Bek Lover Vs. Michael Jones: Was It All a Lie? Hidden Truth About Faith and History | DSH #1573

Of mass destruction, right?

One million people died.

I hated Saddam Hussein.

He oppressed the Kurds.

He gassed them with nerve gas.

He was horrific.

Who put these people in power?

Totally agreed because you said you want Christians and Muslims to work together.

The problem is, when we go into the data, it is not the Christians' fault.

99% of the time, overwhelmingly, this is coming from Islam.

And they get death threats all the time from Muslims.

How can we work together when people on your camp say they want to join my camp and then people on your camp say they should be killed?

Okay, guys, we got a friendly little debate here today, conversation, debate.

We got Beck Lover, returning guest, and a new guest to the show, Michael Jones.

Thank you both of you for coming, especially you, Michael.

It's your anniversary.

So appreciate the time, man.

Yeah, thanks for having me.

Happy anniversary, brother.

Appreciate it.

Thanks for coming.

Yeah.

And I think the core of this will be just talking about how Christians and

Muslims can work together, right?

That's where we should start this thing.

First and foremost, I want to to start the debate.

I even want to use the word discussion

to clarify, I think, a lot of things that are perpetrated in the media, okay?

That want to convince the world that Christians and Muslims are enemies and they should kill each other.

And I believe there is an agenda to create a lot of hatred between the two faiths.

And the word infidel is thrown around all the time in the media.

It's thrown around all the time in the news.

And I want to, on behalf of the Muslim world, clarify that nowhere in the Quran does it say that Christians are infidels.

It's actually the opposite.

It gives them a protected class known as the people of the book.

Anyone that received revelation before the Prophet Muhammad, whether it was through Moses, Psalms of David, the spoken gospel of Jesus Christ, because he did not leave a written book during his lifetime.

And he did not leave it compiled during his time, but his word, which is the gospel, the Injil as Muslims call it, that it is the opposite of what is propagated throughout a lot of history and in recent history.

So in the context of the Holy Quran, infidels are specifically being mentioned as the pagan Arabs that were attacking the Prophet Muhammad.

And in the essence of the book, which says to speak softly to the Christian, for they are the closest to you in faith.

Speak kindly to them, for they are the closest to you in faith.

And amongst them you will find men of knowledge.

So in that essence, I don't want this to be as I've seen you guys have been mentioning some of these debates and the way people go back and forth.

I want to speak kindly to one another.

I know we're not going to agree on everything, specifically topics of divinity, which book might be more authentic and things of that nature.

But my faith does not command me to hate Christians.

My religion does not command me to be aggressive towards Christians.

My prophet, the final prophet, we believe, the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, did not command us to have animosity towards Christians.

Actually, on the contrary, he commanded his first followers to seek refuge as they were being oppressed by the infidels during his time, which were the pagan Arabs, which were his tribesmen, which was his own family.

And they were persecuted for a decade.

And at that time, when it became very hostile in Mecca, he commanded his followers to go to the ancient kingdom of Absinia, and they were saved by a Christian kingdom.

How can our founder of our faith send us to seek refuge to Christians, and then the world wants to classify them as infidels on our behalf?

That is 100% historically inaccurate,

and it's not true.

We are not enemies.

And my philosophy is we both believe Jesus Christ is the anointed one.

That's what the word Messiah means.

Doesn't mean divine.

He's the Messiah chosen by God for a specific mission.

And we both believe, depending on what denomination, because there's many denominations, but throughout all of Islam and the majority of Christianity, they believe that there will be an Antichrist.

Jesus Christ will come back with all his glory and defeat him.

And that,

and my philosophy, if we both believe he's coming back,

Let the master tell us who was right or wrong.

Let him tell us, us, you guys were wrong here, you're wrong here.

Now, I understand that might be the difference between eternal salvation,

whether you accept him as your Lord and Savior, or as the Son of God, as the Catholics call him, or a prophet of God as the Muslims call him.

I understand that.

I understand that I am risking my eternal soul based on your doctrines if I do not accept him as my Lord and Savior.

I don't come from a religious family.

I was actually, my family was against me when I initially became, you know, religious.

So I just think that for the betterment of humanity, we can all wait and be patient because I think patience is the greatest virtue, especially for people of faith.

We learned this from all the prophets of God.

Greatest example is Joseph, peace and blessings be upon him.

What a story of patience.

Someone that did nothing wrong,

thrown down a wall by his own brothers.

And we all know the story because it's the same in both.

So my philosophy is: let's celebrate what we have in common, and we don't need to kill and hate each other and allow instigators to take two of the largest fates on earth, which I think benefits no one except the godless,

except those that want chaos on the earth, to go at it.

So I think we can wait for the master to return because he is a master sent by God, right?

A man of knowledge, of a perfect human being.

He can tell us who was right or wrong.

We don't need to wipe each other out with swords and guns and bullets.

And we all saw what happened to Charlie Kirk.

And even though I received a lot of animosity for showing my condolences and all he did for the last couple of months was bash my faith

and I showed compassion, even at my own detriment, even from so-called Muslims.

That's the Islam that I practice and I believe.

And I also believe that the Prophet Muhammad taught us.

So I want to extend peace and blessings upon you and all Christians worldwide.

Yeah, I appreciate that.

Let me just say my piece here.

I wish more Muslims were like you.

I truly do.

Unfortunately, that's just not what we get online from the Christian side, just in general.

And like, if

this was what we were seeing with Islam most of the time, I probably would not be doing a lot of stuff now on Islam.

But this is unfortunately not what we're getting.

I mean, just look at the numbers.

It's what we see coming.

You may not see it for coming from you because you're on that side, but we on the Christian side are getting an entirely different story.

And you said you speak for the Muslim world.

I wish you did, man.

I really, because I've seen your stuff.

I've seen your shorts.

You're a good man.

But there's so much more there that needs to be discussed.

You mentioned the Quran.

Surah 98 says Christians are the worst of creatures.

Surah 929.

Where does that pull it up, please?

Surah 98.

How do I spell that?

Surah.

S-U-R.

It says they're the worst of what?

S-U-R.

98.

S-U-R-A-H.

A-H-98.

At least IS-6.

It says we're the worst.

Surah 9.29, Muhammad says, I have been commanded to fight those who do not believe in Allah and the Messenger and Allah.

It's talking about Christians.

It has eight verses.

You said verse 6.

Lord, verse 6, yeah.

And what is it?

It's pulled up right here.

Indeed, those who disbelieved among the people of the book.

They are the worst of creatures.

They are the worst of creatures.

And in what context is that?

It's talking about the people of the book and Christians.

Yeah.

People that may have altered it, people that are not following the original teachings.

I know what it says.

Okay.

Let me try to pull up the whole verse.

Let's just talk about this a little bit more, though.

And there was tribes that were very hostile hostile towards him.

Yeah.

They'd like to mention

the Battle of Khyber

and how he wiped out a tribe, right?

He wiped out the entire tribe.

He did a lot of that stuff.

Yeah.

Okay.

This is the full verse right here.

So I can't see that.

Oh, you can't see that?

No, it's too small.

I'm trying to zoom in.

There's that.

I mean, there's issues here, but let's just look at the way things manifest in reality here.

I mean, there's been studies done on this.

There was a great study done by Davis Brown.

I've cited numerous times.

He looked at three religions, Buddhism, Islam, and Christianity.

Buddhism was non-significant.

It didn't correlate with war and conflict at all.

Christianity negatively associated.

Islam was positively associated.

And this was after controlling for variables, like influence from outside.

So we can cite anecdotal evidence all day.

But when we look at the raw data, we're seeing two different pictures emerge.

Again, I wish more Muslims were like you.

But there's a lot of cleaning of house.

It needs to happen on both sides.

But also, when the data comes out, there's definitely more positive benefits coming out of the Christian world.

And we have reasons to be alarmed.

I mean,

in a what way, though, when you say, you know, your book says, judge a tree by its fruits.

How are you neglecting Christian history?

Oh, I don't.

I mean, throughout history, if we pull up on Chat GBT right now

and we take into account the way you guys want to look at Muslims, in my opinion, what certain leaders did or this did or that did, you have instances in the Old Testament.

Moses was commanded to wipe out the Israelites for worshiping the calf.

He was a prophet of God.

He was commanded by the Lord to take those who broke the commandment, committed idolatry.

Now, in this context, I got to admit, I don't know 100%

the full context right now, just off the top of my head.

But to my knowledge, God also says in the Holy Quran, there's no sin upon the Christian or the or the Sabian if they follow that which was revealed to them.

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2256 says, there is no compulsion in religion.

Anyone that forces someone to become a Muslim has violated the Quran itself.

So I want to comment on that.

Okay.

And that goes for the Ottoman Empire, which attacked my people, conquered my nation.

For 600 years, we were under them.

They broke the tenements of Islam.

I'll call them out here in front of the whole world.

They sure did.

Okay.

They changed the Hagi Sophia into a mosque.

That should have never been done.

That's true.

Okay.

So I don't think it's the way you're taking it in this context.

I believe it's if you're hostile and you're in a state of war and they're attacking you.

To give the example to the Jewish tribe, which I believe was the, I can't pronounce it correctly, the Kornesh.

They had not the Quraysh that he was a part of, the Quranesh.

I think you pull up the Jewish tribe.

Just say, which tribe did Muhammad have a military, which tribe did Muhammad have a military alliance with?

It's in the life of Ibn Asaq, I believe, yeah.

But let's start with the.

Let's finish the point.

So in that capacity, he's being attacked by his own people.

Okay.

And where's the name?

Just pull it up, brother.

I'm not a scholar on his level.

And again, please double check everything I say.

You have a responsibility as anyone that disseminates information, I believe, from a cosmic perspective, from God's perspective, to pass inaccurate information.

You're responsible for what you pass on to every person you affect.

So please question everything, whether you're a Muslim or a Christian, that you hear from me or you or anybody.

It's saying he had three alliance all three major jewish tribes of men and what happened was

even in the middle so we have an alliance the pagan arabs are attacking okay we come to you and say hey we're not going to fight no we're not going to fight as a matter of fact if you get attacked we're going to defend you we're going to defend you mid-battle they betray and turn on the early muslims and try to wipe them out What is the punishment for treason even in America today, Sean Kelly?

What is the punishment for treason?

Treason.

What is it?

Is it life in prison?

It's execution, up to execution.

Really?

That's even in American law.

So if me and you are in war, even in the streets, even in the code of the criminal, we're two gangs.

We team up.

If I violate and help an enemy gang attack, guess what?

Now we're enemies.

I mean, it is what it is.

The punishment for treason is death.

Period.

God commanded, like I said earlier, He made Moses take out the Israelites that were worshiping the calf.

Why did he do that for?

So let's talk about it.

Did he show them mercy or did they violate a poor fundamental like the Ten Commandments?

I got you.

Let's go back to a lot of this.

There's a huge difference here in terms of the way this is set up.

For example, there's a concept of abrogation in Islam.

So you take the verse you mentioned, there's no compulsion in religion.

Ibn Kathir, one of the early Islamic scholars, said that many scholars have said that's been abrogated by what we see in Surah 9 about continual fighting against the people of the book until they willingly submit and pay the jizya.

That's a problem right there because the Quran is, there's an order to it, a chronological order that's actually not in currently.

But there are places where we see abrogation happening.

And then what has the last one that the early scholars said, it was Suriname, one of the most violent chapters in the Quran.

And Muhammad, yeah, he did a lot of things.

We can read about him in the life of Ibn Asaq, but this is not all good.

He tortured a guy, had fire on his chest because he wanted to know where the treasure was.

And then he went and took his wife and turned him into his own wife.

I believe her name was, I forget her name exactly, but also there were he had people executed for speaking out against Islam.

There was an old man who wrote a poem against Islam, mentioned in the life of Ibn Asaq, had him killed.

Then a woman also wrote a poem telling people to stand up against Islam.

