Gaming in the Modern World with Ben Brock Johnson and Roman Mars

This is a head gum podcast.

Even the Rich is a podcast from Wondery that tells the jaw-dropping stories about the tumultuous lives of the world's elite, from the greatest family dynasties to pop culture superstars.

Listen to Even the Rich on Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts.

You can listen ad-free by joining Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts or the Wondery app.

All right, Ranch, it's just gonna be me and Heather, but we're just waiting on Heather to get here.

And so hopefully she arrives any minute now.

How are you doing?

You okay?

I'm okay.

Okay.

I used to eat a bunch of spaghetti.

Oh, that's good.

That's good.

That sounds really good.

Yeah, it was good.

Can you guys see me?

Heather, Jesus Christ.

What the fuck's the matter with you?

Wait, wait, wait.

Can you see me?

Heather.

Can you see me?

Heather, yes, can you see me?

We can see you.

Oh, my God.

You're nude.

Oh, my God.

You can see me?

You're nude and covered in kidney.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Oh, no.

Why are you lying?

Oh, no.

Oh, no.

You can see me for real.

Are you doing a bit?

No, I can see you.

Oh, my God.

Oh, no.

I mean, I'm averting my gaze because I'm polite.

Oh, no.

I thought we were invisible today.

I didn't read the email.

I didn't read the email clearly, and I had to get here fast.

So I thought we were invisible.

Oh, my God.

Even if we were just 99% invisible, oh no.

That would be better than I walked here.

I walked here.

Oh my god.

Actually, the people of Los Angeles took it in stride, but

nobody was looking at me.

Oh, fuck.

Oh, my God.

I can't believe I came to work naked.

And you know what's actually more upsetting?

What?

What?

What?

That was Ranch's leftovers.

And you did that to Ranch's leftovers.

Randy's going to eat that later for dinner.

Now Ranch got no dinner.

Okay, well, hold on.

Let me explain.

I know I'm covered in spaghetti sauce, but I thought nobody could see me, so I thought nobody would know that I ate her leftovers, and I got it all over me.

And I'm like, there's no point in cleaning up because I'm invisible.

Let me ask you, can I ask you an honest question?

Oh my god, I'm humiliated.

Can you see the poop on my legs?

Oh my god, I wasn't looking.

I wasn't looking at you.

Oh my god.

I thought nobody could see the poop on my legs.

So I was like, it's fine.

I'll just get that later.

Oh, my God.

Heather?

Oh, no.

heather i'm just gonna i'm gonna do you a kindness

oh no you gotta go home and take a shower we will never

we'll never speak of this again i'll do you this kindness this will never come up again oh yeah okay oh yeah okay okay okay thank god nobody notices that i'm naked and covered in fettuccine alfredo

911

we talk about gaming in the modern world and interview roman mars and ben brock johnson from their podcast hidden levels this week on Get Played.

Welcome to Get Played, your one-stop show for good games, bad games, and every game in between.

It's time to get played.

I'm your host, Heather Ann Campbell, along with my fellow host, Matt Abadaka.

Hello, everyone.

Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the Premiere Video Game Podcast, where this week we have guests.

That's right, guests, but they're not here yet.

They're not here yet.

They're going to come later.

They're coming in later.

They're coming in hot.

They'll be coming in hot.

They're going to come in spicy.

We're short one Tiger Weiger.

He's out for the episode, but

we're going to do our best to do a real adults interview of these people the way that Matt and I have very rarely been put to the test.

That's right.

I kind of wish I had worn,

I don't know, like a turtleneck or something.

We're both in Oasis shirts.

We're both wearing Oasis shirts, which I think really sold the vibe.

Or really sells the vibe.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's like, oh, these guys are approachable.

Yeah,

they're both wearing Oasis.

They're just a couple of lads.

Yeah, they're just, they're just,

they're here for it.

They're mad.

They're mad for it.

They're mad for it.

Do I detect that they're mad for it?

We're mad for it.

Yeah.

We're mad for it.

Man, can you?

What is I wonder if there's a phrase that Americans say that in the UK they make fun of us, but also lovingly try to emulate the phrase?

Like, it could be something like out of the blue.

All the words I can think of are a big bummer.

Yeah.

I did say American.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what it's.

Yeah.

I mean,

gosh, I feel like it's T-minus, like,

always like two minutes before something like this comes up in my brain nowadays.

But when I was in Italy, I was sitting across at a restaurant from this English couple who then we befriended because our server kept bringing us limoncello shots and he got us fucked up and we just hung out with this English couple for four hours.

Love it.

It was really, really lovely.

But it got to a point where

the guy in the couple was like, all right, I got to ask you, what the fuck's wrong with your guys' country?

And I was like, it's interesting that you're asking me this of all people.

I was like, yours is not so great either, but I was like, I don't have a satisfying answer for you.

It is weird to be both in a country that is constantly shouting about how it's the best in the world and anywhere else you go in the world, people are like, wow.

What?

And I also think it's very telling.

Yes.

That nobody else in the world is creating their own version of TikTok.

No.

I mean, sure, China has a different, uh, a different social media app, but like

France isn't like, uh-oh,

we had, we have to create, we have to create our own version of TikTok because the algorithm is poisoning the minds.

Theirs would be too fancy.

It would be.

It'd be too fancy.

You know what?

We're going to French TikTok.

Every video is that same same guy.

It's just one guy.

What's the deal, Mick Flip?

He's just doing all people's stuff.

Wait, no, no, I was just doing like random TikTok startups.

I see, I see.

I was not citing that awful, awful man.

We're doing a good job on the show today.

We are?

We're going to do a great job.

Is that the you're setting the bar?

I'm setting an intention.

Okay.

We're doing a great job on the show.

Everyone's going to be happy.

Uh-huh.

Because I think, look, I know that Nick's sort of like, what's going on outside?

You feel that?

Is that a tank rolling down the fucking street?

It's a car with heavy bass.

Okay, I see.

But it does, it is so heavy that it is through several layers of soundproofing

in an audio recording facility, and it is still vibrating the windows.

Yeah, yeah.

I thought it was like, I'm glad that you said something because I thought I was going to suffer in silence.

Wait, no, you said something.

I think maybe it activated me.

I've lost one second of memory.

Something about a car with really loud bass feels nostalgic.

It feels like now everything is of such a different caliber and

tension level that when you hear somebody just rolling down the street with like big bass, you're like, oh, yeah, okay.

Yeah.

That's nice.

Do you think it's the Doof Warrior?

What's that?

From Mad Max Fury Road?

Is that his name?

The guy that plays the I didn't know

the Doof Warrior.

Doof Warrior.

Doof Warrior.

I didn't know.

It could have been him.

It could have been him on his rig.

It could have been him on his rig.

Now that's a movie.

Can you imagine if aliens invaded and they sounded like party base

that most people wouldn't even come out of their houses to see what was happening?

Thanks.

Yeah, yeah.

Must be Red Fu and Sky Blue outside having a blast from LMFAO.

Okay.

Nick and I know are the ones that know that.

Yeah, there's

I'm struggling here because there's a

more stuff that Nick knows.

Yeah, say it.

And we can stare at his empty chair.

It's been a long day without you, my friend.

But I'll tell you all about it when I see you again.

Why are you telling me about the podcast, Matt?

Hey, buddy, why are you telling me that?

Look, I'm excited to talk to these guys, but we have other stuff we got to do.

We do.

And one of the things we do on the show is we ask a question.

It's an important question.

We talk about video games and we ask questions.

This is a video game podcast.

First and foremost, it's the premier video game.

Video game podcast.

There's other ones.

There are other great ones that I really like.

Oh, yeah, for sure.

I could shout them out if I wanted to.

But I could.

I'm going to keep it to myself.

Okay.

Because, look, we're trying our best.

We're trying our best and we're coming for you, actually.

Yeah.

so you better watch your ass.

Yeah,

and I don't want to hear nothing about what you guys trying to stop us.

Okay.

You understand me?

Listen here and listen good.

Just know that if you've got a video game podcast, so do we.

And we're doing ours.

Who is this guy?

Is this you or is that a guy?

It's actually just me.

Okay.

Me trying to be like a tough guy.

Okay.

It was good.

I was nervous.

Ranch is back, by the way.

Yes, ranch is back.

I was not here last week.

Ranch is back.

Did you have fun wherever you were?

You don't have to say where you were or what you're doing.

No, I did.

I was in the bay to see family and then I went to Napa.

Oh, did you eat any crab?

No crab.

Okay.

Did you stop on any grapes?

No.

I was too scared to get hurt.

No grapes, no crab.

Sounds like a great trip, Ranch.

Bring you in just to see.

Great thanks, Ranch.

Loved the story.

Could you tell it again?

Such a jerk thing to do to like.

So unnecessary.

To also ask about one food and no follow-up question.

Wait, yeah, so you didn't do the one thing I thought you did?

That sounds like a nice time.

Looked like you were with a fun group.

Yeah, it was very nice.

That's great.

Shout out to the two people I know in the group.

They know who they are.

I saw one of your friends at a party.

Oh, really?

Oh, Alexis.

That's right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Has come up on this show as well in the past for

her

Animal Crossing Island.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Had a really nice time

chatting with Alexis.

But look,

we're not here to make veiled threats to the other video game podcasts.

We're not here to

criticize Ranch.

Harass Ranch about what she did and did not do on her trip.

I guess I just, for me, if I'm thinking about it, if I was doing the trip, I would have done things a little bit differently.

That's it.

Yeah, for sure.

I would have eaten crabbed and stomped grapes.

Every grape in the tri-state area would be fucking flat.

Crabs running, grabs stomped.

Yeah,

they would be out of grapes when I was in town.

I'd be like fucking Donkey Kong and Donkey Kong banana to these fucking grapes.

Gently setting the lobsters free, eating crabs.

The lobsters, I got no beef with you.

Yep.

The crab meat's kind of where it's at, though, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

The crab, like, lobster's good, but it's like sort of fake.

It's fake good.

It's fake good.

Crab is better.

Crab is good.

Do you agree?

I agree.

Yeah, crab is good.

Lobster is kind of not good.

Fuck a lobster, you say.

Fuck a lobster.

That's right.

We don't have time to talk about seafood either.

Even though I could, I love it.

I spent a lot of my life not eating it.

Didn't know I liked it.

Oh.

And so now I'm kind of, every time I can make up for lost time, I get like the craziest seafood thing I can get.

Okay.

Like big pasta with clams or something.

Oh, yeah.

That's good stuff.

I can't eat clams in a soup or in a pasta.

I can eat them on the side.

I can't handle shell in broth or shell in noodles.

They do, unfortunately, like come with trash that you can't do with anything.

You can't eat it.

You can't eat the shell.

So you got to sort of put your hand in your pasta, kind of, and scoop it out and then put the shell on the side.

I mean, I would never want a soup that also had bones just laying in the soup.

That to me, though, if I'm ordering like a chicken, like with like a chicken broth with like chicken in it, and I got a little bit of bone in there.

To me, I'm kind of like, okay, they made this.

This is fresh.

Sure, but not if every single piece of chicken had bone.

No, no, no, no.

Well, that's what the deal is with a clam and a soup.

Yeah, clam is bones.

Clam is bones.

We're not here to talk about that.

We're here to talk about video games and ask an essential question.

