Brock Purdy's Payday + Caleb Williams Drama & Boom or Bust Players for 2025

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The heat the call

podcast.

To them,

the action is the juice.

We got it.

R.I.P.

Sizemore.

Welcome to Heed the Call.

Still heeding that call.

Dan Hansis, Mark Sessler.

Ooh, full house today.

The great Connor Orr.

The great James Palmer.

Boys, how is everybody?

Palmer, it's been a while.

I know.

It's been good, guys.

It's been really good.

James.

All right.

Good.

Yeah.

That's great.

I'm holding up a heed the call pint glass, by the way.

It's a beautiful glass.

People are getting increasingly

antagonistic towards us about merch.

Do you have an update for the people?

Well, I think that I understand the

impatience because it's years in the making.

We are working, I would use the word tirelessly behind the scenes to create for our proud group of listeners an array of products and ideas.

And it's going to be coming this summer.

And, you know, I was just walking by, I live in LA with you, Dan, and like in my apartment, there's a pool centered in the middle.

That's what happens in apartments.

And suddenly you start to see all sorts of attractive people sitting around the pool.

Say, I want to get my glass and go sit down there.

And we're going to create a password.

Well, you shouldn't have glass by the ball.

You can't put glass by classic pool 101.

Well, that's fair.

Like, I'm glad that you told me because I literally came up with one example where people shouldn't have our pint glasses.

Okay.

Well, I will thank you for the note.

I don't know why I picture Mark just coming down in one of those onesie Harry Houdini outfits as his bathing suit or swimwear or swimming colours.

And he's got a huge tray, right, James?

He's got a huge tray of all the pint glasses.

And he's like, all right, guys, the part is here.

Inevitably trips.

Glass everywhere into the pool along the outer lining.

Yep, 100%.

Oh, perfect.

Well, thank you.

Yeah.

Speaking of Hollywood, speaking of Hollywood,

Justin, can you jump in a second?

This was brought to my attention

on Monday

that

our fearless co-host, Connor, are you aware of this?

Our fearless co-host, Mark Sessler, is dipping his hoe his toe in Hollywood.

What?

And In the silver screen.

As I understand it, I know nothing about this, but apparently Mark has a project where he is talent on camera, in front of the camera.

Whoa.

Actor.

Well,

I'm going to be honest with you.

I did not earn a role.

Billy, who earned a role and actually at a speaking part, brought me on as a

background character.

To the audience, I may not be aware.

Billy is my girlfriend who's an actress, and she's gaining steam.

And I was brought on, there is, I have no, I learned very quickly, I do not know how to do anything remotely acting-wise, but I was brought on screen as something called Dishwasher One.

And so in the background of, I'll provide some footage, gentlemen, but in the background, you can see me footage.

Oh, we are watching.

Oh, we do?

All right, well, okay.

Do we really?

Do we have footage?

No.

This is from a daily footage.

All right, let's check it out.

Mark Sessler is acting debut in Hollywood.

Here we go.

This is behind the scenes footage.

Oh, behind the scenes.

Okay.

Yeah.

You can see me deep in the background there on the if at as she moves.

That was me.

That was.

I didn't.

Wait.

I didn't see anything there.

Well, it went on a little bit longer than that, I thought.

Yeah, no, it's very hard to see where Mark is.

The first time I got this, I was like, Mark, you sent me the wrong video.

You're not in this.

But

that sort of suggests that.

The dishwasher is very large, that man.

No, I did not see.

I didn't see anything.

Did you say you were on on this camera or are are you are you direct are you assistant director

did he have the light slow that did he have the mic yeah so i took it i i took it i took a second look i slowed it down and i was able to locate mark actually in this video so same video slowed down

oh i see the untitled sesame project

estimated release 2012.

see back there i'm washing the dish i'd recognize that here anywhere so you're not even hurts there's the long motor chef right there i was gonna say you're not even principal background in the background kitchen you're the background of the background well in that scene i i will say when when it comes out i you know and there's there's richer footage but i do appear in other um other scenes but in this case i'm back there actually toiling at um you know with dishware what was your you know felt this part like what did you think what were what was you're using as your inspiration uh you know dan always cites this um summer camp that i went to um he calls it camp happiness But when I was a counselor there, I actually, one of my side jobs was to wash dishes.

And like, you got 700 kids dropping all their stuff in after lunch.

And there's these big power washers.

And I spent hours washing dishes.

So I kind of just channeled my age 16 to 18 experience in that industry.

All right, I'll ask it because I know Connor's thinking it, so I'll ask it.

In light of everything that's happening with

Bill,

Did you

strong arm your way into this role by leaning on the star power of your spouse?

Significant other?

Wow.

Well, no, they.

Somebody has to ask the question.

Connor, somebody had to ask.

They desperately needed background people, and so I was pulled in.

And,

you know, you sit and wait for about eight hours to go do five minutes of

acting work.

I just, again, I realized I don't belong in this industry from an acting side.

I've never seen it.

Can I discuss the sniff test?

I have a lot of questions.

First,

the chef in front of you looked eerily like Jalen Hurts, and I can't get it.

Like he ate Jalen Hurts.

Like he ate Jalen Hurts.

Yes.

Yeah.

He was a real chef in real life and now became an actor.

Whoa.

People were channeling, you know, real.

Look at you, like, just chopping it up, sharing stories from the set.

Tell me that's not.

Tinseltown, baby.

They got a Bon degas soup, by the way, which is pretty sweet.

When you were background, you are not spoken to by anyone.

That's what I learned.

There was a caste system, and I was at the, if it was, you know, the Indian subcontinent, you're at the lowest possible caste.

That's,

I'll just leave it there.

It's, it's a, it's, you've got to work your way up.

And I was at the very bottom.

Did you ruin anything?

You're living in the center of Hollywood.

You're on top of the world.

And now you're branching out in different directions.

And that's really exciting.

We're all excited because you having success in Hollywood raises your profile, which can only be good for this program.

Yeah.

I think it becomes my first ever IMDb credit.

So that, you know, if you were to search me on that, it wouldn't take you long to scan what I'm working on.

I like this.

I think we're ready to roll with them, guys.

I'll be Turtle.

I'm not sure who you guys want to be.

We all want to be Turtle.

Turtle is the easiest gig.

Yeah, it is.

All right.

Well, Conman can be E, apparently.

Okay.

What are we talking about here?

Don't worry about it.

It's a show that the cultural Cognicente has forgotten about it.

All right, let's dig into everything to come today.

We're going to get into boomer bust candidates in 2026.

And

also just a reminder that we are brought to you by Underdog.

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With that said, let's hit the news.

We have so many meetings about that, of what we're going to do in these scenarios, calls we might call, what we would call if we've already called that, and everything like that.

So, hey, you guys, you guys need to stop.

Taylor, stop it.

Hey, stop it.

Stop it.

Look forward.

Look forward.

Look forward and stop.

That's how you run an organization.

We finally found the one clip that made me like Nick Siriani a little bit.

Relatable, frustrated dad energy

from Big Nick.

Big day for Big Nick Siriani.

On Monday, the Eagles agreed to a multi-year extension with the head coach.

Terms of the extension at the time of this recording were not disclosed.

Here is a missive from Eagles owner Jeffrey Lurie.

As an organization, we have always strived to create a championship culture of sustained success.

Nothing is more important to fostering such an environment than having tremendous leadership.

Nick, I swear to God, there's got to be just some like document somewhere that all these guys just use, share doc, and they just, it's mad libs.

Nick has embodied everything we were looking for in a head coach since we hired him for a year.

Okay, I got it.

Siriani

is the Super Bowl champion coach.

