2025 Update: Rose

Pushkin.

Khalila Holt, welcome to the studio.

Jonathan Goldstein, thank you for welcoming me to the studio.

Getting a little bit of sarcasm.

Thank you.

Thank you for welcoming me.

Today we're going to be listening to an episode that originally ran, oh boy, like what, seven years ago or something?

It was in 2017, I'm pretty sure.

Oh my.

So

eight years ago.

It's a fan favorite.

Yeah, and it's one of my favorites too.

There's something I still quote from it, which is, I think she explains in the episode when she says, Pearl, I still think of Pearl to this day.

Wow.

Rose has had an impact on me.

And I'm sure she's going to have an impact on our listeners.

I'm sure she is.

Rose has an impact wherever she goes.

And if you stick around at the end of the episode, we're going to catch up with present-day Rose and see where she is all these years later, what she's up to.

Enjoy, everybody.

But don't start licking your chops quite yet.

That's disgusting.

Who wants to hear about chops?

Before you start enjoying, we are going to start off with a word from our sponsors.

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It's about being open to the extraordinary, the unusual.

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Hey, how are you?

I noticed that we're not Facebook friends.

Oh, we're not?

No.

I think, didn't you try to Facebook friend me?

I don't think I responded.

Do you know how embarrassing that is?

You won't even friend me.

Jonathan, we're better than Facebook friends.

We're real-life friends.

No, that's worse than Facebook friends because no one knows we're friends.

Let's go to the internet right now and let's friend each other at the exact same time.

No, we're not going to friend each other because I have to go to work right now.

Can't you take the computer with you?

I'm stepping out the door now and I have to get on my bicycle because I'm going to go to the next one.

Can you bounce the laptop on the handlebars?

And then

we could Facebook chat.

Don't you think that's a good idea if, like, if we both friend each other at the same time?

No.

Why not?

One, two, three, and then we press the button.

Ready?

It's hurtful.

From Gimlit Media, I'm Jonathan Goldstein, and this is Heavyweight.

Today's episode, Rose.

In 1962, the Beatles had their first number one hit, Love Me Do.

A lesser-known fact is that just months earlier, the band kicked out their original drummer, Pete Best.

The Beatles had their manager do the job.

The lads just don't want you in the band anymore, he said.

No further explanation was given.

But over the years, different theories emerged.

Pete Best didn't have the right hair.

Pete Best wasn't funny or artsy enough.

He didn't dress right.

For a long time afterwards, Pete Best wondered why his old friends had kicked him out.

But he got married, started a family.

Obla D, Obla Dah.

Life went on.

That's what happens.

People get kicked out of bands, parties, jobs.

And eventually, they stop searching for the reason why.

Most people do anyway.

So I moved into my college dorm when I was 17.

I was an incoming freshman in the fall of 2001.

This is Rose, and the school she was entering was the University of North Florida.

And it's like a beachy community.

I was like a cool surfer chick.

I drove like an old Volvo that was covered in like band stickers.

Rose was a rebel.

And if all the teen movies I'd watched during the mid-80s taught me anything about campus life, it was that rebels don't mix with popular kids.

And at the University of North Florida, nobody was more popular than the sorority girls.

Well, you like walk through school and they're set up there and they're like along the sidewalks.

And they're like, Are you interested in joining a sorority?

And I would just like blow by on my skateboard and be like, No.

I didn't think that I'd ever be affiliated with it.

Yeah, with

sorority life.

Yeah, with Greek life, with the sororities and the fraternities and like the cool kids and their pop collars.

Like, I didn't think that was for me.

So, the summer after my freshman year, I meet this dude and I start dating him.

And he's in a fraternity.

And I'm making friends with all these people in the Greek community, and I'm like, oh, they're normal, they're not pretentious, they're not weird.

I started to dress like them, I started to act like them, and I wanted to be accepted.

And the fall of my junior year, I rushed and I got a bid from Alpha Chi, and I joined.

Sorry, the name of the sorority was

called Alpha Chi Omega.

Alpha Chi Omega.

And we were the Theta Sigma chapter.

Steta Sigma

chapter.

Theta with a TH.

So it was the Theta Sigma chapter of Alpha Chi Omega, and it was at UNF Sororities.

It was a new and exciting world with such a rich history.

