Episode 485: Mark Cuban: Why Most Entrepreneurs Hire Wrong (And Go Broke)

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Entrepreneurs tend to think, okay, I'm hiring this amazing marketing person and he or she is going to know what to do.

And then they tell that to their investors because that's typically why they're hiring a marketing person.

And they say, oh, this person's amazing.

You know, our next quarter is going to be great.

Then it's not.

Then they go to the next marketing person.

Totally.

Then they're in this hamster wheel again and they're screwed.

And it's also relying on other people.

Well, yes.

And that's the whole thing, right?

You've got to be able to solve the problems yourself.

Self-reliant.

Now, at some point, your business gets bigger and you have to learn how to do a lot of other things.

When you go to five people, it's one thing.

You go to 10 or 15, it's another challenge, you know, as you learn how to manage and deal with people.

But at the same time, if you're not great at your core competency, how are you going to train those people?

Right.

How are you going to know what the goals are for the organization and how to communicate to them how to do what you need them to do?

Right.

You know, and, but every entrepreneur goes through that terror, right?

I've gone through it.

It's like, oh shit, you know, can I do this?

Right.

Or am I smart enough or good enough or talented enough to

doubt?

Yeah.

I mean, we all have imposter syndrome.

I still have imposter syndrome.

No way.

Oh, hell yeah.

You walk into a circumstance.

I'm like, and there's named people that names anybody would recognize.

Yeah.

And I'm like, what the fuck am I doing here?

No way.

Oh, yeah, all the time.

Who would you be intimidated?

I'm not going to get named names, but yeah.

But you are people.

Yeah, you are.

For sure.

Yeah, for sure.

Really?

And it's not like an Elon Musk or whatever.

It's just somebody who has domain knowledge.

Like if I'm sitting in a meeting, we're discussing artificial intelligence yeah like i understand artificial intelligence and i've done a lot of reading so i have a good grasp of it but this person has created neural networks and models that you know have a billion parameters things that i won't even know how to start to do yeah i can understand the conversation right the concept right yeah but i'm not going to know operationally how to execute on it right that's just scary it is scary because you're afraid that okay did i read enough right because they're they're living this day to day yeah and i'm never going to catch up and and know this day sitting down and with the mavs you know with jason kidd there he's forgot more about basketball than i'll ever know right and so you just you know it just but you you're his boss technically so yeah but i you know teach you on the side i don't know yeah but you know i mean i can read and learn and add the value that i add you know for analytics etc um whatever it may be but um

Yeah, everybody's going to have that self-doubt.

The question is, what business are you in?

Because a lot of companies don't even know.

Yeah.

Like like when i got to the nba they thought they were in the basketball business i know but you changed that whole team around well it's not just a team right the nba

yeah the nba used to think they marketed basketball oh that's true yeah but you know i sat there with them i said okay name the last game you went to and tell me what the score was nobody remembers unless it was just a big game right right name your favorite dunk or shot no one remembers anyone right tell me who you were with

And then everybody knows.

Everyone remembers that.

You remember the first game you went to with your parents, your aunt, your uncle, whatever.

You're going to remember.

The emotional part.

Yeah, because that's why you go, because it's the one place you can scream and yell.

Yeah, and you do.

Yeah, and I do, right?

But where else?

You know, you're not going to see me yell here or there or whatever.

But when you go to a game, you know,

if, you know, you feel that energy and everybody knows they're part of the entertainment, right?

Because you're yelling defense, defense.

And that ball's in the air for a game winning or losing shot.

And everybody's holding their breath.

Yeah.

And if it goes through, you're high-fiving and hugging people you've never seen before in your life.

That's what makes going to a game special, feeling that energy.

And they thought it was about, you know, oh, you know, who has the prettiest jump shot?

Yeah.

You're right.

It's all about the emotional part.

It's all about the emotional attachment because that's what sports are.

And that's what makes sports different than any other business.

And I had to explain that to them.

It was just like, you know, when Apple, which has the biggest market cap in the world, has a great quarter, they don't throw parades in Cupertino.

No, they do not.

Right.

When the Lakers or Mavericks or whoever win a championship, the whole city goes insane.

It's so true.

You know, that's unique to sports.

And you have to recognize what business are you in.

