Sugar Doesn't Cause Cavities, Is Fluoride Bad for You & Why People Fear Dentists | Monica + Donald Bailey DSH #325

mean, I think the thing that I see most commonly from people is the assumption that if I do a better job brushing and flossing, I can solve my cavity problem.

The reality is, most of us have tried brushing and flossing and we still end up with cavities, right?

And when you have that struggle, what's happening is most people don't understand the root cause of what's going on in their mouth.

They're like, I must be eating too much sugar.

But the reality is you have acid that's dissolving your teeth.

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Ladies and gentlemen, we're talking teeth today.

We got the founders of Epic Dental, Monica Bailey and Donald Bailey.

How's it going, guys?

Good.

Thanks for having us on.

Yeah.

Can't wait to talk teeth because there's a lot of misconceptions on social media, I feel like.

Is there any that you see all the time that you want to address

right off the bat here?

I mean, I think the thing that I see most commonly from people is the assumption that if I do a better job brushing and flossing, I can solve my cavity problem.

The reality is most of us have tried brushing and flossing and we still end up with cavities, right?

And when you have that struggle, what's happening is most people don't understand the root cause of what's going on in their mouth.

They're like, I must be eating too much sugar.

But the reality is you have acid that's dissolving your teeth and there are two sources of acid.

The acid is either coming from the foods you eat and drink.

So there's a lot of foods like strawberries, for example, or tomatoes that are acidic.

Sour candy is super acidic.

And those will start to dissolve the calcium and phosphate bonds in your your teeth just by themselves.

But you also have the challenge that if you have bacteria that live in your mouth, they'll consume any carbohydrate that they come into contact with.

They like especially, you know, sticky.

processed carbohydrates that can sit on the teeth.

Those are really easy for them to take advantage of.

But they could take advantage of a carbohydrate from a strawberry, for example, and they will break that down and turn it into acid.

So what you really need to do is you need to solve the source of the acid, whether that's the foods you eat and drink.

Like if you sip on an acidic drink all day long, it's horrible for you.

So grapefruit juice is terrible for you?

Yeah, grapefruit juice

spots, so I'm going to throw it out.

I wouldn't say you need to throw it out, but I would say pair your acidic drink consumption with your meal times.

Do it maybe three times a day.

Don't sip on a coffee all day long and let that acid, don't sip on a Gatorade or something like that all day long.

That acid will sit on your teeth.

But if you pair it with meal times, then you get a decline in the pH of your mouth, but you can buffer against that pretty quickly by getting your saliva going.

We love to recommend xylitol gum.

That's a big part of what we do.

Got a bunch here.

Thank you.

Yeah, you're welcome.

And it really helps buffer against the acid.

It gets the saliva going.

Your saliva's naturally got the minerals that

can redeposit into your teeth.

And so you want to get that flowing.

But what it also does, what makes xylitol special versus, say, any other sugar-free chewing gum, is...

When you're loaded with enough xylitol, you can actually start to get rid of cavity-causing, acid-producing bacteria.

Studies have shown that when you use enough xylitol, we're looking at about six grams a day, so two pieces three times a day, you're going to get rid of this S-mutans bacteria.

They're going to start to die off when you do that regularly.

In fact, in as little as two weeks, you start to notice your teeth feeling slippery smooth.

Like you just went to the dentist.

You have that clean feeling.

I'm going to implement this into my daily routine.

Thanks, guys.

Yeah, for sure.

Would love that.

For me, I mean, that was absolutely my story.

And I asked three different dentists in my teen years, like, why am I getting cavities?

I have great hygiene.

What is actually happening?

And all of them just kind of shrugged and they're like, oh, maybe try and floss more.

Like, they were really unhelpful.

And I was so frustrated.

And so I didn't find out until I I was on one of my first dates with Donald he was telling me about his business and what the product does and I had no idea until that moment that cavities are caused by a bacterial infection and that I had been treating the problem incorrectly the whole time yeah that is fascinating because I actually gave up like sugar and ice cream because I thought those were causing cavities but you're saying it's basically the acid Yeah, it is the acid.

It can be the acid from the foods.

It could be acid from consuming a lot of fermentable carbohydrates like sugar that it can turn, that bacteria can turn into acid.

But people who don't have that bacterial infection then they don't end up they could eat as much sugar as they want and they don't end up with cavities that's why sometimes you see huge differences like i never brush my teeth and i never get cavities versus i brush my teeth all the time and i'm still struggling with yeah i know people that don't brush right and i'm like how do you not have 20 cavities right yeah well and i think if you don't have that acid problem i mean sugar is not going to do anything by itself you have to have the bacteria to turn the sugar into acid and then that acid creates the cavity and so when you don't have those bad bacteria you get away with a a whole lot more.