It turns out that Condoleezza Rice, Enron whistleblower Sharon Watkins, and Don Wells, who played Mary Ann on Gilligan's Island, were all members of Alpha Chi and had taken secret oaths to remain sisters for life.

I listen avidly as Rose explains what it means to be a part of Alpha Chi Omega Theta Sigma chapter.

We are classy ladies, we are sophisticated, we wear pearls, we know our manners, you know, like that.

Did they use the word classy?

You're not being classy.

Yeah, absolutely.

And they had like all these weird acronyms.

Like if someone came up to you and whispered in your ear, Pearl,

it was like the acronym for Pearl, P-E-A-R-L.

Please engage in acts resembling a lady.

So if someone says Pearl in your ear, that would mean you would begin to.

It would mean like, let's say I'm doing a keg stand at a party and another sister is there.

Instead of being like, young lady, get down right this instant because that's causing a scene.

Now you're causing attention.

Instead, she's supposed to tap me on the shoulder and whisper in my ear, Pearl.

And then I'm supposed to be like, oh, you're right, thank you for reminding me.

Rose took on new hobbies, scrapbooking with her sorority sisters, building floats for the homecoming parade, and dressing head to toe in scarlet, red, and olive green, the Alpha Chi Omega colors.

And while she'd never seen herself being cut out for all of this sorority stuff, the crazy thing was, it actually made her really happy.

I was gong-ho.

Like, I'm a participator.

I got really into it.

And just walking around school, now all of a sudden, like, you know everybody and everybody knows you.

And now you're in on the inside jokes.

Like, I felt like I belonged.

Like, I went from being like a disgruntled outsider to being like the bubbly participant.

Rose and her sorority sisters did everything together.

Beach trips, watching The Bachelor.

One weekend, they all ran a campus charity race together.

But afterwards, something felt amiss.

And I remember thinking, like, man, I feel really tired after that 5K.

And I'm having a lot of trouble sleeping.

And I keep sweating through my sheets at night.

Rose also noticed that her neck was swollen.

She was feeling achy and fatigued.

After a few weeks, she went to see a doctor.

And I said, could you take a look at my neck?

Like, I don't think something's right.

And the nurse practitioner who was treating me that day just like looked at me in horror and was like, you have to go to radiation right now.

And I was like, I have to make an appointment.

And she was like, no, I'm calling the second floor and you're going to go get a CT scan right now.

So it was crazy.

They called it nodular sclerosing Hodgkin's lymphoma.

I had huge pronounced lymph nodes all over my body.

You could take one look at me and it looked like my neck and chest were just full of golf balls.

Like something was wrong.

By the time we started testing and staging, I mean, I was a stage three.

This is like big cake cancer.

This is like, shave your head, Rose, like you've got real cancer.

So I think around May, I started chemo.

Rose dropped out of her classes and quit her extracurriculars.

Her days filled up with doctor's appointments and chemotherapy.

The one bright note throughout was the support she got from her sorority sisters.

They took her to concerts and Jacksonville Jaguar football games.

They sold hot pink ribbons in the quad and raised thousands of dollars for Rose's treatment.

Alpha Chi took care of Rose, and Rose was dedicated to Alpha Chi.

She was on the executive board, in charge of recruiting new members.

And even through her cancer, she kept up with her work.

And new girls are coming through, and they have to decide which sorority they want to join.

And now Alpha Chi has like one hell of a tale to tell.

Now, we're not just a regular sorority, we're the sorority with the cancer girl, and we're saving her life.

And that was something that they led with?

That was actually something that was made explicit.

Oh, I got up there with my bald head and gave a speech and cried every time about how my sisters were saving my life.

Rose was lucky.

By the spring of her senior year, her cancer went into remission.

For the first time in more than a year, she felt like a normal college kid.

I just had a lot of fun that semester.

My hair's starting to grow back.

I'm starting to get my energy back.

I'm starting to feel like a normal person.

And like, now I'm not just going to a party to like, you know, make sure I'm getting out of the house.

Like, now I want a to party.

Like, now I want to have fun.

And so I did.

I felt like I deserved it.

Then one night, after being cancer-free for five months, Rose went to Alpha Chi's weekly meeting, which met in an old auditorium on campus.

And I come to the meeting, and they're like, hey, Rose, can you stay after?

We need to talk to you.

So they clear everybody out.

And now it's just like five or six women and me.

And they're like, all right, Rose, like, this is going to be tough.

We're going to have to ask you to resign.

