Mark Douglas On Building a Billion Dollar Company & Partnering With Ryan Reynolds | DSH #156

What have been the most successful ad campaigns you've seen that just got a ton of eyeballs?

The one that got the most is

Peloton.

Basically, HBO show had a main character die on a bike.

Mr.

Big in the show is riding a Peloton and he dies on a Peloton as the character in the show.

Oh my gosh.

That's how they rode him out of the show.

So the stock actually crashed.

Next day, the stock of Peloton actually went.

Yeah.

So over the next, so within 36 36 hours, we developed an

Maximer team created an ad for Peloton.

That

the ad was that he faked his death and ran off with the Peloton.

That's awesome.

That's brilliant.

That's brilliant.

Welcome back to the Digital Social Hour.

I'm your host, Sean Kelly.

Here are my co-host Charlie Cavalier and our guest today, Mark Douglas.

How you doing?

Good, man.

You?

Good.

I'm doing great.

You look like you're in a great mood, man.

I'm a little tired, actually.

It started the day early.

And

I've been to

Tucson and back

this morning, today.

I had to drive.

Yeah, I flew.

I have a pilot's license.

I flew.

Flew myself.

Yeah.

It's only one, and you've already made a round trip.

Yeah, so I flew myself this morning and flew back.

Man.

So you have like your own jet or something?

Yeah.

Okay.

We're going to have to die into that.

I went to a high school called Aviation High School.

And so even as a kid, I wanted to be involved in aviation.

I didn't wind up pursuing it as a career.

But

I eventually got a pilot's license.

So I got an airframe mechanics license in high school.

Only high school in the world you can do that.

And then as an adult, I learned to fly.

And eventually, yeah, I'm a type rated jet pilot.

That's really cool.

It's not something I actually talk about.

This is the first time I'm actually.

Very few people know that.

Yeah, because it's kind of like

I think people respect that I'm in the front of the plane flying it as opposed to the back of the plane just burning jet fuel and

saying

to everybody.

That's funny.

I didn't know there was a high school for airplane.

Yeah, that's funny.

Yeah, New York York City has.

I grew up in New York City, so they have these vocational, yeah, bronx science, aviation, and it was fun.

I feel like that's one of the most useful skills you could have in life, being able to fly.

I find it, I mean, the thing is, connecting it a little to business, I do so many more in-person meetings than I would

because I wouldn't have gone to Tucson this morning for a meeting if, you know, what I thought was an important meeting, unless, you know, without the convenience of being able to get there and get back you know here in time

yeah what was the hardest part about getting your license

I did it like a job I had just sold the company earlier in my career and I went to the airport 90 day five days a week for 90 days at the end of 90 days I was a licensed pilot now to then reach you know like jet levels that takes more training but the you know I really dove into it I had the luxury of being able to like kind of dedicate myself to it at the start yeah I want to dive into Mountain and how you even got business partnered with Ryan Reynolds so you tell that story yeah so what

I'll give you a quick background on mountain so mountain essentially

has democratized TV advertising.

TV advertising used to be this thing where you had to spend big budgets and really expensive creative and hire big agencies in order to to get your brand to television, which is a really powerful medium.

What we did is we turned that into like a software solution where you can just come into the Mountain Software platform, you can literally upload TV commercials and set who you want to reach, and it runs like any digital campaign, like if you were using Meta's ad platform or Google's ad platform.

But we did that for television and it exploded.

I mean, we now,

the small, you can go down as low as $5,000 a month on your ad campaign.

I mean, no one before we did that thought you could do TV advertising for the little brand.

Yeah, and or it can go millions.

And we have customers in that entire spectrum.

And so we just basically, with the advent of streaming television, which makes it like not broadcast and cable, makes it more personal, that enabled us to build all the software to kind of democratize the medium, the TV TV network.

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Love it because we're just bringing all these new customers into the television advertising market.

Nice.

And then,

so as you mentioned, Ryan Reynolds became our chief creative officer about two years ago.

And

the way that came about is one of the problems we had is that we have all these customers coming to TV for the first time, but they literally didn't have TV ads.

So that was their biggest issue.

It's like, this sounds great, but I don't have a 30-second commercial for ABC, you know, for a major TV network.