Basketball is the platform, but emotion and entertainment is what we sell.

So, how did you turn it like?

So, you bought the Mavericks, by the way.

I mean,

by the way, great investment for you, right?

Yeah, it's really good.

What, $285?

You bought it for $285 million, and now it's worth like $2.5 billion.

A lot more than that.

How much now is it worth?

Like, four?

I'm not going to sell it.

Why would you?

I mean, exactly, you're not going to sell it.

But I'm just curious.

It's

turned out to be undervalue.

Yeah.

Still is.

Yep.

I mean, that's pretty amazing, though.

It is, it's crazy.

And that's, you bought it purely on just passion for bash.

I mean, I still play pickup.

You know, so that tells you, you know, I can go out before the game starts and just get up shots, you know, on my own court, you know, my own arena.

That must be so.

Can you,

would you ever, when you were a kid, did you ever think that that

was?

Hell no, never, yeah, never in my wildest dreams did it ever crossed my mind.

It really didn't cross my mind until after I sold my company and had enough money.

And it was like, now what?

Shit, yeah, now I can put my money where my mouth is.

But you're a smart thing.

Can you explain why?

Like, how did you even think?

Because

when Yahoo bought broadcast.com, you got it in stock, right?

Yes.

And you turned, you had to hedged it or something.

Yeah.

What does that even mean to get it into cash?

So it was a public, you know, when we got sold to Yahoo, we were a public company.

We paid fest in stock.

And because Yahoo also was a public company, you could sell options on it.

So I could sell calls, which gave up part of the upside, but allowed me to buy something called puts, which protected my downside.

Wow.

And so I sold calls, bought puts.

That's called a hedge.

And I did it for my entire position.

And it was

when the whole, you know.

bubble burst for the dot-com era, you know, I actually made more money.

And so, yeah, it's been called one of the top 10 trades of all time.

Of all time.

Yeah.

Because that like changed your entire life.

Well, of course.

I mean, because there were a lot of people who made a lot of money in stock and on paper and just saw it all disappear.

If it wasn't for for that, like that little decision point, yeah, you wouldn't know who I am.

I would never know who you were.

Like, you sold the first one for six million or something, like, which is not great for

a 29, 30-year-old, right?

But it's not, you know, it's not billions of dollars.

And then, like, you bought this company, you bought the Mavericks from how did that happen from Ross Pero?

I was, yeah, he didn't care about basketball.

It was a real estate deal for me.

But I was a season ticket holder, and somebody connected me.

And like, in less than a month, I bought it.

And I was like, Jerry Buss, the linker.

I'm sure you've been seeing Showtime.

Yep.

That's amazing.

And so do you go to all the games?

Unless my kids have something.

Unless, well, don't the kids also want to go to most?

Now they're probably, are they as obsessed with it as you are?

My son is becoming more and more so.

My daughter, my middle daughter likes it.

My oldest daughter, it's just

social.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Just for the social part.

Yeah.

That's amazing.

So basically, right now, it's the basketball and it's cost plus.

Those are the two biggies.

Well, cost plus.

Basketball, you know, except for free agency, basketball kind of runs itself.

Yeah.

Were you at Summer League just now?

Yeah, yeah,

yeah.

Yeah.

And I do it because I love it, right?

Well, yeah, why do people go anyway, like your level?

Like, are they just going to see the players?

Yeah, well, it just depends.

For me, I just like basketball.

Yeah, you're a different scenario.

But

yeah, you know, you've got to recruit and you've got to identify talent and all that kind of stuff.

It's just like hiring programmers or hiring videographers or hiring producers or whatever.

But you just love it so much.

Yeah, no, I enjoy it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Wow.

So what was the other?

Okay, wait, I lost what I was going to say to you.

Hold on.

I think that's basically, well, where where were we before I talked about the summary?

The thing that

about the

no, not the other thing, too.

What was the other thing I was going to say?

Just about entrepreneurial stuff.

Just entrepreneurial stuff.

I don't even remember what I was going to say.

Do you have anything else you want to say?

What were we talking about?

Entrepreneurs.

We're talking about entrepreneurs' failure.

I mean, have it.

Sure.

Oh, sure.

So for the

mirror.

Yeah.

I know.

