Getting Banned on Facebook, Successful Paid Ads & Spending $12M on Tiktok I Maxwell Finn DSH #435

Alpha Brain is an amazing product.

Celebrity factor.

We were able to start with them when Rogan was really blowing up.

So we rode that train.

They also pay a lot more to acquire customers.

This is pre-unilever acquisition, post-unile acquisition.

Got it.

And they were like, we're going to pay more than we make day one to acquire a customer because we value that.

So they were paying us, you know, right out of the gate, probably $50, $60 a customer.

Now they're paying us well over $100 to acquire a customer.

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Welcome back to the show, guys.

Got with me possibly the number one TikTok ads expert in the world right now, Maxwell Finn.

How's it going?

Good, man.

I would wish he started, but maybe like the number four, number five.

So that way people's bars like here, I can just do better.

And it's number one at the end, maybe.

I mean, you're spending $12 million a year.

You got to be in the top three at least.

doing we're doing okay yeah yeah we're doing i mean i don't know anyone spending close to that on tick tock so why'd you go all in on tick tock i mean it comes back to what we we were just talking before we hit on the show is i got banned by facebook so it was almost a necessity right like i built my entire career on facebook yeah right started early early maybe not like with tick tock i was really early like before they even launched publicly facebook i was kind of in the first wave right

Did really well.

We built a large agency with Kevin Harrington, ran for 3M, Samscode, all these amazing companies, and then started teaching about it, speaking about it.

And then probably three years ago, I logged in one day and I had the little box that says, your account's been banned.

And we've talked to a lot of people over the years of people that can recover it and stuff, because we've gotten plenty of ad accounts back for our buyers, everything.

But my account was nuked.

It's like a level where they can't even do anything about it.

And what's crazy is I didn't do any, like, I hadn't even really been on Facebook for a while.

We have media buyers.

Like, I wasn't really running any Facebook ads at the point.

So it wasn't like I was something I posted or an ad ran or whatever.

And still to this day, no, no reason given

no ability to appeal.

You think someone got paid off or something?

I don't know.

We can put tinfoil hats on.

We can get pretty crazy there.

But yeah, so it was a necessity.

So I got banned.

And then I was like, what do I do?

My identity was kind of built around this.

I was like the Facebook ad guy and all the speaking things.

And so I was like, okay, I don't know what to do.

And then kind of serendipitously at the time, I'd gotten an email maybe three months earlier from some people at TikTok saying, hey, we're rolling out an ad platform.

Can we show you like what we're building?

So reached back to Albany said, hey, let's take a look.

And I had said no the first time because I didn't use TikTok.

I didn't really get, I couldn't understand it.

I didn't get it.

So I said, yeah, let's hop on a call.

They showed me what they were doing.

They showed me all the stats, like behind the scenes, like just the app metrics and growth.

And it was just like, it was insane.

And we all know kind of the stats now.

But back then, it was like wild how much better it was than Meta in terms of engagement and usage and all that stuff.

And so, well, I got nothing nothing else to do.

We have our team running ads, so I might as well try to figure this out.

And jumped on it, started running ads there, started trying to figure out the platform.

And transparently, like early on, not great.

Results were pretty poor, very bare bones on the platform, not great tracking, not great attribution, but like stuck it through.

And then the kind of first Q4 on the platform saw some things start to do well, start to perform, like ads for brands like Goli and stuff.

And

yeah, I mean, just kind of the rest is history.

Yeah.

And just started really doing more on it building more on it creating more content around it speaking about it and uh there wasn't a lot of people early on even now there's still not a lot of people that are actually like running a lot of ads there like in the agency world or doing it well it's like a secondary thing or third thing it's like we kind of do stuff there but it's like not a priority for a lot of businesses out there i can only think of you and cole gordon and what's funny about cole is um Cole's great.

Cole's a, so we did consulting with him like a year and a half ago to get them and their team on to TikTok.

Oh, yeah.

And yeah, I mean, they're doing great.

They moved a ton of spend.

They were spending, I think, you know, 20,000, 30,000 a day on YouTube at the time.

