The Escape

Speaker 1 This is an iHeart podcast.

Speaker 4 Are your AI agents helping users or just creating more work?

Speaker 2 If you can't compare your users' workflows before and after adding AI, how do you know it's even paying off?

Speaker 3 Pendo Agent Analytics is the first tool to connect agent prompts and conversations to downstream outcomes like time saved, so you know what's working and what to fix.

Speaker 9 Start improving agent performance at pendo.io/slash podcast.

Speaker 13 That's pendo.io slash podcast.

Speaker 14 Black Friday is happening now at the Home Depot, which means it's time to get your home ready for all your holiday moments and traditions. Hi!

Speaker 14 Right now you can bring home holiday magic with our wide assortment of dazzling pre-lit trees under $99.

Speaker 14 Spend more time creating memories and less time assembling with Quick Connect technology that makes it easy to set up your new tree in a few clicks. Wow.

Speaker 14 Hurry in for Black Friday happening now at the Home Depot.

Speaker 15 Ah, greetings from my bath, festive friends. The holidays are overwhelming, but I'm tackling this season with PayPal and making the most of my money.

Speaker 16 Getting 5% cash back when I pay in four.

Speaker 15 No fees, no interest.

Speaker 3 I used it to get this portable spa with jets.

Speaker 18 Now the bubbles can cling to my sculpted but pruny body. Make the most of your money this holiday with PayPal.

Speaker 17 Save the offer in the app. N1231, see paypal.com slash promo terms points give your renee for cash and more paying for subject to terms and approval.

Speaker 19 Paypal Inc. and MLS 910457.

Speaker 1 We know no one's journey is the same. That's why Delta Sky Miles moves with you.

Speaker 1 From earning miles on reloads for coffee runs, shopping, and things you do every day to connecting you to new experiences.

Speaker 1 A Sky Miles membership fits into your lifestyle, letting you do more of what makes you you. It's more than travel.
It's the membership that flies, dines, streams, rides, and arrives with with you.

Speaker 1 Because when you have a membership that's as unique as you are, there's no telling where your journey will take you next. Learn more at delta.com slash skymiles.

Speaker 21 One thing I learned in representing people at the state hospital and sort of representing people at the state penitentiaries, as Americans,

Speaker 21 We have taught ourselves that freedom is the most important thing in the world. We want our freedom.

Speaker 21 We don't want to be in prison or a state hospital, so it's not surprising that someone would want to escape. It didn't do much other than add to her mystique.

Speaker 21 She had the ability to jump over a fence that had lots of barbed wire on the top

Speaker 21 and physically be able to do that.

Speaker 24 My name is Stephen Gorham, G-O-R-H-A-M.

Speaker 24 I'm an attorney in Salem. I've been an attorney since 1975.

Speaker 24 I went to Cornell University as an undergrad.

Speaker 21 And then as a graduate, I went to as a law

Speaker 21 school, I went to Willamette University in Salem, Oregon,

Speaker 21 where I have been practicing since 1975.

Speaker 25 Steve represented Diane Downs as her post-conviction attorney.

Speaker 25 Post-conviction attorneys represent a client after the verdict and will typically assist a guilty party in making the case that they were not adequately represented by their counsel in the courtroom.

Speaker 25 They try to help them appeal the verdict or provide other post-conviction relief.

Speaker 21 My first step in representing somebody at the time in a post-conviction was to go visit them.

Speaker 21 So I'm sure that Diane was in the Oregon's Correctional Center here in Salem. It happens to be about a mile from my office on State Street.

Speaker 21 The women's prison was built right next to the Oregon State Penitentiary, right outside their wall.

Speaker 21 The Oregon State Penitentiary was built in the 1800s sometime and it's a walled prison and they built the women's prison right outside the wall. And the women's prison was a one-story

Speaker 21 building with a fence around it.

Speaker 21 They had a small yard that was outside the building.

Speaker 21 You could see the yard from State Street because it's right off of State Street. And it was surrounded by

Speaker 21 a tall

Speaker 21 chain-length fence with barbed wire on the top.

Speaker 25 But that's not where our story in this episode really begins. Shortly after Steve took on Diane as a client, she escaped from prison.

Speaker 21 So, also in 1987, that's when Diane escaped. She jumped over the fence.

Speaker 21 She knew some people.

Speaker 21 She had

Speaker 21 other inmates at the Oregon State Women's Correctional Center,

Speaker 21 new people in Salem, some of whom lived a couple blocks from the women's prison. So there were houses that were rental houses on State Street.
And when Diane escaped, she got picked up by a couple

Speaker 21 because she was either hitchhiking. I'm not sure why they let her out,

Speaker 21 but they didn't take her very far. They let her out.

Speaker 25 Eric Mason was working as a reporter in Oregon at the time of Diane's escape.

