Mark Sisson On Selling Primal Kitchen for $200M, Importance of Grounding & Peluva | DSH #218

You've tried out all sorts of diets, right?

Right.

What have you seen work?

The first one to say there's no right diet right now.

There's like the holy grail of fitness, which in my book is metabolic flexibility.

When you develop this metabolic flexibility, you're able to burn off your stored body fat and arrive at an ideal body composition.

Welcome back to the show, guys.

I'm your host, as always, Sean Kelly.

Got a great guest for you guys today.

Mark Sisson, how's it going man it's going great good to see you sean i know you sent me some shoes and i've been wearing them is that your main focus that's my main focus you know i've i've been in this health and fitness gig for 30 years writing about ways in which we can uh optimize health and uh foot health has always been a uh sort of a secret passion of mine i was an endurance athlete in my 20s and one of the best marathon runners in the country.

Nice.

And but I was always sort of compromised by the shoes that were available at the time.

And as I got into other areas of health and fitness and started writing about diet and exercise and sun exposure and sleep, I sort of overlooked the whole foot health thing and shoe comfort.

And then

after I sold my last company, Primal Kitchen, I had time and I had the means

with which to start this new passion project of mine, which is to change the way the world walks.

So

my thesis is that modern footwear is horrible for feet, most modern footwear.

Most running shoes are bad for people and encourage people to run the wrong way and to develop injuries.

And

so we kind of reimagined the concept of minimalist footwear and designed a shoe that's foot-shaped, that is wide but thin, flat, flexible,

kind of combines its best elements of the prior efforts at minimalist footwear into one modern approach that we think also looks pretty double.

Nice.

Yeah, foot health is one of those things that isn't taught about, isn't talked about.

No, it's like, as we say, foot health is the new sleep.

Sleep was the big thing

last year and a couple of years ago.

But we think foot health is this new thing.

Look, your feet are your connection to the ground and how you move around this earth starts with your contact with the ground.

And it requires that your toes individually sort of articulate and feel the surface of the ground and be in a position to inform your brain how to land.

Every time you take a step forward,

the sensory input into your foot should tell your brain how to bend the ankle, how to flex the knee, how to torque the hip,

how to

bend certain muscles in certain ways to absorb the shock.

And yet modern footwear bypasses all that information with big, thick, stiff, cushioned

heels and soles that kind of...

They sound good and they sound like you're walking on air and walking on a cloud.

But over time, they actually create problems with a lot of shit.

The amount of times I've rolled my ankle is, I can't even count.

Well, and you roll your ankle because it's not strong.

Because if you don't spend time barefoot, then you, or in minimalist shoes, then your feet never develop.

The small muscles of your feet never get a chance to get strong.

And the toes don't get a chance to articulate, and the big toe, in particular, to get strong enough to push off with the right sort of gait.

And so you wind up with these

misshapened feet.

I mean, people talk about bunions and plantar fashion problems and all these other things.

But rolling an an ankle is a common issue with somebody who's worn stiff-soled shoes for a long time and has weak ankles because they just haven't used the muscles in their feet.

Dude, I didn't realize how weak my ankles were until they had me started doing stretches and PT for it.

I'm like, oh my God, I'm just shaking standing on one leg.

Yeah.

It's pathetic.

Well, I mean, you know, it's pathetic and yet it's a, you know, it should be an aha moment.

Like, this is, this is something I need to deal with.

And as, look, you're a young guy.

As you get older,

that shit gets worse.

That's even worse.

Yeah.

So I'm 23 rolling my ankle every time I play basketball because they're so weird.

It's not good.

Yeah.

So I started walking around barefoot, and it helped a lot.

Yeah.

And again, I sent you some shoes.

And if you spend some time in them, and, you know, I hike now.

I was a career runner.

I ran, you know, 100 miles a week for seven years in my career.

I was all about the running.

And then I realized that running is...

We're really not designed to run that way.

Yeah, we're designed to run a little bit in a sprint, but we're mostly designed to walk.

And so now I spend, you know, most of my sort of aerobic time walking, hiking in the woods, or walking even on pavement.

But you have to walk the right way.

You have to be in a position to optimize your gait and strengthen your feet and legs and your entire kinetic chain while you're doing it.

Otherwise,

it's almost a waste of time.

Absolutely.

