Rule Changes!! And Team Win Totals High-Stakes Competition

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The Heat the Call Podcast

doesn't know how to tell their kids about the NFL's Christmas Day, a tuplet header!

Sorry, boys.

Santa's not coming this year.

Kenny Pickett needs to sling it.

He's got to sling that pill

at Cleveland Brown Stadium.

Welcome to Heed the Call.

I'm Dan Hansis with Mark Sessler.

Aren't children

now, specifically children of anyone that is involved in football or covers football,

aren't they apprised of

this uptick?

This is not a surprise to children of a certain age at this point.

It's going to like they're they've

grown accustomed to this hog-like need for more, more, more.

They are well aware of where the league is taking human life.

And yes,

it is not yet a octuplet header, but we're heading there.

Just like the 12-game season turned into 14, turned into 16, and will turn into 18.

We've now gone from, what, one Christmas Day game

to two

and now three.

That was announced.

One of the many things that came out of the league meetings

in Palm Beach.

Christmas game day.

Poor Colleen.

This from Dov Kleinman.

Other places too, but you know, Dav is our go-to source at this point for all NFL news.

The NFL is planning a Christmas triple header this year after the success of last year's two-game Christmas.

Of course, it's going to be a success.

Dav, the NFL, is officially the king of Christmas.

One little tick, because it is a Frank.

Who used to be the king of Christmas?

Well, literally Jesus.

Yeah, well, right.

Well, but that's, you know, he's been shoved aside.

He goes.

Yeah.

You know, he always talked about he's taken on the suffering of others.

So he's like, hey,

Dav Kleinman?

Dob Kleiman, specifically.

Yeah.

He's the one I'm thinking of.

But, you know, this is another.

Another man from Israel.

This is another betrayal.

That's true.

Another betrayal of

Jesus.

Nice work, Sports.

We're just going to shove you aside.

Much less Santa Claus and the mythology and the trees and all the childhood games.

Three games.

Three.

Oh, those poor, all the people in the control room.

Rich Eisen.

All the others.

You're not going anywhere.

You have a...

How are they going to break that down?

So I guess

that's a 10 a.m.

game, right?

Yeah.

Pacific Coast time, 1 p.m.

Eastern.

Maybe because it's fancy, it's a noon game.

So let's say it's noon Eastern, and then they'll do one at, what, 4 Eastern?

And then, you know,

they'll bang you with the primetime game, too.

That's going to go over really well

in a lot of houses.

No, it's not.

Like,

it's, you know, you.

It is technically Thursday this year, and so they're saying it's, you know, Thursday night football, but

as if they're going to retract this ever.

Like, um, that's, we've heard that one before.

Yeah, we have.

On the old show, back.

Oh, the only reason it's this way is because just the day of the week it fell on.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

You almost have to admire

just

the audacity of it all.

Like, I'm that like David Stern is rolling over in his grave.

I mean, what that man built, he made it his career and life's purpose to establish the NBA as a global brand and with Christmas being the jewel.

And now here we are.

Are they even going to be playing games for the NBA at this point?

I mean,

I wouldn't because it's egg in the face because then you look at the ratings after

and you've been

right.

They just take a sword and stick it right into the NBA's throat in front of everyone.

But like the point being, I guess in that tweet, it was like, after last year's success, by the way, they're going to get huge numbers.

They're going to do a huge number, as Mike Francesca would say, for all three of these games.

So does that mean they will do four?

And we'll eventually get to eight.

We'll see.

There's no clear, there's no way to truly know, Mark, where the limit is.

It's like that old Bradley Cooper film, Limitless.

That's where we're at right now in terms of the expansion on the weekly calendar of the pro football product.

It was the anomaly that we've mentioned a a hundred times that the Chiefs played on every single day last year.

I think it was except Tuesday or something.

That will be happening to multiple times.

Oh, the ratings, they were really good.

Well, we'll have to do it again and then add a little bit more.

Yes, Justin.

And because of the way the calendar works, next year Christmas will be on a Friday, and the following year it'll be on a Saturday, and then it'll be on a Sunday.

Like, when Christmas is on a Sunday,

every game will be on Christmas.

When Christmas falls on Sunday, they'll actually do a double header.

But what I mean by that is each team will play twice.

We're going to get 32 games on Christmas Sunday in a few years.

So just get ready.

Don't spread seeds and ideas.

And that'll correspond with the 18-game schedule because they'll have two games in one weekend.

It's perfect.

Then we're going to have the people be like, those guys are complaining about

it isn't even really, because I accept at this point, but it's the Jessicas of the world that are like, you know, looking forward to this holiday.

And then, you know, Justin's strapped to a desktop computer for 14 straight hours.

You know, Dan and Mark are so bitter.

No, no, no, no, no.

We are thinking of the Jessicas and the Colleen Wolves and

our sons and all the other people and the men and women in the control rooms and the trucks.

And as you see,

as you said before, all the others, because there's too many positions, we can't even like, you know, there's flocks of individuals.

A triple header.

I mean, what are the, I mean, Thanksgiving.

What is that?

How's Thanksgiving going to level up?

Because now Christmas is tied Thanksgiving.

And NFL can't let that stand.

They now have to, like,

like, there's different divisions.

It's like Lumen, Corp, and Severance.

Like the Thanksgiving division of NFL's corporate office, like, holy shit, Christmas.

They've tied us.

What are we going to do?

So now we just wait until the schedule release.

Which

you got Black Friday knocking on the boss's door.

So,

hey, boss, you got a minute?

Two games.

Just get me two.

Hey, boss, it's me.

New Year's Eve.

Best day of the year.

New Year's Eve at midnight.

Hey, boss, New Year's Day here.

I heard you were just talking to New Year's Eve.

What can you do for me?

Welcome to Heed the Call,

where we do love football.

We love football.

And we're going to prove it with a show that...

We love football.

Is that Cadell, by the way?

It is, isn't it?

No, I think that's the actor from Modern Family who was on the draft stage.

Oh, that dude.

Oh, the Chiefs.

The Chiefs.

He loves the Chiefs.

Yeah.

What's his name?

Modern Family Guy loves the Chiefs.

I'm Kirby.

I love the Chiefs.

All right, coming up on today's show, we are going to, they put him out a

hot minute ago last week.

Mark was on his mysterious vacation, so we stuck a pin in it.

The over-unders were released on

different places, and we are going to take a crack at it.