Speaker 25 He traveled with a photographer around the area to find potential places Diane could have escaped to, hoping to be among the first to figure out her whereabouts.

Speaker 23 She's at Oregon Women's Correctional Facility and doing

Speaker 23 the rest of her life there.

Speaker 23 And,

Speaker 23 you know, it's not the most high

Speaker 23 security max facility in the world there. There's a couple of chain link fences, and

Speaker 23 today it's closed. But at the time,

Speaker 23 you know, it was where

Speaker 23 all kinds of women involved in strange crimes were being held. And so she's been there a while.
And I think life is just

Speaker 23 grinding on for Diane.

Speaker 23 And just down the street, I mean, literally blocks

Speaker 23 from the Women's Correctional for Center are two guys that are semi-homeless, working poor, who are there.

Speaker 23 And

Speaker 23 crazy as it is, once again, my path crosses these two people as I'm devoting and donating some time down at the Union Gospel Mission to make dinner and do some other things there for them.

Speaker 23 And I meet these two guys.

Speaker 26 Wayne and Bob.

Speaker 23 Wayne and Bob. And, you know, I strike a conversation at the dinner hour with them.
And they're two very interesting guys.

Speaker 23 And so they begin to to tell me about their life.

Speaker 23 And the reason I went to go visit their house was because they were sources of information about how the world of drugs worked in this town.

Speaker 25 So you saw them as a stringer, potentially?

Speaker 23 Well, I saw them as

Speaker 23 people who needed help, and obviously they needed help from the Union Gospel Mission. But they also wanted to tell me stories, and they knew I was a reporter.

Speaker 23 And so I got to know them in the months leading up to to her escape. So when

Speaker 23 the escape happens and she goes over the wire, it's like, wow, she's got some guts to go straight over the fence.

Speaker 25 How tall is this fence?

Speaker 23 I'm thinking, you know, 14, 18 feet or so.

Speaker 23 She goes up and over the top of it and is out and gone.

Speaker 23 And

Speaker 23 day goes by and two days goes by. And I'm thinking, wow, she might have actually

Speaker 23 escaped and got away with it. And so every day the assignment was be the first to find Diane and get it on TV.
And if you can't, make sure you get her arrested, being walked in.

Speaker 23 And so we were driving everywhere. Myself and the photographer, I remember this.
We were thinking, okay, she could be out in farm country. She could be living down by the Willamette River.

Speaker 23 She could be trying to find the next guy already.

Speaker 23 And so we were we were trying to check off all the boxes of things we'd done. And I said to the photographer, you rode around each day with a photog.

Speaker 23 I said, wouldn't it be weird if she ended up at Wayne's house along the river,

Speaker 23 just a few blocks from the women's correctional center the prison and darn it that's where she was

Speaker 25 eric offered to show me the area firsthand so we got in his car and toured the area near the prison where diane fled so and then there's mill creek you can see mill creek

Speaker 23 and then on the other side of mill creek is the women's facility and you can see That fence there.

Speaker 25 Yeah, I see that barbed wire fence. That's pretty intense.

Speaker 23 Yeah, and so at the time, though,

Speaker 23 it was not as well fortified as it is now.

Speaker 23 And Diane just basically climbed it, hopped over, and kept going.

Speaker 25 I was surprised at how the prison was like a modern-day castle with a river moat.

Speaker 23 There's

Speaker 23 big

Speaker 23 open

Speaker 23 brush on three sides.

Speaker 23 of the place and you'd expect,

Speaker 23 you would have thought

Speaker 23 that

Speaker 23 if someone wanted to get out of town fast, they'd head towards the railroad tracks and into

Speaker 23 a boxcar or anything getting out of town and taken off. But that's not what was going to happen here.

Speaker 23 And then the state police office where they brought her in

Speaker 23 was right over here.

Speaker 23 And

Speaker 23 that's where I first saw Bob and Wayne

Speaker 23 being led away

Speaker 23 almost as if,

Speaker 23 you know, they were on the same perp walk as Diane Downs, but they were all together right here.

Speaker 25 I wanted to know what Bob and Wayne were like, these two men who harbored Diane after her escape.

Speaker 23 Bob was, you know, studious looking and, you know, had glasses and kind of looked like a computer geek.

Speaker 23 And Wayne was a fairly decent looking individual and looked like he could be a landscaper, you know, in Southern California.

Speaker 23 And they really did have little odd jobs every day that they would do, but they never really made enough money to have a nice place.

Speaker 23 And so they had this tiny little hovel along Mill Creek and then would go down and have dinner at the Union Gospel Mission. And that was their life.
So to have...

Speaker 23 a notorious convicted killer show up in the middle of the night at their house, you know, know, it was quite a surprise, but you know, they certainly weren't going to throw her out either.