And when you achieve those heights, whether or not you think Sirianni is an elite coach, which I personally do not, he deserves to get paid, especially James Palmer, when you are 48 and 20 in your career and you have just come off a Super Bowl and you've been to two Super Bowls in four years.

It's hard to quibble with this.

This is the spoils of being a champion.

Yeah, I know people will say that this is one of the best rosters in football.

In my opinion, it is the best roster in football over the last couple of years.

So you could take something away from Nick Siriani.

I think they're one of the best defensive minds in football and Vic Fangio on that side of the ball.

You could take something away from Nick Siriani, but he does just win since he's become a head coach.

And that's undeniable in a sense.

The one point I wanted to make is is: I've talked to a lot of people in that building.

I consistently always do.

And a lot went wrong, right, last year before this 2024 campaign.

And Nick Siriani had a lot of blame put on him, and rightfully so, according to some people in that building, but also what was fixed in 2024.

A lot of that falls on Nick Siriani talking to assistant coaches there, talking to people within the front office, what he changed and culturally and allows his staff to do and encourages and the pillars of success that he wants to go by.

He is, in all honesty, beloved in that building.

And what he did this past year was really impressive in the eyes of the players and coaches that he works with.

And I think that's probably obviously the most important thing.

And if you win at the same time, you get rewarded.

And Jeffrey Lurie has

done that.

I do wonder, well, I'll say this.

I think it's good for Nick Siriani specifically, right?

This day is good for him because he attains some iteration of generational wealth.

In terms of how long that makes him the head coach of of the Eagles, I don't think this contract matters at all.

Because the one thing that you could say about Jeffrey Lurie is he's heavily influenced organizationally by some of those retro Celtics teams who have had, you know, coaches for long periods of time, but always got rid of guys early.

And that was a big thing that impressed upon him.

It's better to get rid of a guy early than it is late.

He cut Doug Peterson, what, two years after winning the franchise's first Super Bowl in 50 years.

If Nick Siriani gets off the rails even marginally, if he has a bad year next year, we're talking about this guy getting fired with four years left on his contract.

And so it's great for Nick.

I think that's awesome.

I think it's well-deserved.

I think he did an awesome job.

But with the Eagles, a contract extension to me never really means anything.

Of course, they're going to send you the money, but beyond that, I don't think that they're going to really be beholden to it.

I like that about the Eagles because they're willing to shift and not like they're flexible, and that's what's good about them.

I mean, I look at those three kids.

They may never have to get real jobs in their lifetime.

Those kids

are not by this point, right?

They may not.

And the one thing I'd say about Nick Siriani.

Is that a good thing?

Well, no, I don't think it's a good thing.

I'm just saying the money is real.

But if Nick Siriani had Sean McVay's personality,

would we be saying that he's a top-five coach after what he's accomplished in the last couple of years?

Does his personality get in the way of us kind of like looking for reasons why he's not the reason they're winning these games?

I think it's time to have real conversations about Nick Siriani beyond just like the fun ones we tend to have on the show.

And my actual analysis of him as a head coach is that it's very unusual to have a head coach bookend two Super Bowl appearances with that insane collapse in 23 when they went one and six and were non-competitive down the stretch and there was all sorts of infighting in the locker room.

JP makes a great point.

You got to give him credit.

If you're going to kill him for that, you give him credit for getting it back together.

But I think it's absolutely fair to point out the absolute, we want to talk about riches, the riches he's been given as a head coach.

And the one time when he wasn't given riches as a in terms of a an assistant in terms of his assistants and the people that were with him the whole thing crumbled I've always thought he's been very very propped up by his coordinators on both sides of the ball and the good news a lot of them though Yeah, I get it.

But I'm pointing specifically to, I think, the black and white of 23 and 24.

I think the actual value of Siriani is somewhere in between those extremes where I do not put him in the top five head coaches in the current NFL landscape.

You look at certain stats like his winning percentage where he's sharing real estate with Vince Lombardi, John Madden, the likes of those characters.

Like he's not those guys either, but he's a perfect vehicle for shows like this, quite frankly.

And then people who cover football for a living to say, no, actually, he's terrible.

Actually, he's this.

I've always found him to be entertaining and frustrating because I do think he's a bit obviously of, hmm, Some would say chodrocket at times.

That would be one term, but you could use many terms.

Frat boy would be something.

Somebody loves Trump.

You could say frat boy.

That would be another thing.

I don't know about his politics, so I won't get into that.

But he is a good figure for conversation and what we do for a living.

Do I think he's a great coach?

No.

Do I think he's a rich one?

Yes, very much so.

Here's the reason that I think Nick is special and different than anyone else.

And you can ignore or choose to or choose not to.

There was all those stories that came out towards the end of last season when they were on the run.

And clearly like a PR kind of tailwind behind Nick to try to get last season behind him.

But, you know, a player on a team,

his parents fall ill and he's writing them notes or taking them in.

And I do think that that's one advantage of a CEO head coach that's removed from his coordinators that he does have.

And I've talked to countless coaches who have been fired and they always said that that's the one thing that they didn't do that they wish they did.

I wish I got my ass out of the quarterback room.

I wish I put my arm around more people and I wish I asked them how they were doing or talked to them about themselves as people.

And the way that that manifests on the field, he has a hundred million dollar wide receiver A.J.

Brown that's blocking his ass off and Devonta Smith, who might not get a ball for 30 straight targets, playing his ass off, knowing that he's setting other guys up in the offense.

I just think that the only way that you can do that is if you have an interpersonal guy who gives a shit about the players and the setup that he has created at this point has allowed him to do it.

That doesn't mean that we have to like him, but I think that means that a lot of other people like him.

I think one example, Connor, of how it's worked is I've talked to Saints coaches that are new to working with Kellen Moore right now.

And I talked to them this offseason.

And what I'm hearing about how Kellen's working and how he's like, hey, I'm going to evaluate you as a position coach, but if you really know what the hell you're doing in terms of the details, I'm not going to sit in there and have you go over or try to coach over your head in terms of the steps on a post.

Like, I'm going to let you coach.

And he's using a lot of the things that I've heard from Philadelphia.

So if that rubbed off on Kellen Moore about how he wants to operate a little bit in New Orleans, it shows me that Kellen saw some of that working very well in his one year in Philadelphia.

So I will say that.

Like the one thing that players want is consistency and they want a schedule and they want everything to always, they want to know where they stand at all times.

Nick is really good at that.

And the things don't change with what's important to him and important to the organization.

And so

he has found a formula formula that's working, I will say that, for the building that he's in.

It did last year.

Ton of talent.

You got Fangio back, obviously.

It will be a good test.

I think maybe a little bit of a way to look at it.

Playing rock, paper, scissors with players pays off.

2025, Kevin Petullo is now the offensive coordinator.

He's an in-house promotion.

Let's see how the offense hums with Petullo, a guy in the building in the Siriani Siriani world.

All right, good stuff.

I don't even really want to talk about the Tush Push.

I'm so done with the Tush Push.

It no longer interests me.

It's as

a subject of debate.

It bores me at this point.

In fact,

if it passes, it doesn't, and it's banned or whatever, it doesn't validate my opinion.

I think the play sucks.

If it continues in the league, which I think it probably will end up doing that, great.

Can we just all agree to stop talking about it?

Connor, NFL owners are scheduled to meet Tuesday and Wednesday in Minneapolis to vote on the proposal.

Remember, it was pushed to this date.

The Tush Push, it was tabled this spring at the league meeting and is expected to come to vote this week.

So I guess the language is going to be a little bit different, but we'll see if it passes or doesn't.

Whatever it is, just let it be what it is and let's move on, please.

Here's the problem, though.

I think that if you legislate the Tush Push, you're then opening the door to legislating any other kind of against the grain play.

