2nd Annual Fantasy Extravaganza!!!

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Hello, and welcome to the second annual Heed the Call Fantasy Extravaganza.

Today's guests include Matthew Berry of NBC Sports, Matt Harmon of Yahoo Sports, Pat Dougherty of NBC Sports, and Lindsey Rhodes of Sumer Sports.

Your host is two-time League of Record champion and 2015 overall points leader, Dan Hansis.

The producer is Justin Graver, a two-time fantasy champion.

Also, Mark is here.

Let's get on with the show.

Everybody, have fun tonight.

Everybody, Wang Chung tonight.

Welcome to the second annual Fantasy Extravaganza.

Mark Zessler.

Well, okay.

You know, you two are up to your old tricks.

I understand that.

But the idea that the show has crept into a territory where,

and it is an extravaganza, that word cannot be, that's a rare, that should be a rarely used term, and it applies to this.

But the fact that the producer is now second in build on the show

is a disturbance to me.

Huh.

Yeah.

And

their lack of the photo there, that was just an oversight in production that we could address.

No doubt.

No doubt.

I'm sorry, Mark.

The last thing I want to do is get this off on the wrong foot.

This is a very important episode.

This is for all the fans of Heed the Call that really want to get that last

session in, that last study session in ahead of their fantasy drafts.

And we have all these great guests.

So

I think overall,

it's a positive thing, and we should dwell on the positives.

I'm choosing to for the rest of the show because we've got a killer lineup with some of our favorite people, some old friends.

And let's dig right in.

Let's get into it.

All right.

All right.

It's time now to welcome our first guest.

He is one of the leading voices in the fantasy sports world.

Writer, columnist, television personality.

He was just on Fallon, for Christ's sake.

You can find all of his work over at NBC Sports.

It's Matthew Berry.

Welcome to Heed the Call, Matthew.

Hey, thanks, guys.

Thanks for having me.

Congratulations on the rebirth.

Thank you, sir.

You know, and, you know,

it's been cool.

It's been cool to see.

Thanks, man.

Appreciate that.

And there's a reason why we have Mr.

Barry Batten leadoff because you got to do it right.

And I want to start, you know, let's start.

Let's get right into it because a long-standing contention that I've had with the traditional fantasy formats, 12-team formats, for instance, is quarterback, you know, is the most important position in the sport.

And yet in many of these leagues, they don't come off the board until later for obvious reasons.

That's why I vouch for a two-quarterback system in a 10-team league.

But listen, not everybody does that.

Yep.

For Matthew Berry,

are there quarterbacks to you that are so good and so valuable and versatile that you will make an early-round pick of them, or is it strategically better in a one QB starting league just to always hang back?

No, I listen.

I think it all depends on your league.

It depends on your league mates.

It depends on sort of your scoring system and everything like that.

But what I will say is that this particular year, I do think there is a tier of the elite guys.

I have them Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson, Jaden Daniels, Jalen Hurts, fairly chalk for the industry.

But

I tend to find myself either grabbing one of those four or waiting.

You know, listen, I do think Burrow's going to have a big year, but that middle section, the Burrow, the Mahomes, the Knicks, some of those guys, I'd rather wait.

Like if I don't get one of those elite guys, I think there's more value to be had.

you know, in the Brock Purdy, Dak Prescott world.

I will say I will reach a little bit for Justin Fields.

I have Justin Fields as QB nine.

I think he's going like QB13 in consensus.

And so I do think Fields, because of the rushing floor, is a little bit more different.

But there's Jared Goff.

There's just so many kind of solid pocket passers that if you're not getting one of those elite dual threat quarterbacks at the top, one of those first four guys, I think you can wait.

Yeah, I'm looking at Justin Fields as an interesting guy to bring up because camp reports and preseason has been a little spotty, but he is locked and loaded as the Jet starter and does have Garrett Wilson on his team.

You look around him as an example.

Yeah, Dan, to be clear, to be clear, all the camp reports are about Justin Fields as an NFL quarterback, which I think it's very fair to say

there's a ton of questions about whether or not he's a franchise guy.

We're talking fantasy.

Okay.

And in fantasy, he's literally never failed.

You know what I mean?

Like he's never been less than QB nine on a points per game basis when he's been a starter.

Last year, in the six games that he played with the Steelers, he was QB7 on a points-per-game basis.

You know what I mean?

I mean, like

he's got a QB5 finish.

He's got a QB9 finish on his point-per-game basis.

And I would argue that in New York, he is in the best position he's been in his career.

He doesn't have Russell Wilson looking over him.

He doesn't have a dysfunctional front offense coaching staff in Chicago where his best weapon is Darnell Mooney.

Again, I think there are legit questions as to whether or not he's a legit NFL quarterback, whether

he can be a franchise guy, but he's a, for his career, he averages over 50 rushing yards a game.

It's like stupid.

Yeah, and it's a great point because that means, you know, in fantasy, he could be a guy that you plug and play and he could be a dependable starter for you, but the Jets could be picking into top five next year.

Like these things aren't mutually exclusive.

Ceci, you want to jump in?

I think that when we're trying to draft and learn how to draft, like, yes, there's so much talk about the top one or two rounds, but there's these players that I think you've got to make a real decision on.

You wrote in your incredible 100 Facts You Need to Know Before You Draft in 2025.

It came out last week on NBC Sports.

You got to read this thing if you care about this hobby at all.

You talked about two running backs.

Running back A

is an absolute fantasy superstar.

Running back B is on a bunch of bus lists this year.

And both running back A and running back B are James Cook.

And it kind of raises the question of like the conundrum of like, how do we make decisions on a player like that when the top, the very top running backs are off the board?

How do you make that decision?

Yeah, it's a great question.

So what you're talking about is that the point of 100 facts is that

I believe you can make statistics, say whatever you want them to say.

And so in that scenario,

I talked up running back A and I talked about all the great things and why this guy was going to be a superstar smash this year.

And I talked about the fact that he had the 16 rushing touchdowns last year and how efficient he was, et cetera.

And then the bust guy,

running back B is a guy who is playing less than 50% of this team snaps, less than 50% in the red zone, has an 8% target share,

seems to be being used less and less.

At the time that I wrote it, he was holding out.

That there's a running back on the team that's younger than him, that the team drafted more recently, and so is the writing on the wall, blah, blah, blah.

And they're right.

They're both James Cook.

And everything I wrote about James Cook as a superstar and everything I wrote about James Cook as a bust is 100% true.

It's just about the facts that you choose to present.

And so,

you know, and you're sort of shading it, right?

I told the truth.

Ray Davis is younger than James Cook by two months.

I mean, you know what I mean?

Like, so anyway, that, but the point there of that article is,

and it leading to your, to answer your question, Mark, is that like, how do you, as a player, how do we judge all this?

Because it used to be it was a problem trying to get information.

Now the problem is there's too much information.

You know, you've got 8 billion beat writers tweeting out, you know, every single catch that somebody makes in practice.

And so it's like sorting through.

And I think the answer to your question about, as a general rule, is find somebody you trust.

Find somebody that you say, like, that person's thinking aligns with mine, because we're all giving opinions, opinions supported by film work and stats and insight information, but they're all just opinions.

We're all just talking about players saying, I think this and you guys think that, and we'll see,

right?

And listen, NFL coaches don't know.

Like we just saw it recently, right?

Chris Ballard and Shane Steichen, two pretty smart guys.

spent a fifth overall pick on Anthony Richardson.

And two days ago, they basically said, yep, we were wrong.

We screwed that one up.

Like,

you know, so I mean, if guys that do nothing but that for a living, that study the film, that get to interview the players that talk about it, and even they have to throw up their hands and say, you know what, we screwed this one up,

you know, what chance to any of us have.

But I think, in terms of specific to James Cook, it depends on,

it depends on, hey, where am I in the draft?

What are my team's needs?

What are my roster construction?

I think every player has value.

James Cook has value this year.

It's just at what cost?

I think the people that are drafting him based thinking he's going to do what he did last year are going to be in it for disappointment.

My love hate list comes out tomorrow and James Cooks is going to be on it because I think he's being drafted way too high.

I think he is closer to the guy that scored a couple of touchdowns his first two years and not the guy that scored 16 last year rushing and 18 overall.

Again, you know, he...

He's not involved in the passing game.

He plays less than 50% of the snaps.

So he really needs that touchdown equity to have that floor.

And if he gets 10 this year, which would be amazing, that'd be a great year if James Cook gets 10 touchdowns.

But that's not the 18 that he had last year.

Anyway,

let's move to the wide receiver.

Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.

Yeah,

wonderfully, wonderfully said, Matthew.

The wide receiver board, the top of it, I mean, these are super duperstars.

Jamar Chase

is a top of the list for many people right now.

Now, there's some guys like Justin Jefferson is like people a little worried about his hamstring, but he's back at practice now.

That's good, but he also has a quarterback that has no experience.

You have somebody like Malik Neighbors, who's missed a lot of time this summer.

You have somebody like Puka Nakua, who has a quarterback question.

Like, are these summertime concerns they could sometimes be something that saves you from making a big mistake, or it could be a situation where you live too much in the present and then you end up missing out on a guy who's a major star?

Are you staying away from any of these players due to what has been going on during the summer?

No, not really.