And that question is:

What are you playing?

Are you playing hides me the Regident Evil Region?

And I'm offended that you guys didn't ask me to sit in for Nick.

Oh No, I thought we sent you an email.

What?

At least uh which address

re4 merchant at hotmail.com I don't use that one anymore.

You don't use hotmail anymore?

Did you get the other one any other ones?

RE4MERCH at gmail.com?

No, I locked out of that one.

Yeah illegal activity.

Oh, okay.

Did you have God?

Does Yahoo still exist?

Yahoo exists.

Okay, so, oh, wait, wait.

Maybe we sent it to Yahoo at Yahoo.jp.

So I didn't send it to that one.

That's my email.

You got Yahoo at Yahoo?jp.

So it's specifically like the Japanese server?

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, I mean, like, you know, canonically, that is where I'm from.

Aren't you from like some sort of like a Spanish pastiche?

I'm in Spain.

Yeah.

And I work in Spain.

I see, I see.

But I was technically created.

I guess you're right.

In Japan.

That's right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

My mom and my dad.

I was hoping you weren't going to go down this way.

I

didn't work at

Camcom.

Okay.

And they fucked in the lobby.

They fucked in the lobby where all great ideas are born.

Walk into a building.

If you don't have an idea in the lobby, walk out.

Yeah.

That's what I say.

And

if you have an idea, it is my understanding that you have to fuck in the lobby to get the idea heard.

Fuck in the lobby, like my mom is sort of like you're getting you're giving birth to a concept.

I feel like I'm

the truth is, man, I'm pulling it like I'm not from Japan.

You son of a bitch.

My birds didn't fuck in the lobby.

Everything you just told me was lies.

You was goofing?

I was goofing.

No wonder you got Yahoo at yahoo.js.

Yahoo, Yahoo.jp.

Well, sorry you're not able to fill in for us today, Resident Evil Killer.

No, it's okay.

You got a third chair.

I think he's going to show up, though.

If he shows up, he shows up.

No, I mean, Weiger.

I think he's going to show up.

I think Weiger's going to show up.

So

I feel like Resident Evil Merchant, I feel like you've got to

hang back.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think you got to go.

Because imagine how hurt he'd be if he showed up and you were sitting in his chair.

And he doesn't like to play musical chairs.

He always sits in the same chair.

He always sits in the same chair.

He's just not here yet.

Okay.

All right.

I think you hit freeze value.

Yeah, you just got to believe us.

I do, because you're my friends.

That's right.

And we wouldn't lie to you.

You would never lie to me.

Now you gotta go to sleep, actually, because Santa's supposed to come tonight.

Is that true?

I think so.

He doesn't come if you're awake, though.

That's right, it is.

You gotta go to sleep.

It's September 25th.

It's Christmas.

That's right.

You gotta go to sleep.

Light on decorations is here outside.

Yeah, I think the spirit, the people just aren't feeling it just because of everything.

a new era of power has arrived with the Alienware Area 51 gaming laptops intentionally engineered to push more power to the CPU and GPU for maximum performance.

Combined with Intel Core Ultra 9 processors, merging CPU, NPU, and integrated GPU into one AI optimized chip, it delivers fast, smart, and seamless performance across everything you do.

And with the new cryo chamber design, Airflow is focused exactly where it's needed most.

Fused with Alienware's enhanced thermal solutions, it creates a higher power output without raising noise levels, allowing you to play with confidence even during the most demanding marathon gaming sessions.

So, no matter what you are playing, Alienware ensures every game runs precisely as its developers intended.

A new era of power is here.

All you have to do is take it.

Discover Area 51 today at www.alienware.com slash area-51 laptops.

Look, sometimes you're wanting to watch something, you're in a different country where something is not streaming and you can't stream it anymore.

So sometimes you need a VPN to sort that out.

And luckily, NordVPNs got your back.

Shield your online activities activities from your ISP or hackers monitoring your connection.

Encrypt your connection to make public Wi-Fi networks safer to use.

Use Threat Protection Pro to scan files you download, block ads, and avoid malicious links.

Get alerts from Dark Web Monitor if your credentials are discovered in hackers' hands.

The last place you want your credentials.

NordVPN can switch your virtual location allowing you to save money by purchasing flights, hotels, and subscriptions from other countries at a cheaper price.

NordVPN is one of the fastest VPNs out there.

Premium cybersecurity for the price of a cup of coffee per month.

To get the best discount off your NordVPN plan, go to NordVPN.com slash get played.

Our link will also give you four extra months of the two-year plan.

There's no risk for Nord's 30-day money-back guarantee.

The link is in the podcast episode description box.

Hey, buddy.

According to the National Institutes of Health, as many as 30 million men in the U.S.

experience ED.

It's more common than a bad night's sleep.

Hey, it might also be a cause of a bad night's sleep.

Up all night.

Think about not being able to get it up all night.

The good news, HIMS makes getting access to treatment simple so you can feel like yourself again without the stress or awkwardness.

Through HIMS, you can access personalized prescription treatment options for ED like hard mints and SexRX plus climax control if prescribed.

HIMS offers access to ED treatment options ranging from trusted generics that cost 95% less than brand names to hard mints if prescribed.

You shouldn't have to go out of your way to feel like yourself.

HIMS brings expert care straight to you with 100% online access to personalized treatment plans that put your goals first.

This isn't one size-fits-all care that forgets you in the waiting room.

It's your health and goals put first, with real medical providers making sure you get what you need to get results.

Think of HIMS as your digital front door that gets you back to your old self with simple 100% online access to trusted treatments for ED and more, all in one

place.

Wow.

To get simple online access to personalized affordable care for ED, hair loss, weight loss, and more, visit HIMS.com/slash get played.

That's hims.com slash get played for your free online visit.

Hymns.com slash get played.

Actual price will depend on product and subscription plan.

Featured products include compounded drug products, which the FDA does not approve or verify verify for safety, effectiveness, or quality.

Prescription required.

See website for details, restrictions, and important safety information.

Yeah.

What are you playing?

I'm glad you asked.

Thank you so much, Resident Evil 4 merchant.

I got a couple things to report.

First of all, I went to Halloween horror nights at Universal Studios.

I love to hear it.

And here's something you got to know about me.

Obviously, I'm a bit of a coward.

I get a little scared, okay?

Oh, that's right.

When we played our worst games that we could possibly play, yours was a scary game.

Mine was scary.

I don't like to get scared too much, but I do like to engage with horror.

You know, like I love Alan Wake 2.

I love Resident Evil 4, Silent Hill 2.

Like that stuff.

I like horror movies quite a bit, but I get scared.

And so I went with my wife, my sister-in-law, and two of my brothers.

Okay.

And it was just a real sweet time.

Just a bunch of siblings hanging out.

It was really cute.

All right.

It was a really nice time.

Okay.

There were two mazes that I got to talk about because they're based on video game IP.

Whoa.

Which is unbelievable to me as somebody who's been going to horror nights for many years.

Yeah.

We got a Fallout maze.

Oh, yeah.

Based on the TV show Fallout.

Right.

But a TV show based on a video game.

And the Five Nights at Freddy's maze.

Okay.

Based on the movie, based on the game.

Right.

Let me talk about the Fallout one first.

Okay.

The Fallout one was not particularly scary to me.

Okay.

Because the show is not scary.

Yeah.

So you're sort of like, how are they going to make scares in this?

It's, it starts with the,

if you'll remember from the show, like the massacre within the vault

where the ravagers from up above come and they, you know, start killing people or whatever.

It's, that's like the big set piece of the maze, which is really well done.

The sets look really, really great, and it looks like you're like in the vaults.

Um, the jump scares in that are like good guys like killing bad guys, so like they kind of like

oh, surprise, like, and like they then they kill like somebody in front of you or whatever.

So, like, you're kind of like, What the?

This is so crazy and so cool.

Because, like, it'll be like a guy running at you, and then the ghoul or something will like take him out, or whatever.

So, like, that so it was really well done.

Uh, I liked it, it just wasn't like very scary.

There were scarier mazes, certainly.

But my favorite maze of the night was

the first maze we did, which was Five Nights at Freddy's.

And if you remember, when we talked about the movie, none of us liked it very much.

Yeah, it's not a highlight of our year.

And I think we talked about the game a little bit.

Maybe we talked about the game when we talked about the movie.

I don't remember.

I don't remember.

I played a little bit.

I played the game a little bit.

Yeah.

And I was like, this is fine.

Yeah.

Maybe we did a whole episode on the game.

I can't remember.

The maze was fucking incredible.

Oh, wow it was so great and like had legitimate scares in it like the because um they had some of the characters like they mean they had all the main sort of animatronics and some of them were like they were mostly puppets i would assume but some of them looked like they were standalone animatronics but then they had like people in sort of black hallways wearing fully black like you know, leotards or whatever.

And they were puppeteering the animatronics to make it look like they're coming to get you.

And so that was really, really awesome.

And it's like you're sort of following the story of the movie, I guess.

But the thing that I thought they did so well was replicate moments from the game where, like, you'll turn a corner and you'll have been captured, or, you know, you're face to face with Freddy Fazbear or whatever, and it'll make the

sound from the games.

And I was like, that's so cool that they were able to, like, put that spin on it versus the sort of inert like movie.

Yeah, and I know there's a second one coming out, and I've already made this decision.

I'm gonna see this movie.

Okay, because like I didn't care for the first one, but what if they get it right in the second one?

What if they got it right?

They might get it right.

Uh,

it was that was everybody's favorite maze of the of the night.

Uh, and it was just crazy that there were two video game mazes in general.

Yeah, for sure.

Um, I'm also still playing Silk Song with Ranch.

I want to check in with you about it because we haven't had a chance to talk about it yet.

I'm still in Act 1.

I'm about 31 hours in.

I'm still in Act One.

I think I've done as much as I can side stuff-wise, where now I have to progress and beat

who is known as the last judge.

the boss that is blocking you from entering the citadel.

And so far, I have not done it yet, but I've gotten close.

Ranch, where are you at in the game these days?

I think I'm at 40 hours.

Okay.

And I have beat the last judge.

Wow.

Wow.

You dropped this.

It's a gamer card, by the way.

Ranch is more of a gamer than me.

I fucking suck at this game.

I'm going to quit.

Don't quit.

I fucking quit.

Ranch fucking.

You know what?

Being a gamer is not a measure of quality.

It's a measure of interest.

You can be the worst ever at a game, but you are still a gamer.

I basically am.

I fucking suck at this fucking game.

And like, Matt,

you're terrible to this game.

It sounds like you can't do what the game wants you to do.

Even to get out of act one, you're really bad at it, but that doesn't mean you're not a gamer.

Don't ever doubt yourself.

You are a gamer.

Even if you never beat this boss, which honestly, I'm pretty sure you won't.

I think I will.

I just know, because I know what I'm doing wrong.

I'm getting greedy.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And you, with this boss, this boss has like a chain with like a, you know, what's that called?

Like a mace on it.

And sometimes it'll hit you and it's getting you for two damage.

I have six masks and I have a

boon that gives me a sort of critical hit

mask.

Yeah, the skull.

Yes, I have that.

And I'm just getting greedy and I'm going too fast.

And I think this boss wants me to slow down and like really take my time.

Because there's the

all of her attacks are, I think, completely avoidable.

