DNA Detective

Speaker 1 This is an iHeart podcast.

Speaker 2 Black Friday is happening now at the Home Depot, which means it's time to get your home ready for all your holiday moments and traditions.

Speaker 2 Right now, you can bring home holiday magic with our wide assortment of dazzling pre-lit trees under $99.

Speaker 2 Spend more time creating memories and less time assembling with Quick Connect technology that makes it easy to set up your new tree in a few clicks.

Speaker 2 Wow. Hurry in for Black Friday happening now at the Home Depot.

Speaker 4 We know no one's journey is the same. That's why Delta Sky Miles moves with you.

Speaker 4 From earning miles on reloads for coffee runs, shopping, and things you do every day to connecting you to new experiences.

Speaker 4 A Sky Miles membership fits into your lifestyle, letting you do more of what makes you, you. It's more than travel.
It's the membership that flies, dines, streams, rides, and arrives with you.

Speaker 4 Because when you have a membership that's as unique as you are, there's no telling where your journey will take you next. Learn more at delta.com slash skymiles.

Speaker 5 Making the holidays magical for everyone on your list?

Speaker 6 It's no small feat.

Speaker 7 But with TJ Maxx, your magic multiplies. With quality finds arriving daily through Christmas Eve, you'll save on Lux Cashmere the latest tech, toys, and more.

Speaker 1 So you can check off every name on your list and treat yourself to a holiday look that'll turn heads.

Speaker 10 Now you know where to go to make all that holiday magic.

Speaker 7 It's TJ Maxx, of course.

Speaker 10 It's shaping up to be a very magical holiday.

Speaker 12 Greetings for my bath, festive friends. The holidays are overwhelming, but I'm tackling this season with PayPal and making the most of my money, getting 5% cash back when I pay in four.

Speaker 13 No fees, no interest.

Speaker 14 I used it to get this portable spa with jets.

Speaker 15 Now the bubbles can cling to my sculpted but pruny body. Make the most of your money this holiday holiday with PayPal.
Save the offer in the app.

Speaker 15 NS1231, see paypal.com slash promo terms, points keep your reading for cash and more paying for subject to terms and approval. PayPal Inc.
and MLS 910457.

Speaker 16 I was born to Eugene.

Speaker 16 I don't remember the time. I think it was morning, but I don't remember.
June 27th, 1984.

Speaker 17 And do you wonder about what the day was like that you came into this world?

Speaker 16 I do. I mean, I wonder I I've heard she was induced, but I'm not really sure.
So I wonder what it was like. Was she in her jail cell and her water broke and she was rushed to the hospital?

Speaker 16 Or, you know, was it planned for that day? And then, you know, I wonder what it was like after I was born as she was showing me off and, you know, that sort of stuff.

Speaker 16 It's a little strange to me, but I'm wondering being taken away from her, how did that go? Because I remember when I gave my son. to the nurse, it broke me.
You know,

Speaker 16 that was a moment of just pain, sheer pain. But I knew he was going somewhere where he would be, you know, well taken care of and loved.
And I chose that family.

Speaker 16 So it's a little bit different than Diane, where she didn't get to choose the family. And, you know, she didn't have a say in any of it.
In no way am I saying she's a victim.

Speaker 16 I'm just saying that it might have been hard on her. But with her mental state, it may not have been anything to her.
I guess that's kind of what I'm curious is how did she handle it?

Speaker 16 Was she just like, okay, take my kid? Or was it hard for her? Okay.

Speaker 18 I just have one more question.

Speaker 16 Is that okay?

Speaker 17 When you reached out to Diane and asked her about what was that like bringing me into the world, what was her answer?

Speaker 16 She was acting like it was the best thing in the world, you know, and how she was so happy and she got to hold me and how much she loved me. And

Speaker 16 she didn't say anything about having to hand me over or me being taken away or anything like that.

Speaker 16 It was just that she got to hold me for a a very long time. And I don't know.
It still kind of creeps me out a little bit. I don't know.

Speaker 16 It's just really strange to be born from a person that you cannot relate to. You know, that's my biological mother, but I don't understand her at all.
I don't ever want to be here.

