Bryan Calcott vs Demon Erasers : Do You Need Religion to Be a Good Person? | DSH #1597

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Speaker 1 Some of the worst people I've ever met in my life have been Christians. Some of the most moral people have all been atheists.

Speaker 1 And part of the reason why I say that is because an atheist doesn't believe that they're going to be judged for their actions.

Speaker 2 I am a Christian and I follow Christ. What that means is to follow Christ and operate in love.

Speaker 2 And one of the biggest things that I think, unfortunately, a lot of Christians don't do is operate in love.

Speaker 1 I know what's right, I know what's wrong, and I don't have to believe in the fear of hell and the reward of heaven in order to to be motivated to do right towards my fellow man.

Speaker 2 Religion doesn't really matter and he came to show us that basically it is your heart that matters and the way you treat people and the way you love people like God is love.

Speaker 4 Okay guys, another debate for you guys today. We have a Christian versus a non-theist today.
Both with the same name and both have been guests on the show. So gentlemen, thanks for coming too.

Speaker 1 Yeah, we're both wise. We're both Brian with the Y.

Speaker 1 bro we got it the right way i know man we got it the right way we agree on something we agree that's the brian bondage right there um but yeah brian you shared your story with religion i think on our first episode right did you briefly go through that again so brian can understand what you went through so i my father was a pastor so i definitely come from a christian background I describe myself now, though, as a non-theist.

Speaker 1 And what I mean by that is that I believe the human condition is one of uncertainty. And I do not believe that you can conclude there is a God with certainty.

Speaker 1 However, I also believe that you cannot conclude that there is not a God with certainty. So I have

Speaker 1 found the most peace in life with admitting that the human condition is one of uncertainty and will always be one of uncertainty.

Speaker 1 And with that, I have found that I direct my energy towards living in the moment and really trying to capitalize on every second because to me, it's a very real possibility that this life is all we have.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 that rather than taking away from the enjoyment of life, I would say actually adds to it. And it makes me even more appreciative to be alive.

Speaker 1 And the other thing, too, when it comes to meaning and purpose, I can, you know, understand the appeal of wanting to believe that there is this loving and all-powerful God and that you are this special creature and he's created you for a purpose and you have a plan.

Speaker 1 I do understand, you know, why people are emotionally drawn to that.

Speaker 1 However, I also think about, well, you know, if we are a primordial ooze, and I just so happen to be here, and I really am the product of a one in like 400 trillion chance, if that's even possible, it also makes me unbelievably appreciative to be alive.

Speaker 1 So that's ultimately what it comes down to: is that I think intuitively I know what's right and I know what's wrong, and I don't have to believe in the fear of hell and the reward of heaven and order.

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Speaker 1 To be motivated to do right towards my fellow man,

Speaker 1 I enjoy helping people. I enjoy acting out of love rather than hate.
And I enjoy just knowing that maybe I am here just by chance. And to me, me, that is enough.

Speaker 1 I wake up every day with meaning and purpose.

Speaker 1 And like I said, it's to me, it's really just admitting the, you know, the reality of the uncertainty of the human condition that has given me the most peace.

Speaker 2 Okay, so the,

Speaker 2 I mean, you said intuitively and you said

Speaker 2 being like a good person, I guess you would assume. So that kind of assumes a lot of things when it comes to like God.
And just from my my perspective,

Speaker 2 I'm a Christian, unlike Jordan Peterson, must admit.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 2 So I am a Christian and I and I follow Christ. What that means is to follow Christ and operate in love.

Speaker 2 And one of the biggest things that I think, unfortunately, a lot of Christians don't do is operate in love. And I think you've been shown a pretty poor example.

Speaker 2 I mean, the fact that your father was, you know,

Speaker 2 you know, somebody that was a pastor and has like, obviously, you've been through, you shared a little little bit before about some of the trauma i think this is these are bad examples that uh you know that a lot of christians unfortunately put out and uh it it seems that

Speaker 2 that you know the the definition of what jesus came to show us is that religion doesn't really matter and he came to show us that

Speaker 2 basically it is your heart that matters and the way you treat people and the way you love people like god is love and so jesus's example, I think, is a very unique example that I think a lot of people sort of miss.

Speaker 2 And a lot of Christians, unfortunately, miss. They want to hold everybody to standards and rules.

Speaker 2 But it literally says in the Bible, it says, you know, all things are lawful, but not all things are profitable.

Speaker 2 And it says things like, you know, in the text, well, I read you that verse in Jeremiah, which was a pretty one.

Speaker 2 I guess I'll read that again because I think that this is kind of a pinnacle understanding of what.

Speaker 1 So do you believe in like heaven and hell do you believe in rewards and punishment and ultimately that to being the driving force to motivate people to follow a moral code does it say that in the bible no i'm just asking you is what it's because that's that's my like when i told my father i didn't believe yeah and i told him i didn't believe because some of the worst people I've ever met in my life have been Christians and some of the most moral people have all been atheists.

Speaker 1 And part of the reason why I say that is because an atheist doesn't believe that they're going to be judged for their actions. And yet they still do good.

Speaker 1 And we can get to the whole discussion about what defines good if you don't believe in God. But they still do good.

Speaker 1 And they don't do it because they think that they're going to stand in front of God and be judged. And I think that

Speaker 2 because they think that other people are going to hold a rule against them or some negative thing against them or well, I think it, well, I think that it makes them feel good.

Speaker 1 And I don't think that there's a problem. And granted, there are, and this is kind of what I went through with Jordan Peterson when when I was talking about benefits.

Speaker 1 He said, you know, are we talking about a whim? You know, are we talking about something deeper?

Speaker 1 So when I'm talking about good, when I'm talking about the benefit, if you want to get down to the Jordan Peterson semantics,

Speaker 1 I'm not talking about, you know, a dopamine rush. Oh, I just had a, you know, sip of coffee and woo, you know, I feel good.
I'm talking about, you know, the deeper, meaningful kinds of things.

Speaker 1 Like if you hold a baby in your arm, if you see, you know,

Speaker 1 an amazing sunset, you know what I mean? You know, things of that nature. When I say good, that's ultimately what I'm talking about.

Speaker 1 And I don't think that there's anything wrong with doing something that makes you feel good.

Speaker 1 So as long as it comes at the benefit of someone else, what I would say is wrong is when it's a zero-sum game and my benefit is coming at your expense.

Speaker 1 And what you ultimately see in those situations is that when I'm living at the expense of others, I think I'm being benefited, but ultimately I'm not.

Speaker 1 And when you go to like ecological systems, I'm obsessed with regenerative agriculture, and you look at what happens in the soil and how nothing exists in a vacuum.

Speaker 1 And there's this whole symbiotic relationship where if something is being taken, it's being given back at the same time.

Speaker 1 So to sit there and say that I'm motivated by good because it makes me feel good. And like I said, I'm not talking about a whim.
I'm talking about that deeper meaning.

Speaker 1 I don't think there's anything immoral or wrong with that. So as long as my good is also associated with your good.

Speaker 1 I'm not going to feel good about taking $100,000 from you, but I would feel good about making $100,000. Like you're a marketer, I market too.

Speaker 1 I would feel great about making $100,000 off of you because I just helped you launch a product and you just did $10,000, you know, $10 million in sales. We both benefited.

Speaker 1 So my whole concept of morality is symbiotic.

Speaker 1 And I think that when you look at life, the only reason life exists is because of that symbiotic relationship where if something is taken, it is given back.

Speaker 1 If it's only a one-way street, things don't sustain themselves. And ecosystems that have actors to where they're just taking from the system and they're not giving back, they ultimately collapse.

Speaker 1 And you see that in the human body with cancer cells.

Speaker 2 What about chickens?

Speaker 1 What about them?

Speaker 2 What do chickens give you other than eggs? Like, what do you give the chicken?

Speaker 1 Well, I mean, you're giving them life.

Speaker 2 So just giving them life? Yeah.

Speaker 1 Well, I mean, it's, and that's.

Speaker 2 What about at the life? So then you would say that the way they keep chickens in cages is probably ethically wrong then? Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1 Well, well, it's, and here's the deal. It's, once again, like you can sit there and say, okay, we're keeping chickens in cages and I'm still getting an egg, which is nutritionally benefiting me.

Speaker 1 But if you look at the chickens who are kept in cages, guess what? You're not getting the same nutritional benefit as take like pasture bird chicken. A free-range chicken.

Speaker 1 Well, it's not even free-range, it's regenerative.

Speaker 1 And once again, it's not just chickens by themselves. So if you look at pasture bird chicken, their brand is chicken, right?

Speaker 1 But they have cattle on the land because the cattle go out and they flash graze the grass and then the cattle move on to the next pasture and then they run the mobile chicken coops three days behind the cattle.

Speaker 1 And it's just like, well, why is it three days? Well, chickens love three day old manure. Well, why is that? Because the fly larvae in the chicken, in the cow manure is at its peak protein content.

Speaker 1 And so you look at it and here's this beautiful symbiotic beneficial relationship between the cow and the grass and even fly larvae and the chicken. And the chicken isn't just taking from the land.

Speaker 1 The cow isn't just taking from the land. When they flash graze the land in a regenerative fashion, they are giving back to the land.

Speaker 1 So you look at the relationship between the cow and the grass, and the cow is eating the grass, but in the same token, the cow is also feeding the grass at the same time.

Speaker 1 And so this is like when we talk about karma and we talk about that symbolic relationship, the energy that you put out is literally the energy that you're getting back.

Speaker 2 So that sounds a lot like some kind of law.

Speaker 2 And I would imagine that would

Speaker 2 sort of conduct that there would have to be some type of lawgiver because you're obviously conducting this environment that you're describing with intelligence.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 I can see like why people believe in God when they come to that argument, but this is my counter to that.

Speaker 1 Yeah, because I would say that there's it's it's not perfect. And I think, you know,

Speaker 1 you look at like the problem of evil.

Speaker 1 You know, people say, oh, well, if there's evil, there can't be this all-powerful God.

Speaker 1 And the question, like, when you were on Jordan Peterson, if you watch a lot of those guys' lives on TikTok and they

Speaker 1 talk about it and say, okay, well, here's this all-powerful God. He can pretty much create whatever he wants.
He's all loving.

Speaker 1 So he's created this whole ecological system where it's, you know, symbotic and it's giving and taking at the same time.

Speaker 1 But why couldn't he make it to where the deer giving their life to the mountain lion? And there is a symbotic relationship in that because deer populations have to be kept in check.

Speaker 1 Why couldn't God, if he was all-loving, why couldn't he make it to where the deer didn't have to die an excruciating death?

Speaker 1 So I can see some of where you can say, oh, there does seem to be an intelligent design, but if there is an intelligent design and you have this immense suffering, like when it comes to animals, then I don't think that you can conclude that this intelligent designer is also all-loving.

Speaker 2 Well, the animals spoke to people in the Garden of Eden, so I would imagine that that probably wasn't a component of animal behavior in the beginning. Like, I don't even know.

Speaker 2 It would be safe to assume that potentially everyone was vegan in the beginning.

Speaker 1 But then why would God make it that we ultimately derive more nutritional benefit from animal products?

Speaker 2 Well, that has to come down to how our genetics has changed over time, because if you read in Genesis 6, it actually talks about the angels that fell from heaven that mated with the humans and they also mated with animals.

Speaker 2 And so it talks about the blending of our genetics and the blending of corruption. I mean, this is the reason why God flooded the earth.

Speaker 1 But then what do you say about the archaeological record that actually doesn't show that change in genetics, say, 100,000 years ago?

Speaker 1 So did the garden, so then the question is, did the garden of Eden come before 100,000 years or is the Garden of Eden timeframe wrong? Because

Speaker 1 those are just my honest questions. Is that I do have the belief that the planet is older than 6,000 years.

Speaker 2 Yeah, so there's no archaeological evidence that sort of suggests that it's older, but there is people's assumption. And it's almost like it's a really good thing.

Speaker 2 It's like, what was Jesus's first miracle? He turned water into wine. What is wine?

Speaker 1 It's an old-aged drink, right?

Speaker 2 Supposedly. This is what we would assume, right? So like he made something new old instantly.
So it's almost like, why would you assume that God couldn't just make the earth old?

Speaker 1 But then my question is, why would he do that?

Speaker 1 Why would he throw curveballs at us?

Speaker 2 Well, because, you know, it's irrelevant of why. I mean, that's God's way.
You know what I mean?

Speaker 1 See, and that's my thing is that I just can't, like, you can say that, but then it goes back to, I would,

Speaker 1 the assertion would be that I think that you're arguing from what you already want to believe, and then you're willing to go back and bend things and twist them to fit that belief versus being an objective person and saying, okay, am I really okay with that?

Speaker 1 Does that really make sense? And one of the examples I'll bring up, because I know you said you want to talk about this, is the original creation stories.

Speaker 1 So my understanding of the archaeological record is that the Jewish religion was completely and totally different before 587 BC.

Speaker 2 The Jewish religion was very different. In fact, the Jewish religion today is more akin to witchcraft than it was prior.

Speaker 1 Wow. Yeah.
So

Speaker 1 what I'm saying is there was no mention of Adam and Eve. There was no mention of the Garden of Eden before 587 BC.
They came in contact with these stories.

Speaker 1 That's when King Nebuchadnezzar subjected the Israeli people into captivity and brought them into Babylon.

Speaker 1 And the Jewish scholars believed that it was Enlil Jehovah that gave power to King Nebuchadnezzar to conquer them and subject them.

Speaker 1 So they came in contact with the original stories where Inki the wise, the snake wrapped around the tree, was the true benefactor of mankind.

Speaker 1 And that, and he wanted mankind to be elevated to the status of a god.

Speaker 1 And so this is why he truthfully, in the original story, told Eve, partake of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and ye shall be as gods.

Speaker 1 And so they changed the story so that they made what you believe to be the devil to be the liar.