You ever see those professional speedwalk races?

Oh, yeah.

It's crazy.

No,

people can speedwalk almost as fast as people can run.

I can see that.

I mean, most people can't.

What's interesting is, you know, you think about how fast

walking is and it's not that fast, but most people can't run, cannot run twice as fast as they walk.

Twice as fast.

You know, so if you walk a 16-minute mile, most people can't run an eight-minute mile for any length of time.

Wow.

Yeah.

Right?

Eight minutes was always easy for me.

Yeah, well, same, but, you know, we're skinny dudes.

You know, but for most people, you know, people who are, I think I read the other day, the average time for a marathon is four hours and 40 minutes.

And that's 26 miles.

Yeah, that's like, you know, that's 10 minute miles.

10 minute miles for 26 miles.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's pretty slow.

Yeah.

So anyway, I don't want to demean people who run marathons.

I'm a runner, too.

Yeah, but

you get the fact that

if you understand that

walking does not create injuries, running creates injuries.

Walking doesn't create injuries.

You can walk, you know, pretty much as far as you want, as long as you want, and you won't get injured.

In fact, most runners recover from their injuries by walking.

Right.

You know what I mean?

And so as soon as you start running again, and particularly if you're a heel striker,

which is not the way to run, we were not.

Where are you supposed to land now?

You're supposed to land when you run.

Proper running form is to run on the midfoot.

And if, again, if you're a a thin person who has good running technique and good running abilities, then that comes naturally.

But the problem with running shoes for most people is these thick, thick, thick soles encourage people to heel strike because you don't feel anything.

You don't feel anything immediately, but then

over time, all of that energy goes up to your hips.

And so people

don't get foot problems, but they get maybe ankle problems or knee problems or lower back problems as a result of bypassing all this information.

You know, like when you run barefoot, if you run barefoot on concrete, your body automatically tells you, you know, your brain tells you how to land.

You land softly.

You run quietly.

You run on your tiptoes.

There's no way you could run.

You could heel plant

barefoot on concrete.

You'd stop after three steps.

So that's the ideal way to run is midfoot.

But these modern running shoes sort of, again, they just don't encourage that and they encourage heel striking.

So we're trying to change all that, John.

So as a former professional runner, you're basically advocating against running.

I mean, it sounds like that, doesn't it?

And I am.

I'm advocating against it for those people who probably biomechanically or physically should not run.

I mean people who are 30 or 40 pounds overweight probably should not run a marathon.

And if they do, they sh you know, I'll train you once.

You could say you did it and ran a marathon.

But it's much more physically appropriate to be doing

walking or hiking long distances that way, particularly if you're intending to lose weight.

Like running is actually not a good way to lose weight if if you're somebody who's overweight.

It's a horrible way to lose weight.

Yeah.

Well,

because

the calories that you burn in whatever workout you did, the brain kind of goes, hey, hey, man, we just burned off 600 calories.

We got to eat.

We got to replace that.

And so

there's no mechanism by which you can run off all of the calories and then not eat them.

and not consume them, which is why you see over time, you see over years, over decades, you see people who have been running a long time and still have the same 20 or 30 pounds to lose.

Because it's mostly about diet at that point.

Yeah, so let's dive into that because you've tried out all sorts of diets, right?

Right.

What have you seen work?

Well, so

I've seen a lot of things work.

So there's no, I would say, the first one to say there's no right diet, right?

There's no, but there are,

there's like the holy grail.

of fitness, which in my book is metabolic flexibility.

You develop a metabolic flexibility.

And what that means is that's the ability of of the body to burn for energy whatever substrate happens to be available.

It could be the fat on your body, the body fat.

Could be the glycogen in your muscles.

Could be the fat on your plate of food.

Could be the carbohydrates on your plate of food.

Could be the glucose in your bloodstream.

It could be the ketones that your liver makes in the absence of glucose.

When you develop this metabolic flexibility,

you're able to burn off your stored body fat and arrive at an ideal body composition.

How do you do that?

Well, metabolic flexibility, first of of all, you have to be good at burning fat.

Most people are good at storing fat, but they're not that good at burning fat.

And that's partly because their whole life they've been eating a very carbohydrate-rich diet.

And the body tends to want to burn off the carbohydrates first.

It doesn't want to burn the fat.