You know, it doesn't, the Malik Neighbors thing is slightly concerning, but I don't feel like we've gotten a ton of information there.

And I will say that Malik Neighbors is going to get, I think, assuming he's that the injury is not serious, I think he's a candidate for 200 targets this year.

I think there's a real scenario where a year from now we're talking about number one wide receiver in fantasy football, Malik Neighbors.

This is a guy who was the sixth best wide receiver in in fantasy last year with F and Tommy DeVito throwing him the ball, you know, and, you know, Drew Locke and whatever.

Like, like the, uh, whatever you think of Russell Wilson, I assure you, he's an upgrade over everything that Malik Neighbors had last year.

And if he ever isn't, Jackson Dart will be as well.

Like Jackson Dart isn't going to get in there unless Russell Wilson fails or the team's just out of it.

And so they'll get the ball to him.

I think Dayball is a creative, offensive coach.

And so

I actually really, really like Malik Neighbors this year.

Again, we don't know about the injury, but it doesn't feel serious.

Like I haven't, I mean, you guys tell me what you're hearing, but it doesn't seem like the New York beat riders are panicking yet.

Like I haven't heard panic yet.

I'm just sort of like, hey, it's lingering.

He's missed some time, but I have yet to hear like

week one is in jeopardy.

So that may change.

Puka is really interesting because, you know, you're not only, you're concerned about a couple of things here.

I actually don't have a ton of Puka this year.

I have a little bit, but not a ton.

Puka is amazing.

Like he's truly incredible.

But he has dealt with injuries every year of his NFL career.

He's missed games every year of his NFL career.

His quarterback is dealing with a lower back injury.

And I get it.

Garoppolo is fine.

He's a professional NFL quarterback.

There are much, you know, much worse backup quarterbacks than Jimmy Garoppolo.

But he's also dealing with Devontae Adams.

And this is one thing that I haven't really seen a lot of in the fantasy universe.

Like as you sort of, you're on X or Twitter or whatever.

you're you're seeing what other people are discussing.

Like, people are concerned about Stafford's back, they talk about Puka's injury history, but I haven't really seen anyone talk about the fact that Devontae Adams, who I off the top of my head, I feel like is a career 30% target earner.

Earner, sorry.

Um, like, I just feel like every single time, you know, targets are earned, and Devontae Adams is always 28, 29, 30%, 33% target share in his teams.

And like, he signed a big deal.

Like, Devontae Adams is not going

to Los Angeles to run win sprints.

Matthew Stafford is not going to like ignore him.

Now, the Sean McVay offense has been always very fantasy friendly, very pass-heavy.

It's supported to fantasy-relevant wide receivers.

We saw it with Cooper Cup and Puka Nakua at times.

So, and we've seen it with Cooper Cup and Robert Woods back in the day.

So, I do think both guys are going to eat.

But the idea that Puka, the Puka we saw down the stretch when Cooper Cup was just, who knows what happened to Cup down the stretch, where it was just all Puka,

I'm not convinced Puka gets the same insane volume that he did down the stretch.

So I do think there are some question marks given Puka's first round draft capital in fantasy drafts this year.

We've discussed this before when you visited the show, and it just sort of nerds me out that you were in Avengers with Robert Redford, who is one, and

Robert Downey Jr.

and the host of others, like kind of an incredible nugget in your career from my angle.

I would ask you,

who is your

true blue Iron Man in this draft?

Like, who do you see as the centerpiece that you build everything around?

Look at Sesi tying it together.

Wow.

Yeah.

Good segue.

Wow.

Who's the set?

I don't know that, you know, I don't really, I mean, I guess it's whoever your first-round pick is, right?

Like, I mean, that's, I will tell you that I'm going to answer the question, but I'm not going to answer the question correctly.

So, you know, every year I do a thing called my ride or die.

So my one player that I sort of plant a flag on.

I've had really good success with it over the years, Kareem Hunt's rookie year, Josh Jacobs' rookie year, the year Austin Eckler broke out with 18 touchdowns, the year Jalen Hurts broke out,

the year Amon Ross St.

Brown broke out.

I've also, you know, had Kyler Murray last year.

So,

which was not a hit.

That one sucked.

And I'm annoyed, I'll I'll be honest with you guys, and I've talked about this on my show on Fantasy Football Happy Hour, where last year I really wanted to go with Jaden Daniels,

but I'm

such a Washington homer, and everyone knows it.

And it's a rookie quarterback, and I chickened out.

Congratulations.

Because this wide guy thing has become such a big thing that

I chickened out.

And I said, let me go with a safe pick in Kyler Murray.

Everyone's going to think I'm a homer with Jaden Daniels.

Boy, I don't know.

Washington, my franchise.

We always screw stuff up.

Rookie quarterback.

I really believe in Jaden, but screw it.

I'm going to go with Kyler, the safe pick.

And of course, Jaden was the correct call.

I should have done that.

I weirdly think Kyler played pretty good NFL football last year, like for his career, if you look.

He just

didn't run.

But anyway, this year I announced Amarian Hampton as my ride or die, as my fantasy ride or die.

A little risky.

I announced it before the Rashawn Slater injury, to be clear.

I announced it at the Hall of Fame preseason game that NBC broadcast.

But

I just believe a couple of things.

First off, look, the obvious stuff.

We know Harbaugh and Greg Roman want to run.

We know they're one of the run-heaviest teams in the NFL.

They also run when they get in close.

Last year, top five in terms of running back carries inside the five-yard line.

So they run heavy and they run when they get in close.

You know, people are, the two negatives on Amarion Hampton are, well, what about Najee Harris?

What about Najee Harris?

Like, Arthur Smith, the most run-heavy coach in the NFL, did not want to bring Najee Harris back.

He's on a one-year prove-it deal.

If he can even see, I don't mean to make light of his injury, but like, we don't know.

Like,

we, we, we don't know the extent of Najee Harris' injury.

And so,

but one-year prove-it deal, whatever deal, versus first-round draft capital.

That Jim Harabaugh and Greg Roman and Joe Ortiz went, uh, we're using a first-round draft pick on a running back that is not Ashton Genty.

So, I think that plays into it.

The other argument is that he doesn't, that Greg Roman offenses don't throw to the running back.

And traditionally, they have not.

But traditionally, Greg Roman offenses have had Tyrod Taylor or Lamar Jackson as their quarterbacks, guys that tuck and run.

And,

you know, Justin Herbert, you think about Austin Eckler all those years, like where Eckler was catching a ton of balls.

Like Herbert, if he's got a good pass-catching running back, he has no problem dumping it off and getting that guy into space.

He just didn't want to do it it with J.K.

Dobbins or Gus Edwards last year, which I think fair.

If you look at the post-game press conference, the post-draft press conference from the Chargers coaches, from Roman, from Harbaugh, like they all praised Hampton's pass-catching ability, his pass protection, his ability to be on third down and to be a complete back.

So I do believe Hampton is going to be involved in the passing game.

I think he can get to 35 or 40 receptions.

I think he's going to get to double-ditch touchdowns.

And he's somebody that, at least when I announced it, was going barely inside the top 50 overall, going around like running back 30, running back 20 to 25 in that range.

And I have him as a borderline top 12 running back.

So Hampton is sort of my guy that I think is going to burst in the scene.

I was on the field at the Hall of Fame game

prior to the broadcast.

And I'm walking around with Devin McCordy, who's my good buddy.

And so, you know, and we're talking to a lot of the defensive defensive players because they all know Devin, right?

And so we're talking and he's, you know, Devin's introducing me around.

And I'm like, hey, so

what do you guys think of Hampton?

What do you think of the kid?

And they're all like, they all, to a man, they all like, give me a look like,

dude, you know, like just one of those like, like, he's a full-grown man.

They were like, well, like, we hate tackling him.

Like, he runs hard.

He's angry.

Like, you can tell, first round running back.

Like, those were some of the quotes that were coming back to me.

Like, he's legit.

He's the real deal.

I'm glad I don't have to play against him in the real season.

Like, he's

he runs hard.

So, you know, the Chargers defense, which is pretty good, I think, is bought in.

The Slater injury hurts, but I still think it's, you know, an above-average offensive line.

I think they'll run to the right side a lot more.

But,

yeah, I'm in OMR and Hampton.

That's my ride or die this year.

I like it.

All right.

And I get the Jaden, as a Jets fan, I get why you would have that trepidation and back off it.

But congratulations that you left QB Purgatory.

And I hope to join you, maybe even with Justin Fields, who's who turns into a good fantasy guy and a real guy.

I don't know, Matthew.

Mr.

Berry.

Everything I hear, I don't know if you've ever met him, if you guys have ever interviewed him, but everything I hear is that Aaron Glenn is just awesome.

That he's an awesome human being.

He's an awesome coach, that players love playing for him.

They love, you know, they relate to him.

They are inspired by him.

And that I think that, you know, Aaron Glenn has the organization behind him, that Woody Johnson, you know, hey, has heard the noise and just like, I got to give this guy an opportunity, you know, and Aaron Glenn, former jet, you know, comes back.

And so there's at least a leash there with Glenn that probably wasn't there with previous regimes.

And so I think Glenn can now say to Justin Fields for the first time in his career, don't look over your shoulder.

You don't have to listen to the media.

I got your back, you know, and let's let's figure this out.