Speaker 1 And they made Enlil Jehovah, who was actually the liar in the original story, they made him to be the benefactor of mankind. So when these documents were discovered in 1855,

Speaker 1 it like sent a lot of, you know, turmoil through the Christian community.

Speaker 1 And there was a pastor and his response was, the devil put these tablets in the desert to test your faith and that's the kind of mental gymnastics where it's just to me if you are being objective and you're not emotionally attached to this religion for whatever reasons you just can't accept that and it's i can see some of the arguments that people make and i can say okay well i can kind of agree with that conclusion but then there's other things that i also know to be true and in order to make all of these things true the mental gymnastics that you have to jump through i'm just not okay with that and so what are the tablets called that that you're referring to you're talking about the announcements are you know yeah so they were building

Speaker 1 they were building a railroad through the desert in iraq in 1855 and it was very very flat and they came across this mound and they didn't know that if it was you know a dune or whatnot so they did testing to see if they had they could go over top of it or if they had to go through it and so it was soft so they said okay we have to go through it so they started excavating and they started finding all of these tablets and they said hey the tablets or what were they named archaeological what were they named um i don't know the original name of the tablets i read this through genesis of the grail kings that's what i was i'm telling you that was so this is this is like billy carson knowledge and billy carson talks a lot about this kind of stuff yeah yeah yeah yeah which a lot of those those tablets and those things were proven to be false in a lot of situations so the the tablets that that you're talking about they've they have since tested and determined that some of these things were false and some of these things were.

Speaker 1 False in what way they weren't as old at all.

Speaker 2 They weren't as old at all, and

Speaker 2 they were recent creations. They determined some of them.

Speaker 2 And so some of them were also determined that, and I think Billy Carson gets kind of some of that stuff actually got kind of exposed in some regard.

Speaker 1 What's the other guy, Stitchner or something? He was

Speaker 1 Weshuff was one of them. No, there's Stitchner or Stitchner or something.
Zachariah Stitchner. Yeah, he was one of the original ones.

Speaker 2 And he was also a fraud, and he was actually caught lying in several situations.

Speaker 2 So a lot of that stuff came from exaggerated, because he also assumed that he interpreted the tablets, not just gave the knowledge.

Speaker 2 So his interpretation of those tablets is completely bogus because no one knows.

Speaker 2 And it's actually, Zachariah Sitchin is actually one of the culprits who they determined discovered some of this stuff and created it.

Speaker 2 And it's actually more plausible that he was influenced by a demon, in my opinion. Way more plausible.

Speaker 1 But what would you say about this, though?

Speaker 1 And this is something that I have, and I have searched this far and wide.

Speaker 1 Christians believe that the Jewish people have had the Old Testament for 5,000 years, that it was given, you know, to Moses on Mount Sinai, on and on and on, and, you know, the original books of the Torah.

Speaker 1 Questionable, but yeah, some of it. So to me, it's if you look at the Old Testament, you have the Torah, which is the first five.

Speaker 2 The Old Testament was written by multiple people.

Speaker 2 In fact, the Old Testament wasn't even written by Moses.

Speaker 2 In fact, there's a lot of assumptions that we assume Moses wrote it, but he actually refers to himself as the most humble person in the world, which is kind of weird if you're a humble guy to refer to yourself.

Speaker 2 So it's pretty obvious he didn't write it.

Speaker 1 So this is my understanding of Jewish religion in the Old Testament.

Speaker 2 So the common understanding is probably not the correct one.

Speaker 1 Well, so I'm going to tell you my understanding

Speaker 1 if you agree or not. So before 587 BC, the Jewish people were originally they were polytheists.
They believed they believed and worshipped many different gods. And then they

Speaker 1 archaeological record.

Speaker 2 Okay, so we know that we've dug up. I don't know if you know this, but you can actually dig up.
They've dug up a lot of synagogues and we've dug them up.

Speaker 2 And under the floor, they have found synagogues that have the zodiac on them, which alludes to polytheistic worship, I would assume. But these synagogues were actually...

Speaker 2 There's a time biblically where

Speaker 2 the so-called Jew that we talk about was actually taken over. And it's biblical.
You can point to it in 2 Kings.

Speaker 2 It actually talks about they were taken over by a race of these polytheistic people that claimed to be Jews, but were not. And it actually shows it.

Speaker 2 And those are the ones that took over all the regions. And it says that they worshiped God, Yahweh, but they secretly worshiped their gods.
It actually says that in the Bible.

Speaker 1 So this is my understanding of the Bible. Yeah.
587 BC, Jewish people at that point, they worshipped one God, but they did believe and they acknowledged other gods.

Speaker 1 King Nebuchadnezzar conquered the Israeli people, made the majority of the Jewish people go to Babylon.

Speaker 1 This is where they came in contact with the Babylonian versions of what were ultimately Sumerian creation stories, Adam and Eve, Noah, the flood, all of those kinds of things.

Speaker 1 It was their belief that Enlil Jehovah had given power to King Nebuchadnezzar to conquer them.

Speaker 1 So it was their intention to rewrite these stories so that Enlil Jehovah would be seen as the one true God and that the Jewish people would only worship Enlil Jehovah, the one true God.

Speaker 1 The Persian Empire came in, I think it was Xerxes I,

Speaker 1 came in and conquered Babylon and allowed the Jewish people to go back to Israel.

Speaker 1 And so, this is what is, I believe, referred to as the part of the Old Testament, it's like the second book of prophets, where it talks about the Jewish people have strayed from the one, you know, true religion and whatnot.

Speaker 1 And so, if you understand the historical context, it makes perfect sense why they're saying this.

Speaker 1 And the reason why they're saying this is because you had an entire generation of Jews that were raised in Babylon under the new Jewish religion, and they were released and they were able to go back to Israel.

Speaker 1 Now, I think it was about 10% of the population was actually able to stay in Israel. So these were the original Jews who had the original Jewish religion.

Speaker 1 And you had these people coming back from Babylon who were the Babylonian Jewish people, and they had this new religion.

Speaker 1 And they were sitting there looking at the Babylonian Jews going, what the fuck are you talking about? That's a made-up religion that you guys had in Babylon.

Speaker 1 This is actually the original Jewish religion.

Speaker 1 So a lot of the Babylonian Jews started to convert to the original Jewish religion because they thought that it was more authentic and they believed what they were saying, that their Jewish religion was corrupted by the Babylonian stories in the original, in the original version.

Speaker 1 So this is why you have those prophets, then they were prophets of the Babylonian Jewish religion saying that the Jewish people had strayed from the one true God.

Speaker 1 But you go back to the historical context and the archaeological record, and it supports the fact that before the Jewish people went to Babylon, the Jewish religion was completely and totally different from what we know of it.

Speaker 1 So that's the reason why I don't think that it's intellectually honest, because the belief is that, oh, we've believed in one true God and Lil Jehovah for 5,000 years.

Speaker 1 And even if Stitchin and some of their interpretations don't turn out to be exactly accurate, I can grant that to me, it still doesn't negate the fact that the archaeological record to me is very, very clear that the Jewish religion was completely and totally different from the Babylonian version.

Speaker 1 And that when you even go back and you start to read the second,

Speaker 1 there's a group of the Old Testaments called the Second Book of Prophets, and it's literally

Speaker 1 solely the prophets when they were coming back from Babylon and dealing with that internal conflict in the Jewish religion.

Speaker 2 So there's so much

Speaker 2 like wrong I would not agree with, but I'll tell you this. This is really simple.

Speaker 1 Like what does the word hovah mean in Judaism? I don't know.

Speaker 2 Hovah means disaster, ruin, or destruction. Okay.
So what does Jah mean? You know what Jah means, right? Jah.

Speaker 2 God.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 2 So Jehovah

Speaker 2 is a Jewish term

Speaker 2 that means

Speaker 2 God of destruction.

Speaker 2 So Enlil Jehovah, the one you're you're mentioning, I believe that was a term that Zacharias Sitchin invented, which was based off of his incomplete knowledge of Hebrewic understanding. Okay.

Speaker 2 Because the Judaism of the day, actually, the Christians went to the Jews and said, hey, how do you pronounce the name Yahweh? Like, how do you pronounce that name? Okay.

Speaker 2 And the Jews said, oh, that name, the name that we don't say because it's too holy, the name that we don't want to say.

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah, it's Jehovah.

Speaker 2 It's Jehovah. Okay.

Speaker 2 And they told the Christians ignorantly it's jehovah but jehovah witness means witness god's destruction okay so like there was a lot of miss and you can just look up hova definition in hebrew h-o-v-a yeah hovah yeah look it up because like it'll tell you right now you'll say destruction and jah is obviously god so jehovah nisi jehovah jireh this is god destroy peace god destroy the and it's it's a terminology that's literally obviously akin from witchcraft.

Speaker 2 And so like, this is all, this is all, there's a lot of stuff connected to that.

Speaker 1 What about Yahweh's girlfriend then?

Speaker 2 You know, there is no girlfriend that I've been aware of.

Speaker 1 It's very clear in the archaeological record when they found Jewish homes, synagogues, things of that nature, even before it was Jehovah, when it was Yahweh.

Speaker 1 I forget the name of, you know, they called it like Yahweh's mistress, but very, very, very common before 587 BC

Speaker 1 to find the little female figurine next to Yahweh. And the understanding is that it was Yahweh's.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that wasn't next to. So here, I'll give you a different perspective.
Let me give you a different sort of analysis, like you were sharing with me. So in the beginning,

Speaker 2 Judaism is not what it is today. Judaism today is very much closer to witchcraft and the occult, in fact.
And it changed prior to Jesus coming.

Speaker 2 In fact, Jesus actually said to the Jews, he said, you're of your father the devil. And he said that to them.

Speaker 2 So, you know, it's kind of like, well, Jesus was making a statement here related to, he said, you're not of your God, of, of Yahweh, you're not of God, or you would have recognized me.

Speaker 2 He said, you're of your father, the devil. And

Speaker 2 so it also says this in Revelation. It says that the Jews that claim to be Jews, but are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
It actually says that in Revelation 2.9 and Revelation 3.9. It's twice.

Speaker 2 It's referencing this. But there's multiple contexts.
And if you understand witchcraft and how that kind of formed, Judaism was sort of the head of witchcraft, and it still is to this day.

Speaker 2 So there's a lot of misconceptions and misdirections and distortions.

Speaker 2 And this is why they hated Jesus, actually, because they didn't want Jesus coming to speak the truth, which is love, which is acceptance. You know, Jesus said, I have sheep that are not of this fold.

Speaker 2 What is sheep that are not of this fold? Isn't like

Speaker 2 Jesus is the only way, right? That's what they tell you, right?

Speaker 2 So it's like, but what are the sheep that are not of this fold that Jesus was talking about if it wasn't something more deep, more spiritually

Speaker 2 within us? Okay. And so like Jesus came to do away with religion.

Speaker 2 And the reality is there were other gods. So a lot of

Speaker 2 what you're talking about was true. Like Inki was a god.
He was a real god, actually.

Speaker 2 But he was.

Speaker 1 Whoa, so you said he was a real god?

Speaker 1 So you definitely don't have a traditional.

Speaker 1 Well, no,

Speaker 2 I have a very, very biblical sounded belief. Okay.

Speaker 2 Because God actually says our um he says multiple times he says he stands amongst the midst of the gods in the bible so it's like well he's the elohim of elohims he's elohim of elohim so there's other elohims and it mentions it multiple times in the bible but now he is the the god of gods okay so you believe in inky yeah yeah he was so so then i i guess my question is

Speaker 1 There's the Jewish version of the Garden of Eden.

Speaker 2 Distortion.

Speaker 1 Yeah, potentially. And then there's the Sumerian version.

Speaker 2 Even more distortion. And so the reason why

Speaker 1 I, someone who is objective, who has no emotional connection to religion, so I'm not willing to do mental gymnastics. How do I look at what I believe to be very sound archaeological?

Speaker 2 Simple.

Speaker 2 We have one source for the inky stuff that you're talking about, translated by one man who was also a fraud, and you can just look at his moral ethics but then where's your interpretation to show me that it's more valid every historical context in fact well explain it to you yeah that's right i'm asking yeah i'm honestly asking for explanation because my understanding like i dive deep in this is that i don't see that interpretation it's very simple when you start to read it i mean like genesis six it says that the angels came down and slept with women and they bore children and those children were called great men and they basically took over the world okay but you're you're arguing you're arguing after the fact.

Speaker 1 So in order for me to believe that and accept that interpretation, it's like I need arguments. I will give you a question.

Speaker 2 So I'm just giving you the narrative to tell you where it comes from, and then I'll explain why that's the correct direction. And so we call them the Anunnaki, right?

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 2 Do you know the name for the angels? They're called the Anakum.

Speaker 2 Anunnaki, Anukum. Anunnaki, Anakum.
Isn't there an interesting similarity in this word?

Speaker 2 So, and if we look actually into Egypt, there's actually these giant tombs and they're called the seraphim coffins. You know about the seraphim coffins? Massive tombs.

Speaker 2 A brick so big, we can't move them in spaces that are so tight, we don't know how they got them there.

Speaker 2 We have tried to look inside one that was cracked just a little bit, so we assume there may be something in it. We had to blow it up with dynamite just to get into the seraphim coffins.

Speaker 2 In the Bible, there's angels, anacum and seraphim.

Speaker 2 This is what they're called. So there was obviously, why is the word seraphim being reiterated and these giant coffins?

Speaker 2 So we've got a lot of these gods that we historically look at that are kind of lining up with like biblical words and some weird word.

Speaker 2 And it almost makes you wonder, was Judaism hybridizing and stealing little beats and pieces of other religions and putting it together? It kind of makes you think maybe that's what was happening.

Speaker 2 And that's the conclusion you've come to.

Speaker 1 Of course. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And so this is where, this is the conclusion. where you can find the truth and the understanding of it.

Speaker 2 So in Genesis 6, you have to understand this principle because there was angels that mated with humans and they bore children. Hercules, Achilles, Zeus was one of them.
So yes, I believe in Zeus.

