David Howell: How a 12-Year-Old Beat Me | DSH #1604

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Speaker 4 I lost to a 12-year-old a few years ago. He's now one of the best players in the world, but yeah, he was a grandmaster already at 12.

Speaker 2 You were, what, 18 when you became one? 16. 16.
So you knew at a very young age you wanted to become a grandmaster?

Speaker 4 Yeah, I just didn't have any other options. I figured I wasn't good at many other things.
Really? Pretty special achievement.

Speaker 4 And that's when kind of the pressure kicked in, and the realization kicked in that this was actually something that I could pursue. I've been addicted to winning ever since

Speaker 4 that moment.

Speaker 2 And at eight, that was before all the AI and the solvers and everything. So you had to learn from the books, right?

Speaker 4 Yeah, old school, like books. I think going to clubs and actually analyzing with the older players, the more experienced players taught me a lot.

Speaker 2 Okay, guys, David Howell, first grand master on the show, chess grandmaster. Thanks for coming on, man.

Speaker 4 It's a pleasure.

Speaker 2 There's not many of you guys, right?

Speaker 4 There's a few. There's ever more and more.
Most of them are kids these days, but yeah,

Speaker 4 it's nice to be part of a pretty elite club.

Speaker 2 Yeah, they're getting younger and younger.

Speaker 4 They are. Like, I lost to a 12-year-old a few years ago, and he's now one of the best players in the world, but yeah, he was a grandmaster already at 12.
So that's insane.

Speaker 2 It's a crazy world.

Speaker 2 You were, what, 18 when you became one?

Speaker 4 16. 16.
I mean, these days, that's considered old but at the time it was the youngest in the UK and

Speaker 4 yeah I don't know what I did with my childhood

Speaker 4 to be fair.

Speaker 2 How many hours a day were you playing at 16?

Speaker 4 I would play chess probably eight hours a day or at least study think about chess read books

Speaker 4 yeah it was kind of my life these days I'm a bit more chilled about it. I don't keep up to date with modern trends as much but yeah I think eight hours is the average for a top top player.

Speaker 2 So you knew at a very young age you wanted to become a grandmaster?

Speaker 4 Yeah, I just didn't have any other options. I figured I wasn't good at too many other things.

Speaker 4 Really? I had this dream of being like a soccer manager, football manager. But

Speaker 4 yeah, in the end, chess, it was my one true love.

Speaker 4 I've been playing since I was five. So I kind of fell into it and never left.
Wow.

Speaker 2 Were you really good right at the start or did you get better over time?

Speaker 4 Yeah, I mean, I never really, it never clocked with me that I was... that good until I mean I was eight and then I beat a grandmaster for the first time and at eight at eight eight, yeah.

Speaker 4 And it was, I mean, I was on the front of the papers, and I was like, mum, dad, what does this mean? Like,

Speaker 4 why am I seeing my own face? And they were like, you know, it's a pretty special achievement. Wow.
And that's when kind of the

Speaker 4 pressure kicked in and the realization kicked in that this was actually something that I could

Speaker 4 pursue. I've been addicted to winning ever since.
I love that moment.

Speaker 2 And at eight, that was before all the AI and the solvers and everything. So you had to learn from the books, right?

Speaker 4 Yeah, old school, like books. I think going to clubs and actually analysing with the older players, the more experienced players, taught me a lot.

Speaker 4 These days I have it as like a badge of honor. I say to these kids, you know, you don't understand that deeply.
You're just memorizing what the computer says. And

Speaker 4 I think to some extent that's true, but it's no coincidence that the likes of Magnus Carlson, the top player in the world now, he was kind of, he's the same age as me and he...

Speaker 4 had the old school way of learning, but he complemented it with technology when it kicked in a bit later.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and now age is a big factor in chess, right?

Speaker 4 Yeah, I'm at that stage. I'm 34, and I kind of joke that I'm semi-retired because it's a bit like most sports these days.
It's like life kicks in.

Speaker 4 There's so much distraction. It's hard to dedicate so much energy, like brain power.

Speaker 4 When you're young, you have like not that.

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Speaker 4 Not much going on, I'm going to say. So,

Speaker 4 yeah, the youngsters, they're coming up. The world champion, he's 19 years old these days.
It's

Speaker 4 yeah, we're all granddads.

Speaker 2 What age would you say was your peak if you had a

Speaker 4 I think it probably would have have matched my physical peak. So like maybe in the mid-20s, like

Speaker 4 I would play these like long tournaments, two weeks long, seven hours a day, and you need a lot of stamina, you need kind of that energy. And I think that also matched my peak rating, my peak ranking.

Speaker 4 So yeah, round 24, 25. I think I understand chess better now, but I just can't I don't know, I just can't show it on the board anymore.

Speaker 2 That must be frustrating, right?

Speaker 4 Yeah, the consistency isn't there. Like I'll play a great game and then throw it away in one move just because I'm older and I lose concentration.

Speaker 2 Wow, that must be frustrating because you know you're better.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I tell myself that at least. It's like a coping mechanism, but I think all older chess players, we think we still have it.

Speaker 4 We think we can do it, but the consistency, that's the first thing that disappears.

Speaker 2 Right. Also, the competition's gotten a lot better.

Speaker 4 That too, yeah. It's like, I think it's the same in all sports or all games.
Like,

Speaker 4 information's traveled so much quicker and everything's shared nowadays. So, yeah, it's not just the fact that kind of the top guys are much stronger than they've ever been, but it's also kind of

Speaker 4 the tail as well. Like everyone has access to information and everyone has lessons nowadays.
There's free YouTube videos. You can learn a bunch.
So yeah, definitely tougher.

Speaker 2 Would you consider chess mainstream at this point?

Speaker 4 I'd like to say yes, but I don't think we're there yet.

Speaker 4 It's kind of in my dream. Like I realized in my late 20s I was never going to be world champion.
And I think because chess players, we're very goal, like, we're kind of fixated on results.

