STOP Doing Sales Wrong! This New Method Will Shock You | Luke Lunkenheimer DSH #542

bottom line is, man, when you're the disruptor, it's not an easy place to be in, but sales is done backwards.

We train an individual to meet a human being and have an authentic conversation with that human being and engage in something that we call the big three.

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And here's the episode.

All right, guys, we are talking sales today.

We got Luke Lunkenheimer today.

Thanks for coming on, man.

Hey, man, I'm glad to be here, brother.

Thanks for having me.

Sir, three car dealerships, huh?

Yeah, three little ones.

Not three major franchises, but yeah, three independent stores, pretty busy places.

Yeah, and you believe the sales process is done backwards right now, right?

I do.

I do.

I don't just believe it.

You know, we've, the proof is in the pudding, brother.

So it's a large claim to make, right?

Because you've got a world full of salespeople and you've got a world full of sales trainers.

And when you're the guy coming on the scene, being the disruptor, saying everybody's doing it the wrong way, it's not exactly a welcome path to walk.

But it's a logical reality, man.

I mean, have you bought a, you bought a new vehicle in your life?

Yeah.

What's the sales process like?

I went in, I just bought a G-Wagon.

I went in, test drove it, and then they started asking me a bunch of stuff.

And then I had to qualify financially.

And then I bought it.

But I'm an easy buyer.

I feel I was there to buy the car.

I wasn't a typical just exploring type of vibe.

Understood, but you said it right there.

You went in.

They said a quick hello.

They showed you a product.

Yeah.

Let you test drive drive the product.

I'm sure the salesperson probably gave you a quick walk around with features and benefits, tried to make a few things seem pretty sweet on the vehicle, yeah, yeah, okay, and then he asked you to buy it, yeah, yeah.

So what happens when you said, well, I want to think about it,

they went to the back and started coming up with an offer, yep, or I want to talk to my wife, right?

I want to figure out my finances.

Not 100% sure.

I want to shop the guy down the street.

I want to compare three prices.

That's the problem, bro.

That comes at the end, right?

Salespeople are trained just like that guy was trained.

Meet somebody, build rapport, build a kinship, or at least, you know, get to like, get them to like you, show them a product, and then it's sell, sell, sell the product, the features, the benefits, you know, make sure you align those features and benefits to the human being in their life and so on and so forth.

And it's, it's not ineffective, right?

If it didn't work at all, it wouldn't be the industry standard, right?

Yeah.

But there's a better way.

Like in 2006, Steve Jobs told everybody that the phone was done wrong, right?

And he got a lot of laughs for that.

But we, you know, I think you have an iPhone, so do I.

I think we, you know, know, 80% of America does.

So the bottom line is, man, when you're the disruptor, it's not an easy place to be in, but sales is done backwards.

So the way we train people is we train an individual to meet a human being and have an authentic conversation with that human being and engage in something that we call the big three.

Excuse me, which is just ultimately, if that guy had said to you, you know, hey, Sean, how you doing, man?

What brought you here today?

What would you have said?

Would have said, I'm looking to buy a car.

Okay.

Now, Sean, most people come to car dealerships looking to buy a car.

Let me just kind of narrow it down a little bit.

So today you chose to put on the blinker and you turned into a Mercedes-Benz of Las Vegas or wherever, right?

And today was the day above all others that you chose to come in here and look at a car.

What made today the day, Sean?

Looking for a new vehicle.

My vehicle is outdated, looking to upgrade.

I've come into some money and I'm looking to take the next step in my journey.

Okay, well, first of all, congratulations on coming into some money.

That's not something I hear every day.

So congratulations.

I hope the circumstances surrounding that weren't negative, you know, a death or anything like that.

But ultimately, what I'm looking to discover, Sean, because I want to optimize optimize for your time, you know, I want to be the guy that takes genuine concern for your time.

When it comes to purchasing the vehicle, do you plan on leveraging the power of a bank and paying over time?

Or is it something that you'd like to square up all in one shot?

Probably all in one shot if there's a discount.

Okay, so what I hear you saying, if I could reiterate, you know, if I understand you correctly, you're looking for a deal.

You'd like to maybe save some money off the asking price.

And in exchange for doing that, you're willing to pay in full today.

Correct.

Okay.

So I said today, you didn't say today.

Is that an assumption or is that accurate?

I mean, would you potentially do business with us if we could make it make sense today?

Absolutely.

Okay.

And then, you know, Sean, oftentimes we'll hear people say that and then later on in the equation, there's a wife involved or a second party, excuse me, third party, you know, some other piece of the puzzle that we don't solve for at the outset.

Is it really that simple today, Sean, that if we make you the right deal and you like the car, that we could earn your business today?

Or can you think of any other caveats that might give us, you know, a little bit of an issue down the road?

Nope.

My wife is here with me.

We're ready to purchase this thing.

Awesome, brother.

Well, let's make sure, first of all, that we have something in stock that makes sense for you.

Now, when you came here today, was it because you saw a piece of inventory on our website or in the marketplace that intrigued you?

Yes, I saw it online.

Okay, and which vehicle was that?

The G-Wagon.

The G-Wagon.

Awesome.

So, Sean, the way I'm understanding this is we've got a G-Wagon here that suits your fancy.

And if we can make the money work, we got a deal today.

Absolutely.

Awesome, man.

So I just sold you a car, Sean, and I did it in the first three minutes of conversation.

Now, to the veteran salespeople that are watching this conversation, it's not always that simple.

You know, you said it yourself.

You're a unique scenario.

You had the money.

You went in to buy so on and so forth.

But for the guy that says, I do need to talk to my wife, we start solving for that at the outset.

And we actually navigate the sale in a fashion that optimizes for us building urgency.

So much, in fact, that the customer ends up believing that they will truly miss out substantially if they don't make a decision now.

That's when you get the guy to call his wife.

That's when you get him to get the wife from work and come over for a quick lunch to take a look at the vehicle.

That's when you throw a dealer plate on the car and you take the vehicle over to show the wife while she's at work.

Asking the customer to do that after you've already gone on the test drive, you've already served numbers, you've already essentially given the whole barn away.

And then the guy's like, no, I want to think about it.

He's pulling that card.

I want to go talk to my wife.

He wants an out, right?

Right.

At that point, you're grasping at straws, man.

You're playing the beggar game.

You know, well, let's go talk to her.

You know, doesn't your wife want you to be better?