Speaker 2 He is 100% was a real entity. And in fact, he continues to embody people to this day.
In fact, more recently, the last person I knew he was in, he was in Obama. His spirit continued on.

Speaker 2 And Obama spoke from the temple of Zeus. And it's kind of weird that there's a lot of alignments.
I mean, George Washington was an an embodiment of Zeus.

Speaker 2 And in fact, you can look up all the historical statues of George Washington. It is identical to this, to the preludes to Zeus.

Speaker 2 And like you, you realize that, wait, wait a second, George Washington's in the same pose. The statue of George Washington is in the same pose as the statue of Zeus.

Speaker 1 Tons of stuff.

Speaker 2 And so even the apotheosis of George Washington, do you know what that one is? The rounded rotenda part? He's literally Zeus with his two wives next to him and all the wives around him.

Speaker 2 And then he's got Neptune here and Hermes above him. And you're like, well, if Neptune, Hermes, and Kratos and all these other gods are, what would that make George Washington?

Speaker 2 George Washington, Zeus. Okay.
So, and the thing is, like, this is just anecdotal in some regard, but, but the people that are in power believe in this stuff.

Speaker 2 And I'm just explaining to you that it still is the faith that these people believe. Okay.

Speaker 2 So when we go back into time, you understand that these angels had children and these children were giants and they claimed to be gods and they took over the world and they said that they were gods.

Speaker 2 And the reason reason why God flooded the earth, God God,

Speaker 2 Yahweh God, flooded the earth was to destroy their destruction that they were creating in society and our humanity. And so it says that Noah was pure in generations.
It means genetically pure.

Speaker 2 It means he was the only human left and his descendants. Okay? So when God flooded the earth, he was wiping away this angelic perversion.
of these gods. And these gods were the Greek gods.
They said

Speaker 2 they were Hades and and Zeus and Kratos. And when God wiped them out, it says in the book of Enoch, it talks about this specifically.

Speaker 2 It says that they were not fully flesh and they were not fully human. And it says that when their bodies die, their spirits remain on the earth and were referred to as evil spirits.

Speaker 2 And these spirits continued on and repossessed into individuals to try to influence the world again. And so this has been the battle.

Speaker 2 So when you're looking at the old gods like Enki and all them, they were real. They were real.
They were pre-flood.

Speaker 2 And that's why all their temples are all destroyed, also show water damage because they were destroyed in a flood. That's why they all have that.

Speaker 1 I'm still not getting to the archaeological support for your interpretation. That's what I'm specifically asking for.
Okay, so

Speaker 2 all of the archaeological support points to this. Now, the reason why is because there is a narrative where these gods said, oh, I am the god of this.

Speaker 2 I'm the god of that, and I'm strong, and I've done this. And you can read their archaeological things, right?

Speaker 2 But if you just simply look at the biblical narrative of what these angels that were claiming to be gods were, there is gods that taught men metallurgy.

Speaker 2 There was angels that taught men metallurgy in the book of Enoch, and it describes all of this. And you're like, well, there's a god of war.
There's an angel of war.

Speaker 1 And you're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a second.

Speaker 2 Why is this old book of Enoch, which was found in the Dead Sea Scrolls, which is very, very valid and old? Why is this eerily lining up with all the other gods that we see throughout history?

Speaker 2 Not just, and they're repeating. You know, the Greek gods are the same as the Roman gods.
You know that, right? Okay. So, and they're the same as the Egyptian gods in some variation.
Okay.

Speaker 2 And you're like, wait, they're the same characters, the same entities throughout time. It's like, but their names are shifting a little bit.

Speaker 1 But, and then you have this biblical narrative that's going to be a point of view.

Speaker 1 The point, though, is that you're going with an interpretation that to me comes after what we know from the archaeological record to be the original interpretation.

Speaker 1 So I'm telling you my beliefs based upon specific archaeological records. Sure, sure.
And I feel like you're arguing after the fact and just going after the interpretation.

Speaker 1 And I don't feel that your rendition of the interpretation that you're putting out there, you're trying to say that that interpretation points to archaeological evidence.

Speaker 1 And I'm just asking you honestly for it. Like, I don't see it.
My interpretation is that it's kind of like this, right?

Speaker 1 So let's say that you meet me, you've known me for six months, and I'm telling you all these stories about these trips that I've been on, women I've dated, cars that I've had, et cetera, et cetera, on and on and on, telling you all these stories, right?

Speaker 1 And one day I'm like, hey, you know, we're supposed to meet, you know, go out to dinner, whatever. And I say, hey, I'm actually going to be a little late.

Speaker 1 My roommate, Sean, is going to let you in, you know, just hang out with him for about an hour, right?

Speaker 1 So you go over to my house and you start talking to Sean and Sean starts telling you the exact same stories, you know, little differences, but the exact same stories.

Speaker 1 Like, oh, I had a, you know, a rare Corvette. It wasn't, you know, yellow.
It was red.

Speaker 1 And you're just sitting there and you're like, damn, these stories are fucking similar, but I know that they can't both be true. I know that they live together.
So

Speaker 1 I'm concluding that these stories happened to one person and the other person liked these stories and adopted them as their own.

Speaker 1 And now you're thinking like, well, damn, who's telling the truth and who's the liar? I got you. And so Sean pulls out the photo book and starts showing actual pictures of these stories.

Speaker 1 So he has the actual proof. So it's like, you know, that we lived in close contact.
You know, these are great stories. I want to sound cool, but he has the actual proof.

Speaker 1 So my interpretation of the archaeological record is that we can look at the Jewish people. We can see what their religion was before.
We can see the specific event. It was very traumatic.

Speaker 1 King Nebuchadnezzar conquered them. They believed that it was, you know, Yahweh and whatever name you want to give it.
They believed that it was that God that gave power to King Nebuchadnezzar.

Speaker 1 And the archaeological record to me says that they didn't have these stories of Adam and Eve. They didn't have these stories of the flood.
They did.

Speaker 2 Well, how would we know that? We don't know that they didn't have those stories. There's no way to determine that.

Speaker 2 What you're doing is you're just assuming because this story here is similar that it couldn't have been.

Speaker 1 archaeology. I will grant it, it is not a perfect science.
Yeah, it's not a photo album. It is not a perfect science.

Speaker 1 However, I do feel that when you look at archaeological dating methods, that they are somewhat sound and reasonably credible.

Speaker 1 Questionable. No, no, no, no, no,

Speaker 1 I get that, but

Speaker 1 my point there is that when you're objective and you have no emotional connection to it, then you're willing to admit, okay, you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 Maybe they're not perfect, but they do have some reasonableness to them.

Speaker 1 And from my perspective, I only see the people that have the emotional attachment to religion that are more willing to criticize these archaeological methods.

Speaker 1 Because if the archaeological methods are sound, then the conclusions that they support just completely and totally dismantle their world belief.

Speaker 2 I don't think completely and totally.

Speaker 1 Well, I mean, if archaeological records are sound, the archaeological record, in my opinion, supports the analogy that I just gave you with Sean that the Jewish religion, that we know of it, was invented after 587 B.C.

Speaker 2 Yeah, but the determining factor of what you're believing,

Speaker 2 whether it's sound or not, I don't think we can determine that that's actually the preface. You see what I'm saying? Like, I don't think that that's actually what happened.

Speaker 2 I think we're reading, we're determining

Speaker 1 because of something.

Speaker 2 Like, you can't dig in the dirt and figure out what people believed. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, you can't, just because we found tablets doesn't mean that that's everything that is there.

Speaker 1 So where does the original story, though, about the,

Speaker 1 let me tell you something. So being in Sunday school, right? And this is part of the reason why I told you, I was eight years old reading the Old Testament and my father was a pastor.

Speaker 1 It was very, very, you know, a lot of social pressure to believe.

Speaker 1 And it was the Old Testament in particular where I would read that and I would just think, this is hocus, pocus, bullshit at eight years old. Like you can't choose to be that person.

Speaker 1 That was just my logical mind.

Speaker 1 And I would shut the Bible and I'd rock back and forth and go, no, you believe, you believe, you believe, you believe, believe, believe, because there was just so much much social pressure to believe.

Speaker 1 And I remember being in Sunday school in numerous different churches around the country because we moved around all the fucking time.

Speaker 1 And every little kid seemed to always have an issue with one part in the Old Testament where it said that, where it said that Adam and Eve were the first humans and that they had kids.

Speaker 1 And then all of a sudden, their kids went out and married people. And I can't tell you how many Sunday school classes I was in, people raising their hands saying, did God create other people?

Speaker 1 Like, how did that make sense? And in that interpretation, it doesn't make sense. The apologetics, the mental gymnastics, you have to jump through to come up with a reasonable conclusion.

Speaker 1 So, when I read Genesis of the Grail Kings and it said that Adam and Eve weren't the first Homo sapiens, they were the first Homo sapiens sapiens, meaning the first Homo sapiens to have the blood of the gods infused with them because Inki wanted mankind to be elevated to the status of a god.

Speaker 1 So, that's why he infused the blood with them. Then it makes sense of, oh, this is how their children went out and married other people.

Speaker 1 So, even not even on archaeological record, just on the mere basis of just fewer mental gymnastics, Occam's razor, the most simple explanation wins, this version, to me, from a logical standpoint, it just supports it that this was the original version.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 I think that the Bible doesn't have everything written down in it. And I don't think that there's every answer that you're going to find in it.

Speaker 2 I think that it's not, you know, ultimately the biblical text that we have isn't, you know, it's not just, it's a story. It's like telling you where we came from and how we got here, right?

Speaker 2 And so there's a narrative, and there, but the narrative ultimately leads to Jesus. And Jesus is the example of

Speaker 2 how we were meant to live our life. Okay.
And so I think the Bible, in a sense, is a historical,

Speaker 2 poignant thing to describe us to this point.

Speaker 2 So you're not going to find every answer.

Speaker 1 I think Jesus was talking about quantum mechanics and quantum physics and the quantum initiative. So in some of that, you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 I can believe, I can believe, like in the actual like words of Jesus per se, I think there was a lot of credibility to that. It's

Speaker 1 when I talk about like my dark night of the soul experience, I don't know if you've ever heard about that, but it's, you know, a dark night of the soul is when you are just laid fucking bare.

Speaker 1 It's worse than rock bottom. It's complete and total annihilation.
I went through a dark night of the soul experience sitting in a prison cell for the second time.

Speaker 1 So you believe in having a soul then? Well, I don't. Well,

Speaker 1 it's just an expression. I don't necessarily believe in like, is it a soul? Is it a spirit? I mean, if you look at E equals M seed squared, I mean, it's literally telling you energy.

Speaker 1 There's a relationship between energy, something that's immaterial and something that is material.

Speaker 1 So once again, rather than looking at it in a one-way street, there is this symbolic relationship where something that is material can influence something that's immaterial and vice versa.

Speaker 1 What that gap is, I don't fucking know. And I don't think we're ever going to know.
And I'm okay with that.

Speaker 1 Now, I fucking lost my point as far as what truth, Dark Night of the Soul experience. Oh, so Dark Night of the Soul.
So I went through that sitting in a prison cell.

Speaker 1 cell um i made millions of dollars selling weed i was on bail started a multi-million dollar meal prep company i had everything going for me fucking completely and totally lost it and that's when i was forced to confront the reality of myself forced to confront how money was tied to my identity because i told you my childhood leaving west texas going to new jersey on and on and on and when you're left with nothing and the only thing you have is your choice i believe that you have to become a creator.

Speaker 1 You have to become that uncaused cause. And so I think that people make the mistake in life where they're comfortable.

Speaker 2 That's where most people find Jesus usually.

Speaker 1 Well, they say it. Well, and that, and that to me is when you go back to the whole like, you know, the words of Jesus per se, it's this whole like quantum enigma.

Speaker 1 And I think that people put their wrong interpretation on what Jesus was saying when he's saying, like, the father is in me, I'm in the father.

Speaker 1 He's really talking about this whole symbolic relationship per se.

Speaker 1 And so I think that in that moment of the dark night of the soul, that you have to become this uncaused cause and you have to say, there might not be an external reason to love myself and respect myself, but I'm going to do so solely because I choose to do so.

Speaker 1 And once you build an identity based upon that choice of you being that uncaused cause and to love and respect yourself, the identity that you create is truly yours.

Speaker 1 And it's at a point where you stop being a creation, meaning you're letting everything from the external world influence you.

Speaker 1 And you start being a creator, meaning you're taking this active role in your life, in your existence. So if you want to call that Jesus and put

Speaker 1 a name on it, knock yourself out. You know what I mean? Put the name on it.
But that is something,

Speaker 1 conclusion and understanding that I have come to independently of believing in Jesus, of believing in the Bible.

Speaker 2 This is very fascinating because we're on the very opposite side of the spectrum in this regard.

Speaker 2 Like, because most Christians go through your life experience and they come out and they say, I found Jesus. I found God.
And they come out through going through drugs and addiction and all that.

Speaker 2 And they come out. And I've never done a drug in my life.
I've never drank a drop of alcohol. I've never smoked a cigarette.

Speaker 2 I've never done these things. I was, I was lived a worldly lifestyle.
I was polyamorous for a long time. I had like multiple girlfriends for like seven years.

Speaker 2 But so I had other parts of my life that was worldly. But like I didn't come to Jesus because my life was terrible.
My life was great. bro.
Like I was like a king.

Speaker 2 Like what guy would give up having multiple girlfriends and go to the Lord?

Speaker 2 What kind of person would just be like, hey, like, the only reason why I have come to the Lord and the understanding is because I saw something that I cannot describe in any facet of my explanation or experience of life.

Speaker 2 I witnessed the power of God heal one of my girlfriends, my girlfriend at the time.

Speaker 2 I witnessed her get healed. in a way that is undeniably profound.
Like, I saw a dude pray for her, and afterwards, depression gone, anxiety gone, body spasms gone.