Interesting.

And a lot of people don't know that the bacteria is contagious, right?

What?

Yeah, you can spread it, right?

You can spread a cavity.

I never had cavities.

And then when I was a teen, I suddenly started getting cavities because I picked up the strep mutans bacteria from some guy I had kissed.

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And then from then on out, you have cavities.

So if you're making out with someone with a cavity, you can get a cavity.

You can.

So a lot of us have fairly defined oral microbiomes, right?

They're fairly established.

So it won't always transfer over to somebody new.

But like, let's say you just went and got a tooth cleaning and now you make out with somebody.

That tooth cleaning scraped all of that bacteria and changed that oral microbiome for you.

And that's what it's designed to do.

It's designed to remove all that bacteria.

But now what's the next bacteria you introduce?

You have an open home for them to take root.

Wow.

I can't believe that.

I've never heard that.

Yeah.

Well, and that's what's really interesting is if you look in families, that's why people think cavities run in my family.

It's not genetics.

It's the fact that you are sharing bacteria in your family because you share a spoon, a straw, a kiss, and you're transferring that bacteria.

And so kids get their bacteria in their mouth from their parents a lot of the time.

That's where that oral microbiome kind of gets formed is in childhood.

And they actually did an incredible study where they gave pregnant mothers xyletol gum and they chewed it for a period of time and then they stopped chewing xyletol.

gum.

The mothers who did that, their kids didn't get cavities.

They had a huge reduction in the risk of cavities in their kids that never even chewed xyletol gum.

But it's because the mom changed their oral flora and then that gets passed on.

So the kid has a healthy, you know, oral microbiome at that point.

That is cool.

So there are holistic ways to reverse cavities?

Yeah, so I wouldn't say reverse all cavities, right?

So the studies really suggest that cavities that are in just the enamel layer, that outer layer of your tooth, can be remineralized.

A lot of times, I wouldn't even call them a cavity, right?

Technically, they're called incipient lesions.

But a lot of dentists will tell you, oh, you have a small cavity.

And there's really two schools of thought when you see an incipient lesion.

One is let's wait and see what happens.

And the other school is let's drill it and make sure that we restore the tooth function and make sure it doesn't get any worse.

And although I'm a big fan of the first approach, I can understand the dentist who says, hey, I want to go ahead and drill this so that you don't risk it going any deeper.

But when you just have one of those in the enamel layer where it's started to demineralize, you're starting to get the minerals to leach out, the minerals can redeposit.

Your saliva has, if you have a healthy diet, calcium and phosphate that can get together on the teeth.

And so what you want to do is make sure that you're giving it lots of chances to remineralize in your mouth.

The way it remineralizes, you've got to keep the pH above 5.5.

So ideally, if you can have a neutral pH.

So what I recommend for people is rinse with water following meals, snacks, sodas, any kind of introduction with acid, then introduce in a xylitol gum, chew it for at least five minutes, get your saliva going, and you'll see that it's kind of like an alarm clock for your saliva.

When you you start chewing that, the sweetness helps the saliva flow.

The chewing action helps the saliva going.

And if you just do that following meals, you start to see a really significant change in what's happening with your oral health.

That's cool.

I haven't heard rinse with water, so why not rinse with mouthwash?

So a lot of mouthwashes themselves are acidic.

Like if you take a mainstream mouthwash like Listerina.

Don't use those.

They're terrible for your teeth.

They're full of alcohol.

And that's going to be really awful for your alcohol.

Yeah, you need an alcohol-free mouthwash always.

So

alcohol dries out your mouth, right?

Saliva is your tooth's best friend.

You need saliva on the tooth for it to remineralize.

And saliva is naturally going to buffer against acids.

So when you introduce a mouthwash that's

alcohol-based, you can get rid of the bacteria that are there.

That's a lot of the reasons that people use them.

It kills off all those bacteria, but it only kills them off momentarily.

They're going to come back because they're still hiding in other places in your mouth, but it's going to dry out your saliva.

And like a Listerine, I'm guessing I'd have to look again, maybe a 3.2 on the pH scale.

Super acidic.

That's going to dissolve your teeth all by itself.

If you were to put a tooth in Listerine and just leave it there, it's going to just dissolve.

It's going to disappear.

That's how ironic.

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Right.

I used to use that because I thought it was good like growing up, and to hear that is kind of disheartening.

Well, because no one's taught how cavities are actually formed and what's going on in your mouth at all.

Like, they just say, brush and floss, avoid sugar, and hope your genetics works out for the best.

