Normalcy

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Speaker 18 Previously on Happy Face.

Speaker 1 My name is Lauren Bright Pacheco, and I've worked with Melissa Jesperson Moore for about four years.

Speaker 19 My father is Keith Hunter Jesperson. He's known as the happy face serial killer.
My mom had just said that her and my dad were separating, which I didn't believe.

Speaker 19 I wanted to keep like you guys' baby pictures and he chucked that all out. There was just this thing that people said in the family, they would say, oh, that's just Keith.
That's just how Keith is.

Speaker 19 And it seemed to be acceptable.

Speaker 1 One of the few people that Keith opened up to about his childhood was psychologist Al Carlyle.

Speaker 19 Any learning problems? No, not really.

Speaker 20 So you're intelligent. I'm very intelligent, but I just didn't adapt myself to it.

Speaker 19 I got pregnant my freshman year. So right after I found out is when the news hit about my dad.
I was dating a guy named Nick.

Speaker 19 It was a very dysfunctional relationship. So I felt like the only option for me to break out of this was to not have the baby.
A couple months later, I got a letter from my dad.

Speaker 19 He said, you're a killer just like me. You deserve to be in prison with me.

Speaker 19 My dad

Speaker 19 always said that he was not like his dad in the way he disciplined me and my siblings. There was a time when I stayed out too late and didn't come home and I worried my family.

Speaker 19 And my dad said, you know, you went past your curfew.

Speaker 19 So he made me bend over my bed and he pulled my pants down so my bum was bare. And he took off his leather belt and he started like whipping it, you know, like slapping it so it made a slapping noise.

Speaker 19 And

Speaker 19 he kept threatening that he was going to whip me with it or spank me with it.

Speaker 19 And so I was sobbing and pleading with him not to hit me because, like, the sound alone of the leather slapping was terrifying.

Speaker 19 And just being so vulnerable with your tush in the air, like, I knew it was gonna hurt really bad. And

Speaker 19 he didn't. He just kept toying with the idea that he was gonna hit me.

Speaker 19 How old were you? It was at at the farmhouse, so six, about six years old.

Speaker 19 And he made sure that there was always the threat

Speaker 19 of being spanked. Like he would threaten to spank us, and you just needed a threat, and you'd whip up real fast.

Speaker 19 I mean, because just his size and how he made those sounds were terrifying.

Speaker 1 He must have known the fear.

Speaker 19 Yeah, he must have

Speaker 1 For all of Melissa's happy childhood memories regarding her father, darker ones surfaced as our journey progressed.

Speaker 1 Although he never physically hit them, Keith still managed to instill a sense of fear in Melissa and her siblings.

Speaker 1 As the saying goes,

Speaker 1 not all scars are visible.

Speaker 1 I'm Lauren Bright Pacheco.

Speaker 1 This is Happy Face.

Speaker 19 My dad would be home on the weekends, Saturday morning, and Sunday morning, like any weekend morning, we always want to wake up our dad.

Speaker 19 So we would rush the bed with my mom and dad in it, and we would jump on him. He would tackle us, and it just became a whole hour of tackling and tickling while he was trying to get out of bed.

Speaker 19 So we would get more and more aggressive like with our tactics. Like I would get a further running start and run and then jump on the bed.

Speaker 19 And then I would jump on the bed and then really try to pound on my dad. Like,

Speaker 19 cause he could handle it because you could see that he could.

Speaker 19 How old were you? Oh, just a young kid. I was like five to

Speaker 19 seven or so, like really young. I just would go and jump on him and and he could take it.
My brother would get aggressive.

Speaker 19 I remember him like elbowing him and then my dad like pinning him down and wrestling him. And

Speaker 19 with me, he pinned me down and started tickling me. But it was to the point of like, I was going to pee my pants.
And I kept screaming, I was going to pee my pants. They kept tickling me.

Speaker 19 But it turned from like, it was funny, like a parent will let you go. If you're like, no, really, Sirius had to go, you know, you would let your child go.

Speaker 19 But all of a sudden, it was now like, I control you. And it turned into like, now I'm sobbing because I'm, it's becoming painful to be tickled, you know?

Speaker 1 So you'd go from laughing to crying.

Speaker 19 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And then would he stop?

Speaker 19 He would eventually let me go, but it was when he wanted to let me go.

Speaker 19 That just was his way with us.