Speaker 4 So my new goal was to make chess more mainstream, to make it more popular. There's

Speaker 4 a lot of people

Speaker 4 are kind of like-minded now. And I think we're trying our best.
Like, there are Netflix documentaries coming, there's movies coming, like,

Speaker 4 stuff is happening. But I'm just hoping it's not kind of a temporary thing.
I'm hoping it's not just this. random boom and things disappear.
But mainstream, that's the goal long term.

Speaker 2 You have the BBC show, you're doing freestyle chess. There's a lot of events bringing all the normal people into chess, which is cool, right?

Speaker 4 Yeah, like I mean, for me, it happened kind of accidentally. I was well, during lockdown, during the pandemic, I was just sitting on my bum in England and not doing too much.

Speaker 4 And suddenly, I got a call to go to Norway and kind of film this chess show in a TV studio. And in Norway, chess is massive.
It's like one of the top sports. And

Speaker 4 yeah, I think just the realization that we could take it to the masses, that people would approach me in the street, that never happened in England where I grew up.

Speaker 4 So yeah, suddenly it was like, okay,

Speaker 4 we're growing the game, we're bringing new audiences in, new eyeballs. And I think that was the one thing when I was growing up, I felt lacked.

Speaker 4 In the UK, it was like

Speaker 4 the recognition, the understanding that chess is actually a cool game. It's not just a hobby.

Speaker 4 And yeah, these days, that's what drives me, just to keep,

Speaker 4 yeah, bringing the game, pumping it up and showing the world.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's cool to see where it's gone because it's similar to gaming, where like used to get made fun of for being a gamer nerd.

Speaker 4 You did too? Yeah.

Speaker 2 I wasn't that good at it, but I saw people get bullied for being gaming nerds. And now it's like people do it for a living.

Speaker 4 Yeah, exactly. And it's a pretty decent living

Speaker 4 at the top levels. It's worth it.
And I think it's more accepted these days, like chess, gaming. Yep.
I'm going to the esports World Cup soon. It's like chess is part of that.
It's super cool. Nice.

Speaker 4 So, yeah, I'm hoping the stigma with slowly shaking it off.

Speaker 2 absolutely same with poker i know a lot of chess players play poker now too yeah a lot of similarities right have you gotten into poker i i try not to gamble

Speaker 4 i've got such an addictive personality it's like anything i do i have to try my best i have to keep going until i feel like i've achieved a good level and

Speaker 4 i lost a lot of money to some friends when i was playing poker as a teenager and i've gone cold turkey ever since

Speaker 2 how about yourself do you play i don't but i i respect a lot of those guys because it's not easy yeah it's like dog eat dog.

Speaker 2 Because you could still play perfectly and lose money. Exactly.
There's a luck factor. With chess, it's mostly skill, right? 99%.

Speaker 4 Yeah. I mean, your opponent might still play super well, but ultimately, if you play a perfect game, they play a perfect game.
It's a draw. But poker, it's

Speaker 2 far from it. Exactly.
You could lose to someone that's never played before.

Speaker 4 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 Trust me, I have.

Speaker 2 So right now, becoming a GM, like, it's, it's way, was it, would you say it's way harder than when you did it?

Speaker 4 Oh, it's, yeah, it's a good question like firstly like the competition is harder now like it's tougher now there's uh

Speaker 4 yeah you have so many more rivals but back when i did it like it was harder to travel to tournaments there were fewer tournaments fewer opportunities so um

Speaker 4 yeah i mean i i'd like to think it was tougher back in the day but maybe that's just because i did it and i want to like hire hype up my achievement more but uh yeah there are more grandmasters than ever now i think there's like one thousand seven hundred kind of in history wow um so it's uh or roughly that number.

Speaker 4 So it's still pretty like exclusive the club. And

Speaker 4 just the fact that 12 year olds are doing it doesn't mean it's like it's the norm. So yeah, it's still pretty tough these days.

Speaker 2 And back then there was no online, right? So you had to play all in person.

Speaker 4 Yeah, like online kind of kicked in when I was a teenager. And

Speaker 4 I mean, talking of addiction, like I was playing like 12 hours a day. I was like waiting for my parents to go to sleep and I'd be like playing under the covers.
That's funny.

Speaker 2 I used to do that with Pokemon on the Game Boy on DS.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I missed the Pokemon. That was my first true love.

Speaker 2 I think Fire Red was my first one.

Speaker 4 Okay, Fire Red. I was Pokemon Red.
Oh, the old school Game Boy. The battery.
The battery, yeah.

Speaker 4 Pokemon Yellow, that was my favourite.

Speaker 2 That was a good one. The Zapatos.

Speaker 2 Or was that the Pikachu?

Speaker 4 It was Pikachu. Pikachu, yeah, yeah.
And you could get, like, Squiddle, Charlmander, and Bulbasaur all together. Yeah.
That was the.

Speaker 2 And now look at the guys making a living off Pokemon cards.

Speaker 4 I know, man. I had a shiny Charizard when I was a kid.

Speaker 2 First edition?

Speaker 4 First edition. And

Speaker 4 in school, I got persuaded to trade it for four cards. And my friend was like, four for one.

Speaker 4 Come on, you have to make this. It's the deal of the century.
And now I want to cry every time I look and see how much it's worth.

Speaker 2 Does he still have it?

Speaker 4 I don't talk to him anymore. That or that rascal.

Speaker 2 Man, there's probably a good chance he threw it out or something, honestly.

Speaker 4 Yeah, or he sold it, and he's probably bought a house off it. I don't know.
What are they worth now?

Speaker 4 It's in the hundreds of thousands. Holy crap.

Speaker 2 That's for the raw or for the graded?

Speaker 4 I'm not sure.

Speaker 2 Yeah,'cause it probably PSA ten, but either way.