And I was like, excuse me?

Yeah, we're going to have to ask you to resign.

And I thought they meant from my position, my officer position,

I'm like, you're asking me to step down as VP recruitment?

Like, the new girls love me.

I'm great with the new girls.

Why?

I've got this marketing on lock.

And they're like, oh, no, no, no.

We want you to resign.

from the organization.

We want you to resign from Alpha Chi.

And I lost it.

It's like, you know, that feeling when someone's breaking up with you and like you get that cold feeling in your chest and you know that someone's about to look at you and say like, this isn't working?

Yeah.

It was like that times 100.

Like now 100 of my friends were all breaking up with me in a very methodical way and I didn't see it coming.

And I just kept saying, why?

What do you mean you want me out?

And this is when they just, all of a sudden, it was like these women I'd known for years, they were strangers.

And there was no compassion.

There was no kindness.

It was, you know what you did, Rose.

You know what you did.

And I was like, no,

no, you have to tell me.

What did I do?

Did something bad happen?

Rose, we're not getting into it.

You know what you did.

And I'm just like,

no, no, I don't know what I did.

And at this point, I am so distraught.

I think I'm like hyperventilating and crying.

I think I'm ugly crying.

I think like snot is just bubbling out of my nose.

And I don't, I don't have the wherewithal to demand answers.

And I'm like, so that's it?

We're done here.

You want me out?

And they're like, yeah, as of tonight, you are no longer affiliated with Alpha Chi Omega.

She was getting straight A's.

She was on the student council.

She'd never done anything illegal.

But Rose was out.

And no one would tell her why.

No one has ever told me.

And did you ever pursue it further?

God, yes, for years.

Like, hey, guys, it's been five years since we graduated college.

I know this is kind of weird, but I still think about it.

Does anyone want to tell me?

I've like done the thing on Facebook where I've like made the big Facebook post where I'm like, all right, does everyone remember when Rose got kicked out of Alpha Chi?

Like if you or anyone you know has any information, like I'm still dying to know.

And then like dozens of my friends are like, oh, I'm following this post.

What was it?

What was it?

And still to this day, no answers.

And like, you're racking your brain.

I'm like, did I get blackout drunk and sleep with someone's boyfriend?

Did you ever see any other of the sisters get kicked out?

No, no.

And that's the thing is like, okay, let's not mince words here.

Like, was Rose a party girl?

Yes.

Were there girls who were way worse than me?

Absolutely.

And did did they get kicked out?

Never.

Does Rose refer to herself in the third person?

Yes.

Does she present a puzzling riddle?

Absolutely.

And would Jonathan quit before solving it?

Never.

Rose's college memories have all been tainted by that one day 12 years ago.

But her ex-sorority sisters are now adult women in their 30s.

They had to be past the college drama.

So after Rose and I part, I begin reaching out to them for their help.

Hey, Amanda, this is Jonathan Gouldstein.

Hey, Trish.

I've been trying to get in touch.

Hey, Nita, I was trying to reach you.

Hi there, Facebook.

Zoe, this is Jonathan Gouldstein.

Hopefully we'll speak soon, Claire.

I phoned them in their cars.

Hi, hang on one second.

I've got my daughter walking into ballet class.

Give me one second.

Sure, no, of course.

I phoned them in their homes.

Do you have a minute to speak?

I do.

I have a toddler just so you know.

Oh, yeah, no, that's fine.

High on sugar, because she she just stole the bag of jelly to eat me.

But yes, no, I cannot pick you up right now.

I'm not picking you up.

No, I'm sorry.

But not one of Rose's ex-sorority sisters can tell me why she'd been kicked out.

Some say they don't remember.

It was so long ago.

Others say they never knew why.

There were nearly 100 women in Alpha Chi, but only a handful had been in the room when Rose was kicked out.

One of these women was named Amber.

When I phone her, she's busy, but tells me to call back.

So a few days later, I do.

Hey, Amber, this is Jonathan Goldstein.

I think we spoke briefly some time ago.

Hello.

I call back, and Amber apologizes for our being disconnected.

But when I ask her why Rose was kicked out, again, the line goes dead.

This is odd.

Odder still is a conversation with an Alpha Chi sister a year younger than Rose.

She says she inherited all the disciplinary documents from Rose's year, but that one file was missing: the one detailing why Rose had been kicked out.

Things were beginning to feel Kaludi.

Hello?