We're going to gamify it, Sess Dog.

Me v you.

This is like Apollo Creed versus Rocky Balboa here um with justin serving as the judge and we're gonna we're gonna have an over under off a little bit later but first let us uh get you caught up on everything that happened at the league meetings in palm beach and the latest with all the voting and all that other good stuff and to do that let's welcome in a great friend a man that understands the league, the man that sees the league in a way that we couldn't possibly, a man who will be very busy himself now on Christmas Day, Mr.

James Pum.

How are you guys doing?

Good to see you.

What's up?

You good?

I'm good, guys.

Jay, really good.

I'm really good.

We got

Friday here in Colorado.

The eyes of the NFL will be here in Boulder.

The eyes of Mark's favorite community, the movie community, will be traveling to Boulder for 10 years for Sundance.

But before that, we're going to Boulder for Shador Sanders and Travis Hunter.

I'm excited to be there on Friday.

But everybody's coming to town, guys.

I'm excited.

What a great segue to our news drop for today.

I would take Shador Sanders to make sure that I have the first stab at getting Deion Sanders as my next head coach in Tennessee, assuming Callahan does not work out.

The Titans have had five head coaches since 2010.

You know, Deion would inevitably leave Colorado for one reason and one reason only, to coach his son.

If you can get Shador, who do you think you're going to get as the next head coach?

And you don't even have to come in here with a whole lot of different leverage and negotiation tactics.

Just show him a picture of the quarterback, and it's Shador.

I, for one, don't know what the f Emmanuel Acher is talking about on the facility.

So we're going to presuppose in this scenario that the Tennessee Titans with the number one pick,

they select Shador Sanders, who some people don't even think is a first-round pick, period, but you'll use the number one overall pick.

And

it doesn't ensure that you have a great quarterback.

You don't have a, quote, winner, unless, of course, you then get his dad to be the head coach.

So as part of this plan, I'm just talking to myself.

I'm trying to put it together, yeah.

You take Sanders, number one, you flail without his dad as the head coach, so you fire Brian Callahan.

It's probably a tough plan for old BC.

And then

with an impossible amount of leverage that one cannot even ascertain how you could have more leverage, Deion Sanders says, okay, I'll be your head coach.

He leaves college.

And then once you pair the head coach with the sun,

the Titans or whomever are destined for greatness, that sounds very sound.

We need to get to April 24th already.

It's record time.

Fill that new fill that new fill that new stadium pre-sales on

seat licenses.

It sounds like a good segment on television, though, doesn't it?

We're talking about it.

Yeah,

but it lacks all facts.

No, I mean, here's a variety of facts that go with it.

My understanding is I think Dion's going to be a bit like

Archie was with Eli and maybe play a role.

But I don't see him like continuing to meddle at all with Shador after the draft.

I think he goes back to what he's doing, which is a brand new contract at CU,

which also

would be quite the hurdle as well.

And I think we're also like, we're just eliminating the

there are plenty of teams I've spoken with that do not have a first round grade on Shador Sanders, yet he will be the first overall pick.

A player that is many believe

tough, throws with anticipation, is accurate, but lacks literally zero wow traits.

But he will again go number one.

And then you're going to kick Brian Callahan out the door, who, let's be honest, thrown into a pretty terrible situation in his first opportunity as a head coach, has worked with some outstanding quarterbacks in his past,

was part, and a very, very big part, because I remember covering this at length, in picking Joe Burrow and going part of the process and what you're looking for in a number one overall pick.

I don't think Shador honestly checks any of the boxes that he saw in his participation in getting those boxes checked with Joe Burrow.

And he's worked with PayPal.

And he's done all, I mean, we're just going to kick him out the door.

And you're just just going to, Mike Borganzi is a, I know Mike very well.

He is a level-headed individual.

Yes, he looks like a Kennedy, but at the same time, he makes very level-headed decisions.

Ara, ara.

I won't be making this pick.

Ara, ara.

To go back to what you were saying at first, because I think when this started, it was like, oh, Shador goes number one.

And it's going to be like an Archie Manning situation where Dion is very plugged in on who is allowed to pick him and who isn't.

And lately, it's been like, oh, Dion is opening up the net and more teams are in.

But do you, have you heard that there are teams that absolutely would not be allowed from Deion's angle to pick them up?

Yeah,

you can only do the Peyton or the Eli thing

if you're

leveraged to do it.

And if we're hearing that there are teams that don't even see him as a first-round talent, I don't think all of a sudden you're going to be playing Kingmaker and deciding who goes where and who can have whom.

I think because Deion is such a

cult of personality, I think people just assume he's going to have that type of sway, but the player is who the player is and he might not be the player that some people expect him to be.

I don't think he is.

I haven't, I mean, obviously quarterbacks get overdrafted.

That's just the nature of the position.

And there's what, five, five teams that need a quarterback in the top seven, roughly?

Like, I mean, it's so when you look at it that way, obviously Shador is going to go higher than

he is on teams' boards.

That's just the way it works.

But I do think, Dan, what you're saying is is very similar to this is Marvin Harrison Jr.

last year.

When Marvin didn't work out at all, it was because teams told him when he said, what do you need to see from me?

Nine different teams he asked that question to, nine teams said, we don't need to see anything from you.

You check every single box on and off the field, character, whatever it is, talent, all that stuff.

And now we're seeing players going, oh, like Marvin Harrison Jr.

didn't do it.

Like, I don't need to work out for teams.

Guess what?

In the eyes of teams that I've talked to, that is not working.

And that's the comparison I make with this because the talent isn't there.

You need to have, as my buddy Steve Smith Sr.

said, you need to have the junior on the name to be able to say that when you're Marvin Harrison Jr.

And so, like,

that's a little bit of the comp I have is some of the players coming into this draft think much more highly of themselves than the teams that are going to be selecting them.

Well said.

All right.

Let's head to Palm Beach.

And we'll start where we must.

The tush push.

The understanding was that we might have a resolution here this week, but no, it has been tabled until May.

And yes, the tush push was pushed.

And

the NFL owners decided not to hold a vote.

There is considerable support for banning it, but not enough.

You need 24 out of 32 owners to vote to ban it.

And Kaylin Cowler reported that the tush push was a dead heat per a source in the room, 16, 16 16 in an informal poll, and it did not go to a vote, will need to be rewritten to more generally about pushing players and not just about the player taking the snap immediately at the snap.

Now, what does that mean?