Speaker 4 Either way, it's that's why I had to play chess for a living. Make up the money that I lost on the playground when I was a kid.

Speaker 2 Was the money good at first? Because I know later

Speaker 4 now it's really good, but yeah, I mean, when I was coming through the ranks, it was it was tough. Like, my family, they're not so weren't so well off.
And

Speaker 4 like my dad had to work extra shifts just to fund the travel for tournaments. Like, he was working, like, 18-hour shifts as a doctor, like, constantly.

Speaker 4 and the prize money wasn't great um i think like it's a bit like some sports like tennis for example if you're at the very top it's very good but in the middle of the pack it's still you feel like you're in limbo like when i was even as a grandmaster even before i started commentating like the pandemic uh hit i was struggling to make a living like dang like as a grandmaster as a grandmaster yeah i mean most grandmasters they make a living through teaching or some now do content creation and

Speaker 4 because playing tournaments like there's no guarantees you often have to win to just to pay rent like uh and it's a lot of pressure like uh i think mental health is a big thing in chess like there's been a lot of like kind of elite players who've struggled because just that pressure day in day out of needing to win and pain when you lose and you're like wait i can't make ends meet i don't have another tournament for three months yeah it's it's it's been tough but uh it's nice to see it's getting better yeah thanks for being so open about that i had no idea but that makes a lot of sense because if the money's not there and you're dedicating decades eight hours a day yeah yeah that could get stressful yeah i mean i would regularly play tournaments and it's like national championships and it's kind of it'll be a 10-day tournament first prize would be a couple of thousand dollars that's it yeah and you pay your own accommodation so like if you win you might break even you might make a bit of a profit yeah because a hotel's like 200 a night so exactly you're not even making money at that point plus the travel exactly so yeah maybe travel or come was slightly cheaper back in the day but then it's still like you're fighting against like your fellow professionals just to just to kind of stay afloat so chess has really come a long way then yeah it's it's nice to see like uh on the one hand i'm a bit gutted i'm like ah my peak you know it wasn't so great when i was you know that good but uh but it's nice to see the younger generation coming through now and like the likes of magnus carls hikaru nakamura they're kind of leading the way fighting for their fellow pros and uh

Speaker 4 And yeah, it's very decent these days, if you're at the top.

Speaker 4 But still, there is this kind of

Speaker 4 level where it's kind of you don't know whether you can fully make a living off playing and uh I think that's the toughest toughest part.

Speaker 2 Were you uh tutoring on the side to kind of get by?

Speaker 4 Yeah, like I was studying at university and I was kind of uh yeah, moonlighting, just uh doing a bit of uh teaching on the side and writing for newspapers, magazines about chess just to make ends meet.

Speaker 4 Wow.

Speaker 4 Like I'm glad I did it, but uh but yeah, it's sad that it's like in in any profession that you have kind of at the top you still have to kind of rely on the uh side hustles.

Speaker 2 You see a lot of sports like that, like even basketball.

Speaker 2 The first guys didn't make that much, they were working nine to fives on the side and now they're all making crazy money.

Speaker 4 Yeah, like yeah, I pity those pros, like the best in the world at the time and now like they see

Speaker 4 they see the top guys now. It's just a different universe.

Speaker 2 Well at least now you can make money through the content, right?

Speaker 4 True, true. I mean, that's what I do these days.

Speaker 4 Mainly I commentate on chess events and I think I enjoy that more because it's a bit more stable and you're kind of master of your own destiny unlike in a tournament where you might lose a last game and end up walking away with nothing so I think content in all fields it's as you probably know it's it's a nice kind of

Speaker 4 it's a steady one if you still have that work ethic and you still have that consistency what's the secret to getting people hyped up with chess commentary

Speaker 4 good question

Speaker 4 I think when I was young and green, I was like, I was just talking about chess, I was talking about the pieces, going super deep into the weeds, and then I realized like maybe 1% of the audience understands that.

Speaker 4 So I think the thing is to stay quite general, keep it about the storyline. So it's not necessarily about, oh, White could play this move and win 10 moves down the line after this concrete variation.

Speaker 4 It's more about like, okay, this is Magnus Carlson. He's playing on the attack.
He's being very aggressive against Hikaru Nakamura.

Speaker 4 Like here, he only has one move though to survive. He has to find it.
It's kind of building the storyline, building the rivalries. And I'm hoping at least

Speaker 4 that's the recipe. But yeah, we're still kind of experimenting.
It's still very new, like chess commentary, chess content creation. It's still kind of in its early days.

Speaker 4 So we're all learning a lot every day.

Speaker 2 Where do you see the modes taking? Like, which modes do you see taking off in the future? Like, Blitz, Classical, like, do you see any particular trends?

Speaker 4 Yeah, I mean, just like life, chess is getting faster. I'm a bit of a classicist at heart.
I'm a bit old-fashioned, a bit of a romantic. I remember the days of the seven-hour matches.

Speaker 4 I was famous for them back in the day, and just the feeling of kind of tiring your opponent out, like doing it the hard way, putting in some graft.

Speaker 4 And also, the level is much higher. Like, with more time on the clock in chess, you make fewer mistakes, you get time to dig deep and see all the possible futures and

Speaker 4 analyze a bit deeper. But I don't know, the fans, they want to see the quick games.
So, I think rapid chess right now now is maybe the most popular.

Speaker 4 Magnus Carlson, the world number one, he's pushing freestyle chess where it's kind of the pieces are shuffled on the first rank. And

Speaker 4 that's very interesting, but maybe harder to get into for the kind of for the beginners. It's like you have to unlearn a lot of the things you learnt about traditional chess.

Speaker 4 But yeah, I think rapid chess, so that's like 10, 15 minutes each on the clock plus a few seconds after every move. I think that's kind of the sweet spot.
You get enough time, but

Speaker 4 you never get bored.

