Buying Businesses for $0, Masterminds & Interviewing Logan Paul I Roland Frasier DSH #416

Somebody that invited me to be on their show, similar to something like this.

I didn't know anybody, nobody knew me.

After the show, he said, Would you mind if I put some people into a room and they each paid $25,000 to be there?

And sure.

And he's like, Can we split the profits?

I'm like, Okay.

And he did that.

And then at that thing, we sold into a $75,000.

This is amazing, just

from volunteer, you know, asking to be on the show.

And then what does that lead to?

So, yeah.

wherever you guys are watching this show i would truly appreciate it if you follow or subscribe it helps a lot with the algorithm it helps us get bigger and better guests and it helps us grow the team truly means a lot thank you guys for supporting and here's the episode all right from san diego we got roland frazier in today guys how's it going it is going fantastic how are you doing good man you're here for your big event tnc i am yeah this is our first time in vegas we've been in san diego for the last forever and so uh we're moving out here now what caused that change to leave your hometown Really, just the availability of hotels and things.

There just weren't enough in San Diego.

And so we wanted to move here.

We thought it was an easier place for people to get to and that there's more places to stay.

Yeah, I want to talk about the growth because how many people are attending these now?

We'll have about 5,000 this year.

Wow.

And what was the first year's attendance?

I think it was 300.

So you've 15x'd in how long?

Yeah, and we were actually bigger.

hit all events, so we were basically shut down for two years.

Right.

And so we went virtual for that, but you then have to come back from it.

So it's super impressive because not only the attendance numbers, but the ticket price to these isn't cheap.

It is not.

So your average order value is five figures, pretty much, four or five figures.

It is, yeah.

Which is insane.

Yeah, it works out well.

Yeah.

Is cultivating to the higher income crowd always been sort of your business philosophies?

Yeah, I mean, it's not necessarily targeting higher income crowd, but more

advanced people.

Like this, this is an event for intermediate and advanced marketers in the digital marketing field most of the products that we have are targeted to higher level in whatever they're doing and so you get more commitment from the people so we really target based on that psychographic more than the demographic of income that makes sense yeah i know you're also part of some really good masterminds too right yeah

we have uh rise nation with uh damon john we partnered on um we have one called uh founders board which is uh for businesses that are generally 10 fig uh 10 figures that are generally 10 million or above.

And then we have a business buying and acquisition mastermind called the Epic Board.

So we have our marketing mastermind for digital marketers is M3.

So there's about nine of them that we're involved in.

Masterminds have changed my life.

And I'd love for you to talk about like just the importance, the networking, all the good things about masterminds.

Yeah, and mine too.

Like really, I can trace almost everybody that I have met and know that I'm doing business with back to a mastermind.

Wow.

And so it's, you know, I'm a huge fan, not just because I've invested in several, but because I got so much benefit from them before I knew anybody at all.

And really, that was the launch pad that allowed me to meet a lot of people.

And so from the very first one that I went to, which was called War Room, which we just we discontinued about a year ago.

Yeah.

But it was

It was just meeting people who wanted to do for other people and going in with the with the service mentality of how can I help people.

Out of that first time that I did it, I met somebody that invited me to be on their show similar to something like this.

I didn't know anybody.

Nobody knew me.

After the show, he said, would you mind if I put some people into a room and they each paid $25,000 to be there and learn from what you're doing?

I'm like, sure.

And he's like, and we'll split the profits.

I'm like, okay.

And he did that.

And then at that thing, we sold into a $75,000 thing.

And I was just like, this is amazing just

from volunteering, you know, asking to be on the show.

And then what does that lead to?

So you never know what's going to happen.

And you never know who you're talking to.

Some of the most successful people that you and I know, they'll be at the bar at the baseball cap just having a beer, you know, and you wouldn't think that they're running a hundred million dollar plus company, but they are.

And maybe they're not.

And neither.

Neither matters.

You treat them all nice.

You do for everybody.

And it comes back.

It's just a total chromatic thing.

Absolutely.

And the cool thing with masterminds is it filters all the fluff, too.

It really does.

Yeah.

You've got people that are committed.

And that's what I was talking about, like the people that we target too, is that in a mastermind, somebody's paid $10,000 to $50,000

or more to be there.

They're committed.

to whatever that mastermind is about.

And they're going to show up.

They're going to be looking to get an ROI on it.