He told her to get killed.

And when his companion came back, he said, two goats won't butt heads about her.

This is not the same as what we see in the Bible with Jesus saying, Father, forgive them.

They know not what they do on the cross, and him laying his life down for them.

And why didn't his followers get the message loud and clear?

No one has lost more life.

His early followers did doubt.

Definitely.

More people, yeah.

No single religion, when you take into account the Roman Empire,

modern history has lost more life than from quote-unquote Christians, period.

What's the evidence?

Through colonialism.

All of the New World.

But like, what's the actual data?

But the actual data is that they came to the New World, for example.

We can use America as an example, but wiped out the natives, forced them into christianity so this is this is a huge misconception all of south america huge misconception all of south america pull it up no here's the way all of south america tom holland talks about this in his book opinion so for example he notes that when the colonizers were going there they were quoting aristotle's or justification nothing remained of them in de las casas de las casas barter bartoloma de las casas i believe his name started quoting the bible to get them to stop the idea that colonialism was the result of christianity robert woodbury has published research on this it was protestant missionaries creating colonial reform, pushing back against this stuff.

I would not say something bad happens in the Middle East, therefore it's necessarily Islamic branch of Christianity's only following.

Hold on, let me finish.

Let me finish.

You can't say something bad happens in the European or Christian world, therefore it's Christianity's fault.

We need actual data to connect the dots here.

So I can go through the data of colonialism.

It's Protestant missionaries, Catholic missionaries, pushing back against colonialism.

Catholicism is the mother of Christianity.

Exactly.

And the mother of the colonialism is the mother of Christianity is the Roman Catholic Church.

It's the one that spreads your faith throughout the world.

It's the one that put the books together and then other books came from it.

The Protestant book took out six books that the Catholics still have today.

Those are not translations anymore.

Those are completely different versions.

So for you to even attack the Catholic Church is the same way you're trying to attack.

I wasn't attacking you.

Well, you don't agree with what they did, right?

Agree with which what are you saying?

To say that the religion wasn't spread at all through violence

is a complete

inaccuracy i'm talking about a variable hundreds of millions of people who lost their lives you just brought up the ottoman empire and you said hey they were going against islam because they were doing that thing like that and i'm falling a ma'am

but now when you're talking about the catholic church the catholic church is just responsible it's christians fault they're the mother colonialism they're the mother of christianity i could say they are the mother of the early abbasid or the early umid caliphate spreading through violence i mean robert hoyland talks about this in his book did they massacre when they took jerusalem yes they did when robert hoyland talks about it.

When did they massacre?

4,000 Christians were massacred.

When?

When they took Jerusalem.

When Omar took Jerusalem?

Yes.

4,000?

I don't read that anywhere in the history.

We need it in God's private sector.

I know that they negotiated.

No.

I know that he got it.

I know that Omar didn't pray in the holy church of the Sepulchre.

He made sure the Muslims didn't change it into a mosque.

They took the commander of the army named Sergius and they put him in a dead camel and he suffocated to death.

Then they massacred Christians throughout the Palestinian world.

Who's the one that handed the keys to him?

That's not the person I read in history.

Pull up who handed over Jerusalem to Omar al-Khattab.

Listen, this is all in Robert Horland's book, In God's Path.

He documents this.

This is the history.

So all the greatest historians say something different, but this guy writes a book.

It's not just him.

I could also quote Tom Holland in The Shadow of the Sword, for example.

I could quote Clifford Backman in Medieval Worlds, or in his book.

That's his book, The Medieval Worlds.

So this is, I could talk about numerous historians.

I could bring Deshaun Anthony, Patricia Crohn.

This is what historians talk about.

Why is it that wherever Christians went, no one remained of the natives, whether it was their names, like all of Latin America, even their names, their language was wiped out,

they were forced to increase Christianity.

This is a fact through taxes.

It's all here, brother.

This is common history, simple history.

You can get into complicated books and people.

God didn't make religion that you need to be.

a master to even understand it.

He made it simple so that anyone can understand it.

So I just want to remind you.

So the same way you try to to hold Islam in this light, if you look in the mirror, you have nothing left to talk about.

You really don't.

So once again, I'm sorry.

Even as African Americans in America, a lot of them were actually brought here.

They weren't brought.

A lot of them were Muslim.

We can all go watch the movie, you know, roots.

Don't you pray to know Allah?

The master don't want you.

You guys can't agree on his language.

You can't agree on his skin color.

If I've got five Christians together, they would say he's white, he's black, he's brown.

I'm talking core fundamentals.

You want to talk about other things?

I'm talking about which religion is more authentic, which book is historically more accurate or preserved in a better fashion.

You yourself are, I don't know what you call the term.

What's the term that you say you are?

Christian.

Christian, Christian,

post-millennial, you were saying to me, outside, yeah, that's my eschatology.

Okay, that's different.

And a lot of what you were telling me is not what the majority of Christians believe, that you don't believe the Antichrist.

I don't know what you're explaining.

What I'm saying is that these are differences of opinion, okay?

But if we look at core fundamentals,

what I thought we're going to discuss today is who is Jesus Christ?

Is he what the Christians believe he was or the Muslims believe?

Which book is preserved more authentically?

In and out of context, I can play that game all day with the Bible.

Do you believe in incest?

Let me get back to the context.

Why does the Bible say Loc committed incest?

Does that mean Christianity, they believe in incest?

No.

Okay, but...

Okay, hold on.

We're getting way off topic.

But you've interrupted me enough, so I would like to get back off the topic.

I'm sorry.

I apologize.

You said that wherever Christianity spread, the native populations were destroyed.

They were.

That is completely false.

Modern historians now point out one of the main problems in the Americas was the introduction of diseases that wiped out 80 to 90% of the natives because they just didn't have the immunity.

The Europeans didn't know what was going on.

So

there was no violence.

Hold on, there you go.

Let me finish my point here.

Okay.

When the Puritans came over, they created the written language of Algonquians so that they could learn to read.

more written, Christians have made more written languages for people around the world than any other faith.

They were not wiping out people.

Meanwhile, when Islam spread, that's exactly what happened in the early Uamid Caliphate.

Entire people groups were wiped out or were slowly assimilated into becoming Arab and specifically into that position.

So this is a problem.

So we can look at the actual historians.

And I want to remind people, what I'm doing is I'm saying, here is what the historians say.

And unfortunately,

no, what the your historians say.

Well, then you quote some.

Well, it's real simple.

Anyone can go and do the research.

We've all heard the history.

Two to 300 million people lost their lives, whether it was through disease or war, and they didn't come peacefully, the Spanish and the Europeans and everywhere they went.

They didn't come peacefully, okay?

And everyone, not a single person, didn't remain that became Christian from the natives.

That's a fact.

Muslims controlled Spain for how many years?

Over four or five hundred years?

Mm-hmm.

Today they're the most Catholic country in the world.

That's because of the Reconquista.

When they were in control of Spain,

they were using coercive tactics, as Richard Bachman points out, or sorry, Clifford Bachman points out in his book, The Worlds of Medieval Europe.

They were trying to Islamicize the region, and they were going into the Christian regions and pillaging and taking slaves.

And I don't think...

And that launched the Reconquista because the Christians were sick and tired of being oppressed and treated horribly.

Richard Backman even says in his book, The Worlds of Medieval Europe, Muslims started fleeing north because they thought they were going to get a better life up there than how they're being treated by the Al-Mohads, for example, or the Amorid, what is the Amorvid Caliphate or something like that.

So this is, we cannot whitewash this history here and pretend like it's always good.

Meanwhile, when Christianity spread, it's always bad.

History is telling a completely different story.

So you mentioned incest in the Bible.

I want to go back to that.

Descriptive versus the...

And I don't believe that happened, by the way.

That's fine if you're not.

No, but it's mentioned when they're talking about the prophet Lot, that he was made drunk by them and slept with his daughters to save humanity.

And we point out in the Bible that's not descriptive.

And I'm not saying you don't.

I'm saying you brought it up as an attack here just because it's an

attack.

I'm showing you.

Our Bible documents sin so that we learn not to be like that.

Lot is an example for us to learn by.

We don't have to sit here and defend all the immoral actions of the Old Testament.

And you know why?

Because the Old Testament is constantly saying, look how this man was set up, then he failed.

Look how this man set up and then he failed.

It's pointing towards the future.

Do you accept the Old Testament as a book of God?

Towards the perfect man, Jesus, who's going to come, because Romans 3, 23 says, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

So yes, Lot sinned.

He did horrible things.

When Muslims bring this up, it just shows they don't understand what's in our Bible and what it means and how we apply it.

So we cannot be uncharitable in how we understand the people.

Do you accept the Old Testament as a book of God?

Yes.

Is it a book of God?

Yes.

Okay.

When we talk about, so I don't, I want to shift.

Okay, so we're more violent.

You're more violent.

I don't, I think anyone can do simple research and see even on chat gbt if you pull it up how many people lost their lives whether through christianity or christian states or kingdoms compared to muslims and i would remind i guarantee you please look at the research okay or research let the world look i'm gonna say my point you're gonna say your point the audience can go do their research real simple we don't have to spend hours on this

okay nothing has remained of their languages Nothing has remained of even their own names, Cortez, Hernandez.

These are not the names they had in the native lands.

Chachu Batisti said, depends on the time period and region you're studying, most scholars conclude that religion itself is not the root cause.

Power, land, resources, and politics are usually the drivers with religion used as justification.

Probably getting that information from a great book written by William Kavanaugh.

You would probably enjoy it.

It's called The Myth of Religious Violence.

And he goes through and focuses mainly on European conflicts and notes, we cannot really say that religion is the main driving force between all this harm and violence.

However, other historians.

I don't think Christianity teaches that.

So I want to clarify.

So I want to make a point here.

I don't think any of these doctrines teach that.

Even Hinduism, which I don't believe in the caste system, but there's this essence of treating human beings the right way and blah, blah, blah.

I don't think any of these faiths teach you to oppress people, kill people, and massacre people.

There's evidence of this throughout all religions, but I don't blame the doctrine.

And I feel like when it comes from your end, I'll sit there and defend Christianity in the sense saying, I don't believe that's what Christ taught.

I know human beings

make mistakes, leaders, kings, 100%.

I think anytime the prophet had a conflict, it was justified.

So do you think?

And I think when people do their homework, they'll see that that is the case.

So let's...

I don't think it's in Islam's doctrine to force conversion when the book, yes, was there instances here and there?

Absolutely, but not on the scale of Christianity.

So then whether you say it was political or not political, that's a whole nother argument.

And that's opinion.

We look at what?

The fruits.

that are bared.

How many people became Christian?

Why did they become Christian?

What was the economic situation?

What was the military involved?

How many people lost their lives, whether it was through the smallpox or not?

It was a direct correlation to those Christian invaders conquering territories all over the world.

Period.

Christian invaders?

Let me finish.

And let me finish it.

And there's instances of that in Islam.

I have a question.

So it's not, you guys are like this.

And then you ignore the fact that estimates say between 200 and 400 million people lost their lives since 1492 because of Christian status.

I have a question.

Did the Muslims start World War I?

What did they do?

Inquisition?

How were Jews?

You guys do.

You are generalizing and you're saying, hey,

what wouldn't do?

No, I'm citing actual studies here and actual historians on books here.

Now, let me ask you a question.

Should apostates in Islam be killed?

Because according to Sahih al-Bakari, yes.

That's violent.

You can't just leave Islam, according to the main Hadith collection in Islam.

Sahih al-Bakari is very clear.

There are numerous Hadiths where Muhammad said apostates of Islam should be killed.

Do you agree

that Islam should be killed?

There's no forcing to go into the faith, right?

There is no compulsion in religion.

If you go in and then defect, it's almost like treason.

So apostate should be killed.

Okay.

I don't agree with it in today's day and age, but maybe at that time because of treachery, there was hypocrites.

People got, you know, like that tribe.

