Gaming in the Modern World with Ben Brock Johnson and Roman Mars

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All right, Ranch, it's just going to be me and Heather, but we're just waiting on Heather to get here. And so hopefully she arrives any minute now.

How are you doing? You okay? I'm okay. Okay.
I used to eat a bunch of spaghetti. Oh, that's good.
That's good. That sounds really good.

Yeah, it was good.

Can you guys see me? Heather, Jesus Christ. What the fuck's the matter with you? Wait, wait, wait.
Can you see me? Heather.

Can you see me heather yes can you see me we can see you oh my god you're nude oh my god you can see me you're nude and covered in kidney

why oh no why are you lying oh no i'm no oh no you can see me for real are you doing a bit no i can see oh my god oh no i mean i'm averting my gaze because i'm polite oh no i thought i thought we were invisible today i i i just i didn't read the email i didn't read the email clearly and i i had to get here fast so i thought we were invisible

Oh my god, even if we were just 99% invisible, oh no. That would be better than I walked here.
I walked here.

Oh my god. I'm sure the people of Los Angeles took it in stride.
Oh my god, yeah, nobody was looking at me.

Oh fuck. Oh my god.
I can't believe I came to work naked.

And you know what's actually more upsetting? What? What? What? That was Ranch's leftovers. That's a ranch's leftovers.

Randy's going to eat that later for dinner. Now Ranch got no dinner.
Okay, well, hold on. Let me explain.

I know I'm covered in spaghetti sauce, but I thought nobody could see me, so I thought nobody would know that I ate her leftovers.

And I got it all over me, and I'm like, there's no point in cleaning up because I'm invisible. Let me ask you, can I ask you an honest question? Oh, my God.

I'm humiliated. Can you see the poop on my legs?

Oh, my God. I wasn't looking.
I wasn't looking at you. Oh, my God.

I was just so confused.

I thought nobody could see the poop on my legs. So I was like, it's fine.
I'll just get that later.

oh my god heather oh no heather i was gonna i'm gonna do you a kindness

oh no you gotta go home and take a shower we will never

we'll never speak of this again i'll do you this kindness this will never come up again oh yay okay okay

okay okay thank god nobody notices that i'm naked and covered in fettuccine alfredo

911

We talk about gaming in the modern world and interview Roman Mars and Ben Brock Johnson from their podcast Hidden Levels this week on Get Played.

Welcome to Get Played, your one-stop show for good games, bad games, and every game in between. It's time to get played.
I'm your host, Heather Ann Campbell, along with my fellow host, Matt Abadaka.

Hello, everyone. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the premiere video game podcast, where this week we have guests.
That's right, guests, but they're not here yet. They're not here yet.

They're going to come later. They're coming in later.
They're coming in hot. They'll be coming in hot.
They're going to come in spicy.

We're short one Tiger Weiger. He's out for the episode, but

we're going to do our best to do a real adults interview of these people

the way that Matt and I have very rarely been put to the test. That's right.
I kind of wish I had worn,

I don't know, like a turtleneck or something. We're both in Oasis shirts.
We're both wearing Oasis shirts, which I think really sold the vibe. Or really sells the vibe.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's like, oh, these guys are approachable. Yeah,

they're both wearing Oasis. They're just a couple of lads.
Yeah, they're just, they're just,

they're here for it. They're mad.
They're mad for it. They're mad for it.

Do I detect that they're mad for

We're mad for it. Yeah.
We're mad for it. Man, can you? What is...
I wonder if there's a phrase that Americans say that in the UK they make fun of us, but also lovingly try to emulate the phrase.

Like it could be something like out of the blue. All the words I can think of are a big bummer.

Yeah.

I did say American. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what it's.
Yeah.

I mean,

gosh, I feel like it's T-minus, like,

always, like, two minutes before something like this, like, comes up in my brain nowadays.

But when I was in Italy, I was sitting across at a restaurant from this English couple who then we befriended because our server kept bringing us limoncello shots, and he got us fucked up.

And we just hung out with this English couple for four hours. Love it.
It was really, really lovely.

But it got to a point where

the guy in the couple was like, all right, I got to ask you, what the fuck's wrong with your guys' country?

And I was like, it's interesting that you're asking me this of all people. I was like, yours is not so great either.
But I was like, I don't have a satisfying answer for you.

It is weird to be both in a country that is constantly shouting about how it's the best in the world and anywhere else you go in the world, people are like, wow.

And I also think it's very telling. Yes.
That nobody else in the world is creating their own version of TikTok. No.
I mean, sure, China has

a different social media app, but like

France isn't like, uh-oh.

We have to create, we have to create our own version of TikTok because the algorithm is poisoning the minds. Theirs would be too fancy.
It would be. It'd be too fancy.

You know what? We're going to French TikTok.

Every video is that same guy. It's just one guy.

What's the deal, Mick Flip?

He's just doing all people's stuff.

Wait, no, no, I was just doing like random TikTok startups. I see, I see.
I was not citing that awful, awful man.

We're doing a good job on the show today. We are? We're going to do a great job.
Is that the you're setting the bar? I'm setting an intention. Okay.

We're doing a great job on the show everyone's gonna be happy uh-huh uh because i think look i know that like nick's sort of like what's going on outside

you feel that is that a tank rolling down the fucking street

it's a car with heavy bass okay i see but it does it is so heavy that it is through several layers of soundproofing in a in a in a an audio recording facility and it is still vibrating the windows yeah yeah i thought i was like i'm glad that you said something because I thought I was gonna suffer in silence.

Wait, no, you said something.

I think maybe it activated me.

I've lost one second of memory.

Something about a car with really loud bass feels nostalgic. It feels like now everything is of such a different caliber and

tension level that when you hear somebody just rolling down the street with like big bass, you're like, oh, yeah, okay. Yeah.
That's nice. Do you think it's the Doof Warrior? What's that?

From mad max fury road is that his name the guy that plays the i didn't know yeah the doof warrior doof warrior doof warrior i didn't know

it could have been him could it could it could have been him on his rig

it could have been him on his rig now that's a movie can you imagine if aliens invaded and it they sounded like uh party base

that most people wouldn't even come out of their houses to like see what was happening

yeah yeah must be uh red foo and sky Blue outside having a blast from LMFAO. Okay.
Nick and I know are the ones that know that. Yeah, there's

I'm struggling here because there's a lot of

stuff that Nick knows. Yeah, say it.
And we can stare at his empty chair.

It's been a long day

without you, my friend.

But I'll tell you all about it when I see you again. Why are you telling me about the podcast, Matt?

Hey, buddy, why are you telling me that?

Look, I'm excited to talk to these guys, but we have other stuff we got to do. We do.
And one of the things we do on the show is we ask a question. It's an important question.

We talk about video games and we ask questions. This is a video game podcast.
First and foremost, it's the premier video game. Video game podcast.
There's other ones.

There are other great ones that I really like. Oh, yeah, for sure.

I could shout them out if I wanted to. But I could.
I'm going to keep it to myself. Okay.

Because, look, we're trying our best. We're trying our best, and we're coming for you, actually.
Yeah. So you better watch your ass.
Yeah.

And I don't want to hear nothing about what you guys trying to stop us. Okay.
You understand me?

Listen here and listen good.

Just know that if you've got a video game podcast, so do we. And we're doing ours.
Who is this guy? Is this you or is that a guy? It's actually just me. Okay.

Me trying to be like a tough guy. Okay.
It was good. I was nervous.
Ranch is back, by the way. Yes, ranch is back.
I was not here last week. Ranch is back.
Did you have fun wherever you were?

You don't have to say where you were or what you're doing. No, I did.
I was in the bay to see family and then they went to Napa. Oh.
Did you eat any crab? No crab. Okay.
Did you stop on any grapes?

No. I was too scared to get hurt.

No grapes, no crab. Sounds like a great trip, Ranch.

Bring you in just to see.

Great thanks, Ranch. Loved the story.
Could you tell it again?

Such a jerk thing to do.

So unnecessary. To also ask about one food and no follow-up question.
Wait, yeah, so you didn't do the one thing I thought you did?

That sounds like a nice time. Looked like you were with a fun group.
Yeah, it was very nice. That's great.
Shout out to the two people I know in the group. They know who they are.

I saw one of your friends at a party. Oh, really? Oh, Alexis.
That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Has come up on this show as well in the past for

her

Animal Crossing Island. Oh, yeah.
Yeah. Had a really nice time.
Yeah.

Chatting with Alexis.

But look. Look.
We're not here to make veiled threats to the other video game podcasts. We're not here to

criticize Ranch. Harass Ranch about what she did and did not do on her trip.

I guess I just, for me, if I'm thinking about it, if if I was doing the trip, I would have done things a little bit differently. That's it.
Yeah, for sure.

I would have eaten crabbed and stomped grapes.

Every grape in the tri-state area would be fucking flat. Crabs running, grants stomped.
Yeah,

they would be out of grapes when I was in town. I'd be like fucking Donkey Kong and Donkey Kong banana these fucking grapes.
Gently setting the lobsters free, eating crabs.

The lobsters, I got no beef with you. Yep.
The crab meat's kind of where it's at, though, right? Yeah. Yeah.
The crab, like, lobster's good, but it's, like, sort of fake.

It's fake good. It's fake good.
Crab is better. Crab is good.
Do you agree? I agree. Yeah, crab is good.
Lobster. That's kind of not good.
Fuck a lobster, you say. Fuck a lobster.
That's right.

We've talked.

We don't have time to talk about seafood either. Even though I could, I love it.
I spent a lot of my life not eating it. Didn't know I liked it.
Oh.

And so now I'm kind of, every time I can make up for lost time, I get like the craziest seafood thing I can get. Okay.
Like big pasta with clams or something. Oh, Oh, yeah.
That's good stuff.

I can't, I can't eat clams in a soup or in a pasta. I can eat them on the side.
I can't handle shell in broth or shell in noodles.

They do, unfortunately, like come with trash that you can't do with anything. Do you can't eat it? You can't eat the shell.

So you got to like sort of put your hand in your pasta, kind of, and like scoop it out and then put the shell on the side.

I mean, I would never want a soup that also had bones just laying in the soup.

