How Trauma Shapes Law Enforcement: A Candid Talk | Joe Smarro DSH #873

In the military, especially if they've never deployed into an active combat zone and now they're police officers, but it's very similar culture of like it's you know the world is dangerous, you're gonna die, you always gotta be prepared.

And you know, I think it creates a lot of the issues that cops are facing today, right?

Like power dynamics, right?

Big time.

Yeah, certain cops, you, I mean, the videos are viral.

You could see they're obviously dealing with some trauma that's unaddressed, and they're now taking it out on people.

All right, guys, first guest ever from

San Antonio.

We got Joe Samara here today.

Thanks for representing, man.

Absolutely, Sean.

Thank you, brother.

Appreciate it.

You born and raised there?

No, I'm from New York, actually.

Yeah, upstate New York, about three and a half hours north of the city, straight up the Hudson River in a small town called Lake Luzerne.

Very small.

I've been to upstate once.

I actually thought it was beautiful.

It is.

It is.

And then

when I, and we'll talk about it, but when I joined the Marine Corps, I was stationed in Southern California.

And so when I got out, I was like, I do not want to go back to the winters of it.

It's beautiful, but the winter's not for me.

And so that's how I ended up in San Antonio.

especially the upstate oh man you're probably getting a foot of snow a week easily easily snow days were fun as a kid but uh yeah i just thought living there as an adult having to be responsible for all of that yeah was not appealing to me oh as a kid they were my favorite memories when school got snowed out yep i mean it's hard to beat that i had an old buick and we would take it to the parking lot of the school when it's closed and just do donuts and slamming snowbanks because we're kids i love it man yeah sometimes i miss the innocence of being a kid absolutely i feel like as we get older we get so uh inundated serious Like we have too serious.

And then we're taught to shut down, which we're getting in the mental side of things, just not open up about anything.

Yep.

Or else you're seen as weak.

100%.

Which is everything I'm fighting against.

Yeah.

Right.

So when you were in the Marines, did you experience that?

Yeah, quite a bit.

And I, you know, I grew up fast in the Marine Corps.

You know, I tell people in life, you're either running from something or towards something.

And I was definitely, the only reason I joined the Marine Corps was because I had my first kid, my senior high school.

Whoa.

Don't recommend.

And the Marine Corps recruiter did a great job.

He came came in and was like, hey, buddy, I hear you're having a baby.

And I was like, yeah, you know, because I wanted to go to college to play soccer.

I was actually a stud, believe it or not, back then.

And,

and, but when you have a baby, it changes things.

And my daughter will be 25 now next month.

And, um, but, you know, he did a great job of just reassuring me that, hey, we're going to help out.

You know, you won't have to worry financially, healthcare, it's all covered.

What he didn't do a great job of was giving me some guarantees that, you know, I'm a naive kid.

Right.

And he was asking me things like, what do you want to do?

And I said, play soccer.

He said, the Marine Corps has a soccer team.

And I was like, what?

He said, where do you want to be stationed?

I said, the Northeast.

He's like, all right, man, we got you.

Do you want to deploy?

I said, no.

And he was like, awesome.

So non-deployable Northeast soccer.

I was like, yep.

And I signed a contract.

And the only thing that came true of that was I played soccer one time in Iraq against shoeless children.

What?

So, yeah, he didn't lie to me per se, but it wasn't exactly what I had in mind.

So maybe some white lies.

Yeah.

Do you think he kind of preyed on your insecurities at the time you know i don't i don't think it was intentional so i joined in 2000 so it was pre-9-11.

And everything was pretty normal, you know, and the Marine Corps, they tell you it's about the needs of the Marine Corps, it's not about you.

And so when I got stationed in Southern California, I was terrified because I was so young.

You know, I'd never left my family or home.

And so moving out to Southern California was a rude awakening for me.

It was a culture shock being from upstate New York.

And then when 9-11 happened, I find myself deployed into Afghanistan.

And I'm like, what is happening right now?

Like, I'm supposed to be in college playing soccer.

And that's something that, you know, I really, it took me a long time to realize that I was just kind of a passenger in my own life.

You know, even why I joined the police department was because when I got out of the Marine Corps at 22, I didn't have a college degree.

I had no real life experiences.

And so then I just was like, well, what should I do next?

You know, and I moved down to San Antonio.

What has a good pension, health care, kind of consistent to the military is policing.

And I think that's a problem.

But it was just an easy transition into policing, but it probably was not the best transition for me.

Yeah, I've heard a lot of former military join the police, right?

I wonder what percentage.

So it's actually, I researched this, and it was lower than I thought.

It was about 30%, 30 to 35%

of law enforcement's prior military, which is fascinating because I thought it would be much higher as much as you hear.

law enforcement agencies talk about being paramilitary.

And I've never been a fan of that since I've done both.

And I think a lot of police officers that they have this this gung-ho spirit, this idea that they are in this like paramilitaristic organization,

kind of losing sight of the fact that you're actually just serving your community.

And it's not a war zone in most cities in America.

But the mindset is a huge issue of, you know, people who have never been in the military, especially if they've never deployed into an active combat zone.

And now they're police officers, but it's very similar culture of like, it's, you know, the world is dangerous.

You're going to die.

You always got to be prepared.

And, you know, I think it creates a lot of the issues that cops are facing today.

Right.

Like power dynamics, right?

Big time.

Yeah.

Certain cops, you, I mean, the videos are viral.

You could see they, they're obviously dealing with some trauma that's unaddressed and they're now taking it out on people.

Yeah.

And, and it's, I don't know if you realize the insight of that statement, Sean, that you say is someone that hasn't, you weren't in the military or police, right?

Yeah.

And so, but that insight is, is profound because so few police officers or people in the community, to that matter,

recognize that.

You know, they really don't understand that anytime you see a viral video of an officer losing their mind or they're on the side of the highway just losing their shit on somebody, knowing they're on camera, knowing people are filming them, knowing it's going to get out.

What I've always said is it has nothing to do with that person in that moment.

If you were just to look back like 72 hours of what I call a situational autopsy and just look into this officer's life, I guarantee you there's more going on.

Something's going on at home.

Some needs not being met.

He's not sleeping.

He's something's wrong.

And And again, it's hard to have empathy because the expectations are so high in policing.

It's because you have all this authority.

You're supposed to get it perfectly right every time.

But people forget that, like, cops are just people and they're just as,

their brains are the same.

We, we struggle.