They had an alliance with them.

They broke the alliance.

So I think it was to prevent that type of treachery.

I don't think it's necessarily needed in today's world.

Where is the hadith that says it was just because of that reason and it's not a universal ruling i'm not saying it's not a universal ruling either that's violent though that that that leads to violence that leads to oppression and discrimination in islam because of that doctrine that apostates of islam should be killed how can you say islam is not violent when that is in an integral that's an integral part of islam both your lord

the god that you believe in and the god that i believe in

old testament you can't deny that book came from him he ordered blood he ordered the killing killing of the Israelites because they broke the commandment.

So you can't say that that book came from God and that was okay, but then all of a sudden he changed his mind.

Like you guys, like back and forth, back and forth.

There's his rulings.

It is what it is.

If that's what Islam says and that's what the prophet said, then that's what it is.

And the reason people can dig in deeper to it, but no one's forcing you to.

And if they did force you,

they broke the book.

They broke the commandment.

So this is the same thing.

But as far as shedding blood, that exists throughout the Bible.

Yes, in the Quran, war is a reality of life.

My family was massacred in the Kosovo War in 1998 by Orthodox Christians.

I never once in my entire life, and even on this discussion we're having, ever blamed Christianity.

Hold up, hold up.

You have said a lot of things that are implying Christianity is responsible for the people.

What I'm saying is

I don't blame Christianity for what the Serbians did to my people.

You guys want to blanket everything people do and say it's because of Islam and its doctrine.

And that's not true.

So I specifically said earlier that I'm not going to just point to a conflict in the Middle East and say, therefore, Islam's fault.

Meanwhile, you're looking at

colonialism and saying Christianity.

You're looking at things the Catholic Church said and saying, Christianity.

So you are generalizing and trying to blame.

Meanwhile, let me finish because you've interrupted me so many times at this point.

Calm down.

I'm cool.

Okay.

You're going to let me finish now?

Yes, sir.

Go ahead.

All right.

I have a little ADHD HD too, so forgive me.

Meanwhile.

Meanwhile, I'm looking at what specific studies say, what specific books have pointed out.

I'm not saying everything that bad happens in the Middle East or in the Islamic world is Islam's fault.

However, that doesn't change that it is a contributing factor.

There are violent things in Islam, like murder for apostates, like Surah 929, which calls for perpetual war against the non-Muslim world.

Islam, the early scholars divided all of Islam into two houses, the house of Islam and the house of war.

There's a reason the non-Muslim world is called the house of war.

Again, I'm not saying you are a problem.

I'm saying if you go back to your house, if you turn around and you see all the Muslims on your side, there is a lot of violence.

There's a lot of call for issues that we Christians see that you may not be seeing.

What I want you back to see is I want you to wake up to what's going on on your side because I don't think you see it.

I think you're thinking like a Christian, and I think that's great.

But turn around and get all your other Muslims to think like Christians because we want.

less violence.

We do pray for our enemies.

We are called to be persecuted for his name's sake.

But however, hold on, you said you'd let me finish.

Okay.

However, when we turn to look at the Muslim world, past 25 years, over 60,000 Nigerian Christians have been slaughtered by Islamist groups.

The 2024 Global Terrorism Index, all the major terrorist groups are Islamists.

They're constantly targeting Christians, persecuting them in the Middle East.

Who profits?

I have one more thing to say, then you can go.

Okay, go ahead.

Grimm and Finky have done a study.

Okay.

Their book is called The Price of Freedom Denied.

They have found in their research that in the Islamic world, Shia or Sunni, very low, very low persecution.

People of the book, apostates from Islam, over four times the level of discrimination and persecution coming from Muslims.

This is a real problem here.

I'd love to sit here and say with you, yes, Christians and Muslims can work together.

We should be on the same page.

And I wish that was the case.

And I wish more Muslims were like you.

Unfortunately, the people in your own house are not.

And they're constantly attacking us, persecuting us, slaughtering us.

There was just a guy in France named Asher who has just had a machete in his throat the other day in France.

He was a refugee from Iraq.

They just killed him for preaching Christianity.

How am I supposed to say we can work together when this is what happens day to day?

Okay.

So I think, you know, you simplify it a lot, in my opinion.

You know, you got to look at the last hundred years since the fall of the Ottoman Empire.

Who installed these leaders in the quote-unquote Muslim countries, which I believe many of them don't even operate by true Sharia law?

Okay.

Who put Bashar al-Assad in power, who wasn't even a mainstream Muslim?

He was an Alawite, which is

a sect of Shia and a sect of that, right?

This is the guy that controlled Syria.

Syria fell again.

Who did the West allow to walk in there and take control of the country?

A former ISIS member.

You explained to me how that makes sense.

Leave religion out of it, just as an American.

We have propped up Saddam Hussein.

We propped up all these people where for the most part, throughout Muslim history, there wasn't this persecution the way you guys try to paint it today.

And when we look at your way, my friend, we compare your history to ours.

I don't care what you say, people can go do the homework themselves.

The bottom line is, I condemn all of them.

The West is the reason they're in power.

One million people are dead in Iraq for what?

Weapons of mass destruction, right?

Did they find them?

1 million people died.

I hated Saddam Hussein.

He oppressed the Kurds.

He gassed gassed them with nerve gas.

He was horrific.

Donald Romes felt like this, shaking his hand.

Who put these people in power?

So-called Christian nations.

I don't think they're operating by Christianity.

24 years of war, brother.

Millions and millions of people dead.

These new leaders that are running

these countries are definitely more Muslims have died from ISIS than anybody else.

That's a fact.

You can Google it, search it.

Fact.

Any Muslim that

persecutes a Christian should burn in hell, bro.

Simple.

I'll say it right here in front of the whole world.

Okay?

But it's not as easy.

And again, I'm not pointing out things to pick on you guys, but I believe there is this like, oh, this is the way you guys are.

And you really don't look at your own house.

If we look at European history, leave Islam out of it.

Approximately 4 million Christians, whether you call them Protestant or Catholic, took each other out.

Two supposed followers of Jesus Christ.

Sunni and Shia did the same thing.

I'm not going to deny that.

But were they following Christianity?

If they both believe in Jesus, why are they wipe 4 million people bad because of that?

Approximately.

Can double check my facts.

Sunni and Shia killed each other too.

Iraq versus Iran.

None of them are following Islam or Christianity, in my opinion.

And that's been my message to the whole world.

That is my message to the whole world.

So it depends.

If you're going to use this filter, use it yourselves.

You know, use it yourselves.

Look in the mirror too.

I blame the people, not the doctrine.

I've never blamed Christianity for what's happened.

I don't blame it for colonialism, but I believe the same way you're using that metric with my faith, you're not being fair.

And that's my honest opinion.

So that's what I'm saying.

If you're going to use that metric to measure the faith and what we did and what we didn't do, if we look into the mirror, if we do the research, hundreds of millions of people lost their lives and were coerced into Christianity the same way you're trying to claim Islam was.

So the Greeks were under the Turks for how long?

500 years.

They're still Orthodox.

Okay.

The Serbs.

I can go on and on.

Many nations that were under Muslim rule that are still Christian today.

Okay, can I respond now?

Yes, you can.

Okay, I totally agree.

Oftentimes, there are other variables that are causing war.

Again, I will reiterate my point.

I'm not looking at something in the Middle East and going, Islam's fault.

I'm looking at specific connecting factors.

That's important.

Because again, we can go to issues in the life of Muhammad, the way he he acted, the way he was a caravan robber, and the way he oppressed and the way that he treated women and the way he treated his, we can go to places in the Quran, like I mentioned, Surah 98.

Christians are the worst of creatures.

We go to Surah 3.7.

Hold on.

I let you speak for a good five minutes and then I let, and I didn't say anything.

Please allow me to stop.

Appreciate that.

Okay.

We can make connections here, which are alarming to us Christians.

The only reason I'm bringing all this up is because you said you want Christians and Muslims to work together.

And not kill each other.

Simple.

Exactly.

I completely agree.

The problem is, is when we go into the data, when we run the numbers, it is not the Christians' fault.

99% of the time, overwhelmingly, this is coming from Islam.

And the reason it's coming from Islam is because we can see the specific doctrines in the Hadith.

You've just admitted to me, apostates should be killed in Islam.

That is alarming on so many levels.

You're saying you don't want violence, but your religion is demanding it.

If somebody, I have friends that are ex-Muslim or Christian, and they get death threats all the time from Muslims.

Now, you said we should work together.

How can we

ask a question?

Let me ask a question.

How can we work together when people on your camp say they want to join my camp, and then people on your camp say they should be killed?

This is not us working together.

This is one side trying to oppress, humiliate, subjugate us, and wipe us out.

There's even a hadith that says the end will not come until the Muslims fight the

and they overcome the j's and the hide behind rocks and trees, except this one tree.

That's post-thrist.

Antichrist.

But still,

that is calling for violence that's supposed to come.

This is a religion that says we need to keep pushing violence.

The house of Islam needs to fight the house of war until the world is subjugated.

I wish we could work together.

But again, when I look into the world, when I look at who all the martyrs are, who are the terrorist groups, it tells a different story, different than what you're telling.

And I'm saying, clean up your house so that we can work together.

And then I would be with you on that.

Were you guys ever used the same fairness?

For example, like the guy in the New Zealand church, I mean, the New Zealand mosque massacre, Christian Church.

He was prosecuted.

He was never called a Christian terrorist, though.

Even they had crosses all over his gun,

playing Serbian nationalist songs with like, why is the same fairness not shown in the media?

When fellow Christians don't call it out?

I mean, the guy literally walked into a mosque.

They said, peace, brother, Welcome.

Open fire.

100 Muslims dead.

That was ideological.

It was Christian fanaticism.

Never once called a Christian terrorist, even though I don't believe he was a Christian.

I agree.

You can't be a Christian and take life

unjustly.

It's only to defend yourself.

And I agree.

Christians have a right to defend themselves if they're being attacked or even oppressed.

And so does Islam.

What people did and how they did, that's on them, brother.

They're going to face God one day.

But you cannot force people to become Muslim.

I believe the context of apostatism is because of how dangerous it was back then, because of the alliances and treachery that was going on.

There was what are known as the munafiqun, hypocrites who pretended to be Muslim only to try to destroy Islam.

I guess it was once you're in the faith and you come out of the faith,

that's why there's that, because basically you're committing treason at that point.

I don't think it's something that needs to be done.

in today's world.

I don't think anybody would convert to the faith, you know, to simply leave it.

Now, can people leave if they don't believe it?

I think they should have that, right?

But I think it was more in the context of that time, the wars that were going on, and the treachery that was committed by certain tribes.

I appreciate you saying that.

I wish more Muslims thought like you.

I really do.

But again, I had a debate with a Muslim because he wanted to defend child marriage.

And if you go through the comments, all the Muslims are on his side.

You're the exception, Beck.

You're not the rule.

And that's why we Christians are standing against Lam and fighting and saying we can't work with this side.

Please clean up your own house.

We do.

That Christian terrorist you mentioned?

Yeah, horrible guy, thrown in prison.

But when like things like happen in the Middle East, like Christians are attacked, I see the Islamic world celebrating.

I don't see the Christian world celebrating when that guy went into that mosque and shot it up.

People were mortified.

The Christian nation threw him in prison and treated him as a terrorist he was.

Meanwhile, when things like October 7th happen or bad things happen where Christians are being persecuted, they're celebrating.

This is what I want more Muslims to be like you.

You're going to sit here and act.

I am a public influencer that talks about these topics, right?

Not a scholar of your caliber.

I respect that.

I'm not a scholar.

But you're very well read, and I respect that because I think that's why people like us can sit at the table and talk.

I think ignorance is the biggest enemy of all faiths, humanity, period.

When you talk about, you know, cleaning up the house, I think that's what needs to be done.

Muslims need to look at what's going on.

Christians need to look at what's going on.

