New Horizons Monday (with James Palmer)

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The Heed the Call podcast is here to celebrate New Horizons Monday.

Namaste.

Namaste.

Dan Hands is here with Mark Sessler, Connor Orr,

Justin Graver on the ones and twos.

On this, yes, fresh start for so many teams and individuals across the football landscape.

It is New Horizons Monday.

Mark, how are you?

I'm doing great.

I think,

you know, the regular season is over, and this has often been a day of violence for many, but we don't look at it this way.

We embrace...

how we've chosen, the path we've chosen for this event.

And even though many of these names were featured on last year's New Horizons episode,

it's another New Horizon for some of them, once again.

Absolutely, Mark.

And while some people revel in the blood sport of it all on this Monday, instead, Connor, we focus on the positives,

the new horizons, as it were.

And that's what we're going to get into today.

Can I just say as someone who,

you know, went through it during COVID and tried everything and went through a very long like meditation phase, like I still do it, but now like I found my rhythm with it.

But like you have nailed the voice and the backing music.

And it just, this has taken me to like the audio scape has taken me to a very strange place.

But like what very welcome.

Like it's very peaceful.

I don't know.

It's nice.

I feel like

well, I know what you're into because I just learned before the show that you're the proud

owner of a 2016 Chrysler town and country.

So right off the bat, I know you're flying.

Are you into like TM?

Transcendental meditation, I believe it's called?

I don't know what that is.

I think you seem like you're more doing guided meditations.

I like that.

I like just like close your eyes and sit here for 10 minutes and don't think about flipping the shit, you know?

I think that's kind of where I'm at, you know, and just be grateful for everything you have.

I like to do that for, you know, you do that first thing in the morning.

It's just, it sets you off on a good path, you know?

And that's how a town and country falls into your lap.

Right.

And you didn't, like, the circumstances behind it suggest that, you know, you reach deeper worlds and ask and you shall receive.

Someone's like, the old Connor, the Connor that had the edge to him back in the day, like old Connor,

the 2016 Chrysler Town and Country ain't shown up on Facebook marketplace.

You know what I mean?

But through a different lens of living,

these type of deals come into one's lap with, you know, a 14th child on the way.

I do remember, like, you go back and you listen to, like, Are You Kidding Me?

And, which were just amazing things.

And I was like, I was an angry person back then.

I was just a very, and I believed every word of it.

And, you know, it's just proof that people can change a little bit.

I only get mad at, like, I get mad at different things now.

Like my kids.

My kids.

Yes, welcome to

Heat the Call.

Obviously,

if you haven't checked it out already, dig in on the

week 18 recap.

But today's episode is going to be a

just get you exactly where you need to be in terms of knowledge in this big turning point day on the NFL calendar.

So we're going to go through it all.

And in a few minutes, we're going to get James Palmer, our underdog NFL insider, to join us as well.

In the back end of the show, we'll catch up on a couple other things, including playoff news.

But let us start.

Let's get into it.

This on Black, no, New Horizons Monday

with what went down because we haven't seen a ton of bloodshed, uh,

if you want to call it that.

Uh, there have been a couple firings, of course.

We, we know what happened in New England yesterday, and we'll get into that a little bit later.

But when you woke up this morning, uh, there was uh one coach that lost his job.

It is Doug Peterson, the Jaguars fire Doug Peterson.

But interestingly, or depending on your perspective,

and I think a lot of Jacksonville Jaguars fans feel this way.

Maddeningly, they do decide to keep GM Trent Balki after a 4-13 season.

Let's listen in.

I don't think he is, actually.

I think Doug seemed to be very much.

Everybody's ready for New Horizons Monday.

Yes.

Nobody is ready to go golfing and make $3 million a year to do it more than Doug Peterson if you've been following him quick closely.

Anyway, owner of the Jackson Jaguars, Shad Khan, who a few months back gave a pre-week one speech in the facility saying this is the most talented roster we've ever had.

