been just an issue of it's hard to eat healthy when you're traveling too yeah and see that's one of the things when uh i think really helps actually also when you're like dedicated to to eating a certain way and nutrition for me like traveling i traveled to 107 countries and what i do is I always bring a couple snacks with me on in my bags, and then it also causes me to like search out better foods.

So, for example, when I was in the Azores, I was on this small little island, and like the first place I went into, all they had was like burgers and fries.

And I like pulled up on my phone, I'm like, I'm not gonna eat this stuff, obviously, there's no nothing I can eat here.

So, it caused me to go to another place, it was like a kilometer away, and like they had amazing like vegetable soup and like some vegetable like paninis and like all sorts of great things that I wouldn't have gotten had I just been like lazy about or I hadn't been like focused or dedicated to nutrition right so it's like it causes you to you learn a lot I mean there's a lot of like

there's a lot of it's a it's far more easier today than it ever was before but when you dedicate yourself to it you you start to like you find where these things are yeah there's all there's apps, there's all kinds of ways that seed oil scouts, a good app.

Yeah, I love that app.

Have you seen that one?

No, so it tells you if the restaurant is using seed oils or not, really?

Yeah, yeah.

I've only heard a little bit, I saw a billboard up yesterday.

Oh, they had a billboard?

Yeah, some some there was a billboard about the seed oil.

Oh, oh, I saw that one, yeah, in Vegas, yeah, yeah, that Mexican restaurant.

Yeah, are you big on seed oils?

Like, do you have opinions?

No, I'm not.

The only thing I've

personally like saw some stuff online about seed oils

like the in relationship to the sun.

Oh, sunburn, right?

Sunburn.

I don't know if you have anything to add about that.

No, I've seen that.

Yeah, if you eat seed oils, there's a greater chance you get sunburned, basically.

Something like that.

I can relate to that.

I mean, I used to get sunburned a lot when I was eating really bad.

So maybe there's something to it, but who knows?

I don't know.

Yeah,

it's just one of those things.

Like, I feel like that there needs to be some research.

Like, people need to look at like legitimate sources yeah and like with seed oils like I don't think that like I definitely like think that there's some benefits or disadvantages in looking at that but but like

yeah I saw a lot of misinformation online about well people get skin cancer because of like seed oils or something like that And I just feel like that's something that is

important to like, you look at the science behind.

Yeah.

And like,

yeah, so I mean, I go to a dermatologist and like, you know, we, I personally, I'm in the sun, like in like, for example, Death Valley, all this sun exposure.

And I feel it's really important to, you know, also just be mindful, like, to cover up from the Sun.

Like, I mean, I still get out there.

I love the Sun, but I also don't be oblivious to like that the Sun does cause cancer to people.

I mean, if you're in Australia, you're going to get really messed up.

Oh, man.

I went there and my skin was peeling off my face.

Seriously, yeah.

Yeah, it's getting wrecked.

Yeah, I didn't even think about that, but you're in the sun all day.

You got guys like Brian Johnson staying inside all day because he's scared of the damage from the sun.

Have you seen any sun damage from your dermatologist?

Absolutely.

Like, yes.

Yeah, I actually got skin cancer.

Oh, you did?

Yeah, last year.

Damn.

I had melanoma, or actually last spring,

and I had it removed, so it's fine.

But I was really surprised because I'm someone who's like darker complexion.

yeah i like get dark very easily and but i never have been really focused on like wearing covering up like you know it's like no big deal i like would go to the beach i wouldn't wear a sunblock uh yeah i'd go out running i wouldn't purposely try to get a lot of sun but i also wouldn't avoid it and i mean even when i was younger i can remember like going in and like tanning a couple times just like

yeah i mean i think it's stupid now yeah yeah but like i was like you know 23 whatever i was like oh yeah i'm like just yeah, yeah, that's so stupid.

Being tanny was like attractive at that time.

It was attractive.

And it's like, now it's like, I'm so much more aware of that.

It's like, it makes so much sense to just cover up, like, you know, wear a hat,

wear a shirt.

I'm not always wearing a shirt.

Like, I mean, I went out running yesterday morning without my shirt on, but once it gets to like a certain time of the day, like nine or ten, right, I'm going to cover up.

And it's just being like, again, like critical of like what you're seeing, like, look at the actual evidence from like university research, that type of thing, versus just believing somebody you hear say something.

Well, social media makes it easy to see all these opinions these days.

Absolutely, right?

Yeah, you got Dave Asprey saying oat milk is terrible for you, almond milk is terrible for you, there's mold and coffee.

And you see that clip and it's easy to just believe it and see the comments.

Yeah, and I wonder like what the motivation is of some of the people that spread this stuff that's a lot of them have their own products.

Yeah.

So that's definitely a motivation.

There could be some people generally want to help, like I like Huberman's podcast, yeah, like Huberman, absolutely.

I think he has a very strong reputation overall, yeah.

But when I do see them have a product on the back end, I keep that in my head.

I'm like, all right, like, absolutely, you're gonna say whatever discerning, yeah, that's so powerful.

Yeah, you got to trust the research, man.

You got any rivalries in this sport?

You probably race against the same people all the time, yeah.

You know, uh, absolutely, but they're like they're like friendly rivalries, you know.

So, I mean, going back across, like, I mean, it's kind of crazy.

I've been running ultras for like three decades, and like, I've hit my peak, like, literally in just the last five years.

Whoa.

Yeah, the last three years, I was ranked the top 10 ultra runners in North America.

And it's kind of wild because I never came close to that in my 20s or my 30s, but it was just like continual like perseverance, like continually developing myself, learning

like how to train smarter, like the nutrition aspect, all that contributed.

But my rivals are also my friends.

It's like

you can't reach your pinnacle without having people

that challenge you, beat you, and then you have to come back and try to beat them.