That to me, though, if I'm ordering like a chicken, like with like a chicken broth with like chicken in it, and I got a little bit of bone in there, to me, I'm kind of like,

okay, they made this. This is fresh.
Sure, but not if every single piece of chicken had bone. No, no, no, no.
Well, that's what the deal is with a clam and a soup. Yeah, clam is bones.
Clam is bones.

We're not here to talk about that. We're here to talk about video games and ask an essential question.
And that question is:

what are you playing? Are you playing Hides me, the Resident Evil Werchant. And I'm offended that you guys didn't ask me to sit in for Nick.

Oh, no, I thought we sent you an email. What?

At least.

Which address?

RE4MERCEN at hotmail.com? I don't use that one anymore. You don't use Hotmail anymore? Did you get the other one? Any other ones? RE4MERCH at gmail.com? No, I logged out of that one.

Illegal activity. Oh, okay.
did you have god does yahoo still exist yahoo exists okay so oh wait wait

maybe we sent it to yahoo at yahoo.jp so i didn't send it to that one that's my email so you got yahoo at yahoo.jp

so it's specifically like the japanese like server yeah

yeah yeah yeah yeah well i mean like you know canonically That is where I'm from. Aren't you from like some sort of like a Spanish pastiche? I'm in Spain.
Yeah. And I work in Spain.
I see, I see.

But I was technically created. I guess you're right.
In Japan. That's right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. My mom and my dad.
I was hoping you weren't going to go down this way. I

didn't work at

Camcom.

Okay. And they fucked in the lobby.
They fucked in the lobby. Where all great ideas are born.
Walk into a building. If you don't have an idea in the lobby, walk out.
Yeah. That's what I say.
And

if you have an idea, it is my understanding that you have to fuck in the lobby to get the idea heard. Fuck in the lobby like my mom.
How many days? Sort of like you're giving birth to a concept.

I feel like I'm.

The truth is, man, I'm pulling it like I'm not from Japan. You son of a bitch.
My birds didn't fuck in the lobby.

Everything you just told me was lies.

I was goofing. I was goofing.
No wonder you got yahoo at yahoo.j. Yahoo, yahoo.jp.

Well, sorry you're not able to fill in for us today, Resident Evil Merchant.

No, it's okay. You got a third chair.

I think he's going to show up, though. If he shows up, he shows up.
No, I mean, Weiger. I think he's going to

show up. So

I feel like Resident Evil Merchant, I feel like you've got to

hang back. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think you got to go. Because imagine how hurt he'd be if he showed up and you were sitting in his chair.
And he doesn't like to play musical chairs.

He always sits in the same chair. He always sits in the same chair.
He's just not here yet. Okay.

All right. I think you hit freeze value.
Yeah, you just got to believe us. I do, because you're my friend.
That's right. And we wouldn't lie to you.
You would never lie to me.

Now you got to go to sleep, actually, because Santa's supposed to come tonight. Is that true? I think so.
He doesn't come if you're awake, though. That's right, it is.
You got to go to sleep.

It's September 25th. It's Christmas.

That's right. You got to go to sleep.
Light on decorations is here outside. Yeah, I think the spirit, the people just aren't feeling it.
Yeah, because of everything.

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Oh, Madam Badugga. Yeah.

What are you playing? I'm glad you asked. Thank you so much, Resident Evil 4 merchant.
I got a couple things to report. First of all, I went to Halloween horror nights at Universal Studios.

I love to hear it. And here's something you got to know about me.
Obviously, I'm a bit of a coward. I get a little scared, okay?

Oh, that's right. When we played our worst games that we could possibly play, yours was a scary game.
Mine was scary. I don't like to get scared too much,

but I do like to engage with horror.

You know, like I love Alan Wake 2. I love Resident Evil 4, Silent Hill 2.
Like that stuff. I like horror movies quite a bit, but I get scared.
And so I went.

with my wife, my sister-in-law, and two of my brothers. Okay.

And it was, it was just a real sweet time. Just a bunch of siblings hanging out.
It was really cute. All right.
It was a really nice time. Okay.

There were two mazes that I got to talk about that, because they're based on video game IP. Whoa.
Which is unbelievable to me as somebody who's been going to horror nights for many years. Yeah.

We got a Fallout maze

based on the TV show Fallout. Right.
But a TV show based on a video game. And the Five Nights at Freddy's maze.
Okay. Based on the movie, based on the game.
Right.

Let me talk about the Fallout one first. Okay.
The Fallout one was not particularly scary to me. Okay.
Because the show is not scary. Yeah.

So you're sort of like, how are they going to make scares in this?

It starts with the,

if you'll remember from the show, like the massacre within the vault,

where the ravagers from up above come and they, you know, start killing people or whatever. It's that's like the big set piece of the maze, which is really well done.

The sets look really, really great. Cool.
And it looks like you're like in the vaults.

The jump scares in that are like good guys like killing bad guys. So like they kind of like,

oh, surprise. Like, and like they, then they kill like somebody in front of you or whatever.
So like you're kind of like, what the fuck? This is so crazy and so cool.

Cause like it'll be like a guy running at you and then the ghoul or something will like take him out or whatever. So like that, so it was really well done.

I liked it. It just wasn't like very scary.

There were scarier mazes, certainly.

But my favorite maze of the night was

the first maze we did, which was Five Nights at Freddy's. And if you remember, when we talked about the movie, none of us liked it very much.
Yeah, it's not a highlight of our year.

And I think we talked about the game a little bit. Maybe we talked about the game when we talked about the movie? I don't remember.
I don't remember.

I played the game a little bit. Yeah.

And I was like, this is fine. Yeah.

Maybe we did a whole episode on the game. I can't remember.

The maze was fucking incredible. Oh, wow.
It was so great and had legitimate scares in it. Like, the, because

they had some of the characters like i mean they had all the main sort of animatronics and some of them were like they were mostly puppets i would assume but some of them looked like they were standalone animatronics but then they had like people in sort of black hallways wearing fully black like you know leotards or whatever um

and they were puppeteering the animatronics to make it look like they're coming to get you

and so that was really really awesome and it's like you're sort of following the story of the the movie i guess but the thing that i thought they did so well was replicate moments from the game where like you'll turn a corner and you'll have been captured or you know you're face to face with freddy fazbear or whatever and it'll make the like sound like from the games and i was like that's so cool that they were able to like put that spin on it versus the sort of inert like yeah movie yeah and i know there's a second one coming out and i've already made this decision.

I'm going to see this movie. Okay.
Because, like, I didn't care for the first one, but what if they get it right in the second one?

What if they got it right? They might get it right.

It was, that was everybody's favorite maze of the night.

And it was just crazy that there were two video game mazes in general. Yeah, for sure.

I'm also still playing Silk Song. With Ranch, I want to check in with you about it because we haven't had a chance to talk about it yet.
I'm still in Act One. I'm about 31 hours in.

I'm still in act one.

I think I've done as much as I can side stuff wise, where now I have to progress and beat

who is known as the last judge, the boss that is blocking you from entering the citadel. And so far, I have not done it yet, but I've gotten close.
Ranch, where are you at in the game these days?

I think I'm at 40 hours. Okay,

and i have beat the last judge wow um wow you dropped this it's your gamer card by the way ranch is more of a gamer than me i suck at this game i'm gonna quit don't quit i quit ranching

you know what being a gamer is not a measure of quality it's a measure of uh interest

you can be the worst ever at a game, but you are still a gamer. I basically am.
I fucking suck at this fucking game. And like, Matt,

you're terrible to this game it sounds like you you can't do what the game wants you to do even to get out of act one you're really bad at it but that doesn't mean you're not a gamer don't ever doubt yourself you are a gamer even if you never beat this boss which honestly i'm pretty sure you won't I think I will.

I just know, because I know what I'm doing wrong. I'm getting greedy.
Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And you, with this boss, this boss has like a chain with like a, you know, what's that called?

Like a mace on it. And sometimes it, uh, it'll hit you and it's getting you for two damage i have six masks and i have a uh a boon that gives me a sort of uh critical hit uh

mask yeah the skull yes i have that and i'm just getting greedy and i'm going too fast and i think this boss wants me to slow down and like really take my time and because there's that

All of her attacks are, I think, completely avoidable.

You could probably do it if you were really good at it without taking any damage. Because she has very obvious signals, too, that she's doing.

Where she'll lean in a certain way, and that means she's going to start tossing her damn

her mace. Okay.

But

if you are standing right by her,

you're going to get hit. You're going to get hit.

So you got to find your windows. I'm going to do it.

Regardless if anybody sitting to my left believe in me at all. I do believe in you.
I completely believe in you. I'm going to do it.
I believe 100% that you're a gamer. I believe in that you.

What the f?

Can I tell you how I beat The Last Judge? Please.

Don't tell me Mark did it.

Hell no.

It did take me. That was like the longest boss.

The run back for that, I think I did at least 100 times. Okay, yeah.

I got so familiar with the movements. Yeah.

I was playing during a Zoom recording. So I had

all the audio off. Yeah.

And I beat it during the Zoom recording with no music and no sound. Oh, interesting.

And for some reason,

I feel like the no sound really helped me.

Yeah, you weren't getting psyched out by her really great music. Yeah.

We've talked about that with Elden Ring before, where it's like you turn off the sound and suddenly the game is easier. Yeah.
Yeah. Because you're just like, you're not focusing on how scary

Mogue is.

And then someone else talking. Yeah.

I don't know. It just worked.
It just worked right. I'm going to try it tonight.

I'll try it

while my wife's asleep.

Also, I don't know if you've gotten the tacks, like the thumbtacks. No, I haven't gotten those yet.

I gotta, maybe I'll just look at a guide to see if I can get those because I have the ones you can put in the air. I've been laying those down.
Yeah. And you get to second phase very quickly.

You save some for second phase, and it does a lot of work. Okay, I'm gonna go back and get those then because I did do something I didn't think I would be doing.
I was like farming for resources.

Like I found like a rose, like a little patch of area near the,

what's it called? Like the halfway house or something. Oh, yeah, with all the.
Yeah, there's like a lot of them. There's a bunch of little guys that drop.

You get like maybe like 60 rosaries a run or whatever, which is not a ton. But I was just like, I'll just like devote some time, you know,

to getting this. And then I bought a bunch of stuff because like some of the some of the stuff's not cheap.
Like you want like a new mask shard or whatever, it's like 500 rosaries or whatever.