You could, you could probably do it if you were like really good at it without taking any damage.

Because she has very obvious signals, too, that she's doing, uh, where like she'll like lean in a certain way, and that means she's going to start tossing her damn uh her mace.

Okay,

but

if you are standing right by her, you're going to get fucking, you're going to get hit.

You're going to get hit.

But so you got to find your windows.

I'm going to do it.

Regardless if anybody sitting to my left believe in me at all.

I do believe in you.

I completely believe in you.

I'm going to do it.

I believe 100% that you're a gamer.

I believe in that you.

What the fuck?

Can I tell you how I beat the last judge?

Please.

Don't tell me Mark did it.

Hell no.

It did take me.

That was like the longest boss.

The run back for that, I think I did at least a hundred times.

Okay, yeah.

I got so familiar with the movements.

Yeah.

I was playing during a Zoom recording.

So I had

all the audio off.

Yeah.

And I beat it during the Zoom recording with no music and no sound.

Oh, interesting.

And for some reason, I feel like the no sound really helped me.

Yeah, Yeah, you weren't getting psyched out by her really great music.

Yeah.

We've talked about that with Elden Ring before, where it's like you turn off the sound and suddenly the game is easier.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because you're just like, you're not focusing on how scary

Moe is.

Yeah.

And then someone else talking.

Yeah.

I don't know.

It just worked.

It just worked right.

I'm going to try it tonight.

I'm going to.

I'll try it

while my wife's asleep.

Also, I don't know know if you've gotten the tax like the thumbtacks.

No, I haven't gotten those yet.

I gotta, I gotta, maybe I'll just look at a guide to see if I can get those because I have the ones you can put in the air.

I've been laying those down.

Yeah.

And

you get to second phase very quickly.

You save some for second phase, and it does a lot of work.

Okay, I'm gonna go back and get those then because I did do something that I didn't think I would be doing.

I was like farming for resources.

Like I found like a rose, like a little patch of area near the,

what's it called, like the halfway house or something oh yeah with all the yeah there's like there's a lot of there's a bunch of little guys that drop you get like maybe like 60 rosaries a run or whatever which is not a ton but i was just like i'll just like devote some time you know

to getting this and then i bought a bunch of stuff because like some of the some of the stuff's not cheap like you want like a a new mask shard or whatever it's like 500 rosaries or whatever the rosaries are you lose them quite a bit so i i cleared out a couple stores but i gotta get i gotta get these tax these because i've heard about the tax and everyone's talked about the tax, and I wasn't, I haven't, I haven't gotten them.

You got to get the tax.

I got to get the tax.

I'm also playing Super Mario 3D Land on my

recently modded new Nintendo 3DS.

Which I have here in my backpack.

I want to show you, actually.

Because I bought a

snap-on case for it because mine had a little bit of cosmetic damage, but otherwise, the screen is really nice.

Look at this.

It's gorgeous.

Yeah, that's really cool.

And it doesn't add much health.

Oh, it's

metal.

Yeah, it's like metal.

It's a metal case.

Yeah.

It's really nice.

Holy shit, can I turn it on?

Yeah, you can turn it on.

My background is the Metal Gear Solid

3 Snake Eater 3DS port.

It's going to take a million years to turn on because

it's so modded.

Because it's modded.

But I was messing around with the

Virtual Boy emulator.

That's some good stuff.

It is.

It's really, really good.

It's so good.

I was really loving it.

But yeah, it's a nice little device.

And I think perhaps

Switch 2, notwithstanding, I think that the new Nintendo 3DS

XL is the most premium device Nintendo has ever made.

I think your screen is better than mine.

You think so?

Yeah, I do.

I do.

I have an IPS screen.

I don't know if mine's IPS.

I have an IPS screen, and

I think this is a better screen.

I think the default, look, I understand that the blacks are blacker and all that in the IPS, but the 3D effect, which is very important to me, just looks better on the original screen.

Yeah, I recently got this because I didn't have a.

There's so much viewing angle on it.

I didn't have one.

I only have a 2DS Excel and I don't have the...

3D effect and I missed seeing the 3D.

It's so good.

And it's really, really great.

I've been taking pictures of my cat and my wife with the 3DS camera, and it's very fun.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I try to then show them to my wife and she's like, very nice, Matt.

That's nice.

But yeah, so I've been dipping into 3D land quite a bit, and I forgot.

That game's a fucking banger.

It is.

It is so goddamn good.

And I'll probably try to finish it.

I've 100%ed

the first two areas already.

So I'm going to be flying through it.

Yeah.

But that's it for me.

Quite a few things to report, but that's it.

That's a lot to report.

What about you, Heather?

You know, other than still celebrating the news that the Virtual Boy is returning, which, again, we haven't really covered on the show, but you, I think that's because the sort of crater left by the announcement was so big in my life.

We're all still trying to put together like bits and pieces of like just how we're feeling.

I cannot believe that I'm going to have another virtual boy on my desk.

It's the craziest possible outcome of 2025.

Yeah, um,

so that being said, that aside, Matt, did you know that it had been 13 weeks since I played Fortnite?

This is,

dare I say, a fucking bombshell.

It makes sense based on what I know.

Yeah.

I have not had, I've not had internet access for 13 weeks.

And I've only been able to game on the go or game offline.

And so I finally have internet access again.

And the first thing I do is, of course, boot up Fortnite and say hi to my friends.

Yeah.

The game is so fucking good.

But

right now,

Fortnite is so buggy

that it is like they don't have money.

Did they add the characters from a Bugs Life?

I wish that that was the case, Matt.

There are so many known bugs.

The hammer from several seasons ago is back in the game.

If you equip the hammer and you use the hammer on a console, there is a huge chance that you won't be able to run anymore.

Huge chance.

That's crazy.

In Fortnite.

Like a game that is making these guys, what, $10 billion a year, if not more.

If you drive a car and you're on console, the buttons are remapped and they're all fucked up.

You can't break, you can't lean out the window and shoot your gun because that's a bug.

There are so many bugs that I uninstalled Fortnite,

reinstalled Fortnite on a console to try and fix these bugs.

All the bugs are still there.

I cannot tell you what it's like to wait 13 weeks to play Fortnite, hop online, see my bros.

Yeah.

We're still having fun, but that all of us are like, fuck, the fucking hammer's fucking broken again.

Like all of us.

And what are they going to do?

They got to fix it and they don't care.

Daft Punk is coming to the game next week.

I did see this and that has me very, very excited.

Daft Punk is coming to the game.

I'm dressed as Saitama and I'm running around as One Punch Man.

I don't know if you've heard this about the One Punch Man collab because, of course, I haven't talked about Fortnite for 13 weeks.

So, there are a ton of characters in the game in Fortnite skins that are representative of godlike or god or god-near beings.

Superman, you know, like Thanos, like people who are Thor, I think, is in the game, like people who are effectively impervious.

Apparently, the deal that they made with the creators of One Punch Man Man would not allow Saitama to be in the game if he was Saitama because he can't get killed.

He can't get injured.

He can't take a bullet.

Like, he's the whole hook with him is that he's level 100 in a world of 99.99s, right?

If, like, if you're a fucking Superman, he still wins.

If you're Superman and Goku and like if you're everybody, he still wins because that's the joke.

Yeah.

So he flickers like he's uh television uh like he's uh

got static interesting because saitama is playing the game but isn't in the game

superman is in the game superman is superman yes hatsuni miku is hatsuni miku yes she has a gun and is running around maleficent ariana grande ariana grande Captain Hook, all there, all on the island.

Do you think they're going to do Elphaba and Glinda?

wish they would, but they probably won't because you can't, I can't imagine the creators of that musical being like, what this needs is that we see these characters holding a fucking shotgun.

The emote would be so good.

Oh,

there are, it would be awesome.

It'd be so good.

To win and then drop that emote would be so good.

Just as good as I did.

I still think the most disrespectful emote is Jake Sully's emote.

It is so fucking funny to win a game and then curiously look at a flower.

It is so fucking funny.

Very disrespectful.

But so there are a lot of complaints because when Saitama dropped, people were like, why the fuck is he flickering?

Like he's got like digital artifacts and sometimes he's a little transparent.

And it's because he's canonically not in the game.

He's playing the game.

And I love it so much.

Yes.

I love it so much.

I couldn't love a decision by a company more, a company, than that Saitama isn't in Fortnite.

He's playing Fortnite.

Yes.

That's to me like how when they added Sora to Super Smash Brothers,

the fact that there's a canonical reason for him being there is very, very funny.

Yeah.

It's good.

Yeah.

They wouldn't even want to be like, yeah, he's just in it.

Yeah.

There's like, no, there's a lore reason now.

Yeah.

You have to think about it.

Yeah.

They almost didn't allow it.

People are like, but Goku's in the fucking, yeah.

Goku can get knocked.

He gets fucking.

Goku gets fucked up.

He gets fucked up.

Superman has died in the comics.

Yeah, Batman dies all the time.

It'd be such a bummer if one of the times Superman dies, he gets shot with a gun.

It's really funny to me that Saitama's in it and he's and he's not in it.

That is great.

Because everybody else is in it except him.

He's playing.

You know, I was playing it a little bit when it launched on Switch 2.

Uh-huh.

And was like, this is a perfectly fine way to play.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But I just,

I go through phases with it.

I'm not like as dedicated to it as you are.

But like when I get in there, I'm always having a good time.

It's a good game.

Yeah.

So I was playing that for the first time in forever.

The Power Rangers or the collab.

You can get into the Megazord.

If you do it with a full squad, all of you do the poses as like the transformation, and then you're in the Megazord and you each control a limb,

which is...

Rad.

That's awesome.

Because like, that's how it would work in theory.

It's like, if you're not red, then you're working a leg.

When I was a kid, Pyro Rangers was like the most important thing to me in the world.

And I thought it was going to be important to me forever.

And I still like my memory of it, but I haven't

checked in on it.

Yeah.

It's well, it's still good IP.

It's great.

Their masks are great.

They have lips.

That way they can kiss.

So that's a good collab.

That's super fun.

Megazord's fun to play as.

Rita Repulse is in the game.

And it's her voice.

Yeah.

She's like, she's also bribing everyone to attack the power range.

Like, when the Megazord shows up, she'll be like, use my boons and kill the Megazord.

And you're like, yeah.

One of the great characters of all time.

Yeah.

Just an incredible, great.

Really great character.

So I've been playing Fortnite again, which is nice to be back on the horse.

Sorry, listener

for such a lengthy break.

I know you all love it when I talk about it every fucking week.

Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Other game I've been playing is Persona 5.

It is so good.

Yeah.

It is so smooth.

And I think I'd mentioned that I am not stressed this time because

the thing about Persona games that I've never been able to get on board is

Why

have all of this choice anxiety in a fiction world when I already experience it in the regular world.

Yes.

I'm not playing it that way.

Every time it says, take your time, come up in the corner, like the loading screen says take your time.

I ingest that.

I allow that.

And I'm walking around and looking at all my options and I make a decision, not based on the stats that it will give me, but rather on my interest in doing it.

And I am having such a peaceful playthrough as a result.

This might take me through the end of the year.

I don't know.

Chances are I will get immediately addicted to ghost of Yotoy and and drop Persona 5 again.

I can't wait to play it.

Me too.

So pumped.

Me too.

It looks so fucking awesome.