This is something I'm just learning now, and I'm about to throw some rog sound because he speaks about it.

Up until 2004, there were rules in the NFL rule book prohibiting certain

actions of pushing of players that when that got stripped out of the rule book, it opened for plays like the tush push to be legal plays.

Is this the angle that's taken?

It's going to be, it seems to me that the angle of the teams that feel strongly against this are going to play the player safety angle, even if there may not be the data to back it right now that it is a dangerous play, and they're going to play this angle of, hey, that old rule that was in the book, let's get that back in.

Here's Roger Goodell talking about it from Florida.

Well, listen, I think we're not looking at this as

the context of one team.

We're looking at is a particular play that may have an increased potential for injuries.

As I said before, one of the things we're looking back is the rule we had prior to 2004 that

didn't allow a lot of that polar push

anywhere on the field.

And some of those hits happen outside of a tush push.

And that's one of the things we want the committee to go back and look at with our health and safety team to sort of to look at those incidents and should our rule be broader than just a tush-bush and that's something they're going to bring back to the the membership in may and of course it is the packers who uh brought this up as a potential rule change they are asking to reinstate the language that had been wiped from the rules in 2004 and this discussion will pick up again in may i was kind of hoping that this was going to be the end of uh of the line one way or the other i've shared my opinions on this.

I know Mark and Connor, you've shared yours.

James, you're a Philadelphia native, so I know where you stand on this.

I don't really know how much longer we have to have that type of conversation, but some type of resolution that I would welcome.

How about you, James?

Yeah, I agree with the resolution.

I understand the heated debate.

I understand, I would love to have, like, I was going to say a six-pack, but it's Mike Vrabel.

So

I'd love to split a 30-back.

Yeah, 30-back

and go over this because he has some of the best quotes on it.

Like, you're just going to tell me that he's like, you know what, Sninks?

Like, Lamar Jackson in space running the ball.

That sucks the cover.

Let's ban that.

Like, he literally

went up and said that.

Like, the thing that I'm curious about is

this had really

no

support a season ago.

And in the last year, nobody's been really hurt doing it.

And the NFL is using the safety aspect, in my opinion, to say well nobody's been hurt the data or data i'm not sure dan said data

i always go data yeah data guy data from goonies or is it data from goonies i don't know which one it is but cross-check i'm not sure what what data or data from goonies would say about the safety of this um but there has been no proof that it's a dangerous play when they say it's potentially could be a catastrophic play.

To me, that's like, you know, it was a catastrophic play: Alex Smith dropping back and getting tackled by Kareem Jackson and J.J.

Watt, and his leg spiraling in a spiral fracture and almost losing his leg.

Are we going to not drop back as quarterbacks anymore?

Like, that was like, they were just like, you know what I mean?

You're waiting for a catastrophic play in terms of injury to, and you think that may happen when it hasn't happened yet.

It didn't have any support a season ago.

The idea is to get ahead of it.

Yeah.

This thing I'm seeing with some of the both sides of all this is like,

and a little on my radar, it's like

you'll make the point, like, oh, this is only run on 1.1 percentage of all plays, blah, blah, blah.

And using that as an example of why are we targeting this.

But then you're also saying there's no data to back up that people get hurt because it's not being run that often.

The people that are studying the game that are concerned about it are saying, hey, it hasn't happened yet, but the sheer mass and the bodies and the strategy of it is basically setting up for something to happen that they want to head off.

Now, that could also be being used as an excuse.

And I am not naive to that, that people that want this out of the league bang the player safety thing, and that could get it done.

That is a reality that certainly could be in play here, but that's just the other thing.

I would start here that when this gets, when a rule like this,

I am a little surprised that it got to 16, 16 based on where we were a year ago.

But I think that there was such

fervent and vibrant conversation around it.

We talked about, we heard about heated debate around the conversation.

And I think that you hear the coaches saying it's not a football play.

And that 2004 rule, it wasn't just a tush-push type of thing they were trying to prevent.

It was players downfield, maybe at the goal line, where other players were pushing that player into the end zone.

And they were trying to prevent that stuff from happening at different points around the field.

It wasn't just about this.

I mean, my one thing about the Eagles specifically, and it's specific to them, because the Bills do this too, but they do it in their own different way where Josh Allen picks a lane where he wants to go based on, you know, what he sees.

The Eagles really, is it the push?

Like, the push is part of it, and I get that.

They've converted a lot where the push doesn't even happen, in all honesty.

That's my thing, is the Eagles right now have a one-of-a-kind special offensive line that translated post-Jason Kelsey still.

Like, that's this

special superpower that the Eagles have built through their draft.

Like, Like, the push itself is not the only reason that this play is successful.

That said, like, I think, like, the idea, that's where I get annoyed.

Like, you've built up a strength and we're trying to get away from it.

They would still be strong, by the way, in a goal-line situation.

They would still succeed in these plays to some degree, minus the push.

The reason I brought up the one-year difference is like there wasn't even a proposal a year ago.

I'm curious if the Eagles don't win the Super Bowl and don't use it to

such an advantage or to success, whichever whichever word you want to use throughout nationally televised games down the stretch that we're not here.

Because we saw Josh Allen get stuffed on it.

I was standing on the sideline at the AFC Championship game.

And so

my curiosity on it is,

like Lane Johnson.

We'll get to that in a minute.

Like Lane Johnson and guys, and they hate us because they ain't us.

You're upset because we've become really, really good at this.

And then we just want a Super Bowl.

And I'm curious if the Super Bowl

to it.

And it has a great nickname.

Who did it?

I like Brotherly Shove better.

Yeah, that's a good one.

Here's here.

Let's move on.

I think, by the way, one of the reasons why it jumped up all of a sudden is everything in this league, and it's so funny, so much of the rule changes are dictated by what happens in one month in January in the playoffs.

And like I brought up on our previous show, the Washington, Philadelphia game with that, you know, became farce near the goal line.

I think that put it on a lot of people's radars in a different way.

True.

I think what happened with, you mentioned the Josh Allen sneak, he did get the first down.

He got it, but they don't have a way to spot the ball and they missed it.

And it led to, in large part, to the Bills once again falling short in the AFC.

And as a result of that,

alleluia.

Here it comes.

The NFL has announced that Sony's Hawkeye technology will be used next season to electronically measure first downs.

The chain crew is remaining on the sideline as a backup, but a new era is officially underway.