And when we have a culture that doesn't really afford the opportunity to come forward and say, I'm not doing well, because of fear of discipline, punishment, taking your gun away, putting you on the bench, allowing you not to do your job, then a lot of them are like, well, I'm just going to keep keep this in.

And it just leads to a lot of the issues that you're talking about, where it's going to come out somewhere.

What I tell people is when you don't listen to the words of someone, the behaviors are always going to reveal the truth.

And that's when you see someone acting out.

It's a cry for help, right?

It's a call for love.

It's a call for something.

But instead,

many police agencies will just throw the book at them and punish them, be like, you violated this SOP.

Now you get a one-day or a five-day or 30-day suspension.

Now that officer, how they internalize that is, I'm struggling personally.

I did this thing at work, which was a mistake, and now I'm being punished for it.

I guess I am just a piece of shit.

And now I'm just like, what's the point anymore?

And they really start to become hard on themselves.

And it kind of just pushes the issue further and further along and makes it worse and worse.

Right.

And then you see alcoholism, you see some drug issues come into play, and it amplifies everything.

Take time.

So you spent 11 years on the mental health unit.

So I didn't know police stations had that.

Yeah.

And it's getting more and more popular.

So ours started back in 2009 as a pilot project.

And it was, you know, one of the first, they've been around for a while, but not a lot, especially large agencies.

And

so, you know, we started it in 2009 as a pilot program.

There were two officers that pushed it a lot of data because data sells everything in law enforcement.

And so the chief was like, yep, this is good.

Let's make it a unit.

And when it became a full unit, it was only four of us.

And that's when I applied and got it.

And I was like, this is amazing.

Like, this to me is what police work should be.

And, but I'll be honest, Sean, I was a hypocrite for the first 18 months or so.

And

I know we're not not technically in order on this, but I was a mess.

When I got into policing, I was not well, but it was really masked.

And just to go back, if you don't mind, to just give context,

you know, I had a lot of childhood trauma growing up,

you know, sexual abuse starting at seven years old, a lot of physical abuse from my father up until about 15 or so when I was like, I just, I'm not going to deal with this anymore.

He got after my parents split

because my parents were married, my dad was in the Navy, and he was on a routine med float deployment.

We were down in Norfolk, Virginia, and my mom, you know, had an affair and that guy started, you know, not just with my mom, but also molesting me.

And

that went on for a while.

And,

you know, at some point, you know, I mentioned that this is happening and it gets dismissed, as which is common of like, you know, from my mother saying like, hey, that's not happening.

We don't say that.

Yeah.

And back to my point earlier of when you make an outcry and it's not received, then you're going to do something.

So we're on base housing.

My sister's 10.

I'm seven.

My mom's sleeping on the couch.

It's a weekend.

I go into her purse.

She used to be a smoker.

I grabbed a book of matches.

I go into my bedroom, shut the door.

I'm laying underneath my bed and I'm trying to set my bed on fire.

And eventually, after several matches, the bed catches on fire.

I panic.

I roll out, go bang on the door, wake, tell my sister, get out of the tub, wake up my mom.

And we go outside and the fire department shows up quick.

It didn't burn the house down, but it burnt the bed, the floor, and part of the wall.

And I'm standing outside, not really realizing the severity of what I had done, but I'll never forget this moment the fireman walks out to me.

Now, I believe truly that most all people are doing the best they can with what they have based on what they know.

And this fireman didn't know any better, but I wish in this moment, because he came out real aggressive and he was like, young man, like what we call the knife hand in the Marine Corps, right?

He goes, young man, if you ever start another fire again, you'll spend the rest of your life in prison.

You understand me?

And I was like, whoa.

So I started crying.

I'm like, I don't want to go to prison.

And a lot of the work I do now with our company, Solution Point Plus, is we teach de-escalation techniques to first responders, but not just first responders, healthcare workers, social workers, teachers, it doesn't matter, but we teach human behavior of how to slow down.

I write about it a lot in the book, but I say everything begins with curiosity.

Focus on the person, not the problem, right?

If that fireman would have thought, like, surely this is not a seven-year-old arsonist, right?

Let me pull him to the side and just be like, hey, buddy, what's going on?

Like, why did you do this?

Is there something happening in the house that you're trying to tell us?

And, you know, instead of being offered help or hope, I was threatened.

And the abuse continued.

Eventually, you know, my sister gets a hold of our grandmother.

And, you know, my dad ends up having to get pushed out of the Navy with 12 years, finds out his wife's cheating on him.

His kids have been molested.

So he becomes an alcoholic.

And I went from school to school to school, different family member, grandparent, just

all over the place.

And my dad had like three relationships after my mom.

And every one of them was abusive.

Every one of them openly cheated on him.

Wow.

And I was just like,

it was terrible.

But my nickname was Smiley.

and I was the class clown.

But I was acutely suicidal at 15 years old.

I was just so tired of all the suffering and the pain and no one knowing about it.

But I also, as a kid, you don't know how to use your words in that way.

So I got involved in sports and just trying to really avoid and distract feeling anything.

And then that's how I have my kid, right?

It was because I was just an irresponsible kid that wasn't guided, didn't have, and it's not an excuse.

I just, I didn't have any parental love.

So I have my kid, go to the Marine Corps, two tours, traumatizes the hell out of me.

I'll never be a combat veteran that says, you know, I'm a hero.

I didn't belong over there.

I was trained for it for sure.

The Marine Corps did a great job.

But the first time I shot and killed someone in Iraq, I broke.

Like I went into a dark place, man.

And the fact that I got celebrated for it

and my gunnery sergeant came up and was like chanting, proud of me, happy.

Like, and I was like, dude, this does not feel good to me, but I got to survive it.

And I became really good at just surviving the darkness.

And so then I get on the police department, 364 days into my policing career.

Our probation period is one year.

One day before probation, you're still an at-will employee.

And I get a call for a guy yelling in a parking lot, screaming,

basketball shorts, no shirt, no shoes.

I pull up.

There he is, just staring off into space, flat affect, trying to talk to him.

He won't engage.

I'm like, hey, man, I got to get you identified.

Walk him to my car.

As soon as we get to the car, he pulls away, punches me, fights on.

I call for help.

It was right at shift change.

Seven minutes, 24 seconds before cover showed up, which is a long time to fight, as you know.

And as soon as we got, no ASP, no taser, no pepper spray, nothing.

As soon as we got him handcuffed, he died right there in our arms.

And so I have an in-custody death.

I'm put out for eight weeks thinking I'm going to lose my job.

