Tom Walters On Chiropractors, Best Time of Day to Stretch & Causes of Neck & Back Pain| DSH #153

Now what's your stance on chiropractors?

Because my friend works in an ER.

He's actually seen some paralysis.

Where do you stand on them?

The problem is when you get chiropractors to sort of act like they're MDs and it's just dishonest.

In a lot of cases if you look at mortality, you know, I mean maybe you had a grandparent like who fell and fractured a hip or something like that.

It's

those types of issues and people get older and they become frail are a lot of times what end up make causing them to be sedentary.

So like somebody falls down, then they have what's called a fear of falling.

I mean, it's really high.

The number of people that die, older people that die after a hip fracture, it's like 30% die in the next year.

Whoa!

Welcome back to the Digital Social Hour, guys.

I'm your host, Sean Kelly.

Here are my co-hosts, Charlie Cavalier and Dr.

Tom Walters.

Thanks for having me, guys.

Awesome to be here.

Thank you.

Absolutely, man.

So I've been seeing your clips everywhere on social media, so I had to reach out to you.

Oh, man, it's awesome to be here.

I totally nerd out on this stuff, so it's fun to come and talk about pain and injury.

I think it's super helpful to people.

There's a lot of stuff out there, common myths, and

just kind of debunking some of that stuff and then trying to put things out to help people.

So it's been cool to see it grow over the years.

Yeah, let's get right into it.

What are some common pain myths that you'd like to debunk?

You know, probably the biggest, some of the biggest ones that got me started started back in the day, I've been a PT for 17 years now, and I think after, you know, probably just two to five years of practice, I started seeing a lot of, unfortunately, a lot of medical providers, doctors, physical therapists, chiropractors, a lot of us from an educational standpoint come from this kind of,

we look at pain, we were always taught to look at pain from a very like posture, structure, biomechanics.

All pain is blamed on the physical body.

And, you know, the more your pain science has sort of evolved over the years, and there's people out there that are physical therapists who then go and do PhDs just in pain neuroscience, the more we've learned about pain, we've seen that it really is tied to our mental health, our our thoughts and emotions, our social connectedness.

And I think we're seeing this in a lot of places on social media now, how important those things are in your health.

But that was probably some of the biggest myths is that I'd be frustrated because patients would come in and they'd tell me something that like, oh, this person said my back pain is because my legs aren't the same length.

And it was just such, you know, I think in some cases those practitioners were intentionally telling that to people to create this dependency on coming back, you know, because they want to keep their business going.

Shout out to my chiropractor.

Yeah.

So,

yeah, it's like, you'd see a lot of that stuff where it's like, oh, I, you know, you create, use fear-mongering, and it's the opposite of placebo.

You use the nocebo to use a narrative that's actually ends up being harmful to people that convinces them they need to come back for your intervention, and that's the only way they can get better.

And really, the pain neuroscience research, as that evolved, showed that one, like most things get better just with time, but they're much more complex.

Like pain neuroscience, the experience of pain is this complex thing that really emerges from your brain.

It's not something that's in your tissues of your body.

I mean, you know, years and years ago, that's how it was thought of.

Like, you'd have a pain in your foot, that would go up and tell your brain there's pain down there.

But over time, it's changed where now we see you can have something happening that's kind of dangerous to your body, and you'll have these danger messages, but really your brain determines, should I output pain?

And that's highly individual.

It's based on like how stressed you are, you know, how stressed you are, what's going on in your environment, memories, beliefs, like the culture you grew up in, you know, because pain is viewed, you know, like different cultures look at pain as a weakness.

Like sometimes you just don't talk about it.

Yeah.

So anyways, there was a lot of that stuff.

It was like, I really need to, if I'm going to help more people,

because you'd have people just wouldn't get better with like the old ways of thinking.

And so it really motivated me to like, I need to go down this road and learn more about pain.

And that was really where a lot of the social media stuff came from.

Yeah, that's so interesting.