And the rosaries are, you lose them quite a bit. So I cleared out a couple of stores, but

I got to get these tax. Because I've heard about the tax, and everyone's like talking about the tax.
And I wasn't, I haven't, I haven't gotten them. You got to get the tax.
I got to get the tax.

I'm also playing Super Mario 3D Land on my

recently modded new Nintendo 3DS,

which I have here in my backpack. I want to show you actually.

Because I bought a

snap-on case for it because mine had a little bit of cosmetic damage, but otherwise, like the screen is really nice.

Look at this. It's gorgeous.
Yeah, that's really cool. And it doesn't add much health.
Oh, it's like metal. Yeah, it's like metal.
It's a metal case. Yeah.
It's really nice. Holy shit.

Can I turn it on? Oh, yeah, you can turn it on. Uh, my background is the Metal Gear Solid uh three snake eater 3DS port.

Um, it's gonna take a million years to turn on because uh because it's so modded, because it's modded. Um, but I was messing around with the um virtual boy emulator.
Yeah, that's some good stuff.

It is, it's really, really good, it's so good. Yeah, I really, I was really loving it, um, but yeah, it's a it's a nice little device, and I think perhaps

Switch 2 notwithstanding, I think that the new Nintendo 3DS

XL is the most premium device Nintendo has ever made. I think your screen is better than mine.
You think so? Yeah, I do. I do.
I have an IPS screen.

I don't know if mine's IPS. I have an IPS screen, and

I think this is a better screen. I think the default.

Look, I understand that the blacks are blacker and all that in the IPS, but the 3D effect, which is very important to me, just looks better on the original screen.

Yeah, I recently got this because I didn't have a.

There's so much viewing angle on it. I didn't have one.
I only have

a 2DS Excel and I don't have the 3D effect and I missed seeing the 3D. It's so good.
And it's really, really great.

I've been taking pictures of my cat and my wife with the 3DS camera and it's very fun. Yeah.
Yeah. And I try to then show them to my wife and she's like, very nice, Matt.

That's nice.

But yeah, so I've been dipping in to 3D land quite a bit and I forgot. That game is a fucking banger.
It is. It is so goddamn good.
And I'll probably try to finish it. I've 100%ed

the first two areas already. So I'm going to be flying through it.
Yeah. But that's it for me.
Quite a few things to report, but that's it. That's a lot to report.
What about you, Heather?

You know, other than still celebrating the news that the Virtual Boy is returning, which, again, we haven't really covered on the show, but I think that's because the sort of crater left by the announcement was so big in my life.

We're all still trying to put together like bits and pieces of like just how we're feeling. I cannot believe that I'm going to have another virtual boy on my desk.

It's the craziest possible outcome of 2025. Yeah.

So that being said, that aside, Matt, did you know that it had been 13 weeks since I played Fortnite?

This is,

dare I say, a fucking bombshell.

It makes sense based on

what I know. Yeah.
I

I've not had internet access for 13 weeks. And I've only been able to game on the go or game offline.

And so I finally have internet access again. And the first thing I do is, of course, boot up to Fortnite and say hi to my friends.
Yeah.

The game is so fucking good.

But

right now.

Fortnite is so buggy that it is like they don't have money. Did they add the characters from a bug's life?

I wish that that was the case, Matt.

There are so many known bugs.

The hammer from several seasons ago is back in the game. If you equip the hammer and you use the hammer on a console, there is a huge chance that you won't be able to run anymore.
Huge chance.

That's crazy.

Fortnite. Like a game that is making these guys...
what $10 billion a year, if not more.

If you drive a car and you're on console, the buttons are remapped and they're all fucked up. You can't break, you can't lean out the window and shoot your gun because that's a bug.

There are so many bugs that I uninstalled Fortnite, reinstalled Fortnite on a console to try and fix these bugs. All the bugs are still there.

I cannot tell you what it's like to wait 13 weeks to play Fortnite, hop online, see my bros. Yeah.
We're still having fun, but that all of us are like, fuck, the fucking hammer's fucking broken again.

Like, all of us.

And what are they going to do? They got to fix it, and they don't care. Daft Punk is coming to the game next week.
I did see this, and that has me very, very excited. Daft Punk is coming to the game.

I'm, I'm dressed as Saitama and I'm running around as One Punch Man. I don't know if you've heard this.

about the One Punch Man collab because of course I haven't talked about Fortnite for 13 weeks.

So there are a ton of characters in the game in Fortnite skins that are representative of godlike or god or god-near beings, Superman, you know, like Thanos, like people who are Thor, I think, is in the game, like people who are effectively impervious.

Apparently, the deal that they made with the creators of One Punch Man would not allow Saitama to be in the game if he was Saitama because he can't get killed, he can't get injured, he can't take a bullet.

Like, he's the whole hook with him is that he's level 100 in a world of 99.99s, right? If, like, if you're fucking Superman, he still wins.

If you're Superman and Goku, and like if you're everybody, he still wins because that's the joke. Yeah, so he flickers like he's a television, uh, like he's uh

scotstatic

Because Saitama is playing the game, but isn't in the game.

Superman is in the game. Superman is Superman.
Yes. Hatsuni Miku is Hatsuni Miku.
Yes. She has a gun and is running around.
Maleficent. Ariana Grande.
Ariana Grande. Captain Hook.

All there, all on the island. Do you think they're going to do Elphaba and Glinda?

I wish they would, but they probably won't because I can't imagine the creators of that musical being like, what this needs is to that we see these characters holding a shotgun

the emote would be so good oh

their art it would be awesome it'd be so good to win and then drop that emote would be so good just as good as i did i still think the most disrespectful emote is jake sully's emote it is so

funny to win a game and then curiously look at a flower it is so fucking funny very disrespectful um

but so there were a lot of complaints because when saitama Saitama dropped, people were like, why the fuck is he flickering?

Like, he's got like digital artifacts and sometimes he's a little transparent. And it's because he's canonically not in the game.
He's playing the game. And I love it so much.
Yes. I love it so much.

I couldn't love a decision by a company more, a company.

Then that Saitama isn't in Fortnite. He's playing Fortnite.
Yes. That's to me like how when they added Sora

to Super Smash Brothers that the fact that there's a canonical reason for him being there is very, very funny. Yeah, it's good.
Yeah. They wouldn't even want to be like, yeah, he's just in it.
Yeah.

There's like, no, there's a lore reason now. Yeah.
They had to think about it. Yeah.
They almost didn't allow.

People are like, but Goku's in the fuck. Yeah.
Goku can get knocked. He gets fucking...
Goku gets fucked up. He gets fucked up.
Superman has died in the comics. Yeah.

Batman dies all the time it'd be such a bummer if though like one of the times superman dies he gets shot with a gun

that's really funny to me that saitama's in it and he's and he's not in it that is great because everybody else is in it except him he's playing you know i was playing it a little bit when it launched on switch 2 uh-huh and was like this is a perfectly fine way to play oh yeah yeah yeah uh but i just i I go through phases with it.

I'm not like as dedicated to it as you are. But like when I get in there, I'm always having a good time.
It's a good game. So I was playing that for the first time in forever.

The Power Rangers are the collab.

You can get into the Megazord. If you do it with a full squad, all of you do the poses as like the transformation, and then you're in the Megazord and you each control a limb,

which is rad. That's awesome.
Because that's how it would work in theory. It's like, if you're not red,

then you're working a leg. When I was a kid, Power Rangers was like the most important thing to me in the world.
And I thought it was going to be important to me forever.

And I still like my memory of it, but I haven't

checked in on it.

Yeah. It's well, it's still good IP.
It's great. Their masks are great.
They have lips.

That way they can kiss. So that's a good collab.
That's super fun. Megazord's fun to play as.
Rita Repulse is in the game. And it's her voice.

Yeah.

She's like, she's also bribing everyone to attack the power rain. Like, if the, when the Megazord shows up, she'll be like, use my boons and I kill the Megazord.
And you're like, yeah.

One of the great characters of all time. Yeah.
Just an incredible, great.

Really great character.

So I've been playing Fortnite again, which is nice to be back on the horse.

Sorry, listener, for such a lengthy break. I know you all love it when I talk about it every fucking week.
Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Other game I've been playing is Persona 5.

It is so good. Yeah.

It is so smooth.

And I think I'd mentioned that I am not stressed this time because

the thing about Persona games that I've never been able to get on board is

why

have all of this choice anxiety in a fiction world when I already experience it in the regular world? Yes. I'm not playing it that way.

Every time it says take your time, come up in the corner, like the loading screen says, take your time.

I ingest that.

I allow that. And I'm walking around and looking at all my options.
And I make a decision, not based on the stats that it will give me, but rather on my interest in doing it.

And I am having such a peaceful playthrough as a result. Yeah.

This might take me through the end of the year. I don't know.

Chances are I will get immediately addicted to Ghost of Yotoy and drop Persona 5 again. I can't wait to play it.
Me Me too. So pumped.
Me too. It looks so fucking awesome.

Yeah, it looks fucking great. And I just have been thinking recently about how much I loved the first one.

I think it's going to scratch the itch that Shadows didn't. Yeah.
Yeah. I think so.
Yeah, I think so too. The gameplay is just a little bit better.
We all bounced off shadows.

I wish I didn't because I did like it, but it was just like you get to that point.

Where you're kind of not feeling like it's just not doing it for you anymore. Whereas like I didn't feel that for a second in Ghost of Tsushima.

Like, I was just like, this story is just, like, really propelling me forward. Yeah.
Compelling narrative. Yep.
That one was kind of awesome. Yeah.
Yeah.

Oh, great. Another base.
I got to do this. Yeah.

That's, that's Assassin's Creed. Yeah.
It is Assassin's Creed. I know I'll try out another one.
Yeah, of course. Of course.
And they're masterfully made.

And there are eras that I wish they would do because I would love to.

Part of why I loved Valhalla Valhalla so much was just I got such a nice light education yeah in some core concepts while also enjoying my my favorite time in history but there are other favorite times in history yeah like the 90s

dude can you imagine if it was Assassin's Creed 90s

like it'd be so crazy and it's like it's all like

but it's presented the same way that they present the information in these old ones so it'd be like a guy coming up and being like I don't know if you heard what Bill Clinton, the president, said.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But there's a new job in Sarajevo.