The media portrays, you know, this, this guy by his name, 35-year-old father of five, killed by the police.

And I'm like, I got out of the military because I was tired of being around death.

And now here I am as a cop contributing to someone else's death.

Now, he was on so much cocaine, the autopsy revealed.

His heart was like enlarged four times times what it should have been.

But, you know, it just, it put me into a dark, dark place where I was like, I can't escape death.

I can't escape darkness.

And I'm not proud of this, but truly, like,

and I'm thank God that my

vice was never alcohol or heroin or meth or anything that has like a criminal element, but it was women.

And that was my drug.

And I hated myself.

I was a super insecure man.

I didn't believe I deserved love or anything good.

So then I would use women to validate me.

And that's how by the time I was 30 years old, I already had three divorces, four kids from three women.

And

now I'm on the mental health unit, showing up every day, telling people the greatest device in the world.

Just if you just take your meds and go to the doctor and do everything you're supposed to do, you won't have to worry about the police showing up and being mad.

But it was about 18 months into my mental health career where I was like,

I'm a problem.

And this was 15 years ago.

And I walked into the VA and I was like, look, in San Antonio, you know, we've got the Center for Intrepid.

We've got level one burn centers.

Like I'm used to seeing people very physically injured.

And I'm like, I'm fine.

Like, I survived the military.

And it was my therapist really quickly that started teaching me about the mental side of like, man, just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's not real.

And, you know, now I'm service connected, disabled through the military.

I've been in treatment for 15 years now.

I still go every month.

And it's been a huge, huge blessing for me.

But what I learned is the more I was willing to help myself, the more I could see myself and other people and realize that even if you have a serious mental illness like schizoaffective disorder or you're on methamphetamine, you're not different than me.

You're just in a different place than me.

And now I can be this like beacon of hope for somebody that's in their darkest place because while it might not be the exact same, I've never struggled with drugs.

But again, what I call the four plagues of the first responder is chips, tits, Netflix, and sprints.

The things that we will use to avoid feeling anything, right?

And so, yeah, maybe you don't use meth, but you're addicted to food or alcohol.

And then it's like, well, this whole compare and despair thing of like, well, it's not that bad.

So I guess it's not bad at all.

It's bad.

And we know that if we're doing these things behaviorally to avoid feeling something, there's a, there's an issue there.

And so it's just, it's been my life's work now, man.

And I still, it feels selfish.

Every time I go to therapy, it's like, yes, this is for me first, always, but how can I use what I'm going through and what I'm learning right now to heal to help someone else, whether it's in my speaking, my teaching, my writing, whatever it is?

Because I don't, I don't feel like anything is unique in this world.

And we're all just trying to figure it out and experience the same thing, right?

Absolutely.

That's a little bit of the high-level background of me, man.

Love it, man.

Thanks for sharing all that.

So, 18 months into the mental health unit, was there a specific moment that caused you to realize?

My wife leaving me.

Your third wife, or was it?

So, my second and third wife are the same because I go hard at life, Sean.

So, I married her twice.

And, you know, she's leaving me saying, hey, I hate you, but something is seriously wrong.

Like, something's not right.

And, and I believed it.

You know, I just, again, it was so hard for me to to accept that.

And,

you know, it was hurt.

I was so frustrated of like, you know, I'm having kids that I don't get to raise.

I just, I wanted a family, but it was like, why is this not working?

Why do I?

And I learned that as my therapist told me, like, Joe, you thrive in chaos, right?

When things are going well for you, you panic.

So you're going to sabotage yourself.

So whatever that is.

So like, uh-oh, if I'm in a relationship, my wife starts to treat me really well or my girlfriends treat me well, it's like, how can I ruin this?

Because I don't trust it's going to last, right?

And so because I know she's going to leave me, she's going to cheat on me, just like everyone else did growing up in my family, you know, to my father, for sure this is going to happen to me.

And so because I'm so confident in that, let me hurry up and do it myself.

And then I don't have to feel that pain.

I was the one causing it.

And

again, I truly believe now as a 42-year-old, like everything is my fault.

Everything is my fault.

Like I have to take ownership.

What happened to me as a kid wasn't my fault?

Everything I do now as an adult is my fault.

And the saying to help me with this is that, you know, I've learned to become grateful for the things I wish never happened and truly turning those those dark moments into gratitude so that i can heal those and now again empower and help other people that are struggling love it yeah i had that self-sabotage too not with women though with friends okay i would get too close and then cut them off man but it was all stemmed yeah stemmed from trauma right so i had to fix that and now i have some real friendships i'm proud to say but awesome yeah back then they were all just putting on a show

wasn't actually my friend so i had some trauma from that i think but now i'm just myself which is the beauty of it all right it's it's also very freeing you know it's like you have a, most people have their representative self, the self that I create, that I allow other people to see or experience.

But, you know, it's like, if the only thing in life that truly matters is how you feel about yourself when you're by yourself, then how you live in.

I love that.

And if the scariest place in the world for a man to be is alone in their thoughts.

So many people avoid it, right?

And so I tell people just, it's kind of an invitation, but think about this tonight when you lay down and go to bed.

Right before you fall asleep, there's that moment.

Even if you have chaos in your bedroom, a spouse, kids, pets, whatever, right before you fall asleep, you're just it's quiet.

And where does your mind go?

A lot of people, you're either future tripping about something that's not yet here, or you're past dwelling on something that's already done.

And we really rob ourselves of the present moment of just experiencing gratitude of what is.

Like, I'm in a bed, hopefully, right?

If you're listening to this and you have access to podcasts, I imagine you probably also have a bed or some means.

I'm financially, you know,

I'm employed.

I'm safe.

Like, we just lose perspective of the things that actually matter.

And I love what you said, Sean, of, because I tell people, I think there's few people in the world that truly genuinely know who they are.

They have an idea of who they think they want to be.

They have an idea of who they feel safe around with other people.

But if you were to really reveal the truth of who you are, what would that look like?

And would people start kind of backing away?

Like, ah, this guy's weird or like, this guy doesn't jive with me.

I don't know.

And so I'm glad that you found that and that you stepped into your truth band.

And it clearly seems to be working for you.

Yeah.

No, it's powerful.

It's great being able to sleep at night knowing, you know, I'm giving it my all.

I'm living in the present.

When I was growing up, I lived in the past probably every day until after college, honestly, just worrying about what people think about me,

where I went wrong in conversations.

But that's a bad way to live

in the past.