And they're going to hopefully be looking to give as well.

And those are the people that I really want to connect with because they're committed to success.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Like you said, I look back at all the ones I've been part of, almost all of my podcast guests probably came from a mastermind or a conference at one point, which is insane.

It is.

It's super nuts.

I want to talk about the one where you teach people how to buy businesses.

Sure.

That model is super interesting to me because you're putting down 0% on a lot of these, right?

Yeah.

So I look at it as it's not no money down, which is a common misconception.

To me, you can do no money down deals.

It's hard to do with really profitable businesses, but you can definitely do no money out of pocket deals.

The difference is that the seller is going to get something, is going to get some cash at closing in a no money out of pocket deal.

It's just not going to come from you, from your cash or from your credit.

And I learned that.

I was really, really fortunate.

I got my securities license when I was 20 years old to be able to sell securities and raise money.

An investment banker at Prudential Securities in New York took me under his wing.

And at the time, this is late 80s, they were doing all kinds of leverage buyouts and things like that.

And I was like, what's a leverage buyout?

And he's like, leverage buyouts, the best thing ever.

We buy these companies and we use the assets of the companies to get the money to pay for them.

So we're basically getting them for free.

And I was like, that's amazing.

And I had done no money down real estate deals before where I bought houses and didn't have to come out of pocket.

And I was like, this is basically like no money down for bigger businesses.

And he's like, absolutely.

And so I learned some of the strategies that they used and found that you can acquire businesses with cash.

Like you can come up with millions of dollars of cash.

It's just not yours.

And you don't have to go out to a private equity fund and give away 80% of the deal.

And you don't have to go to banks and have these terrible covenants that, you know, are oppressive and don't allow you to do anything.

You can actually do this creatively.

And it just lit me up as all these different ways that you could make that happen.

Yeah.

And you've bought a ton of businesses using that method.

And I also saw you say with acquisitions, there's only a 2% fail rate.

compared to starting your own, which is 90%.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Up to 90%.

SBA says 65%.

Depending on what kind of business you do, it goes up significantly higher.

Yeah.

I feel like it's definitely higher than 65%.

I think it is too.

Yeah.

I don't think they'd want to admit the real numbers.

I think you're right.

But it's cool because 2%, because the team's already in place, the business is running, you see the books.

Yeah.

You're just taking over.

You got to figure if it's been, let's say it's been operating for five or 10 years, it's grown steadily 20% a year.

It's significantly profitable.

It's got a good profit margin.

It's got professional management.

It's likely that that's going to continue unless some crazy thing happens.

Right.

So I think the risk of that is so low, it just, it's a no-brainer.

And the fact that you can actually get into those businesses that already exist so much easier than to start one up, even in terms of access to capital, there's only six or seven typical ways that you would fund a business you're starting up.

There's over 300 to acquire a business.

Right.

And is your main priority the cash flow from these businesses, just stacking that?

No,

I'm really about acquisition for wealth.

Because if I can exit every time I exit, because businesses typically sell for a multiple of their profit, if they're selling, let's say on average for 10 times profit, that means the year that business sells, I get 10 years of profit.

If I can exit five businesses a year, that means I'm getting 50 years of profit every single year.

Right?

So I'm thinking acquire, build, grow, scale.

and exit within a three to seven year timeline.

And you've exited numerous companies, right?

I have, yes.

Have you learned any key things throughout those processes?

Yeah, so many things.

On the,

you want to like kind of across the journey on the buy side, I'd say the biggest thing is that number one, it is possible to do without having a pile of cash or a bunch of credit or big investors.

Number two, the biggest mistake that I see people make is that they give away.

the profit that they are going to add to the business when they buy the business.

So if you're selling me a business and you've done a million dollars a year in profit for the last five years, right?

then i'm going to pay you based on a million dollars of profit but what you're going to try to do as a good seller is you're going to say yeah but when you get this business and add it to all that you can do you're going to do eight million dollars so the business is going to be more expensive than pricing it at a million because of what you'll be able to do now that's my money right because i'm going to be adding that value only i can add that i'm buying the business to then add the value i shouldn't give that away yeah and i see a lot of people do that they they justify paying a higher price than they should because they're like, oh, but when I take it over, it's going to do this, this, and this.

But what if it doesn't?

Right.

So I think that's a big deal.