Speaker 2 You're seeing that with content, too. You're seeing people want to see the shorts now, not the full videos anymore.

Speaker 4 Yeah, like, was that weird for you? Like, kind of.

Speaker 2 I have ADHD, so I've always like I watch videos at 2x speed.

Speaker 4 I'm one of those freaks. How do you do it?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I don't know. I just.

Speaker 4 I've tried. It's so fast.
Really?

Speaker 2 Yeah. So if it's too slow for me, I just get bored.
Like, you know what I mean? Yeah. So you watch at 1x? I do.
Yeah. Wow.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 4 Is that a weird thing?

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 2 That's not normal for kids my age at least. Okay.
Most people do like 1.25, 1.5

Speaker 2 but i trained myself to get up to two that's impressive yeah i got one friend that does forex for audiobooks and he still like

Speaker 4 wow that's crazy crazy right i'll blame my age

Speaker 4 yeah like back in the day i used to play one minute chess like religiously just like bang bang bang fast hundreds of games a day but like uh yeah i think age catches up and you slowing down is uh It's a nice luxury.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 2 What was the highest rated in the world you were at your peak?

Speaker 4 So my ELO rating, so that's like the World Chess Federation's rating, was

Speaker 4 2,712.

Speaker 4 So I was like number 30, 30-something in the world, 35, 36.

Speaker 4 But

Speaker 4 I don't know. I still feel like I have unfinished business.
Now I'm like number 50 or 60.

Speaker 2 That's still really good, though.

Speaker 4 Thanks. But I don't play so much.

Speaker 4 I get triggered sometimes. My friends tease me.
They're like, you could have been better. You should have been better.
Like, you just, you were too lazy back in the day.

Speaker 4 So yeah, I think it's never enough. Like unless you're number one in the world, that's never enough, right?

Speaker 2 Do you think Magnus still feels like he has more to give to the game?

Speaker 4 I hope so. Like, I hope he's motivated.
Like, he's one of my good friends. And

Speaker 4 he sets himself these micro targets these days and mini goals.

Speaker 4 So it's not about staying number one anymore because he's done it for 15 years. It's about

Speaker 4 can he win this tournament with a perfect score? Can he beat this rival 10 times in a row?

Speaker 2 Like it's just keeping yourself motivated like in any field yeah is the key i saw someone ask you who the greatest of all time is and you said magnus and kasparov tied is there anything magnus can do to surpass him in your eyes

Speaker 4 if magnus had held on to the world championship title a bit longer like he walked away a couple of years ago now but if he held on to that i would have said yeah it's magnus like i think if he defended his title one or two more times No question, he's the number one.

Speaker 4 It's different back in the day. Like there weren't so many speed chest tournaments.
So, Kasparov, who's a legend, like he didn't need to show his dominance across all these different formats.

Speaker 4 He was like the king of classical chess, king of long chess. He was ahead of the game.
He was like super in tune with AI and technology when that kicked in.

Speaker 4 So he was kind of, he had this edge. But

Speaker 4 yeah, Magnus is close. I think it's just because I grew up with Kasparov on my wall.

Speaker 4 I'm biased, yeah. But I think for the kids these days, Magnus, like they call him the goat, and it's hard to argue.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Have you beaten a drunk Magnus before in Trust?

Speaker 4 I have, but he's had to be quite drunk.

Speaker 4 I've been maybe less drunk this time.

Speaker 2 Those are my favourite streams. Yeah, you're just.
Those drunk streams, yeah.

Speaker 2 You still win somehow.

Speaker 4 I know. Like, I think number one in the world, Magnus Carlson, number two in the world, drunk Magnus.
That's how it's been for a while now. But he doesn't drink these days.
He's more sensible.

Speaker 4 He realizes, like, he needs every kind of edge he can get against the young guys. Every brain cell.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I mean, there's fewer and fewer at this age.

Speaker 2 When I was a track track runner, they had a beer mile. Have you heard of that? I've heard of it.

Speaker 2 So, every lap, you drink a can of beer, and then so you drink four beers basically, and then run a mile.

Speaker 4 You're still are you staggering by the end, or yeah, you're kind of wobbly.

Speaker 2 Depends how lightweight you are, I guess. But four beers in five, seven minutes is pretty

Speaker 2 fast, you know?

Speaker 4 Yeah, and I guess you can't like have a full stomach beforehand if you're running, like, just to absorb the alcohol.

Speaker 2 Yeah, you got to be empty.

Speaker 4 Yeah, okay. I'm, yeah, I'm up for trying like

Speaker 2 drinking chess challenges sometime, but uh, would you do uh chess boxing ever?

Speaker 4 I would have to train for a while and I would need someone to fight against that would like inspire me to get in shape. Okay,'cause you got the reach.

Speaker 2 You're you're quite tall.

Speaker 4 Not as tall as you. Not as tall as me, but

Speaker 4 you know, yeah.

Speaker 2 For a chess player, I feel like you're taller than average, right?

Speaker 4 Yeah, I I mean I'm six two, so um well at least that's why I tell people six one and a half is you always round up as a guy. Exactly.
But

Speaker 4 yeah, I'd be open to it. But like my partner, she's like, no, your brain is your most prized commodity.
Right. Don't risk it.

Speaker 2 That's why I haven't done any boxing either. I really because I'm a podcaster.
I need my brain to talk to people.

Speaker 4 It's great exercise, though. It's great fitness.
It is.

Speaker 2 It's good cardio.

Speaker 2 I just think there's other cardio that you could do, you know? That's true. But money talks.

Speaker 4 Mm-hmm. Okay.
So any listeners out there, you're open to that.

Speaker 2 My price would be a million.

Speaker 4 To chess box. Yeah.

Speaker 2 I'm not there yet. I would need to build the podcast some more, but I don't think it's worth like like a hundred thousand for me right now.
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 4 Makes sense, you know? Yeah.

Speaker 2 What's your price?