It makes you a better athlete.

Absolutely.

So are you the only vegan in the top 10?

No, no.

Like Jim Walmsley is number one in the country, and he is a vegan.

Wow.

Yeah.

Okay.

So it's not like it's some rarity.

In fact, within ultra running, I'd say probably 15% of the runners are at the top level are vegans.

Interesting.

Or vegetarians.

Absolutely.

Wow.

Yeah.

There's a guy named Andrew Glaze.

He literally runs 100 miles a week.

He's done this for like four or five years and he's vegan.

Damn.

Like one of the things is like recovery time.

So like, like I said, yesterday I ran, you know, I went to Death Valley.

I went out to the Balwar Basin and like most of the people, they're getting out of their cars and they're walking out like maybe a half a mile and then turning around, getting back in their car.

Like, I'll run, I'll run all the way out to the middle of that salt pan, yeah, and then I'm gonna run back.

That's what I did.

Before I go to bed, I ran up a mountain

Saturday night.

Right down to bed?

Yeah, like right before I go to bed.

And your heart rate's still going, like, I calm down.

Oh, no, I calm down.

Yeah, yeah.

It's like just natural to me.

Like, it's become ingrained into my

habits.

It's like I run twice a day, like

every day.

And I know people that are ultra runners, like my friend Ed Roseau, he's like 86.

I met him at my first ultra.

He's still doing this, like at 86, like still, like, he's not doing 100 miles, but he's like 50 miles.

So

it's quite amazing what you are capable of if you don't abuse your body like with you know other things.

Like,

I mean, you see it every day, right?

So, um,

yeah, it, it's, it's,

it has like,

I think my experience can be impactful to anyone listening to the show because

you can always get better at whatever you're doing.

It's like

Dave Ramsey, he talks about it's never too late to start investing.

I mean, you could be 70 years of age and like.

You may be a smoker, you may be a drinker, you may be someone who never gets out and exercises.

You could like change your life dramatically by changing some of those habits today and also by like integrating some sort of fitness into your like your lifestyle.

Right.

And it's like the impacts I hear people say all kinds of excuses.

It's like

they don't want

to do it,

but it's like they don't realize like it's not just you're going to live longer.

It's like the quality of your years, what you're going to experience with the time you have here and like how you're going to feel.

Every aspect of your life will feel more energized

and you'll feel just better physically, mentally, spiritually by engaging in these activities.

100%.

On days I work out, I can notice a difference of my mindset.

Like I am way more optimized.

Yeah, it's absolutely huge.

Yeah, it's like,

I wish I could like have a couple days with every person I see that I might want to like get a wrestle them like into

a different direction 100% yeah because there's a lot of mental health I'm sure you're seeing it because you're a teacher right so you probably see it with your students yes but if they just worked out more got outside in nature I'm sure that would help them a little bit yeah absolutely absolutely like

it that's you know it's it we can be in like some stale environments and like we you know it's like being in Vegas like I have like this lovely love-hate relationship with Vegas Vegas.

I absolutely feel like elated when I arrive in Vegas, and I typically head out to Henderson, and then I head out to like one of the national parks near here or some wild place.

And I like certain things.

I mean, I love that they have the shows here.

But, and I love that, like, there's a lot of really good vegan restaurants in Vegas.

One of my favorite spaces.

That's surprising because we're in a desert.

Yeah, no, it's like Tacotarian is incredible.

If you've ever eaten a Tacotarian, it's amazing.

Okay.

Yeah.

I always have to make my whole food stop right on the strip.

I like Whole Foods.

Yeah.

So they have a lot of, this is probably my favorite Whole Foods in the whole country, right?

The one in Henderson?

The one right here that's on the strip.

Oh, that's a good one.

Yeah, it was right up from La Luxor and

right next to the airport.

It's like I didn't know that.

0.6 miles from the airport.

Okay.

Yeah, it's real nice.

I'll check that one out.

Yeah, they have a lot of options.

So, I mean, I have this love-hate relationship, but even like staying in the hotel and the strip yesterday, it's like, I can only tolerate so much time there it's like they have you imprisoned like it's hard to even like as a get out and walk around because it's it's not a very walkable place necessarily which hotel are you at i was at the treasure island okay yeah yeah plus the smoke from the yeah the smoke it just and it just feels like very uh

you know it's like the furthest you could come from like being in nature it's like you're in this like it feels like uh dubai day there's light dubai is like very much like we've created this artificial artificial world.

And I mean, I feel like a lot of people don't spend much time outdoors or like even in like your backyard, local park, something like that.

I mean, that's always going to make you feel just better.

100%.

It's always going to make you feel better.

Yeah.

I ground every day.

That's that's sweet.

Yeah.

That's sweet.

You know the Stanford, I don't know if they still do this, but the Stanford tracking track and field team and the cross-country team, they used to run barefoot.

Yeah.

Yeah.

There's been a lot of like evidence that that's powerful.

Like, one of the things about running really far is you have to have good form.

And so, if you're running barefoot, you're you're likely to develop good form because you just can't do it any other way.

You can't land on your heel.

If you're running barefoot, you're going to kill yourself, right?

But you feel some of those things are masked by the fact that the shoes today, some of the shoes today have very cushion, like lots of cushion in them.

So, people don't really feel that impact immediately, and then it's masked.

and then, like, a week or two weeks, or like, just what they're feeling in general, their knees or back, they hurt because

the way their form is.

Wow.

Yeah, it's a really, it's a true thing.

So, the shoes are super important, Bun.

Shoes can be really important.

Yeah, I wear Newtons, and I really love the Newtons because they're like, uh, they have cushion, but they're also like designed so that you land like you're barefoot running and you take off.