And then on the exit side, there's so many people that I've seen that have exited businesses and then they'll go out and they'll coach people on how to exit businesses, but you don't know if they were good at it.

Right.

Right.

You don't know if they got the best price they can get.

What I've seen over and over and over again, even in dealing with a company like Blackstone, who we sold a company to not long ago,

it's probably you're going to be able to get anywhere between a two

and a two times to a 2x on what they offer.

On profit.

So let's say they come in, no, not on multiple.

Let's say that they come in at an offer you six times profit.

Yeah.

You should probably be able to negotiate that to somewhere between eight and 12.

Oh, wow.

Yeah.

So

many people.

They're not lowballing.

They're coming in at industry.

Like if the industry average, like there was a company not long ago we sold

at a 11.5 multiple.

The initial offer came in at a six, and they typically pay between six and eight because you can find out what, like if a private equity company or a fund is buying, you can generally find out what's the range that they're paying.

Right.

And in this case, they said, this is the highest multiple we've ever paid for business.

And I've done that over and over and over again because there's a lot of value in the business that's going to appeal to a buyer that you as the seller or the operator or owner of the business don't understand because you're playing a different game.

You're playing, how do I grow my company?

They're playing, how do I buy a company and sell it?

And so if you know both sides of that, then you can find the trigger points that will allow you to have greater leverage with the person that's buying because you can show them that the company is actually more valuable to them than they originally thought.

But if you don't know how to do that, you're going to get to six to eight.

Yeah.

And six to eight still isn't too bad either.

Yeah.

And that's, and across all businesses right now, it's 2.4 for privately owned, owner-operated businesses, meaning that you've got to be there to make it go, that are doing under $2 million in profit.

It's four if that same business is not owner-operated, it's professionally managed.

And it's 10.2, which is down almost 33%

over the last year from what it was before, because it was 15 before.

But it's about 10 now for private equity companies across all industries.

Different companies sell for different ones.

And so those are kind of the broad guidelines that we use as we're looking at those.

We're looking to buy typically for between one and two X, and we're looking to sell for 10 plus.

Amazing.

And is there a timeframe you shoot for within X amount of years?

Three to seven years.

Oh, so quick.

Yep.

Wow.

Yeah.

And how are you finding the buyers?

So there's lots and lots of different ways.

We'll do direct outreach.

We'll use AI calling agents to call a thousand people a day.

It's AI.

Yeah, it's a lot of AI sales conversations to qualify the business to see if they want to sell.

Interesting.

That's our primary thing that we're doing right now.

And they don't even know they're talking to an AI.

They don't even know.

No, sometimes it glitches and they do and they figure it out but you know yeah that is funny so if the AI calls them what are they saying exactly so basically it says something along the lines of hey I see that

you own XYZ Co and I'm just giving you a call to ask if you've ever thought about selling the business and they'll say yes or no you know well yeah yeah I was thinking about I might do it and then it has a complete conversation based on whatever they you know, whatever they're going to do.

Is that a company you created or are you just a customer of?

We have a company called AIFI My Business that does all of that.

So and then when we go into a company, we'll do it as well.

So for a real estate company that wants to recruit real estate agents, we'll just make thousands of calls a day to real estate agents recruiting them.

And that's what's cool.

And we don't have to have a whole sales team of setters setting those appointments.

And the AI goes all the way through to setting the appointment.

Or if we're doing e-comm or something like that where we're selling, we'll bring that functionality into the business and set it up so that you can actually have sales calls that are going out that lead lead to actual sales.

Brilliant.

I love to see you embracing AI, man.

It's super cool.

Oh, man, it's so exciting.

Because some people are scared of it, but it's made my life easier too.

It has made my life so much easier.

Because imagine manually calling a thousand people a day.

Oh, think about the sales team.

So, I mean, we like, if you think about, we have one of our businesses, we've got about a hundred people that are on the phones.

And if you think about setting all those appointments for those people, I'm going to need maybe two or three times as many salespeople that are just having initial conversations doing SDR, you know, the appointment setting, basically, right?

And so if I don't have to have those people, I don't have the payroll.

I don't have the drama.

I don't have the extra compensation.

I don't have workers' comp, I don't have people getting injured.

I don't have people not showing up for work.

I don't need somebody to manage 300 people.

And unlike a salesperson who's only typically a setter, who's only typically productive for a few hours during an eight-hour shift, these are productive.