Oh, hey, Rose.

Hi.

I call Rose to update her, but it seems she's already gotten wind of my doings.

So, I think you must have been reaching out to a bunch of different members of AlphaChi?

Word had started getting around on Facebook about some guy snooping around on Rose's behalf.

Quickly, a consensus was reached.

Shut this guy out.

Just the way that some of the girls were replying and the thread, it just felt like 12 years hadn't even passed.

And how do you mean?

It was just like immediately this whole group dynamic took place, and all of a sudden, instead of people acting like mature adults who are in their 30s,

it was this whole like mom mentality of this is sketchy, we shouldn't respond.

And then everyone just started to follow in line and be like, Yeah, it was sketchy.

Yeah, I'm not gonna call them.

Yeah, okay, we're gonna have to go over their heads.

How?

Alpha Chi Omega Headquarters.

This is Susan.

The Alpha Chi Omega National Headquarters is a large brick building at the end of a long tree-lined cul-de-sac in Indianapolis, Indiana.

It oversees all Alpha Chi Omega sororities across the country.

Anytime a sorority kicks someone out, it has to file a report with headquarters.

I asked Susan, the receptionist, if there might be documents that explain Rose's termination.

Okay, yes, I'm sure there are.

Okay, great.

And in your experience, is this something that comes up sometimes where people want to know why they might have been kicked out of a sorority, or is this uncommon?

Well, I would think most people would know why.

Yeah, what happened in her case,

this is

a woman by the name of Rose Shapiro.

How do you spell her last name?

Shapiro, I think it must be spelled S-H-A-

Okay, wait a minute.

S H

K?

No, S H A

P as in Peter I R OK, yes, I did find her in here.

Oh, okay.

Does it say anything

with alongside her name?

I'm just looking at a status.

So you're so then there is some information alongside her name.

I'm not going to

because, I mean, I'm I can't say anything about this member.

I wouldn't know her at all.

And,

you know,

you're an outsider.

You're not the member.

If Rose Shapiro were to call you herself, would she be able to find out the information?

I would think so, sure.

Well,

we'll just have to see.

After the break, a couple of outsiders try to get some inside information.

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There's more to San Francisco with the Chronicle.

There's more food for thought, more thought for food.

There's more data insights to help with those day-to-day choices.

There's more to the weather than whether it's going to rain.

And with our arts and entertainment coverage, you won't just get out more, you'll get more out of it.

At the Chronicle, knowing more about San Francisco is our passion.

Discover more at sfchronicle.com.

Drew and Sue and Eminem's minis.

And baking the surprise birthday cake for Lou.

And Sue forgetting that her oven doesn't really work.

And Drew remembering that they don't have flour.

And Lou getting home early from work, which he never does.

And Drew and Sue using the rest of the tubes of Eminem's Minis as party poppers instead.

I think this is one of those moments where people say, it's the thought that counts.

Eminem's, it's more fun together.

Hey.

Rose?

Yes.

Hi.

Hi.

How's it going?

Good.

You ready to get some answers?

I tell Rose about my call with Susan, the receptionist, and we hatch a plan for contacting headquarters.

I think I'll call it and connect you, and I'll just be quiet.

All right, let's call.

I'm ready.

I'm ready for this.

Okay, I'm gonna call right now.

Alpha Chi Omega headquarters.

This is Susan.

Hi, Susan.

My name is Rose.

And

lying on my stomach on the floor of the darkened studio, I finally feel like a real-life popular girl.

As I play with the phone cord and silently nibble from a pan of brownies, Rose explains what happened.

a member of Alpha Chi Omega, the Theta Sigma chapter.

Okay, and what's your name?

It's Rose Shapiro.

Okay.

All right, I'm going to give you to Mindy Tarwater.

Okay, before you transfer, I did have just one more question for you.

Is there any way that you can just tell from a general perspective if I'm considered as a member in good standing or as a former member?

Is there even, is there anything

in my past?

Yeah,

I think it says that you're not in good standing.

I wish I could help you, but I don't know that.

Let me see here.

Mindy is out this afternoon, but she's working tomorrow.

Why don't we leave a message with Mindy?

Sure.

Yeah, I think you should do that.

Rose leaves a message with this Mindy tar water.

When she doesn't hear back after a week, we call again.

Over the next month, we keep calling, with Rose leaving voicemails and me scraping weeks-old brownie crust from the pan while listening in for emotional support.

