SPY GUYS with Ex-CIA Officer, Andrew Bustamante

Speaker 1 The following podcast is a DR Media production.

Speaker 1 the good guys.

Speaker 2 Mazza Morris, welcome back to the Good Guys podcast. We're sitting here with Andrew Bustamante, ex-CIA officer, New York Times best-selling author for his new book, Shadowcell Mazel.

Speaker 1 Congrats. Thank you, sir.

Speaker 3 Amazing. And the head of hair.
My God, godly hair. If you're not watching on YouTube, you're missing out on the locks of the year.
Like, let me tell you, sure, Andrew has many qualifications.

Speaker 3 This head of hair,

Speaker 1 this is golden josh it's unbelievable i wish you were here in person to see it it's just it's it's voluminous that's the word voluminous none of this makes me feel very masculine guys just so you know like i re appreciate the compliments but uh well the good news is you're on one of the gayest podcasts with straight men in the world okay

Speaker 2 we're married to women but it's all beards it's all beards

Speaker 1 which we'll make from your hair yeah i love it that's a lot of of beards. Holy smokes.
That's some Viking beard that we can make from braiding this bad boy. Yeah.

Speaker 3 So we were talking about how you're going to donate your hair, Josh. I'm just thinking now.
He's donating it to children's hospitals.

Speaker 3 You could also donate it to the Hasidic community, the ones who can't grow long beards, Josh. We can have, how many beards do you think we can get from your hair?

Speaker 1 Eight beards? Wow.

Speaker 3 Eight Lubovicha beards? I think eight beards.

Speaker 1 Yes. Love it.
What happens when a Hasidic can't grow long hair? No, seriously. What happened? Does anything happen?

Speaker 2 They just accept it, but

Speaker 3 these are the questions that we should be asking.

Speaker 1 These are worldly questions. I don't know.
Yes.

Speaker 3 These are worldly questions, Andrew. I don't know the answer, but

Speaker 3 I think that if we got the answer, I think it would bridge communities. I think it's an important thing that we need to ask and we need to find out.
I think they probably just say, okay, we tried.

Speaker 1 You can be a born rabbi, you know?

Speaker 1 Well, yeah.

Speaker 2 But isn't that so much, Ben, and it's part of the silliness and also a good thing.

Speaker 2 Isn't so much of studying studying to be a rabbi learning how to answer such questions like the yes if like a soup has 1 60th pork in it it's still considered kosher like right isn't that part of what you learn at eyeshiva

Speaker 3 Keziat is like there's like a level of if you accidentally ate something non-kosher there's a level where it's okay. So if you didn't know that it had 1 60th pork, it's probably totally fine.

Speaker 3 But yes, like the fundamentals of Judaism are asking these ridiculous questions and finding answers to them. And I think it's what makes the religion so interesting.

Speaker 3 I would love to know the answer to that. I have to consult a rabbi.

Speaker 2 I think I've heard, and I think this might be Ari Shafir, the comedian, but he, I think it's even if you know it's 160th pork, at that ratio,

Speaker 2 God goes, hey, enjoy.

Speaker 2 Enjoy, enjoy the little little extra flavor.

Speaker 1 You tried your best. Interesting.
You tried your best. Listen.

Speaker 2 What do you think Trump's going to do about the Epstein files?

Speaker 1 Oh, my God.

Speaker 3 Let's start light.

Speaker 1 Shout out, Jeffy Epps.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I honestly, I mean, I don't know if it's a serious question or not, but

Speaker 1 I will say that Donald Trump is so good. Donald Trump is so good at controlling what the media is focused on.

Speaker 1 I would argue Donald Trump is very good at controlling what the average American is kind of willing to bite into.

Speaker 1 And then he kind of shapes the media narrative around what he already knows are going to be good media bites and just kind of keeps feeding everybody.

Speaker 1 I honestly think, and I say this because I think it's scarier than what most people think. I actually think Donald Trump is quite smart.

Speaker 1 And it's so easy to look at a guy like that and think that he's not smart.

Speaker 1 But because he continues to keep us focused on what he wants us to focus on, either he's smart or somebody in his circle of influence is quite smart.

Speaker 1 And he had to find the smart person to keep, to trust in. So

Speaker 1 there's something there that's really interesting to me because

Speaker 1 if you even look at what we're doing in the Caribbean right now with our military buildup in the Caribbean, we're all looking at this and what are we being told? Narco-terrorists in Venezuela.

Speaker 1 If you look at that question logically, it makes zero sense. And yet everybody is thinking that that's what we're doing in the Caribbean, right?

Speaker 1 Less than 15% of cocaine comes through Venezuela. 100% of cocaine flows, well, not 100%, something like 85% of cocaine flows into the United States.

Speaker 1 The remainder goes to Europe, primarily to predominant markets. And the vast majority, 90-ish percent of the cocaine that comes to the United States goes through Mexico.

Speaker 1 All of the fentanyl goes through Mexico. So why are we focusing on Venezuela at all? Why do we even have a term narcoteric?

Speaker 3 Doesn't it?

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Makes you think. That's right.
That's what we do on the good guys. Say more about it.
We try not to.

Speaker 1 It makes me think.

Speaker 3 It absolutely makes me think. I don't know what I'm thinking about, but it makes me think.

Speaker 1 Don't hurt yourself.

Speaker 1 I just short circuit it.

Speaker 2 Okay, so if you have nothing to hide, why not release the files?

Speaker 1 So I think that the real win here for Donald Trump is to have this constant. controversy between Donald Trump publicly saying, release the files.
Let us vote on releasing files.

Speaker 1 Push the Americans have the right to know, but then knowing full well that he can say that out loud and it's not going to happen for some other reason.

Speaker 1 There could be, let's just say, let's just theorize that Jeffrey Epstein was in fact a protected, what's known as a protected CI, a confidential informant or a clandestine source.

Speaker 2 And would that be through the CIA?

Speaker 1 No, it would be through a law enforcement agency because CIA is not a law enforcement agency. This is,

Speaker 1 it's a silly piece of bureaucracy, but it's an important piece of bureaucracy. All of the tasks that government is given are split between different authorities.
Let's just say there's 10.

Speaker 1 There's more than 10, but let's just assume that there's 10.

Speaker 1 Those 10 authorities are essentially 10 different carve-outs from American law that allows the agencies to break some element of American law in pursuit of their larger mission.

Speaker 1 So CIA's carve-out has to do with espionage.

Speaker 1 We're allowed to commit espionage, which is illegal in every country, including our own, but we're allowed to commit acts of espionage outside of United States borders in support of national security.

Speaker 1 So that's our carve-out. That's our article.
That's our authority. FBI also has an authority.
Their authority is that they are allowed to collect intelligence on U.S.

Speaker 1 citizens without the knowledge or permission of the U.S. citizen.
That's their carve-out. So, someone like Jeffrey Epstein, who's a U.S.

Speaker 1 citizen, would fall under FBI's jurisdiction in order for them to collect the information they need to build a case against him. But because he was in bed with some of

Speaker 1 so many corrupt people, particularly corrupt politicians, he's also the kind of person that would make a very attractive CI source, a clandestine informant who would be able to help FBI build a case not on Jeffrey Epstein, but on 15, 20, 30 other corrupt politicians that are all funneling their money, their criminal activity,

Speaker 1 their nefarious activity through Jeffrey Epstein. And in order to do something like that with a U.S.

Speaker 1 citizen, you essentially have to grant them amnesty for their crimes that are committed in the process of facilitating criminal behavior for other people.

Speaker 1 I want amnesty and I don't do anything with it. Everybody wants amnesty.

Speaker 2 I'm a good guy. I pay my taxes on time.
I overpay.

Speaker 1 A little amnesty would be nice.

Speaker 3 Amnesty sounds great. So your thought is that potentially it's all just great noise that they're loving using.