I saw a shark tank.

I got to put that over there.

Yeah, exactly.

What was talking about like these companies not raising or not advertising and making margin that's what you talk about a lot is like what's your margin forget about the top line

um obviously with like facebook and instagram there's been an opportunity for companies to scale using ads well depends on how much money you have so the question about you know spending money um for advertising whether it's search or other things it depends what type of company you are um

you know i think for most entrepreneurial companies particularly startups that you have to know what sells your product.

Now, if you're just trying to get scale and you're selling it direct to consumer, you're probably going to have to advertise unless you find a better way to do it virally, right?

But you have to know what sells your product.

Like with Alyssa's, you know, it's...

I love that.

Yeah, it's easy, right?

Cost plus drugs, it's easy.

It's easy.

Right.

Yeah.

You know, we have another company, Wild Earth, which is vegan dog food.

It's harder because you have to explain it.

Yeah.

The education piece is harder.

Yeah, so there's an education piece.

But the challenge now is because of the changes Apple made to privacy, getting a return on advertising spend, ROAS, is much more difficult.

And so you're having to become a lot more innovative in how you sell your products,

you know, in streaming products, whatever it is, you've got to find what the most cost-effective way to go is.

Now, Part of the challenge is that learning process.

So I'm never a fan of selling, of spending a boatload.

I'm a fan of test a lot.

Yeah.

Test and retest, test and learn, because it always evolves.

And spending for search engine advertising or Facebook ads, whatever it may be,

YouTube, you're competing with everybody in your category.

And that's getting the price higher and it's getting the returns lower in a lot of respects.

So you've got to understand.

what the compelling aspect is for people to say yes.

You know, what is the path of least resistance for you getting someone to say yes?

And

you don't want to go all in.

And the other thing I'll say for startups is I'm not a fan of brand advertising.

You're not.

No, not even a little, but you earn your brand and your brand

captures an identity based off of your execution, right?

What do you mean to your customers?

That is your brand.

Let's customers do it.

Let the customers define.

Yeah, the customers define your brand.

If you're trying to show pretty pictures and people running on the beach and all this and you're kind of, you know, virtue signaling to your business,

um

that's typically a waste of money not less you're pepsi or coke or whatever and you know and then the other thing that i see a lot of companies make mistakes and they hire a marketing or finance whatever and they just do mba 101 yeah right this is what i learned in you know in finance or right entrepreneurship or my mba classes so this must be what you do right no right context matters a lot you know what's your competition doing how do you differentiate yourself and you always want to focus on your differentiation.

Business is about selling two things: how you're different and why you're the path of least resistance so that people have a reason to buy.

And maybe you can encapsulate that: how do you reduce your customer stress?

How about community now?

I feel like everybody's doing two different things.

One is like they're trying to build a community, right?

The other is attaching to a cause.

Yes.

So having a mission is all good.

Having a mission.

And, you know, community, typically with NFTs, you see that, right?

That's what I did.

I was like avoiding.

Yeah, that's right.

But with community,

again, it's got to be organic.

And it's great to set up a Discord server or set up a Facebook group and have somebody that you work with, that works for you, or you even I try to do it myself a lot of cases,

be responsive to everybody because you get to learn about your customers.

Right.

So community is great, right?

Right.

And it should be part of every business.

That to me, that's part of the blocking and tackling.

Right.

You know, it's like answering your emails or having an info email address.

Right.

That's so, okay.

So that's actually great.

I mean, that's interesting because I found like that's the hardest part for companies to do is build that community, right?

Yeah, it takes time, but it takes happy customers because it can work against the future.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Cause if your customers are not happy, you're toast.

Yeah.

Because that community is just going to turn on you so fast.

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So, okay, this is the area.

I'm not great at this area, so I'll just I'll like fake it a little bit here, but like the whole cryptocurrency, Bitcoin, blockchain,

NFTs.

So the whole, by the way, I had a lot of money in Voyager also, but

a lot.

So is it gone now?

No, I don't think it's gone.

No.

No, you might not get all of it back.

So if you had US dollars, USD, you'll get it all back.

I will?

Yes.

Yeah.

So not USDC, but USD.

There's two different things.

USD was stored, was in a bank account.

USDC is still considered crypto.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

Okay.