Speaker 16 I was about eight years old when my adoptive mom started telling me about my biological mom, about how she had done bad things. And I continued to ask and pester her throughout, you know, the next

Speaker 16 three years.

Speaker 16 And she finally got to the point where she just decided, you know, you're not old enough to know. This is something that's awful.
I don't ever want to tell you, in a sense.

Speaker 16 As a little kid, it was more curiosity than anything. I was frustrated with her and I was a little angry that she wouldn't tell me.

Speaker 16 And so I really just wanted to know.

Speaker 16 And then once I got that in my head, that I wanted to know that they were, you know, who she was because my mom had given me little tidbits, you know, that she was bad, that she was in jail, that all this stuff.

Speaker 16 And I wanted to know why. So it was more frustrating.
And I was a little bit angry when she wouldn't tell me. And then my brain went to work of how can I find out on my own.

Speaker 17 And of course, by tricking her babysitter, Becky did finally find out who her mother was.

Speaker 17 Later, after watching Small Sacrifices, Eric Mason was one of the first people to help Becky bring her story to the press and has a unique insight into Becky's reasons for wanting her story out into the world.

Speaker 19 Yeah, well, I think all of us have family secrets. We all have that crazy uncle.
We all have something that we don't want to share with the rest of the world.

Speaker 19 And so, as a story, that one day Becky living in Bend is watching Farah Fawcett in the movie Small Sacrifices on television and thinking to herself, oh my god, that is my mother.

Speaker 19 That in that sense, we all have to come to terms with what came before us and who came before us and their crimes or their contributions.

Speaker 19 And to make peace with all of it is to understand ourselves a whole lot more. And so, you know, the journey that we are all on is to understand why.

Speaker 19 And with Rebecca, wow, she has a lot of it that she can read about,

Speaker 19 watch,

Speaker 19 and that she has kind of a front row seat to this very infamous person.

Speaker 19 And in so doing, being able to talk about it in the magazine and on 2020 and on Oprah, being able to talk about it and everyone think to themselves, you know what?

Speaker 19 I think I can deal with my past a little bit better too.

Speaker 20 You know, what's been surprising to me, Eric, is that when I've been working on this case, I've had

Speaker 20 people attached to the case that worked with the children.

Speaker 20 Anybody who's worked with Christy or Danny or came in contact with the deceased Cheryl told me, why is this, why does anybody care about Becky's story if she didn't get shot?

Speaker 20 Like, that's kind of surprising to me. Like, what is she really suffering from? She was raised by a fabulous family.
Why why do this big quest? Is she just seeking fame?

Speaker 19 Yeah, that's a good point. I mean

Speaker 19 when the woman came to me who was in the film festival from Bent and said, do you want to meet Diane Down's daughter? I was like, oh my God, could this even be true?

Speaker 19 And I don't think she really was, per se, looking for that. I think she was searching

Speaker 19 for the understanding of her own life. And I think she saw journalism and getting the story out there as a way to maybe find the other missing pieces of the puzzle.

Speaker 19 And so, sort of crying out to the universe is not such a bad thing.

Speaker 19 I mean, I think in some ways it's therapeutic.

Speaker 19 And for her, I think the point of the story is, this is the amazing control part of the experiment: she was raised in the absolute best surroundings, environment, place to live, resources from parents, and yet she felt this toe

Speaker 19 from the water of that genetics, and it still was pulling on her and still controlling her, even from,

Speaker 19 in some ways, from a prison in California. There was this element there that was just really strong, this current.

Speaker 19 And to be able to fight that current, you really have to understand and do your work to figure out how to to overcome it.

Speaker 17 When we contacted Diane Downs about this podcast, she responded with a short and somewhat strange letter claiming that Becky was not her biological daughter.

Speaker 17 And even more odd was the fact that she included several q-tips enclosed in a small plastic bag inside an envelope with the words, try it, glued to the front.

Speaker 17 presumably saturated with her saliva so that we could have her DNA. In Becky's quest to find out more about her family lineage, DNA is all she really has to start with.

Speaker 17 We enlisted the help of a DNA detective to help with the process. But first we spoke to Dr.
Greg Hammakin, a DNA expert, to learn a bit about the process and what to expect.