This is a while ago.

And they moved a ton of that spend to TikTok.

So they were just getting incredible cost-per-book calls.

Had to work on some of the quality stuff.

Yeah.

Quality is lower.

But they're rolling out a ton of amazing stuff on the lead gen side.

My buddy Brian, who's my first rep there, and this is the cool thing of being on platforms early, is like the access.

and the people that grow.

So like my buddy Brian was like a rep, my first rep there.

And over the years, he's grown and grown and grown, moved through departments.

And I was kind of running like a lead gen department over there.

So I just get this amazing insight from them.

And like on a lead gen, they know it's like quality is a big thing.

So they're rolling out a lot of cool features, like direct integrations, HubSpot, CRMs to pass back purchase data.

So you can optimize for actual purchases, not just leads, lead forms around any more qualifying questions.

So you can basically question one on an instant form, on a lead form, you can ask,

hey, do you make $50,000 a month?

or more, right?

Just basic.

And if they do, that's the only event that fires back to TikTok.

So anybody that says no, they're not going to learn from that.

So, the modeling and everything is much better.

So, yeah, there's a lot of cool stuff rolling out there.

Yeah.

So, you're big in the agency game.

I know you're doing crazy volume there.

How have you seen the agency space sort of evolve from when you first got into it?

It's gotten a lot tougher.

Yeah.

A lot, more competitive.

More competitive because

whenever something starts doing well, then there's all the biz ops come in, all the education, everyone starts teaching it.

And so, agency is like, still to this day, I think, probably the easiest way for a kid out of college to like make six figures.

You need, even if you're charging on the low end two grand a month, you need five clients, 120K a year.

And you can manage that one person, right?

So a lot of people jumped into it, flooded with competition.

Businesses are just jumping from agency to agency.

So what we're seeing is this move from retainer to performance.

And this is one thing we've done massively over the last year.

We've made a huge shift to go all into performance.

And what I mean by that is like, we front the ad spend.

So all the ad spend goes on our credit cards.

And then we get paid a CPA or CPL.

So we get paid on a purchase basis.

And high risk.

Yeah, because what if the ads don't work?

So this is what we spent so much time on.

This is why we're so good at it.

A lot of people think of performance marketing.

All these agencies you want to get out now.

They all want to start doing this.

And there's so many things that are not thinking about.

One is the vetting.

Like we've spent probably.

We've spent probably six months perfecting the application form, the right questions asked, how to vet offers, how to onboard and test offers, because every business wants it.

Like every business of the world, if you said to them, hey, we'll spend our money growing your business and you only pay us per sale and you pay us a number that makes sense for you.

Sign me up.

Every single business wants that.

But most businesses aren't in a position to do it.

Their funnels don't convert, their offer doesn't convert, they can't afford to pay what they need to pay you.

It's like, because they might have an $80 cost consumer, they're like, we'll pay you 20 bucks.

It's like, no.

So on it, for example, Joe Rogan and Aubrey's company,

That was our first performance partner.

We've been working there for over four years.

We've sent 120,000 plus customers their way.

We've done over 10 million commissions for them.

And the reason that works is, one, amazing offer.

Alphabrain's an amazing product.

Celebrity factor, we were able to start with them when Rogan was really blowing up.

So we rode that train.

They also pay a lot more to acquire a customer.

This is pre-unilever acquisition, post-unile acquisition.

Got it.

And they were like, we're going to pay more than we make day one to acquire a customer because we value that.

So they were paying us, you know.

right out of the gate probably $50 $60 a customer now they're paying us well over 100 to acquire a customer Just for one customer?

For a customer.

How much is their product?

$39 cost consumer for one, but most people buy the bundles, but they have subscription and it's supplements.

Got it.

AG1, like AG1, like their lifetime value for athletic greens is ridiculous, right?

80 bucks a month, people stay on for years and years and years, right?

And so, and that's why like Russell's been able to grow so well with ClickFunnels.

They pay way more to acquire a customer than they make day one.

And that's like the secret.

Like, you want to grow a business today?