And then coaches will then...

Good, then don't do it.

Yes, I'm not sure.

I agree with you.

This is Rabel's argument, Connor.

Great.

Good job, Mike Rabel.

Let's go with them then.

Can we just stop talking about it?

Like, I think we reached a point where we talked about a play and turned this into gruel to the point where it doesn't really matter that much.

Hold on.

I only have about 50 more things I have to say about this.

I mean, on this show, we've burned this topic to the ground on this show.

And it's not just us,

it's more like a global thing.

Like, we're giving this play way too much credit in general for the amount of discourse.

Can we just, like, how about this?

As a show, our next episode will very quietly and quickly report the results of the revote or whatever the f ⁇ , and we will never talk about it again.

How about that?

It's our show, and so we can legislate it it as we deem appropriate.

Perfect.

All right.

Is that okay with everybody?

I don't mean to

domineer here.

I just can't.

I don't know.

Maybe I'm just getting older and I'm cranky.

I just can't do it anymore.

So you don't want me to read these stats on it?

No, no, I do not.

Okay.

Whatever you do, do not read stats.

James, I'll call you later.

We'll talk about the touch push.

Perfect.

Face to face.

You guys can recreate your podcast from about 12 years ago if you'd like to.

What was it called again?

Bring it back, and that could be just like episode one pilot.

Or opinion.

The only show ever.

I mean, I would imagine that anyone who puts a podcast out into the world would at least accidentally get someone in Venezuela stumbling upon it, looking for something else.

I think this had negative listens.

Like, I think that it was.

I literally got paid in groceries.

So real casual.

But now imagine a relaunch where it's the first first episode is 120 minutes straight of two guys agreeing on how cool the tush bush is.

Yeah.

With a bunch of arguments in the favor of the business.

You pick your spot.

All right.

In other news, interesting that the big two like contract stuff that's gone down in the last 72 hours.

One is Siriani, a guy who's polarizing in different ways.

And here's Brock Purdy, a quarterback who, while they're very different personalities, I think you can make cases in each direction for a man like Brock Purdy and what he's worth on the market.

The 49ers and Brock Purdy agree to a five-year extension worth $265 million.

This is big boy money.

This is, I'm a star quarterback.

You could build a franchise around me, quarterback money.

And I think that's where the discourse begins.

It includes $181 million in total guarantees.

It includes $165 million in the first three new years of a deal that runs through 2030.

Amaron, now we're talking 2030 when we talk about contract shit.

Woof.

That is,

that's a lot.

That's, that's a long, I mean, it's getting, it's happening.

It's happening.

Anyway,

blah, blah, blah.

Full no trade clause.

And it does put him in that, like I said, big boy club mark when you talk about the highest paid quarterbacks in terms of AAV,

which is an abbreviation for what, James?

Average.

Was it AAV?

Average.

Average annual value.

Is that what it is?

Average annual value.

Yep.

Dak Prescott at 60.

Joe Burrow, Josh Allen, Jordan Love, Trevor Lawrence, all at 55.

Tua

at 53.1.

Goff at 53.

Purdy at 53.

Just a fun little note here.

Thank you to Justin Graver, always doing great work in the production side of things.

All the way down, tied for 14 is Patrick Mahomes at $45 million.

So this is a great job by the agent.

And now the 49ers

are in bed with the former Mr.

Irrelevant Mark, not so irrelevant anymore.

No, I think from that angle, it's one of the better football stories around in terms of where

his generation is into the league.

Isn't it one of the great stories ever?

A guy that's a seventh round pick?

Yeah.

We were helmed with having to write those mystery relevant stories on NFL.com for years.

And that player typically would vanish out of the hemisphere within a year or two.

You know, like I would say this, because a year ago, the Niners were locked into

a problematic offseason where Brandon Ayuk and Trent Williams were tangling for new contracts.

I think it disrupted training camp.

It's one of the reasons they won six games.

It was just disjointed.

They're in a bit of a reboot.

They've got a lot of new players.

And if you're Brock Purdy, and I think they did a good job here, like he didn't demand, from his side, there must have been an admission.

I'm not going to necessarily demand to get paid.

Like every other quarterback, suddenly I'm the highest played quarterback in the league.

He is sitting down there, tied with Goff, below Tua, like below Trevor Lawrence.

It's 53, though.

He didn't take a hit.

I don't have a problem with it.

I guess the thing is, if it's like you don't think he's a good enough player or it's a Shanahan system guy, I really think that there's no other way to do this contract than to be where he is to some degree.

I'm higher on Brock Purdy than other people, but it's like this is just the way of signing quarterbacks.

There's no way he would have been down 14 more slots in the middle of it.

And like, I don't have a problem with this.

Like, I guess if you're the Niners, what's the other move?

What do you do?

Where do you go get the most important position in sports?

Brock Purdy, by many metrics, has been among the top quarterbacks in many possible ways.

He fits the system.

I don't want him to go to go sign with the Houston Texans, although that's the wrong example because that's a Shanahan system.

I like him for Shanahan.

And by the way, this is Kyle Shanahan's decision.

Can I answer your question?

What do you do if you're the 49er?

I'm not saying they should, but since you asked the question, right?

I'll use a baseball analogy, like the Tampa Bay Rays.

Their whole thing is draft, develop, and then when they get too expensive, you either let them walk or you trade them.

I ideally to be able to rebuild.

Let me just finish.

Let me just finish.

So, if you believe in your system, that was a path they could have gone.

And then you get out of this because it does, Connor, obviously, now up the ante and the challenge organizationally once you have the quarterback getting paid at that level.

I'm not saying they shouldn't do it, and I totally agree with you, Mark, that that is

how it works, that he was always going to get paid this way, unless you could somehow snooker him into a Sam Darnold-type deal, which was never going to happen.

But there is another path they could have chose.

That's just a really gutsy path that they were not interested in.

It's interesting to me because it reminds me a lot of the first big extensions that Jared Goff and Carson Wentz signed at the same time, where it was year after year after year of every quarterback contract, no matter what, resetting the market, like Derek Carr, Andrew Luck, all these guys, just reset after reset after reset.

And then all of a sudden, it was Goff and Wentz at once that took like a baby step backwards and slowed the market down.

And this is what Purdy's doing, but to me, and this may sound blasphemous, but

why was it such a guarantee to us that Dak Prescott reset the market and Brock Purdy couldn't?

Like, I don't understand the difference in terms of their potential.

Brock Purdy's made it to a Super Bowl, and you can remove all that other ancillary stuff for a second and just say, what made it such an inevitability that Dak Prescott was going to reset the market and why was it so hard for us that we had to land in a spot where what Brock Purdy's making six million dollars a year less just because we can't stomach the idea that he has to be on top I like that you know what I mean I just don't I don't I don't get that part of it Okay, a couple notes I have.

One, I just want to throw this out there because I thought it was hilarious.

Last year, Brock Purdy, if he was playing college football, was the 32nd highest paid quarterback in college football, which is hilarious to me.

And now to what else else matters.

This was decided, to my understanding, with Jed York and John Lynch and Kyle Shanahan, like bye week of, and everybody in the room was unanimously in agreement of this being the direction they wanted to go.

So it was already put in place pretty early that they weren't going to look at the other avenues that they had.

And then what Mark mentioned with Brandon Ayuk and Trent Williams.

Go back a previous year.

It was Nick Bosa.

Go back the year before that.

It was Debo Samuel.