So how am I going to get that?

So we,

Ryan has an agency called Maximum Mafret that he built to get Dead to market Deadpool because the original Deadpool didn't, the studio didn't provide

marketing.

He had to do his own.

Yeah, they wouldn't get marketing.

They They bought the rights for Deadpool.

Yeah.

And then they wouldn't build it.

And then for like five years, it was sat on a shelf until somebody pretended to leak that it was going to happen or something like that.

And then everybody went so nuts, the studio's like, guess we got to make it.

Oh, wow.

Yeah.

And so, and obviously it's been a massive

success.

But part of that success was the marketing of the film.

And we've all been exposed to the marketing.

A lot of that was earned media, meaning it was just like viral video, basic videos that Ryan and his team, very small team, which is how he loves it,

were doing to basically market the film.

So, the typical method, I'm not much into like marketing movies, but the typical method is trailer, trailer, trailer.

And billboards.

Yeah, I mean, he kind of showed how you really use social media to market a film, essentially.

And so now he has an agency,

and the and that he they started to take on other clients the thing um when I met Ryan that was interesting um because I kind of a lot of people ask I asked him so why you know why do you like doing like like commercials because he he actually enjoys he says this connects to your story you know he says took like eight years to make Deadpool for you know 50 million people to see it or 100 however many people see it he said I could do an ad this weekend and 50 million people see it that week.

And so he's like, I'm just a creator and he thinks that advertising is another medium to, and obviously social media to create.

And so that's why

he took Maxim Effort and was like, let's keep doing this and let's do it with emerging brands, which that closes the story, which dovetailed

exactly with Mountain.

Because we were enabling the TV medium for advertising with emerging brands.

And then Ryan's Maxim effort team loved emerging brands.

And

someone introduced us.

Wow.

And I mean, within three days,

we were like, okay, let's combine this.

Let's have matchmade in heaven.

Yeah, let's just make that.

Let's just do this together.

That's beautiful.

Nice.

And

it's been, you know, fantastic.

Yeah, that's literally the hardest working.

I wouldn't even say in you know the old saying, hardest working person show visit.

Hardest working person in business.

Wow.

Like he's he has an insane workout.

He just had a major exit, right?

Yeah.

And people give me credit for it.

I'm like,

you know, like, hey, congrats, Mark.

I'm like, yeah, I didn't sell any gin.

That was Ryan.

Or, you know, it was

a mobile company.

Yeah, yeah.

Unfortunately, I didn't know Ryan.

He did that deal.

That helps Mountain, though.

No, it does.

It does.

And we work with that company and now T-Mobile.

And so that was all good.

Now, with the decline in TV viewership, are you going to pivot towards putting ads on Hulu, Netflix, and other platforms?

So, when I'm saying TV, I mean all like streaming advanced.

Oh, okay.

So, you're already on there.

Right.

So, we're already, yeah, on

we

stream ads through partnerships literally with every ad-supported content source in America, but what we call living room quality.

So, like episodic programming, you know, like as sit-down, watch TV type programming.

Got it.

And the reason for that is because that's where it performs the best.

So a typical YouTube ad actually doesn't really perform.

So one thing to keep in mind, all of our,

the ad industry is kind of divided into two sectors.

You have one sector of brand advertisers, they buy ads.

The other sector, what we call performance advertisers, directors,

they don't buy ads.

They want to buy traffic.

Right.

And so like no one goes to Google.

No one wakes wakes up in the morning and goes, I want to buy some ads on Google's search page.

What they really want is, I want to get traffic to my brand.

And the ad is just a means to an end.

Mountain is in that part of the market that's direct response, which is three times the size of brand advertising.

So, everyone thinks brand advertising, in the U.S., that's a $70 billion market.

Direct response advertising, Google, Meta, Mountain, Amazon, that's $180 billion advertising.

Wow.

Yeah.

So, it's much, much larger.

And so the name of the medium for

kind of emerging adverts, any size advertising,

these are e-commerce companies, travel brands,

direct to consumer brands that are looking to, you know, kind of just make you aware of what they have.

And if it's something you like, great.

They just got a new customer.

Wow.

We got to talk because I know so many big e-comm brands that spend so much money on Facebook ads.