Yeah, it looks fucking great.

And I just have been thinking recently about how much I loved the first one.

I think it's going to scratch the itch that Shadows didn't.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think so.

Yeah, I think so too.

The gameplay is just a little bit better.

We all bounced off shadows.

I wish I didn't because I did like it, but it was just like you get to that point

where you're kind of not feeling like it's just not doing it for you anymore.

Whereas like I didn't feel that for a second in Ghost of Tsushima.

I was just like, this story is just like really propelling me forward.

Compelling narrative.

Yep.

That one was kind of awesome.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oh, great.

Another base.

I got to do this.

Yeah.

That's, that's Assassin's Creed.

Yeah.

And there's a thing.

Assassin's Creed.

I know I'll try out another one.

Yeah, of course, of course.

And they're masterfully made.

And there are eras that that i wish they would do because i would love to part of part of why i loved um valhalla so much was just i got such a nice light education yeah in some core concepts while also enjoying my my favorite time in history but there are other favorite times in history yeah like the 90s

dude can you imagine if it was assassin's creed 90s

like it'd be so crazy and it's like it's all like

but it's presented the same way that they present the information in these old ones.

So it'd be like a guy coming up and being like, I don't know if you heard what Bill Clinton, the president, said.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But there's a new job in Sarajevo.

Barbara Bush calling Bart Simpson like a rude little man.

Yeah.

Fuck.

Okay, I'm sold.

Let's do it.

Yeah, Saddam Creed

is good.

It's great.

You have to

assassinate an executive who's going to pass on the pilot of friends.

The guy's like, the guy's like, wait, wait, wait.

I'm here.

I can kill Osama bin Laden.

I can stop everything.

No, no, no, no, no, no.

This guy's saying no to Joey.

Yeah.

How are you doing?

Oh, man.

But yeah.

So anyway,

super enjoying these games.

So happy to be back online with a full-blown highest

wired internet connection that

Los Angeles will allow in my neighborhood.

And I'm having a blast.

I'm happy to hear it.

It's good times.

But I guess we've got guests.

We've got guests.

And you know what?

I think we should talk to them.

Yeah, we should probably say hi to them.

Hey, should we be a little professional?

Let's be...

Let's be well, first of all, we've got to be on our best behavior.

Yeah, let's be on our best behavior.

We got to be our best behavior.

We got to do really, really good.

And let's just trick them both into thinking that we're like both.

Well, I'll speak for me.

That I'm very smart.

This is an absolutely true story.

One time I was in Japan and I had my cell phone with me, but I was

following somebody around in the city and having a good time.

And then they locked me on a roof of a skyscraper because they were a crazy person.

That's a true story.

And my cell phone didn't have wireless access.

So this next ad is specifically something that I could have used.

in the past because if i'd had wi-fi i could have called somebody but instead i had no cell phone service trapped on a roof in Tokyo.

If you've ever been lost abroad or badly needed an internet connection with no Wi-Fi spot in sight, you'll understand what a difference a local SIM card can make.

An e-SIM provides an internet connection wherever you travel and saves you money on roaming fees.

That's where Saley comes in.

Saley is a new e-SIM service app brought to you by the creators of NordVPN.

Here you can choose from several affordable e-SIM plans in over 190 countries and eight regions.

With a Saley eSIM, you'll always have a connection when needed.

Download Saley once, and you won't have to install a new e-SIM for each country.

You can avoid scammers selling fake SIM cards outside of train stations and airports.

No more wandering around looking for a public Wi-Fi spot.

With a Saley, you're always connected.

They provide 24-7 support and you get a full refund if your device isn't eSIM compatible.

Download the Saley app in your app store.

Use code GETPLAID at checkout to get 15% off your first purchase or go to saley.com slash get played.

That's S-A-I-L-Y dot com slash get played.

I eventually got off that roof when the sun rose.

Comic-Con the Cruise is the ultimate vacation for fans of comics, gaming, and popular arts.

Popular arts.

The popular arts.

It's five days of non-stop fandom fun, panels, and theme parties while sailing the Caribbean.

Get ready to embark on another unforgettable journey where the world of popular arts comes to life like never before.

Meet and interact with fan-favorite celebrities and creators.

Enjoy intimate experiences you won't find anywhere else.

No convention floor chaos.

The stink, the sweat, the

wetness.

Well, there's going to be plenty of that because you're going to be on the open seas.

That's true.

It's an immersive community.

Artists' alley, panels, workshops, and late-night conversations that feel like the heart of Comic-Con, but more personal.

Also, there's daily cosplay events, gaming lounges, late-night parties, and exclusive panels you can't find on land.

Yar!

Yar!

Sail round trip from Tampa, Florida to Nassau, Bahamas on Celebrity Constellation, January 30th through February 3rd, 2026.

This four-day luxury cruise fuses fan-favorite elements of Comic-Con community with unique, interactive, and immersive experiences designed exclusively for fans like you, our listeners.

That's right.

It's the ultimate fan adventure.

And look, there's a lot of people that fans of our show might also be fans of.

Felicia Day, for example, Dominic Monaghan, Billy Boyd, they're from Lord of the Rings.

So many folks.

So, Doug Jones, who doesn't love Doug Jones?

Learn more and see the full 2026 lineup, including host Felicia Day and a star-studded roster of fantasy, sci-fi, and more at comic-conthecruise.com/slash get played.

Book a new reservation with promo code get played to snag $250

off your cabin.

Yar!

DraftKings Casino has your playbook for gaming action all season long.

Play thousands of popular slots for a shot at jackpots.

Over 400 million has already been awarded.

New players get 500 spins on Huff and more puff over 10 days.

Download the app, use code GET Played, and claim your spins after your first $5 wager.

Get in the game with DraftKings Casino, home of the largest jackpot win in online casino history.

The crown

is

yes!

Gambling problem.

Call 1-800-GAMBLER.

In Connecticut, help is available for problem gambling.

Call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org.

Please play responsibly.

21 plus.

Physically present in Connecticut, Michigan, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, West Virginia only.

Void in Ontario.

Eligibility restrictions apply.

New customers only.

Non-withdrawable casino spins issued as 50 spins per day for 10 days, valid for feature game only, and expire each day after 24 hours.

See terms at casino.draftkings.com/slash promos.

Ends October 5th, 2025, at 11:59 p.m.

Eastern Time.

All right, well, Heather, why don't we introduce our guest?

Okay, Matt, let's do it.

Okay, from the podcast 99% Invisible and W-B-U-R and their new series, Hidden Levels.

Hidden Levels.

What could that be about?

Well, I'll tell you, it explores the impact of video games on modern culture.

It's Roman Mars and Ben Brock Johnson.

What's up, guys?

Hi, guys.

Hey.

Hey.

Welcome.

Welcome to the show.

Welcome to Get Played, the show.

This is like, we're actually doing the show in a very serious way.

We sound so professional.

Yeah.

And normally, none of this tone is preference.

No, no.

Everyone is like this is false yeah yeah this is not true this is not there's an artifice here matt and heather have been replaced with an ai yeah they've got like just avatars doing the show i was just sitting with my fingers like laced yeah in the in that

little yeah

uh

uh gendo from evangelia i was being gendo from evangelia get in the robot yeah roman get in the robot

uh thanks for being here you guys so you guys have a new podcast series that's coming out You said the street date was October 7th.

Why don't you tell us a little bit about Hidden Levels?

Go for it, Ben.

All right.

Well, Hidden Levels is something that I started talking to Roman and his team about about a year ago.

Wow.

And it came out of this thing that I was seeing.

And look, this is going to be a statement of the obvious for you and your audience, right?

Like video games impact the world beyond video games.

Hell yeah.

And I think it's one of those things that people who are in gaming and who play video games, they know.

They see it all the time as they walk through the world.

They see things that they recognize as coming from their culture and the world that they inhabit when they play games.

But I think a lot of people who don't know video gaming as well or don't play games

don't see that stuff and don't recognize it as easily.

And, you know, I've always been a huge fan of Roman's show.

I make a show about the internet called The Endless Thread for WBR, this public radio station in Boston.

And always been a huge fan of Roman's show.

And Roman's Show,

which Roman will introduce better than me, is all about the, you know, the architecture and design in the world that you don't see, but is hugely important and has an impact beyond its creators.

So it just kind of felt like a match made in

a video game dungeon.

And we went from there.

It's neat to hear you say that

video games have become sort of like ubiquitously infused into culture because there was a time in certainly our lifetimes when that wasn't the case.

And now you will see video game language on like a billboard.

You'll see things that say like level up your workout.

And leveling up was once a thing that was in an instruction booklet for Super Mario Bros.

Like you would have to be like, you'd have to learn the vocabulary and then understand it on your television and tell your friends at recess.

And now these are just,

they're sort of like permafrost on reality now.

Yeah.

I mean, they're really, they're almost mundane and every day is part of the thing.

They're not like notable.

And that's sort of what, that's sort of the bailiwick of 99% invisible.

It's about, you know, the design that is part of the built world that becomes so ordinary doorknobs, sewer covers, you know, like, you know, and and all of a sudden like looking at them deeply and going, oh, there's a story in that.

Like somebody made that a decision there and they designed something and we are interacting with it every day.

And video games are just ripe for this because the way that they've infiltrated

real life and back and forth and they communicate.

And it's just, it's huge and it's rich.

And

we have six stories in this series, but there's like hundreds more like we could possibly do.

Yeah.

I guess so.

So

it's a six episode mini series, right?

And so there's six different stories.

Do they all sort of like follow like a similar trajectory?

Do they intersect in any sort of way?

Or are all these things kind of like on their own island as far as like impact?

I would say like it's a little bit of both.

You know, they, they, I think we found in making the series that they led into each other really well.

You know,

we have an episode about a very famous sports game that I think the sounds of which you will recognize.

And,

you know, the way that story ends with Boom Shakalaka, shall we say,

you know,

had us starting to talk about,

interestingly enough, just joysticks and the ways that we control these games.

And that leads into a story, for instance, about

the hardware that we use to control these games and how that hardware has itself influenced all these other parts of the world that are not specifically or exclusively about gaming.

Is that Roman?

Would you say that's fair?

It's not serialized, but it's

you can you can listen to each episode on its own, but because the world is so connected, you know, like they kind of talk to each other and it was it was becoming clear as we were putting them together, like, oh, this is the right order to speak, you know, to speak about them and, you know, just because it, you know, like it, right?

It set up those connections kind of nicely.

Right.

Like, you're, you're talking about controllers.

Um, like, I think before video games, people used to have to fly planes by pulling these different ropes.

Yeah.

And then they saw the joysticks and they were like, you know, this could make flying a lot easier.

Stay tuned.

Episode two, you're going to have the full story because

we trace, Emery traces the whole like evolution of a joystick.

Part the plane is involved.

Oh, really?

War games are involved.

Well, I was going to say, it's interesting that airplanes was the thing that

you pegged there because I was just thinking, based on using a video game controller and playing games where you have to fly planes,

flight simulator, or even

the Rogue Squadron, the Star Wars

flying game.

I kind of think I could fly a plane.

I kind of think I could just do it having never tried it.

Matt, have I ever told you the story of me flying a plane?

I think think you have, but you have to tell.

You have to say it now.

I was in Wisconsin and they have those like, you know, like roadside, like get in an airplane that a farmer owns and he'll take you on a quick.