Doesn't she want to be more confident?

Well, of course she does.

Well, then let's get you behind the wheel of this vehicle.

And you just look like the traditional salesperson.

So we solve for it at the outset.

It's that simple.

That's interesting.

So is the goal to close them as quick as possible?

Because the longer they take, the the higher chance they have of backing out?

So I wouldn't say that's exactly it, although that plays into it.

The goal is to solve for potential objections at the outset of the conversation.

So if I know at the absolute beginning of the conversation that you don't have the money, for instance, we teach something called the big three, right?

Because everybody, I'm sure, is wondering, well, what's, you know,

what's the framework?

How do you actually do this?

So we train something that's built in the rule of three.

Everything that we train is in three sections.

That's the easiest thing for a human being to remember.

So we have what we call the big three, which is what brought you here today?

What is your buying power?

And what did you hope to accomplish?

Now, a veteran salesperson is going to hear that and say, Well, you know, I asked most people why they're here today, and you said, What?

Well, I'm here to look at a vehicle, right?

And that same veteran salesperson, what he's not realizing is that he's the one that goes, Oh, okay.

So, you came here to look at a vehicle that you're just driving by, got it.

And then he moves on, he fills that off in the traffic portion of his Foursquare.

What a paid-to-persuade-trained assassin does is they continue to do what we call compassionate interrogation.

And in that process, we teach that you have to solve for for time, money, and third party.

And that's exactly what I did in that qualification with you.

I made sure that now is the time.

I made sure that you had the money and I made sure there wasn't a third party involved.

So from that point, I was okay to move to number two, which is establish buying power, which I did.

You know, you said you had the money.

Excuse me.

I asked you if you had it ready to roll.

You do.

Then we moved to what did you hope to accomplish today?

And then I just kind of phrased it for you and asked you to affirm it for me, which is essentially, bro.

So like if all these things line up today, we're doing business.

And you said yes.

And then I looped back which is another thing that most salespeople don't do and no sales trainers quite frankly train which is once you get the yes don't just run with a yes you got to reaffirm that and go back say listen man i want to make sure you understand me sean because later on in this process i'm going to ask you to buy from me and i don't want that to come as a surprise so let me reiterate to you if we got the right deal if we got the right car you're buying today yes dude now the rest of it's easy you've already committed to buying as long as we get to a feasible number right so it's so much easier man than people think.

But unfortunately, you know, and I hate to say this because I don't want to throw shade, but people are monetizing ill-informed salespeople, right?

These programs with monthly subscriptions and multiple tiers and so on and so forth.

Dude, we train people with one sales training process.

It's one platform.

It's one purchase.

It's one time.

We continue to augment it as the time goes on and bring additional information, but you're only engaging with us in a monetary fashion one time.

And then you're certified, good to go.

Yeah.

What do you think a typical closing rate at a car dealership is?

So the national average is somewhere between 25 and 30 percent for an average individual.

They're closing about one out of every four.

Okay.

That's higher than I thought, actually.

Is it?

Just like a random person walking in, they close one out of four of those?

Yeah.

So

I want to pay respect to the fact that these are statistics that I probably looked up just shy of a year ago.

So there's always going to be the people out there that are going to nitpick, right?

But yeah, when somebody walks through the dealership, you're selling generally one in four with today's buyer.

These are informed internet buyers.

They've already done a majority of their research.

And there's actually a statistic out there that might surprise you, and it surprises most people to hear it.

But clients or customers that are walking into a brick and mortar business that are looking for a tangible asset, 85 to 90% of those people have already made a buying decision before they even enter the facility.

So it's ultimately your deal to lose.

Wow.

The reason people don't buy is because they don't have the inventory they're looking for.

They don't like the individual they spoke to or they have an unrealistic preconceived notion of what the numbers are.

Kelly Blue Book said my trade's worth 10, 5, but what they're not realizing is Kelly Blue Book also said the vehicle they're looking to purchase is worth 30, and it's on sale for 25 grand.

So they have to do the retail-to-retail comparison.

Got it.

So Kelly Blue Book isn't accurate.

Kelly Blue Book is relatively accurate as long as you use the appropriate comparison.

See, what a lot of customers do, excuse me, my Red Bull's barking back there.

What a lot of customers do is they optimize for what they like to see.

So when they go on the internet, let's say you're that Mercedes dealer.

You've got a G-Wagon.

It's got a sticker of $120,000.

You've got it knocked down to $105,000, which isn't prevalent in the marketplace today, but just for argument's sake.

So $105,000 means that you're $15,000 below MSRP.

That same customer is looking at their S63 AMG and seeing that it's worth $65,000 as a trade-in.

But they're not reading the fine print that says this is the trade-in that you can expect to receive off of the Kelly Blue Book retail value.

Kelly Blue Book retail value on a new car is MSRP, $115,000.

So what they're not doing is they're not saying, okay, this, or excuse me, $120,000.

They're not saying, okay, they're taking $15,000 off the retail price of the new one.

So comparatively, my trade-in needs to be worth $15,000 less.

So it's not that they're ill-informed or they have bad information at Kelly Blue Book or Edmonds or NADA.

It's that the customer optimizes for what they want to see.

They don't do the retail to retail or wholesale to wholesale math.

So I guess I would say to be more effective, I wish they would disclaim that a little louder.

Yeah, that makes sense.

So typical close rates, 25% at dealerships.

What about your three dealerships?

So you're double the average.

Yes.

That's really good.

It is.

Yeah.

Your results speak for itself then at that point.

Listen, man, my salespeople know that the deal is theirs to lose.

Okay.

And it's blatantly obvious to me if they're not following the system.

They come to the desk to work the deal.

And just, you know, to be completely forthcoming, I no longer run the desk at those dealerships.

I am full-time involved in Paid to Persuade trying to bring this knowledge to people all across the world.

And we're doing it and it's working.

Okay.

Our trainees right now are experiencing usually somewhere between 150 to 170 percent increase in commissions.

That's documented.

We've got testimonials.

Okay.

Okay.

So the bottom line is when one of my salespeople comes to the desk and they're not able to close a deal, there's one of two things going on.

And

it's binary, man.

It really, truly is one of two things.

Either A, they did not follow the system correctly or B, there is not a deal there.

Okay.

And that's why we say with Pay to Persuade training, when you are trained effectively in our discipline, you will close every closable deal.