Speaker 23 I think what was later determined was that she used the creek,

Speaker 23 Mill Creek,

Speaker 23 to be able to

Speaker 23 confound the dogs. And she knew enough about tracking that she went down that creek.
And so I think one of the first things she did is she got rid of her clothes and

Speaker 23 I think left them in the water. I'm not sure how, what level of nakedness that she was.

Speaker 23 But when she

Speaker 23 showed up at Bob and Wayne's place, she was cold.

Speaker 23 didn't have her clothes or most of them and just needed to get warm in a place to stay. And I believe, and I'm going to have to go back to check to see this is true,

Speaker 23 that

Speaker 23 she had some correspondence

Speaker 23 with

Speaker 23 people outside the prison. It was a pen pal.
And I'm not sure how that worked into it, but they finally looked at her tablet and began to figure out who she'd been talking with.

Speaker 23 And so that's what helped them

Speaker 23 figure out part of, you know, what her plans were and how she was getting out and whatnot.

Speaker 25 It was reported, though, that Wayne said he fell in love with her.

Speaker 23 Yes.

Speaker 23 And so

Speaker 23 I remember Wayne

Speaker 23 almost thinking and saying things to the effect of,

Speaker 23 I couldn't believe my good fortune.

Speaker 23 You know, here I am, a marginally employed but mostly homeless man in Salem, Oregon, and

Speaker 23 the woman of my dreams comes walking through the door almost half naked.

Speaker 4 Are your AI agents helping users or just creating more work?

Speaker 2 If you can't compare your users' workflows before and after adding AI, how do you know it's even paying off?

Speaker 3 Pendo Agent Analytics is the first tool to connect agent prompts and conversations to downstream outcomes like time saved so you know what's working and what to fix.

Speaker 9 Start improving agent performance at pendo.io slash podcast.

Speaker 13 That's pendo.io slash podcast.

Speaker 29 There's nothing like sinking into luxury. Anibay sofas combine ultimate comfort and design at an affordable price.

Speaker 29 Anibay has designed the only fully machine washable sofa from top to bottom. The stain-resistant performance fabric slip covers and cloud-like frame duvet can go straight into your wash.

Speaker 29 Perfect for anyone with kids, pets, or anyone who loves an easy-to-clean, spotless sofa. With a modular design and changeable slip covers, you can customize your sofa to fit any space and style.

Speaker 29 Whether you need a single chair, love seat, or a luxuriously large sectional, Anabay has you covered. Visit washable sofas.com to upgrade your home.

Speaker 29 Sofas start at just $699 and right now, get early access to Black Friday savings, up to 60% off store-wide with a 30-day money-back guarantee. Shop now at washable sofas.com.

Speaker 25 Add a little

Speaker 29 to your life. Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

Speaker 30 Some moments in your life stay with you forever. In a special segment of On Purpose, I share a story about a book that changed my life early in my journey.

Speaker 30 and how I was able to find the exact same edition on eBay years later. There are certain books that don't just give you information, they shift the way you see the world.

Speaker 30 I remember reading one when I was younger that completely changed me. Years later, I found myself thinking about that book again.
I wanted the same edition back.

Speaker 30 Not a reprint, not a different cover, that exact one. So I started searching.
And that's when I found it on eBay. That's what I love about eBay.

Speaker 30 It's not just a marketplace, it's a place where stories live. Shop eBay for millions of finds, each with a story.
eBay, things people love.

Speaker 30 Listen to on purpose on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Speaker 20 This is Matt Rogers from Los Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang.

Speaker 31 This is Bowen Yang from Los Culturists with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang.

Speaker 20 Hey, Bowen, it's gift season. Ugh, stressing me out.

Speaker 28 Why are all the people I love so hard to shop for?

Speaker 5 Like me? Exactly.

Speaker 20 Honey, I'm easy. But you're right.
Holiday gifting is stressful.

Speaker 31 And all the gift guides out out there are boring and uninspired. Wait, what about the guide we made? A partnership with Marshalls, where premium gifts mean incredible value?

Speaker 5 It's giving gifts!

Speaker 20 A series of guides filled with premium gifts at great value for everyone on your list.

Speaker 31 Yeah, because if I see one more for the dad who likes golf list, I'm out.

Speaker 20 Right? How about something for the people who actually surprise you?

Speaker 31 With categories like best gifts for the mom whose idea of a sensible walking shoe is a stiletto, ps, she wants a pair of stilettos.

Speaker 20 Or best gifts for me that were so thoughtful I really shouldn't have.

Speaker 31 Dying to see what those are.

Speaker 20 And you won't believe their prices.

Speaker 31 Just wait till you see what else is in there. It's basically a one-stop shop for everyone you know.