Speaker 2 She would get motion sickness looking at her phone when we would be driving. She couldn't even look at her phone.
They didn't even pray about that. Gone.
I witnessed the power of God.

Speaker 2 So I'm not like those little Christians that don't know how to heal people or cast out demons. That's why I do what I do.

Speaker 2 I'm not those people that are like trying to justify their means, like to be like, oh, I believe in God because my world's falling apart.

Speaker 2 Like, bro, I believe in God because I walk in the authority of Christ. Like, I cast demons out.

Speaker 1 So,

Speaker 1 what was it, though, with that experience? Like, I'm not denying what you witnessed. Okay.
I can even grant you that I can say, okay, fine, you witnessed that.

Speaker 1 My

Speaker 1 assertion would be that there is something that we don't understand.

Speaker 1 We can be powerful. We can tap into something that's immaterial, whatever the hell you want to call it.
I believe that everybody has a sixth sense. I believe it's ultimately like

Speaker 1 sensing.

Speaker 1 Well, I mean, ultimately, what is a spirit? It's just energy. Like, I love the tuning fork example.
Do you know that one? Yeah.

Speaker 1 It's like I can meet people and it's like I can feel their energy right away. So

Speaker 2 you're feeling their spirit is what you're actually feeling.

Speaker 1 If you want to call it spirit, that's fine. I call it energy, life-giving force, whatever you want to call it.

Speaker 1 But my thing with that is like you witnessed something, but then it was like, therefore, there is a God, therefore, Christianity is his religion.

Speaker 1 So, so that's that's the bridge that I just, you know what I mean, that I'm just asking for further clarification on.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 when I,

Speaker 2 you know, I read the Bible and I studied demonology, but I studied it like it was a hobby. I wasn't actually a Christian.
I thought it was very fascinating. I studied ancient history.

Speaker 2 That's why I know about the gods and I know about Inki and I know about all the gods and Zeus and Kratos and I studied ancient religion stuff. But I studied it like a hobby again.

Speaker 2 So it was never made real to me until I witnessed what the Lord did in my ex-girlfriend's life. till I witnessed, like, she thought she was bipolar.

Speaker 2 She thought she had, like, issues, like, like manic depression or something. And, like, all these things.

Speaker 1 And it's because that person did that in the name of Jesus. So that was your, that's how you were led to the conclusion? This, yeah.

Speaker 2 This, no, it's more than that.

Speaker 1 Okay. I'll just tell you what happened to me, actually.

Speaker 2 I'll just tell you my testimony. This is what happened.

Speaker 2 Like, I, I literally was like, dude, she started reading some of the occult stuff, the books that I had, and started looking at conspiracy theories and was like, and I read it and it never did anything to me demons i've learned don't affect everyone the same never did anything to me i can read some witchcraft books or whatever and it never affected me not not recommending you do this the bad idea because she did that and uh something started to affect her and she started to have like she couldn't sleep i've never seen her sleep actually the whole night through I had never seen all kinds of issues that she had and it started to get like worse.

Speaker 2 She started to like have body spasms that she couldn't control that most people would have been like, maybe that's like a onset of a seizure or something, or I don't know, or maybe let's go to a medical diagnosis.

Speaker 2 Let's go, maybe you need medicine. But I just didn't quite feel in my spirit that medicine was the solution because I had known her for like four years at this point or whatever.

Speaker 2 And I'm like, this ain't, this ain't nothing I've ever seen in you before. This is not right.
So I was like, okay, like, I don't know what this is, but it's unusual.

Speaker 2 And I was like, maybe you got like a demon. Like, I didn't know what, like, I mean, like, cause I, to me, the stories of the Bible were fairy tales.
And that's how I felt of it.

Speaker 1 And so I thought, okay, well, maybe you you got a demon.

Speaker 2 I don't know. Like, let's call some churches.
I called a few churches and I was like, hey, do you cast demons out? And they're like, we don't cast demons out.

Speaker 1 That's, that's old.

Speaker 2 Or maybe you should call a Catholic church. I'm like, what? I'm like, what do you mean you don't cast demons out? I don't even go to church and I know your Bible better than you.
I'm like,

Speaker 2 like, I was like, Mark 16, 17 says, these signs will follow those who believe. In my name, they will drive out demons.
It says, why aren't you driving out demons, fool? Like, what do you, like, what?

Speaker 2 So I chewed on a few pastors. They didn't answer me.
Then I just went home and I prayed and I said, Lord, help. That's all I prayed.

Speaker 2 that's all i prayed and the very next day i i wake up and i'm sitting at my computer and i do design and marketing stuff and all of a sudden i hear take down your art and i had art of naked girls all over my walls and my and my ex-girlfriends and people that i painted that were their faces all over my walls it was really crazy and i hear take down your art and i'm like that's weird and then all of a sudden i'm like ignore it i hear it again and then i'm like the heck was that and it was almost spoken in my head but it was in my in my mind but it was almost audible and then i'm like okay weird so then I, I, all of a sudden, I hear, read my Ten Commandments.

Speaker 2 And I'm like,

Speaker 2 I know the Ten Commandments. Like, I know this.
Like, I read the second commandment, bro. It says, make no image in the form of anything in heaven above and earth beneath it and the waters below.

Speaker 2 Period. Then it says, do not bow down and worship those things, those images.
But that's actually more like the 11 commandments because they skip one. And it just says, don't make an image

Speaker 2 of any kind. And all of a sudden, the understanding of worship hits me.

Speaker 1 Worship, worship, worth ship.

Speaker 2 It's worth something to you. And I look up at the painting of my, of my girlfriends and I realize, oh my gosh, nobody's ever going to buy these paintings.

Speaker 2 They're just my girlfriends, but they're worth something to me. I worship them as they're on my wall.
I've never had that understanding of what worship was before.

Speaker 1 And I'm like, that's so weird.

Speaker 2 So I'm like, okay. And so I'm like, so you want me to take it down? So I take it all down.
And I'm just like sitting in my living room, take it all down.

Speaker 2 And I'm like, okay, God, what am I supposed to do with it? Put it in my office.

Speaker 2 And all of a sudden, I look up and I have a statue collection of amiibos because I played Smash Brothers, have every Nintendo action figure or whatever. And I hear them too.

Speaker 1 I'm like, what the heck?

Speaker 2 So I'm like, okay, so I just scoop them in a box. I'm like, what am I supposed to do with this? And all of a sudden, a verse, Deuteronomy 24 or something, I don't know what it was, pops into my head.

Speaker 2 I open it. It says, none of the condemned things are to be found in your hands.
And I'm like,

Speaker 1 whoa.

Speaker 2 I'm like, okay, this is freaking me out. Like at this point.
And I'm like, okay, God of the universe, I don't know who's talking to me. Like, what am I supposed to do with this?

Speaker 2 And I look over and I have a flamethrower. And I'm like, do you want me to burn it? And then all of a sudden, like, Jerry, like, it was like Leviticus something pops into my head.

Speaker 2 And I look over and I read the verse, Leviticus, and it says, burn the offering. And I'm like,

Speaker 1 what the heck?

Speaker 2 I'm like, okay, this is freaking me out, right? So I call my girlfriend. I'm like, hey, I know I've been, I prayed help for your situation.
The weirdest thing is happening to me right now.

Speaker 2 I'm hearing Bible verses in my head telling me to burn my art. Like, I don't even know what this means.
I'm like, how am I, what am I supposed to do? And so, like, she's like, well, why would God?

Speaker 2 And he said, he told me to burn my video game stuff too, I think. And she's like, why your video game stuff? I'm like, I don't know.

Speaker 2 When I was like 15, the last time I heard a voice like this, I thought I heard God tell me to get rid of my video game stuff. And I said, no, God, I'd rather have video games than you.

Speaker 2 When I was like 15, bro, as I'm on the phone with her, I hear this voice, verse pop into my head. Jeremiah 5, 7.
And I'm like, whoa. I'm like, she's like, what? I'm like, it just did it again.

Speaker 2 And she's like what does it say and I'm like Jeremiah 57 I don't know what Jeremiah 5 7 is and she's like well look it up I look it up bro I read why should I forgive you your children have sworn by gods that are not gods I literally just got done saying no God I'd rather have you this is the last time I've heard this experience in my life and then instantly I'm like shook I'm like I gotta go like just hang out I'm like okay God if you're really speaking to me give me a very clear verse that you want me to burn my stuff

Speaker 2 Genesis whatever pops into my head I open it it says he then burnt the offering I'm like are you freaking kidding me I'm like okay this is plastic I'm like what am I supposed to do burn it like one by one and then my thumb bumps over to the next verse on my phone and it says he handed the offering piece by piece I'm like okay so like I'm just like I jump in my car I throw all my art and my video game stuff in a trash bag and I jump in my car start driving bro and the Lord directs me and I'm like I don't know where I'm going and all of a sudden I hear left and I was going to turn right into my parents' backyard to burn it.

Speaker 1 And I just go left. And I turn.

Speaker 2 I'm going down the pathway. I don't know where I'm going.
All of a sudden, I hear there. And it's spoken to me in my spirit.

Speaker 2 It's not like clear words, but it's like this super powerful unctioning in my heart. And this is what God, this is how God speaks.

Speaker 2 And I turn, I park, I get out, and there's like a gate in this housing development. And it's like in there.

Speaker 2 And I open the gate, and it's like a homeless person set up a perfect little spot to burn something. I'm totally shocked.

Speaker 1 I'm like, this can't be real.

Speaker 2 It's like, it's so insane. So I'm like, okay, like, and so I just start burning all my video game stuff, bro, thousands of dollars of video game collection stuff.
And then my art, I start burning it.

Speaker 2 And then like, all of a sudden I hear, put it out after I burn a bunch of it. And I'm like, I didn't think to put it out.
So I grab some wet drywall, stomp it out.

Speaker 2 And then I like grab, and I hear the mess, grab the remainder, put it in the trash bag, you brought it in, and throw it away. So I do that.
I grab it, throw it in the trash bag, walk out the gate.

Speaker 2 As soon as I walk out the gate, some dude with a flashlight, cop lights come up behind me, comes out with his flashlight. And I'm like, oh, great.
No, officer, God told me to start this fire.

Speaker 2 It's probably not the best answer to give, to give this guy. So I'm like, all right.
So he's like,

Speaker 1 yeah, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 So I'm like, so I open the car, I just put it there, shut the door, and I'm like, whatever. And he comes over and he's like, he's like, hey, you live around here?

Speaker 2 I'm like, no, I'm in the middle of nowhere, bro. And he's like, you wait for somebody? I'm like, I don't know, kind of.
And then all of a sudden, he's like, he walks to the gate.

Speaker 2 And as soon as he walks to the gate, he turns, bro. And as soon as he turns, down pours rain on the spot that I was just burning.
The rain hits the ground so hard. It looks like mist.

Speaker 2 the smoke of the fire was still there looks like mist coming up from the ground i'm totally like in shock watching this happen so i'm like okay

Speaker 2 god is real like god god is real apparently this is a fairy tales right like this is my my conclusion and i'm just standing in complete utter shock the dude just turns around and mind you it's not a cop it's a security guard for a company that i installed the stickers on the car that day And I'm like, oh, you're so-and-so.

Speaker 2 I know your boss so-and-so. Like, he was like, oh, you know, so I'm like, yeah.
And he's like, like, oh, carry on. And he gets the car and leaves.
I'm completely shocked.

Speaker 2 I go home and I'm like, listen, other girlfriend, I ain't talking to you. We need to cut things off.
I was like, girlfriend, like, we are not sleeping together.

Speaker 2 I was like, we are not, we got to be righteous. I don't know what's happening.
I don't know what just happened, bro. God made it rain on me.
She's just like, what? Bro, I go to sleep.

Speaker 2 I wake up the next day. This old man walks into my building and I'm like, hey, what's up, old man? I'm working with another client.
He's like, he's like, hey, I'm here. I'm like, you have a business?

Speaker 2 No. Do you need stickers? No.
Do you need business? Do you need design? No. And I'm like, what are you? And then finally, I pull him aside.

Speaker 2 I'm like, listen, guy, I'm about to kick you out of my building. You're freaking me out.
Some old random dude walk into my building.

Speaker 2 You don't have a business. You don't like what do you do? And the guy tells me, this is so insane.
He literally tells me, I do miracles.

Speaker 2 And he goes, and I teach people how to cast out demons and how to heal people. And he goes, and I'm pretty sure God told me to come here today.
Like the most.

Speaker 2 Insanely like shocking experience. I'm like, I'm like, what? Dude, praise for my girlfriend.
I've never seen anything like that. And I had been to churches.

Speaker 2 I grew up in like, I didn't grow up in the church, but I started going to churches. Like, bro, I've seen people get healed in church and then they come back and they're broken again.

Speaker 2 You know, like all that fake stuff that you see. And I'd seen the people get knocked over and I was like, that's hypnosis.
Bro, when that dude prayed, like, I have never seen a change like that ever.

Speaker 2 Like, bro, medical things gone, behavior is gone, depression gone, like, sadness gone. She slept the whole night.
I had never seen that before. Like, bro, that sh that, that

Speaker 2 changed my perspective. And so I said, Lord, I don't know what this is, but I need to know.
I asked the dude to train me, to teach me, and he told me no. He said, your heart is wrong.

Speaker 2 And then the Lord, through crazy circumstances, ended up having me be trained by somebody else. And he eventually trained me.
And now this is what I do, bro. I cast out demons and heal people.

Speaker 2 Bro, this is not, it's not a joke. It's not like the fake

Speaker 1 Christianity that so many people follow. What do you say, though? And I don't want to discount your experience and discredit it.

Speaker 1 And I'm not trying to tell you that I don't think that you really witnessed those things. I firmly believe that you have a belief that you witness those things.

Speaker 1 I mean, you're being brought to tears right now. So I don't want to ask this question and appear that I've just brushed your experience under the table and not acknowledging it.

Speaker 1 So I just want to say I acknowledge it. Thank you for sharing that.
I understand it was a very powerful and moving experience.