Because the thing I've always heard about Fields from an NFL perspective is that the problem with Fields is the basic stuff.

Like he can make some magical plays.

He can make some incredible throws.

He, you know, obviously his off-schedule stuff is incredible, his feet, his athleticism, but just like a basic, you know, guy running a third and just an out on third and seven.

He just can't hit the guy.

Like just the basic stuff, for some reason, he doesn't always nail.

And so

can you get him to be able to do that?

And you feel like maybe probably he can.

So, anyway, don't give up hope, is what I'm saying, Dan.

Don't give up hope yet.

Optimism, Dan.

I'll never give up.

I'll never give up, even if maybe I should.

Matthew Berry, thank you so much for joining us, buddy.

And go find Matthew everywhere.

NBC Sports, his column.

I have a question, Dan.

Yes, I have a question for you, a request.

Yes, sir.

I'd like to make a plug, and I'd like to make a plug before I leave your fine program here.

Absolutely.

Let it rest.

I'd like to see the power.

I'd like to see the power of the Heed the Call podcast.

So as you know, you see here in the screen behind me, and I'm wearing a Fantasy Life hat.

So I own a company called FantasyLife.com.

And we have a ton of rankings and tools.

It's fantastic.

If you play best ball and underdog, by the way, we have the most ridiculous best ball tool in the industry.

Our best ball HQ is just the most insane tool ever.

But we have an incredible amount of tools in terms of ADP ADP that helps you compare.

We have this thing called Fantasy HQ that will help run all of your leagues for you.

It's this magic tool.

We spent all offseason building all these incredible tools.

We've won a bunch of awards for them.

Check them out.

I can't do it all justice in the time that we have.

But if you go to fantasylife.com and you use the promo code HEAD,

H-E-E-D, use the promo code HEAD, you get 20% off.

So I want to see the power of this podcast.

This is the only time I am ever using this promo code.

I'm not going to use it on social.

I'm not going going to use it anywhere else only on this show so i want to see the power

and i will come back i will come back i will report if you guys would like how me if you'll have me back i will come back whenever you guys want and i'll report on the power of the pod and why

we also we also talk about it we take a 35 cut of all profits on that but that's uh but yes let's let's experiment listen sesi you got to get your beak wet i get that no no we'll work that out don't you worry needs his taste yeah of course yeah fantasylife.com.

We'll get your beak wet.

Yeah, you got it.

Promo code heed.

Show him.

Show him the power.

Thank you, Matthew.

FantasyLife.com.

Appreciate you guys.

Thank you.

There he goes, Matthew Berry.

And yeah, let's see.

If you want to jump onto that site, go ahead, everybody, and show the power of Heed.

I did not expect, Mark, for us to lead the fantasy extravaganza with a bunch of Justin Fields, but listen, you know, you can only go where the conversation takes you.

And apparently, Justin Fields is at the top of the mind of one of the great experts in the field.

What else can I say?

That's how I'd break it down.

Are you talking about your mind or his mind?

At no point would I draft Justin Fields personally, but Matthew makes a good point.

And I thought it was the point being that you can be a fantasy producer even if you're actually not any good as a quarterback.

And I guess,

you know, there's some other quarterbacks that might fit that mold as well, including people that were holding out hope on Anthony Richardson, for instance, if he were to play.

But it looks like he might not play.

I guess while we're here, we'll just mention that Richardson's, I believe it was his agent, came out and said that, you know,

they kind of felt betrayed.

I'm paraphrasing here, but felt a little betrayed by the decision by Shane Steichen and misled and kind of trying to grease the skids to get out of there out of Indianapolis.

So we'll see if that leads to a trade.

But yeah, that was a nice conversation with Mr.

Berry.

And we're just getting going, Ceci.

Just getting going.

You know, one thing I'll say personally, that there was, we've done this for years, and there was one summertime episode where I was literally staged behind the glass and not allowed to be part of the actual show other than two or three sort of dumb chime-ins.

I hope that my,

I like this role better, but I do realize that like the most trenchant question I had for Matthew Berry was about acting with Robert Raymond.

Who's Iron Man?

Yes, those that may not be aware, Mark was once known as the

fantasy outsider, was it?

And you were in a series of escalatingly dangerous neighborhoods,

usually ending with you being killed in a war zone, as I recall.

And professionally.

Yeah.

All right.

Let's now move on with our next guest.

One of our favorites, former colleague at NFL Media, where he made his bones, got his start, and now he's thriving over at Yahoo.

It's the great Matt Harmon.

What's up, Matty?

What up, boys?

What a whimsical introduction music there.

I feel like pepped up now after that.

Yeah, I think like what we're going for in the 2025 edition

is we're in the woods with nymphs and

woodland creatures and a feeling that we're safe, but also there could be danger lurking around the corner at any moment.

It is the woods after all.

And to be clear, I mean, that was live recorded by our own production with the various musical instruments and people.

Just so

that's just specially for you, Matt.

So Matt, if you're wondering how we're doing, we're doing great, okay?

Clearly.

You've got a budget for a whole forest of nymphs nymphs and

various

woodland creatures and all that.

And I mean, yeah, being in the woods, that is pretty much fantasy football.

Like, yeah, it seems fun right now.

It seems fun right after you draft your team.

And then, guess what?

That's all going to go to hell really quickly.

So, yeah, definitely

somewhere looking to throw you into an oven

by week nine.

And by the way, we collected all those nymphs from Sessler's commune in Hollywood.

That was pretty easy.

I mean, it was true.

It's not untrue.

All right.

Let's get into it.

And I think this is a show of respect to you, Matt, because

we were very fortunate to see Matt when he got into the business at a very young age in NFL Media and quickly make a name for himself in the fantasy realm.

And you've really, really planted a flag on the wide receiver side of things with your reception perception site.

And everybody should check that out because you've really cracked the code in a lot of ways

on

how a wide out and any type of receiver goes about their game and seeing signs for how that game can evolve and grow or conversely decline.

It's awesome stuff.

But we also were thinking when we were setting up the extravaganza this year, we don't want to put harmon in a box.

I just listened to your great show on Yahoo and like you talk about all different positions.

So we wanted to kind of open up, open up as we're in the woods.

It's a wide open expanse that we're going to dig into today as we study rookies, rookies who can win your league from the top of the draft to the very bottom.

So, a little shout out to Matt to show your versatility.

You don't put Harmon in a box.

I mean, so many shows do.

Usually it's just, all right,

it's around the NFL draft time to dust off Harmon and see what he thinks about the wide receiver class or at somewhere midsummer.

Let's see what does he think about the year three guys or whatever.

And look, that's great.

I mean, that's my fastball.

Like, I could quite literally do that in my sleep.

I probably do talk about it in my sleep, you know, routes and coverages and all that.

A very entertaining home here for sure.

But no, yeah, I appreciate the opportunity to actually talk about some other football players.

Yeah, we like to play against the strengths of our guests.

That's kind of

one of our moves.

So we're going to go full IDP breakdown today.

Let's go.

Let's have it.

Yeah, wide open view.

Ceci, get us going.

How do we want to get into rookie talk around your draft this season?

Well, you know, it's rare that we get to talk to an expert of this nature.

And I

am actually in a guillotine league, right, where this draft goes on for like three weeks.

And

you've got eight hours to make a pick.

I'll keep this brief, but I woke up this morning at 7.30 a.m.

with a guy on the East Coast saying, you've got 12 more minutes to make a pick at number 10.

And I was like, I didn't even know how to even sign into this site.

And like, you know, so it's like,

I'm on the fly here, but at number 10, I picked Ashton Genty.

And I would ask you from a rookie standpoint, because it's like real, I think, rookie running backs, a little boomer-bust.

Like, did I do the right thing there?

Did I do the right thing?

Is he special?

Is he going to be immediately special?

Because Connor Orr was on our show earlier this week, and he was doing a little tape dog.

And he's like, I don't necessarily see it based on what I've seen so far.

Where do you come down, Maddie?

Well, I think with Ashton Genty, the number one thing that you're definitely going to be able to rely on is a significant portion of the pie in that Raiders' backfield.

I mean, he's going to be on the field for the vast majority of the snaps.

This is an offensive coordinator in Chip Kelly, who was top 11 in rush attempts team-wide every single year that he was in the NFL as a head coach/slash play caller for the Eagles and the San Francisco 49ers.

So we know what they want to do.

Pete Carroll's the head coach.

I will say the one thing that makes me a little bit nervous about the Raiders' offensive skill position players is just like, how good do we expect this Raiders team to be, like this Raiders' offense to be as a whole?

Because typically, like, if you just want to close your eyes and like do the easiest thing in fantasy football, just take good players on good teams.

I do think that Ashton Genty is going to be a good player.

I think Brock Bowers is a good player.

But how good is the Raiders' offense going to be?

You know, Geno Smith is kind of like a pet favorite among tape dogs, to use your term, Dan, tape dog NFL watchers.

I think that Jacoby Myers is really underrated.

And like I said, Bowers is great.

Genti's great, but the offensive line is probably average at best uh you know the idea that they're starting dante thornton the uh fourth round x receiver like that's really cool until then you think like oh my god we're starting a fourth round rookie at x receiver like is that is that actually is how good does that make us really so i'm doing a show actually as we're taping this right now it'll be live in 45 minutes so people can go back and re-watch on youtube uh it's gonna be with nate tice looking at like offenses that might disappoint us based on how much we are relying on their fantasy players versus how many points this team is projected projected to score.