I always thought of pain as just physical and not mental at all, to be honest.

Yep.

Yeah, a lot of people do.

Obviously, there are a lot of pains like that.

So now we look at it from this biopsychosocial model.

So the bio part is the physical type of pain.

Like if you sprain your ankle, that pain is mostly physical.

That's what I thought of.

Yeah, personally.

This is a crazy 15,000 ankle sprains a day in the U.S.

So it's crazy.

I almost did it yesterday.

Yeah, totally.

I was saying, 15,000, geez.

Yeah.

So, you know, if you sprain your ankle, you probably stretch those ligaments on the outside of your ankle, and that's probably going to create pain.

So if you have a pain in that situation, that is most likely really tied to...

Those physical tissues.

But you look at something like chronic low back pain, you know, and that's a, there are these kind of characteristics and ways you can differentiate from sort of like a more mechanical pain to something that has these other factors.

So like how long has it been around?

Chronic pains, you probably heard like fibromyalgia, things like that, they'll kind of spread.

They won't be as mechanical in nature.

A real mechanical injury, you can kind of turn it on and off very easily.

Like if you stress that body region, it'll hurt when you stop stressing it, it stops hurting.

And but there's a lot of pains that just aren't like that.

And so

you've got to kind of figure out what type of pain do I have and that kind of helps you figure out how do I address it.

And a lot of chronic pain is actually like the approach to it is kind of like mental health disorders where you expose people to the threatening thing, but in gradual steps.

Like if you're scared of, I was bringing up the example, if you're scared of snakes, right?

On your first appointment, you don't just hand the person a snake.

You might just have them think about snakes or like watch a movie with

you.

Exactly.

So chronic pain is very similar.

It's just that it's your movement system that's sensitive.

So rather than trying to repair or fix some tissue in the body, you're just trying to desensitize the nervous system through gradual exposure.

What are the most common pains pains you see, and what's been the best solutions in your experience for those pains?

Yeah, you know, for sure, if you look at the stats, some kind of like low back pain, spine pain is just really common.

Yeah, you know, we were just talking about neck pain a second ago.

So, those two are really prevalent.

You know, and then associated with those, you can have people who just have that pain that stays in their spine, and then they can have radiculopathy where it has a nerve pain that travels down their arm or leg.

Whoa, so you have that?

I have that because my SCM is so tight.

Uh-huh.

So, I'll get vertigo because your SCM wraps around your Eusteian tube.

Yep.

And so sometimes when I go on a plane, I have to take a muscle relaxer, literally just so that the pressure in my head will release through my Eusteian tube because my SCM is so tight.

And then if I stretch this in a weird way for too long, I can feel the tingly all the way down my hand.

Exactly.

Yeah, it's crazy.

Your neck muscles are super tied into the function of like your head.

A lot of people with jaw issues and kind of ear issues have neck issues in combination.

And that position you were shown with your arm, that is a very common.

We'll actually, with a lot of these nerve pains, in rehab, do something called a nerve mobilization.

Sometimes it's called nerve flossing, sort of like imagine pulling floss between your teeth.

Your nerves move like that.

They do these studies where they will put pins in the nerves of cadavers.

And then you move the arms and legs of cadavers, and they found that your nerves actually have to slide from anywhere from a few millimeters up to several centimeters.

So that position you're talking about, if you reach out like that, that's actually the primary position we

use to

mobilize the media nerve, which is.

This is my money now.

So, you should do that as an exercise.

Like, when you're having, like, if you get arm tingle like that, what you would do, it kind of looks like this funky dance, but when your arm is out like that, it tensions that media nerve.

That's why you start getting that tingling.

So, what you do is you alternate.

So, when you bring your wrist up like that, you move your head away.

So, now the nerve is tensioned at your neck.

Yep.

And then when you go the other way.

Holy sh.

Then when you go the other way, it tensions it down towards your wrist and puts it on slack.