They've dealt with this every single offseason and kyle shanahan's message this past year heading into this uh kyle shanahan's message heading into this offseason was when we were rolling and got this thing rolling we had like 99

attendance during otas and minicamp and things like that that meant something to the organization it meant something to purdy and they didn't want to go through this with their franchise quarterback like they have with these other players which is a reason why they wanted to get it done early i think also guarantees into the third year to me stands out big time because a lot of these quarterback contracts still are only two years that you get a lot of those guarantees.

That's a huge win for Brock Purdy.

I also think the no trade clause is massive in Purdy, and they didn't want to do that apparently early on.

And so

Purdy getting that is huge.

And then the last thing on Mahomes, I just wanted to mention, and that's a great nugget by Justin to put it in there, that relationship is unique in the NFL.

And the length of the contract and the relationship that they have with Mahomes to consistently ask him if he's happy with where he stands.

The flexibility they have in the deal, it'll change again and it'll constantly change.

And their malleability within that contract lets them do a lot of interesting things.

Right now, it's 14th.

I don't think that stays very long.

Yeah, and

Mahomes is one of the most famous athletes in America.

You know, the same thing you saw with Brady.

You see in other sports with a guy like Otani, like they have so many other revenue engines around them that

maybe they're a little more open-minded about a little flexibility with

the team they play for.

One last point I had, Connor.

I do kind of like looking at the list of the AAV rankings because they're very, they're kind of just QB rankings and it kind of just comes down to, that's why Mahomes is kind of an outlier.

Like the fact that Tua, Goff, and Purdy are all paid identically in terms of AAV, practically, it's like.

They are in the same exact bucket, like where you, if he's your quarterback, you probably could view him in one one light from the outside you see maybe more flaws but they all to me are all the same kind of ilk as a passer to there's some complications with his health but um i just find that interesting that in terms of what the open market is for them or what the what their pay scale is it all does kind of slot in where a step above them is uh josh allen and joe burrow and dax an outlier but that feels like a little bit of cowboys tax and jara being jara and then the one guy that kind of stands out to me that jordan love maybe he his agent give him a little credit it's a minor thing two million dollars but I feel like he probably should have been in this little trio with them but he's a bump ahead and you could make the case for Lawrence as well yeah I was gonna say Trevor Lawrence too that's that's that section I think going up to dak is just kind of the underlier of my point it's like why why when those guys did it everyone was like oh yeah absolutely and then Brock Purdy did it and everyone's like whoa whoa you have sad puppy dog eyes so you're not allowed to you're not allowed to reset the market you don't look like a vicious big boy you know and keep an eye on some of these contracts getting changed, like Burroughs, like with Josh Allen getting it done just on a whim, they just re they change the contract.

Look for that to happen more moving forward.

Like this happens with Burrow, maybe a year earlier than you would think, and some of those moving targets happening.

Last thing I'll say is:

does his dad shut down the hot tub biz?

Like, does that place close its doors now, or do they keep that?

I'm unaware of this, but that's too passionate about that industry.

I think the answer is no.

Yeah, that's for fun.

That's for fun.

All right.

and other news all right who's passionate about the hot tub industry

all right let's take a quick break and ruminate pH levels

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All right, we're back.

Let's bring in Gravedigger real quick.

Couple of quick things to hit here.

I'm a little bit, the Cam Ward stuff is...

I want to be fair to you, Justin, because you are the number one Titans fan in my life.

You're a top fan.

You have a thriving podcast with the other Justin called The Two Justins.

Talk Titans Ball show.

Better watch your back.

Music City Audible.

That's right.

I always get that.

I always get that confused.

And it's fair.

It's absolutely fair to point out that Cam Ward's not getting enough juice nationally as a number one overall pick.

And things like this little storyline don't help.

Apparently, Cam Ward tried to swap jerseys with Shadur Sanders, who, if you're unaware, with Sanders, he is a day three draft pick that plays on the Cleveland Browns.

They're at a rookie event for the NFL PA, and Sanders denied the number one overall pick, a jersey swap.

What in the hell is going on here?

I brought your jersey.

I knew that one.

We can switch.

Hey, this is our first jersey swap.

No.

this is the first one

i gotta sell it bro i gotta have

a

f already down

oh no oh i'm already down probably because they spent like a million dollars on that fucocta draft night party

he's the wealthiest fifth round pick of all time in ministry

yeah we don't need to hear that he's also a trust fund baby, so there's also that.

But anyway, this is also, I saw, I think it was Kyle on NFL Network did some type of monologue talking about how Cam, you know, to be a number one overall pick and not even get a single primetime game when they did that schedule release.

It's just, Justin, I feel you because I feel like you should be able to enjoy the spoils and excitement of having number one overall pick, but that energy isn't around ward, whether that's good or bad doesn't really matter.

But the juice ain't there.

Maybe the action is the juice, as Tom Sizemore once said in heat, but still, it's kind of a bummer.

I'm sorry, buddy.

That helmet's spinning behind you a little slower than usual.

Yeah, the schedule release was a little bit of a letdown for Titans fans, but also the VP guy, whoever he was, came out and said that you play your way into primetime.

You don't draft your way into primetime.

Of course, that didn't stop the Raiders and the Panthers and all these other teams from getting primetime games, but hey, who's counting?

The weird thing about Shadur and Cam Ward is they have the same like private QB coach trainer guy, and they've been working out together since Cam Ward transferred, I think, to Washington State.

So for years, they've been working out together.

You'd think there'd be like, I don't know, there was obviously a friendly undertone to Sanders saying no there, but also some sort of like bond that they would have.

I don't know.

But Justin, they're going to be able to do that.

Let's head over to Sanders PR with Mark Sessler.

Well, no, but I was going to say there's that footage of them working out where they're just constantly jawing at each other.

So this just seemed like the next chapter of that to me.

And just to be able to send it over to Sessler crisis management.

I'm not crisis because here's what I would add.

If you think the league is just like, and first of all, how many fifth-round picks are sent to these rookie events?

Not many.

But like, if you think the league is just bought and sold to pump up Shadora Sanders, the Browns are one of the other three teams that did not get a prime time game.

So you got to go do the Jaden Daniels thing where you light up Nashville and you change what we think about the Titans.

And a year from now, it's Tennessee under the lights.

I'm surprised about the Browns not getting a primetime game because one of three teams.

As I pointed out on the show, the Browns, you could always count on the Browns, no matter how bad they are, to have one really fun, inspired Thursday night game at the Titans.

Like the snow game with Jameis, right?

Yeah, I would always just bank one in there in November or whatever.

Whatever.

What do you got, Connor?

I was just going to say, much like you're done with the tush push, like I love, I love Justin dearly as a person and as a friend, but I can't even get the inner momentum to pretend that Cam Ward or the Titans are going to matter in the next half decade in any way, shape, or form.

Like, so much would have to happen to get

even remotely to the point where I would even put them on YouTube TV.

Justin has the power to just remove Connor's screen from the show.

You want to pull Connor out for 30 seconds?

I'll allow it if you want to just

remove Connor for as a penalty for that was so mean.

That was just like, sorry, it's just true.

He just took the knife out and just put it in your stomach and then held eye contact with you as he slowly pulled it out of your belly.

I will say I agree with Connor about having zero impact on the 2025 season.

Like they may play spoiler to a hopeful playoff team late in the year or something.

But for the next half decade, I mean, come on, that would mean Cam Ward is a total bust.

And I don't want that to happen.

That would suck.

If we're still in each other's lives in 2026, Justin,

every time they do something that matters on a large scale,

I will donate to a charity of your choice.

I'll send you vape pens, whatever.

We can agree on whatever you want.

But I feel that confidently in the fact that this wager will just disappear into the ether, much like the Titans.

Jesus.

Connor, by the way.

For the sake of the subreddit, and it came from the subreddit, the Patreon exclusive.

Can you just clarify your wording there?