100% of the eight hours.

Right.

There's a lot of motivation.

And you can't throw them off.

You can say, you know, oh, I had a terrible day and you're horrible.

And they're like, okay, so what I'd like to do is talk to you.

You know, they're not thrown.

They don't get depressed, right?

It's perfect.

So you've built in responses when they're getting crossed out?

Yes, absolutely.

That is so funny.

Do you buy certain industries or are you open to various?

I'm pretty open to anything.

It's more negative qualifiers than positive at this point.

You know, we're generally looking for something that supplements or adds value to something we've got or is a significant new platform we want to go into.

But given that we really prefer non-inventory businesses, I like services more than products.

I like digital products.

I like e-learning.

We like consulting.

We like home-based services like garage doors and HVAC and things like that.

We like events still,

but we generally would like, I would shy away from medical, things that were, that had heavy HIPAA compliance, heavy SEC or FTC compliance, those issues.

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We'll click the application link below in the description of this video.

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You know, we generally like to avoid those just because...

you know, if I don't have to do it, I don't want to do it.

And then inventory, because it's a whole extra expense category that I've got to think about or heavily CapEx capital expenditure expenses where you have a lot of expensive assets that are obsolescing quickly.

We'll generally stay away from those.

That makes sense.

A lot of the retail brands with with heavy inventory, their margins are just unsustainable.

They're terrible.

Yeah, exactly.

And like you said, it's selling based off the profit.

So you want high profit margins.

Yes.

Is there a typical profit margin percentage-wise you aim for?

Yeah, 20% minimum.

Okay.

Yeah.

That makes sense.

Yeah.

The problem with e-commerce is it's usually below that.

Yeah.

And then think about like the, it's because the margin for error.

If we get a 20% margin business and we screw it up and it goes to half, it's making 10%, which is not great, but it's still okay.

If we got one that was making 7%

and we lost 10%, we're negative 3%.

So I'm concerned about that because you never know.

Integration is one of the hardest things.

Once you acquire the thing,

how is it going to fit into what you've already got?

Have you seen the events fully recover yet from or is it still?

No, it's still

years.

Yeah.

I think it just takes,

you had to rebuild a lot from

where you were.

And so, and a lot of them just went out of business.

And so I think that

people are still

really this year, I would say, is the first year that I don't feel that we were impacted.

Even last year, there was like a flare-up right before our event and it caused several people to cancel or plane flights to get messed up.

Did you take a massive hit during owning all these retail businesses and events?

No, we were up in every category and we got just so lucky because we sold our we sold Traffic and Conversion Summit in 2018.

We had an earn out that was 2019.

And then 2020 is when everything shut down.

Wow.

So we were just absolutely fortunate the way that worked.

Yeah.

But interestingly enough, our real estate businesses, our restaurant businesses, our e-learning businesses, all of those, our e-commerce businesses, all of those had record years throughout the pandemic.

And so it was really just...

this past summer that we saw a tick down from pretty good hockey stick growth.

And that was really only end of July, August, beginning of September, which I think was primarily revenge travel, high interest rates, high inflation concerns.

Back to school is always a hard time.

But then October, November, December, December across most of our companies was like best month ever.

Nice.

Now, do you put all these companies into one portfolio company?

No.

We build platform companies.

So let's say that we've got a real estate brokerage company called Big Block Realty, and Big Block then then is the platform.

And so then we'll say, okay, well, what are the other companies that people will need to buy products or services from before, during, and or after the time they're dealing with this company?

So we bought a staging company, an escrow company, a mortgage brokerage company, and so on and so forth, all around that in that platform holding company.

Then if we're in e-learning, we've got digital marketer, we've got

Epic, which is the business buying thing.

We've got a consulting for equity thing, which is how to get consulting,

how to do consulting and get equity in businesses.

We've got a business operating system called the scalable system, similar to EOS.

And so all of those are in a holding company.

And so we're basically doing it by vertical.

Wow.

Sounds like you're really passionate about this stuff.

I love it.

Love this.

I see you smiling the whole time.

That's great.

You let me come here and talk about it.

You know, I talked to you about my wife.

She's like, yeah, yeah, I know, I know, I get it.

You know, it's like, here, you're actually interested.

Yeah,

I'm very interested because the model is so low risk.

You're not putting up any money.