Well, yeah, the record says otherwise.

And now he looks ahead without Peterson, but with Balky.

I don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater, okay?

We have

a lot of things that are working that can always be improved and will improve.

And there are other things that are not working that need to be fixed.

So,

and

you know, the coaching,

that

is an area that, you know, we need to fix now.

But

certainly over the last few years, I mean, we've built a football administration and, you know, a lot of things are working well there.

Connor, you're writing about this subject in SI, where you could check out Connor who is, you know, writing like a madman in addition to all his podcasting duties.

What are your thoughts and your takes on the situation, the decision to move on from Peterson, but keep the GM in place as they begin another head coaching search?

I would say two lifelines of hope for Jaguars fans who are not happy with the news today.

One is that GM contracts typically run through drafts and that we have had multiple situations in recent years, the Jets, if you remember, Dan, where a GM is replaced after a draft.

That's always possible.

Another sub-possibility here is that some of these owners are just not comfortable running head coach interviews, right?

They don't know what to ask.

They don't know where, you know, they're not, you know, it's not their day-to-day strength.

And so, you know, maybe he just wants a familiar face, someone he can trust in there.

And if a new coach comes in and says, I can't work with this guy, then you figure it out later.

that said

if that's not the case you have lopped off your talent pool in a very real and significant way you've basically

I mean I would imagine you kissed Ben Johnson goodbye I think he's probably a perfect person for that job that's who you'd want working with Trevor Lawrence

and you've certainly you know you've certainly limited your talent pool there

I don't understand it.

A lot of people around the league don't understand it, but that's why I'm holding out those little caveats that maybe Balky is just hanging around for a little bit.

But if that's not the case,

this is a head scratcher.

Mark, let me tee you up this way with a tweet

along the lines of what Connor's saying,

some of the head scratching around the league based on this decision.

This is from Jordan Schultz.

Multiple sources emphasized last week that the Jaguars would struggle to attract the top head coach if they kept Trent Balki.

They faced similar challenges during their last head coaching search.

Owner Shad Khan spoke with many people, but he remains unmoved.

Balki is staying.

One source just now,

insane.

That's the last thing that if you're a fan of this team, or frankly, a Shad Khan, that like you're

a little bit lost in the woods if this response to Trent Falky sticking around surprises you.

I mean, this was probably the most surprising.

non-lever pull of all that happened during all of this.

But I think, Connor, you're on to something with the the idea that if you still want to retain the concept of this long list of people that you want to hire, that, you know, John Dorsey broke up with the Chiefs in June exactly the way that you're saying.

And I think that that, because, you know, again, it's all these new, like you've been with these scouts all year.

And for all of Balky's issues, I went and looked at his last four drafts.

And these are not all players that are on the Jaguars.

But of his past four drafts, all but three players are still active in the NFL.

And many have played and had many starts.

So, you know, I think the thing is that a lot of people don't like Trent Balki.

So if you're going to try to tell Ben Johnson, come here, we live in a world now where the new coach has already identified someone he wants to pair with, like the Dayball Shine situation, the Bills situation.

And it's like,

you can't, you know, take a coach and remove their power and have someone else already over them.

So if they're smart, I hope what you just said is true, that there is a plan here.

We're not axing off 40% of the candidates right here here on January 6th.

Khan will now be searching for a sixth head coach since he purchased the team in November 2011 and took over in 2012.

Balky, as Connor pointed out, is entering the final year of his contract.

And yeah, there is a, you want to take the Jaguars seriously.

They still have a quarterback in Trevor Lawrence, who I know the last two years have been rocky and injuries have played a role in that.

That makes the job, I would think, attractive for offensive-minded head coaches or any type of head coach candidate.

But at the same time, this is a team that, I don't know, I think back to last year's draft when you had Tony Khan, Shad's son, who's obviously has a big role in the organization as well, wearing a neck brace as part of a fake wrestling angle in the war room during the draft.