But we need to be fair.

You guys always want to call us p-files.

I should use that word, right?

And you talk about cleaning up your house, yet, and we can get into child marriage if you want.

I do not condone child marriage.

We can put things into context.

I think anyone that marries anyone under the age of 18 should be executed.

Okay.

And I'll say that publicly.

I'm just saying, like, if I had a daughter, bro.

If I had a daughter and she was 14 and somebody wanted to marry her, I'd have a problem with that.

I would probably be in prison.

How do you make sense of Muhammad marrying Aisha?

Let me concentrate the Muhammad marrying.

I'll be able to that in two seconds, of course.

Just let me finish my point.

When we're going to talk about cleaning up our houses, you guys shouldn't be worrying about the Muslims right now.

Your Christians by association have 700, up to 700,000 open cases of sexual abuse with children, first from the Catholic Church.

Now the Anglican church in the UK, the head bishop had to resign.

I don't agree with what's going on in the UK.

If there are Muslim gangs, if they want, you cannot be a Muslim and

a woman.

The punishment is death.

I don't think you can women and be a Christian.

I think the punishment would be the same thing.

We know from the Old Testament, the punishment for adultery is death.

That's not even someone, right?

So,

yeah, I will call them out.

I hope the UK rounds up those grooming gangs.

And I would love to see them executed publicly for harming children and women.

And that is what our religion teaches us.

But I don't hear the outcry as much, not from you, I know you do, but from the Christian world, if we're going to talk about cleaning up our houses, let's start with the Catholic church.

Let's start with the Anglican church.

Let's start with the school teachers throughout our schools.

We have a big problem right here in America.

Let's worry about who I think we can see is it's happening a lot more on your side.

when it comes to touching children within the very institutions of different denominations of Christianity at the highest level, clergy

start there and then worry about the Muslims.

Now, as far as the marriage of Aisha,

is it normal for someone to get, you think if an adult has sex with a 12-year-old, is that a crime?

Yes.

14-year-old?

Yes.

Then why did the father get the Virgin Mary pregnant

at 12 to 14 years old?

That's all I want.

That's number one.

All right, I'm going to.

No, no, no.

I got to finish my point.

You've made your point.

I'm going to write that down because we've got to answer that.

The Hadith

are third-person narrations similar to the Testament we have.

People heard this, people heard that.

That's how those testaments are compiled.

They're not directly the book of God.

The ancient pre-Islamic Arabs were one of the most ignorant people on the face of the planet before Islam.

They used to bury their daughters alive.

In their tradition, it was called the Age of Ignorance.

If you, as a pre-Islamic Arab, had a daughter before you had a son, you would go to the desert, dig a hole, and bury her alive.

Jeez.

Before Islam, women were objects.

They were treated like garbage.

Now,

her age.

They did not keep accurate records.

They did not celebrate birthdays.

She would not have known her own age, her own self.

And many scholars believe she might have been somewhere between 15 and 18 based on battles that she led.

And she wrote a lot of the hadith herself.

She was written and very well spoken.

The Prophet Muhammad was married to his first wife.

She was 20 years older than him.

In many cultures throughout the world, including the Christian world, more than anybody, and we can Google all this,

the age of marriage or the age of consummation was when a woman was biologically ready to have a child.

That's not just in the Arab world, that is throughout the entire earth: Christian history, Asian history, African history.

Even to this day, still have bar mitzvahs, age of 13, to show the world, my son is of age.

He is now a man.

He is now ready to be courted and married.

By today's standards, 13 years old, if somebody tried to marry my daughter, 13 years old, I would want them executed.

That's the law of the Old Testament.

Did God forget?

I guess they forgot.

Jesus came down and lived as a...

He kept kosher.

He followed the commandments of the Old Testament, of which we're supposed to follow his example, right?

We should emulate the king, right?

He's Jesus Christ.

He was circumcised.

He followed all the commandments.

In that world, 13 years old was normal.

I'm not saying it is in today's world.

Arranging marriages was the way of the world throughout the entire world.

There's people where I come from that were engaged, whether Christian or Muslim before they were even born.

Islam is the first religion that said women cannot be forced.

That still happens today.

People still arrange marriages and force their daughters to marry people that they don't even want.

The Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, made that against Islam.

It's the first religion, unlike Christianity, unlike

long before them, Google search, which religion gave women the most rights up front?

Chaji Bitiyah.

Women were not allowed to own land.

They were not allowed, you know, and they could be forced into marriage.

Does this happen in the muslim world these are cultural differences it's not the doctrine

you cannot be forced to marry someone against your will in islam and anyone that does that is in direct violation of the faith and it's not do we think or not think like clear as day as far as her age there's no proof she was one or the other she wouldn't have known her own age anyway how are you gonna know your age if no one's celebrating your birthday There's no records.

You start keeping time in your mind.

Okay.

No one ever ever attacked him for being she was engaged before him so it was normal that she was engaged already her in in her hand in marriage there is no 100 she was that she wouldn't have even known her own age my own grandmother who died in the early 2000s didn't even know her own age why she came from rural albania kosovo to be exact they had no records the state didn't keep records she didn't even know how old she was she knew she was somewhere in her 80s but in the teens two or three years makes a big difference in today's world and in the ancient world.

But if this was only something that was on the Muslim side, you got something to say.

Explain to me as an American, leave religion out of it.

And I condemn it 100%.

Why was the age of consent in Delaware, Joe Biden's home state, seven years old, consent, and then 10 years old?

You could get married in New York at 13.

Is this normal today?

People go to jail today if they do these things.

You're worried about ancient Arabia that followed the practices and the customs of the entire world.

Yet we can go only 100 years ago in our own country and you tell me why a Christian nation founded on Christian principles, that was the age of marriage and consent

in modern history.

Can I respond on that point then?

Last point.

That's hypocrisy.

And yes, the mother of Christianity, Catholicism, and their encyclopedias, the spreaders of Christianity, said the Virgin Mary was no more than 14.

Most scholars believe 12 years old.

If that's normal and you can defend that, then come talk over here.

Otherwise, you can't.

So go ahead.

And everyone can Google search it themselves.

Fingers crossed.

Let's talk about the father impregnating Mary at 14.

Talk to me at 14.

Am I going to be able to speak?

Yes, you can.

All right.

12 is the general consensus.

That's a bunch of BS.

That comes from a work called the Proto-Evangelium of James, a late second century work, which the Catholic Encyclopedia says is unreliable scholars today like michael satlow am ram trupper will tell you that girls in palestine in the time period of mary were not being married until late teens to early 20s same for the wider roman world keith hopkins brent shaw note this it was not normal for girls in Palestine to be married that young.

That is a huge cultural myth that is being spread around that I have debunked time and time again.

The father did not do anything.

It was the Holy Spirit in the Bible who came upon her.

She was a a virgin.

There was no sex involved.

I agree there was nothing.

I'm still going.

I'll let you talk.

So this is a huge myth.

She was probably in her late teens to early 20s based on the cultural understanding.

You can check up the scholars I noted.

Again, Michael Sattlow, Amram Trauper,

Brent Shaw, Keith Hopkins.

Okay.

With regards to Aisha's age, they did keep accurate records.

Sahih al-Bakari, Sahih Muslim.

After Islam.

Tough seer.

Every tough seer

from the earliest periods of Islam say she was married to the Prophet Muhammad when she was six or seven, because some differ on that, but they all agree he consummated the area when she was nine.

And the idea that she was biologically ready, absurd.

There's a great study called Evolution, Development, and the Timing of Puberty published in 2006.

They note due to lack of nutrition in the medieval period, girls were maturing slower.

No girl would have reached the age of monarchy before the age of 11, and that would have been 1% of girls.

Most were not getting their period till 14 or 15.

In the modern world, it has started to go down younger ages, better nutrition, better health.

But in that period, there is no way to think she would have been biologically ready.

And the hip development of girls, not even complete till the ages of 15 to 17.

That's also important.

13 was not normal, as I've said.

And as this idea about which religion gives more rights.

We don't need to go to ChatGPT.

Chat GPT has 50% wrong answers, according to some studies.

We can go to historians like Tom Holland, wrote a great book called Dominion.

He notes that, you know, where the idea of witnesses comes from in marriages.

That's a Christian invention in the medieval period.

The reason why is because the church said, okay, Paul said there is neither Jew nor Greek,

male nor female, free nor slave, we're all one in Christ.

Women are the image of God, according to Genesis 1.

They have rights.

Therefore, they get to choose who they want to marry.

And Tom Holland says they were stepping on the toes of patriarchs everywhere.

They were saying, these girls have a right to choose who they want to marry.

So they were marrying these couples in secret, and they invited witnesses in to do that.

They started to destroy these old norms from the ancient world where women were property more than any other religion.

Tom Holland also notes in his book, when the abolitionists showed up in Morocco, they were told, you can't come here because banning slavery would be against our religion.

This idea, I mean, there's just so much.

You talk about Delaware being the average age.

Again, that was a...

That was a cultural thing that allowed for early arranging of marriages.

If you read historians like Kim Phillips, she notes that often in times when these early arranged marriages throughout the European world and their expansion, when those were put into practice, it was about saying, hey, you can arrange this marriage early, sometimes between elites.

However, they would often include clauses that consummation could not happen.

She notes in her book, Medieval Maidens, for example, that when the king of Argon was giving his daughter away at a young age, there was a clause, you cannot consummate this marriage until much later.

She notes that consummation of marriages, again, was not happening until late teens to early 20s.

So it didn't happen at all?

Is what you're saying?

I'm not saying at all.

I'm not saying it didn't happen at all.

So it didn't happen.

But here's the difference between these issues.

We don't go around saying people that committed child marriage are excellent moral examples.

The whole world is.

But the Quran says Muhammad is an excellent moral example.

The whole world is no.

The Quran says Muhammad is an excellent moral example.

That is wrong.

He is not an excellent moral example.

What he did was wrong.

It was a product of his time and culture, perhaps, or perhaps he was an exception in the cultural run.

It was better.

But either way, it was wrong.

And when you bring up people in Christian history doing it, we'll just go, yeah, that was evil.

We condemn it.

They're not a good moral example.

But in Islam, you have to say is a good example.

This is why I get Muslims all the time trying to justify his marriage when it should not be.

It should be condemned because it was wrong and evil.

There is no justification for what Muhammad did out.

That's your opinion.

I believe she was past the age of consent, you know, as far as like not age of consent, what do you call it?

The age of maturity.

In the whole world, once a woman had her period, she was ready to give birth.

That's when she was given away.

Period.

People can go do their research.

They can see for themselves.

And again, most of these books you're quoting are people that I guarantee you are more pro-Christian in essence.

And that's

all I'm saying to people is, that's your opinion.

This is our opinion.

Go do your homework.

And yes, you shouldn't just take anything Chat GBT says at face value.

Ask for the sources, which is we're limited, so it's okay.

Ask for the sources.

If you actually care for the truth, go in.

Check everything he's saying, I'm saying.

You owe that to yourselves.

But my friend, you guys have no stone to throw at.

And I guess a lot of Christians didn't get the message because we're living in modern history and this seems to be plaguing your community.

So this is also, again, a big misconception.

You're more likely to have a problem in a school than you would in a church, according to the, run the numbers.

But you talk about truth.

I totally believe in truth, but that's why I have to reject the Quran because the Quran has in itself a dilemma, which means Islam must be false.

And this is a huge problem.

So let's just move off from the sociological stuff for a reason because I really wanted to get to this to you today because I want your opinion on this issue.

Sure.

So here's the problem.

If the Bible has been corrupted, Islam is false.

If the Bible has not been corrupted, Islam is false.

We call this the Islamic dilemma.

Have you heard of this?

I've heard it loosely.

Okay.

So let's go to places like Surah 447.

It says it's the Quran says it's confirming our scriptures, what we have with us.

Go to places like Surah 547,

tells the people of the gospel to judge by the gospel.