Speaker 19 Anything I was afraid of or didn't like, he made sure to push it and push me beyond my comfort just to let me know. he had control.

Speaker 19 It may sound very harmless or little to somebody else, but it was it was a message. He was giving me a message that he controls me.
I mean, there's so many little tiny lessons of that.

Speaker 19 It's like touching the electric fence. So we have around the peripheral of the farm, we had an electric fence.
And I asked him, Dad, is the fence on? He's like, well, touch it and find out.

Speaker 19 And I touched it. And when you touch it,

Speaker 19 You can't let go. Your hand won't let go.

Speaker 19 Like my hand, I remember was on it and it was like vibrating and I couldn't release my hand because it gripped gripped it and he was laughing it was all to tell me that

Speaker 19 he could do what he wants

Speaker 19 and that you were his yep

Speaker 20 and I had to watch my feelings around my kids I had to watch because

Speaker 20 if they did something wrong and made me want to feel like punishing them because I know what my dad would do to me and I was feeling like I had to really watch myself that I didn't allow myself my see, here I'm a murderer, and I've been out here and I've been doing this.

Speaker 20 I said,

Speaker 20 I've got to watch my emotions around people I love. There is, like you say, maybe not a control there because I'm not,

Speaker 20 there are things that may be setting me off, and I had to watch that. It was too easily done.

Speaker 20 There's times where I've gotten with people, friends of mine, I just sit there and I said, I can't stay here.

Speaker 20 You don't see it, but I do, and I'm not going to stick around because I will do something about it.

Speaker 1 Eventually, after her father's capture and her chaotic relationship with Nick, Melissa tried to find a sense of security and safety and love.

Speaker 1 Just a normal life.

Speaker 1 But something was always missing.

Speaker 1 Why was that so important to you that you create this stable home life?

Speaker 19 Well, it actually goes back to the breakup with

Speaker 19 When I broke up with Nick, it was a relationship that I didn't want to repeat. So I made a list of all the things that weren't working for me, that were harmful.

Speaker 19 And I took a look at what my parents' relationship was and my mom's new relationship was. And I realized I didn't want to repeat that.

Speaker 19 And in order to do that, I had to make a list of what wouldn't work for me. So I made this checklist and I put it in my diary.

Speaker 19 And there's this moment when I met Sam and as he was talking I was checking off that list in my head of all the things that I needed to ensure that I didn't follow in my mom's footsteps.

Speaker 1 Give me an example. What was on that list?

Speaker 19 Number one, he had to be college educated. I didn't want to live in poverty.
And I didn't want to be in a relationship that if I was going to have children with someone, that it was unstable.

Speaker 19 Two, traveled the world, had a world view. I wanted to see the world.
I had this dream of traveling.

Speaker 19 Three, that he was transparent and honest and I could count on them and know that everything that he says would be truthful. Those are the top ones.

Speaker 19 And so when I first met him, the first thing he said is he's in college and he's getting his degree in international relations. And then he already lived in Portugal for two years.

Speaker 19 So he, to me, was the best man that I have ever met in Spokane.

Speaker 19 On paper, he was everything that I needed.

Speaker 1 The him Melissa refers to is Sam, her estranged husband and father of her two children. We spoke to Sam about how the relationship began and evolved.

Speaker 1 So tell me how you and Melissa first met. How old were you and where was it?

Speaker 22 Oh, um, it was a while ago. I was 25 or 26 right in there.
And Melissa was like 21.

Speaker 22 And it was pretty unique.

Speaker 22 I grew up Mormon and so every Friday there would always be an activity, a dance for singles.

Speaker 22 I remember I had just broken up with a girl and I didn't want to go out, didn't want to go hang out with anybody. And I had two roommates and they wanted me out of the house.

Speaker 22 They're like, time for you to go do something. We're going to go to the dance.
It was in West Plains in Spokane, Washington. It's a big gymnasium full of people.

Speaker 22 Knew most everybody there because it's all my peers, the people I hanged out with. And

Speaker 22 I was kind of reluctant to even be there, but I also was enjoying the music. So I went and sat up on the stage and I was just watching everybody dance.

Speaker 22 And I was looking around the room trying to figure out if I was going to date again. And then

Speaker 22 I

Speaker 22 remember it very clearly.

Speaker 22 Side doors of the gym opened up and

Speaker 23 a beautiful blonde walked in.