Speaker 3 that they keep alive even though they know that they can't ever release anything on him so that they can do they can keep your attention there while doing things there correct and honestly i personally think that sounds incredibly logical because otherwise it wouldn't continue to be this rat race we we we're gonna release it we're gonna release it no you're not we're gonna release it we're gonna release it no you're not you just would stop drawing attention to the fact that people are asking you to release it and you would stop commenting on it The only way that the media continues to feed off it is if you keep talking about it.

Speaker 3 Correct. It's funny that you spoke, we spoke about cancel culture for a second, Josh.
It's the same thing.

Speaker 3 If you continue to bring up something yourself, then you're giving people the ability to continue to talk about it.

Speaker 3 But if you just put a stop to it and you stop talking about it and you stop answering any questions on it, eventually, like everything else, it probably goes away. So it's very interesting.

Speaker 3 And I think that,

Speaker 3 again, I have no, I don't know anything about, I don't know anything more than anybody else knows, but the idea that they don't have files that they can release legally and are just continuing to talk about it to distract from something else would be sort of politician 101.

Speaker 3 I think that every administration has that thing where they put your attention on something while they focus on things that actually matter as opposed to chatter.

Speaker 2 But they can release it. They don't want to.

Speaker 1 They're protecting it. We actually don't know.

Speaker 3 That's the thing. No, he's saying that he doesn't know.
Maybe they can't release it.

Speaker 1 Correct.

Speaker 1 Is my CI informant?

Speaker 1 And that's a great question, right? So the way that our government was built, we were built with three branches, right, the legislative branch, the executive branch, and the judicial branch.

Speaker 1 That's where your amnesty comes from, right?

Speaker 1 Your amnesty comes from the judicial branch, RBG,

Speaker 1 you know what I'm saying? Clinch Thomas, R.I.P. R.
R.I.P.,

Speaker 2 Coney Barry.

Speaker 2 So, you've got these Kavanaugh.

Speaker 1 I just want to let you keep going. This is pretty,

Speaker 1 it's never sounded cooler than right now. The entire judicial branch.

Speaker 1 So do my organization, judges.

Speaker 1 Sorry.

Speaker 1 So you've got these three branches of government that all combine together to make the government, but they know that

Speaker 1 they only contain certain authorities in each branch.

Speaker 1 So everything that would be related to Jeffrey Epstein as a criminal in his criminal activity and in his criminal protection would all fall under the judicial branch, which is where FBI lives. Right.

Speaker 1 But the executive, the executive branch is the president of the United States. That's a whole different branch.

Speaker 1 So essentially, the president can say anything he wants to say, or she, if we have a female president at some point, they can say anything they want to say from their branch, and it has no impact on another branch.

Speaker 1 That's how our checks and balances were supposed to be carried out. Right.

Speaker 1 So the executive branch can know that the judicial branch can't release the files, but they can still publicly say the judicial branch should release the files, even though they know they can't, because they have no power or authority over the other.

Speaker 1 It's also why the legislative branch, Congress and

Speaker 1 the Senate and the House, why they have no power over what Donald Trump does with his executive orders or what he does, say,

Speaker 1 when he uses covert action from CIA against Venezuela. Like our congresspeople have no say in that because it's a completely different branch of government.

Speaker 3 Right. So that's...

Speaker 3 So like when Trump came out initially and said that he was going to release the files on JFK, because that's another thing that people have been wanting to hear, he's able to say, I want them to release those files because maybe he means that, but he has zero authority in doing so.

Speaker 1 And that's what's same thing. That's what's so interesting about the JFK specific situation.
Because if JFK was fully an intelligence matter, fully a CIA matter, CIA falls under the executive branch.

Speaker 1 100% of

Speaker 1 what the files they had would be released by the president's direction.

Speaker 1 But by virtue of the fact that part of the JFK files haven't been released, it means that either part of them haven't been released by the president

Speaker 1 or part of them actually exist in a different branch of government, like the judicial branch. That's what's so tricky about JFK.

Speaker 1 My recollection is that Donald Trump said released JFK files and then changed his mind after partial release of the files, meaning he saw something and he was like, oh, as the executive, we're not going to release that, but we'll release everything else.

Speaker 2 But isn't that always the case of no matter who the president is, whether it's the most, you know, like an Obama type who comes in and is like this senator and young and seems like quite pure in their

Speaker 2 direction, or you have someone like Trump who had sat in the seat before and then was coming back, right? Isn't it that on day one, on, you know, at 3 p.m.

Speaker 2 on January 20th, you get sat down in a room and go, I know what you ran on. Here's what's really going on.
And they go, ooh, we can't tell people this.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, that's a big part of it.

Speaker 1 There is a specific point at which candidates are given a security brief to the level of compartmentation that they will have as president because the president still has to fall within a need to know.

Speaker 1 And there are certain areas that the president doesn't need to know until the president asks.

Speaker 2 Because they don't want to ever have the president be implicated in something that wasn't necessary for them. It's easier if they just don't know.
Exactly.

Speaker 1 And it's partly that, and it's also a prioritization for the president. There's certain things the president doesn't need to know because it's just not important enough, right?

Speaker 1 What we're trying to do against some low-level drug dealer who's dealing methamphetamines in Montana doesn't really rise to the occasion of the president's daily brief, right?

Speaker 1 So there's all these different elements that are there, but you're exactly right. You'll have 10 people running on the red side and 10 people running on the blue side.

Speaker 1 None of them actually know what's happening. And then that'll get whittled down to a primary and a secondary and a tertiary.
And then all of a sudden the primaries happen.

Speaker 1 And now you have one candidate that's blue and one candidate that's red and maybe two or three that are in between.

Speaker 1 The only people who will get the security briefing are the people who have a realistic chance of making president.

Speaker 1 So, only the two, the red and blue, the conservative and the liberal rep will get that security briefing. And it's not until right before they actually know that they're the candidate.

Speaker 2 So, that's or like if

Speaker 2 elections are in the first week of November, when are those candidates getting like brought in on official security briefings?

Speaker 1 Six weeks, maybe, six weeks before

Speaker 1 they actually get elected into office. Cool.
So, you're exactly. So much baloney.
They can promise baloney. They can promise anything they want.

Speaker 3 And then they find out they can't. They can promise free buses.

Speaker 1 They can promise free grocery stores.

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Speaker 1 Like...

Speaker 3 Let's talk more about the CIA, my friend. I want to know the ins and outs.
I want to know what they're serving for lunch. I want to know you walk into the CIA office.

Speaker 1 Like, what's it like?

Speaker 3 I have in my head, I watch Severance. It feels kind of Severance-y.

Speaker 1 Like, do you watch Severance?

Speaker 1 So, uh, so the building of CIA is

Speaker 1 shockingly disappointing, I think. The actual building.

Speaker 2 Arlington, Virginia.

Speaker 1 So, Arlington, Virginia is one of many cities in Virginia that actually comes close to the city that holds CIA. CIA actually has its own address in a place called Langley, Virginia.
Langley.

Speaker 1 Which is is just on the outskirts of McLean, Virginia, which is one of the wealthiest zip codes in America because of all the money that's been pumped into contractors who support the CIA.

Speaker 1 So they all live close to Langley, and it's increased the value of all the property in the surrounding area.

Speaker 1 So all of your Arlingtons, your Clarendons, your McLean's, your Falls Church, like there's all these little cities around Langley that have gotten been the economic benefit of all the money that's been pumped into CIA.

Speaker 1 But if you want to to get nitty-gritty and you want to be disappointed, this is like what I told everybody. That's every girl I dated before he went to bed, right?

Speaker 1 If you want to get detailed and you want to get disappointed, well, let's, here we go.

Speaker 1 There's two entrances into the CIA building.

Speaker 1 One is the front entrance. It's the main entrance that has the most roads in or the most ways in, the most ways out, and the most security personnel.

Speaker 1 The second entrance is a side entrance that is really only known to people who have been there for a while.

Speaker 1 Less of a security presence, less ways in, less ways out, but you also have to have a certain status to use that side entrance.