Like, if we still know each other in 2026, we don't need any thread titles.

What's happening to the show?

What happened?

Is Connor leaving?

Is Justin leaving?

I'm not leaving.

I'm just an asshole.

And the chances that I would get fired on the off, you know, offhand for saying something dumb.

They just exist in some way, shape, or form.

So, you know, nothing's happening.

All right.

Justin, are you okay with Connor right now?

It feels like it's.

I think he needs a timeout, if we're being real.

Let's just do a little bit of this action.

Well, he did it so long

you understand what you just did justin connor

i know 2016 tnc post connor i know he's a very cool customer now and he's matured and he's a dad and he's got a mortgage but mark you know he gets if you trigger him the old boy

back it's still with him i think like yeah for our other guests like james you learn that if you cross justin um you know there are consequences this is a serious producer with a serious-minded love for the Titans.

You just got to pretend that they matter.

That's what we try to do.

But, well, that's one part of it.

But I'm saying you take Connor out of the show.

This is this Connor's going to sit with this.

And when he comes back, Justin, you just got to be ready for the consequences.

So, yeah, that half a decade might just bump right up to a full decade.

I would bring him back in if I were you.

That's all, Justin.

I just want him to know, like, I have the power here to do what I want to do.

It's my show.

You've got the touch.

Hand on the button.

Welcome back, Connor.

Oh,

sorry, Justin.

He's mad with power now.

Great, great degree.

All right, lastly

versus any other time.

All right, let's

seg to our conversation point for today.

That's what's happening in the news.

I don't know if anybody saw it.

There was that Caleb Williams story from Seth Wickersham, which was pretty explosive, pretty good, pretty good.

It's not even a story, I guess.

It's more like a cheese for a book that's coming out called American Kings.

It's coming out in September.

And the talking point, and what became like the big aggregated story that came out of this was that Caleb Williams was, quote, so concerned about being picked by the Chicago Bears in 2024 that he and his family weighed circumventing the entire NFL draft, consulting with lawyers to figure out a way around the league's collective bargaining agreement while considering signing with the United United Football League.

Carl Williams, like Deion Sanders, and I thought that came to my mind during all this,

was behind the scenes very, very strident in trying to protect his son and try to steer him away from the Bears.

In fact, the quote in American Kings, colon, a biography of the quarterback, reads, Chicago is the place quarterbacks go to die.

Said that in the months before the 2024 draft.

He also had some very unkind things to say about the rookie cap and the CBA that the

Players Union agreed to, which he called the, quote, worst piece of shit I've ever read.

All that to be said, I felt this was terribly unfair, James, to Caleb Williams.

And maybe

Caleb Williams and his father should have been a little more savvy here because this makes it I feel like this puts him in a very difficult spot in Chicago with that fan base.

And I found it interesting that this was a story at all, and yet here we are, and it will hang over his relationship with the team, especially if things continue to go sideways as they did in year one.

Well, he speaks for the first time this offseason in about a week.

So, he's got a week to prepare for many questions, I would assume, about the past and not the future with Ben Johnson.

I thought it was interesting in there as well that Carl contacted Archie

and contacted Archie Manning about what they did with Eli to try to get a gauge on maybe finding a different spot.

I will say this.

I think any Bears fan that is muffled by this in any way is lying to themselves that the Williams

are incorrect, that this is a place where quarterbacks go to die.

I mean,

they've watched all of these quarterbacks play, and fit.

and situation, I think, are enormous in the NFL.

And, you know, you do have to go to the team that drafts you.

And oftentimes, when you're drafted at the top of the draft, it is an organization that has a lot of issues that need to be figured out or corrected that usually don't even relate to you, but they directly relate to your play on the field and your success in your first contract.

And going to a spot to where everybody in Chicago, fan-base-wise, would say, why did you guys keep Matt Betterflus?

Why did you hire Shane Walder?

That was maybe one of the worst hires in organization.

history possibly for the Bears.

It is a bad situation to walk into.

And this is the start of your professional career.

Why wouldn't you want to try to create the best position for you, you know, out there?

I think we look at some of these other guys, Mark, honestly, and go, Where did Patrick Mahomes land with Andy Reid and Alex Smith?

Where did Lamar Jackson land?

Where did Josh Allen landed with Brian Daybull and a very patient organization, which most organizations aren't patient?

And ownership on down was going to be very patient with Josh Allen, a player that needed to develop.

Like your spot is extremely important that you land.

And that's why there is some concern uh and i get it from players but i do think he's savvy enough in the media and comfortable enough in his own skin that this is not going to bother him or be an awkward press conference in a week when he has to address this i i agree with that and i think that the bears experience kind of proved everyone's point a year ago and the way that they handle it with it and we can get into the film watching all the stuff but this we are in a different world now this is not marv marenovich this is not jack and john elway and it's not archie manning and eli like these players to your point, James, about where Brock Purdy stood earnings-wise, are making massive amounts of money.

Now, Carl Williams, like helped...

his son go from Oklahoma to USC through the transfer portal.

Like managing one's career like this, I don't see this as the same thing as 1983 with Elway dodging the Baltimore Colts.

It's just a different world.

And you are, we don't have a problem with a father in

outer New York helping his son pick through friends the right construction company or the right painting company.

And this is 10 times more important than that, 100 times more.

And it's like, I just, I think there's like a little bit, if there's sort of angst towards the Williams family, like, I just simply disagree.

Like, it's too important.

And the NFL teams treat you like a product and you can go treat them and try to get yourself in the best possible position.

He landed in the worst of all those quarterbacks a year ago.

I completely understand where they were coming from.

You hope, though, Connor, that now that he's got Ben Johnson, at least they would, they would have been happier a year ago if Ben Johnson were the head coach, I think.

Part of that was all that was going on with Chicago at the time.

Well, we'll see.

And I heard a lot of people saying, oh, well,

why would he do this interview knowing this would come out?

I think they want this to come out.

I think they want this to be out there because they're saying, here's what we didn't like about the last regime.

Nobody helped them.

And listen, a lot of these teams, when they draft a quarterback, they have a veteran there.

The Bears had Tyson Badgent, who was an undrafted free agent the year before.

That guy doesn't know how to watch film either.

And had a very strong arm wrestling dad that would hang around the facility too.

So it was a very bizarre situation.

And so I think the Williamses or the William I or whatever you want to call them, I think the advantage to doing this book and having it come out the way it did, whereas it's just like, listen, Ben Johnson, I don't care if you were three-time assistant of the year or whatever it is.

If you don't fix it, your ass is going to be gone too, because this is about us for at least two to three years, right?

We have a two to three year window where I'm the most promising quarterback prospect in the NFL.

And if it fails, it's your fault.

And then if not, I'm going to go somewhere else and be awesome.

And so I think having it out there is just a little bit of a leverage thing where Ben Johnson, you know, he can't go in there and ride him now because he's got to be concerned about getting jettisoned, too.

I mean, that's.

Do I think that's the thing?

I could not disagree more.

I just think it's totally unnecessary.

And I understand, I, I understand the idea of hope helping your child and trying to guide them.

And I understand the consternation consternation around the Chicago Bears, a team that's never even had, I believe, a 4,000-yard passer.

But I believe this is all unnecessary drama that didn't need to be put out there, certainly not put in a book that's going to be studied endlessly.

You are now in a situation where you did go to the Chicago Bears, and you are under contract at a high level, and you are the face of the franchise, and that franchise is doing everything in its power now to set you up the right way, even if the first year didn't go well.

To me, this just creates distraction.

And

if the intention here was to somehow put the organization on its heels or everybody's head on a swivel, like, all right, but it feels like it's pumping a lot of negativity and heat into a room when it's hard enough to be successful NFL star quarterback.