Yeah, I call it the disease to people, please.

And many people have it, right?

It's this idea that, you know, and so many people live their lives in accordance with other people's expectations of them, whether it's family, parents, schools, society, based on who you are, what you are, you should be, your environment coming up.

You know, a lot of people don't realize that the single greatest predictor in our country to predict the success of an adult into, from childhood into adulthood, is their zip code.

So based on that zip code, it's like, this is what my world is telling me I'm supposed to be.

And I'm going to fulfill that.

But the ones that actually get outside it, again, for me, you know, I've been a father since I was a kid.

I've lived paycheck to paycheck my entire adult life, even as a cop, you know, making $105,000, $110,000 on paper.

But I've got all these union dues, insurance, three grand a month in child support, and I'm making like $1,600 a month and struggling.

And then it wasn't until I resigned from the police department in 2020, have the business and just really got out of my own way to realize like, wait a minute, I actually can do more with my life, can help more people.

And then in return, I can make a greater return on my, on my time and make more money, which allows me to do more things for more people, including my kids, my family.

And it's just, but a lot of people never escape it, especially first responders.

I call it a, they become prisoners to the pension and they're so miserable.

They're so unhappy, but they're like, wow, Joe, I just just got to make it to the end i'm like when's the end like 17 18 years i'm like and you're unhappy and they're like yeah and i'm like that sucks man like way too long that sucks those are your prime years too big time because that was me you know i i i didn't get a pension i had 15 years in it all my peers many of them were like joe you're you're an idiot you're gonna waste five years you're you're gonna you're gonna waste 15 years of your life because you want to leave five years before your pension and i'm like yeah but i'm not happy anymore like this doesn't fill me anymore i don't want to do this anymore and they're like yeah but none of us are like you just stick it out and i'm like that's terrible you know like that's terrible.

And they're so negative, you know, and some of the ones I still talk to that are still there.

And they know, like, this is not filling me, but this is a 5% year of my pension.

So I just got to ride it out because I get 5 more%.

And next year is 5 more percent.

And then 3 more percent.

And they just stay really unhappy.

And I'm like, you're just waiting death.

That's all you're doing, man.

Like,

what quality of life is that?

And I just, again, now that I've been on the other side of this, it's like, I want to scream it from the root, which is why I truly appreciate this is like people that are in, you know, first responder roles or the military or people that are in these careers where it's like 20 to 30 year expectations, that's not the norm anymore, right?

Learn a skill, develop something that you're passionate about.

And then if it's, if it's still working for you, great.

But if it's not, then like, what else could you do where you actually feel excited to go to bed and wake up the next day to do it again?

And a lot of police officers I meet all over the country, not so much.

You know, there are some for sure, but a lot of them are just so unhappy and miserable and yet won't change it.

You know, they just won't do anything about it.

And they just want to like stay in that victim mindset, which is really unfortunate.

Cause again, it leads to how can I feel that, feel this pain, which is usually alcohol, pornography, extramarital affairs, or things that ooze out on duty, which is, you know, pursuits they're not supposed to be in, going a little too hard on a use of force,

instigating a use of force when it wasn't really required.

You know, a statement that will be a little controversial probably is, you know, and this is my opinion.

I've worked all over North America, is

about 50% of the time in our country, I really believe that when a police officer uses force, it's their fault, meaning it's our fault, the police officer.

And I don't, I hope this, I hope people will listen to this part too, is I'm not blaming them completely, but if you're not trained, if you're not educated, if you don't know what you're dealing with, we do not like to feel insecure or uninformed about something.

There are so many cops that do not have any training on mental health.

And yet we become the de facto responders for all things.

And so if someone in the community sees a person out in the street eating a curb, half naked or fully naked, floridly psychotic, and they call the police and the police have no training to deal with this.

And they're like, hey, stop doing that.

The guy's like, I'm seeing things that aren't here, like fully psychotic.

And they're like, hey, stop doing that.

Come here, get out of the street.

And they're like panicked.

Then they go to try to snatch them up.

Person pulls away.

Now they're full on in a fight.

People are recording it.

Like,

why are you fighting this poor homeless person that's in crisis?

And the cop's like, I don't know what else to do.

That's not their fault, right?

That's the agency's fault.

That's the city or the community's fault for not funding proper training.

If you have an expectation to call us for everything, there should also be an expectation that you're going to prepare them to train, which is again, why we offer that service in our company through training them on how to identify what's happening in a mental health crisis, how to connect with them so you don't have to utilize force.

Because in those 11 years you mentioned, Sean, with SAPD, which again, a lot of people don't know, San Antonio is the seventh largest city in the country.

Wow.

Our police department is the 13th largest in the country.

I did 11 years on the department, over 8,400 human contacts, the sickest of the sick, not one one use of force.

Dang.

Not one.

And how do I get compliance every time?

Now, luck played a role because I went into homes where people were shooting through the floor down to me.

I got lucky sometimes, but not 8,400 plus times.

And to understand that, you know, there's a form of manipulation, but for mutually beneficial outcomes, not just what's good for me selfishly, but also what's good for you, even if you don't know what's good for you because you're sick.

And how do you teach these skills?

If we don't teach these officers how to do this, then they're only going to go back to what they know, which is their academy taught them how to ask, tell, make, escalate, force, verbal presence, verbal, you know, your physical presence, verbal command, give orders.

They don't comply, then snatch them up.

And that's a rapid escalation, which just doesn't fly anymore.

And we know departments aren't supporting their officers as much when something bad happens because everything's on camera now, and then there's a lot of societal pressure put on them of that officer's in the wrong.

What are you going to do about it?

And now with lawsuits and everything else, it's just, it's really unfortunate.

I just think we need to do a better job of preparing and training the the officers, but not just for the skill of de-escalation, but for the mindset of how do I mitigate this trauma?

How can I go home safely and effectively so that I can be emotionally available to my family and not just go home, sink into the chair, crack a beer, not sleep well, be pissed off, go back to work again and do it for 25 years.

Absolutely.

So do they teach any of this to officers right now, any of this preventative stuff?

Some.

Not every officer, no.

And there's 18,000 police departments in this country.

The numbers fluctuate, but let's just call it about roughly 700,000 sworn officers.

The research, and it's now a couple years old, but the last research I saw was that about 50% of the police officers still don't have mental health training.

Whoa.

In 2024.

It's a lot.

Yeah, it's great for the business, right?

My total addressable market's there.

But yeah, no,

they do not have it, whether it's in the academy or it's afterwards.