So, you're not like landing on your heel and like doing damage to your back and your knees.

Wow.

So, you're not supposed to land on your heel when you're running?

No, no, you're not supposed to run.

I'm pretty sure that's how I used to run.

Yeah, that's how I used to run too.

I definitely used to run that way

back in the day, but it's true.

Like you really want to be able to run like you would be running barefoot.

So I mean, you might just try it out, like run on like some grass for like little 40 meter strides, 40 yard strides like that could do it or like some like turf, like just so it's comfortable on your feet.

Good to know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Wow.

What about running backwards?

I had a, what's that guy's name?

Knees over toes guy.

Okay.

Ben Patrick.

Yeah.

Have you seen him?

I have not, but I've heard of people getting like world records running the marathon backwards and stuff.

Oh, you can run a marathon backwards?

I can't do that, but someone else did.

That sounds hard.

Yeah.

But he was basically saying walking and running backwards is good for injury prevention.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I could see that.

I mean, I don't do it, but like, I could see that benefiting you because you're kind of strengthening different muscles.

Right.

Well, it sounds like you're doing good with injury prevention anyways.

Well, I'm always learning.

Like, that's the thing.

Like, I've learned from being at the very bottom and like the least likely person to ever

succeed with running.

I learned is like you're always listening to other people, hear what they do, and like incorporating that into your strategies.

Right.

So, like, there's something I do.

Like, I hurt my foot on the Appalachian Trail.

I was running the whole length of it.

Did you roll it?

No, I like hit like, I kicked like 150 rocks.

Wow.

Like, just kick them because I fell down over a hundred times this whole back in 2018 was it steep uh yeah a lot of places were super steep and like um but i mean i i really did damage my foot like it's like splayed like this i went to like three different podiatrists they all told me different things and finally physical therapy the key was just like reorienting my balance and like literally every day when i'm flossing my teeth after brushing my teeth i balance on one foot with my knee raised and then i I balance on the other foot like when I'm flossing my teeth.

So it becomes part of my daily ritual.

And it's something that seems so like simple,

but it's creating equilibrium in your body.

And it's really important because a lot of times as athletes, we get something like our calf muscle or our Achilles

is like hurting or something's going on and it causes you to like...

change your form and then it causes some other injury somewhere else in your body.

I also go to like like a guy that does active release therapy.

So like he's does body work.

It's kind of like a sports massage,

but he's like a genius and he's very intuitive with the body.

He can like absolutely like tell when there's you have something like off.

Interesting.

So he adjusts you like a chiropractor?

He adjusts me, but he only focuses on a specific area of your body where you're having like trouble.

Wow.

Yeah, so like if my my calf muscles, like if I've got some calf muscle that's like really super tight, he'll just like find the trigger points with it or break up the scar tissue, these sorts of things.

It's like, it's incredible.

Like, I mean, he works on a lot of professional athletes, like with the Cis Di Res and Bengals in the past.

It's, but he also works on typical people.

I mean, there's people who've gone in to see him that were suffering from like tennis elbow or like some chronic injury for like the last 15 years and like they leave after one or two visits and they're like, wow, I feel totally different.

And you'll find active release therapists like in every city, major city in America.

I need to look into that.

I've been into that.

It's very powerful.

Yeah, I'd rather do that than a chiropractor because chiropractor is too broad.

It's like, yeah, I've only had limited experience.

I mean, I think like chiropractors can be really good too in their own domain.

It's just

I've really found that like this active release therapy is it's fast.

Like I don't have to like buy a big plan.

You can like go in and get a couple sessions and you'll find that it's really helpful.

I mean, your body is like a car in a sense.

Like, would you like neglect like your car to take it in to have like the tires rotated or oil changes, things like this?

But we're, we're very reluctant at times to go spend money on ourselves for something that really can impact our overall being for like decades and how we feel.

Period.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's super important.

Have you ever had to quit a race?

Stop early?

Yes.

Yeah.

So with the last person standing race, it's basically everyone is going until

they give up or they can't continue on.

So, that race only has one person who finishes, is a winner.

And I've run like eight of those races, and I've won, I think, three of them.

Wow.

Yeah, so there's been others where I've not been the last person.

But amongst, I've run over, let's say, I think 106 ultras in my lifetime, lifetime including like 50 races or 100 miles or more

and the one race I didn't finish was

back in 2010 I didn't finish a race called the Spartathon the Spartathon is this epic race that goes from Athens to Sparta and it traces the route of Pheidipides Phidipides is a famous Greek who we know the marathon modern day marathon from because he ran

to marathon to like announce the victory but he did this other run was 153 miles to Sparta to try and get the Spartans to help them in the battle.

And

so I did this race and I didn't finish it.

I made it to about 116 miles.

I like had all of these forces working against me.

Like our flight had emergency landing in the UK on the way over.

Yeah, people were hysterical.

We went from like 30,000 feet to landing in like 10 minutes.

Holy crap.

The pilot's like, if anyone has any laptops are on, please turn them off.

Like they thought there was a fire on the flight.

So that I didn't get to the race until like six hours before it started.

And there were some other things I ran the race too fast.

I was like in the lead with some Brazilian runner

and I didn't pace myself.

So, but what happened from that race is I took away a lot.

So it's when we get knocked down that we oftentimes learn the most.

And I learned that I never want to quit.

So

that's the last ultra I've ran in 2010 where it's actually like a race where there's you have a finish line that you cannot, you can't like,

I didn't go to the finish line, even though I had the opportunity.

And really, I told myself I didn't think I could make it when I got to 160 miles.

And I thought, like, I did the math in my head.

And if I would have kept going, I would have just made it after the time cutoff.

And I didn't want to risk, I think, failure.

Like, I was really not wanting to risk like like putting all that energy into it and then possibly failing despite all that energy.

