Jerry Wise: Stop Carrying Guilt: How to Reclaim Your True Self | DSH #1535

ABC Tuesdays, Dancing with the Stars is back with an all-new celebrity cast.

You have the crew: Robert Irwin, Alex Earle, Andy Richter, Shen Affleck, Baron Davis, Lauren Howreggie, Whitney Levitt, Dylan Efron, Jordan Childs, Ilaria Baldwin, Scott Hoyd, Elaine Hendricks, Sanielle Fischel, and Corey Feldman.

This season, get ready to feel the rhythm.

If you got it, Flumton.

Dancing with the Stars premieres live.

Tuesdays, 8:7 Central on ABC and Disney Plus.

Next day on Hulu.

You know how to make a great meal.

And when it comes to the mess, Palmolive knows how to handle it.

Palmala Vultra removes up to 2.5 times the grease versus Dawn Non-Concentrated.

Palmolive's most powerful formula instantly cuts grease, leaving you with sparkling clean dishes.

Palmala Vultra.

Click or tap the banner to shop now or visit Palmolive.com.

With With parents' name-calling, shaming, all of that, it is a way to be powerful when you don't feel powerful.

And they don't know other ways to be empowered as a parent.

And they don't know other ways because they haven't learned any other ways.

And they still practice the old force approach.

It is effective in the moment, poorly effective in the long run.

Yeah, it made me rebel more.

All right, guys, first guest from Indiana on the show: 1,600 episodes.

First one from Indiana.

Let's go.

Jerry Wise.

It's hilarious.

Welcome.

Thank you very much.

I am from Indiana.

I grew up in Indiana.

And

it was a blessing to grow up in Indiana and it also caused some problems.

So it's both.

And that's what you cover mainly with your content.

And that's what I cover.

Trauma, problems.

That's right.

Narcissistic parents.

That's right.

What got you into that?

I would say primarily

working

my own past, my own family,

and

its trauma and dynamics, though it was more hidden because

we were seen as kind of the on the outside looking good family.

That doesn't mean it was looking good on the inside.

And

what really got me going, I think, was working with the

narcissism in addictions because I became an addiction therapist,

having been a marriage and family therapist, social worker, pastoral counselor, worked in psychiatric practice.

And

the working in inpatient rehab, I began to see that narcissism and how it was really destroying families.

And from there, I wanted to help those with addiction because all addiction has a narcissistic

bent to it, all addiction.

Now, that doesn't mean all alcoholics are narcissistic personality disorder, but alcoholism and all addiction has a narcissistic

thread to it.

That the whole, and they would say an AA king baby, the king baby.

That's narcissism.

Now, that doesn't mean you have the personality disorder, but when you're in your addiction, you are acting like a narcissist.

I mean, that's what you're doing.

Hopefully, then you can cure that with some recovery.

But then there are some who actually have narcissistic parents.

And working with as a family counselor in addictions, I realized, hey, I got to learn much more about this and my own past.

And

began working

in that way.

And from there on,

started to help people with dysfunctional families.

That is fascinating.

I never connected narcissism with addiction, but the way you're describing it makes sense.

Absolutely.

It's just an all-about me addict.

It's an all-about me disease.

And again,

I'm not talking badly about addicts or alcoholics at all.

It's just that's the nature of the problem.

And

that's a good bit of the nature of the problem, which is why it's so difficult to deal with.

And then families will orient themselves all around that addiction and that narcissism.

Well, let's say there's no addiction, but you have a narcissistic parent.

The family orients itself all around the narcissist.

And so that's why I call them narcissistic families.

And I say narcissistic families, and a lot of people go, oh, well, not everybody's a narcissist.

Why do you call it a narcissistic family?

Because it's the primary energy.

of this family and everybody is adjusting around it.

Wow.

That's why I call it a narcissistic family or an alcoholic family or a because the whole family gets uh

oriented around that dynamic how common are narcissistic families

very common

uh i think if if you're talking about narcissistic traits i would say very common if you're talking about npd narcissistic personality disorder then it's probably lower number.