Cause that's like, I was mortified.

I don't know.

I got to check now because I just found out, obviously, a couple days ago about this.

I was like mortified.

Yeah, it's brutal.

Yeah.

It's hard.

The whole thing, because also it was, it was such hype.

It was such, it was so hype.

They made a mistake.

I mean, it's like, look, I've been investing a long time and I've seen companies make mistakes for things that were supposed to be riskless.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's exactly right.

And I mean, nothing's ever riskless, right?

But close enough.

Yeah.

I mean, I remember I had a bank call me.

I had a lot of money in the bank.

And fortunately, they called me and said, this bank's about to go under.

And so you better pull your money out now.

And so, you know, I was fortunate.

But unfortunately, Voyager did a deal with this company called 3ac, 3 Arrows Capital, and that it looked good on paper, but the company basically lied about their finances.

And

wow.

Yeah, because Voyager is a public company in Toronto.

I actually even owned stock.

I bought stock, you know, so did I buy that.

I'm Canadian, too.

So from Toronto.

Toronto, yeah.

So I bought stock in the company on the Toronto Exchange, thinking, okay, you know, but when 3ac went bankrupt, it was just just had that contagion.

But, you know, in reading all the filings,

basically what Voyager is saying is, you know,

we have, we have the USD is cash in the bank at their bank, right?

Right.

And so if you have that, you'll get 100% back.

The USDC and crypto, it really depends on how much they're able to collect from?

I have the other one, not the one I'm going to get back, basically.

Yeah, the USDC.

Yeah.

And I had a lot of USDC there too.

Yeah.

Because it was making 8.5%.

It was making exactly.

Yeah.

And so, and this is why I was making 8.5%.

Yeah.

Exactly.

And so hopefully, you know, if what they say in their filing is accurate, and I have no reason to believe it's not, and the judge that's dealing with the bankruptcy agrees, then they'll be able to put consumer accounts first to get

probably 60, 70% of the crypto back.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

And then what they've said in their filings and public that they're going to try to do is for the other 30 or 40%,

because they're bankrupt, the old stock that I own is worth, is worthless, right?

Right.

They'll try to, in the new company, they'll

recreate it and give stock and tokens to those people to hopefully, if it turns out to be worth anything, make up the Delta.

Wow.

So what do you think?

Okay, so I mean, obviously you're like very involved.

You invest in a lot of this stuff.

People like me and probably a lot of more, I would say a majority of the population don't really understand this whole idea.

But then, what happens is we get like not pressure, kind of pressure.

No, it's pressured.

Yeah, it's like anything else.

Everybody's making money.

Why aren't you?

Exactly.

Everyone's making all, everyone's like telling me that's like crazy monopoly money.

So then I feel like I'm missing out.

Yeah.

And then I put a bunch of money in there.

You got to fight that feeling.

Tell me about it.

Now you know, yeah.

And so the question is, like, is there a way to educate people properly?

Because you just got to do the work.

And I mean, I knew you were going to say that, but.

There's just no shortcuts.

I wish there were.

This is one area that you're going to be doing.

So one difference between, look, stocks are the same way.

Yeah.

Right.

So if you look at your stock portfolio, if you have any tech stocks at all, it's gotten crushed.

Everything's getting crushed.

Yeah.

And it's gotten crushed as much as Bitcoin or Ethereum.

Right.

So you always have to ask yourself, is the company a good company?

You know, or is the value?

Because part of the problem with the tech stocks is their valuations went too high because interest rates were so low.

And so people had nowhere else to put their money.

So they put it into crypto and they put it into high-flying tech stocks and other things.

Right.

Right.

And when interest rates have been going up over the last few months, it's like, okay, well, I can earn two or three or 4%.

Why am I going to take the risk on the, on crypto or on these stocks?

Right.

So I'll just yank it out.

And, you know, Amazon has fallen, what, 50, 60, 70%.

Netflix, 70 or 80%.

Yeah.

Everything has gotten destroyed.

Even Apple has gone down 30-some percent.

And so, you know, there's no way you can predict all of that.

You know, it's just.

It doesn't matter who you are.

Stocks don't always just go up, even though it feels like it.

And it's the same with crypto.

But for me with crypto,

there's two types of crypto tokens.