Yeah.

I'll send them your

awesome.

Gotcha.

What has been the biggest thing that you see other people doing?

And don't give away too many trade secrets now, right?

But what do you see people doing incorrectly when they try to copy what you're doing?

Well, usually it kind of starts with the brand themselves.

So they get very focused on the medium.

Like, okay, I have this team to do like search, this medium to do meta, this medium, this team, I mean, to do TV, rather than focused on the method, which is like,

because the skill set that your meta team has is actually probably way better for television advertising in this new world of you can target it, you can measure it, things like that that we've enabled.

And so that's the biggest struggle.

When we go to larger brands, they want to silo everything.

And we're like, like, your TV team has never been held accountable to metrics at all.

Like, they just literally broadcasting out ads.

They're the ones buying ads as opposed to driving traffic to the brand.

So that's the biggest issue: is you should say, what is your goal?

And whoever in your company is best at that goal is who you should assign to it.

So to get back to your question, I don't think our competitors clearly understand that either.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So

what have been the most successful ad campaigns you've seen that just got a ton of eyeballs?

They're a lot.

I mean,

the the one that got the most is

Peloton.

Yeah, I just skip that every day.

Yeah,

we were involved in that.

And

they got called out on an HBO show.

Basically, HBO show had a main character die on a bike.

I didn't hear about that.

I ride a Peloton every day.

What's going on?

Well, there was nothing wrong with the Peloton, but the stock crash.

Like, basically, what is, you know, when, when,

what's the phrase when life follows art or something?

Oh, right, right, right, yeah.

Right.

So he died?

Yeah, so they have Mr.

Big.

Mr.

Big in the show is riding a Peloton, and he dies on a Peloton as the character in the show.

Oh, my gosh.

That's how they wrote him out of the show.

So the stock actually crashed.

The next day, the stock of Peloton actually went, yeah.

So over the next,

so within 36 hours, we developed an ad, so the Maximer team created an ad for Peloton That

the ad was that he faked his death and ran off with the Peloton's truck.

That's awesome.

That's brilliant.

That's brilliant.

It went out 30, literally, the ad was created and released on our platform and every social platform so fast that people were like, No, you had to have no.

No, it was created over a weekend, put out on Mountain's platform, put out on social media, got six billion views.

Yeah, that's crazy.

Yeah, I woke up Monday morning to every literally everyone from Good Morning America to Al Jazeera wanting to do an interview about the adult.

That's the best.

About the ad,

kind of the response ad

to what happened.

And that's a thing that we call fast fortizing, which is like your first thought is probably a bet.

Like, don't try.

This is another learning is like most companies try to have that one big ad campaign.

You're better off just kind of staying in the flow of culture and just doing a lot of small campaigns at a lot lower cost, right?

And those opportunities, you know, just come about every week.

You just kind of have to, if they kind of dovetail with your brand in a nice way, seize them.

So that's the other thing is, you know, you like companies routinely spend hundreds of thousands of dollars, obviously, for the Super Bowl million.

I was about to bring it on an ad.

Nobody does that on TikTok or Instagram.

They spend 10K.

Yeah.

And then they do, you know, new ones every month.

One of the funniest quotes I saw by the Super Bowl commercials was Mr.

Beast after the commercial said, if anybody wants to reach a hundred million people for less than seven million dollars, give me a shout.

Yeah, there you go.

Right, the average was 10 miles.

Okay, I had heard seven, but ten, that's crazy.

So at what point does a brand even

justify spending seven, ten million dollars on a Super Bowl commercial versus like what could be a year-long social campaign?

I mean it obviously it has to be something like a product launch.

You're trying to create a ego maybe?

Ego probably does.

I mean you can see me stuttering trying to answer the question

because

and so the and the creative doesn't have to cost that much either.

They spend a lot on that too for the Super Bowl odds.

Oh, it's an insane amount of money.

So the and just again, first thought, do it fast, make it culturally relevant if you can, if that fits what you the moment, the brand, and that tends to work much better and at a much, much lower cost.

I saw you guys are using some AI stuff too, right?

Yeah, so we just launched or announced, we haven't actually launched it yet,

a creative AI platform.