Like, no one is given real tools.

And so, I think that's part of what's so cool about what we're trying to do: we want to give people real information.

You should not have to go to a dentist to understand how to prevent a cavity.

Like, people should have this information available, and that should not be for sale.

Like, this knowledge is needed for absolutely everyone.

And so when people understand how a cavity is formed and how to prevent it, you can easily be cavity free.

You just need the right information and the right tools.

That's cool.

How important is flossing?

Is there any studies done on the health benefits with it?

Yeah, for sure.

So flossing is really designed to mechanically remove the bacteria that are along the gum line.

So your toothbrush doesn't get up under the gum line as well.

And a lot of people don't realize there's bacteria that live on the surface of the tooth, both above and below the gum line.

And they tend to be different kinds of bacteria.

the ecosystems are a little bit different

and people that struggle with peri-odontal disease they've got gum disease you'll you'll see if they floss there's the bleeding or there's reddened gums up there yeah those people are ones that really have a bacterial infection that necessitates some kind of flossing wow i think for most people a water flosser is adequate studies show that's very similar in terms of plaque removal capabilities and for me it's a lot easier to implement a water flosser into my routine.

So that's what I recommend for people who struggle with that.

The other reason we obviously obviously use floss is if you have food debris that's stuck there that you want to remove.

You know, some of my teeth sit together pretty tightly and I have what my hygienist calls a food trap.

You know, she goes in there and she's like, oh, this is where a lot of stuff probably gets stuck.

And I'm like, oh yeah, I definitely have to figure that out, you know?

And when you leave food sitting there, that food can be a fuel source for bacteria, right?

Depending upon what kind of food it is and what kind of bacteria is present.

So that's why people floss.

Do I think everybody needs to floss?

No.

There's a lot of people that don't have that bacteria.

I was sitting at a dental conference with a, he was the dental director of Delta Dental in Washington at the time.

And he got up and he said, I don't floss in front of all these dental hygienists.

And there were audible gasps from that audience.

Like, this guy's a dentist, and he doesn't floss what he's talking about.

But he's like, look, I don't have the risk factors that make this a necessary intervention for me.

And I think if people can start to understand their own risk factors, it makes a huge difference in evaluating what treatments are right for them.

So often they think, oh, I need to brush and I need to floss because that's what my dentist told me.

Yeah, those are great hygiene habits.

You probably should do those kinds of things.

But understanding what's really behind your cavities is interesting.

Like I had a guy message me on Instagram one day.

He's like, I get cavities all the time, but I'm on keto.

I'm not eating sugar.

I don't understand what's going on.

And I messaged back and I said, any chance you're drinking electrolytes regularly?

He's like, oh, yeah, for sure.

Full of citric acid.

I was like, oh, yeah.

I was like, what, what electrolytes are you using?

Flip over the ingredients.

The very first ingredient is citric acid.

Wow.

So that is working to dissolve his teeth and he thinks he he thinks he's being very healthy i'm i'm consuming water throughout the day and it's got the electrolytes my body needs in it yes it does but it also has citric acid that's dissolving your teeth as it comes into contact

so what what companies use a lot of citric acid well so you know any of them that are flavored i mean that's how they get that kind of fruity flavor is oh so that natural

naturally flavored stuff so yeah i mean if you can do an electrolyte that has no flavoring you don't have to worry about that same risk but i mean i understand the desire to have flavoring.

I mean, we use one that does.

Yeah, so when I use an electrolyte drink, I don't mind that there's citric acid in there.

I just pair it with meal times and I follow it with a xylitol gum to get my saliva going.

I don't think you need to avoid all acid or all sugar.

Like, we want food that tastes good.

You want to live your life, and so you don't want to live your life around preventing a cavity.

What you want to do is live your life and then know the right intervention so that the risk factors that are present in your world can be

overcome by the choices you make.

Well, and I think that's what's so incredible about xyletol is when you know how to use it, you know, you can be a good enough brusher and avoid cavities.

You can be a good enough flosser, you know, good enough at avoiding sugar and acid, and you're going to be fine.

And so what's really incredible is if you choose xyletol gum or mints after a meal time, it gets your saliva flowing.

It off cavity-causing bacteria, and it's also going to get you back to a neutral pH faster than if you're not doing that.

And so it's just hitting all the places that you want to hit.

And it's such an easy habit to integrate that it makes it really realistic rather than trying to eat perfectly or brush perfectly.

Yeah, that's cool.

And is, are other gums similar with the health benefits or is it mainly xylitol?

Yeah, so I'm a big fan of 100% xylitol sweetened gums.

The studies show that you need enough xylitol to really have an impact.