I mean, I've never seen that myself, but

I understand.

If you go deep enough into Wisconsin, there's like, you know, the guys who have crop dusters and they're like, you know, 20 bucks for a ride.

And

so I got into one of these planes and was like flying around.

And the guy was like, do you want to, you want to fly the plane?

And I was like, Yes.

And so he let me fly the plane.

And then he was like, Hey, you're pretty good at this.

Crazy thing to learn while letting somebody else fly a plane.

And I was like, Yeah, I've played a lot of Microsoft Flight Simulator.

And he's like, Yeah, it's kind of the same thing.

I mean, those Microsoft Flight Simulator

folks are for real.

I feel like that's

a very

full rig.

Yeah, yeah, that's

The full rig.

I will say,

as much as we like flying planes with sort of like game input, I've heard that game controllers are really bad at submarines.

Yeah, I heard something about that too, actually.

I can't remember what it was, but I sort of do remember some story,

I think,

if I'm remembering the details correctly.

I'm not sure it was the controller's fault in that situation.

It certainly wasn't an airtight vessel with no escape.

Yeah.

Couldn't have been a reasonable thing.

There weren't human humorists there at all.

But it is fascinating.

And

I love the story that we do about controllers because,

and there's a couple of other stories that we have in the series that talk about this too.

And I think Roman said this earlier.

These things are talking to each other, right?

Like

you have this piece of hardware that's really created for

an actual massive mechanical machine that people use to traverse the real world.

And that inspires then a digital world.

And then that then again goes back and inspires the real world.

And I think that's the thing that's really fascinated us when working on this series.

That's really cool.

Was there anything?

I mean, I guess without spoiling any sort of particular story.

Oh, I mean, just tell us the top five moments of your upcoming series.

Just like, just give us all.

I mean, Heather, you sound like you already heard the second episode.

So, you know, I don't know.

I think somebody leaked it.

I don't know.

I guess, yeah, was anything in particular, like, like, particularly revelatory to you?

Like, were you like upon learning something, you just never would have even considered like this, like, you know, like a video game being that impactful in the modern sort of world at all?

Wow.

Okay.

Well, there's a lot for me.

I mean, I thought that the, I mean, what I loved about the joystick one, since we, since we're talking about it, is I, you know, I cover design a lot.

And so I think about sort of principles of design.

And there's a, there's this, there's this concept of affordance, like what a device

kind of telegraphs what you're supposed to do with it just by looking at it, essentially.

And so a joystick has an extremely just grockable affordance.

Like you know that when you want to go up, you push up.

When you want to go down, you push down.

And so there's that sort of thing.

And then in the world of flat screen touch screen games,

a flat screen has no affordance.

Like you can do anything with a screen.

And it becomes like less fun to me, you know, like in many ways.

And so, there's things like this, like, the principles of design that we were able to drill down on.

That even though I've done a show about design for 15 years, like, I've never really had a good example to describe that to an audience, you know?

Like, and so when we were talking about it in the editing and it was being reported out by Amory, like, you know, like we were able to discuss this and, you know, bring, so it's like, it's, it's just like, what was fascinating to me was how fundamental both like, you know, story and thought and theory and design

is part of all video games.

And it should be obvious because, you know, video games,

because I mean, they are completely designed from the ground up.

There's no part of it that you're like, there is the earth that I'm going to build on, and therefore I have to deal with the earth.

The earth is created by somebody's mind.

The air is created by somebody's mind.

And so everything is thought of.

And because of that, there's so many avenues to explore because everyone made a decision about every pixel inside of a video game.

And that is really, that was just like lit me up in sort of every story in so many ways because it just is like there's like super smart people making decisions and thinking about things.

And you just and what's so great about it and this sort of 99% invisible part of video games is you don't necessarily have to feel the author.

You just feel immersed.

And that means that they're doing a good job in a lot of ways.

This is why I particularly enjoy animation over live action is because there's so few accidents in animation.

Like so much of it is just curated choices of design and intent.

And that's also a lot of video games, although now there's a lot of emergent play that isn't particularly the designed purpose of the game.

Right.

And that sort of stuff will like float to the surface.

I had a side question, which is you talking about the

looking at an object and knowing what its purpose is.

And I think this is probably maybe something you've talked about on your podcast before, but if it isn't, I'm super curious.

What is,

what do you think are like,

what is the most,

how do I put this?

What's an object that you think is very poorly, not a touchscreen, but that you look at it and you don't know what it's supposed to do.

And it's supposed to do one thing.

For example, when I look at a carrot peeler, I am absolutely not thinking

that's so that I can scrape it on a carrot.

I was going to say pickle picker-upper.

So like I feel like we're in the same headspace somehow.

You know those things where you like, you got to like, like, the tongue.

Yeah.

It's sort of like it looks like a syringe on the back end, and on the front end, it looks like one of those claws in the gaming, in the actual, you know what I'm saying?

I actually didn't know that that was what that was.

Today we learned that.

I thought that was for like a turkey.

I've seen that in a kitchen, and I didn't know.

I also think that's a good idea.

I just said you're like scratching her back with it,

picking my pickles.

I also think, and this is not because

our show is

for and made by stupid people.

Yeah.

Toilets are not, like, they don't necessarily say what they are.

You wouldn't necessarily know that you have to do that.

Right, because you wouldn't be like, oh, I should go over there and empty into the water.

Yeah.

Like, you would look at it and you would think, is this a kind of bathing apparatus?

Do I put my foot in here to clean it?

Or you see water and you would, if you had not,

you would just be like, I'm trying to drink this.

Yeah.

I mean, my cat thinks that.

My cat thinks that.

Yeah.

For sure.

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

Romania.

If the toilet has 40 buttons on it,

then it gets really dangerous.

And you know, I'm going to push all of them so I can learn exactly what the buttons do and then be horrified by the results

every now and then.

Just like the elevator.

Yep.

I think the sort of plurality of smart devices have terrible affordance and you don't know how to use them and you have to read, you know, like instructions on how to get them.

And one of the things that makes things, I mean, like, I would argue, not to disagree greatly with the carrot peeler thing.

If you had a carrot peeler, I think you'd quickly learn that it peeled.

You know, like you would see it and go, here's what I'm handy.

One way or the other.

One way or the other.

But like, I like to think about this as like, you know, when you, you know,

I think everyone's had this experience when you've lived in a house for maybe 20 years and you still don't know which knob goes to which burner on your stove.

Like that's a type of weird bad design that is like, it's like you shouldn't have to think about it.

Or like if you have a bank of light switches and you have some kind of mnemonic as to which socket it goes to.

Like those represent

design fails and I think a lot of us take those things on as like, I'm so dumb I can't remember what light switch goes to which socket.

But really those are bad design decisions and they don't represent, you know, they don't sort of like exhibit good design that would that would sort of like you, you would normally have to set that up so you wouldn't get confused, and that's the way to do that.

So, would you say that, in terms of video game design and then real-world design, that your interests lie in more skew morphic design choices?

Or are you do you find that trying to translate, like looking at an icon for a tape recorder on a screen doesn't tell you the story that you are supposed to push that button in order to make the recording start?

Because also, you're you have dissociated so much from what a tape recorder is.

Like,

how would you do you have a way to make game design?

Yeah,

I honestly don't.

But I mean, I can tell you, like, you know, I think these sort of, you know, these

kind of things like skew morphisms that sort of lead people because they, because you know the real world analog and therefore you know how to do them inside of a digital space, you know, they have their role, especially during the transitional phase of getting getting used to a digital space.

But I think at this point,

there is like, there's no point in putting like an analog, you know, reel to real in front of my kid on an icon and have them have that make sense to them.

So, like, that I think that design language, you know, just evolves and changes over time, for sure.

And maybe, maybe this is a different kind of thing when we're talking about design, but one thing that I'm amazed at,

you know, I'm

45, right?

So like I, the first games that I played played were arcade games and Nintendo games.

And I remember games that were, they took forever and so long to figure out how to use, how to, like, move the player, how to move the sprite, whatever.

And just like, um, you know, I think of a game like, well, this is a new example, but like Cuphead, if you know that game.

And like that game, I don't think, I think I've still not made it past the first level of that game.

Like that's a hard, that's a hard game.

Yeah.

But it's sort of, I feel like it's calling back to some of those games where you, you just really, it didn't sort of push you forward.

The game didn't pull you forward in the way that games do now, where like you're immediately immersed in the space that you're playing in and you're just getting these directives one at a time, like

press X to pick up the gun.

You know what I mean?

Like there's a way in which the game is communicating with you as a player that is, I feel much better now than it used to be, where they used to be kind of like esoteric and hard to get into in some ways.

And now it's like, it's kind of dummy-proof, some of the way that the games communicate with you as you like move into the environment, if that makes sense.

Sorry.

I was going to say, so much literacy for video games in general comes from your

predetermined knowledge of video.

You have to, like, I don't think somebody could pick up like The Last of Us 2, for example, having never played a video game before, and be like, this is easy to me.

Because there's so many things you sort of do have to know, like

that the left joystick moves your person and then the right joystick moves your field of vision.

And that's like you're sort of learning to sort of pat your head and rub your tummy at the same time kind of with some of these things.

Yeah.

But like if you know how to play a video game, chances are you're going to know how to play a different video game pretty easily.

Yeah.

Yeah.

There's also a lot of vestigial stuff that has just become the vocabulary of games.

Like, for example, there's ammo in barrels.

Yeah.

And it used to be.

well, but I like, if you look at like.

It's not real life, by the way.

That's not how that works in real life.

But it comes from a time when you're playing these side-scrolling fighting games and there isn't a lot of information on screen.

And perhaps you're walking through a city and there are trash cans rendered in pixels on the screen.

And so you know, oh, I can punch those trash cans.

And when you punch the trash cans, sometimes you'll get a food item that will help your your character get their life back.

And so you'll punch a trash can and a turkey will come out and you'll be like, oh,

now I can get better.

But all of that legacy has then gone all the way to effectively Last of Us Part 2, where you're like smashing shit in the environment to try and find ammunition for your character.

Good medicine.

In a way that you absolutely never would interact with reality.

And all of that is sort of

an assumed knowledge on part of the developers that is then,

you know, like you can't,

like, people can watch any movie as their first movie,

like, generally.

Yeah.

Sure, some that probably shouldn't be your first movie.

Right.

But you can, you don't have to, like, there's not a ton.

Like, dogs watch movies now.

There's all the TikToks of like people, like, dogs watching the Lion King and under and following it.

And I'm like, how do you-

Are they following it?

Yeah, because they, they're, like, getting the, they're getting Simba's arc.

They are definitely getting Simba's arc because when when

who's like Scar?

Scar Scar's on screen.

They'll bark at Scar because he's hurt somebody earlier.

So the dog is following it.

And I'm like, how does the dog understand what an edit is?

How is it

like the lion is over there and then the lion's over anyway?

All this is a digression to say that nine out of ten dogs hate Scar.

That is true.

That is true.

That's all true.

I got lost.

Scar a cat.

Scar's a cat.

Right.

Yeah, they all hate that.

Dogs don't like that.

They hate dogs.

They hate all the lions.

they hate him.

So we talked a little, I mean, so let's, let's get into like your just, your histories with gaming in general.