Speaker 1 My contention, though, is that I have seen people from other religions with other belief systems describe the same kind of miraculous experiences, brought the tears.

Speaker 1 I mean, literally like right in front of me, like what you just did. And that's why they believe in their spiritual system or their religion or whatever it is.

Speaker 1 So if it was just people from Christianity that were entitled and experiencing what you just described, then that would, you know what I mean, move me.

Speaker 1 And it would say, okay, you know, maybe there is something here with Christianity because the belief in Christianity and the Christian God is the only religion that's producing these type of experiences.

Speaker 1 But my perspective, I have personally had people describe the same kind of situations to me.

Speaker 1 The other thing that I would bring up is that my situation, when I finally, I was reading a world history book and it was about the Prophet Muhammad. And

Speaker 1 it was just so egregious, just once again, archaeological record, just how bad it was, where I was just thinking, like, how in the hell can anybody believe in this when we know that these archaeological facts were true?

Speaker 1 And I'd already known what I just described to you about Christianity, but I was still lying to myself. And I just finally just had enough.

Speaker 1 And I shut the Bible and I looked up and I said, I don't believe. And it was just, whoa, just massive weight.
off of my chest.

Speaker 1 And it was the first time in my life that I was being intellectually honest with myself and not letting social pressure and everything else determine what I believed.

Speaker 1 And I kept on saying it over and over again. And I felt better each time.
And I've had a happiness and I've had a peace since that moment that was completely and totally unmatched.

Speaker 1 So, you know, my question is just like, if there is this God and this loving God, and I can tell you, like, I am a person that wants to believe in truth. I want to do good by my fellow man.

Speaker 1 If there is a God.

Speaker 2 That's the Lord in you.

Speaker 1 Well, I'm just saying, if there is a God, I want to believe in him. I want to do right by him.
So it just, I have the intention and I have the desire.

Speaker 1 And supposedly, if there is this God, he has the intention and he has the desire. So why am I being denied an experience like that that would immediately lead me to belief?

Speaker 1 And why has my experience been completely and totally different than when I say, I don't believe? And I said it over and over again. That's when I started to experience my peace.
You understand?

Speaker 1 So that's the part where it's just

Speaker 1 and what's the resolution? Because I don't want to sit here and discount your experience. I mean, you were brought to fucking tears.
Like it was moving.

Speaker 1 But in the same token, I can't sit there just because you had this experience that was moving.

Speaker 2 Well, God's a personal experience with all of us.

Speaker 2 So you can't have that experience. Like you can't have my experience.
And like the thing is, bro, like I didn't.

Speaker 1 So what did I experience then? I'll tell you what you experienced, bro, if you really want to know.

Speaker 2 I'll tell you right now, bro, it's demons. It's demons, bro.

Speaker 1 Like, straight up.

Speaker 1 I'll explain it. But do you understand, though, in order to

Speaker 1 believe that? It's like you first, like I said, I was eight years old and my logical mind was reading the Old Testament.

Speaker 2 I can explain it. I can explain it.
So, like, think of it this way. Like, like,

Speaker 2 you were grown up in this, in this Christianity perspective. So, you've had demons.
from the very beginning trying to bring you away from the truth. Like, I didn't just grow up in this perspective.

Speaker 2 Like, I was aware of it. I was the one that decided to go to church as a child when I was a kid.

Speaker 2 I made my family go because I was trying to finance because I saw a little shadow thing in my room that freaked me out. You ever seen the shadow beings in your room?

Speaker 1 Ever saw those ones?

Speaker 4 When I had sleep paralysis, I saw them.

Speaker 1 You saw them? Yeah. But it's just to me, it's like the mind is like such a powerful thing where I think we

Speaker 1 don't acknowledge just what the mind is capable of seeing. But everyone else is totally incapable of doing.
I mean, it's like your mind is this quantum fucking machine that

Speaker 2 everybody has the same experiences, though. Everybody's having a similar experience.
I mean, it's can why didn't he see a pink bunny in his room?

Speaker 2 Why does everybody see the black shadows in their room?

Speaker 1 I mean, have you seen the DMT research? It's being done.

Speaker 2 That's totally going into the demonic realm. That's 100% real.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, it's... That's real.
Yeah, I mean, Graham Hancock talked about it on the Joe Rogan podcast. It's pretty fucking cool.

Speaker 2 And he talks about the entities that happen to be all over the Aztec wall with all the snakes that come out of them. Yeah, you know about those guys? The snake heads that are all over the Aztecs.

Speaker 1 But Grand Hamcock, though, is he believes in Atlantis, and he believes that the flood that was related to the younger Dryas comets that came and ultimately wiped away the Atlantis civilization.

Speaker 1 And that you look at Goblecki, Techbi, and Turkey, and that's ultimately where

Speaker 1 our civilization that we're connected to started. And it was with the information that came pre-flood.

Speaker 1 And that's once again, like you go back and you look at the archaeological record.

Speaker 2 Our archaeological record is not valid, bro. Like, it's so, it's so broken in so many parts.

Speaker 1 Geological, then. The geological record showing that the younger Dryas comet did smash into the North American ice sheets, did create a sure,

Speaker 2 there's multiple. I mean, why, let me ask you a question.
Why is there no Zeus worshipers today?

Speaker 1 Where are all the Zeus worshipers at? I mean, I think you could say it's.

Speaker 2 Where are the Zoanthrianism worshipers? Where's the Babylonian worshipers? Where'd they all go? Why are the temple? Why are we digging up their temples, bro? So, okay.

Speaker 2 Why are we still still digging them up?

Speaker 1 Okay, okay, but by your own logic, then they're still Jews and they're still Muslims. So does that give their research

Speaker 1 credibility too?

Speaker 2 No, no, Jews and Muslims came after the Judaism today came after Jesus. Just so you know, like it's it's a totally different form of Judaism.

Speaker 1 Well, I know there's the Judaism

Speaker 1 that was, you know, 1000 AD that came about, but I, for me, the archaeological record. So check this out.
So

Speaker 1 my belief from the archaeological record is that the Jewish religion that you're referring to did not come after Jesus and and that there's clear archaeological evidence that shows that it came after 587 BC.

Speaker 1 So telling me about the specific interpretation of it and whatnot, et cetera, et cetera, that is not going to convince me until you can point to actual archaeological evidence that shows that that Jewish religion didn't come about after 587 BC and before Jesus.

Speaker 1 And I'm not trying to be an ass here, but it's like you're making these claims. I'm saying the archaeological record does not support that.
And it seems like you say, well, no, it does.

Speaker 1 And let me tell you why. Here's the interpretation.
And you start going into the interpretation without actually relying on archaeological evidence.

Speaker 2 Okay, well, here's what I would say. I would say that.

Speaker 1 Because the Dead Sea Scrolls were 100 AD, and that was before Jesus, was it not?

Speaker 2 Yeah, there was some components to it.

Speaker 1 So the Dead Sea Scrolls were before Jesus, and the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Speaker 1 And the Dead Sea Scrolls were the Jewish religion that I'm talking about.

Speaker 2 Yes, and that's the one that I refer to mostly, actually. The Dead Sea Scrolls are fascinating.
In fact, the Dead Sea Scrolls talk about the other gods that I'm referring to.

Speaker 1 The Dead Sea Scrolls, the reason why they're so significant and the reason why people think that it gives credibility to the Bible is because I forget how many mistakes there were, but for the most part, they were, you know, like 90-something percent accurate.

Speaker 1 They're very small inaccuracy. So it shows, you know, a great tradition of making sure that documents are copied to the exact thing.

Speaker 2 Very, very clear.

Speaker 1 But that to me supports what I just said, that it was the Jewish religion after 587 BC, which became before Jesus.

Speaker 1 And I guess I would need to know what Jewish religion you're talking about because the Jewish religion I'm talking about is a Jewish religion that was contained in the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Speaker 2 Oh, the Jewish religion in the Dead Sea Scrolls is very valid in a lot of ways, and it's very interesting.

Speaker 1 But it's literally the first five books of the Torah. It's the second book of prophets.

Speaker 2 Bro, it talks, it's got the book of Enoch in there. It talks about the other entities.
It talks about the other gods that you're questioning about.

Speaker 1 Like when you read the second, like, there's so many crazy questions. I'm not questioning those gods.

Speaker 1 I'm saying that those interpretation of those gods came 35 that we know of came 3,500 years before the first Jewish interpretation.

Speaker 1 My claim is that the first Jewish interpretation was after 587 BC and that we have these original stories, everything that you're admitting, I would say the truth of the existence of, that those original stories came 3,500 years before

Speaker 1 there was this interpretation.

Speaker 2 I wouldn't say that it came that time frame. Like the thing is, like our datings is

Speaker 2 not determinably accurate. And so here's what I would say is like that in regards to, I get where your perspective is.

Speaker 2 I get that your, your, your, your view is like, well, this came first, so this must be truth.

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Speaker 2 The old gods came before the biblical text. Okay, they were before the flood.
So everything about the old gods was pre-Bible, was pre-like Judaism, essentially.

Speaker 1 So do you believe that? So all of it was before. The flood that flowed through Adam and Eve came from Inki.

Speaker 2 Do you believe that? No, I don't believe it. I believe that it was God, but Yahweh that put breath of life into it, into him.

Speaker 1 But that's a different perspective.

Speaker 1 And that's what I don't understand. Is that

Speaker 1 I'm saying that that story came 3,500 years

Speaker 1 after the original text. I totally get that it's older.

Speaker 2 And I totally acknowledge that some of these texts are older um the the correction comes in with this understanding because because the narrative the biblical narrative is the only narrative where everything strings together as unice unified scene i don't think it does okay well i'm gonna tell you right now and it goes back to like what i told you about the sunday school example about here we have adam and eve they had kids their kids went out and married and it's just from a very logical perspective well let me let me give you to me let me let me give you the biblical narrative okay so the biblical narrative in relation to like for instance right now i don't know about this do you know much about Sikhism?

Speaker 1 No. Okay.

Speaker 2 So the Sikhism, they believe they're kings and priests. Okay.
They believe in baptism. They believe in not cutting their hair,

Speaker 2 which is a Nazarite vow. In fact, in Sikhism, the word Nazarene means the speaker.
It means the one that speaks. And the Nazar, in fact, they call Christians Nazarenes, I believe, is their term.
Why?

Speaker 2 Nazarene? Why is that a word in their language? Well, it's because of Jesus of Nazareth. Okay.
And so like all of their religion and Sikhism is actually a perversion of Christianity, like, completely.

Speaker 2 And when you realize all of the stuff, like, and then go into Hinduism, like, they believe in Brahma. Brahma married Sere Swati.
Okay. Sedeswati is

Speaker 2 Brahma's daughter. Okay.
Well, in the Bible, Abraham, Abraham, marries Sarah. Sarah is his father's daughter.
So that like when you see this, you're like, wait a second.

Speaker 2 That's like, is Judaism ripping off of Hinduism? But then somehow Christianity is from here, and then this is from that.

Speaker 2 And so like, bro, when you get into it, like, I mean, even the Japanese culture, I don't know if you've seen Japanese in relation to Hebrew text. Have you seen it? It's, it's like parallel.

Speaker 2 Like, type in Japanese and Hebrew and like, just look at the way that font looks. It'll blow your mind.
You're like, wait, wait a second.

Speaker 2 I mean, you know, the little shrine, they call it Mikoshi Shrine that they carry that's gold in Japan. Bro, that's the Ark of the Covenant.
But they don't know that. Those people don't know that.

Speaker 2 They think that there is people misconstrue and think there's multiple religions. There is not multiple religions.
There is one religion that the whole world understands and is connected to.

Speaker 2 Like, and when you come to this realization that all the religions, Muslims, their belief system stems from Christianity, it's a perversion of Christianity.

Speaker 2 Like Jehovah's Witness, same thing, perversion of Christianity. Like the Mormonistic view, same thing.
It's a perversion.

Speaker 2 All the religions of the world, even the pagan religions, they're all perversions of Christianity today. But the ones in the Old Testament were perversions of something else.
Okay, so

Speaker 2 there was some kind of cataclysmic event and the younger Dryas and all this stuff that what's his name talks about, but they like there was some kind of cataclysmic event.

Speaker 2 And that's why all the temples are all being discovered. We're digging up the temples, bro.
What do you think all the pyramids are? Do you know what the pyramids? All over the world?

Speaker 2 What do you think that is? Those are towers of Babel, bro. Why do you think there's an unfinished one on your dollar bill? The unfinished tower of Babel.
That's what the pyramid is.

Speaker 2 What do you think the little eye eye coming down? Like all of the pyramids. So what it was.

Speaker 1 My question then, and this is like

Speaker 1 it goes back to like the problem with evil too and whatnot. So you would agree that religion is important.
It's going to lead you to God, which is going to lead you to heaven.

Speaker 1 I know, I don't agree with religion.

Speaker 1 I don't agree with religion. Or what not, but you do believe in God.

Speaker 2 I believe in God. Okay.

Speaker 1 And you do believe that believing in him is important.

Speaker 2 I believe in Jesus. I believe in God.
I believe in

Speaker 1 you believe that is important. Sure.
Okay. And do you believe that?

Speaker 2 I believe that's the ultimate purpose of life. Okay.

Speaker 1 I'm just, yeah, get that. And you believe that the Bible is how we come in contact with that?

Speaker 2 No.

Speaker 1 You don't? No.

Speaker 2 The Bible is not the rhema of God.

Speaker 2 The Bible is

Speaker 2 a narrative to give us understanding of other individuals that also connected with the Lord.

Speaker 1 Can people have a connection with God without the Bible?

Speaker 2 100%. Jesus even says I have sheep that are not of this fold.