Body looks at fat and says, you know, this is an emergency fuel, and we better not use it, you know, on a whim.

We should probably be burning off the readily available carbohydrates.

Well, our diets are so

carbohydrate

that people never tap into that ability to burn fat.

So what we do in a lot of instances when developing metabolic flexibility, like the keto diet, for instance, or the carnivore diet, are two examples of where you withhold carbohydrates.

And then the body sort of has to go, well, if I'm not going to get any carbohydrates and I'm not going to have any glucose and I'm not going to store any glycogen, I better learn how to burn fat.

And we have this information in our genes.

Everybody has the information on how to burn fat.

It's just just that if you never develop that skill, like any other skill, then you continually add fat over a lifetime and you never burn off the stored body fat.

So this creation of metabolic flexibility would say, okay, if I withhold carbohydrates either by eating a keto diet or a carnivore diet, or if I skip meals, or if I...

you know, if I if I intermittently fast, which is another way of going long periods of time without taking in carbohydrate, then the body builds this metabolic machinery to become more efficient at burning fat and to become more efficient at using ketones as a fuel for the brain.

So it's an amazing sort of skill that we can develop in this arena of metabolic flexibility.

And once you have that,

then things like appetite and hunger and cravings, they dissipate because

you have those hunger, cravings, and you have that appetite because the brain thinks that you're running out of fuel.

So it's all mental.

So

when your body is able to access these other energy sources, then there's no frantic message from the brain.

We have to eat.

We have to eat.

The brain goes, hey,

I'm burning off body fat.

This is great.

I'm burning the ketones that my liver makes.

This is amazing.

And I don't need to eat.

And so

it's not a problem, but one of the things that people say in terms of developing metabolic flexibility is sometimes they go, oh, dude, I haven't eaten for a day.

I forgot to eat because I wasn't hungry and I didn't need to eat.

and so maybe I should eat.

You know, that's a great, again, a great, it's a very empowering, a very empowering place to find yourself.

I think I might have developed it by accident because I used to eat breakfast every day.

And at first it was tough to stop.

I would get the message from my brain to eat.

But then when I started intermittent fasting, you know, that's the first thing that goes for a lot of people.

Yeah.

Intermittent fasting.

You wake up in the morning and go.

I'm not hungry.

Like I have this energy and I don't feel like eating.

Exactly.

And if I don't feel like eating, then really, why should I eat?

Because it's kind of, you know, it's kind of wasteful to eat.

It wastes time.

I mean, breakfast takes time.

It takes time, yeah.

You know, and again, if my brain is firing on all cylinders because I'm using ketones and I'm burning fat for my muscular activity, then that's a beautiful state to be in.

That's also a place where most people are undergoing a certain type of...

of internal repair called autophagy, where the body starts to do some house cleaning and repairs damaged cells and takes the opportunity of not having any food around to combust or burn up damaged fats and proteins and use them as fuel and get rid of them so

they're not causing scar tissue or precancerous situations.

Wow.

And, you know, growing up, they're teaching us to eat three meals a day.

Breakfast is the most important meal.

Do you think Americans are just eating too much in general?

That's a great question.

And

the answer is 100% yes.

Like, I think everybody eats too much for the most part.

I mean, we can talk about the, you know, the 1 or 2% of us in this field who know exactly how much it takes to get through a day.

You know, I think most people look at life because we have access to so much food, they look at life like, okay,

what's the most amount of food I can eat and not gain weight?

Right?

What's the biggest meal I can order here and not feel gluttonous or not feel bad about myself?

What's the biggest piece of cheesecake that I can have and not not feel bad?

And so people go through life thinking, okay, I'm going to eat as much as I can.

I want a fast metabolism so I can burn it off so I can eat more.

And years ago, I did a thought experiment.

I said, well, you know, that's really interesting,

but what if you flip that on its head and you said, what's the least amount of food I can eat and maintain muscle mass or even still build muscle mass, have all the energy I want.

not get sick, and most importantly, not be hungry.

Because hunger kind of ruins everything.

So if you ask that question, what's the least amount of food I can eat and maintain muscle mass to have energy, not get sick,

it turns out it's probably 30 or 40% fewer calories than you think you needed to get through life.

Now, what's the difference between that 30%?

Some people, it never manifests itself as an increased weight gain.