And I ranted about this at great length right after that playoff game that I cannot believe that something so consequential, like we're still using the chains and why can't we use the technology?

And I remember with Connor, Mark, the conversation was they had done, you know, it'd be too expensive, the NFL, which just made $7 trillion off the Christmas Day games or and everything else.

Like, no, figure it out.

And sure enough,

they have figured it out because everyone made a big stink about it in the playoffs.

The playoffs cause rule changes every single year.

I feel bad for the rule changes.

I feel bad for the original chain gang guys.

Like, what kind of somber faces are we going to see walking in to stadiums on Sundays and Thursdays and Mondays, just going

and just feeling just no sense of purpose at all?

And really, the only thing keeping them as a backup is we oftentimes see these guys get obliterated on the screen.

We don't need them as backups.

If we're going to have them as backups, just keep them in the locker.

We're talking about safety.

These elderly gentlemen oftentimes break a hip, a leg.

They get destroyed on the sideline.

If we care about safety, eliminate the backup of the chain gang and just put those chains in

the Hall of Fame and the index card and move forward.

That's very empathic of you.

Yeah, thank you.

In other news, the NFL also,

this is another good job.

They did a good job with some of these rules.

The expanded replay assist has been approved only to pick up flags, not put them down.

Now, does that mean,

and this is what I hope, Mark, does that mean

late hits?

Quarterback over the middle, they could pick up those flags now as a marketing.

I think it's like face mask, you you know, as tripping, horse collar,

you know,

some of like the roughing the kicker stuff that like to our eyes, our eyes are burning.

Defensive, I think it could it this probably along with the previous rule change probably strips away 45 like mind-melting annoying scenarios that we deal with during the season.

So I like this a lot.

By far the thing that I get the most frustrated about as a football fan, other than just being a New York Jets fan, is the defenseless receiver calls and the quarterback protection calls that are rooted in a good place and, again, player safety.

However, the game is moving at such a fast rate of speed that they miss so many calls.

And these are calls that wipe out fourth and 14s and turn them into first and tens 15 yards down the field, type of things that could swing games.

Anything we could do, and I also thought the NFL has done a really good job with, and you saw it more than ever in the 2024 season, is how quickly they would clean up certain things.

If that continues to be the case and they just take it a little bit further with certain plays, I'm all for it, and I think that's the most consequential thing to come out of these meetings and rule changes.

Yeah, two quick things I want to ask you guys.

One, well, second one, I'll ask you.

First one, I'll just say, speed is always one of the biggest conversations in this.

How does it make sure the pace of play continues?

That's always one of the biggest debates.

And making sure that this doesn't slow down the pace of play has always been one of the reasons that this thing gets slowned down.

And they're doing it faster.

And they're doing a better job in New York.

and they're having the ability to go through this process much quicker, which is allowing,

I think, us heading in a better direction.

Do you think though, and I'm asking the group,

will there be more flags thrown because you believe that it's easier to pick up a flag that you were incorrect on than not throwing the flag at all?

And then you can't make a change?

Well, I think

if you're an official, it's still your judgment call on national television being reversed by something in theory smarter than you so you're not going to go hog wild but i always feel with with anything that changes um any rule changes there's like a two-week wave and then it normalizes yes

the the jawan

taylor

get back situation that went on for a while yeah

what's up the one the one thing this rule change rule change

rule change doesn't fix is like on that primetime vikings rams game when Sam Donald got his face mask nearly ripped off his head and there was no flag thrown.

They're not going to be able to

get ad pennies.

But you know what?

I feel like that was just such an egregious miss.

I feel like usually those things are caught.

That was just, that was, you know, that kind of, you could,

we don't need to butterfly affect it.

That might have cost them the NFC North.

Might have.

Do you think they would have won it?

These NFL officials will in the offseason converse with line judges in the world of tennis because they oftentimes get overruled.

And if this is a discussion about confidence or pressing forward after being corrected by said computer, Mark's talking about.

Yeah, humility.

It's a lesson in humility.

We all could

dive into that.

Yeah.

Finally, the other kind of big time notable rule change here.

The NFL owners have now passed a rule that both teams will be allowed to possess the ball in overtime in the regular season.

The original proposal was for a 15-minute overtime.

That now has been amended to 10 minutes.

So 10 minutes, and this is more aligned with the playoff rules, and we like this, Mark.

I know we talked about this.

Both teams now get the ball regardless.

A little too late for the Atlanta Falcons a few years back, but

better late than never.

I'll say a few quick things and throw it to James, but I think to your point on game runtime, like it was proposed as 15 and they make it 10.

I like that for regular season.

Sam Monson, who is a friend of the show, made a point that part of the whole thing, you don't want ties.

That's why we're doing this, right?

But like this actually increases the chance for ties in the regular season, I think, to give both teams a possession.

The third thing that came to my mind was like, what if you're one of these Shanahan-S teams that runs like a 10-play 10 or a 14-play, 10-minute drive, and you just run out of overtime?

In that situation, you win.

I like that.

If you can pull off the very rare 10-minute drive.

Wait, how does that work?

You win.

If the the rule is both teams need to possess, though, right?

That was my first question.

But if you can run out the entire clock, or even if, let's say, you get it nine minutes and 43 seconds, then

the other team is left in a really rough place.

But then they do get the possession.

They get banged.

But what if 17 seconds in that case?

But a masterful drive where you kick the field goal at triple zeros.

What I read over and over was you win.

Do you get an end time down?

I don't know.

You don't, you don't.

That would be the one way that you can say

have all this.

You get to tush-push

if you want to.

No.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Somebody, my head is thinking of that Cincinnati and Denver game where Sean Payton was trying to run out the clock, right?

He was trying to run out, like just hold the ball and run out the clock in overtime because a tie would have got them into the

playoffs.

So yeah, I think marks on to something in terms of clock management within the extra frame is going to be,

wow, even more important to some people that can't do it and more of an advantage to the people that can.

Let's see.

The Lions' proposal to eliminate an automatic first down for defensive holding and illegal contact did not pass.

The Lions' proposal to allow wildcard teams to be seated higher than division champions if they have a better record.

That's been tabled like the Tush Push for a future meeting.

It would have not had enough votes today, just like the Tush Push.

And

the NFL has passed the Steelers proposal, allowing teams to have direct contact with players during the legal tampering period through one phone call or Zoom call.

They can do this with five free agent players.

Previously, teams could only communicate with agents, not the players.