Speaker 1 So someone who's never come in contact with

Speaker 1 the Lakota tribe, tribe they were native americans in america actually know the name of yahweh and there's no historical archaeological connection to why they know that so when you say you're a christian can you tell me what you mean by that then yeah i'm a christian i'm a follower of christ but you believe in the bible yes so 100 believe in the bible what is the significance of the bible then if you don't if you don't need it if you don't need it to have a relationship with christ what is it

Speaker 1 let me read that bible

Speaker 1 please i i don't believe in the bible so it's like when you do that it's like you're arguing arguing after the fact.

Speaker 1 You're arguing after the fact. Let me just say this, though.

Speaker 1 That just made me lose my train of thought.

Speaker 1 This is the whole point, okay?

Speaker 1 If believing in God is important, and I'm a loving God, I'm an all-knowing God, I'm an all-powerful God, I want you to believe in me. Why?

Speaker 1 Why would I put my son on earth and all of these things?

Speaker 1 Well, why? Why?

Speaker 1 We'll see now. We'll see.
Now I'm arguing against something that you don't seem to believe in.

Speaker 1 And that's why I said to define being a Christian. So let me just finish my point and you can get to it.

Speaker 1 My whole point is that the reason why I think religion is just the invention of man is because if there was this loving God and he did want us to believe in him and that ultimately religious documents and whatever else was the mechanism through which we had a relationship with him.

Speaker 1 If I am a loving God, I am going to make that mechanism as effective as possible. I want you to believe in me.

Speaker 1 I want you to have a relationship with me. So if this is the mechanism, if I am truly loving, I'm going to make that mechanism effective.
And if you look at religions, it's ultimately ineffective.

Speaker 1 And that's why we have so much disagreement.

Speaker 1 That's why you and I are sitting here having this debate is because the whole mechanism through which a relationship with God is conveyed to people is highly, highly, highly ineffective.

Speaker 1 If it wasn't ineffective, we would not have atheists. We would not have a disagreement, disagreement amongst religions and all of that.

Speaker 2 I mean, that's a lack of intelligence, I think,

Speaker 2 in a lot of our world, really, that has degraded us to that status.

Speaker 1 Well,

Speaker 1 to me, though, it's a lack of intelligence that comes from being unobjective. And being objective is dealing with facts without distortion created by emotions.

Speaker 1 And so I think that people, because they've been raised with religion, it's tied to their identity.

Speaker 1 they have some kind of crazy experience, they end up in prison, they want to know that, oh, this is part of God's plan, on and on or not.

Speaker 1 There's all, there's all these emotional reasons that cause them to pull a bag over their eyes

Speaker 1 and tell themselves they believe. I agree with you.
And that's what I did for the longest time. And when I finally pulled that bag off of my eyes and was intellectually honest,

Speaker 1 that's when I experienced peace.

Speaker 2 So I'll tell you that when you said, I don't believe, the demons that were influencing your life said, we got him.

Speaker 1 Bye.

Speaker 2 And they gave you peace.

Speaker 1 But once again, though, that's how they why, why would a loving God allow demons to exist in

Speaker 1 the simple. The simple.

Speaker 1 I'm just telling you, from it's simple to you because you have this

Speaker 1 entire construct. And I'm trying to tell you that

Speaker 1 when you're objective and you reject that construct, it's not really simple. Okay.
And it really comes down to human folly.

Speaker 2 So if God didn't let the demons live and he didn't let you make free decision, he would be a tyrant.

Speaker 1 But see, I don't believe in free will either.

Speaker 2 God would be a tyrant if he didn't do that. Do you see what I'm saying? Like, what if you're just like the minute you decide to go against God and he's like, poof, you're gone?

Speaker 2 That's not like you, you want to act like you have a perspective of God, but like you got to really try to try to understand the Lord in that regard. So like think about it this way.

Speaker 2 Imagine you are God because you brought this up. Imagine you're God.
And so you create all your little paper people. Okay.

Speaker 2 You create these little paper people and you're like, oh, this is my little person here. And you make all these little paper people.
And then you program them to know that you're God.

Speaker 2 And they look at you and they're like, we love you, Lord Brian. Are you going to feel anything from those paper people? No, you program them.

Speaker 2 You program them to know that you are Lord Brian. You ain't going to feel anything.
There's no emotion. There's no connection.

Speaker 2 So then let's say you create a bunch of paper people and you give them free will.

Speaker 1 I believe in free will.

Speaker 2 Well, let's say you give, let's say that that is a construct and you give them that will. And then you say, hey, listen, people, you can do what you want.
And then you just step back.

Speaker 2 And you, and then the little people out of all those ones turn around and go, hey, where did we come from?

Speaker 1 Who's that guy over there? Is that a guy over there?

Speaker 2 Did he make me

Speaker 2 feel like you're not going to be able to do that?

Speaker 1 So then, because of free will,

Speaker 1 people suffer. And that goes back to now they're negating that God is all love.

Speaker 2 No, no, no, no, no, I'm not. Watch.
Let me, I'll finish and I'll get to that. So the little paper people turn, they go, did you, did you make me, Lord Brian?

Speaker 2 And you're going to go, my little paper person.

Speaker 1 I made you.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I love you. And like, you're going to feel this emotion, this connection, because this individual had its free intellectual right to do whatever it wanted.

Speaker 2 It could give you paper cuts if it wanted. It could neglect you.

Speaker 1 It could reject you. It could do whatever it want.

Speaker 2 But it turned and it said, did you make me? And you felt something in that moment because God allowed us to have our own freedom of understanding of expression.

Speaker 2 and gave us that free will to do whatever we want. And we chose those that choose to say, God, are you real? That's all he wants.
He wants friendship.

Speaker 2 You know, ultimately, people are are like, I want to go to heaven one day when I die. What kind of selfish nonsense is that?

Speaker 1 And you agree. He's God all-powerful.

Speaker 2 Oh, just wait, wait, wait, wait. I'll answer this one.
But, like, you probably think like a lot of Christians' view is to go to heaven when we die. That's what you think the ultimate view of

Speaker 1 a lot are ultimately influenced by that.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that's the idea. Oh, let's go to heaven when we die.
Bro, that's not the point. That is not the point.
The point is to know God.

Speaker 2 He wants to be like your friend.

Speaker 2 Okay. He wants to know you.

Speaker 1 So, so, so you're, you're making these claims, right? But what I'm trying to tell you is that when you examine the underlying logic, there's huge inconsistencies between what you believe. Okay.

Speaker 1 And that's in that, and like we can literally what I just explained not make sense.

Speaker 2 No. No.
No. Did what I explained not make sense to you.

Speaker 1 Well, if you let me get to it, I'll explain the logical inconsistencies.

Speaker 1 And this is, and this is like the mental gymnastics of why I don't believe with people that believe in religion is because you can sit there, it's the Socratic method.

Speaker 1 You can say, Do you believe in this? Yes, do you believe in this? Yes, do you believe in this? Okay, well, this and this can't be true.

Speaker 1 And in order to make that true, you have to jump through these mental hoops that are just absolutely

Speaker 1 there was no mental hoop with what I just said. Well, I was trying to ask you questions to actually get to the inconsistencies.
And if you follow

Speaker 1 if you follow these debates, I mean, part of it is the problem of evil. Alex O'Connor covers the problem of evil all the time.
If there is this all-powerful God, this all-loving God, right?

Speaker 1 All knowledge, all everything, okay?

Speaker 1 He has the ability to create free will and also, okay, just let me finish. Let me finish.
He would also have the ability to see to it that everyone comes to him as a result of free will.

Speaker 1 And I think that you would admit that people die without knowing him and also with suffering immensely.

Speaker 1 So the whole thing is that if you believe all these premises over here, you can't make sense of the suffering.

Speaker 1 And so you're talking about free will and you're saying that God wants you to know him, but God wants you to know him that you

Speaker 1 came to him as a result of free will. Okay.

Speaker 1 Well, once again, if he is all-powerful and he is all-loving, then my opinion is that it goes without saying that he would create a reality where we still all came to him.

Speaker 2 You're talking about robots, bro. That's the exact analogy I gave you in the beginning.

Speaker 1 Little robots. No.
How is that not totally?

Speaker 1 So now what you're doing is you're doing what's called a false equivalency. So you're saying it's either or, and I'm not saying it's not.
No, it's not either or and I'm not saying it's either or.

Speaker 1 From these premise that you would agree on and you would say you believe,

Speaker 1 I am saying that it would follow if he was all-loving, he was all powerful, there is free will and everything else that you stated.

Speaker 1 I am saying that if you looked at all those premises, you would come to the conclusion that all of us are going to have a relationship with God, knowing him, ending up in heaven, whatever it is supposedly that he wants.

Speaker 1 I think you do.

Speaker 2 I think you have a relationship with God bro I think you you absolutely you absolutely do

Speaker 1 and once again to me you do and to me that goes back to you wouldn't be good you wouldn't have the goodness in your heart if you didn't have a relationship with God you he's in you I think and to me that's just life what sustains life yeah God this is the what sustains life is a symbiotic relationship life doesn't happen without symbiosis so the very reason why we exist why this planet is here is because there are processes that what goes out is ultimately what comes out.

Speaker 2 And where does life come from non-life ever?

Speaker 1 So the human condition, as I've said, is one of uncertainty. I don't know.
I will never know. And I don't care.
And I'm okay with that.

Speaker 2 Yeah, but it had to have come from somewhere.

Speaker 1 I don't care.

Speaker 2 Well, that's God, bro. That's God.

Speaker 1 So it's like I said, read that uncertainty quote from Bertrand Russell. This to me is the most powerful quote.
And I think it sums up the human condition.

Speaker 1 And I think that once you make your peace with this and really understand that you have religion on one side, you have science on the other, and philosophy is something in the middle that is really about being intellectual and really about being objective.

Speaker 2 I don't think it's science and religion at all. I think they're one and the same in my perspective.
So I look at science all the time.

Speaker 2 But I don't think science is.

Speaker 1 So it says, uncertainty in the presence of vivid hopes and fears is painful, but must be endured if we wish to live without the support of comforting fairy tales.

Speaker 1 Obviously, he's talking about religion.

Speaker 1 It is not good either to forget the questions that philosophy asks, he's talking about science there, or to persuade ourselves that we have found indubitable answers to them.

Speaker 1 To teach how to live without certainty and yet without being paralyzed by hesitation is perhaps the chief thing that philosophy in our age can still do for those who study it.

Speaker 1 So I read that quote, and there is nothing that I've read in my life that has resonated so deeply with me. And when I admitted that things are uncertain, and I get it, I have the same

Speaker 1 vivid hope.

Speaker 2 It's supposed to be uncertain.

Speaker 2 Don't you think that's it?

Speaker 1 But that still doesn't prove that there is a God.

Speaker 2 Sure, but that's what leaves you with the space of faith, bro. It says it is impossible to please God without faith.

Speaker 1 Just like I have.

Speaker 1 And that to me is an emotional. Okay.
It's kind of like the Trump card. It's like you have these conversations with religious people and you stump them on logic.

Speaker 1 And they go, well, the Lord works in mysterious ways. And it's just like, it's like, what's the smartest guy that just came out? He has like the highest IQ in the world, right?

Speaker 1 And he said, I believe in God. I saw that.

Speaker 1 So all these religious people are like, see, the smartest person in the world believes in God. And you're saying, but I thought you only cared about faith and I thought you didn't care about evidence.

Speaker 1 So it's this whole thing of, well, if you have me stumped on evidence, then I'm going to tell you it's all about faith.

Speaker 1 But then, oh my God, if someone comes along and there's evidence to prove that God exists, they jump on that so quickly because ultimately they know that it is logic and it is reason that is more powerful than faith.

Speaker 1 So when I see that inconsistency,

Speaker 2 why they do it, but they do it because that's what everybody banters.

Speaker 1 Evidence

Speaker 1 evidence is powerful. And you can, and

Speaker 1 they will only take you so far. No, no, no, no.
And as soon as some evidence comes along, you're like, yes, I was right. I wasn't crazy.
I wasn't wrong.

Speaker 1 So if that was really the case, it's just just like you would be consistent. And that's what I'm trying to say is that I look at religious people and how they argue.

Speaker 1 And I just don't feel that there's intellectual honesty. I don't feel that there's consistent agreement.

Speaker 1 And I feel that there's a lot of emotion to where you're like, well, the Lord works in mysterious ways. And you just pull this bag over your eyes because you want an answer to the uncertainty.

Speaker 1 And to me, it's like what he said, it's not good. to convince ourselves that we've found indubitable answers to these questions.

Speaker 2 Bro, I don't, I don't claim to know the answers. All I know is what myists?

Speaker 1 No, no, no, no, no.

Speaker 2 No, I believe in God, though.

Speaker 1 I'm just messing with you.

Speaker 2 But yeah, it is supposed to be uncertain. That's why God created you to have your decision to not know.
He could have easily made you.

Speaker 2 Okay, like when God made the angels, he made them with this ideology that you're discussing. He made them with that ideology.
Okay.

Speaker 2 He said, he created these beings and he said, you can choose to serve me and you know that I'm good. He created in a realm outside of time.
So imagine existing,

Speaker 2 forwarding time and knowing what life was like and then rewinding time and know what it was like before you existed imagine being able to exist in a realm outside of time okay and these entities could make perfect decisions because it's like do i want to eat that hamburger fast forward oh i'm going to feel sick rewind i'm not going to eat the hamburger you see what i'm saying like it's like in a realm outside of time you don't make mistakes so when god created the angels he created them with the perfect understanding that he was god maybe not total understanding which obviously is true because it says in the word that god didn't give them total understanding but he gave them just enough understanding to know that he was god and he made them think in a sense that he was somehow equal to them actually which is why satan thought he could overpower god because like how are you going to have friends so like

Speaker 1 creation was a mistake no no not a mistake not a mistake at all it was it was an ex it was a an experiment that he he but if you're all knowing why do you need to experiment it's not it's not a matter of all knowing he wanted to have friends he wanted communion he wanted other entities that were also why did he need round two because of the simple way things went down and i'm not and i'm not trying to be an ass here, but it's like I'm presenting a logical inconsistency, it's not logical.

Speaker 1 Your logical mind, no.