Make it so you can pay more to acquire a customer than the competition.

And most people aren't aren't willing to do that.

They're not willing to do that.

They want to make money or they just can't.

If you're a startup, you don't have cash in the bank, right?

You don't have subscription recurring revenue, multiple products.

Like this is what you got to do.

So

yeah, most people can't do it because of that.

They also don't have the economics.

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If you get paid even on the best basis, like a net seven, right?

And let's say for Alpha Brain, like last month, we did about 1.2 million in commissions for them.

So we were spending $50,000 to $70,000 a day because they really wanted to ramp things up.

So they increased the CPA for us.

They wanted to push volume.

Well, that means we're spending $50,000 a day on our cards.

We get paid on a rolling kind of seven-day basis, which means you need to essentially have enough credit to put $350,000 on a card.

or have enough cash reserves to do it.

Damn.

Most people can't.

So they want to get into the space, but they don't think about those things.

Like things go well and scale.

Everyone wants a scale, but they don't think about the economics of scale and what that means.

So I think a lot of people want to move to this space.

I talked to a lot of big agency owners that are friends of mine, and they're tired of the retainer business.

It's exhausting.

You are a, the power dynamic is way off.

And there's a cap.

Yeah, there's a cap.

And it's just a really, you're constantly getting bitched at.

Yeah.

The clients, if you have a great day, awesome.

You have a bad day, they're on your ass.

Great day, bad.

You can have 100 great days in a row.

You have one bad day.

They're blowing you up.

Slack, text, all this stuff, right?

It's a pain pain in the.

And then you're dealing with phone calls, reporting, meetings, Slack messages every day.

With performance,

we talk to clients on maybe a monthly basis with checking with Onit.

Hey, what do you got for us?

Any new creative, any requests like that?

That's all Paul cares about it on the guy there.

And we're the last person who's going to fire because we send them customers every day at a number that makes sense for them.

They're not even paying you up front.

Yeah.

We're not going anywhere.

So our life cycle of a client for performance is way longer.

We don't have to worry about churn.

We can build deep relationships.

And then from there, it's like, this is the flow thing, right?

You have retainer agency everyone wants to get into.

Most people get stuck there.

Then you move to performance, where you're doing CPA, CPL, rev share, profit share deals.

I would avoid profit share, even because then you're dealing with like what's an expense, what are we putting on the books?

Then it's equity, where you're getting a piece of the company, which I think more and more agencies should get because you're a huge part of the growth, especially if the company is like less than 10 million a year.

You can double, triple companies, right?

You should get a piece of that.

And then eventually it's, well, let's build our own thing.

Let's either acquire and scale or start our own thing.

So we know so much about nootropics.

We've run so many Notropic offers over the years.

Why don't we have an Notropic offer?

Why aren't we building something there?

And that's why we're launching Unicorn Brands and we're doing a fund because that's like the idea is like, well, we can actually invest in or acquire businesses.

And then we have all of the everything else you need to grow a business.

We have all the other things that you need.

When you invest, like if you're private equity venture capital, put money into a company, like they're going to use that for growth.

Where does the money go?

It goes to marketing.

Well, we do marketing.

We have capital.

It's like now we have capital and marketing.

Let's really grow things.

Got everything you need.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And that's when, is that when you started your political company?

Because that one's doing 20 million a year, right?

Political, it's a huge story.

Like, so we started this in 2016.

Oh, okay.

So 2016, we had the agency with Kevin.

So we had Quantum Media.

Kevin and Brian, his son, they had done the Obama coin.

Last election cycle.

So they did a collectible coin for Obama.

Okay.

Said we were running all, you know, agency stuff.

Said, well, guys, we have the marketing team, like funnel building.

Let's do it for this election cycle.

So we did it.

We built everything for Hillary.

Trump won.

Remember, we got a partner's dinner out at Steakhouse.

We saw the election results come in.

We're like, well, we're going to be up all night rebuilding everything.

So we built it for Trump.

Exploded.

We did, you know, and this is back.

Wait, was this the Trump coin?

Yeah.