And I'm just like, is this a serious organization?

Or is this to use an overly used term from 2024?

Are the Jaguars deeply unserious?

And if if they are unserious, like my team and other teams out there that have struggled to find any type of traction in recent years, like how, what kind of candidates are you actually going to get in this search?

So, yeah,

we'll see.

We'll see.

In other news, go ahead.

Want to put a button on it?

I will just add, yeah, to put a bow on it.

I do think even if they don't, you know, Ben

at this point might go back to the Lions for all we know, you know, but if none of these places are going to suit kind of his needs and his interests.

But I do think that that tier two,

if you want to call it that, among a lot of people where you have your Liam Cohens, your Joe Brady's, a lot of those guys, I think that might be your kind of breadbasket if you're Jacksonville.

And one of those guys might end up being an absolute superstar.

So you still might get the coach,

but and sometimes conventional wisdom here is lost, you know, at this point in the year.

And so, you know, I would say keep your options open, but I would just say, again, you know, you don't want to lop off too much of the pool before you get it.

I didn't like Khan using the throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I think we need to retire that because I don't know if anyone's ever done that.

I get what it means, but it's like,

are there a lot of recorded instances of like literally, oh, I threw out the bathwater and the baby went with it and no one here noticed that?

Is that a biblical reference?

No, I don't believe so.

Just a lot of people had dirty tubs back then.

Like, it's sort of like when

I had my first apartment out after college, and I like made dinner once.

Like I bought like a Foreman grill and I cooked chicken and everything.

And then I was like, oh shit, I have to do the dishes.

And they sat in there for like a week and then I just threw them all away.

It's a move.

Justin.

I just wanted to add some context.

The reporter asked Shad Khan a question right before that using the baby bathwater analogy.

And Khan actually started that quote, that answer.

I cut it off.

He said, to use your analogy, I don't want to throw the BBC.

You're not going to

be able to do it.

A reporter should be using it even less, in my opinion.

But I'll just get off my soapbox.

In other news, the New York Giants will not be making any changes at head coach or GM.

The Giants are retaining Joe Shane.

And Brian Dable off their 3-14 season.

Team President John Mara announced in a statement.

Mara also spoke to the media, as did Shane, and here's what they had to say about the Giants' decision to stay the course.

And in Brian Dable's case, listen, I'm at practice all the time.

I go to the team meetings.

I watch the players.

I watch how they react.

I still think he's the right guy.

If I'm sitting here a year from now, you're asking me these questions, I'll take the heat.

But at the end of the day, we've got to make a decision, and we've made one.

And Shane?

No.

Again, we've got to continue to build it the right way.

If we have a really good roster and you get close, and again, I think John said it to you guys earlier,

progress.

And we're three wins.

We didn't make progress in the direction we wanted to this year, and it's not good enough.

And it starts with me, and I understand that.

But

to have an ultimatum, you make the playoffs so you don't.

That gets in a little bit of the question earlier.

That changes things.

But that's not it.

John believes in the people in the building and Steve, and they're giving us the ability to build it the right way.

Connor, this one surprised me because it was such a, in a lot of ways, for Tiffany franchise, a humiliating season for the Giants who lost the most games ever in franchise history, had their first 10-game losing streak.

You had the absolute fiasco that was not just losing Saquon Barkley to the Eagles and then Barkley having a 2,000-yard season, but it all going down on what was always

the Giants' biggest fear about doing a docus series with NFL Films, doing that series about their offseason and then really putting a spotlight on their poor decision-making.

And then just the way so many of these games went, where they were embarrassing losses.

They were dreadful at home winning one game all season.

It felt like the

table was set for Mara to hit the hard reset button, but I guess he's kind of sick of doing that because he's done it a lot since the glory days of Coughlin.

Well, I think that's it too.

And yeah, by the way, take that idiot plane, people.

I'm pretty windside about this.

Yeah, I wonder if that played a role because no billionaire oligarch wants some idiot in a prop plane demanding that you fire everyone.