The Raiders have the biggest gap in like how high their players are going versus I can't find a single source that projects this offense anything more than like 20th best in the NFL.

So I think either the Raiders really have to outkick us from a team-wide and offensive projection, or yeah, one of these guys, Gentier Bowers, is going to be a letdown in the first and second round.

Well, you've generated concern

on my front.

Thank you.

I mean, no problem.

He could be a sensation, right?

He absolutely could be.

That he has that type of ceiling.

But I was looking, when you look at, and we're looking off like fantasy football calculator, they do a kind of an aggregate of where guys are taken.

And he's going in the first round, the back end of the first round in a lot of drafts.

And here are the guys around him, you know, Malik Neighbors, Puka Nakua, Derrick Henry, Nico Collins, Amon Ross St.

Brown.

For me,

with guys of that level available with that pick, I get a little spooked counting on a rookie for the Raiders.

I guess to your point, Matt, like we just don't don't know if the script that the Raiders are suddenly going to be a better team and a more exciting watch with a better head coach and obviously a more competent quarterback and some, you know, a superstar tight end, like it's there, but God, that's not a value pick, right?

It's a rookie that has never played in the NFL.

So it's a risk Zessler, but it doesn't mean it won't pay off.

No risk it, no biscuit, baby.

You got to believe in magic, you know?

Yeah.

I'm going to just throw it out to you, Matt, this way.

What is

a rookie entering the league you feel really bullish about?

That, you know, and also it always matters in these drafts, like where these guys are coming off the board, but a player that you really like the value with the upside combined.

Yeah, I think both of the top...

Well, I mean, I really like both of the top two rookie wide receivers, Tetaro McMillan and Travis Hunter.

And they go in like a range of the draft where I love taking wide receivers.

Rounds five to eight is just, there's a great mix of these, these two rookies, guys going into their second year, you know, Roma Dunze.

Uh, there's just like Calvin Ridley, some still boring, steady veterans.

Um, Jalen Waddles, interesting in this range.

Like, I like attacking there, but honestly, the fact that we get two more round one, round one rookies outside of the top 90 picks and Yahoo ADP, uh, Emeka Igbuka and Matthew Golden, those guys have both been great picks, especially Igbuka now at this point.

Like, when he was first drafted, you kind of look at it and like, man, the Bucs wide receiver room is pretty deep on paper.

Like, what are they doing taking another first round wide receiver when they have so many needs on defense?

Here on August 19th, that room doesn't look so deep anymore, right, boys?

Jalen McMillan is on IR.

He might be out till their week nine bye.

Chris Godwin is probably not going to be ready to start the season.

And Mike Evans, great player.

I didn't see any signs of decline when charting him for reception perception, but he's a 32-year-old.

you know, big wide receiver that misses time basically every single year.

So Igbuka, two reasons I really liked him, and specifically for this team in Tampa Bay.

Number one, second best success rate versus zone coverage among the prospects I charted this year, after only Travis Hunter, who obviously is fantastic.

He actually would have led all the prospects last year in success rate versus zone coverage as well.

And that was an all-star wide receiver class.

So, really good in that role.

I think he immediately slides into being like an off-ball and slot-heavy player for the Bucs.

But, specifically, like the routes that Baker Mayfield likes to throw, these out routes from condensed formations, those were all of Igbuka's like best routes from a success rate standpoint in RP.

So I think he's just ready to make like an immediate impact.

At this point, he is going to go higher than he was in best ball drafts and like the freaks who draft well before August.

You're not going to get that same level of value, but I still think outside the top 30 receivers, he can return value even as he continues to rise.

I love that one.

That guy's on my list for sure.

This is, again, why I don't like doing this episode because there are people in my fantasy draft that are listening right now.

But Ikbuka, like you look where he's going, the company he's sharing on draft boards,

guys ahead of him.

I like Rashid Shaheed for New Orleans, even though that's a bad script around him, but very talented player in like a Joker role there.

Keon Coleman, Keenan Allen.

And then on the other side of Ikbuka, you have Adam Thielen, Cedric Tillman, Marquise Brown.

Give me the kid with upside.

And I think the one thing where no one's going to doubt Mike Evans at this point and camp reports about him is that he looks great and your data points back that up as well in terms of his production last year.

But the one thing

you could, with some reasonable confidence, bet on one or both of those veteran receivers missing time.

And this kid might have that, I don't like saying this kid, this player might have that ability to, once he gets into the lineup and make some plays, that they're going to not, they're not going to take him out, right?

And then he just becomes a part of a high-volume passing attack with Baker slinging around the yard.

That's a perfect one.

I love that one, Matt.

Yeah,

it's betting on, again, a good, I think, a good player.

Obviously, he's a rookie, but he was a fantastic player that looked like he was just immediately ready to drop into a role that is vacated on this offense.

Is again, that power slot receiver as Chris Godwin kind of works his way back.

Pro-ready skill set.

And unlike last year, where like Roma Junze, a prospector that I really loved, he goes to a team that was like a wide receiver core that was crowded with DJ Moore and Keenan Allen.

It's the damn Chicago Bears, right?

Like this is the Bucks.

They were a top three to five offense in every metric last year.

They might regress a little bit without Cohen, but I still think it's a pretty good environment to bet on.

The Colts have named Daniel Jones their starter,

ending that non-drama.

Hilarious.

When you look at an offense like that where there's going to be quarterback chaos, but just to go back to another rookie that, you know, when you're trying to pick tight ends,

Tyler Warren, for instance, seems like he's going to have a big role there and be a fascinating type player in general.

But do you just not trust like a rookie tight end?

Or do you take a chance on someone like that?

Like at a, and what round in an offense where there are questions about the quarterback?

Yeah, I do think that Tyler Warren fits into this group of tight ends that are going outside like true tight end one range.

He might be kind of like a back end tight end one, you know, closer to maybe that 10 to 12 range.

So you can honestly take him and kind of like a safe, boring Jake Ferguson, you know, where you're going to get on base with a guy like that.

But Warren might have a little higher ceiling and you can kind of double tap the tight end position in that way.

Because realistically, the way I've built like my teams this year with the tight end position, I don't end up going for those top three tight ends very often just because I think you got to pick one.

You either have to pick, to quote my buddy Scott Pionowski, Yahoo, you either got to go vanity tight end or vanity quarterback.

And I've typically sided with those early quarterbacks.

And I just have no interest in this tier two of tight ends that goes all the way from like Sam Laporta to Evan Ingram.

So I've ended up with a lot of Tucker Kraft as my tight end one.

But if I miss on Kraft, then I do end up with that like Jake Ferguson, Tyler Warren, or even Colson Loveland with the Bears, kind of that sort of combination at the tight end position.

The tough part with Warren, and this is why, even if it made sense from a football standpoint, and like, you know, I'm trying to, you try to separate fantasy from reality and you try to separate like your own personal interests from being like a smart football guy.

I understand why Shane Steichen wants one tight end to just run out there every single snap that they don't have to have this like weird moving parts room that they had the last few years.

But like there's so many players on the Colts that are good.

Josh Downs is good.

Michael Pittman, I mean, Josh Downs like could be one of the best receivers in the league.

He's that talented.

Got to stay on the field, of course.

But like Michael Pittman's a steady veteran.

Alec Pierce is a dangerous deep bet.

Adnai Mitchell's got some ability to him if he can just like level off from a consistency standpoint.

They already got enough dudes they they can't get the football to.

We got one more here now in the mix, and I'm worried from those receiver perspectives, like the receivers there that I just listed off, that Warren might end up being that kind of like scammy, underneath Daniel Jones guy that he just checks it down to a lot.

So I do think we can get a like I said, a little bit of a scammy, cheapy fantasy season out of Tyler Warren.

But I just think the upside on this entire team project is just very depressed.

This team I'm building is just an absolute knockout punch so far.

That's what I'm saying.

Well, you took him.

no, I didn't take him yet.

Okay, now I will.

Yeah, I mean, the Colts thing, not to get sidetracked here, but like so many things strike me as strike me after that announcement that, one, they must really beat out on Anthony Richardson to kind of turn things over to Jones.

And then total head coach move.

It's a cliche move.

I don't know why they do these things that Steichen was so strong.

Not only is Daniel Jones our starter, we anticipate him to be the starter for the whole season.

That's great.

And I'm glad.

I guess that's instilling some level of confidence in trying to control the uncontrollable in the NFL by pretending like you understand how the next three or four months are going to play out.

But it's more likely that Daniel Jones either sucks butt or gets hurt or both.

And then Anthony Richardson, who can't hit the broadside of a barn, is thrown to your, you know,

you know, flyboy tight end.

And that's not going to go well.

So I am staying away personally from any Colts pass catcher.

I want to hit you up with one more, Matt.

I want to throw out, and then we want to maybe give you a final word for someone we haven't brought up.

But I want to mention the

two running backs that are getting a lot of pop right now.

One is RJ Harvey with the Broncos.

I think we're a little sneaky, annoyed about the Broncos, only because a few weeks back we felt like we were ahead of

the curve collectively as the team of HTC.