But still, we're talking about a vast number of people, you know, a lot of families.

And

I'm also less concerned about the label.

I'm concerned about what were the dynamics in your family growing out up and how did it feel?

You know, and if you have parents, let's say, who are focused on themselves or a workaholic, and see, workaholism has a narcissistic,

you know,

basis to it, because it's an addiction too, or gambling, or and so it has that narcissism in it.

And if you grew up in a family where there is a narcissist, or a family that focuses on

do what we say, what we say is right,

your feelings, your thoughts, your beliefs don't matter.

Isn't that a kind of a narcissistic dynamic?

You know, you don't matter, we do, and we're the parent.

That's pretty narcissistic um and a lot of parents were taught taught to uh parent that way and so then we end up with kids who have a lot of

unresolved attachments a lot of enmeshment with those parents and a lot of difficulties that they take right on into adulthood that's how i was parented the parent was always right always right

you're not that important you're just a kid You're feelings, oh, you don't feel that way.

You know, like, well, that's pretty narcissistic to say to somebody, you don't feel that way.

I don't know.

You're not inside of me.

How do you know how I feel?

Yeah.

But the parent takes that role of, you don't feel that way.

Don't think that way.

That's a stupid way to think.

That's a stupid way to feel.

You know, well, that's a fairly narcissistic bent to it.

And if we are enmeshed with them, which most are, most of our families, well, there's a beginning enmeshment that's important in families.

If you're an infant, I absolutely want you to be enmeshed with your mother or your father.

Absolutely.

Please be enmeshed or you won't be healthy.

But then as you develop, I want that to become less and less is what we want.

That's the natural course of the biological development.

And so I want you to become less enmeshed with them.

The Trilight from Therasage is no joke.

Medical-grade red and near-infrared light with three frequencies per light, deep healing, real results, and totally portable.

It's legit.

Photo biomodulation tech in a flexible on-body panel.

This is the Tri-Light from Therasage and it's next-level red light therapy.

It's got 118 high-powered polychromatic lights, each delivering three healing frequencies, red and near-infrared, from 580 to 980 nanometers.

It's sleek, portable, and honestly, I don't go anywhere without it.

The problem in dysfunctional families is we often don't become less.

We continue at that enmeshment and dependency and unresolved attachment stages.

And the parents also, if they're not very healthy, don't want that to change.

You know, they have no interest in changing that.

I'm your parent.

I know what's best.

So what you and your grandparents taught me what was best, and I'm teaching you what's best.

You know, it's like, well, what if I have some ideas?

So,

what does that have to do with anything?

You know, because that talks more like about selfhood.

It takes a lot of maturity

for me to allow you to be a self.

It takes a lot of maturity on my side to allow you to be yourself.

And most people just don't have that maturity, whether it be parent-child, boss, employee,

or whoever, boyfriend, girlfriend, it takes a lot of maturity to accept the self in others.

And I usually try to help people understand that, that

most, many people are not that mature to accept the selfness of others.

Well, that keeps us pretty constrained throughout.

life.

Yeah.

And that can be a problem.

So if the parents aren't willing to change, I guess what can you really do?

Well,

then you suffer under that regime.

That's a dysfunctional family.

And we suffer and we survive.

Hopefully, we survive.

That's the hope.

And then

we have to begin doing the work of what was never done.

That's where I come.

That's where I try to help people.

Okay, they didn't do that.

They didn't do that.

They were abusive in that way.

They were narcissistic in that way.

Okay, we've got that all understood.

Now, what are you going to do with you?

And let me help you do you with you and learn self-differentiation, learning to become self-differentiated from all of that.

And that can help you to become.

the person you were always meant to be.

And people always ask me, Jerry, how do I learn to be my true self?

You begin by learning to be

learning to stop being your untrue self

or your pseudo-self.