He did literally the opposite.

And one quick thing, like it can't be cheap to be doing that even every Sunday, but he says they're going to keep doing it till he fires everyone.

So that's a lot of money invested in his little pet project.

I think

I might have looked it up with

my buddy Albert Breer, and I think we, you can actually do it for like $3,000.

So you hire the company to do it.

And then like a guy does it in like his plane.

I think it's like $3,000.

Now, what do you think?

What do you love that hanging around?

Gas and, you know, yeah i mean am i gonna be able to do that that's twenty four thousand next year for your slate of home games is that seem worth it to you i don't know um i'll say this um

about brian dable it was interesting on sunday you know when you're preparing for the wave of this i think uh you know a couple times like you know i was you know just talking to people and everyone's like well you got to remember that joe shane and ben johnson worked together in miami they worked together for five years you know they guys that came together and if you look at what ben johnson said he wants that alignment right?

He wants the coach to come in, you know, at GM and everybody to be on the same page.

And so, you know, keep an eye out for that.

But what I think ultimately

the case is here is that Brian Dable won Coach of the Year in 2022.

And John Mara, I thought it was, you know, if I'm a fan of the Giants, I do like the fact that he stepped back and essentially realized, like, I never gave this guy a chance with any quarterback that he wanted.

Like, I wanted Daniel Jones to be good.

And Brian Dable made him as good as he's ever been in the NFL.

Before he got there, Daniel Jones was not a top 45 quarterback in terms of expected points added from 19 to 21, right?

He was top 30 after that with Dable

among qualifying passers.

But this is one of those things where it's like, even if you gave him a slightly healthier Kirk Cousins and Aaron Rodgers, someone like that, and then a dependable field goal kicker, this team has eight wins this past year, you know, and it doesn't look as chaotic, I think.

And I I do think that was a good job by him to take a step back and be like, do I really want to fire another one of these people again and then have to go through all this again and maybe not get the guy that I want again?

I do worry, though, when we think about our hot butts exercise, that

are these two put right into a place where, I mean, Mara's had comments that are strong, like, we've got to win next season now.

Everything's got to go right.

And are they the first people sent out of town mid-season if it's a bit of a disaster?

Again, all I would point out, and like, it's now, it's not next season, but they play the AFC West, the NFC North, they play their own division.

By many metrics, they've got the toughest schedule, so it's gonna be like a bit of a wild ride.

Um, but he might be able to pick his own quarterback in the draft, too.

That would buy you some time.

Well, I think that, and you make a great point with the schedule, but I would say this: like, I think a lot of teams, like as we're talking right now, the Raiders are holding on to Antonio Pierce, too.

And it's what a lot of teams should have done in 2022.

This is the worst quarterback draft in recent memory, if you're besides 2022, right?

And if you're not up there, it's like, who cares, right?

Almost.

And if you have a bad next season, it's like, yes, there will be some fan restlessness, but nobody's going to give up on the product.

There's Browns fans that still exist for Christ's sake, right?

And next year, you're in a much better position if the coach that you think might be good turns out to suck.

I mean, to me, it's like you have to take a broader view of this a little bit, but

I think you make a good point as well.

Patience is running out for the owner, but also just the organization.

Since that McAdoo season with Odell on the boat, right,

that's way back in 2016, 11 wins and one and done in the playoffs.

3-13, 5-11, 4-12, 6-10, 4-13, 9-7-1, won a playoff game, but that ended up being the worst thing that could have happened because that led to them paying Danny Dimes way over market value, followed by 6-11, and 3-14.

And yet Dable is back for a fourth season.

First things they got to find is a quarterback, and they got to find him coickly.

You know, another thing that surprised me about

New Horizons Monday.

I thought Antonio Pierce was

history by Sunday night.

But here he is up at the lectern on Monday morning doing his regular media availability.

And And I know the Raiders are, you know,

some speaking of unserious, like, they do things a little bit differently.