Speaker 1 That in and of itself has caused all sorts of security issues because it basically means anybody who intends to do harm to a CIA officer knows exactly where every officer is going to enter the building.

Speaker 1 And we've had attacks at that entrance, people who just stood there with machine guns and shot people as they were driving in. So it's a very real threat, even just going to work.

Speaker 1 And CIA is marked from the highway.

Speaker 1 It says CIA entrance here George Bush Center for Intelligence here right it's it doesn't it's not like Universal Studios but it's not far from from being like Universal Studios it's funny it's called the George Bush Center for Intelligence sorry

Speaker 1 I'm sorry

Speaker 1 it's like it's awesome

Speaker 2 it's like the the Donald Trump Center for Manners it's just a little

Speaker 2 sorry but it's George HW Fair

Speaker 1 it's the dad Sorry, George H.

Speaker 1 But so you come in and whichever entrance you come in, you come into a giant campus that's essentially two different buildings that are connected.

Speaker 1 There's a new headquarters building and an old headquarters building. So they're called NHB and OHB.

Speaker 1 And you come into these two different sides and they each have their own gigantic parking lot because

Speaker 1 the same people who work at the building can't park too close to the building. There's federal regulations around

Speaker 1 SCIFs, so

Speaker 1 secure compartmentalized information facilities, S-C-I-F. SCIFs have to be a certain distance away from vehicles in case that vehicle is carrying a bomb.

Speaker 3 I already can't work for the CIA.

Speaker 1 That's it.

Speaker 3 If I can't park near my place of work,

Speaker 3 what's there, a shuttle?

Speaker 1 Is there a shuttle?

Speaker 1 Out.

Speaker 3 I'm out.

Speaker 3 You're like the worst airport in America.

Speaker 1 I'm out. I've told this story before.

Speaker 3 You fly jet balloons to JFK. All of a sudden, you have to take a train to Howard Howard Beach to get an Uber.
This sounds like the CIA, and I am out.

Speaker 1 Continue.

Speaker 1 But continue.

Speaker 1 So the people who, for that reason, many people show up to work between 4 and 6 a.m.

Speaker 1 That's the, that's kind of the first swell of people coming to work because they want the best parking spots, which aren't great. but still closer to the building.

Speaker 1 And then the second ground swell of people really comes between probably like 8 and 10. And

Speaker 1 they park in the worst spots, but they take the shuttle in, and those shuttles will drop you off at the front entrance of the new headquarters building or the front entrance of the old headquarters building.

Speaker 1 All of the movies, all of the cool stuff that you've seen about CA, all of that is the front entrance of the old headquarters building.

Speaker 1 The marble seal on the floor, the stars on the wall, the shiny marble everywhere. Like it, that's the front entrance of the old headquarters building.

Speaker 1 There's only one place where you can go in that looks that cool.

Speaker 1 Every place else is very much like any other corporate facility that you could imagine. If you've ever walked into like

Speaker 1 the ground floor of any major office in New York City or LA, it's just kind of all

Speaker 2 blazers. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And security personnel and gates with badge entrances, and that's pretty much it.

Speaker 2 Is it private security or is it federal security?

Speaker 1 So CIA actually has its own police force that serves at the headquarters building. Is this a Dick Wolf show or what? CIA police?

Speaker 1 Now, this is a procedural.

Speaker 1 You kidding me? Sick.

Speaker 1 So good. Wow.
Wow.

Speaker 2 So tell us about the vetting process. Like from, I assume, college, like how did it come into your purview? And kind of what was the process for you to officially become a CIA officer?

Speaker 1 So I was recruited into CIA through

Speaker 1 a like a software system for all intents and purposes. I was applying for a different federal job.

Speaker 1 And then in the application process, a blue screen popped up that said, you might be qualified for other government opportunities. And then from there, a recruiter actually reached out to me.

Speaker 1 And that's when I was trying to leave the military. I was in the Air Force.
I was trying to leave the Air Force and do something other than the Air Force.

Speaker 1 I just wasn't well built for the Air Force, as

Speaker 1 you can probably see with my Hasidic mane.

Speaker 1 My hair's caught in the engine. I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 But so I was recruited in that way. But there are other people who are recruited on college campuses, just like you said.

Speaker 1 And there are other people who literally apply themselves through an online portal. So there's three different ways in, but the vetting process for all of us is essentially the same.

Speaker 1 From the time that you come across CIA's

Speaker 1 possible employment radar, you go through a series of interviews. Sometimes it's between three and five interviews.
They all culminate with

Speaker 1 a polygraph test. Wow.
Some polygraphs take half a day. Other polygraphs take two days or more, depending on how extensive your personal background is.
Have you traveled much?

Speaker 1 Have you been engaged in criminal activity? Have you done drugs? Have you not done drugs? Like, there's a wide range of people who end up working for CIA. But that's kind of the process overall.

Speaker 1 Of the interviews, there's one that is an individual interview. You and one individual interviewer is kind of vetting you.
And as you pass each round, they get more and more probing.

Speaker 1 So you go from an individual interview into a series of psychological and intelligence exams that has no interview. It's just a day of exams.

Speaker 1 And then you'll go into group interviews where there's panels of people who will put you, who will

Speaker 1 ask you questions, kind of put you through mock interrogations, put you through intelligence tests in front of the group of people.

Speaker 1 And then you have to kind of perform in each level to make the vote to get passed on to the next level until ultimately you know that you're just doing a lie detector test.

Speaker 1 And if you pass the lie detector, you're in.

Speaker 2 Oh, I would crush this. I would be so good.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 2 Will you give us one mock? Will you give Ben and I one like mock question, like a tough question that might come up in an interview process? Like, I'm talking round four, round five.

Speaker 2 We're getting close. We're getting close.

Speaker 1 Okay, so, so,

Speaker 1 uh,

Speaker 1 yeah, here's, so here's one for you.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I've hooked up with a dude. No, okay.

Speaker 1 Sorry.

Speaker 2 You got me. God.

Speaker 1 They're like, sir, we just asked you where you're from.

Speaker 1 Okay, it's all right. So we

Speaker 1 go through these role plays and they role play us for a number of different reasons.

Speaker 1 But let's just, let's just say that in this role play uh you are your uh first tour officer you are undercover you're not in your true identity that's what undercover means and you're in a hotel room meeting with an established asset so an established information source okay the hotel room is in your intelligence source's name and you're meeting with the person in that room you've been going over plans for a sabotage operation so there's maps there's red markers there's marks all over the maps where you plan on dropping bombs and where you plan on Magnifying glass.

Speaker 1 There's all the cool spy shit sitting there on the bed, right? Sick. Night vision.
And then there's a knock at the door. And the knock at the door says, let us in.
It's the police.

Speaker 2 It's room service. Sorry.

Speaker 1 Okay. Yeah.
So now, what do you do?

Speaker 2 Let us in. It's a police.

Speaker 1 Oh, fuck.

Speaker 3 The police, you, you say, of course, you throw everything under the bed. And you are no longer...
you you code switch. You're no longer this person.
You're back to who you were.

Speaker 1 Is that right?

Speaker 1 I'm asking you what you would do. So here's what I already learned.
I already learned that Josh was like, oh, fuck.

Speaker 1 No, no, no, no. First of all,

Speaker 1 Ben was like, what's going on in the bed?

Speaker 3 I am cool as a cucumber. We throw everything under the bed and the CI and the and the police force don't know that I'm undercover, right? So I'm...

Speaker 3 I'm not going to tell them my undercover name, certainly, because we don't want them digging.

Speaker 3 Because if they dig and they find out that I'm not a real person, all of a sudden the whole operation is blown.

Speaker 3 So I am my old self, or I'm quickly saying, I'm Keith Benjamin from New Jersey, and I run an ice cream shop.

Speaker 1 And it's great to see you. So, I really like, I really like Ben's answer here.
That's some great thinking on the spot. So, let me tell you what.
Let me answer really quick.