Dude, I can never crack my neck that way.

Really?

Ever.

It may be that, you know, because all those nerve roots are exiting that side of your neck.

So, and going down your arm.

So if you change the tension on the nerve farther down its path, it will influence your spine.

Wow, wow.

It's kind of crazy.

And it's not like, it sounds like voodoo, but they literally study it in cadavers.

And now we have studies showing like in carpal tunnel, that same nerve goes through there.

Your nerves have their own microcirculation.

So if you do these nerve mobilizations, it's been shown that it improves circulation to the nerve.

So spine pain's a big one.

And then once you get out of that, you know, you see a lot of things, Like you look at shoulder and knee, of course, like the ankle sprain thing.

You know, in the knee, you see a lot of, you know, ACLs get a lot of coverage, meniscus tears.

A lot of people just have just general pain things like pain on the front of the knee is super common.

Yeah, right.

Like behind your kneecap, patella femoral pain.

Yeah.

I have a ton of that.

I had a surgery on that, my kneecap in high school, and I just have patellofemoral pain on that side.

And so if I do too many squats or something, it'll flare up.

I can't squat.

I'll just get this kneecap seven times.

Oh, man.

Meniscus three times, MCL once.

So I want my best friend here to live forever.

Yeah.

He's tall.

Yeah.

He's always worried about how taller people don't live as long, right?

He's not worried about it, but it comes up.

It comes up.

Statistically.

What can my homie here do to make sure that as a taller than average person, he does things that maybe, you know, six foot, not 5'11,

my six-foot self doesn't have to do, right?

Because he's tall.

No, it's huge.

You know, I think the big thing from your physical body kind of standpoint for longevity, the biggest thing is honestly like resistance training you know because if you keep yourself strong what happens you know it's it's easy when you're like in your 20s and 30s but as you cross like I'm 41 now you just as things start to change I yeah luckily genetics I look a little bit excited

and then maybe hopefully exercise is helping and all that but no you know you people lose muscle mass like you just lose muscle mass as you age your bone density goes down and those are the things in a lot of cases if you look at mortality you know I mean maybe you had a grandparent like who fell and fractured a hip or something like that.

Those types of issues and people get older and they become frail are a lot of times what end up causing them to be sedentary.

So like somebody falls down, then they have what's called a fear of falling.

I mean, it's a really high, the number of people that die, older people that die after a hip fracture, it's like 30% die in the next year.

Whoa.

So it's, and a lot of that is associated with muscle weakness leading up to that.

So they're already weak, they fall down, then they're scared of falling again, so then they become more sedentary, they become more deconditioned and weak.

Their bone density drops.

Their muscle mass drops.

And then they just fall down.

And then, or they get pneumonia because they're sedentary.

So

I think, you know, when you're taller, you have longer levers.

You know, I'm only 5'9.

Like, you think about Olympic gymnasts, they don't have really long levers.

You know, they're often very muscly.

They show muscle.

It's just easier for them to control their body.

I think when you meet people, not that it's so much your maybe a longevity standpoint, but I think taller people, you do see more like back pain.

And I think a lot of that often is because because they just have this longer thing that their muscles have to control and again back pains really complex I don't want to blame it on just that but I think when you're looking at longevity and keeping yourself like living as long as you can resistance training like keep yourself strong if you don't have a simple like just yeah it doesn't have to be super complicated like you just look at foundational patterns squats deadlifts pressing pulling like just keep yourself strong and as you get older it'll really make a difference.

Yeah.

Now what's your stance on chiropractors?

Because my friend works in an ER.

He's actually seen some paralysis.

Where do you stand on them?

Yeah, I think it's like any profession, of course, there are good and bad.

I have a bunch of chiropractor friends, and I think it depends on what school of thought they go through, but I have a lot of chiropractic friends who are very similar to physical therapy.

And that's really how we should be, because ultimately, we're both musculoskeletal providers.