Okay, you're on, Rose.

At the tone, please record your message.

Hi, Mindy.

My name is Rose Shapiro.

Susan, the receptionist, passes her off to other people at headquarters.

Someone named Gina?

Let's try Gina, hold on.

Then someone named Eliza.

Eliza Payne is not available to take your call.

Please leave a message after the tone.

Hi, Eliza.

Eliza, this is Rose Shapiro.

Trying you again.

One morning we phone only to discover that Susan the receptionist has been disappeared, possibly for saying too much.

Alpha Chi Omega Headquarters, this is Cynthia.

Or Susan had the day off.

Hi Cynthia, my name is Rose Shapiro and I'm a former member of the...

And Cynthia, she sent Rose right back to Mindy Tarwater.

Hi, Mindy.

This is Rose Shapiro.

I'm the member.

In the end, after months of phone calls, Rose finally hears back from Alpha Chi Omega headquarters.

They pass along a single document, a letter dated April 21st, 2005.

The letter is brief, plainly stating that Rose Shapiro resigned from Alpha Chi Omega of her own accord.

They have no other information to share.

We know now definitely that the only way that we're going to get anywhere with this is actually by finding a sorority girl who was there and willing to talk.

Rose's confidence in me was waning.

While she used to drop everything for one of my updates, now she was sounding bored and distracted.

What are you doing right now?

I'm cutting potatoes.

Yeah, I'm cutting potatoes.

I'm about to make some mashed potatoes.

Okay, but the cut, the chopping might not be so great

recorded.

Fine.

My calls were becoming a nuisance.

Rose, what are you cleaning out your fridge?

No, I'm done.

I was starting to feel done, too.

I had nothing.

But a couple weeks later, I get a call from one of Rose's ex-sorority sisters, a woman named Trisha.

Initially, Trisha hadn't been willing to talk, but over the months, she she thought about it and had a change of heart.

I call Rose to share with her our good fortune.

As soon as you finish scrubbing all your cookie pans.

I'm not scrubbing any pans today.

I'm not chopping any potatoes.

All right, so.

Trisha wasn't just any old sorority sister.

She was one of the six girls in the room who kicked Rose out of Alpha Kai.

And not only that, Trisha and Rose joined Alpha Kai around the same time, and people saw them as partners in crime.

Goofing at parties, singing show tunes only they knew.

She was someone Rose had legitimately liked and trusted.

I explained to Rose that since Trisha was the only person willing to speak to us, she might be our last chance to get an answer.

So during the conversation, we'd need to tread lightly.

And I sensed that treading lightly might not be Rose's strongest suit.

The situation required coaxing, possibly even some cajoling, and caution, plenty of caution.

We would need the perfect moment for Rose to spring the question that's been gnawing at her for years.

Why did you kick me out?

So I decide that a code word is in order.

A word I can use to signal to Rose that the time is right.

I have plenty of experience with code words.

Dinner party going too late and I want people out of my home.

Medicine balls I'll say to the missus and she'll produce a CD of my old spoken word band.

Mattress shopping and need to communicate my bottom line while avoiding the prying ears of predatory mattress salesmen?

Medicine balls, I'll say.

So every situation requires its own special code word and the hours I'd spent crafting this one had been well worth it.

Okay, what's the code word gonna be?

So, okay, so I was thinking maybe

medicine balls?

No that's so awkward to insert into the conversation.

Yeah

I scramble together my list of plan B code words.

Toilet bowl, toilet plunger, turkey toilet, eau de toilette.

That's very Canadian.

How about if I were to say without a do or a don't?

Is that something that people say?

Well, I'd say, well, for the better part of an hour, Rose and I bat around ideas.

Yes, we have no tomatoes.

Boy, are my dogs barking.

Some people call me Maurice.

Finally, Rose is satisfied.

How about I say, and so it goes?

That's what I'll say.

And so it goes.

Okay.

And so it goes.

Okay, I'm writing that down.

So that's going to be our code word, okay?

So when I say, and so it goes,

you're going to say,

you know, Tricia, like, what?

Just

what happened?

We had a plan.

We had a code word.

It was time

for another word from our sponsors.

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Hello.

Hey, Tricia.

Hey.

So I have Rose on the line.

I think you guys can hear each other.

Rose?

Hi.

Hi.

It's been years since they've spoken, so Rose and Tricia catch up.