Barbara Bush calling Bart Simpson like a rude little man. Yeah.

Fuck. Okay, I'm sold.
Let's do it. Yeah, Saddam Cream 90s is good.
It's great.

You have to

assassinate an executive who's going to pass on the pilot of friends.

The guy's like, wait, wait, wait. I'm here.
I can kill Osama bin Laden. I can stop everything.
No, no, no, no, no, no. This guy say no to Joey.
Yeah.

How you doing, snip?

Oh, man. but yeah.
So anyway,

super enjoying these games. So happy to be back online with a

full-blown highest

wired internet connection that

Los Angeles will allow in my neighborhood. And I'm having a blast.
I'm happy to hear it.

It's good times.

But I guess we've got guests. We've got guests.
And you know what? I think we should talk to them. Yeah, we should probably say hi to them.
Hey, should we be a little professional? Let's be...

Let's be... Well, first of all, we got to be on our best behavior.
Yeah, let's be on our best behavior. We got to be our best behavior.
We got to do really, really good.

And let's just trick them both into thinking that we're like both. Well, I'll speak for me.
That I'm very smart.

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All right. Well, Heather, why don't we introduce our guests? Okay, Matt, let's do it.
Okay, from the podcast, 99% Invisible and W-B-U-R and their new series, Hidden Levels. Hidden? Levels.

What could that be about? Well, I'll tell you, it explores the impact of video games on modern culture. It's Roman Mars and Ben Brock Johnson.
What's up, guys? Hi, guys. Hey, hey, welcome.

Welcome to the show. Welcome, welcome to Get Played The Show.
This is like we're actually doing the show in a very serious way.

We sound so professional, and normally, none of this tone is present. No, no, everyone is like, this is false.
Yeah, yeah, this is not true. This is not there's an artifice here.

Matt and Heather have been replaced with an AI. Yeah, they've got like just avatars doing the show.
I was just sitting with my fingers like laced. Yeah.
In the

hand. Little, yeah.

Gendo from Evangelia. Gilly, I was being Gendo from Evangelia.
Get in the robot. Yeah.
Roman, get in the robot.

Thanks for being here, you guys. So you guys have a new podcast series that's coming out.
You said the street date was October 7th. Why don't you tell us a little bit about Hidden Levels?

Go for it, Ben. All right.
Well, Hidden Levels is something that I started talking to Roman and his team about about a year ago. Wow.
And it came out of this thing that I was seeing.

And look, this is going to be a statement of the obvious for you and your audience, right? Like, video games impact the world beyond video games.

And I think it's one of those things that people who are in gaming and who play video games, they know. They see it all the time as they walk through the world.

They see things that they recognize as coming from their culture and the world that they inhabit when they play games.

But I think a lot of people who don't know video gaming as well or don't play games

don't see that stuff and don't recognize it as easily. And, you know, I've always been a huge fan of Roman's Show.

I make a show about the internet called Endless Thread for WBUR, this public radio station in Boston. And always been a huge fan of Roman's show.
And Roman's Show,

which Roman will introduce better than me, is all about the, you know, the architecture and design in the world that you don't see, but is hugely important and has an impact beyond its creators.

So it just kind of felt like a match made in a video game dungeon, and we went from there.

It's neat to hear you say that

video games have become sort of like ubiquitously infused into culture because there was a time in certainly our lifetimes when that wasn't the case.

And now you will see video game language on like a billboard. You'll see things that say like level up your workout.

And leveling up was once a thing that was in an instruction booklet for Super Mario Bros.

Like you would have to be like, you'd have to learn the vocabulary and then understand it on your television and tell your friends at recess. And now these are just,

they're sort of like permafrost on reality now. Yeah.
I mean, they're really, they're, they're almost mundane and every day is part of the thing. They're not like notable.

And that's sort of what, that's sort of the bailiwick of 99% invisible.

It's about, you know, the design that is part of the built world that becomes so ordinary doorknobs, sewer covers, you know, like, like you know,

and and and all of a sudden like looking at them deeply and going, Oh, there's a story in that.

Like somebody made that a decision there and they designed something and we are interacting with it every day.

And video games are just ripe for this because the way that they've infiltrated, you know, real life and back and forth and they communicate. And it's just, it's, it's huge and it's rich.

And we had, you know, we have six stories in this series, but there's like hundreds more like we could possibly do. Yeah.
I guess so. there's it's a it's a six episode mini series, right?

And so there's six different stories. Do they all sort of like follow like a similar trajectory?

Do they intersect in any sort of way or like are all these things kind of like on their own island as far as like impact? I would say like it's a little bit of both.

You know, they they I think we found in making the series that they they led into each other really well. You know,

we have an episode about a very famous sports game that I think the sounds of which you will recognize.

And

the way that story ends with Boom Shakalaka, shall we say,

had us starting to talk about,

interestingly enough, just joysticks and the ways that we control these games. And that leads into a story, for instance, about

the hardware that we use to control these games and how that hardware has itself influenced all these other parts of the world that are not specifically or exclusively about gaming. Is that Roman?

Would you say that's fair? It's not serialized, but it's

you can you can listen to each episode on its own, but because the world is so connected, you know, like they kind of talk to each other and it was it was becoming clear as we were putting them together, like, oh, this is the right order to speak, you know, to speak about the man, you know, just because it, you know, like it

set up those connections kind of nicely. Right.
Like you're, you're talking about controllers.

Like, I think before video games, people used to have to fly planes by pulling these different ropes. Yeah.

And then they saw the joysticks and they were like, you know, this could make flying a lot easier.

Stay tuned. Episode two, you're going to have the full story because

we trace, Emery likes, traces the whole evolution of a joystick.

The plane is involved. You know,

war games are involved. Well, I was going to say, it's interesting that airplanes was the thing that

you pegged there because I was just thinking based on using a video game controller and like playing games where you have to fly planes, like, you know, flight simulator, or even like, you know, the Rogue Squadron, the Star Wars

flying game. I kind of think I could fly a plane.
I kind of think I could just do it having never tried it. Matt, have I ever told you the story of me flying a plane?

I think you have, but you have to tell.

You have to say it now. Please.

I was in Wisconsin and they have those like, you know, like roadside, like get in an airplane that a farmer owns and he'll take you on a quick shot. I mean, I've never seen that myself, but

I understand.

if you look deep enough into Wisconsin there's like you know the guys who have crop dusters and they're like you know 20 bucks for a ride and

so I got into one of these planes and was like flying around and the guy was like do you want to you want to fly the plane and I was like yes

and so he let me fly the plane and then he was like hey you're pretty good at this crazy thing to learn while letting somebody else fly a plane and i was like yeah i've played a lot of Microsoft Flight Simulator.

And he's like, yeah, it's kind of the same thing. I mean, those Microsoft Flight Simulator

folks are for real. I feel like.

That's a very

full rig. Yeah, that's

the full rig.

I will say,

as much as we like flying

planes with sort of like game input, I've heard that game controllers are really bad at submarines. Yeah, I heard something about that too, actually.

I can't remember what it it was, but I sort of do remember some story.

I think

if I'm remembering the details correctly,

I'm not sure it was the controller's fault in that situation. It certainly wasn't an airtight vessel with no escape.
Yeah.

Couldn't have been the reason. It wasn't too humorous there.

But it is fascinating. And

I love the story that we do about controllers because, and there's a couple of other stories that we have in the series that talk about this too. And I think Roman said this earlier.

These things are talking to each other, right? Like

you have this piece of hardware that's really created for

an actual massive mechanical machine that people use to traverse the real world.

And that inspires then a digital world. And then that then again goes back and inspires the real world.
And I think that's the thing that's really fascinated us when working on this series.

That's really cool. Was there anything, I mean, I guess without spoiling any like sort of particular story.
Oh, I mean, just tell us the top five moments of your upcoming series. Yeah.

Just like, just give them all.

I mean, Heather, you sound like you already heard the second episode. So, you know, I don't know.
I think somebody leaked it. I don't know.

I guess, yeah, was anything in particular, like, like, particularly revelatory to you?

Like, were you like upon learning something, you just never would have even considered like this, like, you know, like a video game being that impactful in the modern sort of world at all? Hmm.

Wow. Okay.
Well, there's a lot for me. I mean, I thought that the, I mean, what I loved about the joystick one

since we're talking about it is I, you know, I cover design a lot. And so I think about sort of principles of design.

And there's a, there's this, there's this concept of affordance, like what a device, you know, kind of telegraphs what you're supposed to do with it just by looking at it, essentially.

And so a joystick has an extremely just grockable affordance. Like you know that when you want to go up, you push push up.
When you want to go down, you push down.

And so there's that sort of thing. And then, you know, in the world of flat screen touch screen games,

a flat screen has no affordance. Like you can do anything with a screen.
And it becomes like less fun to me, you know, like in many ways.

And so there's things like this, like the principles of design that we were able to drill down on.

That even though I've done a show about design for 15 years, like I've never really had a good example to describe that to an audience, you know, like and so when we were talking about about it in editing and it was being reported out by Amory, like, you know, like we were able to discuss this and, you know, bring, so it's like, it's, it's just like, what was fascinating to me was how fundamental both like, you know, story and thought and theory and design is part of all video games.

And it should be obvious because, you know, video games,

because I mean, they are completely designed from the ground up. There's no part of it that you're like, there is the earth that I'm going to build on and therefore I have to deal with the earth.

The earth is created by somebody's mind.

The air is created by somebody's mind. And so everything is thought of.

And because of that, there's so many avenues to explore because everyone made a decision about every pixel inside of a video game.

And that is really, that was just like lit me up in sort of every story in so many ways because it just is like, there's like super smart people making decisions and thinking about things.

And you just, and what's so great about it and this sort of 99% invisible part of video games is you don't necessarily have to feel the author. You just just feel immersed.

And that means that they're doing a good job in a lot of ways. This is why I particularly enjoy animation over live action is because there's so few accidents in animation.

Like so much of it is just curated choices of design and intent.