But I learned afterwards, I went to the finish line.

I was watching these runners come in, some of them like looking as haggard as you could ever imagine, like just with the last ounces of their energy making it to the statue of Leonidas and touching it.

And I learned in that moment, I was like, I don't ever want to be, I don't ever want to quit again.

So the only time I've ever, I would ever quit is if I had like a medical emergency or I get timed out.

So like with the Backyard Ultra, I've gotten timed out.

I also do this crazy race in Tennessee called Barkley, which is like a famous secret race, sort of secretive race that happens in Tennessee.

And that race, I have not finished either.

So there's very few finishers of that race, only like 1% of the runners.

What makes that one so difficult?

You have to navigate.

You have to find your way.

You find these books are hidden in the woods.

What?

yeah so you have to climb the equivalent of mount everest two times and uh it's quite wild

holy crap mount everest yeah well you have to go up and down the equivalent of mount everest two times like 67 000 feet uh you have to like find books that are hidden in the woods so there's like 12 to 14 books uh it's like a scavenger hunt race it's kind of like a scavenger hunt there's uh the famous iconic race director Laz Lake, this guy with this motley beard.

He's been doing this for ages, and he sets out like the directions on like how you that he gives you these cryptic directions on how to find the folks.

So it's like go to the upper point, you got to find a certain type of tree, and there's going to be a rock that's the size of a Volkswagen, you know, such and such meters away.

And then you got to find it underneath like the edge of the rock.

So, I mean, it's very difficult to find.

So, that sounds harder than the actual running part, just like finding it.

It is.

It really is.

And a lot of times it's like very crazy in that area of Tennessee.

Like there's a lot of fog and it's

in

March.

There's only 40 competitors.

Damn.

Plus, the elevation is no joke.

Yeah, it's no joke.

I mean, basically, all sorts of people have tried to run this race, including special forces.

And most everyone gets really messed up.

Yeah, because I mean, just climbing Everest, people are out of breath.

So imagine running.

Yeah, but last year, or

this year, in fact, we had our our first female finisher oh whoa yeah jasmine parrice it was it was pretty incredible and uh that's another thing within our sport is we're seeing like women are uh in in many cases running equal to men and or superseding them in fact i mentioned the appalachian trail and uh another

like ultra runner tara um uh

Another ultra runner, she actually got the fastest known time on the Appalachian trail this year really yeah out of women and men or out of all men and women holy crap yeah yeah so i mean it's it's pretty amazing on uh my team for the last person standing we had americans uh we had 65 different countries and one of our two finalists was uh a female interesting yeah so i mean uh it's pretty amazing when i started in this sport back in the 90s

I knew it from the beginning.

Like I started seeing like

a famous runner back then was Sue Olson and she ran in Minnesota with me and she would win the race like beat all the men it was pretty incredible this was back in the 90s but it was only like shared like limited amount like that many people heard about only if you live in Minnesota but I mean I think that more people are hearing about like women like Courtney DeWalter you know it's just she she did this uh Fiji 100 or Mount Fuji 100 mile this year and she came in I think

second overall or third overall amongst like a field of like hundreds of people.

So, yeah,

so much is in your mind, your mental capacity, your mental mindset, and gender has less of an advantage the further you go in these races.

That's really interesting.

It is very interesting.

I wonder what's going on there because, yeah, the sprints, men are obviously better, but as it goes on, I guess the playing field gets more equal, huh?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

That's interesting.

Yeah, as well.

Have you done an Iron Man?

Yeah, yeah, I've done a couple Iron Man.

It was

kind of, I like the aspect of changing what you're doing.

You know, like, I like the swimming.

The swimming is my worst event in the world.

That one scares me the most out of the three.

Yeah, is that?

Swimming.

I look like I look ridiculous

sometimes.

But actually, that was the part of the race I enjoyed the most.

Swimming.

The swimming aspect.

Yeah, even though I'm traditionally known as a runner,

I loved being out.

If you're out in like open water and like you're swimming, it's very liberating.

It feels very free so i really love getting out i mean an ideal place would be like lake tahoe like imagine being swimming in that that beautiful water where you're it's crystal clear or like in greece like if you're out swimming between islands i've been there yeah it's beautiful beautiful yeah it's so incredible yeah it's unbeatable it's so amazing i did this uh adventure where you you swim between the islands wow yeah it was so cool and i'm not a very fast swimmer my cousin like was having to go back and forth back and forth like in front of me waiting for me but I think that's the thing is being open to doing new things and also growing like don't be stagnant like always researching finding new new ways to like improve yourself like the people probably listening to your podcast like to do you know it's like it's a big aspect of what I believe in yeah I love that man mindset's important

Yeah, yeah, and it's with teaching, it's another thing like I try to like really instill in my students is like, you know I think with teaching today is like I don't only think about like my curriculum like I think about character as well and also about like a million other topics like health and trying to

really

help kids to like you know grow into like whatever dreams they wish to pursue.

But I mean, like, there was a guest I was on the show like recently.

I don't know, you maybe can like help me with their name.

I just happened to catch it and they were like, they they said something like,

I think I wrote down here.

It was like,

what, oh, schools are teaching lies about America.

I was like, what in the world is this person talking about?

Do you know I'm talking about this?

I've had a few guests.

Yeah, it was like the guest in the last couple of weeks.

It was someone said something like Bash in Education.

I was like, man, you know, most of the teachers in this country would die for their students.

Literally die for their students.

I mean, you look at like,

and

education is not perfect.

Like, it absolutely isn't.

We could absolutely grow.

Yeah.

But there are a lot of positive things that are happening in education in this country.

Amongst every single student I have, I don't have a single student that I don't like love.

Really?

Absolutely.

I mean, I have some that give me a little like extra

edges, but I absolutely love every one of my students.