We got a little bit of Ben's there, but let's get into it just a little bit deeper.

Where are you guys at with games like today, I guess, is a good jumping off point.

Yeah, what's your rank in Fortnite?

Man, barely, barely, barely survives five minutes.

I mean, Fortnite, my experience in Fortnite, Fortnite's one of those games where

I think it's gotten better at matching, right?

Like, I used it when I first started playing Fortnite, and maybe I've gotten better too, hopefully, but

when I first started playing, it was like two minutes of me screaming and then starting over.

Do you know what I mean?

Like, I was just like running and hiding and then starting over.

I will say that I put, you know, really my gaming

is these days about connection.

I really like talking to my good friends across the country who I don't see see anymore.

You know, they have their own lives.

I have my own life.

They, you know, they're parents.

I'm a parent.

So one of the ways that I connect with them is we play games together and

we learn the lore together and we, you know, we spend a couple hours every week doing that.

And that's really wonderful.

And

it's really less about the grind and more about

talking to each other.

And, you know, we've basically had group therapy sessions, you know, talking to each other as we've gone through life challenges.

And

a lot of what we do these days is a sort of second screen activity or you're doing a couple things at the same time.

And I don't know if that's bad or good, but I just know that like my buddies and I, we talk every week and that's that's meaningful to me.

And so I play Helldivers.

I play

we just started playing Diablo 4.

I

we played like every sniper elite because one of my buddies is just obsessed with sniping and that's what he loves to do.

I played Generation Z.

I liked that game a lot because of the crafting and just like moving through that sort of post-apocalyptic fighting robots world, which is, you know, that's a classic trope and it works.

But mostly I just do it for fun.

I mean, we've tried to play weirder, odder games, but we have a kind of split.

Half of the group is like, I just want to shoot guns.

And half of the group is like, no, let's do something weird and interesting with games.

And so sometimes we fight about that.

But generally, it's for me, it's just a place to connect and a way to connect and blow off Steam.

Yeah.

And Roman, am I correct?

You're a bit of a lapsed gamer, would you?

Yeah, I don't know if I was ever really a gamer as such.

I mean,

I kind of, I don't do much gaming today.

I kind of do passive like tower defense type games when I'm listening.

I have to listen to a lot of

audio for my job.

Yeah.

And so I need something that doesn't really require good timing, you know, that is something I can do while I'm doing something else.

And so I love tower defense games.

And I play some fitness games like on an Oculus because I like to box and stuff like this.

And I injured my back boxing for real when I punched stuff, like solid things.

Trash can, were you trying to find a turkey in a trash can?

No,

I wish,

but there are no turkeys anywhere.

I've tried.

Just wait a couple months.

There's going to be turkeys everywhere.

That's true.

That's true.

So I love like supernatural.

I love doing stuff like that.

It's pretty fun for me.

But my history is, it's strange.

I was involved in the development of some of the first voice chat in gaming in the 90s.

Wow.

And so I had a friend who I went to college with, and he developed this app called Roger Wilco.

It was a standalone application

that was behind your Baldur's Gate or your

Doom or your Tribes.

And

it ran on a a 288 modem you could it it was super clean and beautifully done and i was the first q a tester for the company and so i played a lot of early multiplayer games like that and um and um and in fact selling that it was funny it was like selling that company is what paid for my three-year internship in public radio that led me into being a podcaster

wow i should know that talk about learning the lore cool

so yeah so our early so i used to test games so i played games like hours and hours with Roger Wilco running underneath it just to see if it works and if all the technology works.

And so that's what I did for

mid-late 90s.

From that time, do you remember a game that you were like, this I like, it didn't feel like work kind of, that you were like, I'm actually enjoying this one.

It's tribes.

I was a sniper in the renegade mod of tribes and I could come onto a server and I could clear it because I just killed.

I would just annihilate and people would just leave as soon as they saw my name show up.

And I began to have to like come in with different names so that they would play longer.

But yeah, if anyone knows tribes, that was like, that was, that was totally my game.

I would get into that one beyond.

I love

it.

Mendel, I was a genetics PhD student, so I went by Mendel.

Usually

if you're if you're this good at sniping and you don't come on as Mendel, I love the moment on a server when people are like, oh shit, Raspberry Ghost is Mendel.

Raspberry Ghost is Mendel.

Yeah, totally.

I used to frustrate a lot.

Everyone excuse me of cheating and stuff like this.

It was really like,

I'm just good.

I'm just great at this stuff.

You're just good.

You can be Mendel.

I want to, because I also, I love to box.

I'm also a boxer.

What is your

VR boxing app of choice?

I do a supernatural.

I like that one because I like supernatural.

I like the music.

It's mesa.

It's not, and I've done, what is the fight for?

I don't know.

There's another one that's actually a video game game, like that when you have an opponent.

I've played that one too, and it wears me out.

That's great.

And

they're mainly like fitness games.

They're not so much like, or fitness apps.

They're not so much just like a boxing game so much.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But they're probably gamified, right?

Which is another example of how the world changes

or the video game world changes

the rest of the world, right?

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah, no, it really helps.

It really is motivating for sure and teaches you patterns and stuff like that.

And it's good.

It maybe just sort of gets me moving.

I don't quite have the constitution to sit and play a game anymore.

That's just not how I'm wired anymore.

Even when I watch TV, I walk on a treadmill most of the time.

And so

fitness gaming is sort of my version of just moving and playing games at the same time.

To the tower defense aspect of your gaming, though, I don't play a lot of those games though, but like I could see like a game like that being a good second thing you're doing while like, you know, listening to uh, you know, uh, I have edited uh my own voice for a long time too, so like to whatever is getting me focused on not hearing my own voice and uh, you know, uh, how horrible I sound when I when I speak, uh, I'll

enjoy another uh activity as well.

But I get I get distracted because the things the games that I pick are going to be like

Hollow Knight Silk Song or like Elden Ring or something where I have to be so focused on the actions of what's going on.

But like a tower defense thing, it's like a set it and forget it type of thing.

What's the appeal for your for you there?

Yeah, I mean, it's basically that.

It's like you can, there's a little bit of timing involved usually as it gets to the upper levels or whatever, but like your precise sort of

you know, Metroid style timing is not required, you know?

Yeah.

And so it's just sort of like you have to kind of be a present.

And I just find that it actually kind of helps me focus because I can drift listening.

I have to listen to hours and hours of people talking, like in terms of like raw tape of people talking.

I listen to a ton of podcasts and I listen to a lot of books on tape in quotes for my job to prepare for interviews.

And

I used to do this when I worked at WBUR.

Sorry, WBUR.

I worked at WBEZ in Chicago.

And

I used to sit at my desk and one of my jobs was listening to audio documentaries all day long.

And I sit at my desk play solitaire.

And people would walk by.

And I actually had a manager sort of make fun of me, like complain that I was

playing a game all day instead of doing my job.

And it was like, I need this to do my job.

Like, I am listening to this stuff.

And if I was just listening, I would doze off.

I would not, I would lose focus.

And I, so I started using games then to sort of like to sort of keep my ears open, actually.

I've only ever been able to play video games at one job.

I guess if you don't count this one, but we don't play video games when we're doing this.

We could, we should.

It'd be more interesting.

I mean, people are constantly asking us to do the thing that you're saying right now, which is

why don't you guys live stream your games?

And it's for me, it's that speaking while gaming is almost impossible.

Yeah, like, like,

like, I can't, I can't play a guitar and talk.

I can't have another avenue of perception, too.

I just don't need it.

It's terrible.

But

I worked at a restaurant in their office

taking reservations.

And so it was a nice Michelin star restaurant in town.

I'll tell you where it was afterward.

And I was.

Burger King.

It was at Burger King.

And I had just,

yeah, I was with

who it's that,

the chef's name, I think, is Peter Pickle or something.

But I would bring my switch to work and like I was like, I'm really testing the limits of what I'm allowed to do here, I think, because this I'm very obviously playing a video game, but my job is to answer the phone and put in a reservation on a computer if somebody calls to make the reservation, right?

And then I'm calling people confirming reservations, but apart from that, I'm sitting at a desk for hours.

There's not another facet to that job.

So I was like, I have to do something or I'm just never going to come back here.

So then you're just trapped not doing anything.

And so I started to bring my Switch to work.

And also, I'm working at night, right?

The restaurant closes at 11.

So from like 9 to like 11 o'clock, nobody's calling to make a dinner reservation.

I'm just chilling and getting paid and playing Breath of the Wild.

It was like, actually, I think about that time a lot.

And how

I had less going for me.

You had it good.

But that was good.

That was really, really, really nice.

Isn't it funny how memories like that can just, of playing games can just be so powerful and

sort of like remind you of a time in your life?

I feel like that's...

I don't know.

I just felt like when you were describing that, I know exactly what you mean, where you were like, maybe it wasn't the best job or the best situation, but like 9 p.m.

to 11 p.m., man, you were free to

do just hanging out, but I couldn't leave in case somebody called, right?

They couldn't call me off because what if somebody

did want to call or something?

They can't have somebody else

doing that.

Yeah.

They're doing something more important.

If you were VR boxing, maybe that would not fly.

But if you're like

switching off and you're sweaty.

Yeah, if I had brought my Dance Dance Revolution rig to the office,

probably not a good idea.

Are you familiar with the VR game Super Hot?

Yeah.

It's a game where you're like John Wick basically like dodging like, or, you know, I guess Neo more like in the, you're, you're a Keanu Reeves type character in this game, and you're like dodging bullets and like throwing knives and stuff.

That would not be great for

that's a very fun game.

I played that one for sure.

Rules.

It is so, so fun.

Um, uh, Ben, we do have to talk about this.

Your name on the on the chat right now is Battle Toads, Ben.

Battle Toads Ben.

And we did talk about this a little bit.

I did ask you who your favorite Battle Toad is, and you did say Zit, And that's the only correct answer, I think.

Wart's tough.

What's the other one?

I don't remember what the hell.

I remember

what's that?

Isn't it wart rash?

Rash and zit.

I was about to say one of them was piss, and it's not piss.

Like, if it was piss, you'd buy it.

You're sort of like, I guess one of them is pissed.

You would not buy it because you were the child.

They're all skin conditioning.

And your parents definitely wouldn't buy you a game where it's like

zit

and rash, and piss.

Yeah, Battle Toads, much more.

Yeah.

Yeah.

They should, this is a free idea to anybody making a video game then.

As soon as you name your character Piss, I'm buying the game.

Doesn't matter what kind of game it is, I'm there.

But I was so excited when I was, you know, I've recently discovered the show and have become a listener.

So

I love what y'all do and the joy with which you do it.

And I, but I, but you have like a, you have like a deep, you got a deep catalog.

And I discovered that you have a Battle Toads episode, I think, or the show has a Battle Toads episode.

Yeah.

I'll send it to you.

I think it's behind a paywall, but I'll get that over to you.

Oh, my God.

I would love to listen to it.

Because that was one of those games that, again, like, there was a period of, and I should say, like, I tell a lot of people, I've told a lot of people, I think I've said this to Roman, when I was growing up, my parents wouldn't let me have a Nintendo.

They wouldn't let me play video games until I was, you know, maybe 12, 14 years old.

So I was always, I was the kid who would come over to your house and you'd be like, hey, let's play outside.