Because when you follow the framework, man, there's no way that you can't.

You have all the information up front.

So if you navigate your sale effectively based on that information, you're golden.

When you get to the end, if the customer says, well, I'd like to talk to my wife, you didn't establish for third party in the first question.

You didn't follow the framework.

What do you think of Tesla getting rid of all their salesmen?

Tesla getting rid of all their salesperson?

Yeah.

You know, frankly, I'm not highly educated on that, and I don't like to speak opinion-wise on things that I don't know well.

But I would say this.

Elon Musk has proven, you know, he's got a pretty good track record.

So I would say that it's something certainly worth looking into.

I will tell you this.

We're moving a lot towards AI and people and businesses and executives are looking for AI to solve a lot of problems.

But there is a human element to a purchase of a tangible asset that is a high dollar item that I don't think is ever going to go away.

Personally, and I hope that this is documented and somebody remembers to check this years from now, but I think there's going to be kind of a reverse bell curve as it pertains to AI and selling.

I think companies are going to go real hard into AI.

You know, you've got DeBergerac, you've got Air, you've got all these things that are essentially looking for AI to replace the salesperson.

I think they're going to lean into that heavily.

They're going to discover that it's counterproductive

in most situations, not all.

There's going to be e-commerce, there's going to be online retail, there's going to be many situations where AI is going to be highly effective, also in low-ticket things and consumer goods that are just high volume at scale.

But when it comes to high-ticket items in a person-to-person selling environment, I think they're going to lean too hard into AI and then the consumer is going to push back and they're going to want to talk to somebody.

It's hard to picture AI crushing it in high ticket because that is a very emotional decision for most people.

Most people

when you're spending thousands of dollars or sometimes hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Yeah, that makes sense.

And you said authenticity resonates four times higher than just a script, right?

Yeah, so they've done studies around this.

This isn't verbiage that I'm pulling to sound cool, right?

So there's, and I would have to reference my learnings to remember the university, but there was a very prestigious university that did a study.

And, you know, they had a Faraday cage, which is, you know, the scientist Faraday created a cage that was devoid of all waves and frequencies, essentially.

So you could could measure the state of an object in the cage without it being impeded on by other outside forces.

So they put human beings in a Faraday cage and they measured them in heightened emotional states, anger, rage, loss, passion, whatever.

And what they learned is human beings have a measurable wave signature that emits from a human being when they're in a heightened emotional state.

So you had anger looked a certain way, romance looked a certain way, grieving and loss looked a certain way.

But what they discovered, quite frankly, that was more unique and significant than the fact that we had emitted these waves was that one wave was four times more powerful than any other wave emitted by a human being.

And that was the frequency of authenticity.

So when two human beings are communicating passionately about something that they're authentically interested in, when someone is being honest, forthcoming, straightforward, and passionate about the subject, they will be received at a four times higher rate.

Wow.

Take that a step further.

There's something called the law of constructive interference.

They learned that when two human beings, for instance, you're really excited about your G-Wagon, I'm really excited and well-versed in product knowledge, we're communicating about it, our frequency doubles.

So the two frequencies combine and it multiplies and we become kind of immersed in this state of passionate conversation where it's going to be very difficult to break the two of us apart until we come to sort of some sort of conclusion on that conversation, which is the sale.

I could feel that on certain podcasts.

It's science, bro.

It really is.

You know, somebody comes in here and they got this heavy energy with them and you guys are talking about stuff and

you get worked up and you get emotional and then they leave and they're like, oh man, it's like something left over, right?

Yeah, I feel that way at certain masterminds, conferences, certain podcasts.

That's cool.

Yeah, dude.

On our call last week, you said something really interesting I want to dive into.

So you said ever since you were a child, you just wanted validation.

Yeah, man.

I think probably a lot of people would agree that that's the truth for them too, but very few people will admit it.

Sean, I've been through a really dark period in my life, you know, 10 years that was hell on earth.

And it was my own doing.

You know, I was a drug addict.

I was a felon.

I was a criminal.

I made terrible decisions.

I burnt bridges.

I hurt people, right?

I learned from it.

But the one thing I discovered about myself all the way through that time is, you know, whether it was due to my parenting, my upbringing, you know, my surrounding circumstances, whatever it was, what I learned about Luke Lunkenheimer, and I'm speaking in third person, not as an arrogant.

phrase, but just talking about the outside looking in.

What I learned about that guy was that he just wanted to be liked, right?

So I was the guy that would jump my BMX bike off the roof of my log cabin just because everybody thought it was crazy and I was the only one willing to try it, right?

I was the guy that would go pinch the girl on on the butt in middle school just because, you know, nobody else would do it.

Right.

This was well before the days of, you know, that we're dealing with now, back when you were, you could do that in the country.

But the long and the short of it was, man,

I just discovered that I, that I sought validation, right?

And what that kind of caused me to do was start learning about human beings and the human condition because I felt like there was this

state of being that I was in that I was not well versed in.

And I felt weak.

I felt like I was susceptible to outside damage and influence unless I understood this thing thing about myself.

So, you know, like when I was younger, I was an athlete.

I had weak ankles.

So I studied, you know, the ankle joint and how to protect it and how to become a successful athlete even with having weak ankles.

So the same thing was for this personality flaw and this character flaw.

I wanted to learn everything that I could about it.

So in the process of gaining that knowledge, I learned so much valuable information about human beings and the human condition that we've woven into the paid to persuade discipline.

And that's why we're so bulletproof, man, because we leverage human emotion.

We leverage the the human condition.

And for those in the audience who are curious about the human condition, it's just traits that are shared by all human beings, but only human beings, right?

Something like, for instance, all human beings love good news, right?

Quick sales hack for the salespeople out there.

You leave in voicemails.

You're not getting calls back.

Start telling people you have good news for them.

You will get like a 98% return call rate.

Wow.

Leave a voicemail.

Hey, Sean, what's going on, man?

It's Luke over at ABC Motors.

Listen, I've got some really, really good news for you.

I need two seconds of your time please give me a call back when you have a second thanks click optimize for brevity that customer is then left hanging like if i don't call him back it could be a sales pitch but what if it actually is good news right so as human beings we're in a we're in a state emotionally where we're kind of mind screwed that if we don't call that person back we get the fomo right the fear of missing out yep so over 90 chance that call gets returned right all human beings love to talk about themselves like what is your podcast absolutely everybody comes on here and just wants to to vomit about themselves, myself included, right?