And the training is crisis intervention team training.

It's a 40-hour training.

But even that is just an introductory, right?

Like there needs to be more.

There needs to be refreshers.

There needs to be a lot of role-play scenarios with like some stress inoculation and things like that.

But just to give someone like a mental health PowerPoint and just talk about what mental health is is not effective.

Crazy.

Right.

You got to run them through the paces because, again, these are the officers taking these calls and they don't know how to deal with it.

So it's really unfortunate.

And now with this mental health epidemic, you probably caught the beginning of it because you resigned in 2020, but their phones must be off the hooks, right?

With cases like this.

Big time.

Yeah.

In fact, in San Antonio,

when I left, our mental health unit, I I believe, was at 10 officers and three clinicians.

And I was just talking to one of my buddies that's still there, and uh, he said they're up to like 42 officers now, holy crap, just in four years.

So, and that's just in our city, right?

So, they're expanding wherever they can.

We do a lot of work helping other agencies get their set up as well, starting out from scratch.

Uh, whether it's a co-responder program where now, you know, clinicians are starting to ride out with police officers and doing a co-response.

Um, so there's a lot of different um ways to kind of get to the same thing, but yes, it mental mental health has just become so

prevalent since COVID.

And same with suicide.

Like last year was the highest recorded rate of suicides in our country since they've recorded them.

Wow.

And you don't hear that on the news.

Not at all.

And the thing that's bizarre to me, too, Sean, is that, you know, there's also a rapid increase in resources.

And so as resources are continuing to rise, so are the numbers of suicides.

And that's the thing.

It's like if we can solve, like, why is it that now, I mean, more people are talking about it.

Professional athletes are coming out talking about mental health.

There's more support than ever before.

There's a lot of resources that more than we've ever had in the history of our country.

And yet suicide continues to rise.

So then it makes you wonder, like, well, what is going on then?

Like, what are we missing?

And again, I think it's just a culture.

I think it's a, you know, social media has done something where people think they're more connected than ever before because they've got X amount of followers.

But truly, there's a lot of isolation and depression.

You know, anxiety and depression are the two most common mental health diagnoses worldwide.

Absolutely.

There's so much suffering in silence, especially too.

And we have people that portray this life of everything's just great, everything's awesome.

But then again, when anytime they're alone, it's just a miserable place to be.

And it's really unfortunate because I feel like we don't trust each other with our truth.

And if I come to you as a friend or a brother and tell you, like, hey, I'm feeling this way, and you don't handle it appropriately, even if you're doing your best, right?

If I come to you and say, hey, I'm struggling in my marriage or my marriage isn't going well, I'm just having a hard time.

And you're like, man, can I be honest, dude?

I never liked your wife anyway.

Let's just go get hammered shit this weekend and like just forget about it.

That's not great advice in that way.

But again, it's not that that friend's bad, it's just they don't know any better.

And I think that happens a lot to people where they're like, you know what?

I just don't think I should tell anyone anything.

And then there's such a stigma around therapy and treatment.

And so it's like people just trying to find their own way on their own.

And there's a lot of people lost, sadly.

And you can just see it.

You can see it just with

from school shootings to the mental health epidemic to to how how divided we are with just you know people getting so drawn into the the political climate of everything happening right now like this this time of year every four years is like oh jesus here we go it's a disease yeah i'm sure crime's going up next couple months yeah it's it's a problem man so i personally think the suicide numbers aren't even accurate

my grandfather and father both committed suicide but their deaths were not reported as suicides interesting and you start looking into things and it seems like they're not accurate wow And from a place of love, Sean.

First, thank you for sharing that with me.

I'm sorry that that happened and talk about trauma.

That's got to be difficult.

Two, just because I know you're someone that loves to learn, is we no longer say committed or completed suicide.

It's just die by suicide.

Oh, really?

Yes, because people commit crimes and complete marathons.

So one is negative, one is positive.

And in order for us to really destigmatize suicide, we have to create neutral language.

And so we're not going to celebrate it and glorify it.

We're not going to punish it and shame it, but we're just going to say it is what it is.

And when we can collectively get on that same page of just accepting neutrality, maybe people will be willing to come forward more.

And so it's just, they changed this in 2019.

And so anytime I get an opportunity to share that, especially if I hear it, because we talk about it in our training, but when I hear someone say it, if I can trust that they're not going to be offended by it.

No, thanks for sharing that.

Absolutely.

I had no idea.

But that's why I'm so passionate about, you know, opening up because I don't want that legacy to continue.

And my dad had a couple other kids and, you know, they were suicidal too.

The ripple effect is huge.

Yeah, it's important.

It becomes a learned behavior.

It really does.

It's like any other behavior.

If you see it or experience it, it brings it more into your awareness.

And when we focus, like we see, the brain is only ever going to see what it focuses on.

And if I grew up knowing my dad and my granddad killed themselves and that's all I'm thinking or seeing, not all I'm thinking, but it's just always playing.

it becomes far more likely that that's going to happen because it's in your awareness.

Right.

And so again, kudos to you, man, for the work you've done and just the the growth you've had to find yourself and your truth and step into that.

It's awesome.

No, you too, man.

I really hope your message can reach the masses because it's so important.

They need someone like you that's relatable.

Like, you've been through all of it.

Right.

There's mental health coaches that haven't gone

what you've done.

So.

Which it's the same with a lot of therapists and psychiatrists, psychologists, and that's a lot of the issues.

It's funny.

I was just in

Burbank two days ago.

I did a keynote at the California Association of Hostage Negotiators.

And I know my message, right?

And people can confuse it with like, oh, this guy's just going to tell us to hug longer and each other.

And I do.

But because of my experience and credibility, it was like, I'm not sure how this is going to land with this group of people wearing cargo pants and a lot of hair gel and lokes and, you know, Velcro.

And I was like, let's just see.

The feedback was phenomenal.

And even from a room full of like 450 or 500 operators in this room that do a lot of high-speed work, SWAT operators, negotiators, for them to come up to me, some of them fighting tears, just saying, thank you.

I needed this.

Wow.

Thank you for being here and doing this.

And I was like, Hey, I wasn't sure I was going to land.

They're like, No, this is perfect.

Like, because we're, we're going to talk about all these cases and these jumpers and these barricaded subjects and all this stuff, but we don't have nearly enough people talking about what you're talking about.

And we need this.

And it like gave them an invitation.

I spoke with a guy three hours the night after my talk who was struggling.

Damn.

And he's a cop.