But mostly, they reminisce about Homecoming, the big talent show,

how they were both awarded best new sorority member.

And they were like, we've never done this before, but

here you go.

Oh, my God.

I totally forgot about that.

We did die for best new member.

Yeah.

The conversation eventually turns to Rose's cancer going into remission.

And that's when their memories diverge.

According to Tricia, after Rose was diagnosed as cancer-free, she became a different person and started to veer onto what Tricia calls a bad past.

I think you got angry, and not at certain people, but just at like every situation at life, you know?

I don't necessarily remember an anger reaction.

It's not like you were

like pushing people down or punching them in the face.

To me, I think that what I perceived was like partying, partying with fraternities, like drinking a lot, like YOLO lifestyle, but also with like two big middle fingers up that's just like, yo, no one's going to tell me what to do or how to live my life.

I just have a perception of myself that's like, ooh, I beat cancer.

Like all bets are off, man.

Like, now I get to do what I want.

Like, I did my time.

Like, now

I'm like, if I want to be drunk on a Tuesday, I deserve to be drunk on a Tuesday because, hey, I just beat cancer.

Like, I think you were there was separating.

The conversation was taking a turn from happy reminiscence to battling perceptions of the past.

Before things could escalate any further, something needed to be said.

I think that, um, and and and so it and so it goes.

I think that just.

Rose got the memo and was back on point.

I think for me, Trish, and like, I don't know if you can understand this part of it.

Getting kicked out, like, I had no idea was coming.

Yeah.

I'm sorry.

And I sincerely wish that I could give you like a list of like, this is what it was, this is what it was, this is what it was.

I honestly like can't.

I can't became a common refrain.

Rose would ask why she'd been kicked out, and Tricia would say she wants to tell Rose, but she just can't.

Can't talk about it, can't get into it.

Like, I wish I could give you specific instance instance of, like, at this party, you said this.

Does that make sense?

Like, I don't know if you can.

It wasn't making sense to me.

I don't know.

And I worried that it wasn't making sense to Rose either.

So I try to clarify.

Literally, like, I'm not sure whether it's a matter of like you do know, but you feel an obligation to kind of hold the secrets of the sorority all these years later.

Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, no, I

and maybe like

I would say no.

Like, was there some kind of oath or something like that?

Or was it because you don't remember?

Well, any CR meeting was like,

you're under oath.

everything that happens in here stays in here.

And so

there was a confidentiality, a big confidentiality piece to those meetings.

I get the feeling that Tricia and the rest of her sisters still feel some obligation to protect the secrets and reputation of an organization they joined in their 20s.

This was, I think, the hardest thing was to think of the health of the chapter as a whole and how maintaining the health of the whole thing sometimes hurts like one or two people.

By the end of the call, Rose had become uncharacteristically quiet.

So after we all say our goodbyes, I check back in with her about how she felt the call went.

I think it sounds like she has some memories, but she's not sure where she picked them up or who she'd be betraying if she talked about them.

She's always going to believe, and everyone else in that room is always going to believe, that there was something about my behavior that was

unbecoming to the image of the sorority.

And I mean she almost called me a cancer.

She almost said like for the health of the organization I had to be removed.

I don't think Trisha's a bad person.

I really enjoyed reconnecting with her.

I think she's a cool girl but ultimately what I got from her is that she doesn't think kicking me out was a mistake.

For the next few weeks, I try to find someone, anyone, who might know why Rose was kicked out.

I phoned people in the alumni office, in student relations, people who weren't even in Rose's sorority.

Just on the long shot, they might have heard something.

And then one day, I get a call back from Rick.

Rick was Rose's college boyfriend.

They dated all through her illness.

And when we eventually spoke, there was something he told me that seemed too strange to be a coincidence.

Hey!

Hi, how are you?

Oh, shit.

I have to like drive through the bank drive-through right now, real quick.

Always a lot going on.

After Rose is done with her personal banking, I tell her the news.

I phoned up Rick.

Okay.

And one of the things, though, that he shared with me, and I wonder, I mean, I feel like you must know this,

though we've not ever talked about it, is the fact that he was also kicked out of his fraternity

Holy shit

Wait, what?

Yeah, like at the time he was also kicked out of his fraternity of KA KA kicked out Rick Niedringhouse.