And like my class today is as incredible as any class I've ever had in my lifetime.

What are you teaching?

I teach financial literacy and AP government.

Okay.

Government.

Government and AP government are my primary classes.

Interesting.

I was teaching financial literacy up to last year, but the curriculum, for example, that's all adopted by the state government.

And, you know, so I mean,

like,

we've had some real benefits that, you know, COVID was a really rough time, no doubt about that.

And it was difficult teaching as well because you can't really get the same effect effect of like teaching online, personally, I feel, as you do in person.

Yeah, yeah.

But,

you know, since that time, like our, I teach in a public school.

In our district, we have tablets for every student.

We have like the technology that is available today versus where I started, even in like 2001, when I started teaching.

I was still using that chalkboard.

It's kind of crazy.

That advancement has happened in like 25 years to where now, you know, our kids have access to that.

Our kids don't have cell phones in our classroom.

Like the state of Ohio has passed law, a legislation so that there are no longer cell phones in the classroom.

I actually like that.

Yeah, I do too.

Like I'm always had like a board where kids would just put it up there when they came in a classroom anyway.

So it wasn't.

They won't be able to focus with those.

But now we have a pouch that they put it into every day.

And I've not had, I've had like two students challenge me on that.

And like that's only happened one time and then not again.

So it's like um, kids today are not like these you know, dragons that some kids have, and the teachers aren't either.

Like, I mean, uh, although I do have a little inner dragon that I sometimes pull out when I'm like my spirit animal

in these crazy races, right?

Um, but like, uh, yeah, I mean, I'm around teachers, and all my life I've taught in uh public schools, and I and I started off in a school that was a really challenged school 25 years ago

that like it was

the resources just weren't there.

But

that's another thing in our country.

Like everything is really diverse in terms of resources.

Like we teach, I teach in a public school in Cincinnati, but we have a strong tax base.

But if you go out to a rural county like Vinn County in Ohio, like those kids have very limited tax base.

And like if you're in Kentucky, teachers make like maybe 60% of what I make because of like the way that they fund schools there.

If you go to Mississippi, it's even worse.

So I mean so much is, and it's not just about funding, obviously, but that could be part of the puzzle.

And it's not just about teachers, although

you may have like a couple of bad teachers.

Yeah, but that's in any industry.

Any industry.

But the bulk of people that are there, they're there.

I see them there every single day because they care about kids.

And like, that's the truth.

I don't doubt that.

I don't doubt that most teachers want the best for their kids.

I think a lot of the complaints I'm seeing is the actual material that's being taught.

Yeah, that's really interesting because the material, by and large, is being produced by the state government.

And, like,

I think

the biggest critics on that are coming more from the conservative end.

Yeah.

And, like, Ohio is a largely Republican state.

Like,

our state government is absolutely controlled by the Republican Party at all levels.

So, I mean,

I don't feel like that the curriculum is particularly particularly biased to that end or to liberal end.

I feel like it's a fair curriculum.

Like, I feel like it's been produced, but I mean, I'd be curious to look at what specific things

that they were talking about with that.

But, like,

we're studying the Constitution.

Like, we're engaged in the Constitution.

We're looking at

the amendments.

We're not going off on some strange tangent.

And even though, like, for example, I'm a vegan, I don't like make my curriculum about veganism.

Like, you know, it's like, I don't,

my, my students know I'm a vegan because I have a vegetarian club that meets once a month where we provide like a potluck and like it's just a fun event.

But I don't talk about like veganism in class.

Like, you know, like, so, and there, there's a way that we have with like evaluating teachers.

I mean, we have that system in most states.

I remember that in my school.

Someone would come in like once a month.

Yeah, so I mean, it's like if you have, now it doesn't mean that there's not bad administrations.

There's not people that get,

I've seen crazy stories out there too, but those crazy stories, I feel, are the minority.

Right.

Like, you, by and large, most teachers are trying to like instill like positive, like, follow the curriculum.

And I mean, yeah,

I don't know, like, I feel like, you know, there's, there's, there's been more involvement in the last like

eight years, 10 years, six years in terms of like school boards.

Like, a lot of people are getting, I need to go find out what's going on in the school board.

There was never that before when I started teaching.

It's really strange.

Like, there's been this whole push of like,

what's being taught in the curriculum?

Like,

Yeah,

I hear in Florida, like, they banned AP African American history.

Whoa.

Yeah, did you hear that?

No, I didn't hear that.

So, I mean, I don't understand.

Like, I feel like,

you know, you can be patriotic and

love this country even greater by knowing the hardships we've experienced.

Yeah.

By knowing, like,

about

the segregation and like

understanding that period of Jim Crow and like how we've moved beyond that.

You know, so I don't understand how that

would injure

one of my students' students' feelings or make one of my other students feel like a victim.

You know, it's like the education I receive or that I feel we have today is even better than it was back when I was in school.

When I was in school, if you were to ask me, like, for example, and I'm social studies, so I'm not talking about other subjects.

But if you were to ask me about like,

who was

like I was asked by my one of my neighbors like about a history project for their child and they said, I remember this question coming to me when I was

a junior in high school.

They said, my kid needs to do research on an African-American figure.

And I was like, I only knew two people.

I was like, MLK or Rosa Parks.

And I was a junior in high school.

That was it.

So I feel like that education back then was much more Eurocentric.

And like today, we're much more looking at sources from multiple perspectives.

So, I mean, that,

you know, I think is important.

Like, I mean, it's important to have, like,

to look, to fill in the story with more than just one source.

You know, it's cool to see your perspective on this because I've never had a teacher come on and give their perspective.

I've had on a lot of guests criticize the public education system.

Yeah.

To be fair, those people are entrepreneurial in nature, and they're not really meant to fit in the public education system to begin with.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

And I love entrepreneurship.