And finally, touchbacks on kickoffs will now bring the ball to the 35-yard line.

No vote at this time on the on-site kick modification.

It will be picked back up in May.

That one, at least, at the very least, another thing that kind of got exposed in the playoffs.

So I'm surprised they didn't take care of that.

You've got to make the on-side kick available outside the fourth quarter for teams that are trailing by a lot and need to make hay,

like the Kansas City Chiefs in Super Bowl 59.

Are you guys surprised that the

seeded playoff thing even gets out of this meeting for another conversation?

I thought that that would have pushed up against the traditional nature of most coaches to even have that be continued as a conversation.

Yeah,

I found that one pretty wild.

Honestly, that it's tabled is interesting to me.

I wanted to go back to the Lions' first proposal, which was the no first down, right, on defensive holding, or

they were

hands down, clear-cut, far and away, like quadruple the league in this penalty

compared to everybody else, which to me, I find it very comical that they're like, man, we're terrible at this.

We need to change that.

And the Packers were one of the best teams in the NFL at defending the push-push this past year, yet they were like, we need to get rid of that.

Very different thought process on those.

And then the other one I wanted to ask everybody was, instead of moving the ball to the 35 on the kickoff, if it goes into the end zone, I would have preferred just moving the kicker back five yards and having them, you know what I mean?

Like

I think

that would have been better where it's just harder to get to the end zone and then you're just going to return it.

Like, I just find that to be an easier solution.

Like, I don't know, if the big kid that has a fake birth certificate is hitting bombs all day, like move him further back.

Like, and he can't hit the bomb.

Like, and so why didn't you just move the kickoff back to get more returns by five?

I know the propaganda machine of the league really celebrated what a success the new kickoff, that dynamic kickoff was.

I thought it was a little clunky in operation overall with the kicking box and still a ton of touchbacks.

But I guess the data backed up that it was a player safety success.

Data, data, data.

But, you know,

I will make a little note on that.

Talking to teams doing my draft work and kind of asking around, these guys, like, say, an Isaiah Bond or one of these speedsters

that can be used in special teams, does their value increase in teams' mind with more increased kicks getting returned?

Could that change a couple of these like type of returners in terms of their value in this upcoming draft with this change that has crossed the mind of some teams going, all right, special teams is more of an active play now,

again, with another change.

How do we view this guy impacting us in two phases of the game as opposed to just being our fourth wide receiver like Isaiah Bond would be?

Ceci, your thoughts?

The new kickoff role, I mean, compared to where we were a year ago and what I was imagining,

two words like wet fart.

James Palmer, underdog compadre,

you've said it all.

What do you got coming up?

What's going on?

What's cooking?

Oh, what's cooking?

We're doing so many receiver breakdowns steve smith and i over at 89 and i mean they're they're they're getting some some serious heat our um i'll just say it our roast of t-mac who many people believe is the number one receiver in this draft uh is getting a lot of headway to where even uh the wide receiver coach at the university of arizona was commenting on it this week uh and ripping steve apart to where we will have a video coming out of steve's response oh that's good that's the type of stuff you want that's content yeah baby that's hashtag content that's that's that's That's big right there because I do believe in him.

You need that, Sess.

Sess, we got to get somebody ripping your ass.

Yeah, we can manufacture that.

While he's ripping Steve, saying he needs to watch more film of his player and digest it better, he also called Steve his favorite player when he was in the league.

That's because people are afraid of Steve Smith.

That's a well-known thing.

People are afraid of Steve Smith.

They don't want Steve to

destroy them like he's destroyed so many defensive backs through the years, sometimes with his fists.

Facts.

That's met with fissy feelings.

That's meant to be.

There's always a qualifier when someone deigns to criticize Steve to make sure it's done with a dollop, a large dollop of respect.

Yeah, from a distance.

Yes.

That's a good place to be.

When you get to a place where anyone that comes after you has to do those type of qualifiers, you've done a good job.

Yeah.

Well, I believe protecting.

He starts it with, he's not going to catch Stray's ear.

I'm going to say it right to his face.

And then we went off.

It was really something.

All right, so check out the 89 podcast with Steve Smith Sr.

and James Palmer.

And buddy, please, let's

nice trophy work.

Let's meet up again soon.

I miss you guys.

Does anybody have any brand traffic?

Has anybody purchased a bidet yet?

It's usually the way Dan and I's text messages start with some sort of bidet discussion.

Yeah, I wonder because you were on a vacation, didn't have access to your home toilet if you were just using

a garden hose or something.

But yeah.

Yeah.

do you have a do you have a travel one probably not not yet

is the key word not yet you've you've re-ignited my my interest i'm going to go back and do another search on that cleanliness is next to godliness

yeah james palmer ladies and gentlemen

uh hey we're about to get into our 2025 win totals conversation a reminder that on underdog you can already lock in your season-long nfl higher lowers for 2025 before the draft All I'm saying is, if you think your team is going to go higher than their win total, your quarterback is probably going to go higher than his passing touchdowns line.

I don't know if I believe what I just said there.

That doesn't necessarily mean it.

His total touchdowns line, maybe.

There's a lot of factors, but you know, these are things that you think about.

Your running back is probably going to go higher than his rushing yards line, maybe, Justin.

And you can build a pick'em entry out of these today on Underdog.

Just scan the QR code on your screen to get started or sign up with the code HTC, and new users can receive up to $1,000 in bonus credits when they deposit for our U.S.

audience only.

You know how you win these games is you gotta

be smart.

You gotta be smart.

It's like how people over on the baseball side of things, they're finding all the guys that swing the torpedo bats that the Yankees have popularized and say, oh, I'm gonna bang me over on those guys, like in terms of total bases, home runs and the like.

You gotta outthink the rest of the public, Mark, to get the guap.

Yeah, and I think you get in there now.

You know,

you don't wait till everyone's doing this four months from now when like, you know, Sally and like your aunt and four other people are just all jumping.

Yeah.

You get in now and you kind of, you show that prescient ability to see the future.

Oh, hell yeah.

Impress your friends.

Finally earn your father's respect only on underdog.

All right, let's get into it.

So here's a fun game, Mark.

We're going to do a seven-game series here, okay?

Okay.

My goal is to sweep you because that would be utter humiliation.

On the flip side, you could sweep me, and I would be absolutely ashamed of myself.

I would throw myself up.

I wouldn't let that go for some time.