One is store of value, which is really only Bitcoin.

And that's kind of like gold.

You know, there's all kinds of narratives that say, well, if you hold gold when there's heavy inflation, the price of gold will go up.

Right.

Price of gold has gone down during all this inflation.

And so that's bullshit, but it's a narrative that gets people to buy.

And it's the same with Bitcoin.

You know, there's only 21 million going to be made.

So if there's inflation, you don't have to worry about that hasn't worked either.

But the reality is those store values are just about supply and demand.

If there's more people buying than selling, the price goes up.

Right, exactly.

If there's more people selling than buying, the price goes down.

Now, the good news with both gold and Bitcoin is most people just hold them and wait it out.

That's one kind of crypto.

And the other kind are just tokens and like Ethereum.

You have dope.

Doesn't you guys use Doge?

Doge?

Dogecoin.

Yeah, Dogecoin is just fun.

Dogecoin is like the on-ramp for crypto.

Oh, okay.

Yeah, okay.

You can use it as to buy stuff and everything.

Like you can go to the Mav store and buy tickets and buy whatever.

But, you know, there's

it's, it's like what I've said is just it's a better lottery ticket than the lottery ticket.

Because when once you scratch it, if you don't win on your lottery ticket, it's over.

At least with Dogecoin, it's got a chance still to go.

That has a chance.

So, like, so how about NFTs?

What's with this NFT?

Like,

you told me about Chris, what's his face?

Chris.

Chris Brown.

Chris Brown.

Do you see this?

He has like 100 million followers, 120 million followers on social media.

Do you mean an NFT?

Chris Brown the singer?

Yeah.

Okay.

And he sold like, what they made, how many of these?

They made 300 out of 10,000.

Oh, yeah.

I mean, it's like, it's like art.

No, it's, yeah, no, I understand what it is, but I feel like everybody and their dog now is like doing one and having one.

But it's just, it's just like, you know, anybody who collected baseball cards.

So is that the same?

Same thing.

Yeah, only a digital version of a collectible.

That's it.

And so, you know, if I buy,

and if you want to see my NFTs, go to lazy.com slash M Cuban.

Okay.

That's another company I started, right?

I was going to ask you about this lazy one also.

So what is that?

It's just a way you just go to lazy.com, set up an account, connect your wallets, and it's an easy way, you know, to put in your Instagram profile or at the bottom of an email, check out my NFTs, lazy.com slash M Cuban.

Okay, I'm going to check them out.

Yeah, yeah.

So if you have NFTs in your wallet, it's a really easy thing to do.

Yeah.

But NFTs, you know, they're like any other collectible art, right?

What makes a Picasso worth all that money?

True, but at least that I'll have a Picasso.

Not like if I were to buy a print of the Picasso, it doesn't cost me anything.

It costs me like 10 bucks, 20.

Well, yeah, well, it's the same thing, right?

Yeah.

But there are certain prints of things that cost you a lot.

True.

You know, and it's not like it's online.

Like, who cares?

Like, wouldn't I rather have it on my fall?

Well, think about it this way.

If you run out of space on your phone.

Yes.

And you have to delete pictures.

Yes.

How painful is that?

I don't like it.

It's painful.

Yes.

Right.

Yes.

Oh, there's my baby and there's this,

right?

There's value.

Just because it's digital doesn't mean there's not value.

True.

And if it's art from somebody that you respect or like, and

you can have it show up on your screensaver, on your laptop, on your PC, on your phone.

So, you know, it's just a collectible.

And the fact that it's digital doesn't make it digital, doesn't make it any more or less valuable.

It makes it easier to buy and sell, faster to buy and sell, but it comes down to supply and demand.

You know, if nobody cares about Picasso,

that Picasso is going down in value.

Like, are you buying, I get how Snoop bought Samaria and Metaverse and the way that you know?

No, I think that's a joke.

Yeah.

What was, what is this?

You know, in the metaverse, you know, if you can get people to go there,

and that's a place to, you know, congregate and hang out with your avatar.

And I look at...

Do you understand why it's so complicated?

Yeah, I get it.

You know, in this Second Life and other places like that have been around forever, it's just that the technology has advanced.

Yeah.