In fact, when I first started the business, I got pushed back.

There was a study done in Montreal, Canada.

I'd say it was in the late 90s, where they showed that it didn't matter if you had a xylitol chewing gum or a sugar-free chewing gum.

And this contradicted a lot of evidence that said, no, if you get xylitol chewing gum, it really has an impact.

And so people would push back and I said, well, I want to do something.

And I plotted a graph with all the studies that looked at the dose of xylitol that they got.

And it looked like somewhere between five and six grams was the really critical dose.

So Dr.

Milgram up at the University of Washington, a number of years ago, I'd say maybe 15 years ago said, I want to do a study and see what happens if I give people three grams of xylitol, six grams of xylitol, 10 grams of xylitol each day and have them do that.

What's the threshold to really get rid of the S-mutans bacteria?

And it looked right around that six.

If you got the six grams a day, you were good to go.

And that's six of these?

That would be six of those pieces of gum.

Yep.

So two pieces three times a day is what we really recommend.

It's not doable.

That's not even that bad.

No, it's really, really easy.

But if you get one of those gums that has xylitol as one of the last ingredients, I remember looking, this was years ago, but I took a sample of Trident and I sent it off to the lab and I said, tell me how much xylitol is in here because they don't disclose that on the label.

And they came back with a minuscule quantity and I was like, okay, to get my six grams, how many pieces do I have to chew?

35 pieces, right?

That's bad.

Now that's hard.

That's something you can't do.

So you want to get a xylitol gum that's loaded up.

Yeah, that makes sense.

When it comes to brushing, the typical advice is twice a day.

Is that something you guys agree with?

Yeah, for sure.

I'd say twice a day.

Oh, sorry, you want to?

No.

So, I mean, I heard a dentist once describe it as, you know, you have these bacteria that are building up this plaque film, you know, on your teeth.

And he described it like when you make a house out of cards and you stack it up.

And as soon as you touch it, the whole house of cards falls down.

And so he said, that's really what brushing is designed to do is to kind of break up this biofilm that they've created and to break down that house of cards.

Then after you can kind of, you know, get access to those bacteria to give them the xyotol to kick them off.

And so there's a lot of benefit to the manual effort of brushing to kind of remove that plaque film.

But what most people don't realize is it's not removing acid and it's not getting rid of bad bacteria you're just breaking down their house and then they build it up again and so that's why you have to brush over and over again so it's an incredible habit it's absolutely necessary but if you've got cavities you need another tool got it so you can't brush a cavity away yes yeah and well so i i'm gonna push back on that a lot of dentists will tell you you can use fluoride you can brush on a remineralizing agent like fluoride or hydroxyapatite which will redepot

Fluoride really changes how calcium and phosphate bond together.

Normally, they bond together in a matrix called hydroxyapatite, but when fluoride is present, it's called fluoroapatite.

It's somewhat more acid resistant than hydroxyapatite.

So a lot of dentists will tell you, you can brush with enough fluoride that I can get your tooth to be acid resistant and we can solve your cavity problem that way.

The problem is we've been using fluoride as the go-to solution for 60, 70 years.

Wow.

And there's so many people still struggling with cavities.

So to me, it feels like a pretty inadequate solution, right?

Does it pair nicely with xyletol?

Yeah.

Do you need fluoride?

No.

Fluoride's Fluoride's not a necessary chemical for your teeth.

It's not a mineral that has to be deposited in your tooth structure.

And there are some real drawbacks to fluoride.

And so you'll see a lot of people online saying, no fluoride ever.

And I completely understand that.

And I personally don't use a fluoridated toothpaste.

I use no fluoride because I don't want all those neurotoxins leaching into my brain at all, right?

They've done a study, the CDC released it after a lot of pushing this last year, where if you consume or in communities where they fluoridate the water, there's an inverse correlation with IQ.

So the more fluoride that's in the water, the lower the IQ.

That's crazy.

And that's a big risk to take to avoid cavities when there's plenty of other tools available.

And I think if fluoride were really the magical cavity prevention tool, we wouldn't have so many cavities.

Like they're so prevalent that I think we really need another solution.

That's scary.

So the water has fluoride and you're washing your fruit with it, you're brushing your teeth with it, you're showering in it.

Well, and fluoride only works topically.

Like you can't ingest it and get a benefit for cavity prevention.

So if you're drinking water, it's not going to do anything.

It has to topically sit on top of the tooth to really provide a benefit.

Well, and so that's why people have fluoridated toothpaste.

And you can get enough fluoride that way.

I mean,

studies have shown when you drink fluoridated water, some of that will go on your teeth while it's going across, but you're not going to see that coming in systemically.