Speaker 20 I started bookmarking half the list for myself, honestly.

Speaker 31 This is the guy for the 2025 holiday gifting season.

Speaker 20 Check out the guide on marshalls.com.

Speaker 5 It's giving gifts.

Speaker 27 Gift the good stuff at Marshalls.

Speaker 25 From what I read with Wayne, it sounded like Wayne and Diane had a relationship. Diane was sleeping with Wayne, so I don't think he would easily give her up if that was the case.

Speaker 23 That's true. I think Wayne was

Speaker 23 the type of guy who was street smart and really didn't like snitches or people that turned other people in. And so, yeah, I would imagine he kept things pretty quiet.

Speaker 23 What I really can't believe is that

Speaker 23 given the search that was done,

Speaker 23 that for those days following the escape, she stayed right where she was and no one found her.

Speaker 23 That's the part that's amazing,

Speaker 23 that she was able to basically hide right here in plain sight.

Speaker 22 Let's see, I think it's...

Speaker 23 Okay, so here's where we go over the creek. You can see it's very vegetated down there.
And someone just walking up that creek would have

Speaker 23 tried to find someone's back porch,

Speaker 23 which which she did.

Speaker 25 So, this neighborhood is cute. It looks like it's an older neighborhood with little bungalows.

Speaker 25 That actually looks very different than what I thought it would look like in my head because these houses are just adorable, like painted little ladies.

Speaker 23 Right. And then the ones that are right on the creek,

Speaker 23 some of them are

Speaker 23 just

Speaker 23 like an outbuilding to another house.

Speaker 25 Oh, okay. I see here at the creek.

Speaker 23 Some of these see this little building here.

Speaker 25 Oh, yeah. It looks like an outhouse

Speaker 23 attached to this house. It's just a little outbuilding.

Speaker 25 Like a shed.

Speaker 23 And that's what those two, it was very much like a shed. And you can see the water.

Speaker 23 You know, someone could just sort of swim along this creek and

Speaker 23 their

Speaker 23 scent.

Speaker 23 You couldn't follow that trail. And I think that's,

Speaker 23 I think that's what she was able to do.

Speaker 25 After she was captured, Diane's brother James was one of the only people close to her who was able to speak to her about the escape.

Speaker 32 I wish she'd call me.

Speaker 33 That's what I said at the time, actually.

Speaker 32 I remember it. I was working,

Speaker 33 and I was working at a place in San Joaquin Valley, California. You know, I wanted to take her to Canada or take her to Mexico or just take her away from here and to where she'd be safe.

Speaker 33 But yeah,

Speaker 26 she didn't obviously.

Speaker 25 What did you think when she was found?

Speaker 32 I've had conversations with her about this.

Speaker 33 I thought it's not surprising she was caught, I guess.

Speaker 32 You know, she's looking for affection. She's looking for love.
You know, she's just looking to be held and tell everything's going to be okay.

Speaker 32 You know, and I guess maybe that's why I wanted her to call me. so I could tell her that.

Speaker 25 What were your conversations about about that time that she escaped?

Speaker 5 She scaled over the walls and took off

Speaker 33 and she was going to go there and she said,

Speaker 33 oh my God,

Speaker 32 what do I do now?

Speaker 5 You know what I mean?

Speaker 33 Best laid plans. It's like she get over and it's like, oh,

Speaker 32 shit.

Speaker 32 Where am I going to go?

Speaker 33 And I mean, even if you go to the house you have in mind to go to, it's like, what's your next, her next plan was to find the person that did this.

Speaker 33 And every time she said that to herself, it's like how do you do that?

Speaker 26 You know what I mean?

Speaker 33 And so

Speaker 32 she got to this person's house and was shacking up with this guy and

Speaker 33 never got to the part of finding the person that did this.

Speaker 32 Well, she also had tons of authorities looking for her.

Speaker 5 So I don't know. That's what I mean.

Speaker 32 It's like you get over the fence and it's like, oh my goodness gracious, what do you do?

Speaker 32 I can't even fathom like the fence is 16 foot tall with circular razor wire on the top of it. There's two of them.

Speaker 32 How did she do it?

Speaker 33 She

Speaker 33 threw something over the top and just climbed over.

Speaker 32 Literally, she just climbed over two 16-foot fences with circular, not barbed wire, but razor wire on top of them.

Speaker 25 Once caught, Diane was transferred to another prison under the Interstate Compact, likely to prevent the Oregon Women's Penitentiary from receiving any additional public attention that arose from her presence there.

Speaker 21 You know, they sent her to New Jersey after her escape, which is semi-surprising.

Speaker 21 It's not so surprising that they sent her out of town because at the time, our women's prison was, you know,

Speaker 21 not the most secure. And the Interstate Compact is basically

Speaker 21 like baseball trading or football trading. You know, you trade an inmate for another inmate, and that's pretty much what it is.