I think

the problem is when you get chiropractors to sort of act like they're MDs, and we'll say this manipulation is going to cure these systemic things in your body.

That stuff is frustrating because there's really no evidence for that.

And it's just dishonest.

If they're trained that way and that's what they believe, I mean, that's a problem with the education system.

But they really are muscular scale providers.

They should be treating pain injuries like physical therapists do.

So there's that side of it.

The other thing that can bother me about it is that what I was talking about in the beginning, sometimes I think with chiropractic more than other healthcare professions, sometimes you see this tendency to tell people people that you have to come back to see me to have this adjustment.

Right.

You know, to clear your spine straight.

Yeah.

And that just isn't supported.

There's this idea that your spinal joints can go out of alignment isn't the case.

You'd have a fracture if that was true.

Like if you look at, you dissect a human and look at how secure your spine, your vertebrae are in, they don't slip out of place.

Your discs don't slip out of place.

They're held in place by ligaments.

Like that language actually is really harmful to people telling them, oh, you've got to slip disc, you've got to come here, or you've got this x-ray and your neck curve is flattened.

I'm going to do this adjustment once a week for the next, you know, six months, and that'll fix it.

And you do x-rays before and after.

It doesn't, the curve doesn't change.

Wow.

So really, rehab should focus around symptoms, pain, and function.

You know, looking at...

So I think those things are frustrating to me too when it's taking advantage of people really just for putting money in your wallet,

not putting their health out.

That's what I mean.

Every character practice is different, but that's what happened to me I felt like I was at the meat factory right because I went in the first time and I felt like the most important person in the world here's the x-rays there's two doctors telling me how they're going to fix me and then from then on every time I went it was one of the associates just giving me a quick little like crack in a crack not actually adjusting me and sending me on my way yeah yeah that's the stuff that's just total BS that you know it just if somebody wants to pop in you know my when I came out of school my residency was in manual therapy which was is hands-on like you're doing massage mobilizations manipulations

those things do have a place like in the it's short-term evidence you know they can help kind of jumpstart people and get them out of pain I think they're really useful for that like you could I was just talking to my buddy here in town he's a jiu-jitsu guy you know he strained his neck he couldn't turn his neck very well and he went and saw his chiropractor he was minute adjusted and he could he got range of motion his pain went down his range of motion is better that's a great place for that as long as the narrative is not you have to keep coming back here right to do this to keep your spine healthy if it's just we're gonna use this to get your pain knocked down and then you're gonna implement exercise and movement which have the better long-term evidence evidence.

Yeah.

That should be that plan, I think, is okay.

Absolutely.

Now, I need to know this for my own sake.

So, I have scoliosis.

Is it true that bad posture can cause that, or is it genetic?

Yeah,

more often nowadays, scoliosis and things like that are more attributed to genetics.

You know, I just, you'd see less and less in the research of posture being

something that we, it's less emphasized nowadays.

Like, you could take people and stick them like this for a year, and they could still straighten back out of that position.

Just the idea that adopting some posture is going to permanently deform your spine and cause scoliosis, that,

you know, because when you adopt a posture, you are using your muscles, right, to change the position of your spine.

In a true scoliotic curve that's a structural curve, you know, that, the bones are changing shape.

So for you, you know, of course your musculoskeletal system is always adapting.

So in theory, if you stuck somebody, like we're going to torture them and put them in a particular spine position, or maybe they just literally through

behaviors held that position for years and years.

Maybe in theory when they were developing from a young age, that could change how the bones develop.

And I think that that's why this definitely can happen because if you look at kids who, that's why physicians, right, that's why pediatricians are always checking.

I have two daughters, like every time you go in there, they're checking for scoliosis.

If you catch that early, you can put them in a thoracic, like say it's in their mid-back, you can put them in a thoracic brace, and that will stop, limit the development of it.

Wow.

And so if you slow it at that age, their bones won't actually change shape, and it will limit the severity of a structural scoliosis.

So there's two types.