They just sort of, their body revs up their metabolism and they burn it off through what they call the thermogenic effective food, or their body just temperature runs at a higher level because

the body's always trying to burn off these calories.

Some people store that excess as body fat, but insidiously over time.

So it might be a half pound, a pound a year, but in 10 years, that's 10 pounds.

In 30 years, that's 30 pounds.

Yeah, so I think people generally eat too much food, and I think they'd be surprised if they did this little experiment at

how little food they need to not just survive, but thrive and feel good.

And again, if you get hungry, forget it, it's not working.

So the whole thing is how do you control hunger?

And you control hunger by developing this metabolic flexibility.

How long would you say it takes to develop that on average?

I would say that 80% of the results come in the first six weeks.

And then because you've gotten such fast results, the rest of it takes longer.

Maybe another six months to get...

to get another 10 or 15%.

But look, 80% of

that benefit coming in just six weeks of doing that.

I mean, I say 50% of the benefit comes in the first three weeks.

Just being really

intentive about your strategy and sticking to it and paying attention to the signals and understanding when you're actually hungry versus like when you said you were a breakfast guy for so long,

part of that was you were just habituated to breakfast.

It wasn't even that you...

needed to eat.

I didn't even like breakfast.

Right.

It was just that you were habituated.

And it was just, okay, that's what I do.

Like a chore almost.

Yeah, yeah.

But if you, you know, if you break down what it takes to maintain muscle mass, to maintain energy, it's not

like 120 grams of protein a day, either for someone like you or for someone like me.

It's not even, it's not 180 for anybody, but it's probably not less than 80 for anybody.

So, you know, that 100, 120 grams a day, well, that's only 480 calories of protein.

There's usually some fat attached to the protein if you're having eggs or steak or something like that.

And then if you're cutting back on grains, if you're not eating bread, pasta, cereal, you know, cookies, cakes, candies, desserts, soft drinks,

then you're kind of relegated, I would say, to eating fruits and vegetables.

But you can't get a lot of

carbs eating copious amounts of fruits and vegetables.

And then the rest, you fill in the rest with some healthy fats, some butter, some olive oil, some avocado oil, things like that.

And you've handled all of the nutrient requirements, all the macros you need.

And it's not that, you know, maybe for some people, it's around 2,000 calories.

Certainly not 3,600 or 4,200 calories, which is what I see people consuming here at the buffets in one meal.

In one meal.

I've been guilty of that before.

So you're not a fan of that saying where one gram of protein for every body pound or whatever?

Well, but if you said one gram for every pound of lean mass, you know,

in my case, that might be 140 grams.

Okay, that's in that same arena.

And if you take a, you know,

if we take the outliers like the 300-pound bodybuilder that has 2%, you know, fat,

of which there are very few in this world, you know, then maybe 300 grams a day is appropriate.

But for most people, it fits in that range of like...

minimum of 80 to a maximum of 150.

And if you settle in around on an average of 120 grams a day, for most people,

I think you'd be well served.

I was only giving that example to say, even at 120 grams a day, that's only 480 calories.

Right.

You know, and then if you fill in the rest with some vegetables,

you're not going to eat 600 calories worth of vegetables.

No, that's too much.

You know, and then what?

The rest is fat.

And the fat comes from either the fat in the meat

or the oils in the dressings or the butter that you cook the food in or whatever.

Yeah.

So we've talked about diet, talked about benefits of walking.

What about sleep?

You know,

I'm a big fan of sleep.

I'm 70 years old, and I have never pulled an all-nighter in my entire life.

That's impressive.

Including college, including going to, you know, clubs in my youth, including rages and raves and everything else.

I cannot abide not sleeping.

It's just not in my DNA.

And I think it's a survival mechanism that a lot of people kind of bypass and overlook.

And so I and I'll, you know, I will be forced to stay up late sometimes, like, you know, 1:30, 2.30, something like that, maybe at the max.

But the problem is I wake up at the same time every day, you know, so I don't get the eight or nine hours of sleep that

I would like to get.

So that's,

I think sleep is

a really, you know, and it's obviously you've been reading a lot about it in the last five years.

It's the new, again, it's the new big thing.

But no, foot health is the new big thing by surpassing sleep.

But sleep is critically important.

For the longest time, you know, it was overlooked.

But I think people are, you know, recognizing that.

And it's good.