Speaker 22 Everything went dark.

Speaker 22 I'd never seen her before.

Speaker 22 And I was very, very interested.

Speaker 22 So at that moment, I decided I probably would be open to dating again.

Speaker 22 I was sitting on the stage trying to be a loner, which isn't my normal personality, actually.

Speaker 22 and I just watched her mingle with some people.

Speaker 22 And then after a little little while,

Speaker 22 she approached me.

Speaker 22 She came up to me on the stage and she sat next to me. I was right next to the speakers, so you couldn't really hear each other.
So she started trying to talk to me.

Speaker 22 And as she tried, I moved closer to her so that we could hear each other. And she started talking in my ear.
And I was smitten.

Speaker 22 I asked her for her phone number and I asked for a chance to be able to catch up with her.

Speaker 19 And

Speaker 22 she left, I left. I think we went to Sherry's as a group.
Usually, after dances, as a collective Mormon group, you always go like to Denny's or Sherry's or something like that.

Speaker 22 And I remember the whole night, I just couldn't stop thinking about her.

Speaker 22 And

Speaker 22 I didn't call her for like two or three days.

Speaker 1 Was that calculated?

Speaker 22 No, I was just too nervous.

Speaker 19 It's a day-glow-grade time.

Speaker 19 fault of failure.

Speaker 19 They break no one else compared with

Speaker 4 Are your AI agents helping users or just creating more work?

Speaker 2 If you can't compare your users' workflows before and after adding AI, how do you know it's even paying off?

Speaker 9 Pendo Agent Analytics is the first tool to connect agent prompts and conversations to downstream outcomes like time saved so you know what's working and what to fix.

Speaker 11 Start improving agent performance at pendo.io/slash podcast.

Speaker 13 That's pendo.io slash podcast.

Speaker 24 Ah, greetings from my bath, festive friends. The holidays are overwhelming, but I'm tackling this season with PayPal and making the most of my money, getting 5% cash back when I pay in four.

Speaker 25 No fees, no interest.

Speaker 9 I used it to get this portable spa with jets.

Speaker 25 Now the bubbles can cling to my sculpted but pruny body. Make the most of your money this holiday with PayPal.

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Points can be renewed for cash and more paying for subject to terms and approval. PayPal Inc.
and MLS 910-457.

Speaker 21 Some moments in your life stay with you forever.

Speaker 21 In a special segment of On Purpose, I share a story about a book that changed my life early in my journey and how I was able to find the exact same edition on eBay years later.

Speaker 21 There are certain books that don't just give you information, they shift the way you see the world. I remember reading one when I was younger that completely changed me.

Speaker 21 Years later, I found myself thinking about that book again. I wanted the same edition back.
Not a reprint, not a different cover, that exact one. So I started searching.

Speaker 21 that's when I found it on eBay. That's what I love about eBay.
It's not just a marketplace, it's a place where stories live. Shop eBay for millions of finds, each with a story.

Speaker 21 eBay, things people love.

Speaker 21 Listen to on purpose on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Speaker 5 You definitely know the importance of prevention in oral health. That's why the Colgate Total Active Prevention System was created.

Speaker 5 Con una pasta dental reformulada, a pio de diente sinoador, y un en juág bucal antibacterial que yudana prevenir problemas de zalud bucal, like cavities and gingivitis. Antese qué piécin.

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Y be dentist ready.

Speaker 1 For Melissa, Sam's greatest appeal was that he represented everything her father did not.

Speaker 1 What were your first impressions of Sam physically?

Speaker 19 Oh,

Speaker 19 he had a goatee that was kind of long, and he was wearing a leather jacket, not normally

Speaker 19 like stylistically.

Speaker 19 And maybe as girls, like we all can relate to this, we're like, oh, that's changeable, the clothes are changeable

Speaker 19 he's really the antithesis of your father physically though too and and in terms of emotionally your dad's six foot six Sam was probably closer to five foot six yeah he's five foot six

Speaker 19 he instantly did he feel safe

Speaker 19 uh yeah because he wasn't pursuing me well it felt like he wasn't pursuing me at all. Like I had to be the pursuer.
So that felt incredibly safe.

Speaker 19 Yeah, he put my phone number in his flip phone and then he never called me.

Speaker 19 Never did.

Speaker 19 And I worked at Victoria's Secret.