Yeah

Rick was kicked out of his fraternity around the same time as Rose was kicked out of Alpha Kai Just like Rose Rick had been the only person kicked out in years, and he never got an answer as to why.

But unlike Rose, Rick has a theory about it, one that explains why both of them got kicked out.

I suggest to Rose that maybe it'd be a good idea for her and Rick to talk.

Yeah, we should make that happen.

Can you guys hear each other?

Hi, I can hear Rick.

Hey, how are you?

Rick's now a contractor.

When I reach him, he's sitting in his idling truck at a construction site.

Not long after their breakup, Rose graduated and moved out of Florida.

The two haven't spoken in years, and this is the first time they've talked about getting kicked out.

Right away, they start trading stories.

Mine was just a phone call, and it was a phone call from one of our brothers that was a founding father, Chaz, and just basically said, Hey, you're uh,

you're you're done here.

That is so insane.

You were like the responsible one.

That's so insane.

Oh my god.

I don't know.

Before they get to Rick's theory, the two of them talk about old times, eventually winding their way back to the days when they were a couple.

When Rose was diagnosed with cancer, Rick actually moved her into his apartment.

He drove her to doctor's appointments, cooked her meals.

After the pink ribbons had been sold and the fundraising had ended, Rick was the one waiting at home to look after her at her most sick and vulnerable.

Do you remember being, were you scared at any point, Rick?

Like, you fear that Rose was going to die?

Of course.

I mean,

you hear the word cancer, and that's obviously one of the things that you're going to think about.

You know, we had been dating for a little bit, but it wasn't a great length of time before this even happened.

So, you know, you take those feelings that you have for somebody, and I mean, you're still developing a relationship.

And then all of a sudden you go through and like, hey, you know, you have cancer.

So, yeah, I mean, the entire process is

It's terrifying.

And I was like bald and my skin was turning gray.

And, like, there he was, like going to functions with me and being my boyfriend.

And I remember one time, I'm in the middle of chemo.

I am bald.

I'm like not doing well.

And we go down to Daytona to watch the NASCAR event because it's right around my birthday.

It's the beginning of July.

And then this freak thunderstorm comes out of nowhere and the temperature dropped like a crazy amount.

It downpours.

We get completely soaked.

And now there's like chemo rose is freezing.

I have no immune system.

I'm just like teeth chattering.

And so Rick took me over to the vendor area and he bought me this like head-to-toe windbreaker outfit of Daryl Earnhardt Jr.

Oh my God.

Do you remember that?

I do.

You look like you pretty much belonged to that fan base.

I looked like a 12-year-old boy who was sitting in the bleachers with like his older brother's cool friends.

In spite of all they'd been through, pretty quickly after her cancer went into remission, Rose broke up with Rick.

And although Rick was sad, he understood it.

Rose needed to have

some time to be able to go and experience life.

And so when that took place, her and I split.

A lot of people are are like, oh, well, you know, you split because oh, she's in remission and needs to go and kind of live her life.

Well, that's kind of a shit way of doing it because, I mean, hell, didn't you take care of her?

Yeah, but I mean, she's got to figure herself out.

We both got it, but we got it.

And nobody else really understood.

Which brings us to Rick's theory.

Rick says that after he and Rose broke up, people took sides.

Rick's friends were mad at Rose, and Rose's friends were mad at Rick, and each side started rumors about the other.

And in that fog of rumors, both of their good names were ruined.

It was like the breakup version of The Gift of the Magi.

And as they talk, something in Rick's theory seems to click for Rose.

Absolutely.

That theory has never crossed my mind.

Like, I am sure someone who felt close to Rick and thought that maybe I had done him wrong or something could have gotten blown out of proportion by people who felt like defensive or protective on either side of that equation.

Absolutely.

I mean, I remember, you know, people coming up to me that were, I mean, not even friends of mine.

going, oh, hey, I heard you and Rose split up and I heard she was cheating on you for two years or was cheating on you for, you know, the two months before y'all split with another guy from PyCap.

You remember Trip?

Oh, yeah.

He was the one comes by my apartment one time and is like, oh man, I walked into her apartment and she was having sex with some dude on the stairs.

On the stairs?

On the stairs.

These rumors confirmed what a lot of Rose's sorority sisters were beginning to think about her after her cancer went into remission.

That she was too wild, too much of a partier.

But how do you kick out a poor, innocent cancer survivor from your sorority?

It's a lot easier if she's not so poor and innocent, if she betrayed the loving boyfriend who saw her through her illness.