Surah 568, oh people of the book, you have nothing to stand on unless you observe the Torah, the gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord.

Okay, here's the problem.

The Quran is talking to us and it says, judge by the gospel, judge by the Christian scriptures.

Fine, but there's contradictions.

Jesus is not crucified in the Quran.

He is, and he resurrects in the Bible.

He's the Son of God.

The Bible contradicts the Quran.

The gospel contradicts the Quran.

So if I'm judging by the gospel, I have to judge the Quran false.

But if the Christian scriptures have been corrupted, then Islam is also false because the Quran affirms the inspiration, preservation, and reliability and authority of our scriptures.

Therefore, Islam is false.

Why should we be Muslim when this is a huge problem within your own scriptures?

Okay.

Can I answer?

Yeah, sure.

And I'll try to the best of my ability.

First and foremost, when the Quran refers to the previous scriptures, it also mentions how they were corrupted.

There are verses that say, and woe to those who...

Can you give me some?

Yeah, give me one second.

Let me see if I can find it here.

Because I know the ones you could go to, and I normally work.

We do believe that God sent previous revelation before us.

We also do believe that these books have been tampered with.

I think the evidence is pretty clear.

The Muslim, to my knowledge, doesn't look at the Bible like it's not a word of God, but it looks like a word of God as if we have these two bottles of water and certain contaminants were placed in it that were not the words of Christ and not the teachings of God.

So, to my understanding, first of all, we're reading the Quran in English.

I'm not in Arab.

We all pray in Arabic to preserve its authenticity, something that was not done with the Bible.

And we can get into that after this.

We believe that there was certain sects, certain people that changed the word of God.

We know that the Israelites definitely changed the word of Moses, in our opinion.

How could Moses have written the book of Moses, peace be upon him, when he's writing about his own death?

Moses was 120 when he died.

Did Moses write that?

Some scholars try to say Joshua did it, maybe, but that still wasn't Moses writing it.

He couldn't have written about his own death.

So clearly, the entire book of Moses wasn't written by Moses.

So what I believe the Quran is alluding to, and there are people that are way more capable than I am, is that yes, some of these messages, some of these transmissions were corrupted, and that whatever is the good from it, use, whatever is manipulated, you can see when you use the filter.

especially things like the Ten Commandments.

That's always been where I hold my moral compass as a believer in God.

I think that's somewhere where Christianity dropped the ball completely.

So, yes, when I look at a verse like,

you know, Matthew 26, verse 36, and Jesus fell on the face, fell on his face on the ground and prayed.

I believe that to be authentic.

I believe that's how he prayed.

That's how Moses prayed.

Moses prayed with his face on the ground.

right most christians don't there's some assyrian sects that do and stuff like that but i don't see the Christians emulating him in prayer.

Right.

So these to me are contradictions where I'm like, okay, we pray like he prayed.

Our women dressed the way he dressed.

So yes, do I believe that the gospel of Christ is a book of God?

Yes.

I don't believe we have his gospel in its authentic form.

The Bible wasn't compiled until 40 to over really 325 years.

They were debating whether he was God or not God.

They almost killed each other back then at the Council of Nicaea.

This is a fact of history.

Fact of history.

That is not a fact of history.

So it is.

Anyone can look it up.

Read Pierre J.

Led Hart's book.

They couldn't figure out for 325 years whether he was God or not God.

It almost tore Christianity apart.

That is false.

Okay.

Well, a lot of what you say is false too.

But what I know also is that, you know,

leaving Christianity and Islam on the side,

how do you justify

a lot of Christian denominations that, in my opinion, are performing idolatry.

That's indirect.

Forget the new gospel.

Forget the gospel.

Forget the Quran.

Go back to God's 10 rules.

Don't make images.

Don't pray to anybody but God.

This was from Christianity's inception.

You can say whatever denomination you are now.

Again, we go back to the mother of Christianity.

We go back to Catholicism.

Statues, saints, praying to everybody but God Himself.

In Exodus 33,

God told Moses, Moses wanted to see God in his glory.

God, how come I can't see you?

Because no one can see the face of God and live.

No one in human form can see God in this life, in this world, in this material world.

No one can withstand the glory of God and live.

Then you're telling me this same God decided, not only are you going to see me, I'm going to come down myself.

You're going to see me in the flesh.

I guess God forgot.

I guess God just, I guess he just forgot.

Either the Bible has these inconsistencies

and Jesus is God,

or we can see the tampering, the changing of these verses.

The way it was compiled, you can sit here and say it was his disciples.

Most historical people that are being fair to history will tell you there is no 100% proof that these were his disciples.

And the person that wrote 25% of the Bible, Paul, definitely never met Jesus Christ.

He saw an apparition of him as he's wiping out the first Christians, by which the Ebionites are the most famous ones who never said they were early Christians who considered themselves Israelites, that believed he was the Messiah, but he was not divine.

And again, throughout Christian history, it took them 325 years to get on the same page to the point that there was civil unrest, there was blood spilling.

Pull up the history of the Council of Nicaea and ask if there was violence and bloodletting.

Were people actually about to kill each other over this?

Because they couldn't agree on his divinity.

No one was killed at the council.

No, man.

I just looked at it.

Not at the council.

No.

Leading up to it.

That's why they had the council.

There was about to be a civil war within Christianity.

And it's early.

It took you guys 325 years, brother.

Go ahead.

I covered a lot of stuff there.

I'm going to address that.

I'm going to shut up now.

I wrote notes.

Do your thing.

Let's go back to the Islamic dilemma.

Even if you're right, there are places where the Quran says the Bible's been corrupted.

Islam is false because the Quran says for us to judge by the gospel in those corrupted scriptures.

That's crazy, man.

That's crazy.

You got to actually address the verses.

Surah 2946 says, oh, say to the people of the book, we believe in what has been revealed to us and what has been revealed to you.

So you're commanded to believe in our scriptures.

Believe that God sent these books.

Doesn't mean believe them in their form now.

That's not.

That's God sent them.

Okay, that's not what it says.

It says believe in them, not in the current form.

That's a qualifier.

Let's not add to the words of Allah.

That sounds like we're committing shirt because you're going to become a partner with Allah.

That's a problem.

So either way, however, the verse you're going to is Surah 279, which just says that some people write the book with their own hand.

But that also implies that they have the scriptures with them because just six verses later, Allah tells the jews, believe in the whole book that I sent you.

So it's clearly talking about other things they're writing, not that they're actually corrupting the actual Torah itself.

And by the way, that's just to the jazz.

It never mentions Christians doing this stuff.

So according to the Quran, the the Christians still have the preserved and authoritative words of Allah that we are supposed to judge by.

And if I'm going to do that, I have to judge Islam as false.

This is the Islamic dilemma.

This is why we know Islam is false.

You brought up Matthew.

You said, but Jesus prayed with his face down.

But what did he say in Matthew 26, 39?

Father, remove this cup from me.

He can't be a Muslim because he called Allah father.

10 verses earlier.

But what else did he say there?

10 verses earlier.

What else did he say there, though?

10 verses earlier, he instituted the Lord's Supper where he gave alcohol.

You were talking before the show, we we got to reject alcohol.

Jesus said, you have to drink alcohol if you're going to be a Christian.

We have to partake of the Eucharist, which involves wine.

Let's talk about Nicaea.

Totally blown out of proportion.

Even scholars like every Muslim's favorite scholar, Bart Erminit, notes this.

At the Council of Nicaea, it was a dispute over the Arian heresy.

Arius believed Jesus was a God, but not the God.

He was a created God.

Most of the overwhelming majority of the 250 bishops present there sided against him.

This was not a huge civil issue.

This was a minor sect that was rejected by them.

And they, of course, the overwhelming majority sided with what the church had always taught, that Jesus is God.

He is the Most High with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

You brought up graven images in the Old Testament.

Okay, the thing about graven images, this is actually a misconception.

They never were banning just images.

This is something Islam gets wrong.

They were banning idols.

In the ancient world, this is a cool thing.

You might find this interesting.

They would make an image of the gods in the surrounding cultures around Israel, and then they'd go through a ritual practice.

It often involved a mouthwashing ritual for some weird reason.

And then they said that the deity would be imbued into the idol.

His essence would be there.

God says, you can't contain me in an idol.

You can't make a graven image because I am the creator.

You're not going to contain me in a little idol.

Therefore, no graven images.

That was not banning images generally or just pictures.

It was banning graven images.

That's something different.

You brought up the Ebionites.

The Ebionites didn't come about till late first century, maybe second century.

They did believe Jesus was a man.

They were not a Muslim man.

They also believed they could become Christs.

They believed the Christ was a heavenly spirit that descended upon Jesus at his baptism and left him at the crucifixion.

And they believed Jesus died and resurrected.

They were more similar to Gnostic groups, but different in some ways.

Some of them even rejected the virgin birth.

They are not your friends in this, I'm telling you.

And they were a late heretical group.

They came much later.

And again, that is just complete and total misconceptions.

We can actually argue that the Bible is one of the most reliable documents from the ancient world.

The gospels go back to eyewitnesses.

Studies have just been done on this that we can actually argue there are reliable accounts there if you want to get into that.

I think the viewers can do their own research on that.

And you brought up all the sources you have.

And I think, you know, again, these are differences in opinion.

I don't care what you say, making pictures, images.

Look at the way they mock Jesus Christ.

They're making movies about him.

Nicholas Cage is about to play Jesus Christ in a film.

It's horrible.

Playing, which I condemn 100% as a Muslim.

And this is where Muslims and Christians can unite because they are desecrating and disrespecting this very important,

you know, person to both of us.

But why are they able to do that?

Because you're making pictures, because you're making images of your supposed God.

And I think that's your interpretation.

I think the Ten Commandments are extremely clear.

I am one God.

I am a jealous God.

Don't pray to anyone but me.

Orthodoxy, Catholicism,

saints this that everyone but god i know you're not of those denominations but those go way back brother so again these are opinions there's difference christian scholars muslim scholars i like to go back to fundamentals i say to the christian the muslim and you can't get it right look at the ten commandments that's what you should be following period i totally agree with you that and if we all lived by those ten rules not a single one of us on the earth i think would have problems even in today's world and i think that's why they're so important.

I do believe that the way the Bible was compiled, the amount of time it took, how long did it take to get the final version?

Final version of the Christian.

How many times after his alleged crucifixion?

You're asking two different questions here, though.

How long before we got the Bible we have today?

You're asking two different questions.

Just canonized.

How long?

Okay, so let me answer both questions.

How long did it take the Bible to be written?

Yeah, the New Testament was written.

in the first century, completely written and done, all the books.

In what language?

It was written in Greek.

All Greek, right?

Yeah.

What was Jesus' primary language greek and aramaic he spoke greek was his primary language no it's probably aramaic but he spoke it was probably how do you not know you're a christian you don't know the language that god spoke what are you talking about what was his primary what was his primary language aramaic and greek he was bilingual so it wasn't greek i just said greek so you're going to say he's definitely bilingual then you spoke both languages at the same time according to modern scholarship yes he spoke both languages in fact peter j williams not what i've studied peter j williams notes that the sermon on the mount was probably given in greek can you type in what was the jesus primary language primary language it will be Aramaic, but most scholars like Stanley Porter, Peter J.

Williams, Maurice Casey will say he was bilingual.

Because they were there.

No, we can know from the actual research done on the New Testament and the culture.

What did Aramaic?

What was Jesus?

You guys say he was a Jew.

He was a Jew.

Of course he was.

So why don't you follow Judaism?

Because he's the Christ.

He kept kosher.

Yeah.

He was circumcised.

Where did he tell him?

He didn't come down and say pray like this.

That came after him.

He literally didn't come in.

He prayed.

Following the example of the master, of God himself.

Why are you not keeping kosher?

Okay.

Why do Christians eat pork?

Why do you not get circumcised?

Why do you not practice what God did in front of all of us?