But it can deposit into your bones.

The way that fluoroappetite works is it's also more brittle, right?

So you don't want more brittle bones.

Too much exposure to fluoride can lead to that.

There's a lot of things out there that just cause me pause.

And I think everybody can decide for themselves what makes sense.

And there's a lot of dentists that are big fans and I completely understand it because it does make your teeth more acid resistant.

Yeah.

When I went to get a deep cleaning, it was straight fluoride everywhere.

Yeah.

When it comes to toothbrushes and toothpaste, what brands are you guys using?

Well, we use our own.

So we have two types of toothpaste that we sell.

So, and it's loaded with xylitol more than any other toothpaste I've seen.

And so you can get that exposure, you know, right as you're brushing, which is great.

Oh, yeah.

Switch over.

I try to use all-natural toothpaste.

Yeah, so the epic one, you know, all-natural is one of those terms that's not super well-defined.

It's not a regulated term, right?

So we try and keep out all the garbage ingredients.

We like we don't put sodium lauryl sulfate in there, which is a foaming agent, for example,

because it can be harsh and it can cause irritation to your gums and other challenges.

So yeah, I definitely recommend getting a high xylitol dose one.

We love, obviously, ours.

For toothbrushes, I swap between two.

It depends if I need a manual brush or if I'm going to use my electric.

I have an oral BIO for my electric toothbrush, and that's solid.

The things I like about it, it buzzes every 30 seconds.

So it gives you a hint to focus on that.

And so, you know, oh, two minutes, I can be done with my whole mouth.

But if I just do it in a minute and I do 30 seconds top, 30 seconds bottom, it gives me like a frowny face.

And I'm like, I don't need more shame.

There's so much shame in the dental industry.

So I get a little annoyed at it.

And the other reason I don't love it is because of the head head that it comes with.

It comes with a pretty strong

bristled, not hard bristle, not soft bristle tooth.

And you want soft bristle because you want to be soft to your gums.

The other reason is sometimes I use a manual toothbrush just to make sure I'm getting up under my gums regularly.

And so for that, I use Dr.

Plot because it's a unique toothbrush.

It's got flossing bristles, so they extend beyond the middle.

Yeah.

They're really long.

They're very small.

And his is made with silver.

So

it's got nanosilver infused into the bristles, which gives it a naturally antimicrobial effect.

A lot of people don't realize, oh, that toothbrush that I just took out of my mouth is now covered in bacteria.

That's cool.

Well, when you store an antimicrobial toothbrush with the silver in it, the bacteria goes away pretty quickly, certainly before you use it the next time.

Nice.

Were you guys scared of dentists growing up?

Because that's a common fear people have these days.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, I think I got so fed up in my early 20s that I was like, what is the point of going to the dentist?

He's just going to say, I have a cavity.

I seem to have no way to solve it.

They're not doing anything to help me.

And I just was fed up.

So I gave up for a couple of years and didn't see the dentist.

And so then, you know, when I met Donald and found out about epic xyletol gum and mints, you know, it was an absolute game changer for me because I was like, oh my gosh, I didn't think there was a way out of this problem.

I thought I was just doomed to have cavities forever and it sucked and I didn't know what to do.

And then now I have a way out of this where I can completely change that.

And so being able to use Xyletol regularly, like I've completely left cavities in the past.

It's been years since I've had a cavity.

Nice.

Yeah, I used to be scared of them.

Yeah, I think a lot of people are scared of the dentist.

I mean, a couple of things happen.

A lot of times when you go in and the hygienist cleans your teeth and you're sitting there and you're waiting for the dentist to come in, you feel like you get a grade.

Did I do well?

Did I pass?

Did I fail?

And I think nobody likes to get, oh, I got a failing grade.

I got a cavity.

And a lot of times I've seen dentists with shame kind of attached to it.

You're doing a bad job.

It's your fault.

You're the problem.

And nobody wants that.

So I think you want to find a dentist that doesn't promote that kind of shame.

And then if you address a cavity problem early, it's way better than if you wait too long.

So I'd encourage anybody to go into the dentist, even if you're afraid and you think you've got a cavity, go see it now because it can only get worse, right?

Going untreated is just going to cause problems.

So you got to, you've got to put an intervention in that can stop the progress of what's going on.

But I think the best thing you can do is find a hygienist you really like because you're going to spend the most time with your dental hygienists.

And some are really nice and some are not so nice.

And so I think you can always request at your office to get a new dental hygienist next time you come.