And now everyone loves the Broncos to the point where they're being really hyped up as a Super Bowl Bowl contender.

But I don't think we should hold that against them.

I'm just going to say that's sidebar.

But I do believe in this offense, and I really like the idea of Bo Nick's year two and Peyton and this thing maybe really starting to sing.

So there's a lot of juice there.

And then, of course, Trayvion Henderson in New England, you know,

a lot of great camp reports.

He runs the kickoff back.

He's in a setup with Ramondre Stevenson, who can't hold on to the football and probably is on his way out there in some ways.

You love both these guys?

You hate both these guys?

Where do you come down?

Yeah, really good picks in the fifth round, like if they make it there to me, especially if you've taken two running backs early and they can kind of be your flex player that you're maybe hoping you could kind of like insulate them with a more boring veteran wide receiver pick to start the season.

Because again, rounds five through seven, rounds five through eight, really, there's a lot of interesting wide receivers that you can throw in that flex spot because you might have to exercise some patience with these rookies.

But I think by the back half of of the year, you know, RJ Harvey might really take off at that point.

Yes, J.K.

Dobbins is going to get some work, especially early on.

But at this point, like if you're a fantasy player and you can't handle a veteran running back playing, you know, like a second guy in the backfield, this hobby is not for you, bro.

This hobby is not for you.

Like you don't have, you don't have the ability or the fortitude to play the game.

Like it just, it is what it is.

Like, I mean, people, Jameer Gibbs, like Jay Montgomery is going to take work from work from Jameer Gibbs.

It just is what it is.

You got to be able to deal with that.

So for RJ Harvey, like you might get some veteran deference handed to J.K.

Dobbins early in the year, but Bo Nick's last year was fourth in the NFL in yards on screens, according to Pro Football Focus.

RJ Harvey is going to get a lot of those screen plays out of the backfield as well.

I think it's a big reason why they drafted him.

And this was a Broncos offense last year that was just so set up for a running back to thrive.

They were 10th in yards before contact allowed to their on pure running back runs, not Bo nicks, just pure running back runs.

Then they were 28th in yards after contact.

Like, we need to get that a little higher up, that second number.

And Harvey is the guy who can break a lot of tackles.

So, definitely a guy I want to take in that range.

Travan Henderson is maybe a little more complicated just because I do think Ramondre Stevenson is like a good innings eater in the backfield.

But typically, we want explosive pass-catching running backs in fantasy football.

That is certainly what Travian Henderson is going to be.

And I think he's a nice fit as an outside runner on some of these like gap runs that Josh McDaniels will absolutely be installing into this offense.

So again, another guy that maybe Stevenson opens up in September as the lead ball carrier, but the guy that's going to get the important touches, catches out of the backfield, big plays, that is definitely going to be Henderson in that offense.

All right.

And as we say goodbye, Matt, throw out one guy, a dude.

That's kind of like you're...

Sticking the flag in the ground.

People aren't talking about him as much, but he is going to make a difference and maybe win a league.

league.

People have finally started talking about him, but it's Ricky Pearsall out of the San Francisco 49ers.

I think we actually talked about this guy on your old show when we talked about those prospects.

I think he was an awesome prospect.

He was, you know, people were like, oh, this guy's going the first round.

Hell yeah.

A guy with the 87th percentile success rate versus man coverage is going to go in the first round, especially a versatile skill set like that.

Like, he got shot in the freaking chest last season.

Literally.

Literally, Literally shot in the chest.

So misses the first, what, six weeks of the season.

But even before like the play caught up, because he obviously gets back on the field and he was rusty.

He was kind of swimming a little bit.

You could see that he was ticketed for a really unique and singular role in that 49ers offense, an offense that's like in mid-transition right now.

They're running more like true drop back stuff.

They're not doing the typical Shanahan, gadgety, sort of.

gimme completions and stuff.

They're asking Brock Perry to play big boy quarterback.

And Pearsall is a guy that's moving around the formation.

He's running a lot of like option, whip, returns, vertical routes from the slot.

They didn't really, he's not there to replace Debo Samuel.

He's there to be Ricky Pearsall, like his own role player in this offense.

And again, it took a minute for him to get back into football shape.

So some of the metrics aren't all the way there.

But in the back half of the year, I can remember that watching and charting this game, the week, it was like week 15 against the 40ers, or 49ers against the Rams, like in that kind of monsoon-ish game.

And you could see him just smoking man coverage in that game.

And then the next week, then week 17, they go and play the Lions, the most man coverage, heavy defense in the NFL.

And he's the featured player in the offense.

So, like, I think he is going to be the guy that really takes the step forward this year with Brandon Ayuk likely not participating in the full season.

You created a problem for Dan because, as he mentioned, his friends within his own fantasy football league listened to this.

And now his childhood friend Matthew from Sciossit, New York, is going to grab Ricky right before Dan does.

So,

Ricky Pierce, who was also my making the leap candidate a couple of months back on this very program.

So, yes, I kind of need him to be on the board.

And I'm not afraid, Matt, to go up and get him if I have to.

If I have to jump ahead of his ADP, I'll do it.

That's how much I believe.

I've been pushing him up like ahead of his ADP

throughout the whole process because I want to be ahead of consensus on Ricky Piercell.

I was leading into the draft.

I want to be ahead of it this year.

It's getting a little harder, though, because he's definitely getting a lot of steam, man.

When I saw him catch that deep in like deep dig route against the Raiders, and

Purdy lets that thing go before he's even made the break, I'm like, oh, that's it.

He's got Purdy's trust completely.

Purdy's all the way in.

I'm all the way in.

Yeah, Ricky Pearsall to the moon this year.

All right.

Thank you very much, Mr.

Harmon.

Yes, follow him on Yahoo, Reception Perception,

on Twitter at Matt Harmon underscore BYB.

Thank you very much, buddy.

Great to see you.

Thanks, Matt.

Appreciate you, boys.

Always good to see you guys, too.

Did you know that getting Heed the Call three times a week is just the beginning?

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Ah, yes, we return

to the woods.

Nymphs everywhere.

Mark picked them up at a commune

in the valley.

How did we settle on this

audio track for this show?

Just, i'm kind of i'm questioning that just felt right up next

he's a fixture on this particular special senior content creator host of the roto world football showing roto pat let's go

let's i am honestly being fired up by the forest elf music um it's quite delightful and for some reason seems weirdly fitting for you guys i feel like i was just gonna say i was gonna send that compliment right right back your way because I don't know why, and this isn't like a sexual thing, but I could picture you shirtless in the woods with like a bow and arrow that you created, and you're doing quite well for yourself.

Actually, that's very, yeah.

Hey, listen, if anyone, if you can picture that, that means I'm doing something right.

Yeah, like that means I have some sort of practical skills if you think I can even be in the woods, let alone survive in the woods.

As I've said on the show every year, like Pat's my go-to guy.

Um, because, like we try to do with this show,

if you want write-ups during the season and just to kind of know what to do coming through the week, you're going to get good analysis with just a touch of mirth.

That's the Roto Pat Pat Dari experience.

And sometimes a touch of

a little irate sometimes at the situation that he's having to report on.

Like in those old Roto World blurbs, just like, he's going to zing you and

it's going to hurt.

Absolutely.

I try to throw the very

rare needle of mirth and indignation

at any given moment where there's a little whimsy, there's a little mirth, but then constant anger and indignation too.

All right, Mark, get us going here with Roto Pat.

I guess from a general angle, because I'm back into fantasy, but for many years I wasn't.

And there were things out there like, you know, oh, you don't draft a quarterback early or a zero running back theory.

And I'd like to go dig into those things.

Is there what I'd call like a hot boy, like H-O-T-B-O-I

trend or theory that's kind of floating out there right now that people need to understand when they're getting into these drafts?

Or, like, just to add to that, a trend that you hate that you could drop some indignation upon.

Yeah, that's another way to go.

Well, if you want to know how what a sign that fantasy football is finally like a fully established American institution is that it has come full circle.

Because as you pointed out, it used to be the hipster fantasy approach was not just like drafting your running or your quarterback as late as possible, but something.

I might even draft one.

I don't know.

I'll add one on waivers in week one.

I haven't even looked at the matchups yet.

Let's check out the matchups Tuesday, Wednesday, week one.

Maybe I'll do it with waivers.

But now, even the fantasy football hipsters, because of the dual threat quarterbacks, there's a breakaway tier at the top with Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson, Jalen Hurts.

Now maybe Jaden Daniels in that tier as well.

Or there's just, it used to be such a pileup that there there just really wasn't that much difference between the third quarterback and the 13th quarterback.

But there is this breakaway tier at the top now, and you will find fantasy football hipsters who play for real money who are now drafting quarterbacks early.

That is a big change, really like the past 20 years of fantasy football history.

And home leagues, people always get quarterback thirsty or much earlier than the so-called experts like myself.

But experts,

they've had to admit defeat.

And occasionally the most important position in all sports should be drafted early in fantasy drafts, apparently.

That's so funny because we were just talking about that with Matt Berry at the top of the show that I want the quarterback to be better represented in this sport.

It just would make more sense.

And I don't know.

Like,

I have the first overall pick in my draft for the first time since I took Ricky Williams in 2003.

That went great.