So what we're trying to do is it dovetails with what we're just talking about.

Instead of having brands do one or two commercials a year, we want to help lower the cost of building the creative so they can do one or two every month.

And so that's what we're after there.

And so initially, we're actually,

a lot of people think AI kind of is trying to eliminate jobs.

I think the best quote I've seen on that, you guys have probably heard is the is that AI

eliminates the job of the people who are not using it.

Right?

I like that.

Yeah.

And so we're trying to

the creators to be able to build more, but do it at a lower cost.

We're not trying to replace.

I don't know any marketers waking up and go, you know, today I want to be a videographer.

No.

No.

And no amount of AI tools are really going to, like, bring all of the skills of the videographer in terms of the creativity and things like that.

So what we want to do, it's more is if we can help lower some things like the cost of storyboarding.

The nightmare scenario in advertising for creative is you hire someone, you agree on what you want, they build it, and you hate it.

Right?

And now they still want to get paid, and you have an asset that you're like, I would never show this to anyone.

And so you can do things like make live storyboards.

We can use generative AI so you can kind of get a really good feel for what the ad's going to be, even if you're still going to do full production on it.

Things like that.

So we're attacking those kind of elements in the ad creation process through, it's called Viva from Knights.

I love that.

Do you ever see, we'll use Ryan as an example.

Is he ever going to like, you know, sign his rights over to use his face as an AI deep fake in a movie?

Well, I think the Writers Guild is striking on the topic of AI.

So my default response would be probably no.

Oh, I thought it was about pay.

They're striking about AI, too.

I think it's in there also.

Yeah.

But I don't know.

I mean, that's

right.

I often get asked this question is, you know, what's it like to be Ryan Rouse's boss?

I'm not Ryan's boss.

I mean, Ryan is a prolific creator.

He's,

you know, it's incredible.

Him and George Dewey, his co-creator and the rest of the team that are

there.

We all work together, but

they pursue a lot of projects.

I don't,

that could occur in the future.

It's definitely not something that I think anyone's thinking anytime soon.

What are some emerging trends you see in the advertising space coming up?

Because I noticed on TikTok, the ads are more like homey.

It's not like professional, you know what I mean?

Right.

It's more like intimate.

Well, that's the whole idea is

to

lower the cost by being more real, like, like by, you know, kind of like being honest that, hey, I just want to show you my product.

Right.

That's all.

See, I don't know, 50 years ago, or probably even less, it was, you know, jingles and let me subconsciously get you to buy a product.

You have to be determined to buy a bad product these days.

Like, it is so easy to check.

I don't buy lunch without checking reviews.

Seriously, right?

Nothing do I buy without checking reviews.

It takes no amount of time.

So you can't like kind of sell someone these days and

for a while now.

you just can offer you can just say hey this might be interesting and I think and then to get people to pay attention you have to be creative and that's where you know you're referring to that kind of homey feel that that genuine feel and and and um if the more people feel that the generally the more they lean into it if they feel it more as like a form of entertainment then that they're gonna appreciate it more and that's how i shop shop now, to be honest.

Yeah, and I look at reviews every time on Amazon.

Yeah, I mean,

it's crazy if you're like buying a product and going, I wish I didn't buy this.

I mean, you didn't do, you literally did not do your homework.

D-I-O-R.

What is your least,

in your opinion, what is the least useful social media platform in existence?

Well,

I'm not, I'm neither a big Twitter fan or

threads.

I mean, it's like blue check Mark Ocean right now.

Like,

I went on to Threads this morning because I was curious, and there was not a post from someone who didn't have a blue check.

Wow.

It's too easy to get now.

Well, it wasn't even so much that, it's that the engagement is coming from professional content creators.

It's not, there's no, there seems to be literally almost zero organic

stuff happening on on threads.

I mean granted it's like not even is it day five.

Yeah, but the

you know Twitter I is is just I'm still for me personally.

Yeah Instagram is a great platform

The tick tock, you know, it's fun to use you like the visuals you like Instagram TikTok.

Yeah, I mean and and I think it's you know connecting to what we do.

It's it's a great all of our customers use those platforms.

You know,

you never hear of people making Twitter odds.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And the, but we'll see.