And when you find one you like, ask to book with them every single time because they can give incredible tips like my hygienist that i love um she pointed out a place where she's like hey when you're brushing i think your tongue is fighting the toothbrush and you're not getting in this particular area and so that was super useful and so they have a ton of knowledge to share and so you just have to find the right ones and they'll help you solve rather than shame you yeah how do you guys feel about brushing the tongue because i started gagging and i I just don't do it, honestly.

But I've heard there's people that do it.

So yeah, I don't typically brush my tongue, but I do use a tongue scraper.

So it's a metal head, right?

A little bit of an oval, and you just pull it back and scrape it off.

What that does is that removes bacteria that tends to build up on your tongue.

Not everybody has, again, that particular bacteria that they want to remove or that they need to deal with.

So not everybody needs to do it, but it's a good habit.

If you struggle with bad breath, certainly something

you should consider doing.

There's some people that have some bad breath.

Right?

Yeah,

there are.

Does the gum help with that too?

It will not change that part of the oral microbiome to shift that bacteria.

Will it cover it up like any other gum with flavor?

Certainly, yeah, absolutely.

Wow, I didn't know bad breath came from the tongue.

That's interesting.

Typically, I mean, it can come from more places than that.

But if somebody struggles with bad breath, that's one of the first places I would look.

Yeah.

So what do you guys think sets Epic Dental apart from other dentists?

Because you guys seem to be doing very innovative stuff.

Yeah, so I'll start out first from other dentists.

We're not dentists, so that sets us apart for sure.

But from other people playing in the dental industry, we've really chosen to focus on bringing products to market that help people focus on the root cause of what's going on in their mouth.

So often we see people slap the tried and true things on and pretend like that's a real solution.

That's why when you show up, so many of your dentists say, well, just do a better job brushing and flossing.

Maybe you won't have to worry about this.

I struggle so much with that.

You want a dentist that's going to ask you the questions that help you figure out what's going on, what your particular risk factors are, so that they can make recommendations that help you change it.

Just like I did for that guy who's like, hey, I don't eat sugar.

I have no idea what's going on.

I was like, any chance you're drinking an acidic thing throughout the day?

And he's like, oh yeah, that electrolyte thing.

And now he has a root cause that he can solve instead of, I don't know, just do a better job brushing, man.

Yeah, yeah, that's true.

That's some practical advice rather than you have a cavity.

brush your teeth more right yeah well because i think the status quo is not working for most people being told to brush and floss and avoid sugar that is not working for people and if it was working people would not have so many cavities and so i think people need an actual real solution and so that's what we're all about at Epic is trying to fight against the status quo that's broken and say there are better things out there that are backed by incredible scientific research.

People just don't know about it.

And if they have the right information and the right tools, they can take control of their oral health.

Yeah, certain dentist practices just seem so outdated.

Even the machine they use, it's so uncomfortable getting those x-rays.

Right.

And the ones where you have to like bite down and like

sucks.

Like I feel like they should use AI or something to see if you have a cavity.

Well, and what's funny is new dentists coming out of dental school, they learn about xyletol.

They understand the science behind how it works.

And so, new dentists absolutely love xyletol and they recommend it to their patients.

Oh, nice.

But if you're seeing an older dentist that's been practicing for a long time, he might not have been taught that.

He might have some old techniques and some old information he's working on, depending on how hard he's worked to stay up to date.

I feel like most of them are old school, honestly.

Right.

Yeah, that's scary.

I mean, a lot of dentists, so dentistry is really designed to restore function of teeth, right?

That's what dentists are great at.

They know how to drill and fill.

They know how to prep a crown and make it work so that your teeth can fit together the way they're supposed to.

And you can end up with a great looking smile and hopefully

a healthy smile that gives you all the function you want.

But they don't spend nearly as much time on prevention because they're not incentivized to.

The insurance companies don't pay for it, right?

They don't charge the patients for education and prevention.

And so they're going to focus where the money is.

It's natural in any given industry for that to be the case.

So I don't fault them for what they do.

I just think people should understand that their own health is their responsibility.

It's not their dentist's responsibility.

And although you want to lean on your dentist and use your dentist as a tool or your dental hygienist as a tool, that's all that it is.

It's someone else that can help you solve problems.

But you've got to own your own health.

Interesting.

Yeah, it's not preventative.

So it's similar to doctors almost where it's just fixing, not preventing.

Exactly.

Yeah.

That's cool.

What's it like been balancing family and business life?

Because

I've heard some interesting stories there.

It's intense.

Yeah, it is.

So we have three young kids.

Wow.

And our oldest is nine right now.

Our youngest is five.

And we're just coming out of the years where, you know, you're changing diapers and you're waking up through the middle of the night.

And it doesn't matter how much help you get.