And I'm taking Josh Allen.

I'm taking Josh Allen.

And everybody else could, you know, stick it because I love him.

You shouldn't do that if it's a single quarterback.

It's a two-quarterback league.

There you go.

Two-quarterback league.

It's like, all right, I'll go quarterback first round, second round, obviously, third round, maybe fourth round too.

It's like start hoarding them.

And I've always agreed with what you said, Dan.

Why is the most important position in all of sports?

Also, like, the most none of them are easy to predict, but quarterback's easier to predict than some of the other positions.

Like, why is this position so unimportant in the fake version of our football football game?

Like, we have to make it more important.

Somehow, Super Flex has been a great development.

True, two quarterback leagues can get a little thin, especially beyond 12 teams where it's almost not practical.

But Super Flex has been a really good development to make quarterbacks more important because they have needed to be more important for so long.

It's like, oh, you know, great pick of R.J.

Harvey.

I'm going to take Lamar Jackson.

Okay.

Bye.

No, yeah.

And we need more people.

You guys are perfect to be the vanguard of this.

Like, maybe quarterbacks should actually be important in fantasy football.

I love it.

And I do, now let's get some of that classic Rotopath cynicism

out there because let's talk about guys we hate.

Like

who do like who are you staying away from?

You know, with

at all costs, who are some guys that you are not sniffing that other people might see as a high-value player, but that is not how Rotopath sees it.

Well, let's just be real.

First off, there are no good players.

Like, everyone knows that.

It's like, it's varying degrees of how bad players are.

I get accused of being overly negative on the show all the time.

Like, does Pat think any player is good?

And, like, fair point.

I probably focused a little too much on the players they do not think are good.

But I'm in enough drafts this summer where I am avoiding like the blanket, I am never drafting so-and-so principle because a true fantasy axiom, like everyone's a value at some point.

I've yet to see a point where James Cook is a value.

I'll say that.

In fantasy, it boils down to like, he's the most obvious touchdown regression candidate of all time, where he had nine total touchdowns the first two years of his career.

Then he gets 18 last year.

Obviously, probably a bit of an outlier campaign.

You could easily argue, though, that the first two seasons were more of an outlier than 18.

He's not going to score 18 again, blah, blah, blah.

But he could still score 12 or 13.

But my thing with James Cook is that he played, this is one of the most insane stats I keep finding all summer, is he played 47.7% of the bills snaps last year.

I don't understand it.

I think he should be playing like 60 to 65% of the bills snaps.

But James Cook's problem is, so he has a threat on early downs to his touches and Ray Davis.

He has a threat on third down and Ty Johnson.

He has a threat at the goal line and Josh Allen, who calls his own number more than almost any other quarterback in the red zone, save for probably Jalen Hurts.

And it's just like you can have a threat on one or two of those fronts.

Having a threat on all three just makes it very, very difficult.

And fantasy managers have tried, they're very savvy now.

They're not drafting James Cook as an RB1 even, but he's still going as a very high-end RB2, like RB14, 15.

And I just don't think he can do that with, because

there's too many other threats to him in this Bills backfield.

That's the second time he's come up on this show.

Who's another guy?

Listen, you'll take him, but

you don't really want to.

Buy or beware.

I've I've taken this guy a few times, and then I've kind of gotten out of the habit here late in the summer.

Listen, Tyreek Hill had some alibis last year.

Injured wrist, Tua Tungabaloa, missed what, like at least six games.

But I said the 47.7% James Cook snap percentage thing was one of the most mind-blowing stats.

This might be one of the most mind-blowing stats I've ever seen.

Where Tyreek Hill, who appeared in all 17 games last season, had 840 fewer receiving yards than the year prior.

Like, that has to be, for a non-injured player, maybe the biggest drop-off in the history of football.

And

again, the alibis were real.

The excuses were real.

But he's 31.

He's 32.

I know he's winning like a random foot race like every day.

Like, he's out there.

He's like, I beat a pony in a race.

Yeah,

if you look, if you're watching that closely, though, like, the opponent keeps on getting a little bit less.

Like, it was like a 12-year-old girl over the summer.

He's like, listen, I beat the Danish four by one team in a foot race.

Like, all right, that's fine.

They're like, they're the ninth fastest country in Europe.

I think you also get like, you get a little worried that the variable here is he could be traded if things go totally south in Miami and to where.

That could be good too.

But that's just another question mark sitting out there.

Yeah, huge variable.

And even if he's not traded, like Tua is already getting rid of the ball faster than anyone in the NFL.

And Tua this summer is like, what if I get rid of it even faster, you guys?

Like, wouldn't that be awesome?

Wouldn't that be amazing?

And, like, Tyreek Hill, this is another stat.

He had 29 receptions of 20-plus yards in 2023.

That led the league.

Fell all the way to 13 last year.

Like, can that deep connection really get revved back up?

And if it doesn't, like, how does Tyreek Hill ever live up to his past lofty status and this year's ADP?

Yeah, like when he defeated a 74-year-old German man pushing a wheelbarrow, I was like, I'm not even impressed.

How am I supposed to be impressed by that?

Not impressive.

No.

Listen, that guy, though, he was a silver medalist in Toronto in 1970.

So it was Montreal, actually.

Montreal, not Toronto.

Yeah.

I like that fact-checking in real time, though.

Who else do you hate?

Or, you know, dislike?

Well, listen, I love this guy because we need more crazy people in the NFL.

We need more crazy athletes in modern sports.

They're all getting so anodyne.

They're coming off the assembly line.

Like, I've been playing select sports since I was two years old.

Like, I'm a football machine.

Baker Mayfield cuts against that.

But Baker Mayfield, I feel like ran a bit unsustainably hot last year.

I think he had a career 4.6 touchdown percentage coming into last year.

It was over seven last year.

He more than doubled his previous career high in rushing.

He was living very dangerously.

He's taking so many big hits, you know, as he's always done.

He like almost seeks out contact.

Unsustainably high touchdown rate.

He led the league in touchdowns.

He also led the league in interceptions.

That's more in line with his career norm than leading the league in touchdowns.

Isn't like Jameis Winston a few years back where he's like 30-30.

He went 41 and 16.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

With 4,500 yards and a 72% completion percentage.

What an outrageous performance that was.

Kuda.

Truly outrageous.

Tristan Wurz is injured now, too, though.

And this trend has kind of dialed off.

There was a while this summer where people drafting Baker Mayfield over Patrick Mahomes.

And I just wanted to be like, to me, that was the ultimate imagine prompt.

Like, imagine drafting Baker Mayfield over Patrick Mahomes.

Like, just don't do it.

You cannot do that.

I don't care.

Like, whatever the mathematical, analytical reasons say, go with the gut.

Take Patrick Mahomes over.

Well, I don't, I don't back that, but just in a vacuum, when you look at the production,

we had this conversation with Barry earlier, which is like sometimes fantasy production and who the actual quarterback is, those are two different conversations.

And I mean, it's been a while since Mahomes, or it feels that way because we study it so much.

And so many of us have been burned by a Patrick Mahomes season in the last couple of years now.

That, yeah, it would be nice to see Pat Mahomes do that again and be the 40-touchdown guy.

I just don't, who knows if it's going to happen.

Meanwhile, Mayfield, you just kind of get the idea he's going to keep slinging it no matter who the OC is with that offense.

By the way, I think it's the

Liam Cohen.

I'm sure he's a good play caller.

Dave Canalis, I'm sure he's a good play caller.

Baker Mayfield is like getting no credit for like, every year, Baker Mayfield's offensive coordinator, so he becomes the head coach all of a sudden.

Yeah.

He does deserve more credit for that.

Mahomes, by the way, if we're in like the stages of fantasy Mahomes' grief, we've been stuck on denial for about two years.

Like this is not

like he is coming back.

He's going to be dropping bombs any day now.

I'm praying Patrick Mahomes gets back to normal to share in fantasy.

We all are.

Do you,

you know,

when you're drafting, because obviously

environment for Baker Mayfield mattered a lot.

He's got a lot of weapons around him.

He is in a stable organization, not the Cleveland Browns.

And

that's all positive.

Like, are there teams just based on the structure of the organization, the team, that you hate, that you stay away from?

I'm not touching a player stuck to this franchise this year.

Well, the Browns are always, of course, the stock answer for that.

Like, while you're talking, my brain's thinking, like, what's my answer going to be?

And my brain's going to just say the Browns just says.

Browns, bouncy, bounce.

Obviously, it's the Browns.

The the Saints, uh, really up there this year.

I mean, say what you will about Kellen Moore.

Like, who knows if he's overrated?

He could very easily be underrated.

I know he's at least league average as a play caller, extremely difficult to do anything with Tyler Shuck or Desmond Ritter.

Or it's not Desmond Ritter, Spencer Rattler.

I knew it was an R.

What's the general the same?

The team that comes to mind were a void for the environment this year is just the Pittsburgh Steelers.

All right.

I was about to say that.

Mike Tomlin.

I genuinely believe Mike Tomlin is an elite coach.

I also genuinely believe Dan was mentioning my St.

Louis Cardinals before we came on the air.

The Pittsburgh Steelers have kind of become the St.

Louis Cardinals of football, where they refused to do the rebuild.

They refused to start over.

Admirable.