Speaker 2 Yes, yes, please. Okay, but I need a couple follow-up questions.

Speaker 1 Do I have you don't get follow-up questions? It's the police.

Speaker 2 What floor are we on? And do I have grappling hooks?

Speaker 1 Okay,

Speaker 1 okay, okay, okay.

Speaker 2 Um, do I have an asthma inhaler? Can I fake an asthma clock?

Speaker 1 I mean, that's good.

Speaker 2 How big are the air conditioning vents?

Speaker 1 Do I have a little mini screwdriver?

Speaker 1 I'm sorry. No boy.

Speaker 1 I like this. I like the fact that you're going to fashion suction cups out of like something that's in the bathroom and you're going to work your way to the outside of the building.
You know what?

Speaker 1 I like where this is going. I'll tell you what.

Speaker 2 I mean,

Speaker 3 all because you double parked your car and they asked you to move.

Speaker 1 Like, that's it.

Speaker 1 This is, this is, they see you climbing into the vent they're like is that your red volvo like we're just sliding we just want to make we were just passing by and we're gonna have to tow it like can you move it

Speaker 2 but um nice mask

Speaker 1 do you always

Speaker 2 do you always for that reason get an adjoining room Because, I mean, in theory, right, if they don't know that you've got the room right next door and you've opened, you know, the adjoining doors, like, could you just really quietly walk into the other room?

Speaker 1 So I love where this conversation is going. nobody ever wants to talk tradecraft and that's what you guys are talking right now and it's really exciting to me right so so let's talk

Speaker 1 the first most powerful I think uh exercise of really valid tradecraft was when Ben was saying uh they don't know I'm undercover this is something that you have to be taught you have to be taught this at CIA you know you're undercover

Speaker 1 nobody else knows

Speaker 3 And it's because it's like the person sitting front row at a comedy show. I never understood this.
Everybody's always worried. They're like, what if they call on me and they ask me personal questions?

Speaker 3 I'm like, they don't know who the fuck you are. You don't have to say that you're Nancy, the nurse.
You can say that you're Pauline, the flight attendant.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter.

Speaker 3 What are you so nervous about? Nobody knows.

Speaker 1 So the human psyche has a guilty complex by nature, right?

Speaker 1 We like secrets because secrets keep us alive. But we don't like keeping secrets because it makes us feel guilty, because it makes us feel like we're taking survivability away from somebody else.

Speaker 1 So it's our tribal instinct working against our survival instinct.

Speaker 1 And that's kind of the definition of all the problems of the human race come down to a conflict of our survival instinct against our tribal instinct because we are tribal creatures. Right.

Speaker 1 So they have to teach us this. When you are undercover and operating, you are part of a tribe.
But you are part of an undercover tribe.

Speaker 1 So that way, whenever the police are asking you questions, you have no problem lying to the police because they're not part of your tribe.

Speaker 1 And when you're sitting there talking to your asset, you have zero problems lying to your asset because they're not part of your tribe, right?

Speaker 1 So they have CIA helps us to identify what our hierarchy of tribal alliances are so that we can, we can execute in the field better. So when Ben was like, they don't know I'm undercover.

Speaker 1 I'm just going to, I'm going to make up Keith, Keith the newspaper guy, right, on the spot. That's really good thinking because you're 100% right.
Who do the police know are in that room?

Speaker 1 Only the asset. Yeah.
Because the asset's the person that the room is reserved under.

Speaker 1 Now, Tradecraft, if you were to have an adjoining room next door, then there would be a paper trail that would tie to your identity.

Speaker 1 And there would very likely be some kind of correlation between when the assets room was booked and when your room was booked.

Speaker 1 There'd be some kind of correlation where there's a history of you having adjoining rooms in multiple hotels at the same time across the country.

Speaker 2 Marriott courtyards everywhere. We're always getting the adjoining.

Speaker 1 We're always getting those bonboy points. I'm a bonboy platinum, babe.
You already know that shit.

Speaker 1 So you have to think about all this when you make your strategies, right?

Speaker 1 So in many ways, throwing everything under the bed and then doing everything that you can to not give the police a reason to suspect what's going on in the room is a better solution than trying to wiggle out of the air conditioning vent.

Speaker 1 Though that would have been a way cooler story. That would have been a way cooler story.

Speaker 3 And I think that was a good answer too. Okay.
No bad answers. That said, it's fine.
I'll be a CIA agent. I can't.
So you can't tell anyone though, right? You can't.

Speaker 3 Like, I would, I'm too much of a Yenta. Literally, like, I like booked a trip for my parents yesterday.
It was a Hanukkah present. I called them this morning and told them,

Speaker 3 I can't hold it. If it meet, like, if it's a cool thing, I can't hold it.
So if I, like, if I'm in the CIA, I can't just go around with my friends and not tell them and then I'm in the CIA.

Speaker 3 But you have to do that, right?

Speaker 1 How do you do that? well I mean

Speaker 1 the only people that it's hard not to tell are your family and by the time you're recruited most of us are not married we don't have kids so the only family you have to lie to are your brothers your sisters your mom your grandma that kind of stuff you can tell your wife

Speaker 1 most of us aren't married when we're recruited but uh but a vet like if you meet your wife while you're still working for the CIA then she has to go through a clearance process and you have to request permission to disclose your affiliation right so everything has to happen before

Speaker 1 if you're married before you join CIA, then your application process and her clearance process kind of happens hand in hand. Right.
But if you get married after you've been cleared, then

Speaker 1 everybody is a risk to national security at that point because you are now a cleared intelligence officer. You have need to know.
You have access to special compartmented information.

Speaker 1 And anybody who meets you, the government immediately distrusts.

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Speaker 2 But it's funny, right? Because like, imagine I'm, you know, we're dating. I meet you.
I go, I met this lovely guy, Andrew. He's a manager at Costco.
And so fun.

Speaker 2 He speaks Arabic and he vacations in Turkmenistan.

Speaker 1 Like, eventually they're going to be like,

Speaker 2 really? What, Costco?

Speaker 3 Yeah, I don't, it's, you, you can't have any real, it sounds like you can't have any like real relationships, which makes it very difficult.

Speaker 1 Well, the only real relationships you live are inside the building with other other clear data. Or with other CDs.
Yeah. And that's, it's a genius.

Speaker 1 It's a genius move on the part of the government because you basically burn all of your previous relationships. That's what I did.
I burned everybody from college, high school, the military.

Speaker 1 I just shut all those relationships down and became essentially married to CIA.

Speaker 1 And then at CIA, you make a peer group, a peer group of other people who are going through training with you, a peer group of other people who operate with you, a peer group of other people who travel with you.

Speaker 1 So you make new friends. And all of those friends have the same access by and large as you do because you're working together.
And as long as you are inside the building at Langley,

Speaker 1 you're free essentially to talk about whatever you want to. And if you want to talk about something operational, you just go into a different room that's secured for what you want to talk about.

Speaker 1 But that's why, to your point, Ben, what do you eat? They have a whole cafeteria. They have their own Dunkin' Donuts.
They have their own,

Speaker 1 they have some kind of pizza shop. It's not like a, it's a, it's a brand, but

Speaker 1 you can trust Shaq.

Speaker 1 You can trust Shaq. Something like that.
So they have their own Starbucks. They have their own Dunkin' Donuts.
They have their own fried chicken place. So you don't ever have to leave.

Speaker 1 People show up at 4 a.m. and then they leave at 9 p.m.
and they have every meal at CIA. They have every caffeine break at CIA, right? They have a museum they can walk through.

Speaker 1 They have halls of artwork that you can walk through. They have courtyards that you can hang out in.
They have everything you need there so that once you get there, you never leave.

Speaker 3 And have either of you seen Severance?

Speaker 1 No.

Speaker 2 I couldn't get past the first episode.