And that's also a lot of video games, although now there's a lot of emergent play that isn't particularly the designed purpose of the game. Right.

And that sort of stuff will like float to the surface. I had a side question, which which is you talking about the

looking at an object and knowing what its purpose is.

And I think this is probably maybe something you've talked about on your podcast before, but if it isn't, I'm super curious. What is,

what do you think are like,

what is the most,

how do I put this? What's an object that you think is very poorly, not a touch screen, but that you look at it and you don't know what it's supposed to do. And it's supposed to do one thing.

For example, when I look at a carrot peeler, I am absolutely not thinking

that's so that I can scrape it on a carrot. I was going to say pickle picker-upper.
So, like, I feel like we're in the same headspace somehow. You know, those things where you like, you got to like.

It's like a tongue. Yeah.
It's sort of like, it looks like a syringe on the back end, and on the front end, it looks like one of those claws in the gaming, in the actual, you know what I'm saying?

I actually didn't know that that was what that was.

Today we learned. I thought that was for like a turkey.

I've seen that in a kitchen and I didn't know. I also think.
I just said you're like scratching her back with it.

Picking my pickles.

I also think, and this is not because

our show is

for and made by stupid people. Yeah.

Toilets. are not like they don't necessarily say what they are.
You wouldn't necessarily know that you have to do that.

Right, because you wouldn't be like, oh, I should go over there and empty into the water. Yeah.
Like, you would look at it and you would think, is this a kind of bathing apparatus?

Do I put my foot in here to clean it? Or you see water and you would, if you had not,

you would just be thinking, I'm just going to drink this. Yeah.
I mean, my cat thinks that. My cat thinks that.
Yeah, for sure.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
Romanism. If the toilet has 40 buttons on it,

then it gets really dangerous. And you know, I'm going to push all of them so I can learn exactly what the buttons do and then be horrified by the results

every now and then. Just like the elevator.
Yep.

I think the sort of plurality of smart devices have terrible affordance, and you don't know how to use them, and you have to read, you know, like instructions on how to get them.

And one of the things that makes things I mean, like, I would argue, not to disagree greatly with the carrot peeler thing. If you had a carrot peeler, I think you'd quickly learn that it peeled.

You know, like you would see it and go, here's what I'm handy.

One way in the other.

One way or the other.

But I like to think about this as

I think everyone's had this experience when you've lived in a house for maybe 20 years and you still don't know which knob goes to which burner on your stove.

That's a type of weird bad design that is like, it's like you shouldn't have to think about it.

Or like if you have a bank of light switches and you have some kind of mnemonic as to which socket it goes to. Like those represent, you know, design fails.

And I think a lot of us take those things on as like, I'm so dumb, I can't remember what light switch goes to which socket.

But really, those are bad design decisions, and they don't represent, you know, they don't sort of like exhibit good design that would sort of like you

would normally have to set that up so you wouldn't get confused, and that's the way to do that.

So, would you say that in terms of video game design and then real-world design, that your interests lie in more skewmorphic design choices?

Or are you, you, do you find that trying to translate, like looking at an icon for a tape recorder on a screen doesn't tell you the story that you are supposed to push that button in order to make the recording start?

Because also you have dissociated so much from what a tape recorder is?

Like,

how would you, do you have a way to make

game design better?

Yeah,

yeah, I honestly don't.

But I mean, I can tell tell you, like, you know, I think that these sort of, you know, these

kind of things like skew morphisms that sort of lead people because they, because you know the real world analog and therefore you know how to do them inside of a digital space, you know, they have their role, especially during the transitional phase of getting used to a digital space.

But I think at this point,

there is, like, there is no point in putting like an analog, you know, real to real in front of my kid on an icon and have them have that make sense to them.

So like that, I think that design language you know just evolves and changes over time for sure and maybe maybe this is a different kind of thing when we're talking about design but I one thing that I'm amazed at

you know I'm I'm

45 right so like I the first games that I played were arcade games and Nintendo games and I remember games that were they took forever and so long to figure out how to use how to like move the player how to move the sprite whatever and just like um

you know i think of a game like well this is a new example, but like Cuphead, if you know that game.

And like that game, I don't think, I think I've still not made it past the first level of that game. Like that's a hard, that's a hard game.
Yeah.

But it's sort of, I feel like it's calling back to some of those games where you, you just really, it didn't sort of push you forward.

The game didn't pull you forward in the way that games do now, where like you're immediately immersed in the space that you're playing in and you're just getting these directives one at a time, like

press X to pick up the gun you know what i mean like there's a there's a way in which the game is communicating with you as a player that is i feel much better now than it used to be where they used to be kind of like esoteric and and hard to get into in some ways and now it's like it's kind of dummy-proof some of the way that the games communicate with you as you like move into the environment if that makes sense you sorry i was gonna say so much literacy for video games in general comes from your uh like predetermined knowledge of video you have to like I don't think somebody could pick up like The Last of Us 2 for example having never played a video game before and be like this is easy to me because there's so many things you sort of do have to know like

that the left joystick moves your person and then the right joystick moves your field of vision and that's like you're sort of learning to sort of pat your head and rub your tummy at the same time kind of with with some of these things.

Well

yeah, but like if you know how to play a video game, chances are you're going to know how to play a different video game pretty easily. Yeah.
Yeah.

There's also a lot of vestigial stuff that has just become the vocabulary of games. Like, for example, there's ammo in barrels.
Yeah. And it used to be.

Well, but I like if you look at like

that's not how that works in real life.

But it comes from a time when you're playing these side-scrolling fighting games and there isn't a lot of information on screen and perhaps you're walking through a city and there are trash cans rendered in pixels on the on the screen and so you know oh i can punch those trash cans and when you punch the trash cans sometimes you'll get a food item that will help your character get their life back and so you'll punch a trash can and a turkey will come out and you'll be like oh i can i now i can get better yeah but all of that legacy has then gone all the way to effectively last of us part two where you're like smashing shit in the environment to try and find ammunition for your character

in a way that you absolutely never would interact with reality.

And all of that is sort of

an assumed knowledge on part of the developers that is then,

you know, like you can't,

like people can watch any movie as their first movie.

tech like generally yeah it you're sure some that probably shouldn't be your first right right but you can you you don't have to like, there's not a ton. Like, dogs watch movies now.

There's all the TikToks of, like, people, like dogs watching the Lion King and under and following it. And I'm like, how do you...

Are they following it? Well, yeah, because they... They're like getting the, they're getting Simba's arc.
They are definitely getting Simba's arc because when, when...

Who's the Scar? Scar. Scar's on screen.
They'll bark at Scar because he's hurt somebody earlier. So the dog is following it.
And I'm like, how does the dog understand what an edit is? How is it?

Like the lion is over there and then the lion's over anyway all this is a digression to say that nine out of ten dogs hate scar that is true that is true they don't like well i got lost scar a cat scar's a cat right yeah they all hate that dogs don't like that

they hate him uh so we talked a little i mean so let's let's get into like your just your histories with gaming in general we got a little bit uh of Ben's there, but let's get into it just a little bit deeper.

Where are you guys at with games like today, I guess, is a, is a good jumping off point. Yeah, what's your rank in Fortnite?

Man, barely, barely, uh, barely survives five minutes. I mean, Fortnite, my, my experience in Fortnite, Fortnite's one of those games where I can, I, I think it's gotten better at matching, right?

Like, I, I used it when I first started playing Fortnite, and maybe I've gotten better too, hopefully, but um,

when I first started playing, it was like two minutes of me screaming and then starting over. Do you know what I mean? Like I was just like running and hiding and then starting over.

I will say that I put, you know, really my gaming

is these days about connection. I really like talking to my good friends across the country who I don't see anymore.
You know, they have their own lives. I have my own life.

They, you know, they're parents. I'm a parent.
So one of the ways that I connect with them is we play games together and we learn the lore together.

And we, you know, we spend a couple hours every week doing that. And that's really wonderful.

And

it's really less about the grind and more about

talking to each other. And, you know, we've basically had group therapy sessions, you know, talking to each other as we've gone through life challenges.
And

a lot of what we do these days is a sort of second screen activity or you're doing a couple of things at the same time.

And I don't know if that's bad or good, but I just know that like my buddies and I, we talk every week and that's that's meaningful to me. And so I play Helldivers, I play,

we just started playing Diablo 4.

I

we played like every sniper elite because one of my buddies is just obsessed with sniping, and that's what he loves to do.

I played Generation Z.

I liked that game a lot because of the crafting and just like moving through that sort of post-apocalyptic fighting robots world, which is, you know, that's a classic trope and it works.

But mostly I just do it for fun. I mean, we've tried to play weirder, odder games, but we have a kind of split.

Half of the group is like, I just want to shoot guns, and half of the group is like, no, let's do something weird and interesting with games. And so sometimes we fight about that.

But generally, it's for me, it's just a place to connect and a way to connect and blow off steam. Yeah.
And Roman, am I correct? You're a bit of a lapsed gamer, would you say?

Yeah, I don't know if I was ever really a gamer as such. I mean,

I kind of, I don't do much gaming today. I kind of do passive

tower defense type games when I'm listening. I have to listen to a lot of

audio for my job.

And so I need something that doesn't really require good timing, you know, that is something I can do while I'm doing something else. And so I love tower defense games.

And I play some fitness games like on an Oculus because I like to box and stuff like this.

And I injured my back boxing for real when I punched stuff like solid things.

Is there a trash can? Were you trying to find a turkey in a trash can?

No,

I wish,

but there are no turkeys anywhere. I've tried.

Just wait a couple of months. There's going to be turkeys everywhere.
That's true. That's true.

So I love like supernatural. I love like doing stuff like that.
It's pretty, it's pretty fun for me.

But my history is, it's strange.

I was involved in the development of some of the first

voice chat. in gaming in the 90s.
Wow.

And so I had a friend who I went to college with, and he developed this app called Roger Wilco. It was a standalone application that

was behind your Baldur's Gate or your

Doom or your Tribes. And

it ran on a 28-8 modem.

It was super clean and beautifully done. And I was the first QA tester for the company.
And so I played a lot of early multiplayer games like that. And

in fact, selling that, it was funny. It was like selling that company is what paid for my three-year internship in public radio that led me into being a podcaster.
Wow. Wow.
I still know that.