We saw this.

We did the original Trump coin.

I saw that.

So we did the first Trump coin.

We did, I don't know, five or six million in a few months, which at the time was, I mean, it was massive for us.

Yeah.

And the mistake we made was we ran it.

We did really well with the coin.

We didn't, we treated like an offer instead of building something on it.

So we kind of just, it just died off.

And that's the thing about political businesses.

Political businesses are very cyclical.

So they hit, they go crazy for two years leading up to an election, for a few months after the election, and then they just die.

Right.

So most people in our space that popped up last cycle, they don't exist anymore.

They're bankrupt.

So we started like 2019, 2020, like, let's do this again, but let's do it right.

So we did it, made a ton of money again going to last election cycle, had a lot of issues because of all the stuff that happened like at the election.

So

we were spending right when that happened in January on Parlor, we were spending like $110,000, $150,000 a day just on Parlor.

Everything was crushing.

Yeah.

Well, no, no, no, that's truth.

Oh, true.

So Parler was before that.

And then Parler got shut down.

We were talking to the people at Parlor.

So like, hey guys, we maybe get like the whole thing might go down.

And Amazon took them down.

Everyone took them down.

So we went from like spending a ton, making a ton to like dead again.

And now we're leading the selection cycle with very different business.

Cause we started, most people all like, they all copied us, started doing the coins, like little cheap, print-on-demand dropshipping products that are all like crappy.

So we actually invest a ton of money like making unique trademark products.

So we have like amazing bobbleheads.

We have collectible graded cards.

We have like the trumpetator bear, like an actual teddy bear.

Like our bobblehead, so we have it, it's like the trumpetator.

So it's like Schwarzenegger, like Terminator.

It's on his plane.

Oh, God.

So Trump Jr., Don Jr.

posted a video in the cockpit and on the actual cockpit on the dash.

It's our bobblehead.

It's actually sitting there on it.

Did you send it to them or do they bought it?

Wow.

Somebody, the pilot bought it or somebody bought it.

That's sick.

That's that creative right there.

Yeah.

So there's,

it's a wild business.

Yeah.

It's a crazy business.

There's all kinds of stuff.

that like I could spend hours talking about just that business.

But yeah, I mean, this, this year, it's been going really, really well.

We're doing like 1.7 a month in that business.

We've built reoccurring revenue into it, which I think is really important.

Most like physical product e-com businesses don't think about reoccurring revenue.

Huge mistake.

I think every business should have reoccurring revenue.

It changes the game of how you can go acquiring customers.

So we have a subscription program, does about $500,000, $600,000 a month.

And then the rest is straight sale.

And what do they get when they subscribe?

Yeah, so we launched like a first kind of pilot around it.

We're actually rebranding, launching a brand new one that's way better.

That's more of like a Pabletics model to They get credits and stuff like that.

But right now, up to date, it's been

collaborative.

They get like discounts on the whole store.

They get discounts from

partners we work with.

They get a physical, really beautiful printed physical newsletter.

We send to them like a five-page thing.

They get content.

They get courses.

They get training, like survival, self-improvement, like prepping, all that stuff.

And then giveaways.

But yeah, we're adding a bunch more stuff to the new program for the next year.

Because our plan is like, we know the next 12 months, it's going to be crazy.

So it's ideally, it's like, you know, we do 40 plus million next year.

And are you doing both sides or are you just doing Trump stuff?

We've tried.

Back in the last cycle, we launched, I think, denser2020.com.

Couldn't sell a thing.

We've tried it numerous times.

People always ask us, like, if it does so well over here, why don't you do it over here?

Right.

And it's like, we've tried.

We can't get any traction.

Wow.

It just doesn't work.

People aren't as passionate on the Democrat side, probably.

Yeah, it just doesn't work for whatever reason.

I feel like Republicans are more open about showing, you know.

Yeah, I mean, we had, I mean, on the right, it's like

so much passion,

so much energy.

They want to show their support, not just financially, but like actually demonstrate things.

Like, I have this, I have this, I have this.

Like, they're going to buy everything you put out.