Yeah, I would throw myself at the feet of my own father, Keith Hanses, and say, Dad, I got swept by Mark Sessler in the over-under

segment at the back end of that show.

in early April.

And he'd go, Danny, I can't respect you anymore as a son.

At least I have Kevin, my other son.

I myself am going for your father's respect because I think in my case, like that, that's probably

taking some dings.

I'm swapping you out for Mark.

He's my new second son.

Those are the things.

That would put our show on the rocks, though.

That would be.

On the flip side, if I sweep you, I'll go

over to that leafy town in Connecticut, knock on the door right up to Ed Sesla's house, and I'll go, hey, Eddie, not since the big IPM merger have we been so excited because I just swept your son's ace.

And then he'll say, you are my new son.

Just to, just to, for your budgeting for your trip, does not live in New Hampshire, not in Connecticut.

But secondly, I don't think it would be a hard sell.

Literally, all I have to do is come up to the door and he's like, just knock on the door once.

You have replaced Mark.

Come on in.

Can I just clarify the stakes of this for our audience?

Whoever wins becomes the other person's father's

favorite son.

You replace the other as the favored son within their family structure.

So those are, yeah.

Like often my sons, I'll tell them to do something and I'll be like, oh, you know, if you do something, I'll give you something.

And then they've caught up to, they've caught wind of it that they'll be like, oh, what do I get?

And then I'll say, my respect.

And they hate that.

Okay.

But so we're more than just respect.

It's actually the replacement.

Okay.

Without further ado.

Okay.

All right.

I'm going to play some fun little.

That's nice.

I like that.

So Justin's picking the teams here.

Justin is picking.

All right.

Here, we should make it clear that

Mark and I have not seen any of the over-unders that were that are out there.

Not totally true because Justin misread a text that I sent out that I thought was very clear a day ago saying, hey, let's not look at the over-unders and then do it live on the show.

Justin then posted all of them in bold writing on our rundown, apparently.

Mark, who says he's not a Browns fan, opened up the dock and immediately scanned his eyes down and said he only looked at the Cleveland Browns.

And that is true because it was the kind of thing when you open, like when you're a kid and you open up like a football magazine, you go to like AFC Central, like, what is is the browns record then i'll dig into the rest of it so i really but i saw that i did the one positive i took out of uh justin's error there in production was

uh again that that browns fan he's still living deep within you that your eyes like the like the teenage boy uh that that you once were shooting straight down to cleveland because you want to see where they come i i believe in them more than um the desert does apparently and let's well while we're here if people aren't oh like you know how jordan pretends she doesn't understand all this stuff or sweet jordan rodrigue like what is the Cleveland Browns over-under for 2025?

Well based on that because there's different things out there, but based on what you sent, Justin, it was 4.5, I believe.

4.5.

Which was the lowest, and it was not tied with anyone else, if I'm not mistaken.

It was kind of...

Let's try to sound like Shark's mark here and don't say 4.5.

Just say 4.5.

4.5.

That is correct.

It was the lowest and not tied with anyone else.

So

spoiler when we guess some of these teams here, nobody's at 4.5.

So you could lock, if you're somebody, you could lock in the Browns at four and a half, bang me over, and then they get Kirk Cousins, and then they win, you know, eight.

You lock them in now, right?

Yeah, okay.

All right, but that's neither here nor there.

All right, now that we understand it, Justin will throw out a team at random, and then Mark and I will both make our guess, and then

blah, blah, blah, first to four.

All right, let's start with a fun one because this team went 14 and three last year, but they have a new quarterback, the Minnesota Vikings where do you think their win total landed

okay

and again this is not necessarily mark what we think they're going to win personally it's what we think the number was set at by the sharks um i am going to say obviously even if

they did return

Their incumbent quarterback Sam Darnold the number wouldn't be near 14

In

I will put it at with a rookie quarterback.

I think they're going to ding it.

I'm going to go.

How do we do this without influencing each other?

Should we write it down first and then talk?

Or we could text you, Justin.

No, here we go.

I'm going to go...

I don't have a paper or a pen, though.

I'm going to go nine and a half.

Okay, so we'll just say it.

Yeah, just say it.

Well, that's.

We'll take turns going who starts.

We'll do it that way.

It's not fun if I pick the same thing as you, but that's that's where my mind was.

We'll take turns so you get to go first.

Yeah.

I'll play ball here.

I think it's drastically lower, but

I'll go 10 and a half, although I think you're probably closer, Dan.

I'll go 10 and a half.

And Justin, just for clarity, is if you're under versus over, does that matter in terms of the schematics here?

Like, well, it's not prices right, though, right?

I mean...

All right, what is the answer?

In our game, whoever's closer closer is closer, and the answer is eight and a half.

Oh,

Dan's up one-nothing.

Oh, and Sessler, here I cut the New Hampshire baby.

We know where this is going.

All right, now, Mark, you get to go first now, so it's even you.

Like, the one thing I can tell my dad is, I don't have a gambling problem, so I'm not great at this.

So, father, I have many problems.

Gambling is not one of them.

Let's stick in the NFC North and go with a team that went 15 last year.

I'm obviously talking about the Detroit Lions.

I just, I think these, I think whenever they see that record, they want to

hey, give him the music so he gets stressed out.

Oh, yeah.

Got to build that anxiety.

I am still a good team, very much intact.

A lot went right in terms of the regular season record

to play ball with the desert.

I'm going to go 11.5.

I think that's too high.

Hmm.

I think it's too high.

Maybe it's not.

I think they're going to like us now.

They won that many games when they were all banged up.

They did lose their coaching staff.

I'm going to sit right at 11.

Well, you could sit right at 11, knowing that all of these are half-game.

Does that change?

Oh, so I should have to go.

Oh, you're saying

you have to to go either 10 and a half or.

Alright.

You know what?

10 and a half.

10 and a half is correct.

Oh,

daddy, I'm coming home, baby.

Oh, I'm like the Mets down 2-0 to the Sox in 86.

We're heading to Boston.

Wow.

Great reference.

Not over my head.

Not six years before I was born.

Okay.

Let's look at a team

that has a new head coach.

Okay, go ahead.

Let's see how the new head coach bumped.

Let's look at.

I mean, we'll do a few in a row that have a new head coach.

New head coach bump for a team that went 5-12 last year.

We're just doing NFC North win totals, the Chicago Bears.

We were only doing NFC North?

No, I just, that was the next one that jumped out to me.