Talk about learning the lore. Cool.

So, yeah, so our early, so I used to test games. So I played games like hours and hours with Roger Wilco running underneath it just to see if it works and if all the technology works.

And so that's what I did for

mid-late 90s. Yeah.
Do you, from that time, do you remember a game that you were like, this, I like, it didn't feel like work kind of, of, that you were like, I'm actually enjoying this one.

It's tribes.

I was a sniper in the renegade mod of tribes, and I could come onto

a server and I could clear it because I just killed. I just,

I would just annihilate, and people would just leave as soon as they saw my name show up. And I began to have to come in with different names so that they would play longer.

But yeah, if anyone knows Tribes, that was like, that was, that was totally my game. I would get into that one beyond.
I love it.

Mendel, I was a genetics PhD student, so I went by Mendel. Usually

if you're this good at sniping and you don't come on as Mendel, I love the moment on a server when people are like, oh, shit, Raspberry Ghost is Mendel. Raspberry Ghost is Mendel.

Yeah, totally.

I used to frustrate a lot. Anyone accused me of cheating and stuff like this? It was really like,

I'm just good. which is i'm just great at this

you can be mental uh i want to because i also uh i love to box i'm also a boxer um what is your uh vr boxing app of choice i do a supernatural i like that one because i like supernatural i like the music it's mesa it's not and i've done what is the fight for

I don't know.

There's another one that's actually a video game game, like that where you have an opponent. I've played that one too, and it wears me out.
That's great. And

they're mainly like fitness games. They're not so much like, or fitness apps, they're not so much just like a boxing game so much.
Right. Yeah.
Yeah.

But they're probably gamified, right? Which is another example of how the world changes

or the video game world changes the other, the rest of the world, right? Yeah, for sure. Yeah.
No, it really helps.

It really is motivating for sure and, you know, teaches you, you know, patterns and stuff like that. And it's, it's good.
It basically just sort of gets me moving.

I don't quite have the constitution to sit and play a game anymore. I kind of, I just like, that's just not how I'm wired anymore.
And Even when I watch TV, I walk on a treadmill most of the time.

And so,

so fitness gaming is sort of my version of just like moving and playing games at the same time.

To the tower defense aspect of

your gaming, though, I don't play a lot of those games though, but like I could see a game like that being a good second thing you're doing while like, you know, listening to, you know,

I have edited my own voice for a long time too. So like whatever is getting me focused on not hearing my own voice and, you know,

how horrible I sound when I speak,

I'll enjoy another activity as well. But I get distracted because the games that I pick are going to be like...

like Hollow Knight Silk Song or like Elden Ring or something where I have to be so focused on the actions of what's going on.

But like a tower defense thing, it's like a set it and forget it type of thing. What's the appeal for you there? Yeah, I mean, it's it's basically that.

It's like you can, there's a little bit of timing involved usually as it gets at the upper levels or whatever, but like your precise sort of,

you know, Metroid style timing is not required.

Yeah. And so, and so it's just sort of like you have to kind of be a present.
And I just find that it actually kind of helps me focus because I can drift listening.

I have to listen to hours and hours of people talking, like in terms of like raw tape of people talking.

I listen to a ton of podcasts and I listen to a lot of books on tape in quotes for my job to prepare for interviews. And

I used to do this when I worked at WBUR. Sorry, WBUR.
I worked at WBEZ in Chicago. And

I used to sit at my desk and one of my jobs was listening to audio documentaries all day long. And I sit at my desk to play Solitaire.
And people would walk by. And I actually had a manager sort of.

make fun of me, like complain that I was

playing a game all day instead of doing my job.

And it it was like, I need this to do my job. Like I am listening to this stuff.
And if I was just listening, I would doze off. I would not, I would lose focus.

And I, so I started using games then to sort of like, to, to sort of keep my ears open, actually. I've only ever been able to play video games at one job.

I guess if you don't count this one, but we don't play video games when we're doing this. We could.
We should. It'd be more interesting.

I mean, people are constantly asking us to do the thing that you're saying right now, which is why, why don't you guys live stream your games?

And it's, for me, it's that speaking while gaming is almost impossible. Yeah, like

I can't

play a guitar and talk. Well, I can't play the avenue of perception, too.
I just don't need it.

It's terrible. But

I worked at a restaurant in their office

taking reservations.

And it was a nice Michelin star restaurant in town. I'll tell you where it was afterward.

And I was. Burger King.
It was at Burger King.

And I had just,

yeah, I was with

who's that?

The chef's name, I think, is Peter Pickle or something.

But I would bring my Switch to work. And

I'm really testing the limits of what I'm allowed to do here, I think, because I'm very obviously playing a video game, but my job is to answer the phone and put in a reservation on a computer if somebody calls to make the reservation, right?

And then I'm calling people confirming reservations. But apart from that, I'm sitting at a desk for hours.
There's not another facet to that job.

So I was like, I have to do something or I'm just never going to come back here.

Then you're just trapped not doing anything. And so I started to bring my switch to work.
And also, I'm working at night, right? The restaurant closes at 11.

So from like 9 to like 11 o'clock, nobody's calling to make a dinner reservation. I'm just chilling and getting paid and playing Breath of the Wild.

It was like, actually, I think about that time a lot.

I had less going for me. You had it good.
But that was good. That was really, really nice.
Isn't it funny how memories like that can just of playing games can just be so powerful and

sort of like remind you of a time in your life. I feel like that's

I don't know. I just like when you were describing that, I was, I know exactly what you mean where you were like, maybe it wasn't the best job or the best situation, but like 9 p.m.

to 11 p.m., man, you were free to I was just hanging out, but I couldn't leave in case somebody called, right? They couldn't call me off because what if somebody

did want to call or something? They couldn't, they can't have somebody else

doing that. Yeah.

They're doing something more important. But if you were VR boxing, maybe that would not fly.
But I feel like

switching off and

sweaty.

Yeah, if I had brought my dance dance revolution rig to the office,

probably not a good idea.

Are you familiar with the VR game Super Hot? Yeah, yeah.

It's a game where you're like John Wick basically like dodging like, or, you know, I guess Neo more like in the, you're, you're a Keanu Reeves type character in this game, and you're like dodging bullets and like throwing knives and stuff.

That would not be great for

that's a very fun game. I played that one for sure.

rules it is so so fun um uh ben we do have to talk about this your name on the on the chat right now is battle toads ben battle toads ben and we did talk about this a little bit i did ask you who your favorite battle toad is and you did say zit and that's the only correct answer i think

wart's tough what's the other one i don't remember what i remember wart what's that isn't it wart rash rash

i was about to say one of them was piss and it's not piss

like if it was piss, you'd buy it. You're sort of like, I guess one of them is piss.

You would not buy it because you were the child. They're all skin conditioning.

And your parents definitely wouldn't buy you a game where it's like

zit

and rash and piss.

Yeah, Battletoad's much more. Yeah.

They should, this is a free idea to anybody making a video game then. As soon as you name your character piss, I'm buying the game.
Doesn't matter what kind of game it is. I'm there.

But I was so excited when I was, you know, I've recently discovered the show and have become a listener. So

I love what y'all do and the joy with which you do it.

But

you have like a deep, you got a deep catalog, and I discovered that you have a Battle Toads episode, I think, or the show has a Battle Toads episode. Yeah.
I'll send it to you.

I think it's behind a paywall, but I'll get that over to you. Oh, my God.

I would love to listen to it because that was one of those games that, again, like there was a period of, and I should say, like, I tell a lot of people, I've told a lot of people, I think I've said this to Roman, when I was growing up, my parents wouldn't let me have a Nintendo.

They wouldn't let me play video games until I was, you know, maybe 12, 14 years old. So I was always, I was the kid who would come over to your house and you'd be like, hey, let's play outside.

And I'd be like, hey, man, take me to the basement, show me the Nintendo. And like, if you have snacks, that's cool.
And if you want to leave me there, that's also cool.

I just need, please, I got to have it. So your hands gripping tighter and tighter around his neck.

Show me where it is, man, please.

But Battle Toads was one of those early games that I played. And

I recently, I guess I was like poking around about this and realized it's also like connected to Double Dragon, right? Like there was a combo version of the game, I think.

There was Battle Toads versus Double Dragon, where they all teamed up. Or Battle Toads X, Double Dragon.
Yes, you're not incorrect. This is a game.
Fair.

And so, like, but what I remember of Battle Toads was it was a super hard game. I mean, I was, you know, I was maybe nine, but like, it was such a hard game.

And it was, again, one of those games where you, you, you, I never progressed past, there was like a, there's a level where you're, you're like on a surfboard, or maybe it's more like it's like you're, you're, you're jumping over the, the, the walls.

And the walls flash for like a half second before they arrive on screen. Yes.

And

I just, that's one of those games that has like a sense memory for me where I just, I, I can, I can, I can remember the, you know, the Doritos dust on my fingertips and

the sweat of like trying to get past that level. And I don't know if I ever did, but I, I loved that game.
It was a great game. It's, it's funny that

talking about your parents not letting you play video games reminds me of a very sort of semi-famous

in-gaming circles far side comic from the 90s or like maybe it was late 80s where it's a kid playing video games and the parents are daydreaming of a career in video games and the joke is that'll never happen because like that's what the far side is saying is oh that'll never happen these guys are all idiots and now

you can make so much money yeah playing video games that the comic doesn't make sense yeah to like it doesn't the joke doesn't work you can make a lot of uh money you can uh affect politics in a very uh particular way

it's all very interesting yeah yes

sometimes too interesting yeah it's a little too interesting like actually everybody calm down

stop actually yeah uh

well guys before we get you out of here i guess i i don't i i don't know if this is necessarily spoiling or could spoil but i have a i guess another question uh just about video games and their impact on society at large.

Yeah.

Good or bad?

One word answer. Bye.
Just

no, no, I think like I, well, what I would say is, um,

so my son, I have twins who are eight years old. My son is eight years old.
Uh,

he is, uh, he's, he's, he loves Minecraft. Yeah.
He loves,

he, he loves the Harry Potter game. I have mixed feelings about, I don't know, I have

mixed feelings about the creator of Harry Potter, but my son loves that game.