Speaker 11 You know,

Speaker 11 my mother told me not to talk about myself.

Speaker 11 I violate that constantly.

Speaker 18 Tell your mom you have permission to brag.

Speaker 11 I started about 20-something years ago doing forensic work. Got into forensics really through teaching.
I started using a murder scenario with the DNA.

Speaker 11 But then I met Calvin Johnson, who was a guy who got out through DNA, through the Innocence Project in New York. He was released near where I was teaching in Georgia.
He'd been 17 years in prison.

Speaker 11 And he's on the radio talking. And they asked him, how do you feel about the criminal justice system now?

Speaker 11 and he said you got to have laws he's not bitter he's just a really great guy and and believes in the system still after what he's been through so we invited him to school and as he was speaking to my students i wrote chapter one of exit to freedom which became his autobiography after that book in 1999 i started getting casework because people thought well if i can you know write about it maybe i could help out with some cases so i started doing work

Speaker 11 for free, helping out. And then I testified, came back to Georgia, tried to start a Georgia innocence project, and found that there were already some students doing that at the law school.

Speaker 11 So I got on their board as their DNA expert, and we started working down there. And

Speaker 11 I think, gosh, they've worked on six cases with people who anxiety with them. When I was in London working on a private case, I was doing research on how they do things in Europe.

Speaker 11 And so I got in touch with Amanda Knox's team. She was at trial at that point.
I joined the team, got a bunch of American experts to look at the case along with Whippy Johnson.

Speaker 11 She was doing the same thing.

Speaker 11 We wrote a report to the court. The court didn't accept it.
She's convicted. And then I just kept working on that case with the family for about four years.

Speaker 11 That case really got so much press attention and so many fans and people who hated her. It was kind of like, you know, OJ's case.
It was such a controversial case.

Speaker 11 So that really kind of thrusts our little project much more in the limelight for a while, both in positive and negative ways.

Speaker 18 I called you a couple weeks ago because I wanted to ask you where to start with DNA because Becky and I are on an interesting journey together and I have no knowledge of DNA and it's critical to the journey that Becky and I are going on.

Speaker 16 I am the biological daughter of Diane Downs, and I am just curious about everything with DNA. So Diane actually denies that I'm her biological daughter.

Speaker 20 My original birth certificate actually says that she is my birth mother.

Speaker 16 Diane has sent her DNA to the studio so that we can, you know, try and match that. But I'm actually really interested to go on a search for my biological father.
father.

Speaker 16 Would that be something that we could do with running my DNA through some system?

Speaker 17 We found out that due to Becky's ethnic background, it's actually highly likely that she'll be able to find a lot of information through a commercial DNA service.

Speaker 11 There's good news in that because the American genealogical databases are populated disproportionately with Caucasians, whereas the criminal databases are not.

Speaker 11 It's just the opposite in the criminal databases.

Speaker 11 You know, the good news news for Caucasians who are looking for their families is you're likely to get a lot of information from any of the commercial genealogy companies.

Speaker 17 According to Dr. Greg, interestingly enough, men often have a much easier time tracing their lineage.

Speaker 11 Because men

Speaker 11 usually give their last name. But no, you should be able to find out pretty easily with a genetic test that you can send off to any of the commercial folks.

Speaker 11 And they link to all these great paper trails. There are lots of things people are doing now with DNA through these ancestry records.

Speaker 11 I don't think you're going to have a terrible problem finding at least the lineage of both of your parents.

Speaker 17 Dr. Gray continued to explain some of the technical aspects of examining DNA, as well as the process itself and some of the science behind it.

Speaker 17 But ultimately, his suggestion was that we contact a genealogist.

Speaker 17 someone whose job it is to do a deep dive into the results provided by a commercial DNA service and really trace the backgrounds and family lines by using the results as a foundation and researching beyond them.

Speaker 14 Are your AI agents helping users or just creating more work?

Speaker 21 If you can't compare your users' workflows before and after adding AI, How do you know it's even paying off?

Speaker 26 Pendo Agent Analytics is the first tool to connect agent prompts and conversations to downstream outcomes like time saved so you know what's working and what to fix.