Speaker 1 So, if God is all-knowing and He is all good, He never, you're whether you want to admit it or not, you're saying that He screwed up when He created the angels in such a way, no, no, no, that

Speaker 1 He didn't get the benefit, He didn't get what He wanted.

Speaker 2 No, what He wanted was people that had free will to choose to know Him.

Speaker 1 Why didn't He just do that from the beginning? Why did he because there was no because you can't create a world without

Speaker 2 experiencing loss and

Speaker 2 pain without understanding the value of love and life.

Speaker 1 Going back to, and this is...

Speaker 2 You can't experience...

Speaker 2 This is why God created us because he did create a reality.

Speaker 1 Why did he first create the angels?

Speaker 2 He created the angels to be his communion. So he said, hey.

Speaker 1 And it didn't work because they fell from him.

Speaker 2 No, no, no, no. It did work, but not to the extent that he wanted it.
And I'll explain it to you.

Speaker 1 It's very simple. Okay, let's just stop right there.
Let's just stop right there. So you just said, not to the extent that he wanted it.

Speaker 2 Yeah, he wanted

Speaker 1 more friendships. Okay, so listen.
So it's very, very simple. Not to the extent that he wanted it.

Speaker 2 Yeah, so he continued to create. It's like you're wielding

Speaker 2 you're forming a shape of some kind. You're like, oh, it's not good enough.
I'm going to make it better.

Speaker 1 Okay. And if you're all knowing, you don't go through that process.

Speaker 2 No, who's to say that that was the finished process? Okay. Like it wasn't the finished process.

Speaker 1 This is the intellectual dishonesty that I'm talking about, and it's very, very simple.

Speaker 1 If you are all knowing. Okay, like if I want to create the perfect car and I'm all knowing, I don't have to experiment.

Speaker 2 Okay, this goes back to my original explanation. If you were God and you created a bunch of little robots that said, we love you, Lord Brian, are you going to feel emotion?

Speaker 1 You're deflecting from the point that I'm making.

Speaker 2 I'm not deflecting.

Speaker 1 I mean, explaining it very clearly.

Speaker 1 I'm literally talking about one issue and you're deflecting. Okay.

Speaker 1 And like I said, like, I'm not trying to be an ass, but this is my issue when I have discussions with the religious people because they deflect when you catch them on logical inconsistencies.

Speaker 1 And this is a logical inconsistency. And this is actually a very, very common logical inconsistencies that atheists will bring up to theists.

Speaker 1 And what I'm saying is that you're telling me, from what I understand from you, is that the first round with angels was an experiment.

Speaker 1 You literally said

Speaker 1 it wasn't what God wanted. It wasn't perfect.

Speaker 2 It wasn't to the perfection that he wanted. He wanted to continue more.
He was continuing building more.

Speaker 1 And that to me is why it becomes so forced to be able to do that.

Speaker 2 Why do you judge God?

Speaker 1 Who are you to say?

Speaker 1 This is just this is the Socratic method, and this is just looking at premise and seeing what logically follows from that.

Speaker 1 So, if God is this perfect being, if he's all-knowing, if he's all-loving, if he's all of these things, it does not follow that he would then create an experiment that was not perfect and have to try again.

Speaker 2 That's not exactly what it is. God is all of it.

Speaker 1 Well, then I'm asking you to please explain it to me because what I'm telling, what I'm hearing from you, our premise, that if I was writing them down on a piece of paper and I was using a Socratic method and I was saying, okay, well, this follows this, this follows this, this follows this, this follows this, hey, there's a logical inconsistency here.

Speaker 1 Rather than trying to say that the logical inconsistency doesn't exist.

Speaker 1 I'm just telling you that if you wanted to convert me, you would have to acknowledge the logical inconsistency and then at least attempt to explain it.

Speaker 1 But to say that the logical inconsistency doesn't exist, to me is being intellectually disingenuous.

Speaker 2 Okay, so I don't understand whatever logical inconsistency you're describing. Now, you can say, Brian, you're brainwashed and say you're not seeing it.

Speaker 2 However, when you explain it, the way that I can explain it to you, if you would listen, you would be like, oh, okay, I guess that does make sense.

Speaker 2 See, look, what you're trying to do is put God, the creator of the universe, into a little box and say he should fit these little parameters that I, my man, man, mane, made up, my little mind can conceive.

Speaker 2 Like, to me, that seems preposterous.

Speaker 2 So, but I can explain it to you as best as I can that your human mind will be able to understand, but you may not like the answer, but it's not intellectually dishonest.

Speaker 2 I'm explaining the same question that I asked God when I was wondering these things. And I was shown and explained and understood this stuff.

Speaker 2 So, like, you can ask God yourself, or you can listen to what explanation was given to me.

Speaker 2 I mean, like, and I can share that with you, but you, but if you, but you say that I'm being intellectually dishonest, I'm not.

Speaker 1 God is perfect, correct? Can we disagree on some principles?

Speaker 1 God is perfect. Okay.
God is all-knowing.

Speaker 2 God is all-knowing, yes.

Speaker 1 God is all-loving.

Speaker 2 God is all-loving, yes. God is love.

Speaker 1 God is love. So God is all-loving.

Speaker 2 He's the emotion of love.

Speaker 1 He's perfect and he's all-knowing. Sure.
So my question then is

Speaker 1 when he created the angels, and you even said it wasn't what he wanted.

Speaker 1 You said that, correct? Okay, so then we can add another premise.

Speaker 1 When he created the angels, it wasn't what he wanted. Okay.
Sure.

Speaker 2 Was it to the fullest extent of what he was wanting?

Speaker 1 Okay, so then my question is,

Speaker 2 it was incomplete.

Speaker 1 There's a better word. If he is all-knowing, did he know when he created that that it would be incomplete and imperfect? Yes.

Speaker 2 He knew that at the end, it would bring about the full completion of what he wanted. We're not at the end of life.
That's why we're still alive, bro. Like, there's still stuff going on.

Speaker 2 So his completion, you're like a work in progress. You're like he's whittling

Speaker 2 a sculpture of you. And so so the angel's progress is the mid-sculpture.
And you're going, well, look there. It looks like you carved a big hook in your thing.

Speaker 1 And God's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, hang on, Brian.

Speaker 2 Like, we're going to finish this sculpture. And when we get to the end, you're going to see that that wasn't a mistake.
You may see it was a mistake.

Speaker 1 So then is your explanation.

Speaker 2 He's sovereign, which means solve the end.

Speaker 1 It means the end result is how God wants. I'm just trying to make sense of these premises.
Okay. Like, I'm literally asking you honestly.
I'm trying to work this out so I can understand your

Speaker 1 So my question then are you saying that I don't want to call it a mistake because you're going to have some emotional resistance to that

Speaker 1 But you know from my perspective, it seems like incompletion in incompletion So are you just saying that it's a necessary step to ultimately get to perfection? Is that what you're saying?

Speaker 2 I guess you could say that okay

Speaker 1 but but then what I'm trying to say is that you know, in that imperfection, there's so much suffering and there's evil, right? Yeah.

Speaker 1 So then you start to look at the other premise, God is all powerful, where if God is all powerful and here's what he's trying to get at.

Speaker 2 But he's all loving. All powerful and all loving is

Speaker 1 just

Speaker 1 I'm just trying to work out the logical inconsistency. Okay.
So we're trying to get here.

Speaker 1 And you're saying that to get here, that there is a process.

Speaker 1 Sure. Okay.
And this is the whole creation process. You talked about sculptures, whatever it is.
Okay.

Speaker 1 So even if you said, oh, well, God is all-knowing. Okay, fine.
Like he knows exactly how to get from here to here. This is the end, you know, this is the end goal.

Speaker 1 The question then becomes, well, if he's all-powerful and he can create this, then is he not all-powerful? Because is he governed by this process? Didn't he just create the process?

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, he created the process too.

Speaker 1 He created the process. So then my question is...

Speaker 2 Because he's all, because he doesn't lie. He's all good.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 we're getting at the problem of evil. My question then is, why wouldn't he create a different process where all of this suffering and this long process, and that's what I was simply trying to say.

Speaker 2 But then it would be again, and this resorts back to, then it would be disingenuous and it wouldn't be, it wouldn't be emotional.

Speaker 1 But you see where we get the infinite regression with this? Because but you're going to say, but then it would be this, and then I'm going to go back to, but he's all-powerful, so why couldn't he just

Speaker 1 create that a way?

Speaker 2 So, so I am, you know, God has his ways. That's why it says, like, you, this is the question, the Lord recipes.

Speaker 1 That's what's so frustrating. So, but, but, but

Speaker 2 no no no i'm not it's not i'm explaining it to you so i've already given you that explanation i said if you were god and you created robots and you pre-programmed them so there was no pain and suffering and they all turned to you and said we love you lord brian you're gonna feel nothing

Speaker 2 so this path that you're just so then are you saying that you is is the path of roboticness it is the path of non-free will it is the path of no choice so here's the deal so the path that we are going through now does involve suffering, yes, but it also involves free will.

Speaker 2 In the same way, you could slap me, right? You have the free will to do so. Okay.
Is God going to come in here and go, poof, and zap you because you slapped me?

Speaker 2 Is God going to be like, oh, boom, done? No, but there is an understanding with suffering and there's a maturity that comes from suffering. And

Speaker 2 there is understanding God's goodness

Speaker 2 through enduring suffering. Do you understand? Like, you won't know how good things are good if you don't see how bad stuff is.
This is the problem the angels had.

Speaker 2 So you're describing this is, and if you would let me explain the angel concept, you would be like, okay, so he did do this explanation that you're trying to describe.

Speaker 2 And so what happened was the angels did have understanding. They knew that if they went against God, that there was no, there was, they didn't know what was going to happen to them.

Speaker 2 They didn't know about hell. Otherwise, they wouldn't have gone against God because God didn't actually make hell, I don't think, in that capacity.

Speaker 2 But like, regardless, hell wasn't created for you and me. Hell is created for other entities that were infinitely evil, infinitely going in a realm outside of time.
Hell to us, it's cruel.

Speaker 2 Hell is a cruel concept when it comes to humans because like, well, how do you make a decision when you get there?

Speaker 2 And you're going to be like, oh, of course, if I knew this was the answer, I wouldn't have done that.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 2 So that seems like it's such a, it's a cruel concept. But like, that's because it's not for you.
It's a different realm and a different reality of different understanding.

Speaker 2 So the angels, they were infinite. They made perfect decisions.
They could know how to make no mistakes. Okay.

Speaker 2 And they went ahead and they said, well, what would happen happen if we just went against God and didn't do what the good thing that he gave us? We have the free will to do so. What would happen?

Speaker 2 And in that moment, outside of time, because it's only a matter of time. So

Speaker 1 they were imperfect?

Speaker 2 No, they were individualistic

Speaker 2 creations created by God. They were individuals.
They were their own entities to do what they wanted.

Speaker 1 I don't think you understand the way.

Speaker 2 I don't think you understand perfect because you think perfect means everything that comes out of perfect is perfect.

Speaker 1 So let me just explain this to you, okay?

Speaker 1 The reason why atheists start with these premise, okay, is because the beliefs, like they can't all be true because reality is true, suffering, evil, all of these things that you just stated, okay?

Speaker 1 So, this is really the atheist trump card where you can go into, you can say, oh, well, here's an explanation about how all these can be true, but all it does is it presents another inconsistency that can't be true if all of these premises are true.

Speaker 1 And nothing you have just described gets around that, and And it actually reinforces everything that I've just said. I don't think that that does at all, actually.

Speaker 1 It does. Like, there's a reason why these premises are there.

Speaker 1 And it all goes back to, well, if God, God is all-knowing.

Speaker 2 Okay, there's a logical inconsistency. Where does life come from?

Speaker 1 So it's very simple. So God is all-powerful, on and on and on, all these things.
A very simple question.

Speaker 2 Yeah, but you're alive.

Speaker 1 Can God create a rock that he can't lift?

Speaker 2 Oh, that's such a silly question.

Speaker 1 But do you understand? No, no, no, because these are logical questions are logical inconsistencies.

Speaker 2 I can answer it very simply.

Speaker 1 You can't get around with these premises. No, I can't.

Speaker 2 I can answer it very simply. Okay, so

Speaker 2 God is outside of this video game that we call life. Can you, as God, program a rock in your video game world so powerful that you can't lift it?

Speaker 2 You're outside of the video game. God's outside the fourth dimension.
Bro,

Speaker 2 to confiscate God into such a, like, oh, build a rock that he himself can't lift is so unrelated to a creature outside of the fourth dimension is unfathomable it's a silly argument like how could you possibly make such an absurd

Speaker 1 but then I can also make the argument can you make a video game rock so big that you can't do you think somebody who's in the video game who's in actual like creation can actually understand the video game creator I think that comes down to like outright arrogance to really think

Speaker 1 to really think that we understand what created all of this whether it's god whether it's primordial ooze ooze, whatever it is, to really think that we can even come close to comprehending that, I think is the biggest testament of just outright human arrogance.

Speaker 1 I would agree. And I think that when you come to that, you come to things are uncertain.
I really have no fucking idea and I'm okay with that.

Speaker 1 But one of the things that I have observed is that when I'm kind towards people, They feel better and I feel better. That's God.

Speaker 1 When I act out of, you can assign it to whatever you want, but I think then you're negating that you just admitted that we can't understand what God is and we can't understand what created God.

Speaker 1 Well, God is love.

Speaker 2 I'm concerned. He's the emotion of love.

Speaker 1 I'm concerned with the video game and I'm concerned with the here and now is what I'm concerned with. And I don't care what happens when I die.
I care about how

Speaker 1 about how you should feel right now.

Speaker 2 That's what Jesus tells us to be.

Speaker 1 So it really seems that we have a lot of the same conclusions. We just justify them differently.
I'm saying I have no fucking idea. I don't know.

Speaker 1 And it seems like you need the justification of God to give these beliefs weight.