And this, this guy,

phenomenal story.

He was a quarterback at UCLA, drafted by the Raiders,

married, three kids, has another baby.

baby has a seizure, goes into a stroke and dies at six months old.

Whoa.

His wife is like, I don't want to do this anymore and divorces him.

And it's been four years, but to see the pain in his eyes as he's telling me the story, right?

This guy doesn't know me, but he saw me tell my story, right?

He saw me share my story

on that stage in the morning.

And that night he felt compelled or invited to say, hey, man, I want to open up to you now.

And that's where I tell people, like, our stories are what unite us, right?

If we're willing to share them from a place of truth and not like a version that feels more convenient, but, but a true place of like, this was hard, right?

And I don't know, like, I tell people still, I haven't figured it out, right?

I'm, I'm way better than I used to be, but it's a journey and it's going to take me a while because I still, like, I live on the road a lot.

I'm in hotels all over the place and it does get lonely, you know, and I find myself falling back into those old thought patterns when I'm isolated for too long.

And it's like, okay, you know, that's what this compass represents for me.

It's just a reminder of every day, what is true north for you.

You've got to do your gratitude.

You've got to plant yourself.

Ask yourself, like, where am I?

Why am I here?

Who contributed to me being here?

So, by the way, you made my gratitude this morning, Sean.

I love it.

But it just, it focused me to be present in this day, not what's tomorrow, not what's yesterday, but just what's happening now.

And can I focus on that?

That's where the beauty is.

But I love that officer story that he shared with me because we were total strangers and became fast friends just from connecting.

And it's not about trauma bonds.

You know, people say, well, that's trauma bonds.

No, but it was this guy was coming to me looking for hope, saying, hey, I'm doing things like EMDR, but is that enough?

No, if you're just doing one session of EMDR a month or every few months, that's not going to help you.

And especially when it's been four years and you're still drastically punishing yourself, not sleeping, you tell me your brain won't turn off, that you're not sleeping at all.

Man, that's, that's a tough place to be.

And he's within two years of retiring.

And I told him, like, man, set that as your goal.

Get as healthy as you can, because when you retire, it's only going to get worse.

Oh, yeah.

Because this job is a distraction.

And he knows it.

And it's like when you retire and suddenly you're like, okay, now what?

It's going to get dark, man.

And so I want you to work for these next two years as hard as you can on yourself to prepare yourself for that transition.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of retirement.

Like they teach you to retire at 65.

I don't believe in that.

Right.

100%.

Yeah.

100%.

Even for me, like I have goals, but it's like, I want to work until I can't, especially if I'm passionate about what I'm doing, right?

If I can just share a message or a learned experience or write a book or do a podcast or do a keynote at someone's conference and that like helps them.

And I'm 79 years old and able-bodied, beautiful, right?

But this idea that I call it the American order of operations, right?

Which is go to school, get good grades, go to college, get your degree, start your career, get a spouse, get a house, have kids, pay your taxes, retire, die.

There's a lot of people who do that and they're miserable.

Right.

And so what about if, yeah, this isn't for me?

This is why like entrepreneurship is such like a fancy thing that like there's a lot of people doing it, as you know, you, you've met a ton of them.

But then everyone that's not in it is like, that's them.

I would never be able to do that.

I just, I want to be a cog in this wheel and it's safe and it's convenient and it's easy.

But are you happy?

Like, do you have real joy in your life knowing that you're just doing this thing?

You're a widget in a machine that at the end of the day, maybe doesn't care about you a whole lot and you're super replaceable, which is why what I tell cops or first responders is there's only one of three things that happens in this.

Like you're going to retire, you're going to resign, or you're going to die.

And the system doesn't care.

The machine does not care.

You will be replaced immediately.

The next 911 call will come immediately and you will be forgotten fast.

And if you died, you'll get a plaque and a memorial.

If you resign, no one cares.

And if you retire, no one cares.

Like, thanks for your service, but you're gone.

Like, you're just gone.

And the system doesn't care.

And so, like, yeah, love your job, be proud of it, but just accept it cannot love you back.

And I think a lot of cops, especially, it's just the mindset of like, it becomes their identity.

This is who I am.

No, it's not.

It's not, right?

It's just a job.

It's just a job.

It's a means to an end.

You exchange time for money.

Now, you can be passionate about it.

You can love it and feel like it's your calling, sure, but also understand you're exchanging time for money and it's a job and that's it.

And if you over glorify it, I think, again, it gets dangerous because if you're doing your job and maybe you get benched or your gun gets taken away, suddenly now my identity is gone.

And I've stood in front of retirees, whether they're living by themselves or with their mom, and they'll look at me with tears in their eyes with a peg tube, addicted to opiates or alcohol, crying, saying, Joe, what the fuck happened, man?

Like, I gave 35 years of my life to the city and now look at me.

All I want to do is die.

And I'm like, yeah, because you thought that's who you were.

And now that it's gone, who's called you?

Who's checked on you?

Nobody.

And my second question is, what do you do for fun, man?

Like, what are your hobbies?

And they're like, nothing.

I drink.

I'm like, yeah, I bet that sucks.

You thought this family you had of however many, whether it was 10 or in our case, 2,400 cops, you thought it was your family.

You leave and they're like, I'm going back to work and I've already forgot about you and you have no hobbies.

That is a very, very dangerous place to be in because now your identity is being threatened.

You don't know who you are because you gave it up for the job and now you have no hobbies or nothing to look forward to.

Yeah, that's going to be a really, really miserable place to be, which is why, again, I talked to you about golf before the show.

It's like, that is a huge outlet for me, right?

And I know when it's happening.

I've got tea time scheduled.

I know when I'm going to go home.

I'm sad because I'm here in Vegas and the wind told me they're closed for maintenance.

I called Shadow Creek.

I even stayed at an MGM because that's the only way you can play Shadow Creek.

And they're like, we're also closed for maintenance.

I'm like, dang, you guys are killing me here, right?

Because it's that important to me of, I'll build in an extra day on a trip just to play golf.

Wow.

I have to, right?

It's, it's, otherwise, I'm just working and working and working and working.

And to what end?

And I make sure that I schedule my fun.

Otherwise, I'm going to get lost real quick and just focus on the wrong things.

And it becomes too much.

I love that, man.

Yeah, I think this is so important for people watching this to understand the perspective of police officers.

Because a lot of people see these viral videos and they're freaking out, but they don't ask why they're freaking out.

100%.

So it's easy.