Speaker 24 Start improving agent performance at pendo.io slash podcast.

Speaker 27 That's pendo.io slash podcast.

Speaker 28 Breaking news, everybody, not everything is terrible. I repeat, not everything is terrible.

Speaker 30 The ripple effect with Jenna Kim Jones is proof that the internet, it hasn't ruined humanity entirely.

Speaker 30 It's hosted by me, Jenna, I'm a comedian, so you know it's going to be funny and uplifting, of course.

Speaker 29 Each episode of The Ripple Effect features real stories of kindness, of barbers changing more than just their clients' haircut, of the secret life of leftover hotel soap, of vending machines that dispense just the help that someone might need.

Speaker 17 It's like magic, you guys.

Speaker 33 So put down your Doom scroller and pick up your faith in humanity and join me, Jenna, for the Ripple Effect. It's a reminder that you can start a ripple that changes everything.

Speaker 7 You really can. Listen to the ripple effect with Jenna Kim Jones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 5 Making the holidays magical for everyone on your list?

Speaker 6 It's no small feat.

Speaker 7 But with TJ Maxx, your magic multiplies. With quality finds arriving daily through Christmas Eve, you'll save on Lux Cashmere, the latest tech, toys, and more.

Speaker 1 So you can check off every name on your list and treat yourself to a holiday look that'll turn heads.

Speaker 10 Now you know where to go to make all that holiday magic.

Speaker 7 It's TJ Maxx, of course.

Speaker 10 It's shaping up to be a very magical holiday.

Speaker 8 Adobe Acrobat Studio, so brand new.

Speaker 34 Show me all the things PDFs can do.

Speaker 1 Do your work with ease and speed.

Speaker 34 PDF spaces is all you need.

Speaker 8 Do hours of research in an instant.

Speaker 34 With key insights from an AI assistant.

Speaker 35 Pick a template with a click. Now your prezzo looks super slick.

Speaker 36 Close that deal, yeah, you won. Do that, doing that, did that, done.

Speaker 37 Now you can do that, do that, with Acrobat.

Speaker 36 Now you can do that, do that with the all-new Acrobat.

Speaker 8 It's time to do your best work with the all-new Adobe Acrobat Studio.

Speaker 17 So we reached out to Michelle Leonard, a self-proclaimed DNA detective.

Speaker 38 I'm Michelle, and I am a professional genealogist, a DNA detective, an author, a historian, and my main specialism is working with DNA testing in order to identify unknown ancestors.

Speaker 38 So all sorts of unknown ancestor mysteries, mainly unknown parentage.

Speaker 38 So unknown parents, unknown grandparents, but people will come to me with more distant unknown ancestor mysteries as well, like unknown great and second great grandparents.

Speaker 38 What I do is I marry up all my years of genealogical expertise in creating and building family trees and in living person tracing and with my DNA know-how to try and identify these mystery ancestors.

Speaker 38 In general, people will come to me because they've heard or maybe they've seen something on TV or they've read an article or they've just found out that DNA testing can help with their mystery.

Speaker 38 Some people come to me right at the beginning, like I think Becky is, where they've not yet done any testing. They don't know where they should test.
They don't know how to go about it.

Speaker 38 They've just found out, they've got this idea that doing DNA testing might solve their mystery, might help them find out who their father was or who their grandfather was, that kind of thing.

Speaker 38 Others will come to me after they've tested and they don't know what to do with it and so they maybe google for a DNA expert, a DNA detective or a genetic genealogist and they might hit upon me and contact me at that point.

Speaker 38 They might already have been building perhaps a maternal tree or trees for the lines that they know of and they want to do it themselves but then they just hit a roadblock and they can't get any further and they're frustrated with it and they think I need somebody with a bit more expertise on this than I have and then they'll come to me at that point.

Speaker 17 One of the advantages of knowing your family line is having an understanding of their medical history.

Speaker 17 Becky has experienced some health problems in recent years and she believes that knowing who her father is will help provide some insight to not only where she comes from, but also help establish a background on some of the the medical problems she may be genetically predisposed to.