Yeah, and even the way we do roll-ups.

So like in the real estate business and home services and

the Day Spa business, we've got roll-ups rolling.

And that's where you're acquiring multiple businesses in a vertical to get more market share.

So in real estate, we're basically going out and we've aggregated about $100 million of profit right now in other real estate companies that have committed to come into our roll-up, but we're not buying them with cash.

We're buying them with equity in the roll-up company.

If they were going to sell, they would only be able to typically get about a 5X on their profit.

If you look at what these companies are trading for on NASDAQ, they're trading between 35 and 45X.

So we can basically go in and say, we'll give you 10X double or 15X triple in your business when

we go public.

And in the meantime, you continue to operate as you're operating.

When we aggregate 200 million, we'll pull the trigger, pull them all into the one company, but will never have spent a nickel in cash.

We basically pick up 30 to 50%, depending on when they came in, of the sales price.

They pick up 70 to 50% of the sales price, but they're so far ahead of where they would have been otherwise that it's really compelling for them to come in and they don't have to give up any income coming in.

So it's a really cool model that we've been able to develop that we use to acquire hundreds of millions of dollars in equity.

And if you think about that, 200 million in profit then goes to, let's say it's only a 30, goes to 6 billion in valuation.

We pick up 30% of that.

We pick up 1.8.

They pick up the balance.

Everybody wins.

That's insane.

It's a billion dollar deal for you.

It is.

Yeah.

Wow.

And you can do that pretty quickly, too.

No, it's a, well, depending on your definition, quickly, three to five years.

Yeah.

To make a billion in three to five years, I'll take it.

It takes way too long.

We're going to try to cut that down.

Yeah.

Wow.

That is an interesting model, but it makes a lot of sense.

And going public, is that sort of the next stage for what you're doing?

Yeah, it's either public, which I don't like because there's so much hassle with it, or selling to generally a very large family office or a private equity fund.

The challenge is the spread between what private equity would probably pay

and what the going public would do is about double.

So the question is, do we want to give that up?

Is it worth the extra hassle?

And that I don't know the answer to yet.

Yeah, I always wondered why these public stocks get such a high valuation multiple.

Do you know why?

I think that was it.

It was either Buffett or Benjamin Graham that talked about Mr.

Market is irrational, right?

It's irrational exuberance.

I don't know how you justify the cost of the stocks so much, but it's really truly, I think, looking at capital gains.

They're not looking at business fundamentals.

They're looking at what's growth look like and what do I think the stock will be worth this, you know, this many years from now.

And that's just a, it's a different game.

Yeah.

So you mentioned you sold the company to BlackRock, right?

Blackstone, yeah.

Blackstone.

Is that the one that owns a ton of real estate?

Both of them do.

Okay.

Yeah.

Did you learn anything?

And they're related, which is,

yeah, the guys that had Black, I think it was had Blackstone were like, let's start another one.

What do you want to call it?

Black Rock.

Haha.

You know, it's like, ah,

figure.

Was there anything you learned during that deal?

The biggest thing

I didn't, I wouldn't say I really learned anything

other than in integration.

Like you have to get everything.

Oh, actually, I did learn something really good.

So

this was new and unexpected, but

they had an option to buy us out and we had an option to force them to buy us out five years after the deal closed.

And it was based on EBITDA.

But keep in mind, and they had about, I think, 150 deals like this.

I don't know for sure.

So if you're from Blackstone, don't, I'm not saying this is true.

But they

had a buyout deal based on EBITDA, but all those events were dark in that year.

So literally the ability to buy out everybody who had held on to part of the percentage of the company was a right to buy out at zero.

Whoa.

Right.

So they exercised across most of those events to do that and bought out lots and lots of hundreds of millions of dollars of equity for $0.

Pretty cool play.

So I learned how to write the agreement differently going forward so that wouldn't happen.

That was a big learn.

Wow.

$0.

And some of those companies were probably generating tens of millions.

Oh, yes, absolutely.

Yeah, they have giant shows.

That is interesting, man.

I know you buy some old school businesses too, right?

Like laundromats and stuff.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Is that something that you focus on or it's more just that's more just for examples for people just to to show them that you can do things like that.

I really, they're too small for what, you know, what we're mostly interested in.

Yeah.

So you want to become a billionaire.

Yeah, you know, there's a little ways to go on that.