So there's a purpose behind it, right?

It's to help platform people and build brands.

But ultimately, anybody that gets in front of this microphone and you start asking them questions, you're going to learn things about them that you wouldn't normally get in normal conversations.

It's because people love to talk about themselves and it spikes dopamine.

You know, that's something that a lot of people don't know.

And that's something that we leverage and paid to persuade.

We teach people how to recruit the dopamine response in other human beings.

So there's a lot of facets to it, man.

But when I discovered that about myself and I started diving into it, I became 10 times better with sales person.

It's powerful.

So do you still have that desire for validation or is that something that goes away?

Yeah, dude, I don't think it ever goes away.

I mean, look at me, I'm 6'4, 275 pounds, right?

Obviously, it didn't go away.

So, you know, I'm not a bodybuilder.

You know, I'm not, you know, I was at Dragon's Lair earlier and, you know, you saw Flex Lewis, and it's like, you know, this is a guy that is a professional.

Like, he had to get that big for a reason.

Why am I this big?

I like to walk into a room and turn heads, right?

So I think, Sean, when you know what your character flaws are, okay, or what the things that are maybe not optimal about yourself are, you become really powerful as a human being, right?

Because we all have them.

The individuals that try to hide them and pretend they're not there, they either come across fake or you have that conversation where you're engaging with somebody and you just know there's something there that they're hiding, right?

And it's not malicious and it's not nefarious, but you're just like, I'm never going to get the whole picture from this person and I don't know why.

It's because they're not projecting authenticity.

And you can feel that, just like you said, right?

So for me, man, I've learned that in my discipline and in my career of selling, the more authentic I am and the more straightforward I am, people may not like what they hear.

And this is like, this is a knowledge bomb right here for the people that are looking to get better.

People may not like what they hear when you're being completely authentic with them, but they will continue to engage you because they appreciate the honesty.

So unless you tell them that you're a murderer and that their life's at risk, which would be an outlying circumstance, right?

When I sit here and tell you that I was a, you know, I'm a recovered drug addict, that I have robbed a bank, that I'm a felon, I've been to prison, I've burned bridges, I've done terrible things, those are all things about me that are a part of my tale.

But today, I'm a sales trainer, I'm worth north of 30 million bucks, I've got a beautiful wife, kids, and a career that is on a very, very hard upward trajectory.

Because of that authenticity, you're not worried about the fact that I robbed a bank.

You may be curious about it, you may ask questions, but it's not going to stop our conversation from moving forward.

I love it.

Did being authentic in prison work, or did people kind of not appreciate it?

So, that's a great question.

That's a very, very good question.

It really,

it depended on what, what we were speaking on, right?

So if you dislike something about somebody and you're openly authentic about it in prison, you might get cuffed upside the head or stabbed in your sleep, right?

So there's certain things that you're probably better left unsaid, you know, in that environment.

So I would say just discipline and metered conversation along that.

But frankly, bro, when you get into a room full of criminals, everybody's used to somebody being underhanded, right?

They're used to somebody trying to get one over on them.

So if you are authentic, you're going to kind of be deemed as a non-threat.

And as long as you can hold your own physically, you're going to be fine.

Yeah, that makes sense.

How long were you in there?

Just shy of two years.

Wow.

Was it the longest two years of your life?

You know, collectively,

so

truth be told, collectively,

it was actually over two years.

Okay.

In the state prison system, it was just over a year.

Okay.

So I don't want, you know, for the fact checkers that say, well, no, he did 12 months here, 12 months here.

I thought we don't want that.

So

collectively, yes, it was.

But frankly, the just over a year stint that I did in state, you know, I was very lucky to receive that small of a jail bid for robbing a bank.

But I had a drug problem and I was open about it and I sought recovery for it.

So anytime you're looking to recover and get better and become a participating member of society again,

the correction system is generally willing to work with you, right?

At least in the state of New York at that time.

But it was something that was incredibly difficult.

I bet.

You know, there was tears.

There was,

you know, why did did I?

There was, and then, you know, not even touching on the sobering up, man.

When you've been high for 10 years straight and then you decide, you know, well, not necessarily decided.

The decision was kind of made for me, but ultimately you just immediately sober up.

There's a flood of emotions that comes back to you.

And I just chose to be productive with it, man.

I worked out.

I made journals.

I tried to figure out what the nuances were of my character and try to optimize for fixing them on the way out.

So yes, short answer to your question.

It was a long time.

Yeah.

You defied the odds, man, because 80% of prisoners return, right?

Recidivis, yes, sir.

it's crazy super high how much did you get caught with robbing the bank oh it was like 9 800 just shot 10 grand yeah damn that's not even like a crazy amount we're talking upstate in new york bro that was a good score oh yeah

a lot of guys walk into a bank of america and walk out with 1200 bucks but what yeah it was well because excuse me the tellers have certain amounts that they can keep.

They have safes that are time-locked.

They have the ball.

This wasn't like Ocean's 11, right?

It wasn't like we ran in there with masks on and knocked over the manager, took his keys, made it with the key we stole from the head teller.

It's not like you see in the movies.

It was literally a guy with a hoodie and sunglasses on, walking into a bank very nicely, frankly.

Hi, ladies.

Good afternoon.

Judging by my attire, it's kind of obvious what we're here doing today.

If you could please take the cash out of the drawers, no tracers, no die packs.

Just fan the money across the counter where I can see it and make sure that there's no tracking devices in there.

We're going to put it in this plastic bag and get out of your hair today.

And then they kind of looked at me, and then I had to get a little stern.

I said, move.

And then

moving it.

Yeah.

So just shy of 10 grand.

And there was a tracer and not 10 grand?

There was not.

No, man.

I I got away about seven days.

They, they, in their attempts to pursue me, they did very unorthodox things to the point where they ended up airing the entire robbery from three different camera angles on the evening news.

Wow.

They were that desperate by the time we got to day five or day six.

Yeah, 10 grand.

And you, you also look like no one else, too.

So well, I didn't look like this at that time when you're getting high off of fentanyl and oxycontin every day.

It wasn't 285 at that time.

It's probably more like 200.

Yeah.

Fentanyl.

Wow.

That's that's the toughest thing out there.

Yeah, dude.

It was, you know, high school football player, only kid in my school.

Not the only, but the only one that actually had a reasonable scholarship that would have paid for the majority of my schooling.