And I'd be like, hey, man, take me to the basement.

Show me the Nintendo.

And like, if you have snacks, that's cool.

And if you want to leave me there, that's also cool.

I just need, please, I, I got to have it.

So your hands gripping tighter and tighter around his neck.

Show me where it is, man, please.

But like, but Battle Toads was one of those early games that I played.

And,

and I recently, I, I guess I was like poking around about this and realized it's, it's also also like connected to Double Dragon, right?

Like there was a combo version of the game, I think.

There was Battle Toads versus Double Dragon, where they all teamed up, or Battle Toads X, Double Dragon.

Yes, you're not incorrect.

This is a game.

Fair.

And so like, but what I remember of Battle Toads was it was a super hard game.

I mean, I was, you know, I was maybe nine, but like it was such a hard game.

And it was, again, one of those games where you, you, you, I never progressed past, there was like a there's a level where you're you're like on a surfboard or maybe it's more like it's like you're you're you're jumping over the the the walls

and the walls splash for like a half second before they arrive on screen yes um and and i just that's one of those games that has like a sense memory for me where i just i i can i can i can remember the

you know, the Doritos dust on my fingertips and the sweat of like trying to get past that level.

And I don't know if I ever did, but I loved that game.

It was a great game.

It's it's funny that

talking about your parents not letting you play video games reminds me of a very sort of semi-famous

in-gaming circles far side comic from the 90s or like maybe it was late 80s where it's a kid playing video games and the parents are daydreaming of a career in video games.

And the joke is that'll never happen because like, that's what the far side is saying: is, oh, that'll never happen.

These guys are all idiots.

And now

you can make so much money

playing video games that the comic doesn't make sense.

Yeah.

Like, it doesn't, the joke doesn't work.

You can make a lot of money.

You can affect politics in a very particular way.

Yeah.

It's all very interesting.

Yeah.

Yes.

Sometimes too interesting.

Yeah, it's a little too interesting.

Like, actually, everybody calm down.

Stop, actually.

Yeah.

Well, guys, before we get you out of here, I guess

I don't know if this is necessarily spoiling or could spoil, but I have

another question

just about video games and their impact on society at large.

Yeah.

Good or bad?

One-word answer.

Bye.

Just

no, no, I think like I, well, what I would say is,

so my son, I have twins who are eight years old.

My son is eight years old.

He is,

he's, he's, he loves Minecraft.

Yeah.

He loves,

he, he loves the Harry Potter game.

I have mixed feelings about, I don't know, I have a mixed feelings about the creator of Harry Potter, but my son loves that game.

I think that

games

like Dungeons and Dragons, for instance, which inspired a lot of video games, they do teach you to, number one, solve problems

and number two,

like have a safe space to try to solve problems and fail and try again.

And I think that they can lead you, especially in the case of things like Minecraft, they can lead you to be really creative, right?

I also think that they are, you know, I mean, this is going to maybe sound ridiculous to some of your listeners because who, you know, whoever bought the latest, you know, PS5 Pro or whatever, but like they are also like relatively cheap.

Like you can, you can access games relatively cheaply.

And,

and I think having an interactive form of entertainment

that you can, that is, you know, relatively democratized, both in terms of playing, but also in terms of building now, like the fact that you can build games more easily,

that's, that's a good thing.

I think where it gets problematic is when

we,

you know, I think when we allow any sort of tech company to

not have any kind of

consequences for, you know, whatever, like fomenting hate or, you know, and I think, you know, game companies have gotten better at policing this stuff, I guess.

And, you know, maybe I shouldn't even use the word policing.

I think it's complicated.

No, for sure.

Yeah.

But I think like, you know, it's, it can be addicting to you.

And like, that's a dangerous zone.

And so, you know, limiting your, limiting your time, I think is for me, that's an important thing.

But ultimately, it's like so much of the technology we use.

It can, it can be a positive thing.

It can be a negative thing.

It's just a tool and it's a technology.

And we just have to be intentional and careful and thoughtful and caring in the way that we use it and in the way that we use it together.

Wow.

That is the most thoughtful thing ever said on this show.

Yeah, truly.

Public radio.

What are you going to do?

Isaiah C.

I don't know.

I did think one of the frogs was called Piss really.

Yeah, we had to.

And my favorite battle to the zip.

Thank you.

Same show where we're like, toilets look like you should drink them.

But I'm curious, like, Roman, what do you think?

I feel like...

Oh, I think good.

I don't know.

I don't really have.

I feel exactly the same as you, but I think the dial is more towards good.

I also just think that you can't sort of argue that the world would be a better or worse place without video games.

You just could argue.

It would be a completely different world without them.

And that's really the sort of the sort of the end of it.

It's just like.

They're a huge part.

And I think that in addition to you mentioning there actually are careers in video games as evidenced by us being on podcasts now,

it kind of trains you to think in ways that

are perfect for the modern world in terms of problem solving, in terms of just like quick thinking and dexterity and the sort of idea of if-then decisions and complex decisions.

And

I think they're great.

I don't know.

I have a hard time thinking.

I do think that the social aspect of them that can sort of cause issues is the same social aspect that makes social media a problem, that makes you know, like tabloids a problem.

Like everything.

When you get a bunch of people together, they can get together for nefarious ends as well as great ends.

And so that's just part of it all.

Well, guys, that was, I really enjoyed talking to you guys.

Thank you so much for being here with us today.

Why don't you guys plug the show again real quick and then we'll get you out of here?

Sure.

The six-part series is called Hidden Levels.

It's about how video games affect the world, and it's a co-production of 99% Invisible, which is my podcast, and Endless Thread, which is Ben Brock Johnson's podcast.

And it's going to come out wide on October 7th.

Yeah, we hope you'll listen.

Let us know

how much we got wrong.

Just kidding.

Check it out wherever you get your podcasts.

And

guys, thanks so much.

Yeah, thank you so much.

Thank you.

I really appreciate it.

Yeah, thanks, y'all.

It was great to be with you.

I liked talking about it.

Yeah, that was nice.

I liked it a lot.

I was super.

I that I like genuinely feel like that was a good thing that happened.

That was great.

It was great to just actually legitimately hear good insight.

Like against smart people just going off the dome.

Yeah.

And I'm like very, very interested in checking out their show Hidden Levels.

I can't wait to hear that.

Yeah.

Two great guys, two fun guests to chat with.

Wonderful time.

Wonderful time.

We should do it more often.

I like it.

Yeah, the only reason we got away with it is because, you know, Nick wasn't here.

He threatens the guests.

What the fuck you do?

He takes him into the hallway and does a shoulder check.

You think you're better than me?

It's tough.

Let me tell you something, buddy.

I gave Burger King five forks, all right?

We've had guests walk right before because Nick comes up and shoulder checks them.

Yeah.

And it's like, he'll just whisper in their ear, Chick-fil-A.

And they're like, what the fuck was that?

Earthworm Jim was going to be here.

Yeah, Earthworm Jim.

And

he saw Nick in the hallway.

He goes, oh, hey, how's it going?

He pulled his worm head out of his body.

Yeah.

And just exposed his worm body.

Yeah.

His naked worm body.

Leaving behind his sort of humanoid buff suit.

And he put him outside in the sun and he got all dried up.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And all he said to him was sweet green.

Yeah.

He said, sweet green.

I kind of didn't get that.

What do you mean?

I don't know.

Look, we do have time for a segment real quick.

Should we do one?

Let's do it.

And you know what?

I think it's time we go back to the well with Segma Dreamcast.

Oh, no.

And I think let's just cast a banger real quick.

Oh, no.

I don't know people, man.

I think we got this.

Because, look, there's

I think we got this.

Okay, okay.

We're going to cast.

The film adaptation, the fictional

film adaptation, though I wish there was a real film,

of Final Fantasy VII.

Shocked that there hasn't been a real film announced.

Yeah.

Shocked.

Not like the one that we got.

Advent Children.

Advent Children.

Well, no, I mean, like, I'm surprised either a CG or live-action Final Fantasy VII film has not been.

Yeah.

Like, there's been no whispering of it.

We're getting a fucking Zelda movie.

Yes.

I thought Zelda would be so far behind.

Cloud Strife.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Right.

It would make sense.

It would make a great, you know what?

It'd make a great limited series.

It would.

It would.

But maybe we have some say on who gets to be in it.

Maybe, maybe it's because these people are so beautiful.

They're like, well, we can never have actual humans in this fucking movie.

Nothing could ever measure

the actual beauty.

Why don't we start?

Okay.

Let's just start with Aerith.

Aerith.

Aerith, depending on the localization.

Aerith.

Who would play Aerith in a movie?

I don't know any human actors.

I don't know anybody who's famous.

I don't remember faces.

So who's your thoughts on this immediately?

Like,

who would you think?

Well, let's think about the character of Aerith for a second, right?

She's sort of the, she's like a healer, a magic user.

Hunter Schaefer.

Hunter Schaefer, sure.

Honestly, yeah.

Hunter Schaefer is beautiful, right?

Absolutely.

Like, that,

I mean, right?

Oh, yeah.

No, 100%.

If you, if you pull up Hunter Schaefer's Wikipedia, she's kind of got like a

she's got she's got like the look, kind of.

I guess she's that she's a little bit more, at least in this photo, a little bit more sinister looking.

Let's see if Shaunsi might make a great Sephiroth.

No, because that's like an Aerith face.

Yeah, no, yeah, totally.

Yeah, she could, that's Aerith.

Yeah, I could see it.

Yeah, with some, some brown hair.

Why not?

Okay, so there's one.

You got Schaefer as Aerith.

Who else?

Who else?

Well, I mean,

that's cast.

We got that.

That's.

Oh, that's done?

I mean, well, because I'm trying to think of like, who else, who else could do it, right?

Like, cause like

Aerith is sort of like, she's like the bubbly one in the crew, right?

So, like, you maybe want somebody who's like,

I could see it being, gosh, well, I could see this actor for a different character.

I have Margaret Qualy stuck in my head, but I think Margaret Qualy might be a fun Tifa.

Okay, how about this?

How about this?

I know right now she's playing an aggressive character.

Uh-huh.

But

Caitlin Deaver as Aerith.

Caitlin Deaver is as Aerith could be good.

Currently, currently playing Abby, but

looking against type.

Look at that picture there.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I can see it.

That's Aerith, right?

I could see it.

Look at this.

That's Aerith adjacent.

Caitlin Deaver.

Let's get it on the board.

Why not?

Yeah.

I mean, that could be Aerith.

Yeah.

I think it's got whatever it is.

They just have to have the ability to

get to the vote

to convey that they could heal

somebody.

I think these are some good options so far.

Why don't we move on to Tifa while we're on it?

Tifa.

Now, this is where I think we could get somebody like a Margaret Qualey in here.

Yep.

Yep.

I think that's a great, a great fucking call.

Yeah.

Margaret Qualy for Tifa is

kind of an unbeatable choice.

I don't know anybody who would be better than her for Tifa.

Gosh, there's got to be somebody.

I mean, like, because she's great.

I think I could just see her getting a little buff.

You know?

And obviously, this is the American film.

It's not like the proper...

You know, these actresses aren't Japanese

and should be,

but we're playing the Hollywood game here.

We're not playing

the actual game.

I have a pitch here, and I think I have to go back to Tifa or to Aerith for a second.