Totally random, but they're an interesting one, new head coach.

All right, Chicago Bears.

But it is interesting because, again, people are gassing up the Bears.

What was their record last year?

5-12.

5-12.

I think they're going to get a little.

They're going to get a Ben Johnson bump.

They're going to get the Caleb Williams Assumption bump.

They're going to get, oh, now their offensive line is fixed bump.

bump but then there's gonna be some sharks that are like eh probably not

so that's gonna drive it back down I'm gonna set the

I'm gonna set this one at

seven and a half

That's good.

That's a good answer.

Well, based on the division they're in, I don't know if that's how they do this, but

I'm going to go

six and a half.

The answer is eight and a half.

No, baby!

Yes!

Oh, the disgrace!

I am in hot water.

You've got to pick it up, Mark.

Now you have to go from...

I loathe to bring it up, but I must.

as a sports fan we have to shift from the 86 86 mitts to the 2004 red sox because you're down 03 baby yeah no this is rough um oh man i have a question for you guys on this subject of ben johnson bump caleb williams and all that i was looking at his season long lines on underdog last year caleb williams threw 20 touchdown passes over 3500 yards his passing yards line is 34.99 and a half oh i'm all over ben Johnson with Ben Johnson?

I'm higher.

Yep.

Well, especially if that's their win total, please.

I don't know.

I don't know.

We don't know about Ben Johnson and how he'll do in the big chair, but

I really do believe in Kay Will Williams.

I really think he was in a tough situation last year, and he flashed in moments.

He certainly had his less than glory moments, but I think he's a player.

And I think 3,400 yards is nothing in the NFL.

If he stays 3,499 and a half.

So he's got to hit 3,500.

I think that's a good thing.

But he was over that.

Yeah.

Yeah, I'm over that.

With solid coaching.

He's over that.

Tomorrow.

I'm going to lock that in right now.

Yeah, bang the over on that one.

That's a good one.

It's basically hoping he stays healthy because if he stays healthy, he's get a clear number.

I almost went into eight and a half there.

That's

I'm getting out the broom.

Where's my

okay?

Let's take a look at a team.

Okay, this team had a down year last year.

Oh, baby.

A 30 on the sess dog.

Oh, geez.

Okay, so

we're going to take a look at a team that had a down year.

Does Vegas see a rebound or another down year?

Where do you guys think the San Francisco 49ers total is set?

This is one where...

Hey, Ed, it's me, Dan.

Trust me, I know who you are.

Just call me Dad.

He's probably got you on the speed.

He's my daddy.

What I would pick I think is different than what they're gonna try to lure who is it against you?

Sorry, I was having a fantasy about your father and

yes, the Niners.

Niners who went six and eleven line.

This is your team, See.

If you can't get this one, double-I think they're gonna be, I just tend to think they're gonna be high on the Niners.

Like, I mean, ridiculously so.

I could eat it right here, but I'm going to go 11 and a half.

Okay.

That is really high.

I know.

This could be the end of me.

Like, this could be the end.

Because they've not had a good off-season either.

Like, the more that I think about it, but I'll just go with swing for the fences.

Yeah, I'm going to go...

I'm going to go 8.5.

Swinging for the fences, just like the 0-4 Red Sox.

You knocked it out of the park.

Almost.

It wasn't 11.5.

The answer is 10.5.

Ah!

You're closer than Dan.

I got to put away that.

I got to put away the broom.

Cecily's back in this thing.

Well, it was the Mets, by the way, not the Red Sox, but yeah.

Oh, wait.

Oh.

Jesus Christ.

Didn't you used to do a baseball podcast before this?

86 Mets,

86 Mets, one of the great comeback operations.

Damn it, I really wanted that sweep.

I really wanted to.

Well, I would have known that now.

I just got to close it out.

Even if I were to fall 3-1, it takes a lot of juice out of the narrative.

So it's like,

that was my favorite.

There's nothing I could say about that.

I really wanted to sweep your ace, and now I just need to win.

With each one now, the pressure goes the other direction.

That's right.

All right.

Let's take a look at another team with a new head coach.

They were 4-13 last season.

Where do you think the New England Patriots with the Mike Vrabel bump, how high do you think that's gotten them?

Ooh, I like this one.

I go first on this one, right?

Yep, yep.

I think it's very much a team that's still a work in progress.

And it will be judged that way as well.

So I see improvement.

I'm going to say

six and a half.

That's exactly where I was.

There's two things I think that,

well, first of all, I got to pick the real estate.

Because I think they're...

What were they last year?

They had four wins?

Yep.

So you've got a very promising quarterback in year two.

You're adding, you've added in free agency.

You've got a super solid head coaching situation going on, in my opinion.

I think in the eyes of like all this,

I'll just go one notch.

What a dent, you picked six and a half.

Six and a half.

I'll just go a notch above to seven and a half just because it's like maybe they're getting some inflation.

Do I think that's what they win?

I don't know.

Nailed it.

Seven and a half is the number.

Oh no.

And we've got a comeback brewing.

I'm both proud of you on that one, Mark, and also

starting to get real nervous now.

Does that feel high for them?

I mean,

six and a half feels perfect, but okay.

Well, put it this way.

You don't have to bet the over.

Like, I'm banging the under on that one unless they have an incredible

draft.

Okay.

Now it's 3-2.

Now it's getting interesting.

As a showman, I like it.

I like that it's gotten close.

Well, well

for the sake of my you know nuclear family upend your entire nuclear family i'm disappointed

okay you and you have the right of first um

number here okay this is big all right let's look at last year's super bowl champion a 14 and three season lost some defensive pieces but maybe replenished we're not sure where do you think they've set their line total for the eagles this year oh the eagles

Hmm.

This is where my lack of.

Because I don't know how high they go on any team in these things.

It feels like.

Because if you stick it up at 13 or 14, everyone just bangs that some disaster occurs.

Sticking through it, people.

He's going through this.

Keep in mind, the sports book's goal is to get exactly 50% on either side of the line.

Yeah, so you gotta make it kind of like you gotta play ball on both sides.

10 and a half feels low.

11 and a half?

I have a question though, but what if Dan wants to say the same thing as me?

Like, he's a little bit more.

I do, but I can't because you got me taking turns going first.

Okay.

I would have said 11 and a half.

Yeah, I think that's like what the

best teams seem to get.

I think I think there's the.

I think there's the

take the tush-push away.

It's hard to repeat as champions.