These rumors must have been just what the sorority had been waiting for.

It gave them the moral high ground to get rid of her.

So while Rose's sorority sisters thought her cancer recovery had changed her, Rick saw the experience as having changed her back to the person she'd been before joining Alpha Chi.

When she started getting into Alpha Chi, I'm like,

what?

Like,

really?

You're gonna, you're gonna go that route?

Because that's not her.

Rose, are you a Beatles fan?

Yes.

Rose had never heard the story of Pete Best, so I explain how he was kicked out of the Beatles.

I tell her about all the different theories I'd heard for why he was kicked out, the hair, the style.

But how lately, looking at old photos of the band with Pete Best hunched in the background, it all seems a lot simpler.

When you look at the old photographs of those guys, of the Beatles with Pete Best altogether,

like, he just doesn't look like a Beatle, you know?

And in the final analysis, it's sort of like, why was he kicked out of the Beatles just because he just kind of didn't seem like a Beatle.

I get the analogy you're driving at here, and I think you're right.

Like, ultimately, I just wasn't an Alpha Chi.

I just wasn't like them.

And I can't necessarily put into words or a definition what made them similar and made me different, but I just know that I was different.

Rose, have you ever considered, like, had you not gotten cancer that maybe they would have forced you out earlier?

God, probably.

I think I was doing a really good job of trying to assimilate early on and I was like on my best behavior, but I think that like the real me just kept like cracking out.

And then once, once after going through the whole cancer thing, then it's like, oh, let's not put on airs anymore.

Like I am who I am.

And I was trying really hard to like cram myself into that mold and it just wasn't fitting.

Like, it just wasn't working.

Yeah, like, I think, like, in having spoken to quite a few of your old sorority sisters,

I mean, none of them sound like you.

No, and I mean that in a

nice way.

No, I'm totally down with that.

Like, I'm a fucking maniac, and that's who I am.

And I've come to fully embrace that right now.

Like,

I'm really cool with who I am.

Well, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm, uh, I'm cool with who you are, also.

Thank you.

Years after getting kicked out of the Beatles, Pete Bess said he was still hopeful that maybe one day he'd find out why.

Maybe I'll run into Paul, he said, and we can talk about it.

If decades from now, Rose should run into one of her sorority sisters, I hope she won't need to talk about anything other than the weather.

or what she's making for supper.

And then she could say her goodbyes and get back to chopping, banking, and basically being the maniac that she is.

Now that the furniture's returning to its goodwill home

Now that the last month's rent is skeening with the damage deposit Take this moment to decide

if we meant it if we tried

but felt around for far too much

from things that accidentally touched.

Rose?

Yes.

Hi.

Hi.

There's a siren going by.

I know.

There's always so much going on in your life.

Let me start with the question that probably everyone is curious about.

Have you, in the intervening years, have you run into any of your sorority sisters?

No, it was kind of a secret wish, like maybe someone will hear the podcast and they'll finally fess up to what was going on.

But I haven't like bumped into someone in town who told me like, oh, this is what happened.

It was also,

as the kids would say, sus.

It's a very insular world.

And

I think the biggest takeaway I have from that whole sorority debacle is that for whatever whatever reason I didn't assimilate.

And instead of being frustrated by that, I've now kind of carried it like a badge of honor.

I'm not putting any energy trying to fit a square peg into a round hole these days.

Do you feel as though you've put something to rest?

Oh yeah.

Yeah,

it feels very far away now.

What do you think that owes to?

Maturity?

Distance?

Time?

Time is the great interlocutor.

Absolutely.

I could have just stayed out of the way, basically, and just let nature take its course, and it would have been just as successful.

I would have got here on my own.

What are you drinking there?

Some mint tea, a little herbal tea in the afternoon.

Wow, you've really become so mature.

Yeah, I've mellowed out a lot.

Yeah.

Hey, can I ask you a question?

Sure thing.

Does Rose still refer to herself in the third person?

Jonathan.

Not as much.

Not as much, I gotta admit.

I should bring it back.

Rose should.

Yeah.

Rose likes this suggestion.

There we go.

How did that feel?

Uh, a little uncomfortable.

Yeah.

Thanks to everyone who helped put this episode together.

We'll be back next week with another Encore presentation and along with it, another update from our guest.

This is Jana Kramer from Windown with Jana Kramer.

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