Okay.

Literally, if he's God, he did this in front of us.

Why are you not following the example he even left in your own book?

So there's no uniformity of prayer anywhere in your religion except our Father's Prayer.

Motions and this and that, you guys all have different versions.

There's absolutely no uniformity.

One thing, let me finish.

You got to give Islam one thing.

Sunni and Shia, there are some differences, but there's still only one version of the Quran.

And for the most part, except the exceptions of leaving leaving their hands to the side, the motions of worship are uniform.

And everyone knows that you can only pray in the Arabic language.

He's saying a man that spoke Aramaic brought us a book in Greek, which is what the word Bible means, Biblos.

Any language scholar will tell you you lose up to 20 to 30% just in translation.

I, as a Muslim, can say, when we're looking at these verses in Christian, I mean, I'm sorry, when we're looking at the verses of the Quran, I am not an Arabic scholar.

I do not speak Arabic.

I can pray in Arabic.

I don't know in what context the way they do.

I don't.

I know that there's 20 to 30% lost.

I know I can't read that book the way an Arab can that understands Arabic because there's certain things that just don't cross over when you translate.

Any scholar will tell you that.

So you're sitting here telling me a book that took at least a minimum 100 years, up to 325, depending on which scholar he wants to quote or not quote.

These can all be debated.

They will debate amongst themselves.

One language to another language to another language, 20%, 20%, 20%.

Easily provable.

No uniformity in prayer, not in the motions, not in what you should be saying.

Some people believe you can go in tongues and jump around.

Some people believe you have a full band, Baptist.

No uniformity whatsoever at all throughout the entire faith.

I say go back to the Ten Commandments.

No pictures, no images, anything that violates those 10 commandments.

Clearly corruptible.

Like I said, the Roman Catholic Church spread this faith throughout the earth.

The majority of it came from them.

They're the ones that held the Council of Nicaea.

People can do their research.

Many early Christians didn't believe he was God.

That came later.

I believe most of this corruption, 100%, came from Paul.

Jesus' birthday is on what day?

What day is Jesus' birthday on?

Are you seriously about to say what I think you're about to do?

What am I going to do?

You're going to get the correlations to Mithrasism?

Yes, you're about to do it.

December 20th.

I don't know.

Coincidence?

I don't know.

The people that spread the religion

believed in the Son God, born on December 25th, 25th, who sacrificed himself.

The people that spread the religion are the same people that Jesus said he didn't come for.

I didn't come

for the Romans.

He came for who?

The lost sheep of Israel.

Who spread his message and word?

Pagans.

Pagan Romans spread his word.

Okay, Beck.

325 years after that.

This whole conversation has been misconception.

I have to correct after misconception after correct.

Okay, so let me go through these points.

Go ahead, Amish.

Let me talk for five minutes.

I'm going to go backwards.

Let's start with Christmas.

I sell t-shirts.

You know what they say on them?

Christmas is not pagan because every year for the past 10 years, I have to debunk this myth yet again.

There is no source whatsoever that says Mithra was born on December 25th.

That is a lie.

Christmas is a Christian holiday.

It has no paganism involved.

I have done countless videos debunking this time and time again.

There is absolutely no evidence that Christmas came from Mithraism or any of that nonsense.

Please stop spreading that nonsense.

It has been debunked by myself and historians like Thomas Schmidt, Philip Nothap, and many others for a long time now.

Pure nonsense.

You said said Paul corrupted Christianity.

Pure and utter nonsense.

Your own sources say Paul was an apostle.

It's in Tobridi.

It's in life of Ibn Asaq.

He mentions this around like page 652, 653 in life of Muhammad, that Paul and Peter went to Rome to preach for Jesus and Allah.

And I can even argue from the Quran.

Surah 355 and Surah 61.14 say that talking about the disciples and the Christians of the first century, Allah is going to make them uppermost.

This is in Surah 61.14.

Who was made uppermost?

It was the Trinitarian Christians, the people that believed Paul was an apostle of God.

Why is Allah supporting someone you say corrupted the message?

That's insane.

You say we're not following what Jesus taught.

Jesus taught we can pray to him.

You go to John 14.

He says, John 14, 11.

He says, believe me that I am in my Father and that I in the Father is in me also.

Or else believe on account of the works themselves.

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do, and greater works than these he will do because I'm going to the Father.

Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.

He's going to the Father and he says we can ask him.

That's prayer.

He's saying that we can pray to him.

We are following exactly what Jesus taught in that.

Now you are upset that we don't do certain motions.

I mean, Jesus never said that kind of thing.

We can pray standing.

We can pray with our heads down.

It happens in the Orthodox and Catholic Church, for example.

But you also brought up the Bible being corrupted.

I want to talk about that briefly.

I don't need to argue with a Muslim that the Bible has not been corrupted because I can go to the Quran.

As I said, the Quran confirms the preservation, inspiration of our scriptures, for example.

It says things like Christians judge by the gospel, Surah 547.

Stand on our scriptures, Surah 568.

Surah 4 or Surah 3, 3-4 says, Allah revealed the Torah and the gospel.

And then the Quran says none can change his words.

So I can, if I want to argue with a Muslim, I wouldn't do this if I was arguing with an atheist.

But I, and I wouldn't do it when I do my series on the reliability of the gospels.

I go over tons of data showing reliability.

But when I'm talking specifically to a Muslim, I don't need to do anything other than appeal to your book, which says my scriptures have not been corrupted, which says they are inspired scriptures.

None can change his words and I can go to them.

And if that's the case, again, Islam has to be false.

Because if we have the inspired scriptures, they contradict the Quran.

If we're to judge by those inspired scriptures, we have to judge Islam as false.

This is why everyone should convert to Christianity.

Because Islam is cooked at this point.

So I showed you earlier that there's verses that also say that the books were manipulated in the Quran.

The Quran doesn't say that they weren't.

There's verses that show that it was corrupted.

Okay.

We do believe that God sent them.

I believe in the context through English translation.

Maybe someone can clarify me in the comments from the Muslim side.

Again, there's people way more qualified.

We're reading in English.

They won't even admit.

We admit it.

As Muslims, we say from Arabic to English, we're losing something.

They won't say that.

I'll say that.

We can all agree.

I'm Michael that there's been some lost meaning with the translation.

When you go from one language to another.

For sure.

Oh, for sure.

Yeah.

Yeah.

This is why I constantly encourage people to

get a lexicon, get an interlinear Bible and read what those words are.

We believe that, you know,

yeah.

So basically, there's something lost in translation.

The way I understand it in the context, and again, someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

is yes, God is telling us, I sent these books.

And then in other passages, they were also corrupted.

We believe the reason the Israelites were pushed out of Israel, ancient Israel, holy Israel, was they killed John the Baptist, peace and blessings be upon him.

And then they tried to do the same to Jesus Christ.

Their rabbis altered the books.

And, you know, and so actually before they were, you know, conquered by the Babylonians, from the Muslim perspective, we believe the rabbis changed some of the books and God punished them for that.

They were sent to Babylon.

100 years that made what, from what I understand, under Egypt look like a vacation.

Then the second temple was built after the Persians conquered the Babylonians, sent them back to the Holy Land.

They're all waiting for the Messiah.

And this is where Christians and Muslims agree.

We believe that Messiah came back.

His name wasn't Jesus, by the way.

J didn't come out.

The letter Jay didn't.

I mean, what is his name?

Is it Jesus or Yeshua?

Jesus is a transliteration.

Okay, so what is the name?

Because Christians, I don't hear them.

They all use different names.

So which one is it?

The original name would probably have been Yeshua or Yeshu.

Probably.

Yeah, because we're talking about the Galilean dialect.

And so they don't pronounce things.

Yeah, they wouldn't pray.

Not Not Greek.

These are names.

But not Greek, though.

Yeah.

A name is a simple thing to convert.

I mean, you transliterate names all the time.

We do it.

But the J didn't exist for how many years later.

I don't know.

But it doesn't matter.

These are just transliteration.

The letter J didn't even exist.

It's not a big deal.

I mean, it is.

I mean, we're saying he's God.

We're betting eternity on it.

He never says you have to call him by a specific name.

But as far as, you know, I think the same way you're trying to go this way or that way, it's the same thing you do with your faith.

Take a couple sentences out of context, put it here.

I think people can search for themselves, look into these things deeply.

The overall theme is we're not enemies.

We don't have to be enemies.

And I don't think our doctrine teaches that.

And I've already shown, I think, throughout this conversation, that both sides have guilty culprits in both sides of the faith that have done things in the name of Jesus, in the name of God, that they didn't have the right to do, period.

But what I do want to clarify is when we're talking about uniformity, Christianity can't even hold a candle to Islam from prayer to worship across the globe.

It is the largest body of people on earth that worship God the same way.

There is a difference between supplication

and worship.

There is no uniform act of worship to the Creator.

It's a free-for-all when it comes to Christianity.

Yet Islam does mimic a lot of what the Israelites did also, as defined in the Bible, as Jesus Christ himself.

Why was God praying in Matthew 26?

A God gets prayed to.

A God doesn't pray, especially if he's equal.

Why does he need to call for backup?

Matthew 26, because he quoted the verse here earlier, oh my father, if this cup can pass me, not as I will, but as thou will.

Meaning

he had no power in that time.

If he's the father, he's the, you know, I'm sorry, the alpha and the omega, he knows the future, which he didn't know the hour.

I don't know how he could be God if he didn't know the hour.

Only the father knows the hour.

These are contradictions.

He can't be the God.

If he doesn't know the hour, only the father knows the hour.

Yet why is God praying to teach us, but you guys are not following his example?

Your women are not covered the way his mother was.

You do nothing for leave Islam, completely eliminate Islam if you want.

You're still not following your example.

You're still not praying the way he prayed.

I agree.

When they say you can pray any way you want, yes, when you're asking God for something, God, please, Muslims do it.

We call it supplication.

God, please help me.

God, forgive us.

God, please end these wars.

God, guide us if we're wrong.

That's supplication.

Worship.

There is no uniform worship in the entire faith of Christianity.

All right.

So let me talk about some of this stuff.

So

again, you're going back.

You're saying there are verses in the Quran that say it's corrupted.

Again, if you're right, this is a major contradiction in the Quran, a major contradiction, because, again, it says in Surah 29, 46, say to the people of the book, we believe in what has been revealed to us and what has been revealed to you.

Our God and your God is one.

So your God is telling you to believe in corrupted scriptures.

Now, what does that mean?

Brother, park there for a second.

It's important.

Park there for a second.

I'll do this one time, but don't interrupt me.

One time.

That verse doesn't justify exactly what you say.

Yes, we as Muslims believe God sent the Torah, gave the Ten Commandments.

Don't worship one, worship only one God.

Don't make, we believe that.

We believe Jesus brought the same message.

That doesn't prove.

Yes, God's saying you should believe what I sent.

When you read the first chapter, the cow.

The, you know, the okay, no, you got to let me finish.

He's interrupting that.

You're going on another monologue here okay all i'm saying is i know it doesn't prove we're saying yes we do believe the 10 commandments came down the psalms of david came down the gospel of jesus christ his spoken word but he did not leave finished during his lifetime okay and once people inserted what they wanted to and they did and then once again and he's talking to them specifically not all of christians them he's talking to people in the past the people that corrupted the book yes people in the past corrupted christ's teachings okay so muhammad is going in sewer five to graves and saying oh dead people of the book believe in the gospel and judge by that.

That doesn't make any sense.

He's talking to Christians in his day, and he's telling them to believe in

scriptures you say have been corrupted.

And then he says in Surah 29 and 46, oh, by the way, Muslims, you should also believe in these books that have apparently been corrupted.

This doesn't make any sense.

Islam is cooked.

It has this in major contradiction where it's confirming our scriptures, but then Muslims come along and say it's been corrupted.

And by the way, there is no explicit verse in the Quran that says the Christian scriptures have been corrupted.