You learn what a pseudo-self is and you learn to stop doing that.

For example, I was a very flaming, raging codependent.

let's say i was a very dependent as a kid and um

and

so, when someone began to help me understand that, wait a minute,

if codependency is about learning to over-function for others, and that's a part of codependency, is you over-function for other people and under-function for yourself.

And people go, well, how can I be my true self?

Let's work on you stopping over-functioning and over-functioning for others.

And let's help you work on functioning more for yourself.

Oh,

I hadn't thought about that.

That might be a now, you're not going to like the change.

You will not like the change because you're used to what's normal for you.

You're used to the dynamics of you over-functioning as a codependent.

or enabling that you do or all the things that we do parentification

and parentification is a part of i'm going to be the parent for the parents

um and so if i can help you

to stop doing what's not you

then what is you

will start to emerge

naturally

naturally which is pretty crazy yeah you're getting down to the root cause getting down to the root cause

And that becomes a pretty powerful transition.

You made a video on the silent treatment.

I got hit with that a lot as a kid.

Silent treatment and timeout.

Do you think those methods are effective?

Is silent treatment effective?

Well, a lot of things are effective.

They just may not be healthy or good things to do.

The silent treatment is a very effective tool and usually is done unconsciously.

The person who does silent treatment doesn't

isn't going, hey, I think I'll employ the tool of silent treatment right now.

No, they just

are immature, and that's the only response they can do right now.

And, but if you understand that, it can be far less catastrophic if you understand.

Wait a minute, because I've had friends do a silent treatment with me, and I go, Okay,

but this is their silent treatment.

It's not my silent treatment.

They don't know how to do anything other than be and do the silent treatment.

That's all they know how to do.

I can't change that.

So I need to know silent treatment, though seems like it's aimed at me,

is not personal.

It really isn't personal.

It's not about me.

It's about their dysfunction

and that coming into the process of relating to me.

But it's their dysfunction.

I'm not making them do silent treatment.

You know, if I say, hey, no, I don't want to go to your party.

I'm busy or I'm tired.

Oh, well, you don't want to come to my party.

But no, I didn't say.

I just said, I'm tired.

I don't want to come to the party.

You know, but I invited you a long time ago.

Why don't you come to the party?

I just can't.

Oh,

well, then I'll do silent treatment.

Is that silent treatment about me or their own issues?

Their own issues.

Now, which is right, exactly.

Why then would I feel hurt about that?

It's their hurt that's hurting themselves, not

they're projecting.

And so, why do I want to

absorb that?

I need to observe it.

Oh, I'm observing.

And that's why observing is a lot more powerful than absorbing.

Absorbing, that's what we learned in a dysfunctional family.

Absorb everything.

Good luck.

It'll be a holy mess.

And so I want to observe, oh, they're going into this silent treatment mode.

And then I can recontact them, talk about them again,

and talk with them again.

I hope you guys are enjoying the show.

Please don't forget to like and subscribe.

It helps the show a lot with the algorithm.

Thank you.

And begin to even go,

Hey,

you know, I know it was upsetting I didn't come to your party.

You know, I hope sometime we can reconnect.

But I'm not begging for it.

I'm asking.

I'm not, I'm not.

Their

silent treatment is not going to trigger me pursuing them

because then that would be their immaturity triggering my immaturity to pursue them.

Oh, I'm so worried that they, oh, now they won't talk to me.

Now, oh, I hope they're okay.

I hope they're happy with me.

I hope they're not unhappy with me.

That's a pursuit that we learned long ago.

And we need to stop that pursuit pattern.

Yeah, because you're rewarding their behavior.

You're rewarding it.

And not only are you rewarding it, you're participating in an old dysfunctional pattern that's also your own.

And I don't want to keep pursuing that pattern.

I don't want to keep doing that.

And so I will then more calmly, more self-focused way,

even hopefully maturely go, you know, I know it was upsetting to you.

And again, I hope we can reconnect sometime.