Speaker 1 And I'm just simply saying that I don't need to believe in God to, if everybody says, oh, well, if you don't, if there's no God, then what's to stop you from going out and robbing an old lady?

Speaker 1 Where's my mother? And I'm just like, if the only reason you're not robbing an old lady is because you think you're going to end up in hell, I promise you when you die, you are going to hell.

Speaker 1 God is going to fucking sit there and say, you got things fucking wrong. I know your fucking heart.
And if I wouldn't have threatened you with hell, you would have robbed old ladies.

Speaker 1 You're a piece of shit. Jump into the fucking fire.
So

Speaker 2 this is an interesting concept because, like, there is actually a tribe in Africa that believes in molesting their 13-year-old boys and raping them. Okay.
So

Speaker 2 this is a tribe in Africa as part of their manhood. Would you say that that is good? Because it's part of their culture.

Speaker 1 Yeah, no, I understand. There's actually no, no, no.
And there's anthropological studies too about Papa, Papua New Guinea. There was one where because the man,

Speaker 1 even though he was older, he was

Speaker 1 an unmarried male. So he had to go live in the hut with other unmarried males.
And so couples, when they would have children, they would have children and then they would raise them.

Speaker 1 You know, as soon as they were weaned off the mother's milk, they would have to go live in the hut. And it was kind of like this communal thing.
And so you had unmarried women and you had

Speaker 1 unmarried men. And whatever it was, when you got to like 13 or 14 years old and you would marry, you would then, you know, leave the hut and you would live in your own hut with

Speaker 1 your own significant other. Well, what he observed is that in those little fucking huts, the older boys would have the younger boys fucking do fellatio on them.

Speaker 1 And then it was the same thing with the fucking women

Speaker 1 with the women too.

Speaker 1 I do think that it's wrong.

Speaker 2 How would you even come to that conclusion?

Speaker 1 I'm trying to get to it. Okay.
I'm trying to get to it. It's because I do believe that it results in psychological damage to people.
And you observe that in our culture.

Speaker 1 You look at children that are subjected to anything to do with sex at a very early age, and they have trauma well into their adulthood. And because of that, they don't live these productive lives.

Speaker 1 They don't realize their potentials. They're depressed and they're miserable.
So, once again, like my whole concept of good doesn't have to rely upon this moral code that God gave us.

Speaker 1 It really results in the here and now. And ultimately, what is it doing within this life? Is it creating peace? Is it creating happiness? Is it creating joy? Is it creating beauty? Statistically.

Speaker 1 Is it creating all of these things?

Speaker 2 Yeah, statistically, the church has created more peace in the world throughout the years, more beauty,

Speaker 2 the structures.

Speaker 1 But once again, though, I'm a person that lives without church and lives without God and religion.

Speaker 1 And I personally think that I have a lot more joy, beauty, peace than the vast majority of people that I see.

Speaker 2 Statistically proven that families that are religious like have a higher sense of joy.

Speaker 1 Let me look that up.

Speaker 1 But here's the deal though. The question then is that are we really separating the variable of what's bringing them joy and peace?

Speaker 1 So is it that they believe in, you know, Jesus and religion, or is it they have a certain set of moral codes?

Speaker 1 Because if we could sow the same happiness in a family and they just had the same sort of moral codes and relationship towards them, you know, in inner family and outer family, then is it really the God or is it really this moral code?

Speaker 1 So my whole thing is.

Speaker 2 But that's what God created the moral code, though. I mean, like the code had to come from something.

Speaker 1 I think it was human observation that ultimately created this moral code. And I think that we assign it to God to give it justification to make more people forcefully follow it.

Speaker 1 I think that the majority of people, like you look at Andrew Wilson. Andrew Wilson is the biggest scumbag piece of shit that I've ever seen in my fucking life.
And he is,

Speaker 1 I would love, love to see his fucking internet search history.

Speaker 1 I guarantee, not guarantee, I don't want to get fucking sued, but I would, I would fucking bet anything that if you could see Andrew Wilson's fucking search history, that that son of a bitch incessantly masturbates to every fucking OnlyFans girl that he humiliates on the whatever podcast.

Speaker 1 And like I said, I'm not guaranteeing that. I am not claiming that.

Speaker 1 I am just saying that if I was a betting man, I would bet that if you went into Andrew Wilson's fucking search history, that he is a fucking sick son son of a bitch.

Speaker 1 And yet you talk to him and in his mind, he's fucking God's gift to this world and he knows more than everyone.

Speaker 1 And that he wants to forcefully force religion upon everyone because people don't have the ability to take care of themselves.

Speaker 1 And he's such a fucking hypocritical piece of shit that he sits there smoking fucking cigarettes while he says that.

Speaker 1 And I'm just like, you know, I don't believe in God, but I would be willing to bet that if there was a God, that he would want you to take care of what he has given you.

Speaker 1 And that's not just a spirit, but that's also a body.

Speaker 1 So I don't understand how you supposedly believe in God, want to respect his creation, and yet you sit there and eat like a fucking unhealthy piece of shit and sit there and smoke fucking cigarettes.

Speaker 1 That is the most hypocritical bullshit I have ever seen. So, and the other thing too is,

Speaker 1 once again, I'm not going to say I guarantee, but I would bet you anything that if you convinced Andrew Wilson that there wouldn't be negative consequences, he wouldn't end up in hell, he wouldn't fucking get arrested, That son of a bitch would be robbing old ladies.

Speaker 1 And so, and so that, and that, and that's why he is just so focused on force and negative consequences is because I think that he has those fucking demons inside of him.

Speaker 1 And that it's the fear of hell. The real demons.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Whatever it is. You believe in demons.
No,

Speaker 1 when I say demons, I think more of like, you know, self-delusion, you know, to make things that, what I'm talking about.

Speaker 2 We got 10 minutes.

Speaker 4 Let's get closing statements. And you guys actually agreed on more than than I thought, but I thought this was really productive.

Speaker 1 Well, I mean, I would just like to say this, like, if anything, I don't think I've swayed you. You know what I mean? You haven't swayed me.
Who cares?

Speaker 1 But if anything, I think that people can learn from the kind of conversation that we had where we didn't attack each other.

Speaker 1 I mean, like, I look across and I see a fucking human being and I want, you know what I mean? And I want to learn from you. Yeah, absolutely.
You know what I mean? And

Speaker 1 I want to learn from you.

Speaker 1 And that to me is just the real thing is that, look, we might not fucking agree, but the one thing that is fucking certain is that we're both human beings.

Speaker 1 We both have emotions. We both want the best out of life.
So even if we don't agree on something, like I don't want to attack you. I don't want to, you know what I mean, negate your experience.

Speaker 1 I don't want to point a finger, you know what I mean, and do those kinds of things.

Speaker 1 So if anything, I just think that people, like when they approach these conversations, they just need to understand that there's still a human being on the other side of that conversation.

Speaker 1 And I think that that gets lost when people, you know, just go for viral clips off of fucking social media. And it's more like, yeah, that fucking atheist got humiliated.
Fuck yeah.

Speaker 1 You know, it's just where at that point, it's not even about truth. It's about fucking ego.
So when you approach a conversation, you know what I mean? Like, just don't make it about fucking ego.

Speaker 1 Make it about truth and understand that there is a way where you can both walk away from this. Like, I feel enriched from this conversation and I want to thank you from that.

Speaker 1 Even though I don't feel that you swayed me on anything, I still feel enriched from this and I feel like I learned something from it.

Speaker 2 That's awesome. And I, and I, you know, I

Speaker 2 agree too. I think that, you know, I think God's in you, bro, to be completely honest.
I mean, I, I, in my perspective, like, you wouldn't even, you wouldn't.

Speaker 1 Well, even the Jordan Peterson debate would say, well, what's God?

Speaker 1 We should film you casting some demons out of this body.

Speaker 2 If he wants to go for it, bro, like, I'm not going to guarantee the end result's going to take me.

Speaker 1 There's a demon in me. Get it the fuck out of me.
That's the whole point. Like, I don't want to be deceived.

Speaker 2 Bro, there is definitely demonic spirits.

Speaker 1 Well, you got some videos for us. We'll watch off camera.

Speaker 2 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll show you you some cool stuff.
It'll be interesting. But the, you know, like, like, God

Speaker 2 is in it. And, like, is in all of us.
And, like, that's why, like, when you were born, you knew what things were wrong. When you were born, you knew I shouldn't lie.

Speaker 2 You probably remember the first time you lied or stole something. Like, most people do.
Like, you don't,

Speaker 2 you've been dirtied so bad, dang.

Speaker 1 Most people do. I don't remember.
Yeah, the first time I lied or stole something?

Speaker 1 Yeah, I don't. No? No.

Speaker 2 Well, if you keep thinking, I mean, it might come to you but a lot of people do most people do and that's that the reason why you remember it is because that's the moment you first began to sin and it sticks with you a little bit and so like the first time you looked at like a dirty magazine or something you don't

Speaker 1 remember it that was a fond message

Speaker 2 but the thing of it is that I don't feel guilty for that but that's the thing you don't need it it's it's a significant effect in your life because God was already in you and you knew it was wrong.

Speaker 2 And when you do things that you know you're not

Speaker 1 the whole reason why i remember it is because i was told that it was wrong and because it was wrong i was like oh i want to see a woman's breast it's like if you never would have told me it was wrong and then it was taboo it was it was the very it was the very point of it being i don't think that's the reason why you looked because i i i didn't i saw a dirty magazine when i was a child and i never was told it was bad or wrong i found it in my neighbor's bushes and i just saw it and i was just like

Speaker 2 it was found in my neighbor's bushes because how old are you there was and he was and he was a christian neighbor he was a christian neighbor of course and um he hid it in his bushes to away from his wife and i found it and was like oh my gosh this is bad i knew it was bad i didn't need to be told it was bad brought it to the guy and he spanked me but anyway he was like when he like took it from me and like was like i saw like dude i was like five so it was like just ridiculous but either way like i knew it was wrong i didn't need to be told it was wrong I didn't need to be told.

Speaker 2 You didn't need to be told it was wrong. You know what's right or wrong in your heart.
And that's God in you, bro. That's the Lord.
And that's what Jesus came to explain.

Speaker 2 He said, stop focusing on all this Judaism, religion, nonsense, bro. It's about your heart.
And that's what he explained. He did away with a lot of religious constructs that we had.

Speaker 2 And he came to say, look, bro, it's about how we love one another.

Speaker 2 That's why he said the two greatest commandments is love the Lord your God with all your heart and love your soul love your neighbor as yourself that's it bro and you're doing this when you love people whether you realize it or not Like you gave up religion, sure, but you didn't give up God or you would have been, you'd be a heathen.

Speaker 1 You would be

Speaker 1 completely lost. My whole point, though, is that what you're saying is God

Speaker 1 exists without a belief in God.

Speaker 2 God exists without believing in a relationship in God.

Speaker 1 So to say that that is God,

Speaker 1 that's what I don't agree with because, like I said, the most moral people I've ever met in my life have all been atheists.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and the reason why, I wouldn't say the most moral people, but I would say the reason why that is love in their heart and the most kindness.

Speaker 1 This is the reason why.

Speaker 2 I would say that's Mormons personally, and I'm not a Mormon, but that's

Speaker 1 very nice. Mormons are very nice.
I think think that's like

Speaker 1 Polly of Moore's party. You're coming back out, you're biased against Mormons.
Oh, no, no.

Speaker 2 No, so what I would say is, like, you know, like what you just said, like, you know, the most loved, the reason why Christians don't have a good representation of Christ is because of the pride and the stigmatism associated.

Speaker 2 So you know what Christians do? They have wickedness, right? And they, and they try to hide their wickedness because they don't want to be judged by the other Christians.

Speaker 2 And so that actually ends up becoming more corrupt. So that's why you have bad examples of Christians.

Speaker 2 And it's not, it's not necessarily that they're any different than the other people. It's just the other people are living it out loud.

Speaker 1 But the God says, live hot or cold.

Speaker 2 If you're lukewarm, I'll spew you out of your mouth. And that's why the Christians of the day are a terrible example of what a Christian is supposed to be, bro.
Yeah, like I'm not living in sin.

Speaker 2 I'm not walking in wickedness, bro. Like, you probably don't meet very many people or Christians that do this, that do what I do.

Speaker 1 Bro, I have to.

Speaker 2 Like, if I walk in wickedness and I go confront somebody's demons, bro, their demons will call me out. I've had this happen straight up.

Speaker 2 People call out sin in my life that don't know me when I try to cast the demon out of them. It was embarrassing, humiliating.

Speaker 2 Okay, like, and there's no freaking way this dude know this, knew this stuff. Like straight up, bro.
And like, that's, so I have to walk in a certain level of righteousness.

Speaker 2 Christians are supposed to walk in righteousness. They don't.
So they have a bad example of Christianity, but why, of course, why wouldn't it be that way?

Speaker 2 When something is so close to the truth, of course, Satan's going to attack it the most. So of course, the thing closest to the truth is going to be the most deprived.

Speaker 2 Every good thing in life is on the other side of difficulty. The good fruit is on the branches that are way out there that you can't reach.

Speaker 2 The monkey was going to climb up on the tree where it's so difficult to get to, that's where the good fruit's at. So everything good is on the other side of the wall of difficulty.

Speaker 2 And that's what you're seeing. So when you say that explanation to me about Christians being a terrible example, that just shows me even more so that, yeah, there's probably something real there.

Speaker 2 And that's why the wall is so tall. And that's why when you see it, it's so wicked looking.
It's trying to keep you from the truth, bro.

Speaker 1 but then we're right back to the

Speaker 1 right back to the original thing about these premises if they were true i don't think that would exist well i could i can explain it to you but save it for next time we'll save it yeah comment below your takeaways guys love to see your feedback helps the algorithm a lot and follow both of these guys on social media we'll link their uh social i say please uh tag yeah

Speaker 1 so he sees that oh he'll see that clip yeah he'll see that see you guys later

Speaker 1 yeah

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