All Muslims can do is run to Surah 927, which says that some write the book with their own hand when speaking of the ⁇ .

But then right after that, it tells the ⁇ to believe in their whole book, not in parts, not in the parts that have not been corrupted, the whole book, telling us that Allah...

through Muhammad believed that the books were there and uncorrupted and everyone should believe in them.

This is a major contradiction.

If rabbis corrupted it as you're saying it, Allah is confirming corrupted scriptures.

Therefore, Islam is false.

This is why we have to reject this.

And again, again, you asked the question, let's go to this issue.

Why does God pray to himself?

Okay, this is modalism.

That's it with this saying we have in the church.

It's called that's modalism, Patrick.

Okay, the reason why we say it is because of the meme that goes around.

But

what does that mean?

I'm sorry.

Modalism is the idea that God is not three distinct persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

It's that he presents himself in three modes, sometimes as a father, sometimes as a son, sometimes as a spirit.

That was taught by heretics like Noetis and Sibelius.

They were condemned by the church.

We reject that.

So when people say, why is God praying to himself?

I don't know, ask the heretics.

No Christian believes that.

We believe in three distinct persons.

And by the way, the father prays to the son in the Bible.

If you go to Hebrews chapter 1, he quotes books of the Psalms.

Psalms is a prayer book.

The father quotes Psalm 45 and Psalm 102 when speaking of the Son.

Prayer is just how communication happens.

In the Catholic and Orthodox Church, they can pray to saints, but it's just communication.

When the Son is on the earth and he wants to

communicate with the Father, that's just prayer.

And when the father talks to the son, that's also prayer.

It happens in Hebrews 1, for example.

This has never been a problem.

You say, why are we not following Jesus?

Because we don't pray in a certain direction or cover our women.

We follow what Jesus taught us to do.

He said, partake of the Eucharist, baptize, spread the great commission, pray, our Father who art in heaven.

Muslims don't follow Jesus because you follow superficial things, not what he actually commanded.

Nowhere did he command it.

We have to pray in a certain direction, let alone facing Method.

You have to command women to

He never once said women have to cover.

Women have to be modest.

Jesus never said.

Is that in the Bible?

Jesus never said women have to cover.

Does the Bible command women to be modest?

In 1 Timothy, there is a verse about saying women need to dress modestly.

However, if you read the historical context, Paul is talking about not wearing excessive wealth.

That's mainly what he's focusing on because he was saying like, don't have these rich women showing up wearing all their jewels and jewelry.

It's disrespectful to the people that can't afford that kind of stuff, man.

So, no,

there's no place where Jesus says you have to wear a head covering for the moment.

Yeah, I can pull this out,

but that's more of the Old Testament, I guess.

Jesus never said that women must cover

head covering teaching in the New Testament comes from Paul.

It comes in 1 Corinthians 11.

Now, here's the thing about 1 Corinthians 11.

It's one of the hardest...

places in the Bible to interpret and translate because in that same chapter, Paul says women have long hair and that's their head covering.

It comes, I believe, in verse 11.

So we have this concept in the church that also happened really much in the Reformation, which is women can wear a head covering, but it's not a necessary teaching because they have that natural head covering of long hair.

So this is a debated passage.

I'll admit that.

But again, it's not a universal teaching.

It doesn't go back to Jesus.

We are following what Jesus taught.

He said, pray to him.

He said, get baptized.

He said, spread the gospel.

Spread the gospel, which is that he died, resurrected, and atoned for sins.

If you Muslims want to follow Jesus, why are you not doing that?

I believe we are following what he brought.

What did he bring then?

More than you guys.

How?

We follow his example.

We don't eat pork.

We get circumcised.

What did he say to do that?

We pray to no one but God.

What do you say to do that?

We don't give anyone power but God.

What do you say to do that?

We don't make tank.

I guess God forgot.

Is it the same God as the Old Testament or is it not?

It's the same God.

God gave us an rules.

Don't make pictures.

We don't.

And that's what we're talking about.

Don't worship statues.

We don't.

We don't pray to every Tom, Dick, and Harry.

We pray to him directly.

No one gave authority on earth to make anyone an intermediary between God and them.

Now, you could argue for Jesus.

I get it.

He's a part of your God system.

But from the two biggest denominations of Christianity, Catholicism and Orthodoxy, they have the authority to say people they're judging for god when they make people saints i know he's going to heaven no you don't you don't know what was in their heart god will judge them on judgment day whether they were a saint or not so again the biggest denominations of christianity of i know you don't agree with we're talking about the largest i don't say my denomination i just want to be clear okay i know you don't

but the majority are catholic That's true.

They're the ones that spread the faith, canonized it, held the councils, spread the message.

A people Jesus did not come for.

He came came for the Israelites.

They're the ones that spread it.

Paul was working with them to wipe them out.

This is what we believe.

I'm not saying it to attack you.

And I think the correlations show it.

We pray the way Jesus prayed.

We bow in prayer.

We put, that's worship, not supplication.

Our women dress like his mother.

We keep...

Halal is very similar to kosher.

The animal has rights, can't be just killed, not the way they kill meat in these countries.

They line them up.

We're consuming negative energy because of the way they're slaughtered.

So again, these are things that, you know, people can decide for themselves.

You mentioned that our book, because I forgot this point because I haven't taken notes at all.

I don't know why I asked for the pay attention.

But, you know, that we are programmed to hate Christians or like I mentioned from the beginning of this, that they're infidels.

Well, then why did the Quran say that we should look at their book, use the book?

You can't be an infidel if the book itself is saying, I sent them revelation before you, right?

that what the news uses, the media uses, clearly even him has supported that, that this is not the view of Muslims and what our doctrine teaches us.

It just doesn't.

Period.

Now, did everyone get the message?

Maybe not, but neither did a lot of Christians, brother.

And that's what I'm saying.

If we want to judge any doctrine by its followers, there's not a single faith left on earth.

But again, I will also say that's not the religion's fault.

That's the so-called followers' fault for not doing what's the right thing.

And again, the simplest way to break it all down is the Ten Commandments.

If you're in violation of those, I don't believe you're following what Moses, Jesus, or Muhammad brought.

And that's literally my argument.

You said you follow Jesus by his example.

Where do you get his example from?

So we have our own narrations of him.

Not a lot of them.

Most of it comes from the Bible.

So, but we have some very beautiful ones.

So my first question, I guess, to answer that is...

What was based on Christian doctrine?

And again, I am learning from you things I didn't know about certain denominations and, you know, certain practices or thoughts.

And

I, you know, thank you.

Appreciate sharing that.

And again, I'm not sitting here judging and saying you're going, like, I am not God, you know?

But what is the general consensus in Christianity as Jesus Christ's first miracle?

Yeah, he turned water into wine.

So he turned water into alcohol.

Yes.

Okay.

This is one of the main reasons why I will always believe what I believe about Jesus Christ.

I think the Islamic tradition has something that's very easily verifiable.

And that's some story that Muhammad would pull out of thin air.

And that miracle, we believe his first miracle, and I know you know it, is that he spoke from the minute he was born.

That sounds more god-like to me.

That doesn't really exist in the Christian general consensus.

There was a couple of non-canonized books that may have mentioned it, but it's not really the general consensus of Christianity or their books.

So let me finish the story because it's important.

We believe that because the virgin mary peace be upon her which has her own her own chapter in the holy quran she is the most important woman in the religion of islam period she has her own chapter we believe and it makes perfect sense because the punishment for adultery in the old testament because jews jesus came as a j he was born to jews

the punishment for adultery is to be stoned to death He's even one of his famous quotes with the

the who has not sinned cast the first stone, right?

Because that's what they do, stone you to death, right?

For committing adultery.

We believe from our tradition, the Virgin Mary was the way the Christian says it, the most beloved woman of God on earth.

She was chosen to carry Jesus Christ the Messiah.

She was without sin.

And for her own protection, while she was...

pregnant with Jesus, because she was not married and no man had touched her, if the Israelites would have seen her pregnant, they would have killed her.

They would have stoned her for death.

In the Talmud, we know what they think about her and what they think about Jesus Christ, which which I can agree, you can agree, was not received revelation from God.

That came while they were under occupation from the Babylonians.

But getting back to the main point, their first miracle of the most important human being that ever lived,

or God, as they say it, is he comes down, he's being breastfed.

Takes him

a couple of decades.

He's building tables.

He's a carpenter.

And then his first miracle is to make alcohol, which I think has destroyed the earth.

I've lost so many family and friends to alcohol.

I don't think think it's alcohol in the way they think.

I think it was some type of grape juice, in my opinion, but again, lost in translation, in my opinion.

What's the first miracle in the Holy Quran of Jesus Christ, which I think proves that this book came from God and clarifies who Jesus was?

His first miracle was when Mary delivered him.

She goes back to the town and the Israelites get out.

How do you have a kid?

You're not married.

She's holding baby Jesus.

God commanded her in the Quran, do not speak.

When they attack you, point to the child.

They They build up this mob.

They start calling her every name you can because they're calling her the names you would call a woman who is out of wedlock and having a baby.

They want to stone her to death.

His first miracle in the tradition of Islam was to defend the honor and the dignity of his mother because the minute they started attacking, he spoke, do not attack her or me, for I am the Messiah that you wait for.

When they heard him speak, not even a couple days old, no more than a couple weeks, an infant, they parted like the Red Sea.

His first miracle was from the moment he was born.

Does not even exist in the Christian tradition.

And it was to defend the honor of the Virgin Mary, which all of us can agree based on Israelite law.

If she would have been holding that baby and everyone knew she was a daughter of Jacob, the tribe of Jacob, they would have stoned her to death.

It doesn't even exist in the Christian tradition.

So that is false.

Peace and blessings.

Well, and the main Christianity, it doesn't.

So clarify then.

Let's talk about that.

So this is the problem with the Quran.

In Surah 9, Muhammad is called the the ear by his opponents, and the Quran addresses that because he's hearing stories and just believing them.

The story of Jesus speaking from the cradle, turning clay birds, turning clay birds into real birds, this comes from a Christian fictional work called The Infancy Gospel of Thomas.

that everyone knows, and modern scholars are pretty much in agreement.

This is where the Quran is getting this from.

It's ripping off these fictional stories about Jesus and passing them off if they were real ones.

You said earlier that, you know, Paul never met Jesus.

How should we trust him?

Well, I mean,

that's exactly why we should reject Muhammad he was just hearing these crazy stories and believing them and putting them in the Quran if we should reject Paul because he never met Jesus all the more we should reject Muhammad because he didn't ever met Jesus and he wrote hundreds of years later that's a problem and so this whole idea about the first miracle issue this doesn't help Islam and make it look better this helps it make make it look more ahistorical.

We know it's getting their stories from these Apocrypha pseudo-pigrapha works that Christians wrote as fictional accounts.

Some of an illiterate man that couldn't read or write.

Yes, because he couldn't read or write he was called the ear for a reason he was mostly arabs couldn't read and write he was getting all his stuff from these oral illiterate culture before him illiterate that's proving my point sir no it is proving my point how are you going to copy if you can't read and write i'm not saying he's copying he's here because it's not a direct copy in the quran of the infancy gospel com Thomas it sounds like an oral tradition he heard that was in the infancy gospel of thomas that various sects may have been using and then he says and he puts it in the Quran hypothesis it's the best explanation your historians are going to favor your faith giving their opinion away.

But it doesn't matter at the end of the day.

It does matter.

That's not a fact.

That's your opinion.

You keep interrupting me.

Let me finish.

It doesn't matter because the Quran still affirms my scriptures and says to judge by them.

And the book of John is very clear.

Jesus's first miracle in John chapter 2 was turning water into wine.

Therefore, those miracles the Quran mentioned could not have happened because, according to the Quran, my book is inspired, inspiration, scripture.

Even in the life of Ibn Asaq, on page 102 to 104, he says the Gospel of John contains the Injil.