Speaker 16 Mainly, I just would like to find out who my biological father is. Not because my family life is disrupted or unhealthy, because my parents are amazing.
I love them dearly. But I'm just getting older.

Speaker 16 I have quite a bit of health problems that are going on as I'm aging.

Speaker 16 I'm realizing that I never met my biological father and it was something that I kind of wanted to do.

Speaker 38 So medical history is something important then?

Speaker 16 Yes, definitely. It's like when you go to the doctor and they say, you know, do you have family history of XYZ?

Speaker 16 I always have to put adopted. I don't know.

Speaker 17 And you can see there's a big part of Becky that needs to know that some part of her comes from something decent.

Speaker 38 Many, many people have said that to me and they want to know what their medical history is. And, you know, I think everyone has a right to know that as well.

Speaker 16 Yeah. And I mean, I really just want to know where I come from.
I want to know just my background. I know my life now and I know my family and my parents.

Speaker 16 And this is all just beautiful and amazing, but I'd like to know the other half of me. You know, I, I know Diane Downs is my biological mother and that is the half of me that I'm not proud of.

Speaker 16 And I would love to find the other half. So when I was 18, I was able to order my original birth certificate.
And that was the real answer. That was, oh my gosh, it's actually true.

Speaker 16 There's no denying it at that point because Diane Downs, well, Elizabeth Diane Downs was listed as my biological mother. But there was no mention of a father.

Speaker 38 And that's very common, that there's just a big blank for the father. Very common, you know, in all time periods and in all places, really.

Speaker 38 And I agree with what you're saying about the aspect of taking back control in a sense. In terms of what you can get from documents, that varies from state to state, from country to country.

Speaker 38 That varies a lot.

Speaker 38 But what doesn't vary is the fact that whatever you might get from adoption papers or from hearsay, from what somebody may be able to tell you, is simply something that is very difficult to corroborate.

Speaker 38 In fact, impossible to corroborate without that DNA evidence.

Speaker 17 Michelle's belief is that documents can sometimes have false information, but DNA evidence is more or less irrefutable.

Speaker 38 I always say that with this,

Speaker 38 while I want to know everything that it's possible to know about the adoption papers and the hearsay evidence, I always follow the DNA, always put the DNA first and I don't let that other evidence, the documentary evidence or the hearsay evidence, cloud my judgment and lead to confirmation bias because that information can always be wrong or falsely given.

Speaker 38 The DNA, however, if followed correctly, will lead to the truth. And you'll hear people say a lot things like, DNA doesn't lie, human beings do.

Speaker 38 And while that is very generally true, it's also quite an overused and oversimplified saying because a DNA result on their own can be misinterpreted at times in that if you don't know what you're doing with them and you're trying to find an unknown father, you could misinterpret the DNA matches and end up identifying the wrong man or several wrong men.

Speaker 38 I've seen that happen before. Tester is looking for answers.

Speaker 38 They hit upon someone with a similar name to one given in an adoption document, or they perhaps message a match who says, oh, I think it could be my dad's cousin.

Speaker 38 And people get taken along in the wave of that. And when somebody who understands the DNA looks at it properly, realizes that the DNA doesn't support that conclusion of it being that man.

Speaker 38 So it's a bit more complicated than simply saying DNA will give you the truth. DNA doesn't lie.

Speaker 38 That is true, but at the same time, it has to be worked with correctly in order to get to the correct answer.

Speaker 17 DNA is a very scientific way of going about a very emotional process. There's no denying that your clients and Becky here are absolutely going to be subjected to strong emotions about this.

Speaker 17 And then also there's questions about when

Speaker 17 you find Becky's father. What do we do with that information? Because I've read different reports from Diane Downs herself where she has said the father knows he's the father.

Speaker 17 He's a dear friend of mine. And so there's that in the reports.
But then Becky's heard other things.

Speaker 16 Oh, there are so many stories circling around my biological father. I've heard that he doesn't know that he's the father.
I've heard that he has fought for me when I was born to keep custody.

Speaker 16 I heard that he was a reporter during the case. I also heard that he was worked at the mail office with Diane.
And then I also heard it was just some guy that was a husband of her cellmate.