There's functional and structural.

People can have functional scoliotic curves where literally they just have like a spasm in their low back.

You could have a leg length discrepancy.

You could have different things that can be changed by changing your muscles that correct the scoliosis.

If you've had a scoliosis for a long time, you probably developed it as you were growing.

And a lot of people, they're not actually,

they don't impair them that much.

You know, the curves, if they get really severe, they can impair, they can affect your breathing and things.

But

lower curves, a lot of people have scoliosis that don't have any pain and it doesn't affect their function.

And the people who do often get better with kind of general back pain programs.

So, you know, I think

if you, again, if you're if you're in those really young developmental years and you're always in a particular posture, maybe with enough time you could change

how your bones and things, you know, are shaped.

But, you know, again, that's why they check people and you can use bracing and things like that to prevent it from getting worse.

Do you know what your angle is?

Is it?

No, I went to the chiropractor and the guy was like, you know you have scoliosis, right?

And I haven't been told that since fourth grade, so I just

take it with a grain of salt.

Like, I think don't let that, even if it's, it's probably if they did actually see something that's valid, it's probably a really small curve.

Don't let it get in your head.

Yeah.

Honestly, because if it's a small curve and it hasn't been mentioned in that long, it probably is small.

And it probably, if it does bother you and maybe it's associated with pain, there's a lot you can do with just general back pain.

Yeah.

But don't, you know, that's the type of, that's a message that, man, to put that in someone's head.

Yeah, I was upset.

I'm not going to lie.

Dude, that's I haven't been told that since I was in fourth grade.

How can that not mess with you?

Like, then you start not trusting your body.

You start feeling like, oh, do I have a problem?

You worry about it.

it that actually worry and stress can cause more pain so it's yeah

i that stuff really bugs me it's all good um so you started off with the massage stuff you said right uh-huh

so what are the best types of massages in your opinion i think actually it's over complicated sometimes honestly uh you know there's all different kinds of things like active release and you know there's of course like deep tissue there's kind of lighter type massages i think it really if you're looking at it from a like health like a pain standpoint i mean of course if you just like feel great and you just want to go do a feel-good massage, then just base it on what feels good to you.

If you're looking at pain and injury, then it also is kind of the same where you're trying to, when someone has pain, you're basically trying to calm their nervous system down.

And so soft tissue work like massage is a good way.

Your skin has a lot of receptors, a lot of nerve ending.

So it's a great way to kind of tap into that person's nervous system.

And you're basically...

trying to grade the pressure according to what their brain perceives as threatening.

So you don't ever, these old, back in the day, we used to just push on everyone really hard.

We just do this really intense deep tissue kind of massage and thought, oh, this is just good.

Even if they're crying, it's good, right?

It's going to break some.

You know, there was this old idea that you're breaking up adhesions.

You've got muscle knots.

You've got to break them up.

That stuff, a lot of it's been debunked with ultrasound.

They basically, people just...

When they feel a tight spot in a muscle, a lot of times it's now just thought to be a hypersensitivity in their nervous system because you can't see it on ultrasound.

So there's nothing really there.

That's crazy.

That's crazy.

But they feel like some...

You can feel a knot sometimes, sometimes, so that's not actually there.

Now, sometimes what you feel when you feel a knot, because there are a lot of muscles that are just naturally, anatomically, are very ropey.

And so people will be told that's a knot when it's actually just the architecture of the muscle.

So a really good one is your levator scapulae muscle, which a lot of people will be like, oh, I'm sore.

That's the one right here.

Yeah.

Yeah, like I have, yeah.

It runs at an angle, goes up into your neck.

And so if you go like this, you will feel it.

You can strum across it, and it'll feel like a bump.

And people will be like, oh, I was told this is a knot.

I got to work that knot out.

That's literally just the anatomy of your levator.

So there's a lot of muscles like that where that muscle is just it's only about this wide so of course it's normal anatomy.

If you just go like this you're gonna feel the edges of it.