Speaker 2 Probably lower than a million, but really you're a GM.

Speaker 4 I don't know what these trusts make.

Speaker 2 I could probably look really stupid by even saying a million.

Speaker 4 I don't know what they're making, but I mean, one million, I would say yes, like no doubt. But below that, it's tough.

Speaker 2 It's tough, right?

Speaker 4 Yeah, it's hard to like.

Speaker 2 Yeah, because if you get a concussion, I mean, a lot of people theorize you're never the same after that.

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Speaker 4 I mean, especially with chests, I can't imagine. Like, uh,

Speaker 4 the road to recovery would be ages. It would take so long.
Yeah, I've heard.

Speaker 2 Um, how How common is cheating in chess these days?

Speaker 4 Oof, the C word.

Speaker 2 The C word.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I'd like to think it's not super commonplace.

Speaker 4 I was scarred. So these days, a lot of the cheating takes place online.
And

Speaker 4 that's hard to track and

Speaker 4 hard to even be 100% about ever.

Speaker 4 But I was the victim

Speaker 4 at my, well, close to my peak. So it was back in 2010.
I was playing for England against France. It was the Chess Olympiad.
So it were the top nations competing.

Speaker 4 I lost a really painful game. I had the white pieces, and I nearly never lose with whites, or at least I didn't at the time.
So

Speaker 4 I walked away from the game being like, something was up there. Like, I just got crushed.
I never get crushed like that, even against the top players in the world.

Speaker 4 And then it turned out my opponent had been cheating.

Speaker 4 They had this convoluted system of like his team captain would walk behind me and stop a certain number of times to signal the coordinates, the square.

Speaker 4 And they had a friend, he would go to the bathroom, call a friend back home, sitting there with a computer, and

Speaker 4 they got found out in a really weird way. Like, it turns out that

Speaker 4 one of the accomplices had been

Speaker 4 shacking up with someone at the National Federation, and they'd seen the phone, and kind of it all got revealed. But

Speaker 4 ever since that moment, I've been super paranoid.

Speaker 4 I got dropped from the England team for a few games after that, but I was like, wait, I didn't even play that badly. I just, like, I was playing perfection.
And computers are so good nowadays,

Speaker 4 uh it's hard to uh hard to put up a fight but uh yeah so for like five years after that anytime my opponents would play well i would be like

Speaker 4 someone needs to check them scan them like um but these days i'm pretty chill about it i think at the top level everyone has too much to risk i don't think there's much cheating there but yeah uh but chess.com they did release a report just uh just today i think oh really uh and they said uh a hundred thousand accounts on their platform were closed in the last month alone holy crap for cheating that's a lot that's a lot i'd imagine it's a lot lot of the same people though making accounts.

Speaker 4 Exactly. I think 40% of the accounts that were closed for cheating were brand new.
So

Speaker 4 yeah, it's there. It's just

Speaker 4 something that nobody wants to think about and there's it's very hard to police it. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Wow. So that guy would have never got caught if he wasn't hooking up with that girl.

Speaker 4 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 So who knows how many times you've been cheated in the past, you know?

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 4 I just don't want to think about it. It's depressing.
It's depressing. But yeah, I mean, I think that's one thing where chess has an issue compared to other sports games.

Speaker 4 It's just, I guess there's doping and other, like, yeah, poker, there's solvers.

Speaker 2 That's the thing in poker. But it's, even with the solver, it's still not like 100% you're going to win if you're using it.

Speaker 4 Yeah, but chess is close to, at least at the top level.

Speaker 2 Right, because the computers are so good, right?

Speaker 4 They're so good. Like, all Magnus Carson needs is a tap on his shoulder, being like,

Speaker 4 This is the critical moment in the game. Focus now.
Like, that's it. That's it.

Speaker 2 Just one tap, and he'll lock it in and find the move.

Speaker 4 Exactly. I think if you tapped me on the shoulder like when there was a critical moment against Magnus, I would be the favorite.
Yeah. I think that's how important it is at the top level.
Holy crap.

Speaker 2 That's insane.

Speaker 4 That's why it's scary

Speaker 4 to think what could be going on.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that is scary. I guess, but their AI detects cheaters on the apps, right?

Speaker 4 Yeah, yeah. I mean, the algorithms on chess.com, like, they...
they catch like probably 100% of

Speaker 4 I'll call them like basic cheaters who just copy exactly what the computer tells them.

Speaker 4 The hard thing is like when you're playing someone experienced, clever, who's already got a certain mastery of the game and they just use it like sporadically.

Speaker 4 That's like if they're using it once or twice a game at these critical moments, it still makes a big impact on the results. And

Speaker 4 that one is the hard.

Speaker 2 Right, because at the top level, one move wins you the game, one mistake wins you the game, right?

Speaker 4 Exactly. Like if you know exactly when your opponent's made that mistake, I mean, yeah, that's critical.
That's decisive.

Speaker 2 Dang, that's nuts. Well, hopefully they figure something out.

Speaker 4 I hope so, too.

Speaker 2 Out of your three British champions, which one felt the best?

Speaker 4 Oof.

Speaker 4 I'm going to say 2013 British Championship. The second one? The second one, yeah.
I mean, 2009, I was 18 years old, and it was a bit of a surprise, I feel, to myself, that I

Speaker 4 won the national title. But the second one, like, it was tough.
Like,

Speaker 4 I just finished university. Like, my dad had died a few months earlier, and I was just not in the right mindset.
Wow. But somehow I managed to knuckle down and focus.
And

Speaker 4 yeah, that was special. I think top three of my all-time results.
Really?

Speaker 2 That's awesome, man. So you're good at separating the personal stuff while you're playing, usually?

Speaker 4 I'd like to think so, but I've always been known as a bit of an emotional guy, a bit of a choker. Big moments I crack.

Speaker 4 Really? Yeah. There have been many times.