Speaker 34 I read records that

Speaker 34 there was a lot of rejections for who would house Diane Downs after the escape, and that New Jersey said we will take Diane if we could send you two inmates when we have the need, when the need arises.

Speaker 21 Yeah. You know, and I'm I'm relatively sure they they moved Diane to get her out of town so that the publicity wasn't always there.

Speaker 21 And again, originally because she had escaped. And a lot of times

Speaker 21 they do the prisoner swaps or the interstate compact to try to get a new environment for the inmate where they will, you know, maybe under different circumstances in a different prison.

Speaker 21 state, they will, you know, get better, whatever that means. I'm sure no one wanted to take Diane because of the publicity.
And then, you know, she tried to escape that prison.

Speaker 34 Oh, I didn't know that.

Speaker 21 Again,

Speaker 21 oh, yeah, you didn't know she tried to escape New Jersey? No.

Speaker 21 But while she was in New Jersey, she

Speaker 21 had a personal relationship with a man who was a helicopter pilot

Speaker 21 who

Speaker 21 was

Speaker 21 going to

Speaker 21 steal a helicopter and land in New Jersey Jersey and escape with Diane again.

Speaker 21 And he gave that conspiracy up, I'm not going to get this right, you know, a couple months before it was supposed to go into practice

Speaker 21 because

Speaker 21 of something that happened.

Speaker 21 He didn't get caught. He confessed and turned himself in.
And he may have been from Seattle.

Speaker 21 A lot of these details aren't there. But I know I I went to see her in the New Jersey prison after she was there

Speaker 21 before this escape attempt because I was back visiting my family and it was just easy for me to do, to visit her.

Speaker 21 And I wanted to visit her just because, you know,

Speaker 21 mainly to see what a New Jersey prison looked like. And then when this escape attempt happened,

Speaker 21 it was just weird, you know, and that's when she got sent to the California prison, which is, as I understand it, and I don't know that this is true, the worst women's prison in the world, or at least in the United States.

Speaker 34 I'll have to do some research on that. I know that I was talking to the infamous Betty Boderick,

Speaker 34 and she's housed with Diane.

Speaker 34 Well, not they're not like cellmates or anything, but they actually know each other in that prison, which is interesting to me, but how you know different inmates are connected.

Speaker 21 Yeah, and

Speaker 21 as I said, I went through some of these records

Speaker 21 on Ojin,

Speaker 21 and some of the things that she was claiming.

Speaker 21 Again, I didn't go into any of the details, but she's claiming, you know, that she was

Speaker 21 a cellmate of hers and this boderic lady.

Speaker 21 You know, I think dreaming up all sorts of conspiracy theories concerning who she's been sell with.

Speaker 25 Initially, Steve reserved his opinions on Diane's guilt, going solely off the court's verdict.

Speaker 25 His principles as an attorney prevented him from taking certain actions if a client directly admitted guilt to him.

Speaker 21 Well, her daughter said that she was the perpetrator. Diane always said, at least at that time, that it was the bushy-haired stranger.

Speaker 21 I believe I'm an ethical attorney.

Speaker 21 And

Speaker 21 an ethical attorney can't have his client get on the stand and lie.

Speaker 21 So if your client tells you that they're guilty,

Speaker 21 you can't put them on the stand and

Speaker 21 have them say, I'm not guilty.

Speaker 21 And when I say guilty and not guilty, I'm talking about the individual facts of the case.

Speaker 27 Right.

Speaker 21 A defendant has the absolute right to take the stand and defend themselves in a criminal case.

Speaker 21 So if you get somebody who tells you, I'll just use an example of a killing. If somebody tells you, yeah, I shot this person, they can't get on the stand and say, I didn't shoot the person.

Speaker 21 If they do get on the stand and say, I didn't shoot the person, and they've already told you and you believe that they did shoot the person, while they have the absolute right to get on the stand, you can ask them only one question.

Speaker 34 And what's that question?

Speaker 21 That question is: what happens?

Speaker 21 You can't ask them any other questions.

Speaker 21 And you have to be careful how you present the case other than that.

Speaker 21 So,

Speaker 21 knowing that from the beginning of my career and knowing that I was an ethical person,

Speaker 21 one of the things I try not to do when I first start to represent somebody is say, are you guilty? A criminal defense attorney's obligations are

Speaker 21 99% to the clients, that 1% is to the court, that you can't let your client lie to the court. So

Speaker 21 I basically tell them that up front so they know the ground rules of what they should be telling me and what they shouldn't be telling me.

Speaker 34 You represented both Diane, Becky's mom, and then my dad. What stands out to you about their personalities? Are they similar?