It's good to have the, you know, the excuse that it's okay to sleep.

It's okay to go to bed early and maybe sleep in a little bit.

It's so dumb.

I remember in high school, you were like considered cool if you only slept like four or five hours.

Yeah.

It's like, oh, you slept at 9 p.m.

You're a dude.

Yeah, Exactly.

Yeah.

So I used to get hate on.

But I want to dive into Primal Kitchen.

I mean, built that to a $200 million company in three and a half years and then exited.

Yeah.

I mean, that's some of the fastest growth I've ever heard of.

Well, you know, it was, it's a 40-year overnight success story.

So for 40 years, I've been writing about diet and exercise and health and fitness.

And I started Mark's Daily Apple, my blog in 2006,

where I really focused on diet.

I mean, I talked about sun exposure and sleep and play and lifting weights

and cardio and all the other things, but it was really kind of focused on food.

And over the years,

I was writing, every Friday we'd have a recipe about how to make your own whatever, and usually

it was some

sauce or some dressing.

Because what I realized from the work that I did and the investigation into the primal blueprint and the way of eating, which was basically real food, natural food, when you get rid of pies, cakes, candies, cookies, grains, pasta, cereal, and you come down to meat, fish, fowl, eggs, nuts, seeds, vegetables, a little bit of fruit, maybe some starchy tubers, it's not a big list of food.

And what makes the difference is the sauces, the dressings, the toppings, the methods of preparation.

That's what makes this way of eating sustainable.

And then there are infinite ways to make them, which are amazing, but you have to incorporate these herbs and these spices.

And then I realized

we were offering up a recipe

every Friday.

I even published a book in 2011 called The Primal Blueprint, Healthy Sauces, Dressings, and Toppings.

And I thought, this is going to crush.

And I was a publisher, so I printed 50,000 copies.

Because I had sold 100,000 copies of the Primal Blueprint, the earlier book.

I'm like, we're riding the crest here.

And I sold like 6,000 copies.

Yeah.

And I realized, people don't want to make these sauces and and dressings.

They want to buy them.

And so in 2014, I thought, you know, this is kind of crazy.

People get that they want to eat clean, but there are no, you go to the grocery store and there are no clean condiments and there are no clean mayonnaises and there are no clean salad, really clean salad dressings.

I mean, Newman's Own, which was sort of the, you know, the, I would say the cleanest of the offerings at the time.

You know, you go and open up the, you look at the, the ingredients and it would, for like extra virgin olive oil dressing, and that was like the fourth type of oil after canola, soybean, and like, dude, you know, it's like all the seed oils.

So

the timing of Primal Kitchen was right because we, this community, had spent the prior five years talking about seed oils and how bad they were, talking about the benefits of avocado oil, of extra virgin olive oil.

and the good oils and differentiating them.

And so when we launched our first product in March of 2015, it was avocado oil-based mayonnaise.

And it just took off.

It was incredible, the growth that we had.

You know,

it was just one product.

And that first year, you know, we projected that maybe we'd sell $300,000 worth of product and we sold a million and seven.

Nice.

And so going into the next year, we're like, this is, it's going crazy.

We're like, what can we do this year?

And we started adding a few salad dressings and we started adding some more different flavors of mayonnaise.

And we're like, are we being greedy if we predict that we're going to do 6 million this year?

And we did 6 million by June.

Yeah.

So then we pretty much, you know, I think we did 11 something that year.

And so it grew rapidly.

Now, one of the reasons

that I sold it was I realized that that kind of growth

is not sustainable for a startup that doesn't have access to a lot of capital, a lot of the the resources, like the distribution resources and things like that.

So by the end of 2017,

we knew, my co-founder and I knew that we were going to be selling it.

And so we started looking at who the partners would be.

And then by maybe April of 2018,

we put it out,

we didn't put it out to bid, but we started to really hone in on

who our best partner would be.

And Kraft Heinz became that partner.

And it's been amazing.

I mean, they acquired us January 3rd of 2019

and have been nothing but supportive.

We kept the entire team.

We kept the headquarters in Oxnard, California.

We have all of our same co-packers and manufacturers.

We buy the ingredients the same way.

You know, Kraft Heinz is a large company that acquires different brands.

And they acquired us because they saw that we were a leader in that whole area of better for you sauces and dressings and toppings.

And my mission was to change the way the world eats.