Speaker 3 Okay, this sounds the only difference between the CIA and Severance is that there's an operation so that when you go down the elevator bank and you reach the ground floor, all of a sudden you have no prior memory of your past life.

Speaker 3 But it was obviously modeled after, it's the same thing. The halls of the museums.
You don't, you're only friends with the people there. You only talk to the people there.

Speaker 3 It's, it's an, it's fascinating.

Speaker 1 How long were you at CIA?

Speaker 1 You have to check it out. It's a great job.
Yeah, yeah. I was with National Clandestine Service for seven years.
So that's the branch of CIA that handles operations.

Speaker 3 And what's it like when you want to leave?

Speaker 1 It's, well, it's changed quite a lot, actually. So when I left in 2014, they almost never had people leave mid-career.
My wife and I,

Speaker 1 we had just had our first child. My wife is also a CIA officer, so we got around all of that awkwardness.
We dated in the halls of CIA. We had our afternoon dates.

Speaker 1 We're over tea in the courtyard at CIA, right?

Speaker 1 So we ended up getting married, getting pregnant, and then having our first child while we were still undercover with the agency. And then

Speaker 1 when we kind of approached the agency to say, hey, we want to slow our operational pace down so we can be parents for a couple of years, they said no to us.

Speaker 1 They're like, no, your mission is the mission. Your job is too important.
You know, the country needs you kind of thing. And we, at the age of, what were we, 34, we were like,

Speaker 1 I think the baby needs us more than the country needs us. The country has thousands of other undercover officers.
Right. And our baby has two parents that are already absentee enough.

Speaker 1 So that's what drove us to leave.

Speaker 1 But when we submitted our, our, essentially our, our separation paperwork, then they administratively came back to us and they were like, we actually don't have a process for people to quit CIA.

Speaker 1 We have a process for people to get fired and we have a process for people to get to retire, but we don't have a process for people to quit. So that was in 2014.

Speaker 1 The reason I say it's very different now is because in 2016, with the first Trump presidency, you had a mass exodus from CIA, the largest volunteer separation in history.

Speaker 1 And they had to deal with thousands of people voluntarily. separating from CIA in 2016 and 2017.

Speaker 1 So there is a process now, obviously, but one of the reasons that I and my wife are both able to disclose our CIA affiliation is because we went through a process where we were, our cover was removed from us.

Speaker 1 So CIA can disclose that we worked there and we can disclose that we worked there. Whereas all the people who separated in the thousands in 2016, 2017, they filled up the

Speaker 1 backlog and their cover has never been removed. So even now, there are still people who who quit seven years ago and can't disclose that they previously worked for CIA.

Speaker 2 And I think you mentioned it on Jordan's podcast, but what becomes hard, right, is that you basically have a massive gap in your CV, right?

Speaker 2 You can't say where you worked for the last 10 years or 15 years. You can't show anything that you've accomplished.
So you're kind of, you look like a college kid.

Speaker 1 That's exactly what you look like an idiot, right? Because you're clearly not a college kid. Right.

Speaker 1 And you can't write a resume and you don't have, and you don't, and you have typos and spelling errors and you don't have any list of references. Because

Speaker 1 when CIA, CIA has to approve everything that you publish from the day that you leave

Speaker 1 for the rest of your life. So the way that they kind of prepare that is they write your CV, they write your resume for you.

Speaker 1 But the people who write your resume are like, you know, they have no idea who you are. They're just a group of five people in a little windowless room somewhere.

Speaker 1 And this is what they do all day long is they write. fake stuff for fake people.
Well, now they have to write a fake resume for you based on

Speaker 1 your cover identity identity because you have a legal obligation to live your cover even after you leave CIA. So it's not like

Speaker 1 you go to work on Monday, you quit on Tuesday, and on Wednesday,

Speaker 1 your resume says you worked for CIA. You quit, and then your resume still says you work for the undercover position that you previously had.

Speaker 2 And it's never sexy.

Speaker 1 And it's never sexy.

Speaker 1 And it's rarely real.

Speaker 1 So there really isn't any website. There really isn't any phone number.
There really isn't any person. There really isn't any boss.

Speaker 1 There really isn't any co-worker that can ever validate or verify your employment. So any standard...

Speaker 3 Can't you do what you do best at CIA and just make up another fake identity? That's like can't you just a fake identity that mirrors what you'd like to see?

Speaker 3 And then you put me and Josh on as references and you just you move on. Like, right?

Speaker 1 Like, can't you?

Speaker 1 It sounds obvious, but

Speaker 1 it takes time.

Speaker 1 Like that, that is essentially what I ended up doing with my wife because we were in this limbo where our resume was shit and nobody would nobody would consider us for a job because every time they tried to do basic due diligence the due diligence would end up dry so we decided one day we were like you know what we can't live in my mother-in-law's garage forever it's time for us to get a real job somehow even if we have to lie and fraudulently create some tool to get a job so that's what i ended up doing in 2014 was essentially fraudulent behavior falsifying records to get a job interview into a major corporation

Speaker 1 It worked, but it's not. It's, I don't know how legal it is.

Speaker 1 And I also don't know that the average person who leaves service to the United States immediately accepts that they have to, you know, fake and lie their way into a job.

Speaker 1 They're all trying to do the right thing first. It's not until things get desperate that you're willing to start breaking the law.

Speaker 2 And what about you, you talked about how once you're cleared, you've sort of gone through the process, right? But how much are they keeping tabs on?

Speaker 2 My friend worked in the West Swing and he was like, they were very concerned about people who cheat on their spouse, right?

Speaker 2 Because it's like the easiest thing for a spy, for foreign intelligence to come in and take advantage of, right? Like this guy cheats. He doesn't want to disclose it to his wife.
I got him. Right.

Speaker 2 So I catch him at a bar. I catch him somewhere out.
Say, listen, you don't want your wife to find out. Give me these three documents or whatever.
Right.

Speaker 2 So like, say, like there's, you know, people act out in certain ways or maybe they develop a little, you know, they get a little boozy. They get then they find themselves a little booger sugar.

Speaker 2 Like are, are, is the CIA actively monitoring what you're doing

Speaker 2 even after you've passed all the clearances?

Speaker 1 They don't monitor your personal behaviors.

Speaker 1 What they do is they monitor your digital behaviors. So they track what you're looking at, what you're printing out, when you log in, when you log out.

Speaker 1 They can look at all that. They can look at activity on your phone, on your ops phone.
They can look at your travel records. I mean, they have access to you completely.

Speaker 1 So they've just automated all that.

Speaker 1 So long before AI hit the mainstream here in the U.S., AI was already actively being engaged at CIA, and it was being used for anything from the coalition of information all the way through to the monitoring of the officers themselves because we're still US citizens.

Speaker 1 So even if CIA wanted to fire you because you developed an addiction, if they wanted to fire you, they still have to meet all the stringent requirements of firing somebody from a federal job, which means they have to build a case, they have to take that case to court, they have to have a, you know, a panel of peers, and that requires evidence.

Speaker 1 So that's why they have just reams and reams of information about your behaviors, what you have access to, what you don't have access to, because that helps them build that case.

Speaker 1 They don't need to spend the time and energy into knowing if you cheat on your wife. They can always track call records to see if you're calling somebody that you shouldn't be calling.

Speaker 2 What if you had a burner phone?

Speaker 1 They would be able to identify your burner phone because it's in proximity to your real phone because the two phones are both transmitting messages constantly.

Speaker 1 Whoa. Yeah.
Damn. Damn.
Oh, man.

Speaker 2 That's what, what, what if I clear all my search history and my cookies

Speaker 1 only using cognito browser.

Speaker 2 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 Man, I was in Oklahoma.

Speaker 2 I was in Oklahoma City the other day and they were like, you can't use Sporn Hub here unless you authenticate with your license. And I was like, guys,

Speaker 1 I'm out.

Speaker 2 I was like, I don't want to be on that list.

Speaker 2 Have you encountered that, Ben?