Well, you just really made me mad, and I thought you were insensitive.

I understand

why you might have thought that,

but I don't see it that way at all.

And

I don't.

And I don't know how to have you unsee what you see.

But I didn't see it that way and I don't see it that way.

It seemed very reasonable in my mind.

Obviously, it didn't in yours.

I don't know how to reconcile that.

Love you.

Talk to you later.

I don't know how to.

How do I take somebody's delusion and fix it?

Because that isn't what I was doing.

I said, I'm tired.

I can't go.

It's not personal that I don't want to go.

But how can I fix someone's delusion, whether it be a narcissistic parent, an alcoholic parent, a narcissistic sister?

How do I fix that?

Well, I've come to realize I can't, but I can be me, staying connected

and

being a true Jerry, my own self with them, and also not taking those things personal.

Right.

Because that's not going to help.

It's only going to make me upset and not fix the dynamic in any way.

I will just

be repeating my own dysfunctional past.

I stopped trying to fix other people.

I used to spend a lot of time and effort on that.

Exactly.

They got to fix themselves, right?

I'm afraid they do.

And that my reactivity is about me, not about them.

I love that.

Another common thing I got hit with growing up was name-calling, yelling, shaming.

That's a common tactic with parents, right?

There are many parents who do that.

It's a very unhealthy and shaming and guilting

way to parent.

But you know, most, a lot of parenting, a lot of parents still use the old notion that shaming is the way you parent.

That's that's 1905.

You know, that's,

you know, that's, I hope we can begin to move beyond that.

And people say, oh, you just got to tell those kids what they need to do and be.

That's from the 1800s.

I mean, what are you, what are you talking about?

Yeah.

We haven't gone past that to some degree.

Because they're parenting the way they were parented.

And my dad parented the way his parented him.

Now, he did make a change, which is great, because I think there was physical abuse.

That was common back then.

Common using a belt.

And I had the belt used on me.

And then my dad became enlightened, which I'm

wholly happy for.

Because he thought...

And in fact, as a principal of school, he stopped any corporal punishment

from school.

And that was common.

You could get paddled.

You could get, you know, and he went, I'm not going to do that, I'm just not going to do that.

So, I'm very thankful he did that.

Um,

with parents, name-calling, shaming, all of that,

it is a way to be powerful when you don't feel powerful.

And they don't know other ways to be empowered as a parent,

and they don't know other ways because they haven't learned any other ways.

They don't know that their sense of self and relationship is a way to have empowerment in a relationship with your kids.

They think you have to use this force,

you know, and in fact, there's a great book called Force, Power versus Force,

you know, and

they still practice the old force approach.

And it just isn't effective.

It is effective in the moment,

poorly effective in the long run.

Yeah, it made me rebel more, if anything.

Exactly.

It can get you to behave in a certain way, but is that all we're looking for?

When you look at the strictest parents, and then as soon as their kids get free in college, they just can't control it.

And that's the inevitable thing about kids: you can't control them forever.

Some parents will try, and narcissistic parents will definitely keep trying, and they will consider you not being controllable as unlovable.

You're not respecting me.

You're not being loyal.

You're not pleasing God because you're not following me.

There's all kinds of things that come as a result of that.

But it really comes out of them an unhealthy

view of relationships, life, and family dynamics.

Yeah.

That's what they were taught.

Have you ever seen a helicopter parent relationship with

all over the kids?

Have I ever seen?

Like,

yes.

They're that common, huh?

They're only common everywhere.

And then the helicopter parent is suffocating.

And it is the parent trying to live out their life through the kid because they don't know how to become themselves as a self-differentiated person.

So

I will become a self or a person through my children.

Yeah.

Good luck.

You see it in sports.

You see it in

music in every area.

I want you to be successful.

I want you to be wealthy.

I want you to be a celebrity.

I want you to be a politician.

I want you to be the best engineer.

I want you to be.

Why?

What is in this for you?

You know, what is in this for you as a parent?