Nice.

That goes back to Mark's Daily Apple, 2006.

I just want to change the way the world eats, whether by information, education,

by seminars, by books, by

podcasts.

And ultimately, it was through a food company that got more and more people interested in better-for-you condiments.

And they read the label and go, oh my God, I didn't realize that my other ketchup had high fructose corn syrup and all this other crap in it.

And this one is, you know, quote, clean.

Yeah, man.

I'm glad you got people off seed oils because they're so bad for you.

Well, they're still on them.

I mean, you know, we still see a lot of people who haven't gotten that message yet.

I meant on your products, but yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, yeah, certainly on ours.

That was always the directive was, you know, no bad ingredients, no harmful ingredients.

And I'm happy to hear Krafted and make you change the ingredients because.

This was an assumption that people had.

Big food is going to come in.

I see that.

And so I got some hate

for selling out early.

But the company's grown more rapidly through them than it could have with my personal guarantees against loans, against my house,

and everything else.

Oh, you went all in.

Oh, I went all in.

Are you kidding me?

I was all in.

I was the only investor until the end of the year.

Are you self-funded?

Yeah.

So there's a point at which you go, you know,

this is pretty scary to have $10 million that I don't have,

that I owe on a line of credit because I'm buying up all the avocado oils in the world

so that somebody else doesn't get it.

Yeah.

It's crazy.

I saw this thing on Instagram.

Most avocado oils have seed oils in them.

Yeah.

Well, so that's an interesting,

there's a, UC Davis has been doing a study over the years.

They started with extra virgin olive oil, and they discovered adulterated olive oils.

And so that became a big scandal in the olive oil industry for a long time.

Wow.

We started testing our oil from day day one.

We were aware of the possibilities.

And so we've had third-party independent testing of our oils from the beginning.

And then they test not only for what they think are

adulterating oils.

So people might

cut a

walnut oil or an avocado oil or even an olive oil with safflower or much cheaper oils.

So there's a profile that

you can see on a gas chromatograph that will identify different fatty acid profiles.

And so you can sort of create, you know, see what it is that's in there and see if it matches the spec for true version of avocado oil, for instance.

But they also test for

peroxide value, which is a measure of rancidity.

So oils that have been

opened and left open for a while or that have been bottled in a clear bottle versus a dark bottle.

Oh, that matters?

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because these oils,

the interesting thing is that the better the oil is for you, the more volatile it is, the more easily it goes rancid, because it's the things that make it

healthful when it's pure and natural and fresh

that

can go against you when these

unattached bonds get saturated or trans saturated and then become

or get

rancid as a result of this exposure to oxidation, things like that.

That's interesting.

The best olive oil I ever had was in Greece.

I could drink it.

Yeah,

I can't drink good olive oil because it sticks in the back of my throat.

But that's a measure.

The bite that an olive oil has is a measure of how good it is, I guess.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Mark, it's been a pleasure, man.

What's next for you?

You're seven years old, got a new business.

You want to retire ever?

Well, I tried to retire.

After I sold Primal Kitchen, I tried to retire and it didn't work.

And that's why

this shoe business, this footwear, this foot health has been a passion of mine for a long time.

And I'm like, okay,

this is the timing is right.

Like, as I'm sure you have heard from other guests on your show, in business, you have to have a great idea, you have to have a good team, but timing is also really critical in when you bring your product to market.

And I think there's a real opportunity here to educate the world on the importance of foot health, on the importance of it, not just in terms of...

you know, general health, but balance, you know, over as you as you get older in your lifetime.

I mean, balance is a big thing for me now.

Yeah.

I don't want to fall and break anything.

No, I know people that have died from falling at an old age.

Yeah.

No,

it's a real thing.

It's a thing.

So, you know, and then, and I just think people want to have access to mobility for as long as they can.

They want to be able to walk.

I see people in their 30s and 40s that are limping now.

Wow.

Partly because they can't do the work all the way up the kinetic chain because their feet are in such bad health, they can't get that first ground contact to work in their favor.

And so the balance, balance, the imbalances, then compound as you go up the kinetic chain.

Time to stop there.

Yeah,

thanks for coming on, Mark.

Thanks for having me, Sean.

Yeah, thanks for watching, guys.

Check out Palooza Shoes if you care about your foot health, and thanks for watching.