And so and it's often a spot where people do hold tension and will have these kind of trigger points.

But if you look at it under ultrasound there's nothing there.

It just feels tender when you push on it.

Interesting.

So yeah there's a lot of you gotta be careful.

That's another one of those things like oh you've got this knot here and we've gotta release it.

That spot the way it feels isn't gonna change.

I mean you have to cut the muscle out if you wanna change it.

So a lot of of people crack their fingers, crack their back, crack their necks.

Is that actually good for you?

It uh, that, yeah, yeah, right.

Everyone,

everyone, I think everyone's parents told him, Oh, you're gonna, it's gonna mess up your joints or whatever, you're gonna get arthritis.

That's been pretty much debunked.

There was actually a cool study where a guy he did imaging on his hand knuckles, and then he popped one hand for years and years and not the other, and then did imaging again, and he won a big aura, but it didn't change.

Like, his joints were the same.

And if you think about it, when you go in to see a practitioner and they adjust or manipulate your spine, they're literally popping your facet joints in your spine, which are about the size of your knuckles.

So they're literally doing the thing that your parents told you not to do to your hand.

They're doing it to you for a treatment.

Wow.

So yeah, it's been pretty much debunked that that kind of, even if you're popping yourself, it doesn't seem to damage anything.

And it appears that it's just this pressure released in the joint.

And if you have pain, it's another one of those things where it gives this kind of quick impulse into the nervous system.

And it can temporarily give people a reduction in pain and improve their mobility.

Nice.

So we're good.

Yeah, I just did it.

I tell people, you know, I mean, you, it doesn't seem like there's anything harmful from it.

I think sometimes if you're feeling the need to do that all the time, you might want to assess like, well, why, is it an anxiety type of thing?

Are you feeling, is there like a sort of, like, say you're doing it in your neck.

I went through a period of time where I did that all the time in my neck.

And I think

it was funny.

I think some of it was just a habit where because I popped it, I got in the groove of just popping it and it just became a habit.

I didn't really need to do it.

And then once I stopped, it was harder to pop it again.

If you're feeling muscle tension all the time, because some people will get that where they have a lot of muscle tension and then they feel the need, they self-pop and it feels better.

And maybe if that's chronically happening,

maybe there's something else you could add that could prevent that from coming back as much.

Maybe it's like even strengthening exercises are kind of interesting.

When people feel tight, right, we'd always do massage and stretching.

There's been some kind of new research looking at actually when you activate a muscle and strengthen it, sometimes that works better for people to get it to relax, which is counter too because you think if I'm contracting it, it's getting tighter.

But there's some people that when you, you know, have you ever felt that?

Like, if you stretch in the morning, you contract all your muscles and stretch, and then you feel like everything's relaxed.

Yeah.

It's kind of the same phenomenon that they do this in neck pain, and people get it at work, that they'll have them do these resistance training, like strengthening exercises.

A lot of those people will get better with that versus a stretching program.

Wow.

Wow.

That's crazy.

I wouldn't have never thought of that.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's cool.

It's cool to see the science change, like how much it's changed even since I got out of school in 2007, just how different, I think, just how complex the body is and the nervous system and but at the same time the stuff you do for it to keep it healthy doesn't have to be that complicated yeah it's like if you've got mobility problems you work on mobility and otherwise you just try to keep getting strong just keep strong do you think that our healthcare system can or will ever get to a point where it's more the preventative stuff that you're talking about instead of just take this pill and you'll feel better man i'd like to think it would it just yeah i left insurance a long time ago because of the frustrations with it and it just seems like it's getting worse yeah Yeah, you know, so many PTs are just burnt out.

They're seeing 15 to 30 people a day and 15-minute sessions.

You just can't get people better.

And yeah, they're just the idea that it would shift.

I mean, it makes so much sense.

Like, to have people come in before they have symptoms and teach them, or even to have insurance reimbursed for personal training.