Like, we should have more teams trying to actually be good every year.

But this is the most overdue rebuild in the recent history of football.

Like, it needed to be blown up and started anew.

They're not doing that.

Instead,

this is like the most ultimate hitting on 17 I've ever seen, bringing in Aaron Rodgers.

I just don't see how the Rodgers-Arthur Smith pairing has any chance of working.

There's basically not a number two receiver.

Like the backfield is still unsettled.

It just seems like a fantasy catastrophe waiting to happen with the Pittsburgh Steelers.

And I am tie-breaking.

I'm not saying I'm not drafting Pittsburgh Steelers uniformly, but if I'm tie-breaking, I'm always tie-breaking against taking Pittsburgh Steelers.

Yeah,

I've gotten some pushback from our audience that I've been down on Rodgers as a Steeler, but I defended his play play as a jet.

And that's in some ways true, but in this,

in some ways it is, because I did say often on the show last year that he wasn't bad.

In fact, at times he was good, but there were also times he was bad, usually against good teams, which is a big red flag, by the way.

But in the realm of fantasy, Rodgers is no longer...

a dude, right?

Because he doesn't scramble, so you're getting nothing from that side of his game.

And in general, I just, I don't think you're going to get a season out of him, especially with the Steelers where he's going to put up any numbers.

What does that mean for like DK Metcalf?

Is that another guy that you would stay away from, Pat?

For sure.

And yet to be a dude, he would need the most loaded supporting cast of his entire career.

He probably has the worst supporting cast of his entire career.

It's worse than he had last year.

And like DK Metcalf, you know, Aaron Rodgers is famous for like kind of like Tom Brady, like insisting on like the receiver quarterback mind meld.

That's never been DK Metcalf's thing.

Geno Smith is like a more mild-mannered guy than Aaron Rodgers.

I feel like I saw Geno Smith chew out DK Metcalf every other game.

Like, where were you going?

What were you doing there?

Like, how is this going to work with Aaron Rodgers?

Who Mike Williams ran one incorrect route for the Jets and Aaron Rodgers?

Like, we got to cut him.

Right.

Like, we got to cut this guy.

Like, how is it?

Darrett Wilson almost walked into the Atlantic Ocean by week 16.

Like, it was.

I just...

don't see how this is supposed to work.

Aaron Rodgers, too, now he's trying to get rid of the ball really quick.

He doesn't want to get hit.

DK Metcalf does his damage down the field.

Like, how is this connection supposed to develop?

But DK Metcalf is a major stayaway for me this year.

I have a quick one.

Um,

a team like the Bears, where two offseasons in a row, there's been a lot of change, a lot of bluster about how they're going to arrive.

And there's this this time around with Ben Johnson there, it feels like a little bit more of an arrow up.

But are you hesitant to look at players inside that offense when we haven't really seen it prove positive yet?

Absolutely.

And just like

unproven quarterback, unproven head coach.

I guess he's a proven play caller, Ben Johnson, but like such, this might be the most crowded skill core in the entire league.

And it's a weird mixture of holdover guys, like good holdover guys, like Roma Dunze and DJ Moore, but those weren't drafted when Ben Johnson was there.

Ben Johnson, he strikes me like he has a little bit of Josh McDaniels where he wants to prove how much of a genius he is all the time.

And maybe that could be good actually it could also be bad I could just see him really being into the guys that were drafted after he got there Luther Burden uh Colston Loveland and just Caleb Williams kind of a disastrous rookie year he proved he was super tough I think that's the only thing he proved though.

And the Bears is not even so much like the changes and like the unproven nature.

It's those things combined with like this.

It wasn't even a good offense last year.

And still there's five guys we have to sort through in fantasy.

So I'm not drafting Bears.

I will say that.

But they're another offense, just for like the uncertainty, I'm kind of tie-breaking.

It's like, instead of guessing whether or not Roma Dunze is going to break out, I'm just going to take someone else.

Patrick Daugherty, you've done it again, and you've said it all.

I feel like going toe-to-toe with the heroes is not easy.

All right.

This is like the cream of the podcasting crop.

I would like to think I held my own, but I feel like I just went 12 rounds.

You did.

It felt like

when we're with you, especially in the fantasy realm, it feels like going toe-to-toe with Yohel Pozo in an all-you-can-eat buffet.

You just feel like chances are against you.

Little St.

Louis Cardinals inside baseball bit there to close out the seg.

Pozo, the newest baseball folk hero and this proud baseball town.

Dan, we'll be back.

I know you said we're bad now.

And I know you may be, quote, definitely right that we're bad now,

but we will be back.

Attendance down too.

Come on.

come on, Cardinals fans.

We're having, I'm not even kidding, like a region-wide identity crisis.

Like, no one knows how to reckon with this.

No one knows how to do it.

Good luck.

Our whole identity is tied up in baseball and toasted raviolis.

We need something else.

Toasted raviolis.

All right.

Patrick Daugherty.

Thank you very much, my friend.

My pleasure, guys.

All right.

Time now for our final guest.

Oh, one of our great old friends over from the NFL media days.

And now she is thriving in the fantasy space as well.

Lindsay Rhodes.

Am I British?

I like that tape in the sign.

I'm Gary Barnage.

Oh, I'm gonna get a spot of tea for this.

By the way, this is our British audience right now are clapping their hands excitedly.

Enjoying it.

We love when the Americans do our accent.

It's like funny.

Is he from

the United Kingdom or is he just somewhere not in America?

Is that why I'm thinking?

Who's that?

Gary Barnett?

Like Flame.

No, Flame.

Oh, Mr.

Flame himself.

No, he's from the state.

He's from The Hague, the Netherlands, but now he's stateside.

He's from Denver, I believe, originally, but had a teaching job in The Hague, the Netherlands.

Mr.

F, yeah.

The great Mr.

F.

Hi.

Lindsay, how are you?

Now, as I understand it, you are right now

in Vegas at Circa at some type of fantasy football event with a lot of fantasy people there, probably a lot of

a lot of middle-aged men, I think, are there you're dealing with.

What's the odor there?

Like,

what are we talking with?

What are we dealing with here?

There's a strong sense of smoke to start off with, because it's Vegas.

Yet, not all of the middle-aged men, Dan.

Yes.

Dan.

I know.

Okay, I'm at a women of fantasy football event.

So there's lots of ladies who know exactly what they're talking about.

This is going to cost me my feminist of the week cover.

Oh, yes, it did.

That was quite an assumption.

Jordan Rodrigue is going to be on my ass when she hears this.

What is the ratio?

What is the actual factual ratio of male to female there?

To be honest,

I just attended my first event of the day, and I don't know that I can adequately say that.

So I could check back later in the week once we're kind of like in draft mode.

I'll be doing a draft tomorrow and kind of intermingling.

So the stuff that I've been doing has been for the women of fantasy football.

So that's a pretty heavy.

Sure, you can get back to us on that one.

Yeah, Mark, we did derail the show with an unanswerable question.

There's too many.

All right, Lindsay, this is

we thought of you because

we know that you are thriving in this space and you can help people because you're a great communicator.

And we were thinking there are a lot of people listening to this fantasy spectacular that are going extravaganza, excuse me, branding's important,

that

have been for months putting off studying and researching ahead of their draft.

And then all of a sudden, their draft is either this week or next weekend.

And a lot of people say, well, those people are screwed.

And those people are essentially making league donations.

But Lindsey Really.

Let's celebrate those people being screwed, by the way, because I want to be rewarded for paying attention.

Yes, very good.

But whatever.

So here's the conundrum.

We collectively celebrate these people making their donations.

But also at the same time, Lindsay Rhodes, can you help these people

from themselves?

So if you have not studied, how can you save yourself if you have a draft coming up very soon?

Okay, my number one cheat is to

a lot of people, I think, who find themselves in this situation will open up the draft room and then just go by the rankings.

that show up in the draft room.

Like these are the players in the order that they're being given to you.

And you're like, I don't know, between these five people that I'm looking at, which one do I want most?

So number one cheat sheet that I would have, if you have not been paying attention, is to open up an ADP draft board on a second screen, cheat off of that.

And then you can, at the very least, if you know nothing, then you can kind of cross-check.

Like, okay, and a lot of ADP sites have it in draft board form now where it's not a list.

You can actually see the colors and the squares and it looks like a draft board in order.

Sess kind of look is looking at me like, I can't tell if you're just like deep in thought listening or if you're like, what the fk are you talking about?

Well, I think

I generally would assume that the person is overwhelmed to begin with.

So is this not helping in that department?

Mark wants to know what ADP is.

No, I don't want to know what ADP is, but it's like to have two screens open, it kind of scrambles my brain.

But I see what you mean.

But this person typically is also, if you've come into this, into a draft and you don't know head from tail,

You probably haven't done a lot of fantasy before.

And you're watching these positions and people picking people left and like, what's the mistake you don't want to make in terms of how you construct your roster?

Yeah.

Okay.

So number one,

number one telltale sign that you are kind of like a rookie at this, that will tip off everyone in your league to take advantage of you is if you draft a kicker or a defense before you fill out your bench spots.

Come on now.

Like that is the number one thing.

A lot of people look at, they go, well, I got to start a quarterback and two running backs and three running and a kicker and a defense.