But the idea of you know buying digital real estate in the metaverse and thinking it's going to appreciate for some reason, other than just you know, convincing somebody else to buy it, yeah, I'm not sold on that.

So, you're not doing that.

So, what's the next wave?

Like, what's the next thing you should look for?

Well, it'll be crypto, yeah.

There's artificial intelligence, but that's way too complicated.

That's a whole nother beast.

But, um, well, that's all happening.

Like, everything is

AI is driving a lot.

Yeah, but um,

and that's one of the things you're really big in, you're right there in the middle.

No, because you got to know it, yeah, because I've got to to know it for my companies.

Yeah.

But with crypto, it comes down to utility.

Yeah.

Right.

So like with the Dallas Mavericks, if you go to a Mavs game and you scan your ticket before the end of the first quarter,

for every game, we create a unique NFT

and you get it for free.

You don't have to buy it.

You get it for free.

And if you go to mavscollectibles.com,

you can see what we have there.

And if once you've scanned your ticket in, you go to Mavs Collectibles, it'll be there waiting for you.

You don't have to create a wallet or do all this other stuff.

And you can buy them and trade them and sell them or, you know, whatever.

um but whoever goes to the most games or collects the most yeah you know we'll give you free tickets to a preseason game right and we don't say in advance what we're going to give you right we just try to reward you based off of what we see in the market and all that so sometimes like in this case an nft

is a reflection of something you've done yeah and in our case with the mavs you've gone to a game and we want to reward that and so you know by have whoever had the biggest collection i think we sent them a special jacket you know and just stuff like that But we don't, we don't say buy this so you can get a jacket.

We say, you know, this tells us you're fandom because you're going to games.

Right.

Because that's the behavior we want to reward more than anything.

Wow, exactly.

Going to games and even watching a game, you know, so that's one element.

And then, you know, there's other utility.

It really comes down to crypto will start taking off again when you can use it for some level of utility, right?

You know, when iPhones first came out, people didn't think Snapchat.

Yeah, no way.

Exactly.

You know, they didn't think Instagram.

Nope.

But when those came out, you start saying, oh, I can use my phone for a whole lot more than just talk.

Yeah.

You know, I can use it for a whole lot more than just taking pictures and making phone calls.

Right.

You know, or

going on the internet.

And so that's an example of utility where there was an application that was so compelling, people needed that platform to use it.

It was just like streaming.

When we started streaming in 1995, if you wanted to listen to the Chicago Cubs and you were in Dallas, the only way you can get those games was by getting a pc downloading you know having them all it was a pain in the ass absolutely right but people went through it because if you're a cubs fan and you're at work it was the only way right and it'll be the same with crypto so if there's an application that you know the only way i can do this application then that's what it's going to take and when that happens you'll see crypto go boom again wow well hopefully sooner than later right

like no kidding no yeah from your mouth to god's ears and then what one other thing about well actually, I wanted to ask you this only because I was curious when I was like doing all this research.

How are you able to get into Indiana without finishing high school?

Because

I was taking college classes.

So don't you need to have like a college, a high school,

you know, yeah.

So when I dropped out, I went to the University of Pittsburgh, took classes there, and they let me take those classes and apply.

That's how you did it.

That's how I did it.

And then when I got to Indiana, I snuck into a graduate level statistics class, got an A in it.

And they thought I was in the MBA program when I was 18 and I just kept on taking MBA classes and I was even tutoring people since

that is so cute what you're so sly what's your favorite book that you well fountainhead right okay that wasn't easy I shouldn't have said that well I shouldn't I should pretend I mean that doesn't mean like I'm a big Iron Rand advocate or anything I just like I loved Howard Work though yeah but that's the whole thing right Howard Work is just the big old fuck you guy I love him yeah so that that's why that's what I picked other than other than that what's like your favorite business book besides yours yeah how to win a sport of business yeah my little plug in there.

Um,

it's like 65 pages, yeah, it's like easy to read.

It's more like a pamphlet than a book.

Yeah, I want it to be really easy to read and motivating.

Um,

I don't know, probably always so much.

So, you have, yeah, always the last book I read typically.

Um,

Signal and Noise, which is a book about statistics, um,

was good.

Fun.

Um, the Master Algorithm, which is about AI, was good.