Speaker 19 And then one day

Speaker 19 he just shows up at my job.

Speaker 22 So she worked on the makeup side of Victoria's Secret. And so I showed up to the makeup side and I asked for help to like for a perfume or something.
But really the goal was to get to meet Melissa.

Speaker 22 And

Speaker 22 she, I don't know if she asked me or if I asked her, I was like, hey, can, oh, I asked her, I remember now.

Speaker 19 He says, you know, like, hey, you know, I was talking to Alicia, your friend, and she said that you could use a good guy in your life. And do you want to go out? I said, sure.
And so I gave him a day.

Speaker 22 We set the date up. And then like in a few days when it was supposed to happen, I was trying to like make sure it was going to happen.
And she told me that she couldn't go out.

Speaker 22 Like one of her friends asked her to like watch their kid.

Speaker 19 So I told him, like, oh, you know, I forgot, I'm babysitting. And then he thought I was, you know, making up an excuse to turn him down and not to go out with him.

Speaker 19 And I said, well, actually, you want to just come with me?

Speaker 22 She goes, but you're welcome to come watch the kid with me.

Speaker 18 And I obviously said yes.

Speaker 19 And I just thought he was a good guy. And we went out to Denny's where everybody hung out.
Like, if you didn't want your date to end, you just go to Denny's or Sherry's.

Speaker 19 And I remember we were talking about the, I don't know why it came up, but one of my favorite fables was the sirens fable. And so we were talking about that.

Speaker 19 The sirens linguring the yes, I don't know why I like that fable.

Speaker 19 Maybe because the female has the power.

Speaker 1 It's subtle, but even on their first date, Melissa's tiny exertion of control has echoes of her father.

Speaker 22 We were on our date at Sherry's and I remember she did something that no other girl was capable of doing.

Speaker 22 I really detest ranch dressing.

Speaker 22 There was no way I was ever going to eat ranch dressing and she was eating like a piece of chicken and she asked me to eat it and I told her no. I go, I don't like ranch dressing

Speaker 22 and then I ate ranch dressing. And I remember like no girl had ever had that kind of power over me and I found it really attractive that she didn't take no for me.

Speaker 1 Did you guys get serious really quickly?

Speaker 19 We did.

Speaker 22 So instead of taking her home, I took her back to my place. And in the Mormon community, that's not a normal next step.
I took her back to my place. And while we were there, we didn't do anything.

Speaker 22 We made out.

Speaker 22 But still, that was the fastest relationship that I've ever had, like to move that quickly.

Speaker 1 On paper, Sam was everything Melissa would want in a partner. But her fear of vulnerability always overshadowed her desire for connection.

Speaker 19 This is somebody who physically doesn't look like my dad, doesn't act like my father in any shape or form. So he felt safe in all of those categories.
I craved to have

Speaker 19 everything that I was missing growing up, but I emotionally couldn't connect to it.

Speaker 1 What was your fear during that time?

Speaker 19 My biggest fear was that everybody would find out about my past and that it would take this life that I curated and make it crumble down, that it would fall apart, that everything I worked for and survived for would fall apart.

Speaker 19 And that people would find out that I'm just like my father and I would lose everything.

Speaker 19 You know, it's interesting to go back and meet with people that I dated in the past and then this to be a common thread that I was emotionally distant in the relationship, that they constantly had to work to find out what I was feeling.

Speaker 19 Yes, I was a very emotionally removed person, and that scared me, but that was a vulnerability that was trained out of me. If I was vulnerable with my dad, he exploited it.

Speaker 19 If I was vulnerable with these boyfriends, what would happen?

Speaker 19 It scared me to think that I wasn't capable of love. And that's a precursor to psychopathy, that I could be a psychopath if I couldn't have empathy or love.

Speaker 19 And I honestly didn't feel when I left a lot of these relationships, I didn't feel sad to leave them. I was relieved to leave these relationships.

Speaker 19 So it caused me to further wonder if I was just like my dad.

Speaker 1 In Sam, Melissa saw the stability she desperately craved. And his religious upbringing provided stark contrast to her father's crimes.

Speaker 1 But in reality, Sam was very much questioning his faith and rebelling against it. Melissa became part of that rebellion.

Speaker 1 What did you know about her family? Do you remember?

Speaker 22 Yeah, I remember when she first told me, I think we were at her mom's place where you've been now. They used to have like a trampoline in the front of the yard.
I think we were on the trampoline.