It's like clickbait almost, right?

100%.

It's easy to look at something in a, you know, in a 2D screen or just look at something, not be there, not be in the environment, not know.

And

I use this analogy when I'm training, but I say, you know, think back to 9-11.

Plane hits the tower.

The plane hits the tower in New York, and there's jet fuel all through the elevator shafts.

Fire department can't go up.

People can't go down.

The entire floor is on fire.

What do you remember seeing people doing?

And everyone just says, jumping.

I'm like, okay, so let's play a terrible game of what if.

Like, what would you do?

So, let's say that's happening.

Plane hits the tower.

We're perched up a couple hundred feet in the air.

You cannot go down an elevator.

Your only two options are stand in this room and burn to death or jump to your death.

Which one are you choosing?

And without fail, someone always says something like, jump.

I'm like, well, hold on.

Do you know you would do that?

Absolutely.

No, you don't.

You have no idea, right?

You have no idea what you would do until you're in that situation.

And this has always been my problem.

And I'm a huge fan of training.

Obviously, I own a training company, but this has been my problem with training since the Marine Corps is like

your brain knows this is a safe environment right i'm not going to die doing this even with stress inoculation even if they make me run in oakhorse spray me with pepper spray put me through a gas chamber i can't breathe or see somewhere in my brain i know i'm safe but you get into a real life situation you have no idea now you think you're going to resort back to your highest level of training but again until like mike tyson says everyone has a plan until you get punched in the face right same thing like you can plan all you want but until you face that until you do a traffic stop on the side of a highway when it's dark and have no clue what happened, but in your in-service training two months ago, they showed you a video of another officer in another state walking up on a vehicle, someone rolling down the back window and just shooting and killing the cop.

And you just saw that and it's in your awareness.

And you've seen videos like this hundreds of times because just as the public sees everything the officers do wrong, the cops are seeing everything the public does to us.

And so that's the challenge perspective of we don't watch other videos of cops doing dumb things nearly as much as we watch the citizens of our communities ambushing us, killing us, hurting us.

And so that's the thing we're always looking out for.

Interesting.

This is probably going to go bad.

I'm always prepared for it to go poorly.

So I have to be on guard, which again, we're pouring cortisol through our minds, stressed out.

And I'm anticipating the bad thing to happen.

And so I almost will subconsciously create the bad thing at times, especially if it's not going the way I want as fast as I want.

And so now I might get amped up because I've already come in with this preconceived notion that this could likely kill me, right?

They tell you in the academy, what percentage of police calls have a gun involved?

And we're like, 10%, 17%, 40%.

They're like, no, 100, because you have a gun.

And then they show you a video of an officer getting into a fight, the citizen taking the gun out of the officer's holster and killing him with it.

Wow.

And they're like, so your gun is at every call and there's a chance you could get it taken from you and die and killed by it.

And we're like, oh my goodness.

And I tell people, you know, a lot of the training academy in the States with policing, it's like you go through your training and right before you graduate, there's this like 55-gallon drum that's just this like vat of paranoia.

And they draw up these syringes almost like the COVID shot and just like stab you with it.

Just like, here, you're paranoid and you're paranoid and you're paranoid.

And now we're just terrified.

But at the same time, out of their mouth, they're like, now go serve and protect your community.

Well, which is it?

Because I'm scared of shit.

But you also want me to do this perfectly well.

You can't do both.

And this was me.

You know, I was a, you know, my brand new cop first year.

I was just, every call was like, okay, here we go.

Here we go.

Here we go.

And I'm like, wait a minute, people are just running from us.

People are just running from us.

Like, it's, where's the danger at?

Except for like, you know, it's scary.

It is.

But it's like, you know, oftentimes we're bringing the fight to people, warrants, whatever it is.

But yeah, it's an interesting perspective shift that, you know, the citizens are focused on what we do wrong.

We're focused on what they do wrong.

And so that's where the problem and the rub is, sadly, is we just, we have a hard time experiencing things from other people's perspective, especially if it doesn't serve our own belief, opinion, values.

Yeah, because there's people watching this that had no idea there was a fear-based training.

And when you're living in that state of mind, you're easily controllable too.

Easily controlled, easily influenced.

Again, look at, like when I say the brain sees what it looks for, if you go in, and here's the other issue is.

When I'm training cops and they'll say, no, I've had this, like they have one story, right?

Every cop's got their story or two or three, right?

But I had this one time when, and I'm like, when was that?

And they're like, it was like seven years ago.

How many calls have you had since then and before then?

Thousands.

But we'll take one experience and say, now every time this is going to happen again.

And it's so hard for them to just put it like into this algorithm of just comparison of, okay, so for me, if I had 14,000 calls in my

15 years of policing and two of them went really bad.

That's pretty good odds.

Right.

But we're, and here's the issue too, is we really sensationalize the, what we call the sexy part of policing, foot pursuits, car chases, breaching doors.

That stuff happens so infrequent now.

And the problem is when you train that so much in the academy and then you graduate them and they get out there and suddenly, I just, I heard this this week in Burbank where

one of the officers was like, I just get bored.

I'm just bored.

Yeah.

Well, what are you going to do when you're bored?

And not only when you're bored, but you're, let's say, 21, 22 years old.

You don't even have a fully developed brain.

Your prefrontal cortex isn't even fully developed yet.

And now you have all this power and authority and you're bored.

This is not a good recipe, which is why I advocate for, on a national level, I do not think you should be a cop in this country until you're 25.

Minimum.

That should be a minimum.

And if you don't have a four-year degree, because college isn't for everyone, cool, you should have to have at least two years working in health and human services so you can learn to develop compassion for people before you're given power over them.

I think if we did those couple things and then drastically raised the wages, because believe it or not, like it or not, you get what you pay for.

You're paying a cop $40,000 out there with perfect expectations of that of a pilot saying, hey, you can't crash.

Okay, cool.

Well, hey, you can't do anything wrong on these calls because you're going to get in trouble or get a lawsuit.

Well, great.

But you put me through an 11-week police academy, 12-week police academy.

You gave me a gun.

I'm 20.

In Iowa, you can be 18.

And an armed police officer, 18 years old.

Wow.

I'm like, you just went to prom two weeks ago.

And now suddenly you're showing up to domestics with this 44-year-old couple talking about marital issues.

What do you know about it, right?

So there's a lot of issues that people don't realize.

And again, I can empathize on the law enforcement side just as I can empathize on the citizen side because there should be some frustration, you know, of people being frustrated with policing the way it is because, you know, it could be and it should be done much better and different than it is.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'd rather fund police officers in these wars, man.