Speaker 3 Where a state has asked me for my license for porn? No. And I've been to many random states and I've never had that.
No.

Speaker 2 It's every red state I've been to as of recently.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I saw it in Florida.

Speaker 2 Florida, Utah.

Speaker 1 Is it new?

Speaker 2 Oklahoma, north carolina i know them all

Speaker 1 i think it's uh in in in florida right now if you go to a porn website you have to put in your driver's license well i don't know about all that but there's there's an authentication process now that and if you want to have access to uh 18 plus information or 18 18 plus uh content you have to verify that you're that you're actually an adult it's no longer just yes i'm 18.

Speaker 3 Josh, we got to call up Mint Mobile and get those phones. That's what we're going to need to do.

Speaker 1 We're going to need.

Speaker 1 It's still your your driver's license.

Speaker 3 No, it's somebody else's. It's Ryan Reynolds.

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Speaker 2 What are people doing in everyday life that is negligent when it comes to overall security?

Speaker 1 Oh my gosh, that's such a long list.

Speaker 2 So what jumps out?

Speaker 1 I mean,

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 the things that jump out are,

Speaker 1 so we all have our contact lists from our phones saved to the cloud. Nobody saves it to the phone.

Speaker 1 So that means once somebody has access to one device of yours, they basically access everything else you have on the cloud.

Speaker 1 So if you're talking digital security, now it doesn't matter where you are or what you're using. I mean, even if I just piggyback off of the, when you logged into the Netflix account at a hotel.

Speaker 1 If I just piggyback onto that, I'm now into your Netflix account. I'm just now into your Netflix cloud.

Speaker 1 If your family's on there, if your kids are on there, if you're sharing it with your mother-in-law, now I have access to that too. Right.
And that's just a silly example of a Netflix thing, right?

Speaker 1 If somebody actually were to hack into your phone, the phone that's in your pocket, which they can do via Bluetooth from, you know, 100 feet away,

Speaker 1 that's going to unlock everything to them. And it doesn't matter how many times you change your phone.
Your phone comes with two identifiers. One identifier is tied to your phone number.

Speaker 1 It's the identity of your digital number. And then one is tied to your device itself.
So those two identifiers, when they're matched together, that's how the system knows that it's you.

Speaker 1 But whenever you split those up and you get a new device, once those two are paired again, then that becomes the new you, right? As long as that phone number keeps with you.

Speaker 1 And that combination is how people can find you no matter what phone you're using.

Speaker 1 If you're logged in as myname at gmail.com on three different laptops, two different tablets, and two different phones, they all connect to the same cloud.

Speaker 1 So digitally, people don't even think about how

Speaker 1 transparent all of their information is. If I get onto your your cloud, I have your credit card, your credit card number, I have your bank numbers, I have the bank that you bank with.

Speaker 1 Maybe you have some sort of automatic password organizer that is only validatable through your password to your phone.

Speaker 1 Well, now I have both of those things, so I have access to your full password bank as well. Whoa.

Speaker 2 Jesus.

Speaker 1 Josh, I wish you never asked this question. Bad dude.
That's just too much information. And that's just digital security.

Speaker 1 That's just digital security.

Speaker 3 So just on digital security, we should all be ponying up and just paying for larger iPhones and just using iPhone storage and not using cloud because it's so easy.

Speaker 3 Like for my computer, for example, I didn't buy the new two terabyte because it's $500 more.

Speaker 3 I got the one terabyte because I know I'm going to throw some stuff in the cloud, but everything in the cloud is more easily compromised than just on the device itself.

Speaker 3 So would a quick way be just to have more storage on your devices itself? Because it's harder to hack an actual device than it is a cloud.

Speaker 1 Yeah, honestly, the quickest thing you can do is stop using digital password protectors. That's the biggest thing, right?

Speaker 1 Because whether you save something to the cloud or whether you save something to your phone, it's the password that grants the access. Right.
So if you literally have-

Speaker 3 Two-factor is the same thing?

Speaker 1 Two-factor authentication is another great tool that you can use.

Speaker 1 But the two-factor authentication is compromised if somebody has access to the thing that you are two-factoring, two-factor authenticating, right? So

Speaker 1 if it's a phone command that goes to your email address, if they have your phone and they have your email address, then they can 2FA you.

Speaker 1 And that's how a lot of identities are stolen, is people have exactly that problem.

Speaker 2 Well, that was Andy Cohen randomly talked about that where he got caught up in this scheme and they were like, and he basically forwarded his phone calls inadvertently to the scammer.

Speaker 2 So now when he's doing two-factor, they were getting the techs. And so it was, it was a rap.

Speaker 1 That hurts. And that's, you got to keep in mind that criminals are always one step ahead of security because their job is to stay one step ahead of whatever the current security tools are.

Speaker 1 And they're not trying to steal an individual's information. They're trying to steal anybody's information that they can get their hands on.
It's a mass market game. It's a surplus game, right?

Speaker 1 So protecting yourself is really just about having better security practices but all of those cia teaches us there's a there's a spectrum and the spectrum goes between security and convenience and if you want things to be more convenient then you're less secure and if you want things to be more secure then you're less convenient so there's a reality there that we all just have to accept if we want a very convenient life you're going to have an insecure life if you want a very secure life you're going to have an inconvenient life yeah it's like my marriage it's like we're very secure but it's not so fun i'm sorry

Speaker 1 that's every marriage i love you

Speaker 2 okay ben quickly so ben has this technique when faced with danger okay

Speaker 1 he and ben ben takes and it's fool and it's foolproof

Speaker 2 we'd love to hear from a security expert what he thinks

Speaker 1 okay so you're

Speaker 3 You're about to mug me. Okay.

Speaker 3 You're approaching me on the street.

Speaker 3 by the way i have eyes in the back of my head i can see you coming from a mile away i know you're about to mug me i'm gonna get handsy

Speaker 3 i'm gonna get handsy in this mugging too i can already tell yeah you're you're about you're about to get you're you're coming i see you you're probably still 10 feet away hello yeah yeah yeah how are you yes of course all right yes i will i'll see you soon yeah i'm i'm coming i'm coming yes yes all of a sudden i'm already in a store i'm in a store that's what i do I take a fake phone call and I'm in a store.

Speaker 3 Sometimes, sometimes I'll pretend to be on. It's usually with my mom, definitely, but sometimes I'll pretend to be on with somebody scary, but it's always the beeline to the store, phone call store.

Speaker 3 What do you think?

Speaker 1 I think it's a very solid strategy.

Speaker 1 Do you know why it works? That's what I'm curious if you would know why it works. Can you put yourself in the shoes of a criminal?

Speaker 3 Yes, yes.

Speaker 3 I think that if you're a criminal, the last thing that you want is somebody telling to somebody that they're being mugged, that they're being like, like I'm on the phone with somebody, so I can tell, I can tell on you, mugger.

Speaker 1 Okay. That's my philosophy.

Speaker 3 It's like, hey, I'm being mugged on 74th and 3rd. Come.

Speaker 1 You mugger fucker.

Speaker 1 So I think that's why it works.

Speaker 3 And yeah,

Speaker 3 it works.

Speaker 1 It works.

Speaker 1 So I love your confidence that it works. It just makes me think that you're afraid of a lot of people, but that's okay.
It's better to be afraid of a lot of people rather than afraid of nobody.

Speaker 3 I'll tell you another strategy that works wonders. My mom does the opposite of this, which is why she has a crazy story every day.

Speaker 3 I make no eye contact with anyone I don't know when I'm on the street. None, none.
The second you lock eyes with somebody crazy, you're theirs.

Speaker 3 You are fucking theirs, Okay.

Speaker 3 They own you.

Speaker 3 No eye contact from me. My mom, she'll make eye contact with a tree.
She'll make eye contact with anyone. And all of a sudden, she is lured into their trap.