Speaker 22 And we were like looking up at the stars. That's when Melissa told me who her dad was.

Speaker 22 And once again, I was so smitten, to be honest, I didn't really care. And I don't think I understood the magnitude, like the gravity of what her father was.

Speaker 22 And I didn't see it as a reflection of who she was. Like, I would hate for somebody to ever think that my parents are a reflection of me.

Speaker 22 I mean, obviously, we are, but like, I wouldn't want to be judged for that.

Speaker 1 When was the first time Sam said

Speaker 1 you aren't there emotionally? When was the first time that he doubted?

Speaker 19 It was always the elephant in the room, the

Speaker 19 lack of connection.

Speaker 19 I thought if we don't acknowledge it, then it doesn't exist and therefore everything's normal. Don't bring it up.
And so there wasn't anything verbally spoken about it until three years ago.

Speaker 19 We had a conversation about where things were at in our marriage, and that was his complaint.

Speaker 1 And what did he say?

Speaker 19 He said,

Speaker 19 you never look in my eyes and you never kiss me.

Speaker 19 And

Speaker 19 it really bothered him.

Speaker 19 And

Speaker 19 it's true.

Speaker 19 It's true. And it has nothing to do with him.
I don't blame him. It was nothing to do with him at all.
It was everything to do with me.

Speaker 19 In the African bush on the Irish coast, in Kyoto, forests, I could see us close.

Speaker 1 In what must have been one of the most surreal moments in their marriage, one day Melissa decided to visit Keith.

Speaker 22 Melissa and I were at home one day, and I think she had either just received a letter or maybe had come across the letter. And she asked me if it was weird that she hadn't seen her dad

Speaker 22 and I was like I don't know I don't know if it's weird or not I mean he is in prison for murder so no I don't think it's that weird she goes how would you feel if I was to go see him again and I was like whether you want to or not I'm I'm here for you and I said, we'll just think about it.

Speaker 22 And she did. She thought about it for a little while.
And then she goes, I think I'm going to do that.

Speaker 22 And so we took some time off we told everyone we're going on a trip to Oregon and we didn't tell anyone what we were gonna go do

Speaker 22 and we ended up getting to the prison with our kids and so

Speaker 22 we ended up like following the guards through this like maze of like cells like where they would open up a gate and then you'd open up another gate and you're kind of like following them through and then they brought us into this like lobby which had like couches laid out, and I was trying to figure out how it was working.

Speaker 22 And I was waiting for them to come get us. And I was trying to figure out: so, Melissa, when you go see your dad, I'll just stay here with the kids.

Speaker 22 And then

Speaker 22 I started looking around the room, and

Speaker 22 there were guards at the doors with guns, and all the men in the room were wearing denim,

Speaker 22 and I wasn't wearing denim.

Speaker 22 I was like, Man, that must be the style in Oregon or something.

Speaker 22 That's how naive I am.

Speaker 19 Oh,

Speaker 22 and then I started noticing that they're like pretty tatted up. And it was when we were in the room that I realized that we were going to meet Melissa's dad in person.

Speaker 22 I had no idea.

Speaker 22 And

Speaker 22 like after a little while, Melissa's dad came in and

Speaker 22 he's massive. Like he is such a big man.
I mean, I knew he was big, but I don't think I knew how big he was. I remember I stood up, Melissa stood up, and the kids were with us.

Speaker 22 And I don't remember if he hugged Melissa, but I remember his interaction with me. He shook my hand and he said, thank you for taking such good care of my daughter.

Speaker 22 That was the very first thing he said. And I was like, oh, I might be able to handle this guy.

Speaker 22 So he sat down next to us. I think he asked us if we wanted to have the kids go play over in the play area or not.
And we're like, no, we'll keep them here.

Speaker 22 And I wasn't very cognizant of even what my kids were enduring or even what Melissa was feeling because my anxiety level was really high.

Speaker 22 I didn't know if I had to move it like into a protective mode or like into a kindness mode. I was really distraught.
I didn't know what to do. Was it crazy?

Speaker 22 It was because like I wasn't expecting it to look like that. And he was actually pretty genuine and pretty kind.
The banter back and forth between Melissa and her dad seemed kind of normal.