And it just adds a layer to it and a very active and boisterous media market on top of it.

I hope it all works out.

I hope it does, but I felt it to be unnecessary.

And I just, you know, there is a little nugget, though, because first of all, I mean, Seth Wickersham, like, wow, like, I can't, I kind of can't wait to read this book because he, whatever he does, it's so well done.

And, like, there's other layers to this.

Like, there was the nugget that Caleb Williams came around and said, I want to do this for the Bears.

Like, I want to play for them.

Now, I mean, I'm in the heat of the moment that the biggest winner here is also Kevin O'Connell.

Like, Caleb Williams and Kevin O'Connell met this part of this book is that like Kevin O'Connell won them over in two seconds.

And there's like Shane Waldron's the biggest loser, but Kevin O'Connell comes out as this guy that like quarterbacks fall in love with.

And there's just no way that they were going to get Kayla Williams to the Minnesota Vikings under any circumstance.

But he wasn't totally anti-Bears when it came down to the 11th hour of it all.

I do want to add, is this the first player that wasn't over the moon about where they were going to land?

No.

No, and specifically at that position.

Like, I mean, because

unlike any other sport, fit is more important in the NFL, right?

Like, the way defenses change schemes, the way offenses run different schemes, your skill set may work great in one system, and it may work terribly in another system.

Where your fit is is a huge part of your success as a professional football player, specifically as a quarterback.

So, I do understand that, like, there's been other players in the past that have had some trepidation about where they were going to land because this is your future.

So, him being honest with it, I think it's kind of refreshing.

Guess what?

Every head coach in college football did not get every recruit they wanted, even though they sit there and go, you know, we got all the guys we were looking for.

This was a hell of a class, guys.

No, you missed out on like half the guys you wanted.

But, like, at least somebody's being honest about the process in some capacity.

And I'm not rubbed entirely all that wrong by Caleb Williams.

That's what she said.

Yeah,

I think it's like you're looking for a scapegoat preemptively or something.

I'm just not, I'm not about it.

I hate it.

All right, let's just move on.

Okay,

it's our show.

We shall.

Hey, so Caleb Williams is a good example.

I think the Bears are a major boom and bust team.

Obviously, Caleb Williams is, I feel, has boom or bust energy as a quarterback this year.

And with that said, why don't we wrap the show by sharing some boom or bust candidates

in 2025?

And I think the idea of this exercise is players that really have high variance, where you could think about it and really examine their situation and be like, that guy is going to be a stud this year.

And conversely, if a few things go the wrong way, and Caleb Williams, again, being a great example of this Ben Johnson thing isn't the great shakes it's supposed to be as an example,

it could go very poorly and his offensive line isn't improved, blah, blah, blah.

It can go very poorly as well.

Get us going.

Who's got a quarterback?

Let's start with the QB since we're talking QBs.

Mark, start us off.

I kind of know how I feel feel about this player, and I kind of think I know how Dan feels about this player, but I'm going Anthony Richardson.

And here's the reason, because I think he sort of presumed six feet under on some level after they go and get Daniel Jones.

That said,

There is, there are images out this offseason of how he looks.

He's a monster.

He's an absolute monstrous specimen.

He can throw the ball 70 yards off his back foot.

He had the highest yards per completion percentage in the league last year, and also the worst completion percentage overall.

So, he is a high-variance player.

Well, I guess I'm looking at him saying, like, could he, because Daniel Jones, it's like, I think Daniel Jones starts probably, but like, do you book Daniel Jones automatically for 17 games?

No, he is sort of a high-variance player where he probably is going to get hurt or be out of there.

Anthony Richardson, I think, has a chance to play, and he's a tough guy for Shane Steichen.

I mean, there was a game where he went 10 for 32, I think, against the Texans.

Like, this is someone who's doing some of the lowest work possible, but also, like, the attraction to what he could offer is so tantalizing.

It's like, can you find the skeleton key to open that door and unlock it?

So I could see one of two things.

One, he kind of has a turnaround type season where we're like, we get it now, or he's not on the cults, or maybe he's not on the cults at all a year from now.

It's like the X or the Y on this is kind of wild from a graph percentage point.

And so for me, he is a total boomer-bust type guy where like the boom I'm more suspicious of, but the bust is very much a possibility.

I'll answer on that one first since you mentioned me.

Yeah, I think I've seen enough of Anthony Richardson, and I think the Colts are very close to that as well, that he is a bust.

And I don't think he could play.

And I think all the evidence out there, like, I don't really care anymore that he's big and strong and he could throw at 70 yards because quarterback is so much more than that.

And he showed in

the two seasons we've seen.

I know he didn't play a lot the first year, but last year it went as bad as possible.

So to me,

for me, he doesn't fit this category because to me, he is on the bust side and anything they get from him that takes him to the middle of the pack would be probably i i would think the best you can get out of anthony richardson at this point he's close to a sunk cost for me uh does anyone see him as a guy who could potentially boom in a legitimate way you could actually see it happen

can can we say like okay is boom if he starts

If he starts 17 games and has between rushing and throwing like 25 to 30 touchdowns, is that considered like a boom in your mind?

I would say so.

Then you would see him establishing himself as someone you could bank on both in terms of durability and he could move that offense, it sounds like.

Let's see if he's if this if this Daniel Jones signing was a legit cold water bath to get him into the facility every day and to get him up to speed with everything.

And let's see if the Tyler Warren thing at least diversifies their offense to the point where he has some reliable targets, some easy completions out of the backfield.

And just, you know, it's not about fixing the totality of it.

I think it's about fixing the first 10 minutes of the game to get him into a rhythm and to get him feeling confident in himself and to have him getting to that point prepared.

And maybe there's a boom there.

I don't know.

I have one small point to make.

You know, Steve Smith and I do our show.

We talk a lot about receivers.

We do rookie receiver report cards.

And I was alling around about the rookie receivers this past year.

And I talked to a defensive coordinator in the division.

And I said, A.D.

Mitchell, tell me, what do you guys think about facing him?

He's like,

I don't know.

The quarterback's terrible.

So I have no evaluation of these receivers.

So that was

the worst of a DC that's faced Anthony Richardson, in his opinion, of where he stands right now.

You know, and I would, one other thing you said, Mark, I would be very surprised unless he totally craters

in training camp and in preseason, which is possible based on what we've been talking about, if he's not starting week one.

I really think they're going to give him the chance because they invested so much in him.

And then Daniel Jones is there waiting in the wings to step in and be hopefully an upgrade over Joe Flacco from a year ago.

I still, if he doesn't have the job coming out of training camp, I think it's already over and they've cashed out entirely on him.

I think you might be right there, but I also think if you're Shane Steichen, the reason I think he may come in a little bit later, and he is a young player who barely played college.

All I'm saying is like, someone else is going to say,

if we want patience, we want to grow him.

It may be more than just a year one starter, year two starter.

But I kind of don't think he'll start week one.

And there's, well, we'll see what happens in training camp.

Because Shane Steichen, like, you can't just like let someone sink the offense.

Like, you're trying to keep your job and you've got a big staff of players and coaches around you that like need to go do the best they can.

And if he's not ready, I don't throw him out there if I'm Shane Steichen.

It's going to be hard to boom if he can't even get on the field for week one.

Let's see what happens.

I'll throw out a running back and I'll throw out a veteran and on the opposite end of the spectrum,

unproven former first-round pick.

Here is a proven first-round pick.

Here's a guy that is produced at his position as well as anybody in the history of modern football.

It's coming off a kind of a disaster of a year.

It's Christian McCaffrey.

The 49ers, in general, profile to me as a total mystery entering this year.

They're coming off a 6-11 season.