Speaker 4 I can't sleep the night before a big game. There's so much money on the line.
There's titles on the line.

Speaker 4 There were two times that I nearly qualified for the candidates tournament interest, and and that's like top eight in the world and like the world championship cycle it's quite deep in.

Speaker 4 But both times I just couldn't sleep, couldn't control my emotions and both times I failed like at the final hurdle. So

Speaker 4 yeah, it's it's hard but like it takes an a lot of focus, a lot of determination to forget everything.

Speaker 4 I think most chess players they'll tell you they they have music going on in their minds at the same time or they ha like they'll be thinking about what to do for dinner, they'll be thinking about who they're gonna be chatting up in the bar later and and it's hard to focus on the the moves for like six hours sitting there.

Speaker 4 But um but I think the top players, that's that's why the kids are so good these days. They just have the single

Speaker 4 kind of single-mindedness. Um and yeah, I wish I'd seen a sports psychologist, I think, a a lot younger because that's so important in chess.

Speaker 2 That's a big thing now, right?

Speaker 4 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I know the poker guys use those too.

Speaker 4 Yeah, and it it works. Like like everyone's so good that you need that one percent, you need that focus.

Speaker 4 And the world chess champion Gukesh, he's he's known for meditating, he's he's known for speaking to um professionals about yeah mindset and it's yeah

Speaker 2 it's uh no coincidence he's world champion where do you think his ceiling is you think he can surpass Magnus one day

Speaker 4 um

Speaker 4 I think he's I mean he can dominate the chess world uh if uh if he kind of continues this trajectory but it's been it's been so fast his rise to the top and there are a lot of other kids who are really good.

Speaker 4 Like the Indians are dominating the chess world at the moment at the top level. There's like several of them in the world top ten, and they're all around the same age, like this golden generation.

Speaker 4 So, wow, like, uh, if it wasn't for the fact that his rivals were also so good, then I would say, like, he's a unique talent, like, he's Magnus levels, but

Speaker 4 it's early to say. And I hate putting like pressure on kids' shoulders.
So, um, yeah, he's he's very, very good.

Speaker 2 We gotta watch out for India, huh?

Speaker 4 Yeah, yeah. I mean, they're doing all the right things.
The infrastructure is there, like, uh, chess has lacked that throughout the world.

Speaker 4 But, uh, now there are, like, chess-based India is this this great like

Speaker 4 channel, social media channel. Now, there's so much sponsorship in India, there's a lot of money coming into chess, and it's great to see.
But that

Speaker 4 helps the young players accelerate their progress.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that makes sense. Historically, who's been the best country over since chess was around? Yeah, I mean,

Speaker 4 USSR, Russia, like the Soviets used to dominate back in the day.

Speaker 4 But I think this for the first time in God knows how long, maybe ever, recently, there were no Russians in the top 10 in the world. So things are changing.
Like the US now has some great players.

Speaker 4 India is, I think, the dominant force. But even smaller countries like Uzbekistan, like they've won some chess Olympiads.

Speaker 4 I mean, Norway, like with Magnus, they've done decently recently. So

Speaker 4 yeah, traditionally it's always been Europe, but now it's much more kind of globalized. And it's nice to see.

Speaker 2 Has the US ever won an Olympiad? Yes. Oh, they have?

Speaker 4 I think it was in 2016. Wow.
So, yeah. They had Hikaru Nakamura.
They had

Speaker 4 a lot of the top U.S. players, they've kind of been imported but naturalized here.

Speaker 2 Yeah, Wesley So, right?

Speaker 4 Wesley So, yeah, Lenia Dominguez, who's from Cuba, moved over. Levon Aronian, Armenian, moved to US.

Speaker 4 I mean, it's great to see that, like, St. Louis is a big kind of central chess hub now in the world.

Speaker 2 St. Louis, Missouri? Yeah, St.

Speaker 4 Louis, Missouri.

Speaker 2 I never would have guessed that. Yeah, exactly.
That's like in the south and like the middle of nowhere.

Speaker 4 Yeah, like they've got this chess club that have been doing great things for 15 years uh or more now um they're kind of bankrolled by rex sinkfield a billionaire which which helps but uh but yeah the us india they're all doing the right things okay okay

Speaker 2 do you think uh trash talking should be allowed at the chess table

Speaker 4 um i'm really bad at it so i'm gonna say no

Speaker 4 but uh i do know a lot of like professionals who um quite enjoy the idea and I know a lot of fans who would I think it'd make it interesting for the fans exactly like it might be more spicy to tune in build the rivalries like

Speaker 4 I mean it's hard to look at a picture of two guys sitting opposite each other or two girls sitting opposite each other and say like they hate each other

Speaker 4 they're just there silently for six hours like if they were trash talking maybe that's I think it could add an element I think someone should try and see how it goes exactly I mean a lot of the streamers the content creators these days they're trying these types of things but it would be cool to see at the top level like uh as well so because it would add another component to the game too yeah A mental component.

Speaker 4 Exactly. And psychology is super important already, but to add kind of,

Speaker 4 I don't know, being attacked on all sides, on the board, you know, verbally.

Speaker 2 Like, imagine if Hans could talk at the table.

Speaker 4 I mean,

Speaker 4 I would give up against him on this one. Like, he would, yeah.

Speaker 2 You know, he would be popping off.

Speaker 4 He'd probably be the best at it.

Speaker 2 I think so, yeah. He's had to go through a lot.
Shout out to him, man. Crazy character arc.

Speaker 4 Yeah, Hans Neiman. I mean, he's a star already, but he's still so young.
And

Speaker 4 mean chess wise He's super talented I could see him challenging for the world title Maybe it's been a while since an American was world champion. Yeah,

Speaker 4 yeah, Hans Neiman watch this space.

Speaker 2 Yeah, shout out to Hans keep it up man. So freestyle chess it starts tomorrow, right?