Like, see, also financial literacy.

After the Great Recession, like the state of Ohio adopted adopted curriculum for financial literacy.

So we actually teach financial literacy.

And I did not get that growing up.

That's cool.

I didn't get that at all.

Like I didn't know about investing.

I know about like...

So they teach that in high school.

100%.

We teach that.

I mean, like,

I very much care about like, you know,

like

students knowing about like

the risk of debt

to know about like, I bring in entrepreneurs into the classroom.

And I love that.

Like, I love bringing those people in.

And every kid in America should get access to that so I I'm not up to date on like researching every single state so yeah I do believe every every single state must have like you know financial literacy into their curriculum you you shouldn't be allowed to graduate high school if you don't understand compound interests and like um the other basic models that everyone can benefit from.

It's as important to your life as like health, to understand your financial health.

You know,

there's absolutely, they go in, they're paired together.

For sure.

What do you think of the SATs and a lot of universities use that to determine if someone will get in or not, right?

Yeah, we do both SAT and ACT tests.

And I mean, I feel like

it shouldn't be discounted.

Like, I think that there is some benefit to having ACT tests.

Like, I mean, I think they should also look at other aspects of the kids.

Look at like, you know, how their grades are, look at what kind of, like, were they involved with extracurriculars?

Did they volunteer at all did they get any uh they have some strong letters of recommendation so i mean i feel like there's definitely a full puzzle but i wouldn't like totally eliminate testing altogether like i mean i know a lot of teachers complain about testing

like grading it takes a while

well like just that we we move our curriculum just towards testing.

So like I teach, like they may say, I don't want to teach a test.

But I do feel like it also, to me, is like a race.

Like I prepare to run a race like in Death Valley every July.

I've done it for the last 13 years and run the Bad Water 135.

And for me, that Bad Water 135 is an indicator of how I'm doing in terms of like my athleticism.

So, like, this last summer, I didn't have my best Bad Water 135.

So, I went back.

I want to redraw what I'm doing and go back at it.

And I feel like for us, with my class, we have a state test that is the last one that high school kids take and it's on government so it's all about the Constitution

and my kids they they've done really well in it they they perform way above the state average

and I feel like it's it's important for them because we have a goal of where we're getting to I mean that's not our only goal our goal is for you to become productive members of society to like be educated on like the Constitution

but also this is one of our goals out there we want to do well on the state test at the end so we had like 91% passage but I want to have a hundred percent passage so it's like but I feel like you know the the ACT SAT there there is some potential value I'm not as familiar about the SAT as I'm the ACT yeah but because I only I went to college in state

actually I went to Minnesota but I only need my ACT scores for that

But

I want to eliminate them altogether.

I think they're another,

they're valid, like um, they could be another valid point to, like, look at the full picture, you know?

Yeah.

I can agree with that.

Yeah.

They're so long, though.

Four hours.

God damn.

That's true.

Yeah.

I mean, I'm not, I'm not like, it's not like I love them.

Yeah.

But I also see some value if you didn't have any testing whatsoever and you only relied on

student scores and like curriculum.

I mean, I'm sorry, like extracurricular activities,

like their essays, letters of recommendation.

I mean, I feel like some of the students, they actually get scholarships through those tests.

The high scores, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

So, I mean, I've known students that have gotten, that come from like a disadvantaged background, that have been able to like get somewhere

because of their test scores.

Oh, nice.

So, I mean, that's one other reason why I see it.

But I empathize.

I mean, I don't think that should be like the whole piece.

Like, okay, we're just going to look at the test scores.

No way.

100%.

Yes.

You said you had a bad race in bad water this year, and then you ended up running it twice, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So basically,

I was running, like, I ran this race, and it's, it's 135 miles.

It's like 120 degrees,

and

it's extremely hot.

So you're just like beating your body.

And normally

I never get like as tired as I did this time at like about mile 35.

I was just really getting dehydrated.

I worked through that.

Then I made it to about mile 100 some.

And I like literally

just staked out, which means I took a break from the race.

I went and cooled off and I came back, which you're allowed to do within the rules.

But I wasn't happy that I did that.

Like when I came back, I felt revived, but I also was really like kind of

mad with myself for not fighting through that fatigue because I felt like mentally I had given up.

Like I had more in me, but I didn't want to go to that place where I feel that extreme discomfort.

Got it.

So I was like, but it's also an enlightening place.

And so I didn't want to like,

when I restarted the run, then about five hours later, after like cooling off, getting a nap, et cetera, I felt really fresh and I was running up the mountain, Mount Whitney.

I made up about three or four miles up the mountain, and I just had this epiphany hit me: like,

I want to go to the finish line, and I want to turn around, and I'm just going to run right back to the start.

Again, so it's going to be 270 miles.

I didn't know if my crew would be agreeable to that.

So, when I got to the finish line, I basically told my friend Judd, who was my crew chief, I was like, hey, what do you think about turning around now and just going back to the start?

He's like, well, I don't have anything else going on, so let's go do it.

So,

one other crew member of mine, Isaac, he jumped in and like they helped to crew me.

Like they've just drive down the road a couple miles and then like I would just get drinks on the back, et cetera.

But it was kind of wild because that's a race I've been running for like now 13 years.

And I never turned around at the finish line and ran all the way back.

And if I would have said that at the start line, that was going to go all the way there.

135 miles, turn around and come back, that would have, I would have said, hell no, like absolutely not.

But

something happened, and it just like tugged at my inner, like, spirit to like, just do this.

It was, it was difficult, it was really tough, especially the last like marathon because it was

going back to the hottest place in Death Valley.

It was over 120 degrees.

Jesus.

And it was a wind into our face.

It was like hot wind.

It was really hot wind.