But

I see it on my goal sheet as pretty doable.

Next guest after you, Chris, wants to become a trillionaire.

So you're going to have to step it up.

I know, I know.

Well, Chris is awesome, and we've partnered on several things.

And if anybody can do it, he can.

Love it.

I saw you also.

You have your own show, too, right?

I do, yeah.

Yeah, he's got Logan Paul on there.

Yep.

Yep.

Did you learn anything from him?

You know, he was one of my favorite interviews.

And I know he's had a lot of controversy and everything, but as

a person who just comes across as really, really smart and

also willing to be vulnerable,

he's one of my favorite interviews because I would ask him questions.

You could really see him thinking about the answer and then answering.

from the heart.

And I enjoyed that.

I appreciate when guests open up like that.

Yeah.

And he has a lot more depth than I think people give him credit for.

I agree.

Because to get to where he's at, he had to have done something differently.

You know what's cool?

And you interview a lot of people.

And

I do a lot of research when I'm interviewing a celebrity type person.

And I have interviewed several that I wasn't really that interested in.

But then I do the work and I read and everything.

And the reason that they're all as successful and exceptional as they are is because they have really put in the dedication to it.

I have never interviewed somebody that was a a lucky billionaire.

I've only interviewed people who have like,

I didn't know that Martha Stewart, when I interviewed her, I didn't know that she started out as a fashion model, worked for Chanel, then was one of the first female stockbrokers on Wall Street.

I mean, it's like, and Arnold Schwarzenegger, you know, coming up and then and not thinking about it, but it turns out he was like at the peak in three different completely separated, unrelated things, bodybuilding, acting, and politics.

It's like, as you you learn what it takes to be successful, you learn that there's always a depth and an effort that isn't on the surface.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

That work ethic, because that's what is people's biggest asset when they're first starting, right?

Yeah.

And then they get into bigger things.

Yeah.

You mentioned there was a mastermind, 10 million or more in revenue you have to do to join.

Yes.

Yes.

And I can't.

talk about that one, but I can tell you about one that's 100 million plus that is called R360 that's run by a friend of ours named Hillel and his business partner.

And it's really cool.

They started with Tiger, which is recently raised.

Used to have to be 10 million net worth and now it's 30,

Tiger 21.

But they started there and then they were like, what would actually be kind of a higher level?

And I really, really love what they've done.

They'd be good for you to have on the show.

I would love to have them on.

So 100 million in revenue to join you?

100 million in net worth.

In net worth.

Verifiable investable assets.

Wow.

So that's like on paper net worth.

Correct.

Yeah.

A lot of people say they have that, but

that's one thing to back it up.

So what have you learned from the members in that mastermind?

I am not a member.

I just met them through Damon John.

Got it.

The last time I was in Miami.

And as a matter of fact, they're coming out to San Diego.

We've talked about doing some deals together.

So hopefully we'll be able to work something out.

And I can tell you as a principal soon.

I love that, man.

Anything you are working on, excited about?

Anything you want to promote before we close off?

The things I'm most excited about, I'm probably most excited about all the cool things you can do with AI.

I just, this last

14 months of having ChatGPT exist and then all of the competitors and all of the companies that have started up and all the things that we've been able to do in our businesses and our portfolio companies and what we see coming with the ChatGPT store opening allegedly this week.

There's just that, that is where I'm most excited.

And then, you know, as far as things, I've got a podcast, Business Lunch.

Would love people to check that out.

We talk about this stuff on a YouTube channel.

Yeah, we'll link it in the the video i didn't know uh chat gpt had a store coming out yeah gpt is those little mini apps that you can build yeah um and we've been doing it uh ever since they launched the ability to do it and it's amazing what you can do without really needing to know any code the ability now to monetize on that in the store we've monetized on gpts by selling bundles of them but we haven't seen that's through our own traffic and our own marketing right having discovery like you can get and traffic from the apple store for GPTs that anybody can build with not really a whole lot of skill, although they can go quite deep, is going to be very exciting.

Brilliant.

Yeah, that's how Apple makes a ton of money, right?

Right.

And I'm guessing they're going to do the same model:

30% or something.

Yeah.

Well, Roland, it's been a pleasure, man.

Thanks so much for coming on.

Thank you for having me.

I appreciate it.

Absolutely.

Thanks for watching, guys, and I'll see you tomorrow.