I mean, competition breeds creativity.

So that, the, the whole, like, kind of

Twitter space kind of, I'll put threads in the general concept of Twitter space, you know, one-to-many communication to anyone.

Yeah.

Competition might really

change that arena.

And I think, you know, words have kind of disappeared from social media.

10 seconds or less now.

Yeah, I think they do play a role.

And the um and it's part of the reason you see a lot of profet what feel even if it feels really organic, it's still professional content, is because you know the words are so much easier than

videos and things like that for most people.

Yeah.

Yeah, I don't use Twitter anymore, dude.

No, I think you know, we both hopped on the threads thing recently.

Twitter became a bit of a cesspool, I'm not gonna lie.

You get on there, the UI is not fun.

You know, there's ads everywhere, buy this, show that tag you in this retweet this like that giveaway here give away over there So I mean, I'm not a huge tick-tock fan.

We both love Instagram, so it's nice to we like the visuals like you do

It feels like it's not for it's for extroverts.

Yes, like for people that want a lot of attention.

Yeah, whereas everyone forgets social media started with it truly was between friends, right?

Like original Facebook, your feed only had content.

I'm old enough where you had to be invited by somebody who was already on Facebook to join Facebook.

And you had to have a.edu email address to get into Facebook.

That's crazy.

07.

Yeah.

Man.

Where do you see the future of content?

Because it seems like it's leaning towards short form now, but I don't know if that's a fad or do you think the long form will make a comeback?

I mean, they both play a role.

I mean,

at the end of the day, a lot of money is spent on people sitting in front of the TV and watching Netflix and watching, you know, kind of long form content.

So that's not, I mean, there's a role to play there.

At the same time, like me personally, I use YouTube a lot.

And

I'm listening to shows like this, you know, watching shows like this.

And so I think they both play a role.

And

the thing is, is now it's so mobile also that you're just kind of always consuming content.

The one thing that is, if you look at the stats, so the average user person uses social media, who's active on social media 59 minutes a day, they watch the same person watches TV three hours a day.

Wow.

So those are

actual stats.

It's part of why my company pursued the space because we were like, well, the TV market is undermonetized because it's only selling the one to 2,000 companies,

where all the revenue is generated.

Whereas social has hundreds of thousands, millions of companies leveraging it

as an advertising medium.

So

the medium is still there.

And anytime you see it in

certain shows on Netflix, I mean, they routinely kind of cross over into becoming part of the popular culture conversation.

Yeah, squid game.

Yeah, and so

that's kind of proof that long form,

they both play a role.

It's also kind of proof that people are just insatiable consumers of content, period.

Yeah.

So

I'm not sure one's taking from the other.

I think

the TV is not growing as fast, but it's huge to begin with.

Yeah, that's where you balance that.

That's like a cult following, too.

Right.

When you have the long-form viewer.

How much focus, if any, have you put into advertising and video games?

We haven't done anything there.

Really?

And I find it to be an

I would love that off camera sometime.

I would love to have that conversation.

We should, yeah, because we're very, very focused on the kind of democratized TV opportunity, so we're kind of staying very tightly focused there.

But a lot of the technology we've created, if not most all of it, could be applied to gaming and other range.

You told me about the Fortnite music thing, right?

Dude, the Fortnite Music thing.

And you know what I so I love reading.

I'm a marketing geek.

I love industry data reports more than I want to admit, honestly.

There's a lot of people doing the dual monitor or the triple monitor setup, right?

Where they're sitting there and they're playing Fortnite, but they have YouTube off to the side or Netflix off to the side.

So the socials people and the Netflix people think they have that guy's attention, but really he's playing Fortnite, and whoever advertising in the video game is the one winning the most.

That's funny.

That's really interesting.

And so I don't doubt it at all.

Yeah, and it's really interesting to see, like, you know, Fortnite, Call of Duty, Valor, and all these games.

I mean, gaming is going to be a $200 billion industry by 2020.

It's the biggest entertainment.

I think people are always surprised at how small the movie industry is.

Because it has such a kind of impact in everyone's mind, but in broad numbers, like the video game industry is, but

I believe it's bigger than television.

Oh, yeah, the Harry Potter game they just released.