And I wasn't like a division one, you know, like Deion Sanders type of athlete.

I was just a good, fast, strong country boy who was going to get a D2 scholarship.

And for, again, for the fact checkers, it was an academic scholarship because that's what you get at D2.

But it's funny, with a grade average of 72, I was still getting an academic scholarship.

So you do the math.

But, you know, I lost the scholarship due to an injury, man.

And then, you know, it was all just kind of a downhill battle from there.

I got surgery to try to fix the throwing arm.

Surgery didn't go well.

They medicated me with painkillers.

I liked the way they made me feel.

It made the pain of no longer having a shot of being an athlete going away, going away.

You know, it got rid of that pain.

It got rid of the pain of, you know, my upbringing wasn't that great.

My parents had split up.

There were some problems, you know, in my home life.

So.

When you can numb essentially everything about your life that you don't like by simply eating a pill, man, life becomes a very beautiful place for a young man.

And then when you get into sales to try to do something to offset the time that you're not going to school, you know, the take a year off everybody says and go to work.

You know, I did that and I got into selling cars.

It was kind of a family thing.

And I started crushing them, man, because it was just high all the time.

Well, selling is awkward, man.

One of the top reasons that people have a hard time being productive as a salesperson is

awkward conversation is difficult to have.

Are you interested in coming on the Digital Social Hour podcast as a guest?

Well, click the application link below in the description of this video.

We are always looking for cool stories, cool entrepreneurs to talk to about business and life.

Click the application link below, and here's the episode, guys.

Going up to a random stranger and starting interrogating them and asking questions about their finances and what they're looking for and whether they ought to need their wife and so on and so forth, these are not easy conversations to have.

So when you're high as a kite and everything's just sunshine and rainbows, like you become the hell of a salesperson when there's no friction to that conversation, right?

I can say that.

It was just a downward spiral, man.

Yeah, conversations used to be very awkward for me.

I was a big introvert.

Why?

What was it about them?

I had a lot of self-doubt about myself, to be honest.

Okay, like what?

Just how I looked.

I never got girls growing up.

I was super skinny and didn't have any results back then when it came to fitness, when it came to money, anything really.

Yeah.

So I just had a lot of.

Yeah.

No, I had a lot of insecurities for sure.

Me too, man.

I had acne.

Yeah, I had terrible acne.

I was on accutane.

Brother, I graduated high school pretty much with your build.

I was just really fast and I could jump really high and I could throw the football really, really far.

And when you have a graduating class of 82 kids in a section 3 Class C school, which is literally as far, I mean, 82 kids in my graduating class, let me say it again for the people in the back, like it was not a big school, right?

So the fact that I wasn't built like a, like a, you know, a WWE player or wrestler didn't matter as a football player, right?

Um, because I was talented, but yeah, dude, I was tall, I was skinny, I had a ton of acne.

Um, I just was always a good conversationalist, and that was kind of my saving grace.

But, dude, I wanted, I had visions of grandeur, right?

Like, I wanted big, huge things, but you know in my town it was go work for the local factory or be a farmer or be a car dealer make 80 to 100 grand a year and you've got life made so i had some serious barriers man but i i line with what you're saying 100 man and in school um did you go to public school public yeah not an easy place for a tall skinny guy with acne right no i got bullied Yeah, people wanted nothing to do with me, man.

I was hopping friend groups.

So my town was 3,000 kids.

Okay.

So I was hopping friend groups.

I didn't have a small town like you of 80 kids.

So you probably knew everyone in your class.

Yeah, it was a good thing and a bad thing because you knew everybody, but everybody knew everybody knew everything about everybody, right?

There was no secrets in that town.

And they probably thought you were crazy because you wanted to leave and do your own thing.

It wasn't, I mean, yet, I mean, everybody wanted to get out.

So they didn't think I was crazy for wanting to do those things.

But it's funny, man.

And it's just like life now, right?

When you start getting success and you start looking like you're on an upward trajectory and the people that are around you that know you well and are perfectly comfortable with you being the below the radar not super bombastic individual that's just like them yep all of a sudden when you start to break through the ice and you start to see daylight those people oh don't do that man you're taking a risk right don't don't go down that road there's nothing there but failure and why would you take the chance at failing and so on and so forth and i was the guy that was like you know so what if i do fail what what happens if i go out there and i fall flat on my face at least i'm gonna know and then i'll come back here with my tail between my legs and we'll go on business as usual but if i don't at least try and I don't know that I am not capable, I'm going to sit here and wonder if I am capable for the rest of my life.

So I was the guy that just went out there and did it.

But unfortunately when the drugs entered my life, it put me into a place.

They say that individuals that are addicts, you know, a lot of them have ADD.

A lot of them have these deep-seated inabilities to, and ADD, most people don't know this about attention deficit disorder.

And I'm not, I'm not talking out of the textbook here.

This is just general theory that it's a lack of dopamine, right?

So somebody who doesn't have ADD is just engaging in their day-to-day life and they're finding enjoyment and a dopamine response, which dopamine is just that natural feel-good chemical.

Pretty girl comes up and winks at you and walks away, that kind of warm, cozy tingle that you get up your spine.

That's dopamine, right?

Somebody who has ADD doesn't get that in normal day-to-day operations, right?

They need an extreme.

dopamine catalyst.

They need to jump a motorcycle off of a cliff or they need to go skydiving or they need to have some sort of life-threatening situation in order to leverage a dopamine response.

So as an individual, I was just in a position where I had to do crazy things and try to break that mold.

Otherwise, I was not getting the same baseline quality of life that my peers were.

And that's what led me to want to go out and chase those big, magnificent things.

Then the drugs entered my life and they are dopamine in a pill.

So all of a sudden, that need for dopamine is satiated and I can calm down.

And it's like, wow, this is what the rest of the world does.

This is how people can just sit around and play Madden all afternoon and be okay with it, where otherwise I'd be getting up, up, bouncing around, trying to go outside and do something, right?

Or this is how my friends can sit on their boat and just cash the fishing rod all afternoon and be perfectly comfortable doing that, sitting there drinking beers.

I couldn't do that.

Hell no.

I was the guy that was like, I'm going to jump off the front of the boat and try to catch a catfish with my hand, right?

Like, guys, wake up, let's do something, right?

Then come the drugs, then comes the synthetic dopamine, then comes nice, calm, fit-the-mold Luke Lunkenheimer that everybody liked a hell of a lot better.