Because they haven't found themselves.

And whenever we haven't found ourselves, we then have to borrow self from others.

And that includes our kids, friends, spouses.

We have to borrow self.

And that's not a healthy thing.

That is not a healthy thing.

I also see a lot of parents compare their kids almost like scorecards.

You know, it's common in the Asian culture.

Like, oh, what university did you get into?

What was your GPA?

That's right.

And that's what makes you successful as a person or

successful in life.

And success in life certainly can include financial, college.

I mean, I went to college.

I'm not against learning things and growing.

But

yeah, I was going to be a

study music for my mother and go to law school for my father.

Well,

what would I like?

You know, and if you notice, I'm not doing either of those right now.

Yeah.

Not that I don't enjoy music.

Not that I don't enjoy the law or don't enjoy politics.

I enjoy all that.

But

that isn't who I wanted to be.

A lot of kids go to university for their parents.

Oh,

absolutely.

Yeah, become doctors.

You need to go.

You need, well, I have a neurologist friend who became a neurologist because his father was a neurologist.

And he had to become a well-known and successful neurologist and a well-researched psychologist or neurologist.

But then he's going,

I'm not happy.

Wow.

And I go, I know.

You know, and that,

and I have this drive to have to do this.

And then after the parent or the parents no longer invest are invested in that endeavor, he's still in the middle of that

endeavor that was started by them and the grandparent who was a neurologist.

And he's still in that and going, I don't know how to be happy

because you got off going on this treadmill to please

you know, your family because there was no other options, medicine and neurology, and becoming a well-known researcher in the whole area of neurology but then you end up with feeling kind of empty because

who who am i in all this well you're not you you're right right you are living out the family role

and the family roles are powerful people pleasing is a dangerous one it's a dangerous dangerous one i had to get rid of that one it's a dangerous but that's a big leap

to not please your family and to not please your parents.

It is not please other people.

That's a not a lot of people can get there.

Whew, that's a dangerous, dangerous thing.

Entrepreneurship will do that to you.

You kind of have to slowly realize when you're your own boss that you come first.

You really do.

And coming first doesn't mean people don't matter.

It just means you can't make you last,

which is what I used to do.

and that's what many of us would do and and when i was a priest a bishop a pastor pastoral counselor but i was a priest and a bishop you know everybody else needed to come first

in fact in fact you know i think pastoring not for all pastors but many pastors it's paid codependency

and and that's the role that you're in

and um and it's really problematic it can be difficult to function in that way.

And then you kind of lose yourself in that whole process.

And then I began to go, wait a minute,

I can't keep doing this.

You know, there's something that is self-negating in this.

And that's not going to help me be me.

Of course, and I would say, well, I don't even know who me is.

Well, I would say.

People would say, well, who are you?

And I'd say, well, who do you want me to be?

That's That's the best thing I know to do.

You know, that's the best, it's the best approach.

So you don't even know yourself.

I don't know.

I don't know who that guy is.

And then I had to go hit bottom before I could say, okay, now I have a chance to be

who I want to be.

Yeah.

But it did take a crash to do that.

Wow.

And

sometimes we have to hit bottom.

Well, many people have to hit bottom before they can hit themselves.

A lot of people.

There's people in college right now that they don't even know themselves because they're just following what their parents are telling them to do.

And they follow in that and they feel, well, at least that's better than nothing.

But I'm saying, but why do you feel you're nothing?

You know, you don't have to do all of this.

Who do you want to be?

And I think in my way of thinking about growth or development in terms of family life and family dynamics is beginning of recognizing, getting out of the denial.

You've been in denial that you're not realizing your family or not really your own life.

Nostat.

This is a Bose moment.

You're 10 boring blocks from home until the beat drops in Bose clarity.

And the baseline transforms boring into maybe the best part of your day.

Your life deserves music.

Your music deserves Bose.

Shop Bose.com/slash Spotify.

This fall, explore California in a brand new Toyota hybrid.