It just like goes right across that hot black pavement and it just heats you and uh

but it was it's what's exciting about this stuff is when you think you're at your end you're not at your end and you have a way to like pull more from yourself because it takes like nutrition it takes like pacing it takes like sometimes you have to stop and and like stretch or do something like that But there's more within each of us than we ever dream.

Yeah, you remind me of David Goggins, man.

You guys are machines out there.

Yeah,

I love David.

I mean, I think he and I are different individuals.

Like, we're both

really hard, as he would say.

Like, I would love to go to the end with him,

but we both come from a different strand.

Like, he's going to come at you and say, motherfucker, you got to get going right now.

And I'm like, more like

the quieter teacher mode.

You're like the philosopher who's

and I love his approach and I know like a lot of people that resonates with them they like being you know that that hardness of just being like get

your military approach.

Yeah, go

and like with my students or people that I come with across like I I just try to reason like try to reason and

Yeah, I mean, that's It's just a different different angle, but yeah, I love what he does.

Have you ever yelled at a student or gotten angry, super angry?

Yeah, I have, but I don't like to do that.

Like,

I don't usually do that.

Like, normally, like, one of the things about the running

or working out, like you like to do, is it just calms you.

So, like, I never, I always run commute to work.

So, every single day for 11 years, I run to work and run home from work.

Wow, every single day.

Do you show up sweating to school?

No, I change.

So, I got my suit, tie, and my backpack.

I like throw that on.

Yeah, I like carry

my laptop, my food, everything's in my backpack.

It's like 5K each way, but a lot of days I'll run 10 miles to work, 10 miles home.

And like that way,

I make sure I work out.

But I also like I get to work and I have like the right mindset.

Like I feel like ready to engage with the students.

I'm like not bringing in too much extra baggage.

And like if I have a rough day with the class or some for some reason, which doesn't happen that often, then I just running home, it's gone.

It's like meditation almost.

It's meditation, absolutely.

So, yeah, I mean, I don't like typically yell at students.

I don't like to do that.

I mean, last year, my student teacher was a Marine, and he was amazing.

And he never yelled one time the whole school year.

And he got the kids' attention by speaking to them and reasoning with them.

And it was beautiful.

Yeah, I got some traumatic memories getting yelled at as well.

Yeah, that's all right.

Yeah, but I can't say I never did it.

I mean,

25 years, yeah.

I mean, but when I do something that I don't, like, I try to catch myself.

So, like, this last week, my, my dog died.

Oh, sorry.

Yeah, yeah.

He was an amazing dog.

He was a rescue dog.

Chance.

And like that day at school, I had like my second bell.

There was just like some, like, a little bit, like people weren't engaged like I wanted them to.

And someone, like, said, I addressed someone and said something like,

I said someone's name wrong or something.

And I was like, well, my dog died.

You know, and it's like, yeah, and it was, I didn't yell, but then afterwards, I was like, it made me think about it.

I was like, oh, you know, I definitely wanted to, like, you know, talk to that student and be like, hey, I'm sorry.

I didn't mean to like snap back that my dog died or something.

You know, just because that's like,

I think about that.

Like, that, that could have a bad impact on my student.

You know, so.

That takes a big person to admit that because I've never seen a teacher like apologize after they yell at someone, you know.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

I mean, it's, I don't think it gets us too far.

I mean, there are times where I want to like yell at someone like to to get some sense into someone maybe if i'm pushed to my end but usually that's not the way that you're actually going to like break through you know and with me as a kid i was i was a bad student oh you were yeah i normally had like d's just scraping by wow it was that marathon that i talked about that changed everything for me because i found something to go that i found that formula i started to find the formula i was still finishing the back of the pack but i found that persistence, with persistence, you can do anything on this planet.

And with enough persistence and work ethic, you can achieve anything.

So that was a real key moment.

I love the aspect for me personally.

It helps me like that I was a bad student because I didn't change things around until like I was later in high school.

And in college, and that helps me with like...

working with the kids that may be struggling they didn't have like success before and and i still don't uh have success with every student.

Like I'm, I have students in my mind right now that I'm thinking about that tomorrow, how am I going to engage them?

Because I want them to

move into a different direction.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

At the end of the day, it's, it's on them as well.

So you can't

100% influence everyone.

That's it.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

But I agree with you, man.

I was a bad student too, but persistence is how I made it in podcasting.

I film more than anyone I know.

And just that work ethic and volume is what got me to one of the top shows.

How did you make that transition?

I mean, it's crazy, incredible that you went from, you started this in 2023.

Yeah,

22 months ago.

That's incredible.

So 1,200 episodes in 22 months.

That might be a world record.

That might be a world record.

Because Rogan's at 2,400 in 15 years.

That's crazy.

And right now, you're doing a fasting.

I'm doing a two-day fast right now.

I just got a Pernuvo health scan done on my body.

So I want to fast and, you know, get my body.

I'm really curious about the fasting.

Like, I mean, I've you done it?

I've done like little bits, but never seriously.

You probably couldn't because of how much you run.

I don't think it would work.

I think you could do it just for like short periods.

You know, like it's part of your like your biggest thing.

I meant a long one, though.

Yeah, I'm not sure.

Like, I would be curious.

Like, you know, I think I could do it, but it would affect my training.

But you could incorporate that into like your training.

Like, yeah, maybe, okay, this is my lower mileage part of my 48 hours a week.

Yeah, maybe your off-season or low mileage part of the season.

You could do it.

Yeah, you could definitely do it.

There's some interesting studies on it, like a three-day fast and how it can reverse certain things in your body.

I would look into it.

I think the other aspect I'm curious about is like just the philosophical,

the spiritual aspect.

Yeah.

Like, I think that there's something also

you might be able to like, it's like get to a meditative state a little bit differently.