Things don't always go the same way.

You know, they had a lot of injury, fortuity.

Good division.

Commanders, people are gassing up the commanders.

11.5 would have been my pick.

I'll just make that clear.

But I'll go 12.5.

And

going first, we'll call it home.

Field advantage.

Pays off for Mark because 11.5 was the number.

All right, 3-3.

It's coming down to this, Ceci.

Okay.

And how about this?

Since it's 3-3 and you've each gone first three times,

if you have, if you do want to give the same number, we'll just call it a push and go to another team.

But this one, why don't we write down?

We should write this one down.

Okay, I'm going to find something to write with.

I have no paper, so I'm going to text Justin.

Yeah, text me.

That's a good call.

Let's do

this.

This is an interesting fun one.

How about the Seattle Seahawks?

Sam Darnold.

Last season they were

10 and 7

in Mike McDonald's first year.

But yes, another new quarterback.

Oh, I don't know if I like this, but I sent it to you, Justin.

All right, Dan, is yours written down?

No, I'm thinking.

Is this a race to get it in?

Interesting.

Well, that could have been a tiebreaker, but

I don't like that Mark

is so certain.

10-7.

I'm not.

I said I don't like it.

Sam Darnold for Geno Smith.

Is that going to be a higher mark or a lower mark?

That's a wash DK Metcalf's gun.

I don't think people are high on the Seahawks.

I think people are down on the Seahawks.

So I think they're going to be seen.

Okay.

I bet we have the same answer here.

Okay.

All right.

What are we doing?

Here we go.

I have

eight and a half.

Wow.

You guys both said eight and a half, which is perfect.

Okay.

And wait, is that the number two?

That is the number.

Oh, Dan and Mark.

They don't know ball.

They don't know ball, these guys.

They wish they knew

some ball.

All right,

we got to go into another overtime.

Here we go.

Juicy playoff.

All right.

I like this one because there's been a lot of talk about what they did this offseason, especially at their key receiver positions.

They were a 9-8 team last year, clawing their way, trying to make the playoffs.

Couldn't do it.

The Cincinnati Bengals.

Good one.

Good one.

Good one.

Good one.

This one I feel

a number popped in my head right away on this one that I feel really good about.

Yep, same.

I'm ready when you are.

Just gonna let instincts take over here.

All right,

give it to me.

Want to do a three-two-one, Mark?

Yeah.

Three, two, one.

Nine and a half.

Ooh, so we do not have the same number, which means we're gonna have a winner.

And the winner is

drumroll to be added in pose.

Mark nailed it again.

10 and a half was the number.

Did I just come back for 3-0?

You sure did.

Yes.

I just looked at the Browns, like the Browns total fact in the Steelers.

Probably, I don't know what theirs is, but probably lower.

Steelers, eight and a half.

Mark.

I think people are handing that.

That was a tremendous comeback.

I don't feel good about taking your dad away from me, though.

It's too, I mean, these were the grounds.

These were the grounds.

If he just simply, if it, if it furthered his respect for me, if he has any,

that would do the trick.

But I'll,

I think my dad respects you for sure.

Yeah.

So, Dan, would you take the under on that?

Obviously,

yeah.

I don't understand why that's high.

I'm really surprised that's so high, honestly.

I'm very surprised by that.

Jamar Chase's season-long receiving prop is 1369.5 receiving yards.

But here's the thing: I could take the over on that and still feel very confident that they're not going to get double-digit wins because Jamar Chase had one of the greatest seasons ever by a wide receiver last year.

And how many games did they lose?

10.

Right.

Whatever?

They were 9-8 last year.

Yeah, he had 1,700 yards last year, so he cleared this number by over 300 yards.

Justin, to ask you, what's Buffalo's

Bills 10 and sorry, 11 and a half.

So the highest win total for any team is 11.5.

Eagles, Chiefs, Ravens, Bills.

And then 10.5.

We hit three of them.

Lions, Niners, Bengals.

The other 10.5 team is the Commanders.

The Niners might be the most

surprising.

Yeah.

Are they just ignoring?

I mean, I just want to say that.

Just for fun, let me guess on the Jets.

What were they 5 and 12 last year?

Correct.

I'm going to say the Jets are

coach bump?

7.5.

Ouch.

5.5 for the Jets.

Yeah, the Cowboys,

7.5 with a new head coach after going 7-10.

So basically, no Brian Schottenheimer bump.

We saw the Bears got a 3.5-game bump from their last year record total.

The Patriots gotten a 3.5-game bump.

The Jaguars also are up at 7.5 after a 4-13 year.

The Raiders with Pete Carroll and and Geno Smith only got a two and a half game bump after going four and 13.

Their total six and a half wins.

Who did we do a show last week?

What did Jordan have him their top 10?

The top 10 of them?

The Raiders.

Yeah.

Very good.

Interesting stuff.

Congratulations, Mark.

I'm going to struggle to sleep tonight.

You can't.

That doesn't happen to me.

As someone who lived through the 2004 Yankee season to now relive it 20 years later in this setting, it's just something that

I guess all I could do is tip my cap.

Well, thank you.

I'll take some solace in that the game six, I did hit that as well.

It just wasn't my turn.

And

as a result, I took an L, but that doesn't matter.

That's not how people remember these things.

They just remember how it ended or that we, on the game seven, we both nailed it.

Like, nobody's going to remember that.

It's just going to be like Dan choked, and I have to deal with that.

That's just a little bit more.

I think it was good.

It was good.

It was good show, good showmanship, though.

I mean, it was, you know, that's how you'd want any playoff to go, to be dramatic that way.

Chris Wesling was known to say, I've been hoisted upon my own petard.

In this case, it was my broom.

Yeah, you got a little, I think that was some hubris involved with that

particular moment there.

When I was years ago, me and my uncle John would play tennis a lot, and then when one of us tried to really blast the forehand and inevitably fired into the net or like over the fence behind

he's like, oh, little OZ, overzealous.

I got a little OZ.

I'll let it be a lesson to you let it be a lesson I hope and I'll one I'll impart to my sons and and hopefully my father if he ever takes me back we'll be back with another show great show coming up tomorrow we have Connor Rogers of NBC Sports

who is a draft guru knows his stuff and we're gonna talk to him about the

The players in this draft class who we think can be instant contributors like the Cooper DeGenes of the universe who can be that in 2025, according to Connor Rogers.

Until then, do what you must.

Heed the call.

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