Speaker 34 Would you say they're both narcissists? Or what would be your assessment of the two?

Speaker 21 Well, I would say Diane was a narcissist, and I think your dad was too.

Speaker 21 You know, it's hard to

Speaker 21 your dad owned up to the crimes he did, which took a lot of guts. I'll say it this way: if Diane is guilty, which

Speaker 21 in all likelihood she is, she never owned up to the crime.

Speaker 4 Are your AI agents helping users or just creating more work?

Speaker 2 If you can't compare your users' workflows before and after adding AI, how do you know it's even paying off?

Speaker 3 Pendo Agent Analytics is the first tool to connect agent prompts and conversations to downstream outcomes like time saved, so you know what's working and what to fix.

Speaker 9 Start improving agent performance at pendo.io/slash slash podcast.

Speaker 13 That's pendo.io slash podcast.

Speaker 29 Life gets messy. Spills, stains, and kid chaos.
But with Anibay, cleaning up is easy. Our sofas are fully machine washable, inside and out, so you never have to stress about messes again.

Speaker 29 Made with liquid and stain-resistant fabrics, that means fewer stains and more peace of mind.

Speaker 29 Designed for real life, our sofas feature changeable fabric covers, allowing you to refresh your style anytime. Need flexibility? Our modular design lets you rearrange your sofa effortlessly.

Speaker 29 Perfect for cozy apartments or spacious homes. Plus, they're earth-friendly and built to last.
That's why over 200,000 happy customers have made the switch.

Speaker 29 Get early access to Black Friday pricing right now. Sofas started just $699.

Speaker 29 Visit washable sofas.com now and bring home a sofa made for life. That's washablesofas.com.
Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

Speaker 30 Some moments in your life stay with you forever.

Speaker 30 In a special segment of On Purpose, I share a story about a book that changed my life early in my journey and how I was able to find the exact same edition on eBay years later.

Speaker 30 There are certain books that don't just give you information, they shift the way you see the world. I remember reading one when I was younger that completely changed me.

Speaker 30 Years later, I found myself thinking about that book again. I wanted the same edition back.
Not a reprint, not a different cover, that exact one. So I started searching.

Speaker 30 And that's when I found it on eBay. That's what I love about eBay.
It's not just a marketplace, it's a place where stories live. Shop eBay for millions of finds, each with a story.
eBay.

Speaker 30 Things people love.

Speaker 30 Listen to on purpose on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Speaker 20 This is Matt Rogers from Lost Culture Eastas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang.

Speaker 31 This is Bowen Yang from Lost Culture East with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang.

Speaker 20 Hey, Bowen, it's gift season.

Speaker 31 Oh, stressing me out.

Speaker 28 Why are all the people I love so hard to shop for?

Speaker 5 Like me? Exactly.

Speaker 20 Honey, I'm easy. But you're right.
Holiday gifting is stressful.

Speaker 31 And all the gift guides out there are boring and uninspired.

Speaker 27 Wait.

Speaker 31 What about the guide we made? In partnership with Marshalls, where premium gifts mean incredible value?

Speaker 5 It's giving gifts!

Speaker 20 A series of guides filled with premium gifts at great value for everyone on your list.

Speaker 31 Yeah, because if I see one more for the dad who likes golf list, I'm out.

Speaker 20 Right? How about something for the people who actually surprise you?

Speaker 31 With categories like best gifts for the mom whose idea of a sensible walking shoe is a stiletto, ps, she wants a pair of stilettos.

Speaker 20 Or best gifts for me that were so thoughtful I really shouldn't have.

Speaker 31 Dying to see what those are.

Speaker 20 And you won't believe their prices.

Speaker 31 Just wait till you see what else is in there. It's basically a one-stop shop for everyone you know.

Speaker 20 I started bookmarking half the list for myself, honestly.

Speaker 31 This is the guy for the 2025 holiday gifting season.

Speaker 20 Check out the guide on marshalls.com.

Speaker 5 It's giving gifts.

Speaker 27 Gift the good stuff at Marshalls.

Speaker 25 The main focus of Steve's post-conviction relief was the forensic evidence presented at trial.

Speaker 25 Christie's testimony was difficult to disprove, but Steve knew that blood spatter evidence was controversial.

Speaker 21 Well, again, you look at the case, and it was a big case, so there's a lot of paperwork. First of all, you have to, you know, read the transcript of the trial to

Speaker 21 understand how she got convicted and the facts that led to her conviction.

Speaker 34 And what were those? Do you remember what those were that led to her conviction?

Speaker 21 Well, I think her daughter testifying that she did it was the biggest fact, if I remember correctly. And then there was forensic evidence that tried to disprove her theory of the case.