The one Harry Potter game they just released made more money than all eight movies combined.

Oh, yeah.

Are you serious?

In the first like three weeks.

Those movies are legendary.

Yep, dude.

Like for real.

Yep.

And so there's a lot going on with video games now.

And that also kind of makes me because a lot of the advertising you're doing is

it's not immersive, but it's on social media.

And it's like you're breaking the fourth wall.

Right?

It's Ryan breaking the fourth wall or whoever you're using breaking the fourth wall.

When are we going to start seeing, if there is a fifth wall, if you'll allow me to just make that up?

When are we going to start seeing people interacting in the ads on social media instead of just consuming it?

I don't see a lot of that right now.

And

the reason being is part of it is that substantially raises the cost of creating.

Like most companies don't have them.

I think you could start to see

some of the biggest brand advertisers.

I think those are the opportunities they're looking for.

That emerging e-commerce brand that, you know, we kind of been referring to, I don't think they're, you know, like that they have the resources of people or, you know, to do that.

But I think really large brands.

And then once you have people who break that ground, then you can start to like kind of bring that, again, democratize it, bring down the costs and things like that.

It's interesting,

you mentioned

having, you know, someone's got a monitor in front of them, they got Netflix and YouTube, because I mentioned when I, you know, a few minutes, right before we started, I mentioned that my company is fully remote.

So we have 500 people with no office.

300 of them are playing Fortnite right now.

Could be.

So people find that really fascinating that we're and a lot of companies who thought they were going to be remote are kind of like giving up on the concept.

But we're actually very committed to it and almost couldn't go back if we wanted to because everyone is scared.

Wow.

Like we have people when the pandemic started, I think something like 98% of our team lived in LA and now that's down that they can scattered.

It's like 15, less than 15%.

Which is a combination of all the hiring we've done, combined also with everyone scattering.

But

we do do, I just thought this topic would be interesting.

We do do quarterly off-sites,

and the off-sites cost as much as offices.

Wow.

To fly 500 people to one location

costs a lot of money.

Sounds like a lot of.

Yeah.

it's not, we don't save any money on it's a, it's a, it's kind of a,

I was going to say lifestyle choice, but

there's a better word.

I'm not sure what it is, but it's a choice.

We'll just say it's a choice.

Yeah.

It's not less expensive,

or if, if anything, it's a bit more expensive.

To make it doable, to make it, you have to have like, you have to have really clear metrics for everything.

Because I don't, you know, know if that person's taking a break and playing fortnite more power to you as long as they're in the numbers like so you just care about the metrics you don't care how many hours they're putting in well yeah i mean you never in a tech company it never works to manage people by managing their time i always say like when you when you join a company you're essentially entering a relationship except most companies it's a very transactional relation it's like a relation you would never get into in your personal life.

You would never enter a relation and go, okay, this is how it's going to work.

I'm going to give you money, you know, but in return, you're going to, you know, do everything I want, exactly when I want it.

It used to be, wear what I want, like, like, almost wear, well, you still do that.

Wear a uniform and a lot of jobs.

And

all these things.

You would be like, you would never enter a relationship.

I'm good.

And so, you know, to have a team of that size where there has to j like any relationship, there has to be a lot of trust and there has to be a lot of clarity.

Absolutely.

And if you bring and a lot of like vision and passion, like we all know where we're trying to get together.

And then if everyone views it as everywhere in this relationship together, then you know, each individual with their coworkers and so forth,

you can make it work.

And I think we've made it work really well.

And as a result, you know, like I, everyone can

live where they want.

They

We have a lot of digital nomads that kind of travel and live all over.

And I personally, I think we've grown tremendously during that time.

So I think it's really, really worked for us.

Mark, it's been a pleasure, man.

Been a great episode.

Where can people find out more about you?

Thanks.

Appreciate it.

Can they find you on Instagram?

Oh, yeah.

Instagram, TeachMe How to Douglas.

Teach Me How to Douglas.

Number two.

Teach Me How to Douglas.

Teach Me How to Douglas.

And yeah, that's the main platform I'm on.

Teach me how to Douglas.

All right.

Teach me how to Douglas, guys.

Go find them.

Thanks for watching.

I'll see you next time.