Wow.

So once prison was over and the drugs were out of my system, I was right back to searching for dopamine again, but I wasn't going to use drugs again.

So I found it in other things.

And that's why you see 19 and a half inch arms, not 20,

and

a pretty bombastic

career.

What's that?

All natty?

No, sir.

No, sir.

No.

We're not.

Well, listen, bro.

Like, for instance, I watched one of my competitors in the industry giving a podcast talking about, you know, not being on steroids, followed up immediately by talking about I'm just on testosterone.

Well, testosterone is by definition.

definition an anabolic steroid, right?

So lack of education is the number one problem when it comes to anabolics, right?

So Sean, I'm 40 years old.

No one looks like me at 40 years old that doesn't have a little bit of testosterone augmented, you know, into their system.

So, but here's the problem: it's lack of education, right?

So people hear you say, you know, are you natty?

And they think that when I say no, that means I leave here.

I get in my truck.

I grab three D-ball out of my center console.

I drink those.

I snort some Anadron.

Then I shove a needle in my butt while I'm driving down the road.

And then I go in the gym, I punch people, I rape women, and I run out the door screaming like a green, incredible Hulk.

Like, obviously, I'm being facetious, but society believes that anabolic steroids are something that they are not, right?

And what most people don't know is 99.7%

of every Hollywood actor, WWE wrestler, professional athlete that your kids are idolizing, all are using exogenous hormones, right?

Absolutely, bro.

How do you think they're so far separated from the rest of society?

It's not just freaking talent, man, right?

Well, then the people say, well, what about steroids and what about PED testing?

Yeah, when you're tested, as long as your system is empty.

And again, but that's the misnomer, right?

People say, oh, he's saying that professional athletes are on steroids.

No, what I'm saying to you is there are moments in their career where they have augmented their hormones and they have built extra muscle, extra fast switch muscle, extra, you know, joint healing.

And what people don't understand about steroids is it's not about, you don't shoot steroids and then get huge, right?

It enhances your ability to recover, for the muscle to recover and repair itself.

It's done at an exponentially faster rate.

So you're able to work harder, you're able to pump harder, the heart works harder, there's more blood, excuse me, blood cells, and you're just able to do more and you're able to heal faster.

So

you simply answer the question, yes, man, I do use testosterone.

It is at what most people would consider a TRT dose.

Sometimes I elevate it slightly just because I'm looking for a response in my muscles.

But like, you know, I'm at what you would consider the outset of this

socially loud sales career.

And I want it, you know, I want it on a foundation of honesty, right?

I don't don't want 22-year-old kids out there going, man, I want to look like big Luke Lunkenheimer from Paid to Persuade.

And all I got to do is drink protein shakes and eat fit meals, right?

Because that's not what's going to happen, right?

But frankly, you know, I never even considered using testosterone until, you know, over 30 years old.

And it was because I didn't need to, and nobody needs to, right?

That's a very slippery slope as well.

But so long answer to a simple question, but it required some clarity, I think.

So yes, I do use exogenous testosterone in a therapeutic way.

I will say increasing my testosterone has helped my business and health.

So you're not natty.

I don't use TRT though.

Okay.

I take like natural supplements.

But

yeah, I was at like a 450 and then I started taking some tonkad, I leave vitamin D, magnesium, all that stuff.

I'm at like an 800 now.

Interesting.

Yeah.

So I would honestly be interested in having a conversation with you after the fact about doing it naturally because it's not, you know, there's nothing that says that doing it, you know, with exogenous hormones is the way I want to do it.

I've just never been introduced to another way.

Oh, yeah.

But having my baseline testosterone 800 to 1,000 is where I need to be to get the muscle response that I have right now.

So I'm perfectly open to do that.

What do you want, man?

Just I'm all about holistic.

If I could treat it holistically, then that's pretty much my mindset.

If not, I'll get surgery or whatever.

But I'm not a fan of most Western medicine.

I would tend to agree with that.

My wife recently put me on a juicing regimen.

My blood pressure was elevated, and the doctor made the direct correlation to testosterone.

I said, okay, fair enough.

So I removed the testosterone completely.

Blood pressure stayed right where it was.

Yeah, exactly.

My wife put me on beet juice, ginger, turmeric, and some other shot twice a day.

Blood pressure was lowered 20 points.

I was right at normal.

Nice.

So, for whatever reason, that way it cleaned me out.

It got me back to homeostasis, whatever.

But it, quite frankly, had nothing to do with the testosterone.

It definitely was a holistic remedy that got me right back where I needed to be.

I think you could fix a lot with just lifestyle and diet.

Dude, because people don't realize what they're doing to themselves a lot of times during the day.

So, just reducing that nonsense behavior and all the processed foods and stuff.

Yeah, you're absolutely right, bro.

A lot can be solved that way.

Going back to the mental health stuff, some of these labels scare me because I feel like people use them as excuses so easily.

Okay.

And I'm not saying people don't have anxiety and depression.

Sure.

But people are just so quick to say, I have these things and they almost manifest them.

Do you agree with that?

I think that you and I align on a lot of things, Sean.

I think that, you know.

I forget who it is, but there's somebody that says there's no such thing as depressed, right?

You can't be depressed.

It's like, bro, you've never suffered from depression before.

Like you've never not been able to get out of bed and said, I want to get out of bed.

I need to get out of bed, but I feel like there's no reason for me to even get up and face the world because, quite frankly, I'm this close to just cutting my wrist wide open and bleeding out and thinking that that's going to solve everything.

Luckily, I've never experienced that, but I've had people very close to me who have.

Okay.

One of my parents was hospitalized clinically in a mental institution for a significant period of time behind bipolar disorder and depression.

It's a very real thing, okay?

When you see somebody that you've known since birth, literally, okay, your birth,

undergo a fundamental change in who they are as a human being, and then you see medicinal intervention that completely polarizes them the other way, okay?

And polarize is probably the wrong word, but for lack of better verbage, just solves the problem and they're back to being somewhat normal.

Then you see them get a little bit cocky, like the problem is solved.

They get back off the medicine and then go right back to that place.

And it's truly like flipping a switch.

Depression is a real thing, okay?

I suffer from an anxiety disorder, okay?

And if we're talking about being forthcoming and, you know, no holds barred, which I'm perfectly fine with, man, quite frankly, I don't want the world to know me as anything but my completely authentic, candid self.