And then, so they draft in that order, not necessarily like in the order positionally, but they'll get their kicker and their defense before they start filling out their bench.

You're blowing it.

You're blowing it hard because there's, I mean, we could get into some deep in the weeds reasons about why defense is volatile and you're not maximizing.

And technically, and again, talking over the head of the people that are my target audience right now, but you should be streaming your defenses because fantasy points and defense is about facing the worst offense that you could face that week.

Not being the best defense.

Because you could be the best defense if you're playing the Bills.

Are you trying to start them?

Like you're not going to score any fantasy points because you're playing a good offense.

They're going to score points.

So defense last, I will never draft my defense anywhere other than last, than the last round.

And my cheat code for this is draft, look at week one, pull up the week one schedule, go which offenses are the worst, which offenses am I the least confident in?

Maybe it's the Colts.

Maybe it's the Browns.

Maybe it's another one.

Those are just some suggestions.

Find a defense that is still available that is facing the worst offense in week one.

Plug that one in.

Kicker also in the second to last round.

There just isn't enough upside.

I push back only a little bit with kicker,

let's say during Justin Tucker's heyday and now what you have in dallas with brandon aubrey those are guys i take as a fantasy player i take a lot of um

it takes anxiety away to just have a plug-and-play kicker that i like and if it's one of those elite guys i might take them a little bit earlier um than other people just to get ahead of it but defense i'm totally with you in the sense that the uh they talk about it on a ftn the uh aaron shots um yeah uh site that the plexiglass principle and a lot of times like a defense that that performs at a very high level, even something like historically great, like the Eagles were for a stretch down at the end of last season, they typically regress to the mean.

So even if you think, oh, I'm going to grab the best defense out there, which is going to, it's going to be the Eagles this year, you're going to end up probably being disappointed.

And what you're probably going to do, you're going to double down.

You're going to chase bad money and stick with that defense if it's struggling early when you should have been doing what Lindsay's saying all along, which is just stream week to week and get ahead of it.

That's the other advice I guess I would give: outthink your opponent by check out three weeks ahead.

And if you, even if you have a chance, a little roster flexibility, stash a D.

That's playing the worst offense in the league next week, and you can just start winning that spot.

Can I push back on your pushback on the kicker point?

Double pushback.

Let's go.

So let's see how many times we can do this.

Because kicker conversation is what people want to know before their fantasy drafts.

On this show, yes, for some reason.

Again, we have a lot of European listeners.

They love the football.

The kicker in fantasy that is the most valuable is the one who is on a good enough offense to get into field goal range, but a bad enough offense to not turn it into a touchdown.

You want somebody who's going to be kicking a lot of field goals because extra points are, it's a point, right?

Like what you want are field goals and preferably longer field goals.

So that's a hard prediction to make that oftentimes doesn't really become obvious until the season's underway.

So you can oftentimes, because people do plug and play their kicker and they don't go back and they don't pay attention to that one.

If you check in terms of scoring leaders, you can find a kicker who's probably kicker three on the season at any point

on the waiver wire.

Like there are always high scorers at the kicker position that you can just pick up on waivers, probably for free.

Nobody's even putting in a waiver claim.

Just wait until waivers have passed, plug them in on Thursday or Friday as a free agent, and you've got a viable kicker.

And then ride that out until they have a bad matchup, i.e., face a good offense, and then do the exact same thing.

So, I would argue that even though it felt comfortable to plug in a Justin Tucker or something like that back in the day, you could have been like, oh, look at this guy who's the new Justin Tucker this year, but only for a year.

They don't even necessarily have to be good.

They just have to have a lot of field goal opportunities.

I am not going to push back on the kicker topic for a third time here.

Yeah, I think we've wrapped up that.

That helped, though.

That's helpful.

But I will ask this because the one thing that sort of annoys me about the season by season, I guess the summer into autumn deal with fantasy is that there's this intense like focus on the draft.

Then the draft ends like two hours later, if you're in a quick draft, and like your team is shattered three weeks later by injury or just general catastrophe.

If you're new and you don't know what you're doing, how do you approach like the frenzy and the chaos that unravels on waiver wire and everything out the minute the draft ends because that's how i think you don't win by your draft like it's nice to have a good draft but like it's the person that is like constantly massaging the roster that um that gets out of the season and it feels like a tough chore for a newbie I agree with that.

And so I would say, if you don't have the bandwidth to take on, I'm going to do waivers every week, all that kind of stuff.

The one week I would implore you to do it is after week one.

I think that's your waiver wire cheat code, the most value.

Like, think about Puka.

Puka was a week one waiver wire ad for people who weren't smart enough to draft him in the later round.

Holla, Bucky Irving, like those types of guys that actually do pop as rookies, you usually have some clues pretty early on that they're going to have a role.

And the problem that we have right now is that we get so enamored with all of these rookies and the new guys, and we like get married to the upside of the what-ifs.

So you're going to draft a lot of people in later rounds that you're like, maybe, maybe this guy's going to be good.

Well, after week one or during week one, we're finally going to get some answers to all of the questions we've been talking about all offseason.

And the coach is going to show us what he wants to do offensively, how often they're going to run the ball, how often they're going to throw the ball, how well they're going to do those things, whether or not this wide receiver that's a rookie is on the field with the first team quite frequently.

How many targets did he get?

Like that kind of stuff.

Running backs, where are they in the rotation?

We're going to get answers in week one.

I mean, we'll continue to get them all season long.

It'll change, but week one is the first real true set of answers that we're getting about these teams.

And so if you're never going to pay attention to waivers, just do it in week one.

And if it's all too, like you're like there's too much going on here, most sites have those most added players lists and you can cheat off of that.

Because the people that are getting added the most are the people that are like, especially after week one, they're like, oh no, we screwed up in our drafts.

drafts that's the guy go get him and if you're if you're simply too overwhelmed maybe this isn't the thing for you to begin they could pick up a you know jogging or swimming or something instead yeah we're not we're not constructing an atom bomb here yeah it's it's not like rocket science it can be rocket science that's the fun part about fantasy for me is that it can be whatever you want it to be right but i would say that if anybody cares enough about the nfl to be watching a podcast like yours then um part of the fun, part of the reason I fell in love with fantasy was because of the way that it made me understand all of the teams offenses, I'll give you that, the depth of those teams more.

Because for competitive purposes, you are sometimes

incentivized to know who the wide receiver three is on various offenses.

If you're just like watching ESPN or, you know, NFL Network or whatever, I mean, we both know they're not talking about those guys at all.

So it might make game day more fun for you because you actually know more of the names.

You know the little intricacies that are making the teams go.

You know, you know, where there's a drop-off.

They've got one wide receiver and then they've got nothing else after that, right?

Like there are some things that you can pick up playing fantasy that will just make you a better football fan.

And you can make it whatever you want it to be.

I love this, Lindsay.

I feel like you've done great work for people.

People that maybe don't deserve what you've given them.

Possibly.

They do.

They do.

I believe in you guys.

You deserve it.

You deserve a good fantasy team.

Where could people learn more and see more from Lindsey Rhodes?

Well, Lindsay underscore Rhodes is the handle on the Twitter.

And I will be putting out more and more fantasy content over the next couple of weeks as we get closer and closer to drafts.

I also host a show called The Sumer Sports Show.

So if you are not somebody who is, well, maybe even if you're like, I'm just barely into fantasy, but I'm like deep in the weeds into football.

We're kind of like really nerdy into the football team building, roster building strategies, data, all of that kind of stuff on that show.

We just did a fantasy podcast that was about like how to use data, how data informs our strategies.

So rather than just going like draft this guy or draft this guy, we're telling you why, the thought process behind why we want to do some of the things that we're doing in fantasy.

So if you are somebody who is new to fantasy and maybe you don't want to suck or just like half-ass it,

then that might be a good podcast to go check out that Sumer Sports, S-U-M-E-R.

And now, Lindsay will join the rest of the people at this fantasy football conference of some kind, both men and women.

And I am a champion of women, so I am pointing that out.

Clearly, have I am I good now or no?

Yeah, I mean, I don't think we win the awards this week, but like, maybe you're not going to get canceled, so we're good.

I'll take it, Lindsay.

I'll vouch for you, Dan.

Yes,

Lindsay,

have a good trip home.

Bye.

Thanks, guys.

How about that, Mark?

We've reached the

end of this path

through

the woods.

It's time for you to collect your nymphs and drop them off at, I assume,

Skid Row or a local bus station in downtown Los Angeles.

We must exit the fantasy wilderness.

They've got to go home.

But I hope they had a great time.

And I hope you, the listener and viewer, had a great time as we did our best to get you ready for your fantasy draft.

Thank you to all of our friends who joined us.

Matthew Berry, Matt Harmon, Pat Daugherty, Lindsey Rhodes.

Go win your league.

Make your friends...

Make your friends dislike you, envy you.

That's the goal.

Mark, any final words.

That's what friendship is about, ultimately.

You want to trigger those kinds of feelings through competition.

And no one who's listened to this doesn't have a real excuse to not at least make the playoffs at this point.

I feel like the nuggets have been rich and handed out in wealthy fashion.

Yeah, and whatever you do.

Yeah, and whatever you do, just

have a great season, but don't tell us about your fantasy team because we don't care.

No.

Until next time, do what you must.

Heed the call.

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