Speaker 16 So, I mean, there's just so many stories. I would really love to just find that one answer.

Speaker 17 And there's also the possibility that he's aware of who he is and simply doesn't have any desire to be involved.

Speaker 16 That's something that I am worried about too, because I have been so

Speaker 16 out there. You know, I've been open about who I am.
And if he had wanted to contact me, I've been in the media for 10 years now, you know, so why hasn't he?

Speaker 16 My fear is that maybe he has passed away or he doesn't want to be found or he just doesn't know.

Speaker 38 It's a very tough thing to do, and you have to go into it understanding that it's going to bring up an awful lot of emotion.

Speaker 38 You have to have a good support network on hand, and you might want to even consider professional support, counseling, and that kind of thing to help through the process.

Speaker 38 In terms of when you get to that point, if you get to that point because not all cases are solvable or at least not all cases are immediately solvable some take weeks some take months some take years and depending on the ethnicity of the man in question sometimes there are some cases that will take years yet because if he's of an ethnicity say that there isn't a society that tends to dna test then that makes life a lot more difficult because if you don't have the matches to work with you can't identify the man on the end of it but having said all that if you get to that point you identify a person first off you might have a number of candidates you know the DNA might be pointing to a particular family say but there might be three brothers or you might only be able to say well it's one of these brothers or it's one of their first cousins it's one of these five men for instance and the only way to get to the bottom of which one of the five it is is target testing on those lines anyone who DNA tests they can find shocks and surprises.

Speaker 38 They can find

Speaker 38 some close ancestors aren't who they believe them to be. So for instance, finding out your father's not your father or your grandfather wasn't your grandfather.
These things can happen.

Speaker 38 Also, they might find that they have close relatives they didn't know existed, like say Becky testing and showing up on somebody's list.

Speaker 38 She could be a close relative, a half-sibling, a first cousin they never knew existed.

Speaker 38 So in terms of contacting people, in most cases, you're going to have several candidates and you might have to narrow things down to the right one.

Speaker 38 But if you do know exactly who it is, then there are a number of prevailing ideas on who should make the contact and how that contact should be made.

Speaker 14 Are your AI agents helping users or just creating more work?

Speaker 21 If you can't compare your users' workflows before and after adding AI, how do you know it's even paying off?

Speaker 26 Pendo Agent Analytics is the first tool to connect agent prompts and conversations to downstream outcomes like time saved so you know what's working and what to fix.

Speaker 24 Start improving agent performance at pendo.io slash podcast.

Speaker 27 That's pendo.io slash podcast.

Speaker 28 Breaking news, everybody, not everything is terrible. I repeat, not everything is terrible.

Speaker 30 The ripple effect with Jenna Kim Jones is proof that the internet, it hasn't ruined humanity entirely.

Speaker 30 It's hosted by me, Jenna, I'm a comedian, so you know it's going to be funny and uplifting, of course.

Speaker 29 Each episode of The Ripple Effect features real stories of kindness, of barbers changing more than just their client's haircut, of the secret life of leftover hotel soap, of vending machines that dispense just the help that someone might need.

Speaker 30 It's like magic, you guys.

Speaker 33 So put down your doom scroller and pick up your faith in humanity and join me, Jenna, for the ripple effect. It's a reminder that you can start a ripple that changes everything.

Speaker 7 You really can.

Speaker 7 Listen to the ripple effect with Jenna Kim Jones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 8 Adobe Acrobat Studio, so brand new.

Speaker 34 Show me all the things PDFs can do.

Speaker 1 Do your work with ease and speed.

Speaker 35 PDF spaces is all you need.

Speaker 8 Do hours of research in an instant.

Speaker 34 With key insights from an AI assistant.

Speaker 35 Pick a template with a click. Now your preso looks super slick.

Speaker 36 Close that deal, yeah, you won. Do that, doing that, did that, done.

Speaker 37 Now you can do that, do that, with Acrobat. Now you can do that, do that with the all-new Acrobat.

Speaker 8 It's time to do your best work with the all-new Adobe Acrobat Studio.

Speaker 6 Making the holidays magical for everyone on your list, it's no small feat.