From the stylish Camry to the adventure-ready RAV4 or the spacious Grand Highlander.

Every new Toyota comes with Toyota Care, a two-year complimentary scheduled maintenance plan, an exclusive hybrid battery warranty, and Toyota's legendary quality and reliability.

Visit your local Toyota dealer for a test drive.

Toyota, let's go places.

See your local Toyota Toyota dealer for hybrid battery warranty details.

Second stage is like

beginning to deal with the dynamics of the chaos and the dysfunctional life that you lived.

And then the third stage is getting the chaos out of you.

And that's kind of how I help people grow.

Yeah.

And because if you can get the chaos out of you, if you can get the family of origin out of you, what's left is you.

Then let's get the family out of you.

And it doesn't matter where you live, moving 2,000 miles away from your family doesn't get the family out of you.

Really?

I wish it did.

We would call that in the whole 12-step program and in alcohol treatment, and we would call that a geographical cure.

And people are always doing the geographical cure.

Well, then I just won't talk to my family.

Do you know that doesn't get your family out of you?

That just means you're not going to talk to your family.

I mean, which you can choose to do.

I mean, that's your right.

I mean, I can't keep you from doing that.

But don't think that cure is the cure.

That's all I.

You're just pushing it to the back.

You're just pushing it to the back and thinking that you have made a change.

And what you've actually done is just done the flip side of the coin.

Let's try to do something

that is

much more

self-focused so that you can decide for you who you want to be.

And who you want to be is not being an anti-something.

Oh, well, I'll just hate my family.

That'll make me me.

No, it just makes you a hating your family You.

I don't know how that makes you a you, but if you notice, you're still using the family as the foil.

Yeah, when are you going to be you?

And it doesn't mean being the anti-family to do that.

So we learn to be detached, we learn to grow, and we learn to be self-differentiated.

That I want to be me,

which means I am not you and you are not me.

And there's a lot of peace and health in that.

And so, when families go, well, well, why do you live your life that way?

Because I choose to.

You know, well, that's not right.

Guess what?

I am not you and you are not me.

It's amazing how that works.

We're different people.

We're different people.

But that illumination has not struck a lot of people.

A lot of division within families, whether it's politics or religion.

So many ways to divide a family.

So many ways.

And in fact, the whole

family dynamics is meant

for you not to do that.

You know, you need to become us.

What happens if I don't want to be?

Well, Well,

then

there will be consequences.

Yeah.

And

can I live through the consequences?

Can I do that?

And still be me.

And still not be a reactive me,

you know, and

when,

and I think there's a way to live that way.

And that's the life of self-differentiation, I believe.

That's the key to living a truly healthy life,

focusing on yourself and not absorbing the toxicity and dynamics of your family of origin and others.

Right.

And there's a way to do that.

That's what I try to help people to do.

That's what my 500 videos are about

over and over again.

I teach the same thing in every video.

I just have different topics.

So it's the same philosophy on each one.

Same philosophy all the way through.

Interesting.

Yes.

Yeah.

The reactive stuff is something I'm still working on.

I got anger issues.

I don't know if it's

childhood trauma or something.

Who knows?

Sure.

Sure.

Yeah.

That's something I, at least I'm aware now.

So like when something triggers me,

I'll feel the anger coming.

Before I would just lash out or internalize it, but at least now I could see it.

You know.

That's right.

And then you could, if you're interested, you, I also try to help people go

and work on

if you gave up the anger,

what would be the downsides?

I gave it up.

I don't see any downsides.

I know.

Anger is not really beneficial for most times.

No, it is a solution.

It is a solution.

If we gave up the anger,

what would be the problem that?

And everybody goes, oh, well, then I'd be happier.

I'd be healthier.

I'd be not angry.

I'd be, no, no, I understand all that.

I'm not denying any of that.

You would be, but that those upsides are not enough for you to change or let it go.

So we need to look at the downsides.