I agree.

Yeah, because I sold Trump when I had Jersey Champs.

I did Trump jerseys and I did Obama jerseys and even Hillary, but yeah, Obama and Hillary didn't even sell.

Yeah, I'm sure the Trump jersey just went crazy.

Dominated.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What was it like meeting Russell Brunson?

i mean that dude's a billionaire right russell's cool he's um i sold startup drugs to him which is kind of cool yeah um so this is a wild story so um

before i even met russell i knew russell for a long time because he's just one of the best marketers in our generation and uh i startup drugs the apparel brand for entrepreneurs that was my first e-com business i started and uh I remember one day seeing an order come in.

I had two orders that came into that website that I was really like, this is so cool.

One was Miami Dolphins.

It was like the order came in.

It's like Miami Dolphins and had like their address and stuff.

They bought a bunch of stuff.

And the other was Russell.

He bought a ton of t-shirts.

Then he wanted to buy a bunch of stuff from us over the years.

So that business never did great.

I made a lot of mistakes with it.

We ended up selling it.

And we sold it for, it was like nothing.

It was a fuller for like 100 grand, something like that.

And it was more strategic.

The guy was going to do like a whole entrepreneur podcast network and it was going to tie into that.

And like two years went by.

And Russell reached out on Instagram.

He said, hey man, like, do you still own startup drugs?

I would love to buy it.

I said, well, I don't anymore, but let me reach out to the guy.

So I reached out to the guy.

And what's amazing timing-wise, is at that time, he had just fired the guy he hired to run it.

They weren't doing anything with it.

They basically were going to shelve it.

Right.

So we said to him, like, hey, if we were able to get you back what you paid us for it,

would you then be willing to split anything over that 50-50?

And he said, sure.

Right.

He basically gets his investment back, plus he makes money reselling it.

So we went back to Russell and said, hey, here's the deal.

We have a partner.

We got him to agree to it.

And he said, sounds good.

We give a number.

Cool.

We'll send you paperwork today, get you money on Monday.

Nice.

And yeah, I mean, it wasn't like a crazy number.

Still pretty big flex.

But it was cool.

And I was more excited about it because I would love to see what he did.

Nothing's really been done with it yet, which is like I'm kind of disappointed about, but I'm sure at some point he'll probably do something.

He's

building a billion-dollar company.

He's got

a lot of stuff going on.

Yeah.

So in terms of running great ads and getting high ROIs, people always talk about ad creative, ad copy, website.

Like, what do you think the most important things are?

I think right now, what it comes down to is you're creative, your angle, your offer, and the economics of your business.

Like, I think those are the four things that if you think about like what's going to move the needle for a business in 2023 and beyond, those are it.

Like all the technical days of media buying, there used to be back in the day, like all these crazy strategies.

If you dupe your Facebook ad seven times at 1 p.m.

and you do this and this bid, like you make money.

I remember that.

And the platforms are just getting so much better, right?

Between AI and these machine learning and all that stuff, like a lot of the targeting, the bidding, the optimization, all that stuff, the platforms are going to do that better than the human being.

They're not emotional, right?

They're not turning things off and turning things back on and letting things get in their head.

It's just based on data.

Here's your goal.

Here's what we want.

Here's what you're going to spend.

We'll spend it effectively for you.

So if you're not worrying about that anymore, it's like, well, I need to have better angles, better creative than my competition.

And on the creative side, it's like, I need to be better at grabbing attention, getting hooked, sparking curiosity, opening that loop up, getting people to just get off the app.

That's the name of the game.

If you can't get them to pay attention to get off the app, nothing else matters.

The best product, best offers matter.

So you really need to have that.

You can't be copying everybody.

This is the other thing when it comes to angles.

Everybody, I remember this when like Hermosi really started blowing up.

It was everybody's like the captions, the captions.

It's got to be that.

That's the thing.

And so everyone was like, what is, you know, what font does he use?

What style does he use?

And it's like, and then everyone started copying them.

And it's like, that's not how you build something, right?

What you want to be is Alex.