Speaker 3 And she's calling me from Amsterdam talking about how she's having lunch at somebody's house that she met that morning. I'm like, mom, what are you doing? You're going to get trafficked.

Speaker 3 But no, I don't make eye contact with anyone.

Speaker 1 That sounds like a very rich life. That sounds like a very rich, retired life that your mother has.

Speaker 3 By the way, she's rich. I am doing everything I can to stay alive.
She's doing everything to live rich.

Speaker 1 Absolutely. That is so true.
So

Speaker 1 going back to your point, so the first thing is

Speaker 1 your strategy works very well for anybody intending to do personal harm.

Speaker 1 Because what you're doing when you pick up the phone, in the eyes of the criminal, what you're doing is it's a pattern disruptor. They're watching you.
They're casing you.

Speaker 1 They see a pattern of individuality or somebody who's independent in a moment, which means that you're a victim that's not part of a larger group.

Speaker 1 As soon as you connect with somebody on the phone, it's disrupting the pattern of behavior that was otherwise independent choice. So now all of a sudden there's another person involved.

Speaker 1 So just like you said, they will, you're not going to be able to say, hey, I'm being mugged on 73rd in Maine.

Speaker 1 Instead, the criminal looks at it and they're like, oh, there's no longer one person there. There's two people there.

Speaker 1 Right. So

Speaker 1 their survival instinct as the criminal is interrupted and they have to ask themselves, is it easier easier to

Speaker 1 attack this person or is it easier to wait five minutes and find a different person? Right. So it's a deterrence method.
And then the fact that you duck into a store is also a deterrence method.

Speaker 1 So those are two very strong deterrence tools that you're using to disrupt anybody who's intending to do you physical harm.

Speaker 1 The problem is if they're intending to do financial or digital harm, you just gave them an unlocked phone.

Speaker 1 So if, I mean, you're faking.

Speaker 1 You're faking it technically. Oh, wait, no.

Speaker 3 Oh, wait, it's fake. No, it's fake.
No, not technically. It's fake.
It's 100% locked. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 So, so they're going to take your phone, thinking that it's open, and then they're going to have your phone. And then it becomes a financial crime where they're like, I have your phone.

Speaker 1 Do you want your phone? Or do you want me to keep your phone? How much are you willing to pay for your phone? And maybe you're like, fuck it. I don't want my phone at all.
They're like, that's fine.

Speaker 1 Somebody else will take your phone. Now you're one phone down and that's no problem.
But that's how they would extort you for a financial piece. And that you wouldn't have time to duck into a store.

Speaker 3 So got it. That's another thing.
Anything you want from me, it's yours.

Speaker 3 My phone, my clothes, my virginity, anything you want from me.

Speaker 2 Are you a size?

Speaker 1 46?

Speaker 3 It's yours.

Speaker 1 Okay. I want no part, nothing.
So you've got, you've got one-third of criminal activity kind of nailed. They shouldn't mug you with that strategy.

Speaker 1 But if they wanted your phone or if they wanted your wallet, they still have a good option to get there.

Speaker 2 You want to see my strategy?

Speaker 3 Just don't steal my innocence. No problem.

Speaker 1 Don't hurt me.

Speaker 3 Take anything from me, but my innocence. Okay.

Speaker 1 Leave me alone.

Speaker 2 My strategy is just, I'm Josh from Drake and Josh. Really? You're mugging?

Speaker 1 You're nuts.

Speaker 1 What are you, nuts?

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 3 What are you, nuts? But I also. I think that's a sound strategy as well.

Speaker 2 Like, I've, before, like, when I was younger, like, I would just like do, like, if I was walking to a bad neighborhood and like, I would, like, there'd be a group of dudes who just felt like they were going to bully me.

Speaker 1 I would just just do this

Speaker 1 not the laughter part

Speaker 1 like and it wouldn't be like I just I you know you gotta act crazy man the Tourette's the Tourette's approach would work right yeah yeah yeah dick fuck yeah dick fuck man I could I could add that to my arsenal too yeah I could yeah

Speaker 1 on the phone on the phone fucking shit

Speaker 1 I think I just shat myself good. Yeah.
No one's going to touch you if you literally just say the words. I think I just shat myself.
They should leave you alone. Oh, that's good too.

Speaker 3 They should leave you alone.

Speaker 1 That's good. So it's funny because one of the big things that we were taught were less about how to protect yourself from

Speaker 1 crime because you can protect yourself from crime by keeping yourself away from opportunities for crime, right? So don't walk down a shady street.

Speaker 1 If you're going to a store, pick a street that's not shady. Pick a a street that doesn't have a bunch of crazy people on it, right?

Speaker 1 The only place that that wouldn't work is if you're in Portland, because there's entire blocks in Portland that are just trash.

Speaker 1 But generally, you pick the safest route to where you're going. One of the things that CIA taught us more than anything was how to get out of conversations you didn't want to be in.

Speaker 1 Because that happens all the time. And it's a significant risk to your cover and to your ability to pay attention to your surroundings.
If you have somebody, just

Speaker 1 a nervous nelly or a

Speaker 1 over

Speaker 1 engaging stranger who's like, oh, tell me about this and tell me about this. And let me tell you about my daughter.
And let me tell you about

Speaker 1 that.

Speaker 3 How do you get out of that conversation? I must know. How do you get out of it? You're on a plane.
All of a sudden, your lock screen is your King Charles Cavalier.

Speaker 3 And the woman next to you starts talking about how once upon a time, she also had a dog. How do you exit that conversation?

Speaker 1 That is a far more useful skill, right? So, what we were taught is that

Speaker 1 you always try to make it as uncomfortable for them as possible to keep talking to you.

Speaker 1 The more uncomfortable you can make it for them, then the more it becomes survival instinct and tribal instinct, right? They're trying to connect with you. That's their tribal instinct.

Speaker 1 You want them to decouple from you. That's their survival instinct.
So one of my favorite tools was always to talk about how I get air sick. I get air sick very easily.

Speaker 1 unless I have a chance to just focus on a screen or focus on music or look out the window. If I'm engaged in anything, I get very, very air sick.

Speaker 1 So I don't want to be rude, but I also don't want to throw up on you as soon as we take off. And that will trigger their survival instinct, and they won't talk to you.

Speaker 1 They might check in halfway through the flight and be like, are you doing okay? But they're not going to talk to you anymore. That works in cabs.
It works on trains. It works in all sorts of places.

Speaker 1 Basically, the I'm going to throw up on you escape.

Speaker 2 That's really good.

Speaker 3 That's a good one. Okay, I'll add that to the audience.

Speaker 1 I think the dick fuck Tourette's approach would probably also work very well.

Speaker 2 Or you just bring up shit no one wants to talk about. Like, hey, you know, do you know any good conspiracy theories? You know, like, you just be like,

Speaker 2 just some, there's just certain shit where I'm like, I don't want to talk about it, though.

Speaker 3 Depends who you talk to, Josh. Some people, they love that.
Some people just want to talk to hear themselves talk.

Speaker 3 Man, I like the puking. The puking's good.

Speaker 1 The puking is good.

Speaker 3 Maybe you actually puke. Maybe you actually puke.

Speaker 1 Way to commit. Way to commit to the story, dude.
That's called committing to your life.

Speaker 3 You just throw up on them.

Speaker 3 They ask you anything.

Speaker 1 And just stick your finger down your own throat in the process?

Speaker 1 Be like, hold on, let me just pull the trigger real quick. It's going to be easier.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Do CIA officers out in the field who are undercover carry a cyanide pill?

Speaker 1 No.

Speaker 1 We do not carry

Speaker 1 self-termination devices.

Speaker 2 What about Tic Tacs?

Speaker 1 No one do carry Tic Tax.

Speaker 2 No one wants bad breath when doing espionage.

Speaker 1 As long as they didn't come from a U.S. store.
Yeah. Because

Speaker 1 you're trying to integrate into your local culture. So whatever the local breath mint is.