I was hospitalized for what I thought was a heart condition.

Wow.

I left the gym and I was having like like a fluttering feeling and it was very uncomfortable.

And then I got what they call the impending sense of doom, which is just this feeling that my life's going to end quickly.

Something's not right with my body.

And it's very difficult to describe.

And the people that are out there that have had that feeling before know exactly what I'm talking about because it was the only time they ever felt that way in their life and they never felt it again, hopefully, unless they experienced the same thing.

And you just know you're dying.

You don't know why.

You know, in that particular instance, I felt discomfort in my chest.

I felt burning.

I felt kind of what felt like a heart palpitation.

And then I thought to myself, okay, well, at least my left arm's not going numb because I heard that.

And before I could even finish the thought, my left arm went completely numb.

Wow.

Fingertips were purple.

I was white and clammy.

I got in.

I was driving a Mercedes-Benz E class at the time.

I could barely grip the steering wheel because it was like that synthetic wood grain with a plastic coating on it.

I could barely grip the steering wheel.

I got to the urgent care.

And I said,

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I believe I'm having a heart attack.

And they started moving 90 miles an hour.

They They got me on the EKG.

They got me hooked up.

They gave me aspirin.

Went to the hospital.

They called an ambulance.

I mean, the whole nine yards, these people thought that I was, you know, having a myocardial infarction or heart attack for the layman.

And

got to the hospital and could not get the symptoms to lower or lessen.

Just was, you know, it was bad.

And

a nurse practitioner at that hospital that knew me and knew the amount of workload that I was under at the current time came in and said, Luke, we're going to bring you in for some sort of diagnostics.

I need you to take this pill because it's going to help with contrast on the chest x-ray.

I'm like, okay, not think, took the pill, drank it with some water, you know, just went back to doing my thing.

About 45 minutes later, she comes back in the room.

She's like, you ready to go for your x-ray?

I'm like, yeah.

She's like, how you doing?

The pressure on my chest was gone.

I looked over at the vitals.

My heart rate was normal.

My EKG was normal.

Blood oxygen was 99%.

Blood pressure was 120 over 80.

I'm like, it's gone.

She goes, yeah, because I gave you a Xanax.

And so it was an anxiety attack.

Wow.

Yeah.

You want to talk about it?

And frankly, in that moment, I broke down into tears.

I looked at my wife and she's like, baby, calm down.

I'm like, no, I'm not, I'm not weak.

I'm not, I don't have panic attacks.

Like, that's for wussies, you know, for lack of a stronger word.

You know, that's not me.

And then, you know, I got educated.

And, you know, there was a therapist that explained it to me that it's not about feeling anxious.

It's not about panic.

It's a very physical thing when there's a significant workload.

And, you know, probably drug usage in the past might have had something to do with it, with certain stressors that are not well tolerated.

And it's just a physical thing.

You know, they're like right now, you got what, 11 million followers on Instagram, million people on YouTube.

I'm having a great conversation with you, enjoying myself right here.

Not nervous in the least, actually, quite enjoying myself.

I could go to dinner tonight,

drink a soda, fart, and have a panic attack.

I mean, it just comes out of nowhere, right?

So, you asked me that question, Sean, and the answer is it's a very real thing.

Yeah.

However,

is it clinically overdiagnosed to a to a huge degree?

Without figures and statistics in front of me, I can only give you my opinion, which is yes.

Okay.

I've met people that are in no way malfunctioning mentally, that are medicated and giving me this grocery list of conditions that they suffer from.

And we live in a society that's very litigious, right?

So if you're a doctor and you have somebody come in there and say they're suffering from a disorder and you don't medicate them, you're immediately subject to litigation.

Right.

I mean,

it's just reality, right?

I mean, go talk to a doctor.

Say, hey, if somebody comes in here and says they're suffering from a mental illness and every index, you know, because they give these therapists index, you know, which is just a series of questions that solves for, is this individual

yes or no, suffering clinically from this particular ailment?

And they go by these indexes and of course they mix in their personal opinion and their experience and that's what gets you a diagnosis.

And these guys and gals are looking at this individual going, yeah, there's nothing clinically that shows me that this individual, in fact, if nothing else, it looks like drug-seeking behavior.

It looks like they're saying all the right things, but not having these actual behaviors, right?

But they know that if they don't give that individual medicine and then something happens where they have an episode or they're staring off into space and their kid gets hurt or God forbid, they end their life, that they're immediately subject to litigation.

So, you know, if you don't give give somebody medication as a doctor when they're saying that they're suffering from a mental ailment, you know, I think you're probably in a really dangerous place.

You know, I hate to say that, but that's our medical system.

That makes sense from their point of view.

I always wondered why they handed out prescriptions like candy, but I never saw that side of things.

So.

Well, I mean.

Because I remember when I went to just random doctor, never met him before, told him I had anxiety, gave me Xanax the first day.

Bang, just like that.

Just like that.

That's a ridiculously heavy narcotic, right?

Yep.

So for me, you know, I'm a recovered drug addict.

You know, if I go into a doctor's office office and say I want Xanax, they're going to laugh and say, have a nice day, right?

But when they witness clinical symptoms and they're, you know, trying to solve it in any other way possible, but finally just coming to the conclusion that, damn, that's just what this is, right?

And, you know, truth be told, I'm prescribed, I think I asked for 10 pills a month.

You know what I mean?

Because I probably fight through two or three that aren't even, that I don't need the medication for, right?

So that's an example of somebody who needs the medication and is using it responsibly, right?

Then you have people that every time they're not having a good day, they're having a panic attack, right?

Or the amount of people who go to the doctor and say, I just can't focus anymore.

I just leave piles everywhere.

And then Adderall, you know,

it's unfortunate because there's a dichotomy that exists.

And if you're not medicating for the issue, you're not being a good...

clinician and you're subject to litigation.

And then if you're not prescribing X amount of drugs, you're not meeting your obligation to your pharmaceutical partners and the wheels of big pharma aren't turning.

So, we've created a system that I think is just set up for failure in this country, which is we've incentivized, you know, prescribing pharmaceutical drugs and we've incentivized litigation if you don't prescribe pharmaceutical drugs.

So, you know, you're in a position where you're getting exactly what you said.

Catch 22.

100%, brother.

I saw you hanging out with Brad Lee.

Good guy.

Yeah.

Brad's awesome.