You want to be the guy that everyone copies because you're the first person to do something like that, right?

You want to be the person that's setting the baseline.

And so for me, it's like our team I push, we always need to be testing different angles.

We need to be testing things nobody else is even doing, things that nobody is even seeing.

And most are going to bomb.

But it's all right.

If you bat, you know, 250, you're doing great in anything we do.

The performance marketing business, anything we do.

If you're batting 250, like awesome.

25%.

Right, yeah.

So 70% of things fail, but you only need a few.

And that's the way, even like a VC, right?

You can invest in 10 companies and nine to be bombs and one's Twitter or one's meta.

Like, you're good.

The whole fun.

Yeah.

That's the model, right?

And then you do it again and again and again, and it compounds.

And so those are things on the platform.

It's creative.

It's the angles, right?

And then it's your offer.

Like, do you have a compelling offer?

Do you understand how, do you understand consumer psychology?

I like posted this the other day.

It said, if I was talking to a brand new marketer today and they were asking,

what should I learn?

Should I take a Facebook ad course, a TikTok course?

Should I learn this?

Don't worry about the channels or platforms or anything.

Go read books on neuroscience.

Go read books on behavioral economics.

Go read books on consumer psychology.

Because if you can understand those things,

how the brain works and how consumers act and do things, because it's not rational.

If you look at guys like Roy Sutherland, right?

It's one of my favorite books, Alchemy.

Consumers are illogical.

They say things and they do things, and the things they do are different than things they say.

And so you need to understand these things, and you can incorporate that into your offer, into your landing page.

Little things, pricing psychology.

Understand that like pricing something at $39 versus $40 has a massive impact on the purchase.

It actually matters.

It's called charm pricing, right?

So $1,

right?

Anchoring, framing, things like that.

If you look at, you know, you go to movie theaters, right, and you have three sizes of move of popcorn.

Most places, and they've changed a little bit, but most places, they use, it's called the decoy effect.

They'll put the medium popcorn and they'll price it almost identical to the large popcorn.

The reason they do this is because if you just have a large and a small, people go with a the small because the price difference is big.

Like I'm going to eat a large popcorn.

If you make it so it's $5 for a small, $8 for a medium, $9 for a large, people buy the large because now they're comparing the eight and the nine.

They've gotten me on that.

And

that's how our brains work.

Yeah.

Right.

You're no longer comparing large to small, you're comparing large to medium and large to the better deal.

So you take the large, right?

And so understanding that.

and be able to incorporate that like the economist is the most famous example of doing that in history right and that's one more story and then we'll move on but like when they went online they launched a a online only, right?

And then they launched a

print and online bundle.

The online only was $59 a year.

The print online was like $129 a year.

And nobody took the $129 a year.

And they're like, that doesn't make sense.

They're getting both things.

But the problem is it's like $59 was such a big difference in price.

So what they did then is they added a third offer and they added print only.

And they priced print only at basically the same price as the print and web only.

And now all of a sudden, the flip, the demand for, before it was like 60, 40 or something like that, it flipped because now they were comparing, well, I can get just a print, or I can get web basically for free.

This is a great deal.

I'm going to take this.

And that changed the game for the economist.

Wow.

So these are things I think every market, every business owner needs to understand to put into their offers, put into their landing pages.

And then lastly, it's the economics.

If you look at brands like Gymshark, the reason they're able to grow so fast, they have a negative cash conversion cycle, which means that they essentially collect money for for things they sell before they have to pay for it.

So for us, like that's been a big success of Hero Brands.

Wow.

So we sell a product on Facebook ads today.

We don't have to pay for that product for like months sometimes.

Really?

We have an amazing relationship with the guy that does all of our coins and stuff.

And he'll invoice us sporadically.

He's like, oh, yeah, you have a $200,000 bill.

You can pay it now.

So we are able to float that cash.

Most businesses, the vast majority, it's the other way.

You have to buy inventory from China or whatever.

So you write a big check today.

It gets delivered.

It takes three months to get delivered.

Then you put it on the shelves and takes three to six months to churn through the inventory before you collect the cash.