You can't seem to stay on top of everything.

It's been fun because I was struggling in the business just by myself, running it, dealing with the challenges.

Like I have ADHD and I'm not always as organized as I should be, you know, things that are pretty typical.

My wife, on the other hand, super organized.

So I said, come help me in the business.

And she is very much the opposite of me.

She brings the structure.

She'll lead the team the way that they need to be led.

And it's been really awesome to have her there.

And I'm super grateful for that.

It's been great.

But it's been a challenge because maybe we both need to be at the business at the same time.

And who's the best?

There's always a fire somewhere.

And you're like, what's that going to look like?

Do we have a nanny that helps with the kids, which we've done before?

But

I married her because I wanted her influence on my kids.

I don't want the nanny's influence on my kids.

Right.

You know what I mean?

It's a tricky balance there.

There's a lot to juggle.

But what's funny, the way we started working together was Donald read a book called Traction.

And then he's like, you've got to read this book.

I read it.

And it was like someone went inside of my mind and took out all of my

business principles that I absolutely believe and put it into a book.

And so, of course, I loved it.

And it talks about how, you know, most founders are like that visionary personality and they need to be paired with an integrator that's really going to, you know, make sure things are operating really well within the business.

And so we read this book and he's like, this is exactly who we are.

This is who he's built to be as a visionary.

I'm built to be an integrator.

And he's like, let's work together.

And so that started, you know, maybe like seven years ago.

Wow.

And, you know, lots of hard moments, but it's been overall amazing because I just feel like we have really complimentary skill sets.

Amazing.

So the company's been around a while.

What are some of the biggest challenges you guys have faced and lessons you've learned?

I mean, I think just getting the message out there.

And so I think that's one of the cool things about right now, just the power of social media to get people educated.

um you know because when you're a small company and you're trying to run your business as a family you know you don't always have the same marketing budget as a huge corporation and we're going up against you know colgate and all these massive corporations that have a totally different marketing budget that have failed the end consumer and so that's a lot to go up against and so spend more on their arbor day party than on

our entire marketing budget for the year you know every day and now they gross me up yeah and so having you know tick tock and instagram where we can educate people for, you know, almost free for them to be able to understand what's actually happening in their mouth has been huge.

Yeah, that's powerful because people really don't know much about the prevention side of things.

I feel like.

Yeah, I mean, I remember the way I learned it was in elementary school.

A dental hygienist comes in.

They bring in the little plaque disclosing tablets that you chew on and you can see all of the purple all over your mouth.

Oh, here are the spots you're missing.

So do a better job brushing and make sure you brush, stay away from the sugar.

That is literally everything I learned.

Right.

And I struggled with cavities throughout all of my teen years.

And it wasn't until I came across xylitol that I was like, wait, there's, there's an actual solution.

You can do something different here.

And, and I kind of went all in.

Wow, I'm so excited to start eating this.

Yeah.

Well, I think the big thing you'll notice after using it for maybe like a week or two, your teeth are going to feel so slippery smooth.

Like we have people leave reviews all the time that talk about how it feels like they just came from a dental cleaning because their teeth feel that clean.

And it's because you're disrupting the bacteria that are laying down the plaque film.

So you're not going to get that like sweaters on your teeth kind of feeling.

Did you guys have braces?

You guys both have really straight teeth.

Yeah, I did.

Yeah, I did not have braces.

Oh, you didn't?

No, but I also have six veneers on the front.

Probably something I wouldn't do again either.

This was before I dove in the dental industry.

Deeply, I got veneers put on because when I was a child, I fell in the jungle gym with my permanent teeth, and I've got a nice triangle between the two of them.

And I'd had composite fillings there for a long time.

And the composite just needed to be replaced all the time.

So I asked for veneers, but veneers increase your risk for periodontal disease, for example, because the way the crown is fitted over the actual tooth, you end up with a ridge underneath your gum line, and it's a perfect place for bacteria to build up.

It's one of the reasons that I have to be religious about using my water flosser, whereas my wife's kind of like, I don't need to be as religious about it, right?

Because I have that risk factor.

So these six here, they're just, they're...

They're caps, basically.

Interesting.

Because I know friends of mine that have gotten veneers, and I've never heard of that side of it.

I don't think a lot of them think about it.

I remember even leaving the office.

They're like, you need to make sure you're doing a really good job flossing.

That was lit.

That was it.

They didn't provide any more information, right?

It's when I dove in deeper to understand what was going on that I was like, oh, here's why I have to do a better job flossing.

Now I need to take this seriously because I understood my own risk factors.

Yeah.

So when someone has a cavity on the inside of the tooth, you pretty much have to get a procedure, right?