Speaker 22 He asked if we wanted to go outside. I guess there's an outside area that you could go sit in.
And we just had a dialogue back and forth.

Speaker 19 That was weird.

Speaker 1 What's going through your mind? At any point, are you looking at this face and hearing this voice and hearing the small talk and thinking, this man murdered people?

Speaker 19 Yes, absolutely.

Speaker 22 I was able to sit next to a horrible, horrible person that could kill eight women. And

Speaker 22 I wasn't able to even distinguish that that's what he was. And I used to consider myself pretty good at reading people, like assessing who they are.
And at that very moment, I realized that most

Speaker 22 it would be easy for all of us to be prey.

Speaker 22 And that blew my mind. That was going through my head the entire time.
While he's talking to Melissa, I was like, he murdered eight people.

Speaker 18 From I, The Creation of a Serial Killer. by Jack Olson.

Speaker 18 My size intimidated the guards, and they chained me up whenever I was moved.

Speaker 18 I explained that I wasn't going to harm anyone, but they'd heard that story before.

Speaker 18 It didn't matter how nice and polite I acted, I was assumed to be a cold-blooded killer who would murder anyone he could get his hands on.

Speaker 18 This took some time to get used to.

Speaker 4 Are your AI agents helping users or just creating more work?

Speaker 2 If you can't compare your users' workflows before and after adding AI, how do you know it's even paying off?

Speaker 9 Pendo Agent Analytics is the first tool to connect agent prompts and conversations to downstream outcomes like time saved, so you know what's working and what to fix.

Speaker 11 Start improving agent performance at pendo.io/slash podcast.

Speaker 13 That's pendo.io/slash podcast.

Speaker 24 Ah, greetings from my bath, festive friends. The holidays are overwhelming, but I'm tackling this season with PayPal and making the most of my money, getting 5% cash back when I pay in four.

Speaker 25 No fees, no interest.

Speaker 9 I used it to get this portable spa with jets.

Speaker 25 Now the bubbles can cling to my sculpted but pruny body. Make the most of your money this holiday with PayPal.

Speaker 23 Save the offer in the app. Ends 1231.
See PayPal.com/slash promo terms. Points give you a need for cash and more pay in four subject to terms and approval.
PayPal Inc. at NMLS 910-457.

Speaker 21 Some moments in your life stay with you forever.

Speaker 21 In a special segment of on purpose, I share a story about a book that changed my life early in my journey and how I was able to find the exact same edition on eBay years later.

Speaker 21 There are certain books that don't just give you information, they shift the way you see the world. I remember reading one when I was younger that completely changed me.

Speaker 21 Years later, I found myself thinking about that book again. I wanted the same edition back.
Not a reprint, not a different cover, that exact one. So I started searching.

Speaker 21 And that's when I found it on eBay. That's what I love about eBay.
It's not just a marketplace, it's a place where stories live. Shop eBay for millions of finds, each with a story.

Speaker 21 eBay, things people love.

Speaker 21 Listen to on purpose on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Speaker 5 You definitely know the importance of prevention in oral health. That's why the Colgate Total Active Prevention System was created.

Speaker 5 Con una pasta dental reformulada, unsepio de diente sinuvador y una en juage bucal antibacterial que yudana prevenir problemas de zalud bucal, like cavities and gingivitis. Antese qué piécin.

Speaker 5 Remember, oral health is more que solo tos unrisa, and oral diseases pueden aumentar el riesgo de otros problemas de salud.

Speaker 5 Which is why the connection between oral health and overall health is important.

Speaker 5 Menos mal que los 3s productos and Colgate Total active prevention system were designed to work together and serquine se veces más 5es al reducir el crecimento de bacterias en solos semanas, starting in week one, compared to a non-antibacterial fluoride toothpaste and flat-trim toothbrush to help you take control of your oral health.

Speaker 5 Combralo aora en shop punto Colgate punto com diagonal total. Proteje tu salud vocal.
Y be dentist ready.

Speaker 1 Explain to me the picture, because I look at that and I'm like, that is the craziest family portrait I've ever seen.

Speaker 22 Yeah, so when we were done, there was an option to get a picture taken. And so we did.
We got a picture with Melissa's dad.

Speaker 22 And to be honest with you, Google the internet, that'll probably be the first thing that pops up is a picture of melissa's dad my daughter my son and me and you could see the size gap of me versus him and he's just a massive man

Speaker 1 it must have been a blessing that the kids were too small to ask oh completely you know i

Speaker 22 Melissa and I were sensitive for a long time because people have asked us, how could you ever take your children around such a horrible person? And I think people don't understand what it was like.