And so if I wave a magic wand and you're no longer angry, what would be the problems?

And there would be problems.

In other words, I may not feel safe.

I need this anger to protect myself.

I need this anger

because I don't know how to be myself without being angry.

So I need that anger.

I learned that angry response growing up.

It's my way of staying balanced.

Now, it's not a great way, but it's the way I learned how to do that.

And

yeah, if, or if I didn't have this anger, I would just be weak.

No, no, anger doesn't make you powerful.

It actually takes away from you being powerful, actually.

Really?

Oh, yeah, yeah.

That's anger.

Anger is a way to be powerful without being powerful.

That is an interesting concept.

Because when people are at the gym, they try to get angry so they could lift more, right?

Exactly.

And

many people, that's not the way to lift more.

And

now, does

anger have a certain

umph to it?

Well, of course it does.

But are there different ways to get oomph

without going the angry route?

And

I think, oh, yes, there are many ways to that.

There are options with that.

And I think for me, and I was angry, even though I'm a nice guy,

I like other people, I love people,

but that doesn't mean I wasn't angry.

And I was angry about my lot in life and feeling guilty and ashamed and unworthy.

I was very angry about that.

And to give up that anger felt like I was giving up the only self I had.

Well,

if you give up that angry approach, you may find there are other ways to be a self

without being angry.

And I'm not against anger.

I'm not against, but usually anger is out of it comes out of our reactivity.

And

that was in programmed long ago.

And so reactivity

can be fueled by anger or it's noticeable by anger.

And

so I think there's ways to discover what's underneath that anger.

Yeah.

You mentioned earlier a connection between workaholism and narcissism.

Could you explain that?

Because I work really hard, so I'm curious.

Many of us do.

And certainly I've been an alcoholic.

I've been a workaholic.

I don't like alcohol enough to be an alcoholic.

But I'm sure I could work on it.

But I don't think that's the best thing to do.

Any ism

has

a narcissistic side.

And so workaholism or working all the time

kind of denies the true self.

And I'm not against working hard.

I'm not against working well, working efficiently, working hard at things.

It's just that

working

can be an alternative to self.

And

it's okay.

You're free to do that.

But you can be a true self and work hard.

It's just that working is not a replacement for self.

It just never will be.

And I know that firsthand.

I mean, I know that very much.

Burnout, right?

Oh, burnout.

Absolutely.

And if I just work harder,

then

if I work more,

what will you be?

More successful.

If you're more successful,

what will you be?

Happier.

If I am, it, and the thing is, that's usually a myth.

Yeah, I never, never.

It doesn't come true.

And I'm not against success.

I'm not against money.

I'm not against entrepreneurial life.

I'm not against working hard.

It's just that

it's not the way to do it.

Definitely.

It isn't the way to do it.

No amount of money

leads to happiness.

It just doesn't.

It doesn't reward you in those ways.

And

I think that...

Right, workaholism has that certain narcissistic

part in there because

I want to,

I'm trying to

work hard

for the purpose of what,

you know, and that's the,

you know, and can you be successful while truly being yourself?

Yes,

you can.

If, but if you take the distraction of workaholism, if you take the distraction road,

you'll miss your true road.

I could see that.

A lot of my friends who are workaholics, I have them take the dark triad test, and they all score high in narcissism.

So there's definitely a link.

There's definitely a link.

Yeah, they're working through some traumas.

They're working through their traumas.

And in fact,

I'll work harder.

I will work harder so I don't have to resolve these traumas.

That's what I did for sure.

I work that personally.

Absolutely.

I'll become better at this.

I'll go get this degree.

I'll go get that degree.

I'll go work harder at being that.

If I have more degrees, that will somehow make me somebody.

No,

it will make you very tired.

And will, uh, and it will make you, you will have more data, but you may not have more self.

Data and data,

money, self,

data, money, knowledge does not equal a true self.

But I'm not against any of those things.

But it's not the way to those things.