Specifically, because of her performance in White Lotus Season 3, I think we got to put Lisa on the board.

I think she's a real cutie.

Okay.

I think we got something here.

Okay.

And also, now our movie is going to make a billion dollars because she's the most famous person on earth.

We got it.

Okay.

Okay.

We're cooking with gas here.

This is good stuff.

Market quality for

Tifa.

I'm trying to think of who else could be a good comp for Tifa.

I'm realizing now that, yeah, they're just like, I'm thinking of the same four actresses that are in everything.

Okay.

And it's just like, it's not, that's like,

one of my, some fucking suit, some fucking stuffed shirt.

No.

Right.

Maybe we'll come up with somebody a little bit later.

Let's move on to

Barrett.

I think I have one here.

Okay.

You got to hear me out on this one.

It's going to seem crazy because we know him.

I think we got to get my boy Iffy in here.

We have to get Iffy Whiteyway as Barret.

He's the buffest man I know.

Yeah, no,

I have no.

And you're not going to tell me he wouldn't crush it.

He's a dad.

He has the pathos to do it.

Yeah, I know.

I could I can't think of why if he would be bad at this role at all.

And he definitely has the um physical structure uh to to be barret so i would yeah i mean like it's hard that's a that's a great that's a great call it's got to just be my boy iffy but you also know that they're gonna that that it's hollywood right yes they're gonna cast a

they're gonna want the rock they're gonna want the rock they're gonna want the rock as barrett they're gonna want you know

i don't know who the rock's kind of here's the thing he could do it

Yeah, he could do it.

I just like they gotta, they have to at least, if I'm making the movie, they gotta see my friend if he's taped.

Well, no, I think if he is the right guy for it, yeah, because he's gonna bring a little humor to it, too.

But we're playing, we're doing the thing they do in the studio where they just like put the names up on the thing and then they say a bunch of celebrities and then and then they think they've done their job.

Yeah, like, like, for example, I know who uh red 13 should be.

Well, who should be red 13?

Let's move on.

should be benedict cumberbatch because oh

100 correct because that's who they're gonna put as red 13.

yeah if okay if benedict cumberbatch is red 13 i have the the casting

the casting for kate sith and i think it's the most exciting casting of the whole movie okay okay who's kate sith matt berry

is Matt Berry, and there's no there's nobody else that can do it.

He's going to fucking crush it.

It's going to be so great.

Or, you know what?

David Tennant.

David Tennant would also be a good Kate Sith, wouldn't he?

But I could see,

I could hear Matt Berry's voice coming out of it.

And I think that's a lot of fun.

Okay.

I think it's great.

He's just got such a wonderful voice, and I want to hear it

no matter who he is.

You know who else could be

Red 13?

Would be Gary Oldman.

Gary Oldman would be great.

And, you know, because of the character design, he kind of looks like Scar from the Lion King.

I am thinking of,

what's his name?

Jeremy Irons, I think, would also bring a certain, but he also, we have to remember that

Red 13 is also, canonically, a teenager.

Yeah.

He changes his voice differently.

So the teenage voice,

the, uh, what, one of the sprouse twins or something?

I don't know.

It's Cumberbatch.

It's Cumberpatch doing both.

Yeah.

They just pitch him down.

Yeah.

That is a handsome picture of Jeremy Iron.

Yeah, it definitely is.

Looking at a picture of Jeremy Iron, and he looks like he is made of iron.

Yeah, he looks like a fucking movie star, this guy.

The next character on your list is impossible to cast.

It's impossible to cast.

I had the Hollywood answer, and it's not great, but it's close.

The Hollywood answer is Austin Butler.

You get him in a sort of.

You mean Masters of the Sky?

Yeah, Fade Rotha from Dune.

Wait.

Elvis.

Yeah, Masters of the Sky.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because he sort of has...

Yeah.

I guess if I'm putting it poetically, a beauty like no other.

He is a beautiful boy.

He's definitely a beautiful boy.

But

what about actual Dune?

Timothy.

What about Timothy?

Timothy,

he's just a little bit more beautiful too, isn't he?

He's just a little bit more angelic-like, and you have to have somebody that looks,

I mean,

yeah, he looks a little too much like a haunted doll in these pictures, unfortunately.

I don't know if it's it.

Yeah.

Oh,

I think, no.

I don't think he works.

I don't think

Ranch has done

a very important Google search, which is Timothy Chalamet Blonde, and it is unfortunately not doing it for us.

Yeah, it's not, it's not Butler.

Butler is.

imagine Butler with the hair.

Yeah, could be.

It could be.

It could be Butler.

You kind of want, like, you wish, this is the conversation they're having in the studio.

Yeah.

They want, they wish Colin Farrell was 30 years younger.

Yeah.

Somebody with a sort of angular face who's just like gorgeous.

Colin Farrell 30 years younger.

Yeah.

And they

got Cloud.

Yeah.

They've got him.

But who do we got?

I mean, who's like the.

It's Austin Butler, who's a little bit, he's a little bit too square.

Yeah, yeah.

He looks a little bit like Polygon Cloud, but he he definitely gives

he gives sorrow while also giving beauty.

Who are those boys from that ranch?

You watched that the summer I turned pretty?

Oh, none of those guys.

None of those boys that don't got it.

I don't know who.

I know nothing about the show.

I just have heard about it.

It's like a people like to talk about it.

Because it's about people, it's about these people fucking and stuff and everyone's being creative.

Yeah, no, they don't got it.

No, no, no, no, no.

They're a little too Amber Crombie.

I think you're right.

I think Austin Butler is

the best we got right now.

Out of curiosity, because I can't really recall his face.

What about the guy who plays Lestat in Interview with the Vampire the TV show?

Oh.

Because he's a pretty boy.

How pretty is he?

Is he pretty enough?

I think he's pretty enough to be our next character.

Oh, yeah.

You're right.

I think he's got a little too much going on.

Yeah, he's got, he's a little too mean looking.

He's a little too mean.

I think you put a little silver wig on him.

And he's him.

I think he's Sephiroth.

Oh, okay.

What is this gentleman's name?

Sam Reed.

I wish he had a more interesting name.

Well, I mean, he, but look at him.

Yeah, no, that's.

I mean, when he's playing lists.

Did you do a clumps and do cloud and Sephiroth?

No.

No,

he's more Sephirothy than he is Cloud.

Yeah.

He looks too.

There's something wrong with him.

Yeah, yeah.

Who else could be Sephiroth, though?

I have a take.

I don't have an actor.

Jack Black.

I don't have an actor in mind, but I just have a vibe, a particular vibe I'm going for.

It either has to be.

You know what?

Actually, no, I do.

It's Tilda Swinton.

Tilda Swinton.

It has to be either a beautiful man or a beautiful, like, angular, like.

yeah.

Hold on.

Hold on.

I think we got something here.

Wait up, though.

Because you say Tilda, and then I thought Kate Blanchette.

Oh, Lydia Tarr.

What if it's Kate Blanchette?

Kate Blanchette as Sephiroth.

Kate Blanchette as Sephiroth.

I'd be fucking scared.

Yeah, no, that's good.

Sorry, Samri.

We just learned about you.

It doesn't work at all.

It's really funny, but it doesn't work.

I think she's got it, though.

Like, she could get there.

I think it's like, it's not maybe the quite right look, but there's something about how beautiful Sephiroth is that I think it's a beauty that could only be trade by either be portrayed by the most beautiful man or a woman.

It's yeah, because it's the Peter Pan rule.

Yeah, it's like you have to have somebody who is so, who is so beyond

who is the most beautiful person alive?

That should be Sephiroth.

I got another pitch for Tifa.

Okay.

Allison Williams.

Okay.

I don't know who that is, but go for it.

I'm just thinking about her and Megan, too.

She did punching and stuff.

I think she could do it.

Great.

She's Tifa.

Great.

Tifa.

That works, Allison Williams.

It could work.

It's all

good.

You know, I'm also going to say, just to say it, because it's a horrible thing, but it's true.

But Tifa is extremely well endowed.

So what about that girl?

You got to pull up a whole different list now.

No, what about that girl that is like everybody hates right now because of the jeans ad?

cydney sweeney that girl is she what is she

it's the choice they would make i don't know what she looks like yeah i mean it's just it doesn't really quite work yeah no she looks too

she's getting

for a she's buffed for a movie where she plays like a wrestler right now but she looks too mean like she's got mean girl eyebrows yeah she can't she can't be tifa yeah no she's not tifa oh man sorry and it's all because of your jeans your stupid little gene commercial nice try who is the most beautiful human being being alive?

Because that's who plays Sephiroth.

Who is it?

Oh my God.

It's Jillian Anderson?

Jillian Anderson?

From X-Files?

Yeah.

That was your answer to who the most beautiful person alive is?

I think I'm right.

Look, here's the thing, Matt.

I love you, and I love the show, and I love Jillian Anderson.

I don't think she's Sephiroth.

I say

you're in the silver wig.

I gotta see what she's.

I think Sephiroth is.

I think Sephiroth is like a K-pop star who,

you know, who is like,

who is already, because he also carries himself like he's the, like he is the greatest gift to man.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So you need somebody with so much presence and attitude and beauty that I feel like it's got to be a

like whoever the K-pop dude is

who inspired the K-pop dude from K-pop demon hunters.

That's the guy.

It could be V from BTS, which Ranch has pulled up.

I mean, yeah, that looks, that guy looks like him.

Oh, this guy could be Cloud.

That guy could be Cloud.

Oh, my God.

He's beautiful.

How is this the first time I've seen this guy?

Oh, my God.

He's Cloud.

Okay, so that's Cloud.

Googled him with the blonde hair.

Okay.

He's cloud.

Great.

Okay, so that's cloud.

And then look, maybe this Sam Reed guy's Sephiroth.

I mean,

in that picture of Sam Reed as Lestat, he does have all of the Sephiroth energy.

Yeah.

Now, imagine him with a really long, pointy sword.

Yeah.

All right.

I guess.

I guess that's our cast.

I guess that's the cast.

And that's this week's Get Played.

Our show is produced and engineered by Rochelle Chen Ranch, Yard underscore, underscore sard on social media and Twitch.

Our show's music is by Ben Prenti, BenPrentimusic.com.

Our show's art is by DuckBrigade, DuckBrigadesign.com.

Check out our merch, hats, shirts, sweatshirts, and more at kinshipgoods.com.

And check out our Patreon, patreon.com slash get played for ad-free main feed episodes, our complete back catalog, including how did this get played, and our premium DLC episodes, and our exclusive show, Get Animated, where we're watching...

Oh boy.

Oh boy.

We're watching Elfin lead and just so you know this week's episode was tough yeah you maybe don't need to watch it yeah but you can listen to us talk about how we wished we hadn't yeah if you've not watched elephant lead elphin lead yet maybe don't don't

but you can listen to the episodes yeah and we'll tell you when it's safe to watch again yeah check that out at patreon.com slash get played and you can uh find all this of course in the show notes and i'll do it for this week's get played And you know what got played this week?

We did by how informative and professional our guests were.

Yeah, we we did.

We really got played.

You know what?

Something to think about going forward.

Let's conduct this show with a little decorum from now on, a little respect for ourselves.

What do you say?

I wish I hadn't been naked, covered in spaghetti sauce for all that.

That was a hit gum podcast.