Speaker 27 The whole room was full of children.

Speaker 22 Like kids were playing with their dads because their dads are coming to visit their children.

Speaker 22 And so, I think what was stranger is the fact that Melissa's dad, who murdered eight people, would be in general population with just normal criminals.

Speaker 22 Like, I think that's the real question: how could somebody do such horrific things and be amidst people that maybe like smoked weed and they were treated equally?

Speaker 1 Eventually, Melissa's inability to connect with Sam and to truly reciprocate his love took its toll.

Speaker 19 There was

Speaker 19 a comfort as roommates.

Speaker 19 We got along great and we were good friends. We still are good friends.
So it was easy to stay longer and longer in this relationship because we're such good friends.

Speaker 19 But I knew when he brought up three years ago that he wanted someone to be passionately in love with him,

Speaker 19 that he would find it probably with someone else.

Speaker 1 You guys just weren't happy.

Speaker 19 Yeah.

Speaker 19 I don't think we were,

Speaker 19 if he was on us, he would say he wasn't happy.

Speaker 19 He wouldn't say that he wasn't happy with me. He wasn't happy with living without those things that he wanted in his life.

Speaker 1 Sam said neither. He simply acknowledged the burden Keith's crimes placed on Melissa and how much he'd seen her struggle to atone for them.
But he never blamed her.

Speaker 22 I think it it has compelled Melissa to have to be harder on herself than the average person. And we're all pretty hard on ourselves as it is.
Like take whatever you are as a person and magnify that.

Speaker 22 I can only imagine

Speaker 22 she's had to deal with people saying that she was like collecting blood money by sharing her story,

Speaker 22 that we were irrational, bad parents by taking our kids to visit a serial killer in a prison. I mean, you put it in words.
Yeah, absolutely. You could build an argument to that.

Speaker 22 But when you put it into actuality of what really happened, it's the furthest thing from the truth. Our children have always come first from Melissa.

Speaker 22 And I think it's compelled her to have to over-exaggerate her feelings for other people, for herself, for her kids, always kind of on the defensive, trying to prove that she's not like her father.

Speaker 22 The burden she carries must be immense.

Speaker 1 And what's your take on Jesperson as opposed to your take on Melissa? Like if you had to be brutally honest about your take on him.

Speaker 22 So if I was to be brutally honest, I would say that he definitely corrupted his family and he made it so that they were in pain and in trauma and that pain and trauma is carried over into her future relationships.

Speaker 22 And it's made it so she's had to overcompensate to define who she is, to separate herself from who he is. And it's put her in a really difficult situation.

Speaker 22 And to say that there wasn't an impact would not be honest.

Speaker 1 What's Melissa's biggest fear?

Speaker 22 Abandonment, I think. I think she's afraid that she'll be alone and that she would end up being a lot like her dad.
That what everyone has said is true.

Speaker 22 I think that's probably her biggest fear. But I think that's changing.
Like I think she's becoming way more self-aware.

Speaker 22 I've seen how strong she was and I really just thought she could change the world.

Speaker 22 And I thought by by her sharing her story, other people could have hope.

Speaker 28 When I was 18, 19, I was still naive to the world

Speaker 28 on crime and everything.

Speaker 28 I was basically a good person that wouldn't, never

Speaker 28 push anything past anything. I would never do anything.
When did you stop caring?

Speaker 22 Well, my divorce,

Speaker 28 the different problems with my girlfriend and

Speaker 28 trucking and the jobs and everything kind of escalating. Can't trust nobody around me and I only trust myself.
And,

Speaker 28 you know,

Speaker 28 the cruelty of life just basically

Speaker 28 caused me to think, well, hell with this.

Speaker 1 What would you say if you could confront Jesperson on what he's done to Melissa, to his family, if he's listening to this, what do you hope he hears?

Speaker 22 I would tell him that the way he treated his daughter complicated my marriage, complicated Melissa's life,

Speaker 22 but didn't make it so it didn't get better. And he has no control of anything.

Speaker 22 Who he is is really insignificant.

Speaker 22 And

Speaker 22 because of the experiences that we've all gone through because of him, we're actually stronger and better.