Speaker 4 Yeah, so that's why I'm here in Vegas now I'm commentating on the freestyle tournament so all the best players in in the world are just kind of down the road Magnus Carlson Hikara Nakamura Hans Neiman and freestyle chess yeah it on paper it randomizes things a bit more like levels the playing field But yeah, Magnus Carlson, he's the favorite, that's for sure.

Speaker 2 Can you bet on it?

Speaker 4 I think you should be able to.

Speaker 4 I don't know any official platforms that allow it, but I think like there's definitely a market for it.

Speaker 2 Yeah, definitely. Sports betting is big out here.
I can imagine. Are you in Vegas often?

Speaker 4 First time. Oh, really? First time, yeah.
So melting in the heat here for me was like a brand new experience to me.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I should have warned you. I didn't know that you were a first timer.

Speaker 4 Yeah, yeah. Like I've been to the U.S.
plenty of times, but never Vegas. I'm hoping that this becomes like a yearly event, the Freestyle Chess.

Speaker 4 And like my first night I arrived, like I was staying at this hotel, like Backstreet Boys are playing next door. The sphere, yeah.

Speaker 4 Next to this, yeah, next to the sphere and like casino right downstairs. I was mind-blown.
Like Vegas is never seen it.

Speaker 2 First time in Vegas rocked me. I didn't know like about all the hotels and everything.
Yeah, there's a lot of cool stuff for the first time.

Speaker 4 Did you know you wanted to move here after the first time?

Speaker 2 No, the first time I was here, I was like, I would never live here, actually.

Speaker 4 What changed? What changed?

Speaker 4 COVID.

Speaker 4 Yeah, the pandemic was rough out here and i was in la at the time and i couldn't do anything so we came here more going on yeah was it rough in uh were you in norway when uh i was actually so i'm yeah i'm born on the southeast coast of england and i was there like i went to university in wales but i was there most of my life um like i was living in london for a while and then covid hit and yeah there was nothing going on it was rough out there right super rough yeah full lockdown like um yeah you were allowed these bubbles you were allowed to like meet one or two people but it's um yeah and then i got a a call to commentate chess in Norway and never really done it before, and that was five years ago.

Speaker 4 Wow, was that for chess.com? Um it was for at the time it was a rival company.

Speaker 4 Uh it was the Play Magnus group, so it was like Magnus, I've known him since we were like eight years old, and um it was his company at the time, but now they've been kind of they've uh

Speaker 4 there was a takeover, there was a kind of a they merged, right?

Speaker 4 They merged up and uh yeah, so now I do a lot of stuff with chess.com and uh take take take that's Magnus' uh other company and um But yeah, I was working in a TV studio and I was like,

Speaker 4 bright lights, like the cold of Norway didn't bother me. I guess the Scandinavians and the Brits, we have a lot in common, drinking culture.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I fell in love with the country immediately. That's cool, man.

Speaker 2 I want to get out there one of these days.

Speaker 4 Let me know. Hit me up.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I'll definitely let you know. When did you know Magnus was

Speaker 2 goat potential? Like, what age?

Speaker 4 Oof. Yeah, I mean, there were whisperings about him.

Speaker 4 I mean, I was, I mentioned earlier, like, I was decently talented when I was a kid, and this 1990 generation, like, there's a bunch of grandmasters born in the year 1990, and we were all kind of pushing each other.

Speaker 4 But I remember I was one of the top guys.

Speaker 4 I would win some medals at these youth events, and then there were a couple of others, and then suddenly this random blonde kid turned up, and we were like, he can't be good, you know, never heard of him before, and suddenly

Speaker 4 he started crushing people. I would say 13 years old, probably.

Speaker 4 He drew against Gary Kasparov, who was still active at the time world number one

Speaker 4 so

Speaker 4 yeah it was probably after that he kicked off but it was only kind of in his mid-teens that it was clear like he was destined destined for the top and destined to stay there wow I wonder what made him just excel so quickly at that age yeah I mean Magnus like it's the love of chess it's like the thirst for knowledge he's always reading about the game he's always researching he's always like on his phone checking out games from the Norwegian under-12 championship it's like looking for new ideas but also he has this incredible memory.

Speaker 4 Like,

Speaker 4 yeah, even today, like, just before I came here, he was sitting at lunch and he was like testing people on

Speaker 4 kind of soccer, football, Champions League teams, like names, countries, like badges.

Speaker 4 It's just another level to me. I can barely remember what I had for dinner last night, and

Speaker 4 he's remembering what the capital of all these counties are, let alone countries.

Speaker 2 I wonder if he has photographic memory.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I don't think he likes to talk about it so much, but I think it is like to some extent it's it's there. Like he can remember what like page of a book he saw a chest position and that's wow.

Speaker 4 That's unique.

Speaker 2 Yeah, because I'd imagine the top players have to recall some previous positions, right? Yeah. And they need really good memory.

Speaker 4 Yeah. Normally it's quite an active process.
You have to like

Speaker 4 like uh play it on a board hundreds of times in order for it to absorb, but Magnus, he sees a position and it's there in his brain.

Speaker 2 Just one time he sees it and it's there.

Speaker 4 Yeah, it's uh yeah, it's impressive.

Speaker 2 That's super impressive.

Speaker 4 Wow.

Speaker 2 What do you think of Queen's Gambit, honestly?

Speaker 4 Yeah, I liked it. Like, I must admit, I actually held off as long as possible

Speaker 4 before watching it just because the hype was so big. And I was like, come on, it's a chess show.
Of course, it's not going to be realistic.

Speaker 4 Of course, it's like it's not going to portray chess players in a good light. But then eventually, I had to write an article about it.
And I was like, okay, go on then.

Speaker 4 And I watched it all in one sitting. And

Speaker 4 it's just nice to see that the chessboard was set up right in every scene. That's That's rare.
Like every movie, every TV show, they get it set up wrong. Really?