Speaker 7 But with TJ Maxx, your magic multiplies. With quality finds arriving daily through Christmas Eve, you'll save on Lux Cashmere the latest tech, toys, and more.

Speaker 1 So you can check off every name on your list and treat yourself to a holiday look that'll turn heads.

Speaker 10 Now you know where to go to make all that holiday magic.

Speaker 7 It's TJ Maxx, of course.

Speaker 10 It's shaping up to be a very magical holiday.

Speaker 17 It's clear that for Becky, this whole process is going to be extremely emotional.

Speaker 17 It's not only her own discoveries that she's concerned about, but also the effect it might have on the people who raised her and took care of her.

Speaker 17 Also, at this point, Becky's dad could be whatever she imagines him to be. But once she knows, whatever fantasy or vision she has might be crushed.

Speaker 16 There's so many aspects to it that, you know, I don't want to hurt my adopted parents because I do love them.

Speaker 16 And then there's the fact that I am on this journey that I never thought I was going to go on. I found Diane and I didn't want to know anymore.
And now there's this search for finding the other half.

Speaker 16 And I've always been able just to pretend that my biological dad's an amazing person, that he loves me, and that, I don't know, some great person that hasn't done anything wrong and is a positive person in society.

Speaker 16 But the reality is I don't know. And he may not be a positive person.
He may not be the person that I've thought he was my whole life.

Speaker 11 Absolutely.

Speaker 38 Yeah. As I say, that this is not a comfortable thing to do and it's not an easy thing to do.
And it can be emotionally draining.

Speaker 38 And there can be times where client has to step back and say, you know, this is taking over my life and I need to break from it for a while.

Speaker 38 And I think anyone, if they get to that point, then they need to take that break from it. If they're getting scared about getting close to the truth and things like that.

Speaker 38 And that's a really, really important point when you're doing something like this. It's not just about identifying someone.
It's the whole range of emotions.

Speaker 38 how that person is feeling at any given point in the process is extremely important and has to be taken on board.

Speaker 38 And I completely understand what Becky is saying about having this fantasy about this great person in society

Speaker 38 that while she doesn't know that can remain intact but at the same time there's that gnawing away because of not knowing.

Speaker 38 clients who have found out things about their birth parents that they didn't expect and that they found very tough to deal with that because they had built up an image of a person that didn't exist in essence that wasn't the reality and and others of course have have been pleasantly surprised by what they found it's every single case is so individual and there's just no way to generalize about any of this at all michelle explained to becky and me in depth about how the process will work once becky sends in her sample and receives her profile Michelle will wade through all of the potential DNA relatives and form a complex family tree, gradually forming the branches that directly connect Becky to anyone else in the database who may hold clues to her father's identity.

Speaker 38 I want to have that maternal side as reference.

Speaker 38 So you want the maternal tree, but just as good, in fact, even better than having the maternal tree as well, is having a close maternal relative tested, the closest that you can test.

Speaker 38 And when you're trying to solve a mystery, I want to just be working on the pertinent matches, the paternal matches.

Speaker 38 And if a maternal relatives can test even better, because everyone that matches them as well i can just eliminate them i can put them in a group maternal and i can just put them to one side and the people that don't match your uncle are the people i really want to look at because they're going to be on the paternal side so actually your uncle testing is something i would hugely recommend in this situation awesome Amazing.

Speaker 17 Thank you, Michelle, for taking the time to speak with Becky and I.

Speaker 16 Yeah, Michelle, thank you so much.

Speaker 17 Thankfully, James did in fact submit his DNA.

Speaker 17 So hopefully, Michelle will in fact be able to find a complete picture of Becky's maternal line, which would not only help begin the search for her paternal lineage, but also provide Becky the conclusive confirmation that she is in fact Diane's daughter, despite Diane's recent claims to the contrary.

Speaker 17 All that remains now is to wait for the results.

Speaker 16 And it's that big web where there's so many more things, and which is the reason that I have never done DNA testing. I have been a little bit worried about how deep it goes.

Speaker 16 You know, it's, it would be neat to know, you know, my heritage and, you know, what health problems run in the family, but I've never been ready to find my biological father until now.