Speaker 2 Can you be on Wilbutrin and be in the CIA asking for a friend?

Speaker 2 Are you allowed to be on any like antidepressants and

Speaker 1 for sure? CIA heavily recruits from people who have anxiety disorders, depression issues.

Speaker 1 They make very dedicated and loyal workers.

Speaker 2 You're looking at a lieutenant, baby.

Speaker 1 That is the Welbutrin speaking right there.

Speaker 1 No, this is the Welbutrin speaking.

Speaker 2 Were you ever out in the field undercover and

Speaker 2 thought I'm talking to another

Speaker 2 person undercover? Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1 It's called spook speak. Whenever two of us meet in the field, whether we know who we are or whether we suspect who we are, we kind of go into spook speak.

Speaker 1 And that's, it's when you... You talk in generalities that you both know are strategic generalities, and then you kind of talk around certain specialties that you both know you're talking around.

Speaker 1 So it's almost like I'm sure it happens in the acting world too. You know when you're talking to another actor, there's vocabulary and terminology and mannerisms and

Speaker 1 verbal and nonverbal cues that you're just like,

Speaker 1 this person is clearly an actor, a stage actor or a screen actor or something. I'm sure you have that.
The same thing exists in espionage.

Speaker 1 So that's how a French intelligence officer and an American intelligence officer meet.

Speaker 1 And even though they don't share a language necessarily, they're speaking in pidgin French and pidgin English, or maybe they're speaking in pidgin Spanish as a third language, but they still know with high confidence.

Speaker 1 Like, I'm pretty sure I'm talking to a trained intelligence officer, right?

Speaker 2 Yeah, like that's a very like,

Speaker 2 that's a hardy shoe, like built for running.

Speaker 1 You know,

Speaker 1 we'll also

Speaker 1 in homage to our Hasidic brethren that will one day have nice beards, the Mossad is one of the best at Spook Speak. So, when

Speaker 1 you are dealing with an Israeli, you never really know if they're Mossad or

Speaker 1 if they're trained in military intelligence or if there's some other intelligence training that they've had because

Speaker 1 they do a good job. Or really what it is, is all Israelis have a security posture that borders on professional.

Speaker 1 So that makes it very difficult to know if you're talking to a trained agent or whether you're talking to just a security conscious Israeli.

Speaker 1 It's very different than, say, in the United States, when you know you're talking to an American that has zero concept of personal security versus a trained intelligence operator. operator.

Speaker 2 Every Israeli in my life growing up were like, I can talk about it, but I was

Speaker 2 in the Mussad.

Speaker 1 And I go, Ori, you were a cook.

Speaker 2 Like, you were not in the Mussad, dog.

Speaker 1 I can't talk about it, but yeah.

Speaker 2 I'm like, I don't know how high up in the ranks you were. Should we get to Woody Nuts?

Speaker 3 Uh-oh. Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 2 This is fun. Our What are You Nuts moment of the week? It's our final segment.

Speaker 3 It's our gripes with people, places, and things, both big and small, whatever's sticking in your craw ben and i will start so you have time to think about it but there's no bad answer okay think about it ben you can be intense or it can be something on your way here something happened like right now i'm staring across from a printer and my whaty and nuts is big printer okay nobody has a working printer okay we've just come to understand that when we buy printers, they are just going to stop working.

Speaker 3 And there is no recourse. There's no recourse against big printer.
They never get better. And so I think printers are a what are you nuts? You mentioned we're living in the age of AI.

Speaker 3 We're living in the age of we're making everything better. Printers are just getting worse.
Nobody can print anything. There are no printers.
And they eliminated all of the Kinkos.

Speaker 3 There's no more staples. You can't go anywhere to print it.
Your at-home printer isn't working. So I think big printer, what are you nuts? How about you make printers that work?

Speaker 1 Well done.

Speaker 2 I like that. I do.

Speaker 2 My what-a-nuts is I have YouTube TV. As it happens, they go, listen, we are in a fight currently.
We are in a, what do you call it?

Speaker 2 We're in a very intense negotiation with Disney to continue to carry ABC, Disney, ESPN.

Speaker 2 If we lose them, we will give you a $20 credit. They lost them.
Negotiations didn't go well. They go, if you would like this $20 credit, if I would, what are you nuts? I assume I want it.

Speaker 2 Don't make it so hard.

Speaker 2 If you would, you know, if you would like free money, just go to this link. I'm like, just assume I want it.
What are you nuts?

Speaker 1 Fill out the 25 questions to get your free $20. Yeah.
Yeah, the $20.

Speaker 1 So for me, it only happens when I'm in LA.

Speaker 1 But I see all these billboards around LA that are advertising the newest shows on Netflix, newest shows that are on Disney Plus, newest shows that are on subscription channels.

Speaker 1 And I've never understood why would you take a perfectly good billboard space to advertise a television show that you only have access to if you're a subscriber. And it only happens in LA.

Speaker 1 You don't see that in Boise, in Boise, Idaho. You don't see it in Colorado Springs, Colorado.
You don't see it in Tampa, Florida.

Speaker 1 You don't see anybody anywhere spending good billboard space on a Netflix show.

Speaker 1 Because if you're watching a Netflix show, you're behind a screen watching a Netflix show and you're going to see that it's already in the top 10 shows. You're going to see it in your search history.

Speaker 1 So what are you, nuts, putting up? a television show advertisement on a billboard in only one city. I mean, LA is a big city.

Speaker 1 It's a big city, but it's not as big as the country and nobody else is doing that shit.

Speaker 3 I'll tell you why they do it. It is a complete what-e-nuts.
They do it so that their bosses can see that they're doing something. It's the same thing.
I own an alcohol company.

Speaker 3 I strategically advertise in places where investors live so that they can see that we are everywhere.

Speaker 1 Cut that out. Okay.
Why?

Speaker 3 Everywhere. Because if they walk around and they don't go to their local liquor store, you can't be everywhere.

Speaker 1 No, I'm saying,

Speaker 2 don't cut it out. That's just smart.
And I don't think you're the only person who can say that.

Speaker 1 Don't cut it out.

Speaker 3 Leave it in.

Speaker 1 Leave it in.

Speaker 2 Yeah, you should be doing it. When I was on Grandfathered, I was on this show with John Stamos on Fox, and there were two different billboards, right?

Speaker 2 There was one with just John's face on it, and then there was a single one with me and John. And it just so happens the one with me and John was a quarter mile from my house.

Speaker 1 I think they were just doing it. They're going to keep Josh happy.

Speaker 2 Could not find another bus terminal with my face.

Speaker 1 Genius.

Speaker 2 Genius. Smart.

Speaker 1 Maybe all of the what are you nuts is really just what are you smat? Yeah.

Speaker 1 What are you smart?

Speaker 3 I love that. We need a Bostonian on.
What do you smell?

Speaker 2 Andrew, please plug anything. Tell people where to go to find more.

Speaker 1 Yeah, absolutely. My name is Andrew Bustamanza.
You can find me on everydayspy.com. My New York Times best-selling book is out.
It's called Shadow Sell.

Speaker 1 I wrote that with my wife while we were both undercover at CIA. And yeah, thanks for having me.

Speaker 3 And the hair will not be here much longer so if you're only listening make sure you wake your way to youtube so you can see what all the buzz is about it's gorgeous oh what a what a pleasure it has been to have you the like the jokes the humor on a cia agent this this man is fantastic buy his book folks if you're not going to give five stars to an episode it's got to be this episode right if you were thinking am i going to give five stars or not you must give five stars this is a five star worth episode watch us on youtube listen to us wherever you get your podcasts share our clips instagram and TikTok.

Speaker 3 Mondays and Thursdays, folks. We will see you next time.

Speaker 2 Thanks, Sue. Thank you guys.

Speaker 1 Yeah. That was really fun.
Thanks for watching. What about the pro close there, man?

Speaker 1 So good.

Speaker 5 Please note that this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services.

Speaker 5 Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in this episode.