If you told me that happens again this year, I'd be a little bit surprised, but I wouldn't be stunned if they struggled again or, you know, maybe eeked out a 9-8 or an 8-9.

A 6-11, I think, could happen because they have some aging core guys.

And McCaffrey, and like we talked about earlier in the show, I'm not

the quarterback Purdy can lift all boats type of guy.

I think he needs Christian McCaffrey as an example to be Christian McCaffrey.

Last year, it wasn't just Connor that he was injured because that's happened before, as you remember.

With the Carolina Panthers, he was either the best running back alive or injured.

Like we've seen that.

And then he went to San Francisco and magically he was just the best running back alive for a couple of years.

And then now last year he reverted back.

And the issues I had was the nature of the injuries.

bilateral Achilles tendonitis, where he was traveling and getting blood work done in Germany or whatever the f ⁇ was going on, as you recall.

And then he comes back and then he's playing in a primetime game.

I believe it was Sunday night football and he attempts a hurdle and his knee just says, nah, bro.

He ends up missing 10 games.

And again, also missing 10 games where he was questionable and expected to play two days before week one, or at least that's how it was being reported.

Then he misses 10 weeks, comes back, and then almost immediately after some pedestrian play over three or four games where he doesn't even score a touchdown, his knee goes on him.

This is a guy with a lot of wear and tear entering an age 30 season.

There's a lot of reasons to say bust at this point.

And if you're a fantasy head, for instance, be very wary where you take this guy in the draft.

That said, maybe you make the case,

Connor, that he's like so many other 49ers we've talked about, where it's like maybe he needed that.

gap year after all that wear and tear and those runs they made and he'll be fresh and ready to go and he's been healthy and active in their off-season program.

So I think McCaffrey being the all-purpose 2,000-yard demigod, is that guy still around?

Maybe not, but can he still be the 1,700-yard guy and be their main touchdown scorer in the offense?

I think that's possible.

The other side is he's hurt forever, and that's part of the equation here, too.

If that's the case, then so San Francisco

has, well, they have...

arguably the easiest schedule in the NFL.

They have a really advantageous rest slate, which I think helps Christian McCaffrey this year, unlike last year, which was the worst net rest, I think, in NFL history, modern NFL history for a schedule.

But the 49ers had 11 picks in the draft, and they didn't address the running back position until the seventh selection, I believe, in the fifth round.

They traded Jordan Mason.

This is the behavior, I think, of a group that feels good about their lead running back, unless Kyle Shanahan's plan is to wait until camp materializes and to clean up on all the veteran refuse when all these guys drafted their rookies.

and then they're going to cut loose a bunch of veteran guys.

If that's the plan, that's fine.

I understand it.

But the 49ers are at least least behaving like Christian McCaffrey is set to come back and have a big season.

Have a backup plan.

And I'm sure they will.

And he's such a master, Shanahan, and his old man was too, of keeping that position group productive, even without a star.

And so I don't think it's curtains for the Niners if McCaffrey is banged up again, but it would be such a huge.

The roadmap from 6-11 back to 11-6, it's McCaffrey on the field most weeks.

I mean, that's

the one thing I think that everyone has going for him is like player health and recuperation from injury.

This isn't Riggins back in the day drinking, you know, cans of beer in the offseason when, you know, the Washington tried to bring him off back to the team.

It's like these guys, their bodies are in such pristine shape that I just trust the rehabilitation process more than I would if it was even 10 years ago.

I trust you in the role of dishwasher.

That's what I trust.

That's big time.

I ran into dad this offseason here in Denver, Ed, Edward.

And he gave me a lot of time.

He's a casual setup from JP in a big spot.

We run in different circles, but sometimes they overlap.

And,

no,

he really kind of gave me a little insight of kind of what went wrong,

what kind of compounded,

how different things are right now, how this offseason has gone, how they noticed what was wrong and were able to fix in their minds something that they don't believe is going to return.

So yeah, I mean, like, obviously he's one of the harder workers in the league.

We all know that.

But I do think that wild number of 30 is one always to keep an eye on with these guys.

I also took him number one in my fantasy league last year.

So he didn't help James' squad very much.

That was one of those all-time, like there's certain guys that you remember, you know,

getting burned by.

And it was him coming off the offensive player of the year and then playing three games.

That one, yeah, but he's done that like four times to fantasy,

right?

Yeah, uh, Connor, who do you got?

Uh, also running back.

Uh, this one not proven in any way, shape, or form, um, but that's the first running back taken, number six overall by the Raiders, Ashton Gentee.

And here's why I think it's a boomer-bust prospect.

Uh, I'm going to tell you a story about the 2024 season, which featured the most yards after contact gained since all these analytic firms firms started tracking the statistic, right?

This was a run game season last year, and all these NFL teams in the draft did exactly what we predicted they were going to do.

And they started drafting running backs.

They started drafting offensive linemen.

They started drafting big people because they watched the Eagles do it and they watched the Eagles win the Super Bowl.

The fallacy there, of course, is that the NFL always corrects itself, right?

There is a revolution and there is a counter-revolution.

And just as much as all these teams were drafting big people on offense, a lot of teams are drafting big people on defense to stop the big people on offense.

So with Genti, it's sort of this interesting kind of bigger 30,000-foot proof of concept for me where he might be a generational player, right?

He might boom for the Raiders and the Raiders might still have a couple more years in that window where you can demolish lighter defenses and everything that we had talked about the last few years, right?

But If it busts, I think it's not just a bust in the fact that like you took a running back sixth overall, which you can question the value of it, but I think it's questioning the idea and the ethos behind it and that kind of lack of awareness of, hey, the NFL is already planning for this, right?

They're already building up to stop the run.

Why didn't you use that on you passed up premier offensive tackles, premier edge rushers, premier pass catchers, all this other stuff because you believed in this?

And so I think it's a pick that has very big consequences outside of it in general.

I like that a lot.

So you're not just talking about the the player, you're talking about an entire way of thinking for our league.

Yeah.

Can I ask you a question, Conman?

We know what I thought of when you mentioned this, and not just in terms of how it impacts the league, but a similar player, just one draft prior, coming out with comps that are just out of this world, right?

Like, if you asked around about Ashton Genti, I had people telling me, like, this is Emmett Smith.

This is LaDanian Tomlinson.

I'm like, whoa, like,

this is blasphemy, guys.

And then people would tell me, like, no, it's not.

That's how good he is.

It reminds me of Marvin Harrison Jr.

the year before.

Like, people were saying, I had an executive tell me, when he walks across the stage, they shouldn't give him a hat.

They should just give him a gold jacket at the draft, which is a great quote.

But also, people are really analyzing his rookie season, which was not bad.

It was almost identical to Larry Fitzgerald's rookie season, almost identical to his dad's rookie season.

But how would you quantify Ashton Genty's season?

Because a lot of people thought Marvin Harrison Jr.

underperformed, right?

Probably Brian Thomas Jr.

had to play in that.

Malik Neighbors had to play in that.

And because of the expectations had to play in that, do you think Ashton Genty will have the same

type of perception that he's going to have to deal with in his rookie year?

I do, and I think that's part of the issue, right?

Where, for example, the Chargers are already so much more suitable to play the kind of ball that the Raiders want to play with Ash and Genti.

The Ravens are more suitable.

Even the Browns, I mean, to some degree, even though that offensive line has an expiration date, are more suitable.

It was yesterday.

What's that?

It was yesterday.

Yesterday.

But are theoretically more suitable to play, and they took one early in the second round, but are theoretically more suitable of playing that kind of ball.

And it's just, I don't know, and we don't know.

It might still take defenses two years to catch up from a weight, power, and strength standpoint.