Speaker 4 They always put the black square in the bottom right corner but it's maybe it's because cameras are flipped but

Speaker 4 but the Queen's Gambit they nailed it. They had some chess advisors and

Speaker 4 I did like it yeah.

Speaker 4 I wish he didn't have like these

Speaker 4 I don't know these pill addictions and things because

Speaker 4 chess players were always portrayed with some kind of

Speaker 2 some kind of scene is crazy, right?

Speaker 4 Yeah yeah but I mean it was super fun to watch and it inspired, like, thousands, hundreds of thousands of people to take up the game. And that's, yeah, that's the main thing.

Speaker 2 Yeah, so many people went to chess.com after that, right?

Speaker 4 Exactly. Like, it blew up.
Like, it was maybe the pandemic boom and everyone's sitting at home playing chess, but also Queen's Gambit, Netflix. And

Speaker 4 yeah, I'm waiting for the next one. I'm waiting for BBC.
Yeah, the BBC show.

Speaker 2 Let's go. We'll link it in the description.

Speaker 4 Perfect. Chess Masters.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Chess Masters.
What's that show about?

Speaker 4 Yeah, so it's kind of a quiz quiz show. I was one of the presenters alongside a couple of others, a chess guy and a very famous comedian in the UK.

Speaker 4 And we had 12 competitors, amateur players from all around the country, all different backgrounds,

Speaker 4 and we would put them through their paces, like puzzles, chess games. And yeah, ultimately, there was a winner, no spoilers.
But yeah, so it's kind of... Quiz show meets chess, meets reality TV.
And

Speaker 4 currently waiting to see if we get a second go. So hoping it gets recommissioned.

Speaker 2 Sending good energy your way.

Speaker 4 Thank you.

Speaker 2 Do you think anyone will challenge Fide? Because I know there are talks about someone trying to compete with them, right?

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 4 I mean Fide, they've had their critics. I've been one of them for a while.
Like they've like I think past

Speaker 4 presidencies, past

Speaker 4 yeah,

Speaker 4 yeah, in the past, they didn't do enough to promote chess. Like

Speaker 4 there's so much potential now, like all these different sportsmen, all these great actors, actresses, they're so interested in chess.

Speaker 4 Like Queen's Gambit was there, but somehow these big tournaments, there wasn't prize money, like barely.

Speaker 4 The whole system was a bit

Speaker 4 I won't say corrupt, but just old school. Yeah, very old school.
And

Speaker 4 now it's a bit more modernized. They're kind of taking more of an active role.
But yeah, I mean, I would love to see everyone come together and unite. Like chess.com Fide, there was some tension.

Speaker 4 Magnus and Fide, there was some tension.

Speaker 4 Yeah, and it's it's sad to see. Like, um, chess hits the front pages for the drama.

Speaker 4 That's just how it is. But I would love to see it for good reasons, for positive stuff.
And

Speaker 4 I mean, it's moving in the right direction. Just maybe not as quickly as it expects.
That's good.

Speaker 2 I think competition will help in the long run.

Speaker 2 It always does. Because you get too comfortable if you're the only league.

Speaker 4 Yeah. And now, I mean, there's plenty.
There's freestyle chess. There's chess.com.
There's Fide. There's

Speaker 4 Esports World Cup now coming in. There's plenty.

Speaker 4 So I'm hoping that, yeah, like you say, competition

Speaker 4 breeds the better chess world.

Speaker 2 Yeah. So chess.com has their own championship league too?

Speaker 4 They host a lot of tournaments, yeah, and they have the biggest audiences and the biggest budgets often. And they do good work.
So,

Speaker 4 yeah, it's just whether they can work together and kind of I think the one thing chess lacks compared to like tennis and other individual sports is this kind of coherent like tour or like regular schedule, the regular system.

Speaker 4 Right, the media, right? Exactly. And like tennis, you know what to expect.
You know, four times a year there's a grand slam. Between there's some big tournaments.

Speaker 4 Now it's like every week a different tournament, chess tournament pops up.

Speaker 2 I don't even know the names of all of them. I just see one on my phone.
I'm like, oh, that's a new one.

Speaker 4 That's my point. Yeah.
I want it to be like recognizable. People are super excited.
They're like, oh,

Speaker 4 it's now July. That means it's this tournament.
Right. And it's known this tournament to be in a place for a reason.
It's super exciting for its own unique...

Speaker 4 for its own unique purpose. And yeah, that's my goal Sunday to kind of help the chess world be more kind of appealing and to maintain the fans rather than for them to drop in and out.

Speaker 2 That'd be great. How's the in-person showing? Is there a lot of people that pull up to these?

Speaker 4 There's a few.

Speaker 4 I hope you'll visit this one in the next video. I'm going to come tomorrow, yeah.

Speaker 2 I've never been to a chess event. I'm really excited, man.

Speaker 4 Wow. Okay, you've started.
Yeah, you'll be starting on a high there. It's a good one.
There'll be an in-person audience.

Speaker 4 There isn't always, but the unique thing here in Vegas for the freestyle event is that the audience is, they'll have headphones on and they can hear, if they're not sick of my voice after this,

Speaker 4 they can hear me commentate while they watch the

Speaker 4 chess games. They'll be a few meters away from the players.
So it's a really kind of intimate experience.

Speaker 2 Nice. That's cool, man.
Well, David, this has been really fun. I've learned a lot.
Can't wait to see what you do next. Where can people find you and support you?

Speaker 4 Yeah, I mean, for now, social media, like, yeah, you can drop the links. I won't go on too much.
But yeah, I commentate on a lot of the biggest chess events.

Speaker 4 So if you're interested, yeah, go check out this chess event.

Speaker 4 Take it, take. Let's go.

Speaker 2 Love you guys.

Speaker 2 I hope you guys are enjoying the show. Please don't forget to like and subscribe.
It helps the show a lot with the algorithm.

Speaker 4 Thank you.

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