Another 8 billion yesterday they announced.

Crazy.

And for what?

Where's it going?

For what?

How's it serving us?

It's so frustrating.

And imagine what that could do for our own country to keep our own towns and communities safe.

And again, it's just you get what you pay for.

And we have a lot of money being pushed into other things and agendas that just

sadly, we don't feel it in our communities.

And there's a lot police departments are so short-staffed.

We work with the Federal Bureau of Prisons.

We have a federal contract for providing de-escalation and wellness training for them.

Their life expectancy in the Federal Bureau of Prisons after retirement is three years.

Holy crap.

Three years.

Because they work two and three decades in these prisons, essentially incarcerated.

You know, so much trauma, seeing horrific things,

no hope.

You know, it's not like there's, yeah, there's some like

restoration that's happening for some people, but they don't experience it.

Yeah.

Right.

Like, okay, we did programs.

Awesome.

They eventually get out, but they have no idea.

So all they're seeing is just, I call it saturated and human suffering.

And that's all they know.

And then, you know, they're stressed out all the time.

You've got one or two of these correctional officers standing in a general pod of 45 inmates, terrified.

And you do this over time, just cortisol, cortisol, cortisol, and then they retire and die.

And again, they're so short staffed because they're paying them not anywhere near enough.

It's hard to get people into this profession now on the policing side, on the correction side, you know, firing EMS, it might be a little bit easier because that's the sexy part of first responders is they're the heroes and it's medicine and it's great

and they have their issues too.

But, you know, people don't realize the number one killer of policing in our country is not the bad guy out there.

It's unprocessed trauma and suicide.

Suicide is the number one killer of policing.

And anyone that's thinking, well, yeah, but that's because we have advanced medicine and tourniquets and all this, yes.

And the number one killer is suicide.

And we had this below 100 campaign years ago, which is great.

It's let's get our traffic fatalities below 100.

Wear your vest, wear your seatbelt.

A lot of cops get into pursuits.

They're not wearing their seatbelts or their vest.

Even wearing a vest in a vehicle crash can save your life, but they're not wearing their vest or a seatbelt.

They get ejected, they die.

So they're like, hey, let's get our vehicle crashes below 100.

Awesome.

And we did.

It was great.

But why is there not a below one campaign for suicide?

Why are we not having a below one campaign for like, hey, let's not die.

Let's not kill ourselves, right?

If that is the number one thing, why are we not spending more emphasis on that?

Why are we not training on that in the academy before, or other than just like a one-hour talk on like, hey, you know, mental health is a thing, you know, just make sure you're sleeping good.

And like, we've got EAP.

so just like talk to someone if you need help.

That's the extent.

I feel so equipped, right?

It's terrible, man.

So if it's not like front and center annually in front of them and not just pushing resources or pointing to a 1-800 number, that's not it.

It should be mandatory.

In my opinion, people ask me the question, Joe, if you were in charge of policing.

in this country, what would you do?

And I've talked about a couple, raise the age, raise the wage, you know, better requirements, raise the standards.

But we would also have mandatory therapy, mandatory.

From the chief to the sheriff, all the way down to the brand new officer in the academy, it's mandatory.

You don't get a choice because we don't get a choice of the calls we're responding to.

So you shouldn't get a choice in whether or not you're going to deal with the traumatic events you're dealing with either.

Wow.

Every cop has to shoot their handgun every year, every year for qualification.

It's for proficiency and liability.

So every cop, the amount of money that's spent in police agencies or city budgets for ammo is unbelievable.

Cool.

I think it's important.

But if there's a requirement for proficiency and liability to train us in firearms every year, why is there not a requirement for proficiency and liability to train our minds to not suffer, to not turn to alcohol or pornography or the things we know that are plaguing us that we're dying by?

Why is there not a requirement to deal with it?

I have an issue with that.

And again,

that's why I just, I really appreciate me letting you use your platform, Sean, to talk about this stuff because I'm aware of your reach.

And I don't know how many cops listen to you, but you know, it's people know cops.

And if even if they're not a police officer, someone's going to share it with one of their people that is a police officer.

And I think that's what's powerful: you know, when I do my keynote sessions or whatever I'm doing, people always come up and say, Man, I never thought about that.

Like, that's important.

That was a great reframe.

Or, you know, I'm struggling, but I didn't know I could just go help myself.

Yeah.

I've been waiting for it.

And I tell them, and this isn't a slight, but it's just the truth: your police chief, your sheriff is not coming to save you.

Your city mayor or governor or state governor or or senator is not coming to save you.

The president is not coming to save you.

You have to be selfish.

We have to be selfish and say, I am the most important thing first, because if we don't learn to love ourselves and prioritize ourselves, you're going to be a shell of the person you could be.

You're not going to be the best person for your family.

You're not going to be the best person for your children.

You're not going to be the best person for your department.

You're not going to be the best person for your community.

if you are not your best self.

And sadly, the narrative that's been sold to us is community first.

It's all about them, right?

It's almost a Christian principle of others first, others first, serve others, do for others, do for others.

I get it.

I love it.

Others are important, but at what cost and to what end?

And if we're not prioritizing ourselves, and it's semantics, but for me, it is important to say before others is me.

I've got to, if I don't, if I don't stay engaged in therapy, if I don't do my daily gratitude practice, if I don't do the things I know I have to do, if I don't play golf for a long period of time, I know exactly what happens.

And I'm going to start to take that out on my wife.

I'm going to start taking it out on my children.

I'm going to start taking it out on my

employees and the people that work with me and around me, our clients.

It's going to seep out.

And so I have to make sure I'm taking care of myself.

But there's a big difference between being selfish for selfish reasons and being selfish for selfless reasons.

And I think we need to be selfish for selfless reasons so that we can better serve and show up for humanity after we've learned to prioritize ourselves, figure ourselves out, discover who we are.

And then we can, again, just be a better version of ourselves to help more people.

Absolutely.

Joe, it's been an honor.

I can't wait to see you reform this industry.

I think it's important.

Where can people find you, find the book, keep up with you?

Love it, man.

Books on Amazon, unarmed websites, joe somorrow.com, and then SolutionPointPlus.com is the business website.

Would love to connect and engage with anyone.

And again, Sean, thank you so much for your time, brother.

I appreciate it, man.

And everyone, take care of you well.

Absolutely.

Check out the links below, guys.

See you next time.