Speaker 21 And one of the biggest parts of that was

Speaker 21 where she said everybody was situated at the time of the crime,

Speaker 21 in or out of the car,

Speaker 21 and blood spatter.

Speaker 21 evidence concerning that, which came in at the trial. But again, as I said earlier, one of the main things you look at is

Speaker 21 ineffective assistance of counsel, meaning what did the original attorney do right and what did he do wrong? And what would you say he did?

Speaker 34 This would be Jim Jagger.

Speaker 21 What would you say he did right and what would you say he did wrong?

Speaker 21 Well, I do remember looking into the blood spatter and though I remember at least somewhat concentrating on the blood spatter that he didn't do that right. I mean, over the years,

Speaker 21 there's been some controversy over blood spatter. Forensic people

Speaker 21 prosecuting

Speaker 21 quote-unquote scientists believe you can tell a lot about what goes on from blood spatter.

Speaker 21 Some people don't believe it's very scientific at all. But clearly, the state tried to prove that Diane was not telling the truth based on where the blood

Speaker 21 spatter

Speaker 21 was and how it existed in and around the car. Our case was to try to show that Jagger didn't do a very good job in putting holes in the blood spatter testimony of the experts in the case.

Speaker 21 What was ultimately her sentence from the dial?

Speaker 21 She got life

Speaker 21 with a minimum, I think, of 50 years.

Speaker 34 So she's contested a lot of different things. And one of the big issues that was contested, I believe, is that the gun was never found.

Speaker 21 I believe I have this feeling that

Speaker 21 either Diane said that the gun was thrown in the river

Speaker 21 or somehow that the gun got in the river. Okay,

Speaker 21 but I believe the police searched the river,

Speaker 21 but

Speaker 21 I personally believe the gun's in the river. I'm not sure I could tell you why I believe that, but I think that's where it is.

Speaker 25 Then came the letter. After her conviction, Diane wrote a letter to her defense attorney, Jim Jagger.
In it, Diane changes her story about the night of the shooting.

Speaker 26 Well, he's representing her, and he had it in his file.

Speaker 26 And at some point,

Speaker 26 the state asked him for this letter, and he had to turn it over to the state.

Speaker 26 And this is the importance of this letter to me. It may be not important to anybody else.
But to me,

Speaker 26 if you remember, after the children were shot and they were on the road next to the Mackenzie Highway,

Speaker 26 She's driving to the hospital in Springfield very slowly and at the trial someone who followed her I think a man maybe in a pickup truck who was following her said gee she's driving this person she didn't know her from Adam this person's driving very slowly

Speaker 26 something's going on you know so they used the state argued I think that

Speaker 26 she was driving very slowly to the hospital so that children would die.

Speaker 32 Why could you be sitting next to your children as if dying? Yeah.

Speaker 26 I can't remember how she explained it.

Speaker 26 Probably she just didn't know where she was or whatever.

Speaker 26 You know,

Speaker 26 the trauma of it. This letter basically says that somebody in a pickup truck was following her on the road.
This is before the killing.

Speaker 26 He passed her,

Speaker 26 then he slowed down.

Speaker 26 She passed him. I may not be right about that part.

Speaker 26 And then she stopped because she was interested in this guy.

Speaker 26 So you put your children in danger in the middle of the night to stop for a guy you're interested in.

Speaker 27 I don't get it.

Speaker 26 I think I knew about this letter. But if I didn't know about the letter, then I think

Speaker 26 her change in her story, and this letter is important in my mind, because it really describes the slow driving before the crime

Speaker 26 and that she was interested in just picking up this guy who was in this pickup truck. And she basically,

Speaker 26 you know, sends then after she stopped and met this guy, then he became the bushy-haired stranger and he's the one who shot the kids.

Speaker 25 The letter starts out with an almost confessional tone. It begins, November 7th, 1984, Salem, Oregon.

Speaker 25 Dear Jim, I'm not really sure how to start this letter, but I guess the best way to make an apology is to say, I'm sorry.

Speaker 25 Now you're probably wondering what this is all about, and when you're through reading, you'll probably drop this letter and say, damn you, Diane, like you have so many times before.

Speaker 25 Your blood pressure will go up, and I'm sorry about that, too. I'm sorry about a lot of things, really.
I only hope that you will forgive me for not being totally honest with you.

Speaker 25 It's just that it's so hard for me to put myself in someone else's hands. I find it hard to fully trust anyone not to hurt me.

Speaker 25 I needed to control myself and the situation, and I've been that way for a few years. It has been a hard lesson to learn and I can't guarantee I'll be cured forever.

Speaker 25 But I know now that I should have placed this whole problem in your hands and let you deal with it. But I was afraid.

Speaker 25 Silly maybe, but I was afraid you would lose respect for me and well, let me explain.