Like, to pay for that would make a ton of sense.

Like, hey, we'll pay for you to go work out a few times a week with a trainer.

The number of issues it could cut down on because so many people just are sedentary and there's so much research now on exercise and its ability to not only keep you strong and mobile which will reduce injury risk but reduce inflammation in the body i mean so many of these chronic diseases now are related to inflammation right chronic inflammation and exercise is one of the most powerful things you can do to reduce inflammation and so

insurance companies i just don't know i i it seems so unlikely to me that it'll happen anytime soon that they would

pull the trigger to do that but But it makes, you know, it makes so much sense.

Yeah.

What are you working on now?

Anything exciting?

Yeah, I mean, it's just, I've got the book out, of course, and the book is a big one, like we were talking about.

It's almost 500 pages, but it was kind of bringing together, because, you know, on social media, you can only kind of touch on things.

It's just, and people can't find stuff.

People ask me all the time, hey, do you have a meniscus post?

And I'm trying to send things.

And they're not that comprehensive.

It's just a few exercises, and it's cool to see that help people.

But the idea with the book was to create this resource for the whole body that has programs, you know, pictures of me doing exercises where you can basically, I can go to the elbow chapter and find a tennis elbow program, or I can go to the foot chapter and find a planar fasciatis program or any part of the body and just spell things out in more detail.

The cool thing is because there is so much evidence for education and exercise, those are things you have control over.

So, you know, you might have a problem where you go see someone for a couple of manual therapy visits, like it's really bad.

You go get an adjustment or whatever, but then you go back to your exercise and movement that keeps you healthy in the long term.

And learning about pain, that's the education part.

You really, we know in the research that if you learn about pain,

people are less anxious about it.

And actually their pain symptoms tend to be worse.

It kind of calms them down.

You know, it's just anything that's, I think anything in life that's unknown is more threatening to us, right?

It's scarier if you don't know anything about it.

And pain is that way.

When people have pain, they get all these kind of worries and stresses.

So a lot of it right now has been doing awesome things like this, like coming to podcasts and meeting cool people and talking about the book.

And,

you know, just that's kind of the focus right now.

And probably what we would do is, I was just, my co-author lives here in Vegas, so I was talking with him this morning.

And we'll probably create smaller, because the book is big and covers a whole body.

You can use it as your dumbbell.

I'll check it out.

Yeah.

It's a great book.

I like how you have photos because I'm very visual.

Yeah.

And I feel like reading that wouldn't...

wouldn't make sense.

It'd be hard to understand.

Yeah, I think the photos.

Most people were excited about those programs.

You know, I hope they'll go back and read some of the pain and injury science stuff.

But most people were really excited excited just to have the programs.

And

it's kind of a DIY self-guided rehab book.

So, you know, we'll create smaller ones, I think, kind of paperback smaller ones for each joint region if case people just want one region.

And, you know, eventually kind of branch into, there's a lot of practitioners.

You know, a lot of people who follow my account are located internationally and are practitioners where physical therapy education is 20 years behind the U.S.

And so that's the really cool thing about technology is just having these platforms where you can spread education to other parts of the world and it elevates healthcare across the world.

So I think having courses for those, you know, those people that go into more depth will be another kind of branch of this.

But it's all been kind of a new journey for me.

I was practicing PT and teaching at a college and

really

social media was just a hobby.

So now it's kind of this whole thing of transitioning into it being a real business and the book's kind of the launching point.

Love it, man.

Tom, where can people find out more about you?

Yeah, it's at Rehab Science on Instagram and YouTube primarily.

And then the book is called Rehab Science: How to Overcome Pain and Heal from Injuries.

It's on Amazon and Barnes and Noble.

And people can always DM me if they have questions about stuff or looking for posts on things.

So, but yeah, that's it.

Perfect.

Thanks for having me.

Awesome.

Thanks for being here.

Thank you so much, man.

Thanks for watching, guys.

I'll see you next time.