And the Raiders might be fine.

And Genti might be the perfect weapon when you're facing a lighter nickel defense.

And Geno Smith helps that because you're going to have to respect the pass a little bit more than you did with Gardner Minshew.

But all that said,

I just, I don't know if it's unfair to the player a little bit, right?

He's at that kind of position.

It's this kind of monumental building block draft for the franchise, and that's where you went.

And you better be damn sure that you can pull it off.

I was just going to jump in and say that his underdog season long higher lower projection is 1,075 and a half rushing yards.

And that to me feels like a very pedestrian running back.

I mean, it's a good season for a starting level running back, but with 17 games now, you know, that's not a very high yards per game number.

If he goes just higher than this number, is that a disappointment just because the expectations are so high?

Or

I mean, if he doesn't even meet this number, then it's got to be a failure, right?

It would be, yes.

For what his expectations are,

that's averaging about, what, 60 yards a game.

And that would not be what the Raiders signed up for, certainly.

And if you really believe in the potential of the player and you think the scheme is going to be good enough, you got to bang the higher on that one.

Mark, last thought, and then we're going to move on to our last.

Well, I would just, I mean, I love Connor, the setup

makes complete sense.

And it's a larger picture thing that has more than to do with just Ashton Genty.

But if we are going to have the extreme, and I find it almost annoying, patience that we had with like Kyle Pitts, it's like no matter what happens to Ashton Genty, like next offseason will be like, if the Raiders didn't unlock him and Chip Kelly couldn't unlock him, like this will be the year it happens.

So it's like the player itself should be draped, a rookie should be draped in patience by all of us.

But I think what you said about the schemes and all this business makes complete sense.

The

one thing that I'll just tag this with:

the last running back to get hyped up as

the next big thing was B.

John Robinson.

And his rookie year was good more than great.

Didn't even reach 1,000 yards.

And then last year,

you had the year that I think you signed up for, which was 1,500 yards.

rushing,

15 total touchdowns.

So, yeah, Genty not reaching the heights of what his expectations are coming out of the draft won't mean he's a bust.

But the Raiders are going to feel a little pressure if he doesn't come out of the gate as a stud.

All right.

Last one.

Last one, right?

Me?

Close it out.

I like when you guys are talking about Kyle Pitts.

I like when you're talking about B.

John Robinson because let's go down to the dirty south with the dirty birds and the Falcons.

And I'm going to go with Michael Pennex.

Nice.

I think this is a really, really, really interesting prospect

that everybody was shocked with, that they took an eighth overall.

You look at the success that Jaden Daniels had and Bo Nix had that are picked on each side of him within this draft and how good their rookie years were.

The

pressure of Kirk Cousins being in that locker room as of right now for this season, a player that is not going to help Michael Pennix.

Let's just make that clear.

And I don't think it'll make it difficult on him, but I just...

Most people I talked to in that building believe that Kirk Cousins was not going to be there.

So add the pressure for Michael Pennix early in the season, which week two he faces Brian Flores.

Good luck.

That'll be fun for him.

To where he's going to be looking over his shoulder.

But I do look at what they think he can be.

And talking to people there this offseason, they are over the moon.

Like, obviously, they've reached when they picked him, which is what a lot of people look at, which is why a lot of people are going to be looking at him.

But the schedule makers gave them five primetime games.

Like, do they think Michael Pennix is going to be legit?

Five.

Like, wow.

It's not because of their defense.

They gave it away.

It's a Titan.

You know, the Titans can't get one with the number overall pick, and you have Michael Pennix.

I mean, find that fascinating.

Wow.

Is that the boom thought?

And you look at what he's working with.

And I think there is boom potential.

When you mentioned Bijan Robinson, third in the NFL and rushing this past year, Drake London, fourth in receiving this past year.

Kyle Pitts,

he's there.

Darnell Mooney, obviously a pretty good number two.

There's pieces around him.

What I'm fascinated by is they're changing their offense right now.

Like,

Zach Robinson and company have been in the lab, from what I'm told, because of what they think Michael Pennex can do.

In his first year as a full-time starter, like they believe he sees things better than anybody they've been around, sees things much better than Kirk Cousins does, can get really any blade of grass with the football.

They're changing what they want to do offensively because of these traits they see in Michael Pennix.

That's obviously the boom side of things that they're envisioning for Pennex.

But in terms of like the bus side of things, I still think that's pretty prevalent as well.

And so their window is also very small,

probably for everybody that's involved with the Atlanta Falcons.

And so I just look at the pressure that's going to be on this guy

making, you know, his first season as a starter.

And I think this can go two very different ways for Michael Pennix.

I'd say one quick thing.

Like, if he booms, and if they're doing all this, there's got to be, like, obviously overtly strong belief in what his ceiling can be and who he could be.

But if he booms, I will not listen to any more draft time consternation about a college quarterback being like two years older than people think he should be.

It's like, enough with that.

Like, if he works, who cares?

Like, you went and got the right guy.

Absolutely.

I'm just happy to have a lefty QB back in the the league.

Right, sure.

That was a beautiful thing.

Those

goofy-looking bastards just flinging the ball all backwards and such.

Welcome back, lefties.

South boss.

Any lefties here?

I don't think we have any lefties on the show.

Right here?

You're a lefty?

Natural lefty all the way?

Or did your parents change it?

No.

Like my son is an example.

Bats lefty, plays pool lefty, but

righty.

I don't know if that's ambidextrous, but there is a modified

soup.

I call him a moda.

My son's a modified southpaw.

Insert your, I guess, your crude joke here, but I literally, I can't do anything right-handed.

Like, my right-hand is, you might as well cut it off.

It's totally useless.

Whoa.

Well, you've taken us somewhere we didn't ask for it, but that's okay.

Save it for the next episode of Rolling Thunder, which is out now

over at the Heed the Call Patreon, patreon.com/slash heed the call.

uh we'll be back whoa

thursday with another episode of this program and uh we now say goodbye to james palmer and and we and we clear we clear the deck for a plug and just a reminder that james uh you've said it all

thank you

this is no more questions after that yeah yeah that's i thought that's what you do when the when the show starts and you just go for another 25 minutes

throw a plug in there there james where can they find you where can you find me oh dude everybody else watched so you should watch too go over there to 89 baby kill

the draft coverage all these receivers yeah draft coverage was awesome it was great um we just had greg olson on the other day uh breaking down uh the first five tight ends taken in the draft um which was kind of fun to go through what what greg thought of the fits with some of these guys um

did olson drop any bars on the show

he didn't drop any bars but steve did call call him out because he was like, talking about changing formations and that you got to be selfless as a player and that some guys come off the field and come on the field and you got to be more malleable.

And Steve was just like, shut the F up.

Like, you're not going to come off the field, Greg.

And he was like, yeah, you're right.

I would have never come off the field.

He was like, you are 100% in broadcaster mode.

Like, that is exactly what you're saying because that was not you and weird teammates.

I love that segment on your show because, yeah, when Olson was, you know, saying, you know, Steve, you were always the consummate teammate.

Whether you were getting the ball or not, you were fine.

You were just a little level-headed.

And then it was like that moment, one of my favorite things about Steve Smith, you can't tell if Steve is going to be good-natured about it or if he's going to find Greg Olson and tear his head off.

Yeah.

You just never know.

Well, I don't think Steve knows until he opens his mouth because you can see it turning in his head.

And he's like, I'm not sure which way I'm going to go with this.

And then he was like, I love you, Greg.

And I was like, oh, that could have went south.

Thank God.

All right.

Yeah.

Thanks to everybody for the supersized edition of an off-season Heed the Call app.

We'll be back until next time.

Do what you must.

Yes, of course, Heed the Call.

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