This is in the life of Ibn Asaq, one of the sources, the Sirah.

Okay.

So they're saying that this is a reliable source in the Muslim tradition.

If that's the case, again, you just created contradictions in Islam because the Gospel of John, which is supposed to be inspired scripture according to Allah, says his first miracle is turning water into wine, not speaking from the cradle.

Therefore, again, we've created more contradictions in Islam.

Islam is false.

So God God came down in 20 years, he does nothing, builds tables, hangs around.

I mean, he's just chilling.

He's being breastfed by Mary.

I mean, that's God.

Yes.

He's drinking, eating, making.

What's wrong with that?

He lived.

And he was the beauty of Christianity.

Eat, drink, pray.

This is the beauty.

He does not have the qualities of the creator.

This is the beauty of God.

It is a beautiful story.

Let me explain.

I will admit it.

It's so beautiful.

Can I explain why?

God came down.

He's merciful.

Let me explain why.

It's beautiful.

Let me explain why.

I don't think it's the same God of the oldest.

Let me explain why.

Okay, because you have...

Okay.

Christ is not a God who says, do as I say or else, but a God who says, come and follow me.

Do as I do.

And together we'll change this world, washing one sinner at a time.

At the Last Supper, he put on servants' clothes and got down and washed the disciples' feet because the Son of Man came to serve, not to be served.

You want to change the world?

You live like Jesus.

You serve.

You surrender yourself.

You die to yourself.

That is what is the beauty of the Creator.

He leads by example.

He comes down in the flesh, lives the life we should have lived, dies the death we all deserve, and then leads humanity into a better world.

That's lacking in Islam.

Islam butchers that and takes that away.

It ruins this beautiful message that has changed the world.

And contradicts himself on the books he sent before.

Where does he do that?

You can't see me in human form.

Exodus 33, don't make images, don't make pictures, don't pray to anybody but me.

You can say whatever you want.

The audience will decide.

But I think we can agree.

The fact you keep saying that we respect your books and we have to use them.

So going back to the initial theme of this entire conversation, I think you've proven and I've proven why Christians and Muslims should not be enemies, should not kill each other, should not go to war, especially because politicians say so, and that we can coexist on this planet and let God or even Jesus, when he returns, decide who is wrong or right.

Until then, I bear you peace and blessings.

Thank you.

And I say to you and all Christians.

And I say

peace and blessings to you.

We pray for you.

We pray for our enemies, those who persecute us.

I wish we could work together.

But I mean, again, this is.

We are right now.

Hold on.

Let me finish.

We're talking about these contradictions.

You said that he can't see his face.

Actually, this scholars have noted that's an idiom in the Old Testament because Deuteronomy 4 says when he spoke to Moses, he spoke to him out of the pillar of fire.

So

they were face to face, but Moses wasn't seeing the face based on the historical context.

Yeah.

So I don't even push that out.

I know.

But yeah, I agree.

Again, let me say what I said at the beginning.

I wish more Muslims were like Ubek.

But again, that is not what myself.

That is not what the other Christian apologists and Christians around the world experience every day.

We experience countless accounts of persecution, martyrdom, hate.

It's always coming against us.

And I'm just saying, I wish we could work together, but we cannot until Islam reforms or transforms into something that is not going to treat us like the house of war, which it calls us and declares war on us constantly and wants to persecute us, turn us into dhimmis, make us pay a humiliating tax called the jizya.

This is not going to work out the way that

this is in Europe, brother.

This is not going to work.

What about the taxes throughout Christian kingdoms?

They used to take 70 to 80 percent.

Their people starved.

People would have wished they could have been under the jizya tax.

It was 2.5 percent.

People in America, people in America today

would take a 2.5 percent flat tax.

You know it.

Would you take a 2.5 percent flat tax?

Hell yeah.

You're a Jew or a Christian.

You don't have to fight.

You don't have to serve in the military.

The Muslims have to protect you.

The fact that Christians have remained in those lands to this day, when we could have wiped them out, is proof to what Islam really stands for.

In utter knowledge, with that said, brother, it is what it is.

I do have to say that.

Let's also let him answer before we get back.

Abu Bakr put a jizya on certain Jews in Arabia.

50%.

Where?

Which certain Jizya is?

Where?

In the South.

General consensus is 2.5%.

That was not always the case.

Okay, that's what everybody's quoted and documented.

Sometimes it was

a general conception.

It's general conception varied from culture to culture.

Everyone can chat GBT.

Please also check the Hadith on this, what Abu Bakr did, for example, to Arabia.

So there's a problem there.

The other problem.

There wouldn't be any on earth if it wasn't for Muslims.

Your people are the ones that wiped them out throughout history, even up and down, modern times.

Moses Mamanides said these people have not, there's no people that have treated us worse than

Mamanides was like the best.

He was and he said the Muslims.

Is that why he left Christian Europe to go live with the Muslims?

No, he left Muslim Europe to go to go to Egypt.

He was living under the Al Mohads.

My friend, you guys wiped them out wherever you could.

They went to Europe.

Wherever you guys could, you wiped them out.

Even the First Crusade.

When you guys came with the Knights of Templar.

All right.

You keep interrupting me.

I'm not.

We're finishing.

Let him finish.

Go ahead.

There are 1% Jews in the Middle East.

Where'd they all go?

They went to Europe, man.

Moses Mamanides said the Ishmaelites, no one is treated as worse than these people.

He had to pretend to convert to Islam for a couple years before he fled to some other place.

Where are you getting this information from?

From historians.

Historians or himself?

Moses Mamnanides wrote in his own letter.

You can study how Jews were treated in Christian Europe.

compare it to the muslims they were not would you say that the muslims do treat them better though no not all the time no not all the time but in general when it came to christian lands

no no pull it up please no why are there more

jews in europe now than there are in the middle east now because they keep getting persecuted and fleeing there was a no actually there's a lot more in the middle east now because they were being massacred in the holocaust by christian countries no they were that's why they ended up going back to they went to israel not syria yeah this is a big misconception man who put them in power in Syria, brother?

Who put who in power in Syria?

Western nations have had control of the Middle East for over 100 years now.

Who put these dictators in power?

Who put them in power, man?

They were fighting amongst themselves.

Western nations support various groups.

I'm not saying that's reflective on Christianity.

What does it say?

I looked this up.

He just said on record that they treated them.

You're seeing people do your own research.

This is ChatGPT.

Yeah, do your research.

I guess everything's a lie.

Everything is citizens.

I'm citing historians.

This is what we're talking about.

There's plenty of historians.

Who treated people better throughout history, Christians or Muslims?

And this is ChatGPT, guys, so don't take it out.

Yeah, that's it.

Do your homework.

That's what I'm saying here today.

Go do your homework.

The summary is in medieval and early modern history, generally lived more securely under Muslim rule than under Christian rule.

Okay, then why did Moses Mama?

Under Christianity, they often faced pogroms, expulsions, and systemic anti-Semitism.

Under Islam, they had to pay extra taxes and accept second-class status, but often prospered culturally and economically, especially compared to their treatment in Christian Europe.

They had their own courts, they had their own rulers.

Let me go back.

They had autonomy within the Muslim Empire.

They were treated like dogs throughout Europe.

That's again throughout history.

I have never said, you're putting words in my mouth.

I never said the j's were treated perfectly in Christianity,

but to pretend that they were living on sunshine rainbows under the Islamic world

is pure nonsense.

There are more

throughout the Christian world now because of persecutions, because of discrimination, because of them fleeing.

Why did Jonathan Fox find that, or I'm sorry, Grimm and Finky find that in the Muslim world,

and Christian face four times the level of persecution and discrimination than what Muslim minority groups face.

There's a reason for that.

And their own conclusions, this is a modern phenomenon.

Their own conclusions is this comes from Islamic doctrines.

I'm talking throughout history.

I can go to the Almohads.

In modern times, it's become very hot.

Let's just talk about the Almohads that severely persecuted Christians, and people were fleeing north to the Christian kingdoms in Spain.

There's a lot of

consensus.

And I agree, there was a couple.

And he's not wrong about some of these rulers he's talking about, but I'm talking about general consensus.

The overwhelming majority of that time and most hostility between Muslims and has been in the last hundred years.

Now, let's go to what historians are.

I'm saying, has there been some

persecution in?

I mentioned Omar, right, earlier.

What happened when one of the governors of Omar,

the Jew, was persecuted by the governor?

Which hadith are you talking about?

Okay, this is not even a hadith.

This is written in

just history.

He had a subject.

The governor humiliated him in public, hit him with a stick.

Omar summoned the governor, second in command, after the prophet died, peace be upon him, then Abu Bakr, then Omar, right?

Why did Muhammad expel all the Christians from Arabia?

Omar, he didn't expel all the Jews.

It's in Hasahi al-Bakari.

Pull up again.

Hadith are testaments, the way your book is preserved.

I don't know which one we're quoting exactly.

They were preserved similar to the Bible.

I heard this.

I heard that.

There could be some discrepancies in there, definitely with dates and human memory.

But

I forgot I was even going to say.

Look, the point is this.

Overall, they can say whatever they want.

People can go do this homework all day.

As far as tolerance of faiths,

why didn't we wipe you out when Salah Huddin retook Jerusalem?

You guys had massacred everybody.

Almost don't bring that up.

No, Salah Huddin sold so many Christians into slavery.

Okay.

For example, example the the the bishop the bishop was better than gean mass me finally better than gene

tried to ransom himself to get the christians out the way it's portrayed in that stupid movie kingdom of heaven is absurd but i can agree it might not be the most historical sold so many christians into slavery and again i'm going back to the hadith muhammad said that he is commanded to expel all the christians from arabia clifford bachman in the worlds of medieval europe said thousands died because of this okay jizya tax was imposed at high as high as 50 sometimes this is not this peaceful love the people.

Sometimes not very general.

This is the earliest follower.

It's supposed to be the best.

What was the taxes in the Christian kingdoms?

People starved to death giving paying taxes.

But they paid equal taxes.

They did not give in a special tax to Jews.

The general consensus is that the majority of Muslim subjects was 5% or less of their total income.

I think most Americans would sign up.

I today am paying 40%

tolls, income tax.

I buy something like, are you kidding me?

The general consensus.

Now, was there a couple rotten rulers?

Absolutely.

Well, you can say the same about Europe.

Yes, but overall,

okay.

And as far as Jerusalem is concerned, I'm pretty sure someone would have rather had a chance at life than being massacred.

You guys left no one there.

You didn't leave a or a Muslim there.

That's a lie.

That is a lie.

Okay, I guess only the historians you quote are the ones that are telling you.

You need to quote some in their back at me, not just.

Listen, I've given you way more,

I think, compromise on certain subjects than you've got.

Bro,

I've quoted your sources, the Hadith and the Quran, more than you have.

But in any event, I do need to get to prayer.

If it's okay, we said one o'clock stop.

It's already time, gentlemen.

101.

Let me just say, I appreciate you being here.

I appreciate the conversation.

I wish more Muslims were like you.

And I wish more Christians were like you.

I don't think the Middle East would have been on fire for the last 75 years.

And I hope we can get peace on this earth.

And everyone should have a right to go to the Holy Land, pray, worship God in their own way.

And there's no reason to be enemies.

And I think that's the most important thing today.

People are going to decide what they want anyway.

People are going to comment this, that, take your your side, take my side.

There is no sides.

If you find your truth, God will judge you.

And you, as a human being, and I know you think this way, I think this way, whether it's a Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Buddhist,

I don't have the right to end your life because you don't believe what I want to believe, and neither do you.

And I think both of our faiths at their core, that's what they believe.

Respect.

Thanks for your time, gentlemen.

I want to say it was a pleasure.

And they did learn a lot of different perspectives from you.

And I really appreciate it.

We'll link their socials below, guys.

Check them out.

I'll see you on the next debate.

Peace.

I hope you guys are enjoying the show.

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