Yeah, I really, that, that's really consistent with the best practice in the industry.

You need to get a filling when it's gone deeper than the enamel surface.

I've seen some dentists say, hey, you can remineralize and cure a cavity that's that deep.

But I think the evidence is at best anecdotal.

And the problem is, once you drill into a tooth, that tooth is never the same.

You have lost so much function, and you're likely going to have to do more work on that tooth because dental work doesn't last a lifetime.

Well, most people don't know that.

I mean, I thought for years when I was getting a feeling, like, okay, this is how my tooth is going to be forever.

And then later down the road, I found out, oh, I have a cavity beneath that filling, which was so frustrating to me.

And that happens all the time where either they don't take enough out or there's just nooks and crannies where the bacteria can go live.

And so, I mean, there's always a risk anytime you drill into the tooth.

Wow.

And you said it loses function after you drill in?

It loses.

Yeah, I mean,

they're restoring the function.

They're compromising the tooth's ability to heal itself naturally, for example.

You're exposing it to new risk factors.

So when you have a filling and a natural tooth, you're going to necessarily have a margin and you can put a bonding agent there between the filling and the tooth.

But that doesn't mean bacteria can't sometimes seep in there.

Bacteria are tiny, they can fit in all kinds of places.

Yeah, and so the doctor does a lot to prevent that from happening for you, but no filling's perfect.

And so they've done studies, like Delta Dental did in the early 2000s, and I think I've seen updated numbers, but they were like, hey, if you get a single filling in a tooth, you're going to spend another $2,000

over the lifetime on that tooth

after the first filling.

That's crazy.

But that's early 2000 numbers.

I think the current numbers are somewhere like 4,500,000.

Yeah, yeah,

we all know what that's like, right?

So it's definitely come up a lot since then.

Is there any upcoming dental technology that's exciting you guys, or is this still pretty old school from what you're saying?

So I think I see a lot more people talking about solutions that are different than fluoride.

And that I like.

So theobromine, hydroxyapatite, xylitol, these are all different ways to approach similar problems where what you're trying to to do is think about how can I improve the remineralization capabilities of what's going on in my mouth while reducing the challenges with acid.

But I haven't seen anything that's like a game changer.

You know, I see people talking about probiotics, and I think those could be useful to change your oral flora.

There's a lot of things that are helpful, but there's no silver bullet that I've seen coming out.

Oh, I haven't heard probiotics with dental health relationships.

Because I drink kombucha a lot, so that's interesting.

So you want to get probiotics that are designed for the mouth.

They're somewhat different than the probiotics that are for the gut.

So you're looking for healthy strains of bacteria that can come into your mouth and fill in the ecosystem so that they effectively crowd out the bad bacteria.

Going back to the fruits, the pineapple and the grapefruit, what other fruits or foods cause?

Anything that's acidic, you can basically assume it is.

Anything that's sour, you can assume it's acidic.

It's sour, okay.

Yeah.

Well, an acid is part of what makes food taste so amazing.

And so, I mean, like salad dressings, all kinds of fruits and vegetables, vinegar, like there's so many things.

And so I think the idea is to not completely change what you're eating, but to know how to handle it afterwards.

So if you make sure you're eating, you know, in mealtimes, you're not snacking all throughout the day, you're not sipping on acidic drinks all throughout the day.

You have those in a small period of time.

Then after you rinse with water and then you follow with xylitol, like that's going to change everything and you don't have to change what you're eating.

Yeah, I like that.

Yeah, it's a good rule of thumb just to balance it.

You don't have to necessarily cut it out.

Just eat something offset.

it yeah i think most people are worried that i have to be perfect to have great health and i'm not a big fan of perfection dental care needs to be easy enough and realistic enough to drive results and that's why i love the gum so much it's like pop two pieces in after your meals and you're in a way better place than you would be if you're just letting that vinegar or coke sit on your teeth yeah where can people find out more about the products you guys sell Yeah, epicdental.com is an easy place to learn more about the science.

You can follow us on social media at epic.dental.

We're always, every day we're putting up a video where we're talking about stuff that's useful that way.

Both Instagram and TikTok.

Cool.

Yeah, we'll link it in the description.

Anything else you guys want to close off with?

I mean, I would say, like, if you're someone that has struggled with cavities, that does not have to be your story forever.

You can absolutely take control and it's easy to do.

It's not complicated.

Anyone can understand the science behind it and you don't have to live like this.

There is a way out.

I love that.

You're inspiring people with cavities.

Thanks so much, John.

Check out Epic Dental, guys.

Yeah, thanks for coming on, guys.

And we'll see you tomorrow.