They call it runner's high, right?

That's different, though, too.

But I mean, with the fasting, I think.

But yeah, runner's high is absolutely absolutely something real.

Like you, you get like an elated, but that you need, I would think you need like, you need the nutrition.

Yeah.

You need the power because it's hard to like be going 100%.

And a lot of times with the runner's high, it's like it's like a concert.

Like imagine you're like driving a convertible and you're like listening to your favorite music or that, like you get that feeling, like tingly feeling all over, that sensation.

And that's what runner's high is.

It's like you've,

I've got that maybe when I was running in in the 270 miles and I turn around and I come back down off Mount Whitney and I'm looking at this incredible vista and I just get this tingly sensation over my whole body and I feel euphoria that I couldn't like I could just go forever.

Wow.

Yeah, it's a wild experience.

I wonder what that is, like scientifically, what's going on there.

I think it's like the endorphins kicking in your body.

Like it's it's the brain chemistry.

Yeah, the human body's so fascinating.

Yeah.

We're still figuring out what's going on.

It is wild.

I love it.

It is wild.

But

longevity, like running, like, is,

it's just about taking care of your body.

I mean, like, I've been doing this for now almost 28 years.

And it's like, I'm still

looking next year to compete in a world championship.

And I would love to go back and win that race.

And it's like.

You can like my friend who's 102.

He got cancer at 69.

He changed

his lifestyle.

The doctors say he had three months to live.

He changed to eating all vegan foods,

got reduced stress in his life.

And

he does more pull-ups than I do.

He literally does pull-ups every night.

That's awesome.

So it's like

there's

an interesting age we live in.

It is.

But you've got like, you've got some.

folks are like on the extreme end of like, you know, health and nutrition and doing crazy things.

things and then you've got a lot of americans are like struggling now like i look at my hometown in ohio in circleville like a third of the people um i go into like kroger or anywhere like that are like really suffering from obesity and it's like uh it that that has an impact on your mind as well like your mental health

it's it's um

you know so there's absolutely uh the the the the modern currents like that a lot of the currents that we're getting through our marketing and like advertising is like, it's only furthering like this epidemic of like

poor health

in the country.

Yeah, I used to eat like shit and I had brain fog every day.

Yeah.

Can you imagine that?

Like think about schools, for example.

Like we talk about

comparing our country to the other 35 countries or 25 countries in the world.

And like why are we not performing as well?

And like one of the biggest challenges is that kids do not have adequate nutrition in school, period.

I mean, they're, I mean, we're trying to provide it.

The school lunch is a lot of fun.

They're trying to provide it.

Like, our school district has really made some shifts and they've really tried to do a better job.

But when you look across the whole country, a lot of kids come to lunch or breakfast or come to class, come to school with like chips and a soda.

That used to be me, yeah.

Steve's

chips.

How in the world can you learn math or study science without getting enough nutrition?

So, I mean, you know, school,

really reevaluating, like, you know,

what we're providing to our kids and providing adequate nutrition to our kids would be a huge difference.

One of the things I was surprised about with my school district is they actually have a vegan option every day now in every school in my district.

It's like kind of crazy.

Now, our breakfast still could use some help,

like in my mind, but

there are some shifts.

Like we finally have like a salad bar.

Like they never had that when I was growing up.

Definitely not.

I don't know.

I mean, so there are some shifts.

Like they don't sell soda in our school anymore.

You can't buy soda.

But like when you look at analyzing like our performances, like also look at like those other

meters, like what's happening with our kids versus...

other kids like are we getting enough like of these the nutrition and like we've kind of pushed aside physical education and the arts.

Like, you know, there's so much concentration on the

core academic subjects.

But those subjects, like orchestra, someone is playing orchestra, they're more likely to do better in math as well by performing an orchestra.

And like having these other arts, they're more likely to balance out these kids so that they have an outlet so that they're able to succeed in the other subjects.

Absolutely.

There's a whole big picture out there.

There's some work to do, but I think we're on the right path.

It is.

We are on the right path to a degree.

Yeah, we are on the right path.

But we, yeah, it's it's a challenge.

I mean,

you know, President Trump, love him or hate him, you know,

he said some like, you know, flamboyant things.

And I think that that's in our concerns.

Like, you know, he's a leader of our country, president-elect.

You know, I mean, he said recently that kids could go to a public school and get a sex change and not even get the parents' permission.

That's the most outrageous statement I've ever heard of.

And I'm not picking on people if they vote for Harris or Trump,

but really thinking about

if 5% of people believe that,

I can't even,

as teachers, we can't even take kids out the front of the school without a permission slip.

A lot of displays.

I mean, there's so much permission slip.

So there's no school in America that that's the case, but you have our you know our president-elect saying that so it's it's a it's a concern it you know that that there's a lot of misinformation that that's being sent out there uh that have parents like in hysteria like at these school board meetings and etc when when reality isn't really so yeah yeah a lot of mistrust with parents and teachers right now yeah it's probably at an all-time high i say you're right yeah with the media yeah well harvey it's been cool getting to hear from you man it's really cool to hear from you and and I'm definitely excited to hear about the rest of your fasting experience.

Thank you.

And keep up with the basketball.

Yes, sir.

That's really sweet.

And it's amazing that you've had this podcast for how many months now?

22.

22 months.

So do you have any like goals in the next like two years of like where you want to be?

Yeah, two years.

I want to break the world record for number of podcast episodes.

I want to be top three on Apple for overall shows.

I think right now we're like 100 for overall.

In our category, we're number one.

And then I want to be top 100 on Spotify as well.

That's really sweet.

Yeah.

Go get it.

Yes, sir.

Go get it.

Thanks for coming on.

I appreciate it.

Thanks for watching, guys.

See you next time.

Cheers.