Speaker 25 The letter goes on to retell Diane's version of what took place the night of the shooting. She states that the shaggy-haired stranger was actually a man who was driving behind her on the road.

Speaker 25 According to her, he passed her and slowed down. It was kind of a flirtatious dance between the two cars, and she eventually pulled over.

Speaker 25 She claims the man wanted weed, and when she opened the trunk, he took out the case containing Steve's gun.

Speaker 25 After making advances on Diane, he proceeded to shoot her and her children one by one before fleeing. That was really interesting reading the letter, but it's really interesting to me.

Speaker 26 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 26 Well, I mean, to a criminal defense attorney, it's a damning letter.

Speaker 26 And

Speaker 26 who knows what else she had told Jim Jagger, and

Speaker 26 he obviously did his best in representing her.

Speaker 26 I think someplace in the letter she said she's told him several stories or something like that.

Speaker 26 It would have been hard for him.

Speaker 25 Though Steve tried to remain an ethical attorney and go on the basis of Diane's proclamation of innocence, the letter finally convinced him of her guilt.

Speaker 25 The change in her story from what she claimed multiple times in trial and to the press showed Steve that Diane most likely wasn't telling the truth and potentially never had.

Speaker 25 He doesn't believe she'll do well at her future parole hearings.

Speaker 21 No, and I don't believe she will have a chance. First of all, again, the parole board over the years has been very conservative.

Speaker 21 I wouldn't say the parole board has ever been liberal in the state of Oregon. So they do look at, I mean, a parole board should be looking at the person, the individual.

Speaker 21 What you should be looking at is, of course, the crime, the effect of the crime, especially these days on the victims. And, you know, it used to be the victims really didn't much matter.

Speaker 21 And then we went through a

Speaker 21 phase that still exists of victims' rights. And part of that is the parole board wants you to come clean.

Speaker 21 If they believe that you're guilty of the crime, they want you to say you're guilty of the crime and show remorse for your guilt. So the fact that Diane

Speaker 21 has yet to, you know, show much remorse or show that she is guilty, it's going to be hard for her to get out on parole by any parole board. and frankly especially crimes that have

Speaker 21 such publicity concerning them. I don't believe that she'll ever get out on parole.

Speaker 25 Diane Downs was denied parole in 2008 and again in 2010. Diane's parole board hearing took place just recently, September 23rd, and she was denied parole.

Speaker 25 On the next episode, Michelle presents Becky with the conclusion of her efforts to trace Becky's paternity and identify her biological father. Also coming in a few days, a bonus episode.

Speaker 25 The bizarre letter Diane Downs wrote to Jim Jagger read in its entirety.

Speaker 25 Although we were unable to present the entire letter in this episode due to time constraints, we feel that you, the listener, should hear this bizarre retelling of the night of the crime in Diane's own words.

Speaker 4 Are your AI agents helping users or just creating more work?

Speaker 2 If you can't compare your users' workflows before and after adding AI, how do you know it's even paying off?

Speaker 3 Pendo Agent Analytics is the first tool to connect agent prompts and conversations to downstream outcomes like time saved, so you know what's working and what to fix.

Speaker 9 Start improving agent performance at pendo.io/slash podcast.

Speaker 13 That's pendo.io slash podcast.

Speaker 5 Ah.

Speaker 15 Greetings for my bath, festive friends.

Speaker 18 The holidays are overwhelming, but I'm tackling this season with PayPal and making the most of my money, getting 5% percent cash back when I pay in four no fees no interest I used it to get this portable spa with jets now the bubbles can cling to my sculpted but pruny body make the most of your money this holiday with PayPal save the offer in the app NS1231 see paypal.com slash promo terms points give you redeeming for cash and more paying for subject to terms and approval PayPal Inc at MLS 910-457 Having MG can make cooking difficult, but over the years, I've found some really helpful tools and tips that I'm excited to share.

Speaker 29 Hi, I'm Alicia. I think cooking should always be fun, creative, and of course delicious.
These black bean burgers are hearty, full of flavor, and MG-friendly. You're gonna love them.

Speaker 35 Check out Alicia's Black Bean Burger Cooking video and other recipes full of tips and tricks for managing common MG symptoms while cooking only at mg-united.com.

Speaker 25 Ready?

Speaker 29 Let's cook.

Speaker 36 At Hill's Pet Nutrition, we know that pet parent guilt is real.

Speaker 26 Leaving too long, playing too little.

Speaker 36 New homes, new babies, waking them up when they look so comfy. Running out of patience, running out of treats, running the vacuum.

Speaker 36 You can only do so much. That's why there's hills.
Science-led nutrition to help you give more love than humanly possible. Because you're only human, there's hills.

Speaker 36 Find the right food at hillspet.com slash science does more.

Speaker 29 This is an iHeart podcast.