Or some takeaways from learning from him or doing business with him.

Jesus.

You went on this podcast, right?

He's a talker, man.

He likes to say bad.

so um yeah i did i went on dropping bombs um so

our relationship stems from an interaction that i had with one of his salespeople yeah when i decided i wanted to be a sales trainer i did some research in what is what is one of the if not the most effective way you know online video interactive video repository and testing platform to create an educational platform right um and it just kept resonating throughout all my research you know tony robbins damon john grant cardone andy elliott jeremy miner you know all the guys in the same space that i all the people in the self-development space, people in culinary business, wherever, light speed virtual training, light speed virtual training, you're welcome, Brad, for the free plug.

But so I decided I wanted to look into his company, spoke to one of his salespeople, and just I had followed Brad, not like a devoted follower, but I had watched his videos and I really liked his methods and the way, because he was very authentic.

You know, he's, I don't want to say like me, because he's my predecessor, but we align quite a bit.

And that's why we had such a long podcast.

I think he films for 45.

We went for like an hour and 20.

It's because we were enjoying the conversation because we're very much aligned mentally.

So I just said to the salesperson, I was like, listen, you know, I already had already made the decision that I was going to engage with them, but of course I was trying to get every inch I could.

So I said, yeah, I'll do this.

I was like, but when I go there, I want to meet and have, you know, five or 10 minutes with Brad Lee for a photo op and say hello and so on and so forth.

That turned into a 40-minute conversation and Brad asking me to not take my flight and do a class within the next day and a podcast.

and an online mastermind and all this stuff.

And we just, we resonated, man.

It was that law of constructive interference and authenticity yep you know I just walked into his office and introduced myself and he's like you know who are you I said my name is Luke Lunkenheimer as far as you're concerned I'm that mother effer that's how we started our conversation and he's like that mother effer and I said yep he goes well all right that mother effer sit down but I knew you know I knew I had to grab his attention so because you know I'm coming from obscurity right now you know the world doesn't know me they will but they don't know me right now hopefully that changes a little today but the conversation that we had was awesome it was very authentic we talked about selling and you know the future of selling AI you know just like we spoke about.

And he's just like, dude, you got to come back and do dropping bombs.

We got to do this for people to see.

And we did.

And we had a lot of laughs and

the feedback was good.

That's so cool.

Luke, where can people find out about your coaching and what else you got going on?

Yeah, brother.

So paid to persuade.com is our website.

I'm going to throw a shameless plug for my socials here.

It's Luke Lunk, L-U-K-E-L-U-N-K on Instagram.

And listen, it costs money to engage with us from a sales training.

aspect, right?

But if you're in,

where's the camera?

I can talk to the people.

So guys, if you're in sales, okay, and you're looking to get to the next level, you see the people making the big, huge commissions and you know you're decent and you really, truly enjoy what you do, but you can't quite connect.

four, five, six hundred thousand dollars a year in commission to what you're doing now or the people that have trained you.

That's what we do.

We make that connection for salespeople.

Okay.

So what I do for the people is I'm essentially trying to help the younger version of me that exists out there in the world today.

Kind of be the good uncle for the guys that come from maybe an obscure place.

Maybe they don't have the right mentorship.

Maybe the place that they're working at doesn't have the appropriate systems in place to help them get to the next level.

But I continually and incessantly put free tips and content and knowledge nuggets on social media.

So Luke Lunk on Instagram.

I'm on LinkedIn, any of the meta platforms,

YouTube.

We have the Paid to Persuade channel, P-A-I-D, the number two, persuade.

Am I missing any of the major?

So TikTok on TikTok, Luke Lunk.

And Sean, I'm just giving free tips, man.

Like, and there's a lot of the fundamental pieces of the paid to persuade discipline that we kind of piecemeal out to the people through social media.

And the hope by doing that is, and it's proven to be an effective way to do it, is that we're giving people that don't have the money to engage right now because they're just getting started or maybe they're at a low spot enough knowledge to realize a real true increase in their selling.

And then once they realize that the information that they're receiving is very, very good and it's helped them substantially, then they're able to engage with us as far as purchasing our sales training or getting coaching from us.

And it's nowhere near as expensive.

We've got training that starts at $200, goes all the way up to $5, $10,000 for businesses.

So I would encourage people to take action.

One of the biggest things that we see, the bane of my existence as a sales trainer, is seeing all these people that are engaged in a career of selling and persuasion that are not actively seeking additional help and they have no idea what they're missing.

We start out with lifestyle mindset training.

We move into the sales training and we're changing people's lives, frankly.

Absolutely.

I mean, it goes back to how we started.

You doubled your own sales rate at your company.

So for people watching this, think about if they could double or even increase their sales rate by 10, 20%.

We guarantee 20.

Oh, you guarantee 20?

We are the only, and I'm so glad I just said that before we ended this thing, man.

We are the only, and I've done the research.

So if anybody has seen anybody else out there with it, please correct me.

We are the only sales training company in existence right now across the world in all the research that I've done that guarantees efficacy.

If you are an individual and you're in sales and you engage with us in what we call a B2C relationship, meaning we are the business, you're the consumer, we sell you our training, our coaching, you do business with us.

We guarantee direct monetization of 20%, which means your commissions will increase by 20%

or we'll give you your money back.

Wow.

No questions asked.

Absolutely.

That's a no-brainer at that point.

And for businesses, brother, it's 10%.

So we guarantee efficacy.

And the framework is this, man.

Let's really look at the principle of this.

If you're a sales trainer and you're claiming that you can help people get better,

do you want their money if it doesn't work?

No.

Like, is that a morally sound engagement?

Oh, we're going to bring you this X, Y, and Z training and we're going to get you to this level and so on and so forth.

It's like, okay, bro, well, where's the guarantee?

Microwaves come with warranties.

You want people to spend thousands of dollars to hear you talk or to click buttons on your online training platform and you're not giving them any guarantee?

Bro, We're going to take over the world as far as selling and persuasion is concerned because, number one, we are so damn good at it, we're going to run over everybody else.

But, secondly, because we're the only place that you can go and be guaranteed that you're going to get results.

And if you don't, you get your money back.

I haven't written one refund check yet.

Wow.

So, that's impressive, man.

Yeah.

Well, we'll link it below.

Thanks for coming on.

Absolutely.

Thanks for watching, guys.

Check out his stuff below.

See you guys tomorrow.