Speaker 16 Well, I can see how emotional that I've

Speaker 17 been thinking about your process. and how we've we're parallel and different in these ways.

Speaker 17 Like I told Michelle, just the fact that I know who my mom is and I've never had to fantasize about who she is, but you said it so well. Like, yeah, what do you do with that fantasy if it's not real?

Speaker 17 If the father that you painted in your mind, I mean, this is a big part of your structure and your history. This is ingrained in how you've been able to formulate who you are as a person.

Speaker 16 Yeah, luckily, I had my adoptive parents, and I've always said, you know, that blood doesn't, my blood in my veins may be somebody else's, but well, let me think about that.

Speaker 16 The genetics that I have don't make me who I am. You know, there's that nature versus nurture concept.
And I was raised right. I was raised with good family ethics and values and morals.

Speaker 16 And, you know, I think my genetics have played a part in a lot of the things that I've done.

Speaker 16 But even if my biological father is somebody that doesn't live up to that fantasy, I think that I'll be okay because I have that strong family structure.

Speaker 17 It's taken Becky a long time to reach the point where she's prepared to accept the idea that her biological father is out there and could potentially be located thanks to DNA.

Speaker 17 And what that will ultimately mean for her sense of identity remains to be seen, along with the uncertainty that he's even willing to cooperate or come forward.

Speaker 17 On the next episode of Happy Face presents Two Face, Diane Down's trial, we explore aspects of Diane's trial as some of her bizarre behavior leading up to and during the trial, as well as a strange letter she wrote to her attorney after it was all over.

Speaker 17 Ben Bolin is our executive producer. Melissa Moore is our co-executive producer.
Maya Cole is our primary producer. Paul Deccant is our supervising producer.
Sam T. Garnen is our researcher.

Speaker 17 And Matt Riddle is our story editor. Featured music by Dreamtent.
Happy Face Presents Too Face is a production of iHeartRadio.

Speaker 14 Are your AI agents helping users or just creating more work?

Speaker 21 If you can't compare your users' workflows before and after adding AI, how do you know it's even paying off?

Speaker 26 Pendo Agent Analytics is the first tool to connect agent prompts and conversations to downstream outcomes like time saved so you know what's working and what to fix.

Speaker 24 Start improving agent performance at pendo.io slash podcast.

Speaker 27 That's pendo.io slash podcast.

Speaker 39 Fall is the perfect time to explore California in a brand new Toyota hybrid with 17 fuel-efficient options like the stylish all-hybrid Camry, the Adventure-Ready RAV4 hybrid, or the spacious Grand Highlander hybrid.

Speaker 39 Toyota has the perfect ride for any adventure. Every new Toyota comes with Toyota Care, a two-year complementary scheduled maintenance plan, and an exclusive hybrid battery warranty.

Speaker 39 Visit your local Toyota dealer and test drive one today. Toyota, let's go places.
See your local Toyota dealer for hybrid battery warranty details.

Speaker 3 Oral health goes beyond just aesthetics. It's deeply connected to your general health and well-being.
That's why preventing oral health problems before they start is so important.

Speaker 3 When you use the Colgate Total active prevention system, you're not just helping to prevent oral health problems like cavities and gingivitis, you're laying the groundwork for overall wellness.

Speaker 3 Colgate Total's three-product routine includes a reformulated toothpaste, an innovative toothbrush, and a refreshing antibacterial mouthwash that all support a healthy mouth.

Speaker 3 In fact, the three products were designed to work together to be 15 times more effective at reducing bacteria buildup in six weeks, starting from week one, compared to a non-antibacterial fluoride toothpaste and flat-trim toothbrush.

Speaker 3 Take control of your oral health and get the Colgate Total active prevention system today so you can be dentist ready. Visit shop.colgate.com/slash total.

Speaker 13 There's two types of fishing: the kind I'm doing right now and the kind of fishing hackers do online. They cast their lines, but with Cisco Duo's end-to-end fishing resistance, they never get a bite.

Speaker 13 Cisco Duo, fishing season is over. Learn more at duo.com.

Speaker 1 This is an iHeart podcast.