I think that

games

like Dungeons and Dragons, for instance, which inspired a lot of video games, they do teach you to, number one, solve problems.

And number two,

like have a safe space to try to solve problems and fail and try again.

And I think that they can lead you, especially in the case of things like Minecraft, they can lead you to be really creative, right?

I also think that they are, you know, I mean, this is going to maybe sound ridiculous to some of your listeners because who, you know, whoever bought the latest, you know,

PS5 Pro or whatever, but like.

They are also like relatively cheap. Like you can, you can access games relatively cheaply.
And

I think having an interactive form of entertainment

that you can, that is, you know, relatively democratized, both in terms of playing, but also in terms of building now, like the fact that you can build games more easily,

that's a good thing.

I think where it gets problematic is when

we,

you know, I think when we allow any sort of tech company to

not have any kind of

consequences for, you know, whatever, like fomenting hate or, you know, and I think, you know, game companies have gotten better at policing this stuff, I guess.

And, you know, maybe I shouldn't even use the word policing. I think it's complicated.
No, for sure, yeah. But I think like, you know,

it can be addicting to you. And like, that's a dangerous zone.
And so, you know,

limiting your time, I think is, for me, that's an important thing. But ultimately, it's like so much of the technology we use.

It can be a positive thing. It can be a negative thing.
It's just a tool and it's a technology.

And we just have to be intentional and careful and thoughtful and caring in the way that we use it and in the way that we use it together.

Wow. That is the most thoughtful thing ever said on this show.
Yeah, truly.

Public radio. What are you going to do, Isaiah?

I don't know. I didn't think one of the frogs was called Piss really there.

And my favorite battle to the Zit. Thank you.

Same show where we're like, toilets look like you should drink them.

But I'm curious, like, Roman, what do you think? I feel like... Oh, I think good.
I don't know. I don't really have.

I feel exactly the same as you, but I think the dial is more towards good. I also just think that you can't sort of argue that the world would be a better or worse place without video games.

You just could argue it's just it would be a completely different world without them.

And that's really the sort of the sort of the end of it.

It's just like

they're a huge part.

And I think that in addition to you mentioning there actually are careers in video games, as evidenced by us being on a podcast now, is like it kind of trains you to think in ways that are.

are perfect for the modern world in terms of problem solving,

in terms of just like quick thinking and dexterity and the sort of idea of if-then, you know, decisions and complex decisions. And I, you know, I think they're great.

I don't know. I have a hard time thinking.
I do think that the social aspect of them that can sort of cause issues is the same social aspect that makes social media a problem, that makes

tabloids a problem. Like everything.

When you get a bunch of people together, they can get together for nefarious ends as well as great ends. And so that's just part of it all.

Well, guys, that was, I really enjoyed talking to you guys. Thank you so much for being here with us today.
Why don't you guys plug the show again real quick and then we'll get you out of here? Sure.

The six-part series is called Hidden Levels.

It's about how video games affect the world and it's a co-production of 99% Invisible, which is my podcast, and Endless Thread, which is Ben Brock Johnson's podcast.

And it's going to come out wide on October 7th. Yeah, we hope you'll listen.
Let us know

how much we got wrong. Just kidding.

Check it out wherever you get your podcasts. And

guys, thanks so much. Yeah, thank you.
Thank you. I really appreciate it.
Yeah, thanks, y'all. It was great to be with you.

I liked talking about that. Yeah, that was nice.
I liked it a lot. I was super.
I

like genuinely feel like that was a good thing that happened. That was great.
It was great to just actually legitimately hear good insight. Like

smart people just going off the dome. Yeah.
And I'm like very, very interested in checking out their show Hidden Levels. Yeah.
I can't wait to hear that. Yeah.
Two great guys.

Two fun guests to chat with. Wonderful time.
Wonderful time. We should do it more often.
I welcome it.

Yeah. The only reason we got away with it is because, you know, Nick wasn't here.

He threatens the guests.

What the fuck you do?

He takes him. He takes him into the hallway and does a shoulder check.
You think you're better than me?

It's tough. Let me tell you something, buddy.
I gave Burger King five forks, all right?

We've had guests walk

right before because Nick comes up and shoulder checks them. Yeah.
And it's like, he'll just whisper in their ear, Chick-fil-A. And they're like, what the fuck was that?

Earthworm Jim was going to be here. Yeah.
Earthworm Jim. And

he saw Nick in the hallway. And he goes, oh, hey, how's it going?

He pulled his worm head out of his body. Yeah.
And just exposed his worm body. Yeah.

His naked worm body. Leaving behind his sort of humanoid buff suit.

And he put him outside in the sun. He got all dried up.
Yeah. Yeah.

And all he said to him was sweet green. Yeah.

He said, sweet green. I kind of didn't get that.
What do you mean?

I don't know.

Look, we do have time for a segment real quick. Should we do one? Let's do it.
And you know what? I think it's time we go back to the well with Segma Dreamcast. Oh, no.

And I think, let's just cast a banger real quick. Oh no.
I don't know people, man. I think we got this.
This, because look, there's,

I think we got this. Okay, okay.
We're going to cast the film adaptation, the fictional

film adaptation, though I wish there was a real film

of Final Fantasy VII. Shocked that there hasn't been a real film announced.
Yeah. Shocked.
Not like the one that we got.

Advent Children. Advent Children.
Well, no, I mean, like, I'm surprised either a CG or live-action Final Fantasy VII film has not been. Yeah.
like there's been no whispering of it.

We're getting a fucking Zelda movie. Yes.
I thought Zelda would be so far behind Cloud Strife. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right.

It would make sense. It would make a great, you know what? It'd make a great limited series.
It would. It would.
But maybe we have some say on who gets to be in it.

Maybe it's because these people are so beautiful. They're like, well, we can never have actual humans in this fucking series.
Nothing could ever measure

the actual beauty. Why don't we start? Okay.
Let's just start with Aerith. Aerith.
Aerith, depending on the localization. Aerith.
Aerith. Who would play Aerith in a movie?

I don't know any human actors. I don't know anybody who's famous.
I don't remember faces. So who's your thoughts on this immediately? Like,

who would you think? Well, let's think about the character of Aerith for a second, right? She's sort of, she's like a healer, a magic user. Hunter Schaefer.
Hunter Schaefer, sure.

Honestly, yeah. Hunter Schaefer is beautiful, right? Absolutely.
Like that,

I mean, right? Oh, yeah. No, 100%.
If you, if you pull up Hunter Schaefer's Wikipedia, she's kind of got like a,

she's got, she's got like the look, kind of. I guess she's, she's a little bit more, at least in this photo, a little bit more sinister looking.
Let's see if.

She honestly might make a great Sephiroth.

No, because that's like an Aerith face. Yeah, no, yeah, totally.
Yeah, she could... That's Aerith.
Yeah, I could see it. Yeah, some brown hair.
Why not? Okay, so there's one.

You got Schaefer as Aerith. Who else? Who else?

Well, I mean,

that's cast. We got that.
That's. Oh, that's done? I mean, well, because I'm trying to think of, like, who else, who else could do it, right? Like, because, like,

Aerith is sort of like, she's like the bubbly one in the crew, right? So, like, you maybe want somebody who's like,

I could see it being, gosh, well, I could see this actor for a different character.

I have Margaret Qualy stuck in my head, but I think Margaret Qualy might be a fun Tifa. Okay, how about this? How about this?

I know right now she's playing an aggressive character. Uh-huh.

But

Caitlin Deaver as Aerith. Caitlin Deaver as Aerith could be good.

Currently, currently playing Abby, but

look,

playing against type.

look at look at that that picture there yeah yeah I can see it that's Aerith right I can see it look at this that's that's Aerith adjacent Caitlin Deaver let's put it on let's get it on the board why not yeah um

I mean that could be that could be Aerith yeah I think it's got whatever whatever it is they just have to have the ability to like get stabbed to get to the vote

to convey that they they could heal uh

uh somebody i think i think these are some good options so far why don't we move on to Tifa while we're on it? Tifa. Now, this is where I think we could get somebody like a Margaret Qualey in here.

Yep.

Yep. I think that's

a great fucking call. Yeah.

Margaret Qualy for Tifa is kind of an unbeatable choice.

I don't know anybody who would be better than her for Tifa.

Gosh, there's got to be somebody. I mean, like, because she's great.

I think I could just see her getting a little buff,

you know? Mm-hmm.

And obviously, this is the American film. It's not like, it's not like the proper,

you know, these actresses aren't Japanese

and should be, but we're, we're playing the Hollywood game here. We're not playing the actual game.
I have a pitch here, and I think I have to go back to Tifa or to Aerith for a second. Okay.

Specifically because of her performance in White Lotus Season 3. I think we got to put Lisa on the board i think she's a real cutie okay

i think we got something here okay and also now our movie's gonna make a billion dollars she's the most famous person on earth

we got it okay

okay i'm cooking with gas here this is good stuff market qualifer for tifa i'm trying to think of who else could be a good comp for tifa

uh

I'm realizing now that, yeah, they're just like,

I'm thinking of the same four actresses that are in everything. Okay.
And it's just like, it's not, that's like,

what am I, some fucking suit, some fucking stuffed shirt?

No.

Right. Maybe we'll come up with somebody a little bit later.
Let's move on to

Barret. I think I have one here.
Okay. You got to hear me out on this one.
It's going to seem crazy because we know him. I think we got to get my boy Iffy in here.

We have to get Iffy Wadiway as Barret. He's the buffest man I know.
Yeah, no,

I have no.

And you're not going to tell me he wouldn't crush it. He's a dad.
He has the pathos to do it. Yeah,

I can't think of why Iffy would be bad at this role at all.

And he definitely has the

physical structure

to be Barret. So I would, yeah, I mean, like, it's hard.

That's a great, that's a great call. It's got to just be my boy Iffy.
But you also know that they're going to, that, that it's Hollywood, right? Yes. They're going to cast a

rock. They're going to want the rock.
They're going to want the rock as Barrett. They're going to want, you know,

I don't know. The rock's kind of...
Here's the thing. He could do it.

Yeah, he could do it.

I just like,

they have to at least, if I'm making the movie, they got to see my friend Iffy's tape. Well, no, I think if he is the right guy for it.
Yeah. Because he's going to bring a little humor to it, too.