Yeah, you need to work on yourself to

be successful.

In my eyes these days, you need good self-awareness, not just money, not just physical health.

You need it all.

Right.

And I believe it's possible to,

you know, really,

how would I say

the way to

true

self,

becoming a self is much more powerful.

And then you can direct how do you want to be?

What do you want to be?

And that doesn't mean you

stop searching after

things that are important, and money will follow,

and success will follow.

And I think for me, I really did decide: okay, after my crash,

okay, now I have the chance to,

who do I want to be?

Bringing about yourself.

Right.

Yeah.

Right.

Who do I want to be?

And I don't care what anybody thinks.

So let me put out this, this information and material and videos and

those things

so that that will be more important for me to do that.

Well done.

Now you now you're here 500 videos later.

What's next for you?

A book.

And the book isn't,

it is for me, but it isn't for me.

A book for me is to take 45 years of

experience

and

offer that to other people.

And so I'm hoping to accomplish that.

So Jerry, anything else you want to close off with here before we wrap up?

I think one of the things I discovered, and one of the things that comes with

a family systems approach to growth and healing and trauma recovery

has to do with

how you deal with feelings

and identifying feelings.

And

one of the things we teach is the importance of learning when it is:

are these feelings your true feelings?

Are these feelings systems feelings?

They're feelings that you are supposed to feel on queue

because you have been taught that or you learn that growing up.

For example, with my mother,

my mother would, for example, want me to,

Jerry, why don't you get, why is your hair so long?

Why haven't you gotten a haircut?

Guess what I would feel?

Sure.

Shame and guilt.

I still get hit with that one from my mother.

There we go.

Those are systems feelings.

They're not my true feelings.

They are systems feelings.

And

they are what I'm supposed to feel in this situation.

And I feel it on queue,

but I don't have to.

And I can learn to identify the difference between my true feelings and systems feelings.

And if somebody, if your boss says, you know, why are you doing it this way?

Or your parents saying, why are you doing it this way?

We can feel systems feelings of of shame and guilt

because that's what we're supposed to feel.

When in actuality,

feelings,

we can gain more power

over ourselves

by learning what

is the difference between true feelings and systems feelings.

And we can also let go of systems feelings.

Like,

you mean I can let go of shame and guilt?

Yeah,

you really can let go of that.

But there is a downside to letting go of that.

Your family may not be happy with that.

Others may not be happy with that.

Well,

that can be freeing and liberating.

And so when I begin to talk to people and work with people,

they'll say, I just feel such guilt and shame.

Are you ready to let go of that?

Well, I've been ready for a long time.

No.

Are you ready to let go of that?

Do you want to let go of that now?

Now, you know, there will be some downsides if you do that.

Okay.

And like with my own mother and relationship, I remember dealing with, if I stop feeling shame and guilt,

what would be the downside?

I'd be happy.

Everything would be great.

No,

I may discover

that

if I give up this shame and guilt,

What kind of relationship then would we have?

That's pretty frightening.

That may be scary,

but it may be the new beginnings to having a different relationship with other people and with your parents and with your family.

And I believe that's very important

to learn to let go of that guilt and shame.

And I think it can be transformative to do that.

I love that.

Jerry, where can people find you, learn from you, and get some advice from you?

They can go to my website, Jerry Wise Relationship Systems.

They can go to my YouTube channel,

free videos,

out

galore.

And I do present a lot of that information because I wanted to give back.

for all those people who helped me through my difficult time and learning to self-differentiate.

And I think that I do a lot of training and teaching there.

I have some training that's free that you can take advantage of, learning to become the self you were never allowed to be.

And then I have the program, The Road to Self, which is a more intense program and my 45 years of learning that I'm offer to you at a very modest

fee to do the the road to self program.

I love it.

We'll link everything below.

Thanks for coming on, Jerry.

Thank you, Sean.

Thank you for offering.

Absolutely.

Take flight back to Indiana.

Thank you.

All right, check them out, guys.