Speaker 22 And it's okay

Speaker 19 that

Speaker 22 he's not remorseful for what he's done because everyone else's remorse makes up the difference. And if he goes away, he goes away alone and without thought.

Speaker 19 Everything.

Speaker 19 hurts about building a life with someone and

Speaker 19 then deciding to separate. I really discredited hearing from other people when they said they went through a divorce.
It just seemed almost so casual because I was so removed from their lives.

Speaker 19 But the pain is actually more intense than I ever thought was possible.

Speaker 19 It's

Speaker 19 mourning. Yeah, it's absolutely grieving.
There's anger. There are the five stages of grief for sure.
And I've gone through all of them and I've read every book I could read.

Speaker 19 And they say it takes like two years for you to feel normal again. And

Speaker 19 it's probably very similar to someone who lost someone that they loved to death in some ways,

Speaker 19 just because you're used to the little things, the day-to-day things, like calling after a meeting or when you get home having the dishes done already for you.

Speaker 19 you know, those you can lean on that person. And then when you when you divorce and separate, then now you have to create a new life, a new normalcy.

Speaker 22 She always talks about how she's leaned in on me, but I've always leaned in on her.

Speaker 22 Like, she went through such trauma and so much pain, and she found her voice. Even when it's not easy to do, she still continuously puts herself in situations that most people wouldn't do.

Speaker 22 She's so brave, and watching her be brave has helped me be brave.

Speaker 28 I like kids, I like my kids, but I wasn't really a family man. I really didn't want to be the family man.

Speaker 28 I didn't want the, I didn't want to end up like, well,

Speaker 28 put my kids through what I went through. And here I am

Speaker 28 putting them through worse than what I went through. You know, in a lot of things, because here they have to

Speaker 28 be raised with the idea that dad's a killer, a murderer.

Speaker 19 My fear still to this day is that I'm incapable of loving in the way that people expect me to love them.

Speaker 19 You know, Sam swears that I probably could love him the way he wants to be loved, but I don't believe

Speaker 19 I just don't want to lie to people. I don't want to feel like a fraud.
I've lived too many years feeling like a fraud.

Speaker 19 And I feel like the best policy is just to be up front and let people decide if this works for them or not. And so, with Sam, I've been really transparent with him to let him know that

Speaker 19 this is where I stand. This is what I am, am and

Speaker 19 my level of being able to give.

Speaker 1 Is it about control though? Is your fear of love about losing control, about letting go, about having something have power over you?

Speaker 19 Absolutely, because if you fall in love, you give up your leverage.

Speaker 19 You give up.

Speaker 19 You can be blindsided in a hot moment. And I don't want to ever be that vulnerable to be blindsided.
And I just

Speaker 19 don't want to risk that again.

Speaker 1 On the next Happy Face,

Speaker 1 Melissa faces her greatest fears and her father's demons.

Speaker 19 But it seems now that you want the world to know who you are. Not Melissa Moore.
but the daughter of the happy face killer.

Speaker 19 I've created a monster in you.

Speaker 19 This is why I don't read these fucking letters.

Speaker 18 Happy Face is a production of How Stuff Works. Executive producers are Melissa Moore, Lauren Bright Pacheco, Mangesh Hatikador, and Will Pearson.
Supervising producer is Noel Brown.

Speaker 18 Music by Claire Campbell, Paige Campbell, and Hope for a Golden Summer. Story editor is Matt Riddle.
Audio editing by Chandler Mays and Noel Brown. Assistant editor is Taylor Shacoyne.

Speaker 18 Special thanks to Phil Stanford, the publishers of the Oregonian newspaper, and the Carlisle family.

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Speaker 29 Hey guys, it's Aaron Andrews from Calm Down with Erin and Carissa. So as a sideline reporter, game day is extra busy for me, but I know it can be busy for parents everywhere.

Speaker 29 You're juggling snacks, nap time, and everything else.

Speaker 29 Well, Gerber can help create a more parent-friendly game day because they have the most clean label project certifications of any baby food brand.

Speaker 29 So you can feel good about what you're feeding your little ones. I mean, Mac loves them.
You can't go wrong with the little crunchies.

Speaker 29 You just put him in a little bag or you put him in a little container and he's good to go. Make sure to pick up your little ones' favorite Gerber products at a store near you.

Speaker 1 This is an iHeart podcast.