You have to float a lot of cash.

It changes that you can acquire a customer.

If I can acquire a customer today and have to pay anything other than the Facebook spend, I can scale a business way faster than you can scale a business.

So those are the things that I think are most important right now when it comes to ROI on marketing.

Wow, dude, that's so powerful.

But that makes a lot of sense because when you're running ads, I mean, you're spending all that money and then you're stacking up product costs, shipping costs,

so many costs.

But you worked out basically net terms with your suppliers.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's, that's a game changer.

And then you can snack in invoicing with TikTok.

So we're on line of credit with them.

Oh, you are?

Line of credit with TikTok.

Wow.

And so that's net 30, but it's the way that they do the billing.

So it could take, you know, 45 days to like 59 days, depending on the spend, because you spend like the first week of the month.

That's then 30 from the end of the billing cycle.

Then you can pay that with a card.

So then you can get another 30.

And we'll pay that with

a Chase Premiere card or something like that.

We get 2.5% cash back on spend.

It's like over $5,000 payments.

So you just pay them in bulk.

So that's the thing with performance business.

If we spend a million dollars a month, the partners, we take 25 grand, just split it up between us every month.

So we each get

eight grand or so every month just from the spend, not from the product.

There's all these little things that just like most business owners, most marketers aren't thinking about.

Because everyone's so focused on like the technicals of facebook ads and tick tock ads and i got picked the right plot it's all these things that really are bs and like in the grand scheme things don't matter it's incremental we focus on things that are like this is big needle movers like we do this thing it takes us from here to here not from here to here

love that and how much money would you say you have to spend to get adequate data to know if it's a good ad or not because i know it used to be a lower amount but now you need to spend more right

potentially um we have pretty tight kill points because we do performance.

So we're funding the spend, like we're pretty aggressive when we kill things.

And we kill things on different metrics.

So we'll look at like, we have like CPC kill targets because we just know based on we have a calculator that runs the data, like here's what our CPA is, here's the conversion rate they offer.

So like we know that if a cost per click is like over 100% the average, the chance that that's ever going to work is slim.

So we'll do like really tight kill points.

Like if just rough math, like if we spend half the CPA, the breaking CPA, and our CPC is double the average,

we'll kill it.

So if we need to be at 150 on a cost per click, and the cost per click is like $6,

and the CPA is 80 bucks, and we spent 40 bucks, we'll just kill that ad.

Got it.

Because what we also noticed too is, yes, you need more data nowadays because to get these the algorithms to really get optimized, especially at scale, to do smart performance campaigns or automated shopping campaigns and stuff, or Advantage Plus.

But on the creative side, the ad side, we found like things hit or they don't hit.

You probably see on the organic, on the content.

It's like if you do this piece and this piece, this piece, things are going to hit or they're not going to hit.

And so we're looking for hits.

We're looking for wins.

Sure, can we have false positives?

Can we run something and maybe killed it prematurely?

Possibly.

But we found that a lot of ads, like the chance of this is a $6 cost per click for the first day or two, it's magically day three, day four going to be our best performing ad really doesn't happen.

Whereas we find an ad that just crushes and it's getting 4% click-through out of the gate, it's got a $10 CPA on a $40 payout, something like that, that's what we're looking for.

So we want more at baths, we want more swings.

And if that means we got to be tighter on like killing stuff, we're fine with that.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Man, I've learned a lot.

It's been a great episode.

Anything you want to promote or close off with?

We're not promoting too much stuff.

I mean, our agency is super selective, right?

So

we don't work with most businesses because we have really, really tight vetting.

But if you're a business doing a minimum of probably $20 million a year, it's looking to acquire 100 plus customers a day on performance, you can go to unicorntraffic.com, go with our application, see if it's a good fit.

And then if you want to learn from us, we have coaching programs, courses, you go to unicorninnovations.com.

That's the best place to learn.

Nice.

Love it.

Thanks for coming on, man.

Awesome, brother.

Appreciate it.

Great episode.

Thanks, guys.

See you next time.

Later, guys.