But we're playing, we're doing the thing they do in the studio where they just like put the names up on the thing and then they say a bunch of celebrities and then and then they think they've done their job.

Yeah. Yeah.
Like, for example, I know who Red 13 should be. But who should be Red 13? Let's move on.
It should be Benedict Cumberbatch because

100% correct. Because that's who they're going to put as Red 13.
Yeah.

Okay, if Benedict Cumberbatch is Red 13, I have the

casting.

The casting for Kate Sith, and I think it's the most exciting casting of the whole movie.

Okay, okay. Who's Kate Sith? Matt Berry.

It is Matt Berry. And

there's nobody else that can do it.

He's going to fucking crush it. It's going to be so great.
Or, you know what? David Tennant. David Tennant would also be a good Kate Sith, wouldn't he? But I could see,

I could hear Matt Berry's voice coming out of it.

And I think that's a lot of fun. Okay.
I think it's great. He's just got such a wonderful voice, and I want to hear it no matter what he's, no matter who he is.
You know who else could be

Red 13 would be Gary Oldman. Gary Oldman would be great.
You know, because of the character design, he kind of looks like Scar from the Lion King. I am thinking of,

what's his name? Jeremy Irons, I think, would also bring a certain, but he also, we have to remember that

Red 13 is also, canonically a teenager yeah he changes his voice differently yeah so the teenage voice

the uh what one of the sprouse twins or something i don't know it's cumberbatch it's cumber patch doing both yeah they just pitch him down yeah uh

there's a handsome picture of jeremy iron yeah it definitely is

looking at a picture of jeremy iron and he looks like he is made of iron yeah he looks like a fucking movie star this guy The next character on your list is Impossible to Cast.

It's Impossible to Cast. I had the Hollywood answer, and it's not great, but it's close.

The Hollywood answer is Austin Butler. You get him in a sort of...

You mean Masters of the Sky?

Yeah, Fade Rotha from Dune. Wait.
Elvis. Yeah.
Masters of the Sky. Yeah.
Yeah. Because he sort of has...
Yeah. I guess if I'm putting it poetically, a beauty like no other

he is a beautiful boy

he's definitely a beautiful boy but what about uh what about actual dune

timothy what about timothy timothy oh he's just a little bit more beautiful too isn't he he's just a little bit more angelic like and you have to have somebody that looks

uh i mean i yeah he looks a little too much like a haunted doll in these pictures unfortunately i don't know if it's it yeah oh okay

i think think, no,

I don't think he works. I don't think

Ranch has done

a very important Google search, which is Timothy Chalamet blonde, and it is unfortunately not doing it for us. Yeah, it's not, it's not Butler.

Butler is imagine Butler with the hair.

Yeah, could be. It could be.

It could be Butler. You kind of want, like, you wish, this is the conversation they're having in the studio.
Yeah. They want, they wish Colin Farrell was 30 years younger.
Yeah.

Somebody with some sort of angular face who's just like gorgeous. Colin Farrell 30 years younger.
Yeah. And they

got Cloud. Yeah.
They've got him. But who do we got? I mean, who's like the...

It's Austin Butler, who's a little bit, he's a little bit too square. Yeah, yeah.

He looks a little bit like Polygon Cloud, but

he definitely gives

sorrow while also giving beauty.

Who are those boys from that... Branch, you watched that The Summer I Turn Pretty?

Oh, none of those guys. None of those boys that don't got it.
I don't know who.

I know nothing about the show. I just have heard about it.

People like to talk about it. Because

it's about these people fucking and stuff and everyone's being creative. Yeah, no, they don't got it.
No, no, no. They're a little too Amber Crombie.

I think you're right.

I think Austin Butler is

the best we got right now.

Out of curiosity, because I can't really recall his face. What about the guy who plays Lestat in Interview with the Vampire the TV show? Oh.

Because he's a pretty boy.

How pretty is he? Is he pretty enough? I think he's pretty enough to be our next character. Oh, yeah, you're right.
I think he's got a little too much going on.

Yeah, he's got, he's a little too mean looking. He's a little too mean.
I think you put a little silver wig on his hand. He's around him, and he's him.
I think he's Sephiroth. Oh, okay.

And what is this gentleman's name?

Sam Reed.

I wish he had a more interesting name. Well, I mean, he, but look at him.
Yeah, no, that's.

I mean, when he's playing lists, did you do a clumps and do cloud and Sephiroth?

No.

No,

he's more Sephirothy than he is Cloud. Yeah.

He looked too, he looks too. There's something wrong with him.

Yeah, yeah.

Who else could be Sephiroth, though?

I have a take. I don't have an actor.

Jack Black. I I don't have an actor in mind, but I just, I have a vibe, a particular vibe I'm going for.
It either has to be.

You know what? Actually, no, I do. It's Tilda Swinton.

Tilda Swinton as a Traffican. It has to be either a beautiful man or a beautiful, like angular, like...

Yeah.

Hold on.

Hold on. I think we got something here.
Wait up, though. Because you say Tilda, and then I thought Kate Blanchette.
Oh, Lydia Tarr. What if it's Kate Blanchette as a test?

Kate Blanchette as Sephiroth. Kate Blanchette as Sephiroth.
I'd be fucking scared.

Yeah, no, that's good.

Sorry, Samri. We just learned about you.
No, it's it doesn't work at all.

It's really funny, but it doesn't work. I think she's got it, though.
Like, she could get there.

I think it's like, it's not maybe the quite right look, but there's something about how beautiful Sephiroth is that I think it's a beauty that could only be trade by either be portrayed by the most beautiful man or a woman.

Yeah, because it's the Peter Pan rule. It's like you have to have somebody who is so who is so beyond

who is the most beautiful person alive?

That should be Sephiroth. I got another pitch for Tifa.
Okay. Allison Williams.
Okay.

I don't know who that is, but go for it. I'm just thinking about her and Megan, too.
She did punching and stuff.

She could do it. Great.
She's Tifa. Great.
Tifa. That works, Allison Williams.
It could work. It's

not going to be a good thing. You know, I'm also going to say, just to say it, because it's a horrible thing, but it's true.
Batifa is extremely well endowed. So what about that girl?

You got to pull up a whole different list now. No, what about that girl that is like everybody hates right now because of the jeans ad? Sidney Sweeney.
That girl. Is she.
What is she doing?

It's the choice they would make. I don't know what she looks like.
Yeah, I mean, it doesn't really quite work. Yeah, no, she looks too...

She's getting buffed for a... She's buffed for a movie where she plays like a wrestler right now, but she looks too mean, like she's got mean girl eyebrows.
Yeah, she can't, she can't be Tifa.

Yeah, no, she's not Tifa. Oh, man, sorry, and it's all because of your genes, your stupid little gene commercial.
Nice try.

Who is the most beautiful human being alive? Because that's who plays Sephiroth. Who is it?

Oh my god, it's Jillian Anderson?

Jillian Anderson from X-Files? Yeah,

that was your answer to who the most beautiful person alive is.

I think I'm right. Look, here's the thing, Matt.
I love you, and I love the show, and I love Jillian Anderson. I don't think she's Sephiroth.

I say I gotta see her in the silver wig. I gotta see what she's.

I think Sephiroth is

I think Sephiroth is like a K-pop star who,

you know, who is like,

who is already, because he also carries himself like he's the like he is the greatest gift to man yeah yeah so you need somebody with so much presence and attitude and beauty that i feel like it's got to be a uh like whoever the k-pop dude is who inspired the k-pop dude from uh k-pop demon hunters that's the guy it could be V from BTS, which Ranch has pulled up.

I mean, yeah, that looks, that, that guy looks like him. Oh, this guy could be Cloud.
That guy could be Cloud.

Oh, my God.

He's beautiful.

How is this the first time I've seen this guy?

Oh, my God. He's Cloud.

Okay, so that's Cloud.

Googled him with the blonde hair. Okay.
He's Cloud. Great.
Okay, so that's Cloud. And then look, maybe this Sam Reed guy's Sephiroth.

I mean,

in that picture of Sam Reed as Lestat, he does have all of the Sephiroth energy. Yeah.
Now imagine him with a really long, pointy sword. Yeah.

All right. I guess, I guess that's our cast.
I guess that's the cast.

And that's this week's Get Played. Our show is produced and engineered by Rochelle Chan Ranch, Yard underscore, underscore sard on social media and Twitch.

Our show's music is by Ben Prenti, BenPruntyMusic.com. Our show's art is by DuckBrigade, DuckBrigadesign.com.
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And check out our Patreon, patreon.com/slash get played for ad-free main feed episodes, our complete back catalog, including how did this get played, and our premium DLC episodes, and our exclusive show, Get Animate, where we're watching.

Oh, boy. Oh, boy.
We're watching Elfin Lead. And just so you know, this week's episode was tough.
Yeah, you maybe don't need to watch it. Yeah.

But you can listen to us talk about how we wished we hadn't. Yeah, if you've not watched Elfin Lead, Elfin Lead yet.
Maybe don't. Don't.

But you can listen to the episodes. Yeah.
And we'll tell tell you when it's safe to watch again. Yeah.
Check that out at patreon.com/slash get played. And you can

find all this, of course, in the show notes. And I'll do it for this week's Get Played.
And you know what got played this week? We did by how informative and professional our guests were.

Yeah, we did. We really got played.
You know what? Something to think about going forward. Let's conduct this show with a little decorum from now on, a little respect for ourselves.
What do you say?

I wish I hadn't been naked, covered in spaghetti sauce for all that.

That was a Headgum podcast.

Hi, I'm Nicole Bayer. Hi, I'm Sashir Zemeda.
And this is the podcast, Best Friends.

And we're here at Headgum.

So this is just a podcast where we just talk. Yeah.
We're best friends. Yeah.
We talk, and then we have a segment where we answer questions and queries.

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Subscribe to best friends on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast and watch videos on YouTube. New episodes drop every Wednesday.
That's the middle of a work week.

I was deeply unhelpful to you during that whole thing. You were.
I'm really solved the support. I was so okay.
I was trying to be supportive. Yeah.
But I was like, I don't know.

Reading seems pretty hard right now. It's a lot.
I think you did good. Thank you so much.
You're welcome.