And it's possible, you know, that Pierce could be getting fired as we speak right now.

But right now, he's still got a job.

And obviously, he's being asked about it.

Here's a little bit of sound from Antonio Pierce.

Ask you again,

do you have any clarity on what's happening next year?

I haven't been told anything different.

That is awesome, if you're watching on YouTube, vintage.

I always wanted vint the starter pullover jacket

with the pouch in the front.

And I'll never forget, like, that's what I wanted.

The big gift I wanted from Santa.

Well, at this point, we had to, you know, it was about 13 or 14 at this point.

But the gift that I wanted for Christmas more than anything else was the Jets starter pullover.

And my mom,

you know, didn't quite...

nail the assignment.

She got me, remember, there was either the pullover or the starter zip up.

So you had the zip

and then the big logo on the back or the pullover.

And she got me the zip-up, and I was just, uh,

I was just too, um, I didn't say anything about it.

And I wore that, that jet jacket for three years, but at the same time, I never got the pullover.

And that brought back a lot of stuff for me just now, Antonio Pierce.

Looks like he stole that out of Gruden's old office to me.

I will say it's like an amazing, uh, it's an amazing play for Antonio Pierce.

If, like, because he said it, I haven't been told anything differently.

It's sort of like

there, I think they're, I forget what show it was, but like, you know, you're working in the mailroom and then you, you're in the office and a phone rings, and you just pick it up and just pretend you're that person.

And it's like Antonio Pierce just goes to work that day and it's just like, yeah, no, I'm just still the head coach of the Raiders.

And if you pretend long enough, then Mark Davis is going to be like, well, it's weird to do it now.

So let's just keep him the head coach of the Raiders, you know?

That feels about right for the Raiders.

I mean, I do wonder if another

if there's another turn to come here, another move that, you know, Mark Davis operates obviously different than any other owner out there is what's happening at 5 p.m.

on the East Coast as we record this on the Monday, known by others as Black Monday.

You got to...

You got to make the move if you're pulling.

You got to pull the lever and get going because all these other teams that are looking for a coach are off and running.

You just hope the Raiders are doing it right, but I don't think the Raiders are doing it right.

I think Antonio Pierce, it was made very clear, and this is not a shot against him because I think he could have a long career in coaching, that Antonio Pierce at this time is not a head coach and did not have a good first year and doesn't seem like the right dude.

And if I'm a Raiders fan who's just waiting for this team to go and find a quarterback and have the right coach in place and start winning games again, because it's been years and years and years at this point, and this is not a good sign.

I don't think the offseason is getting off to a great start with Pierce still being employed as we discuss right now.

I would say, too, I don't know if anything complicated the Raiders' decision, but you can see how some dominoes fell yesterday and how some

candidates are immediately being paired with other teams.

And did Vegas say, okay, we might have kind of, now we're kind of behind the apple cart in terms of getting the guy we might have wanted.

And does this make sense to wait now?

I don't know.

I'm just saying, is that a possibility?

Maybe.

Maybe.

Maybe.

All right.

In other news, let's talk to some coordinators.

The Seattle Seahawks, it wasn't enough.

Geno Smith throwing a career high four touchdowns on Sunday to get Seattle management to stick with offensive coordinator Ryan Grubb, who is fired after Seattle season came to an end on Sunday.

So Grubb is one and done there.

That's a mark a Seattle team that...

Really struggled to do something that they, it's very important organizationally, which is run the football.

And that was the first thing I thought.

The fact that they can never get a running game going, and I know they had injuries, but they just could not get it going.

There was no balance in that offense, and now they go in a different direction.

I think one of the reasons you get those numbers with Gino is they became so pass-heavy.

And Conrad, I know you talked about Grubb a lot and what I think they Mike McDonald was like, Look, this is a good coach, but my vision for the team is different.

I think it channels right back to that balance.

But I think Grubb also couldn't duplicate what he did in college in the pros the way that you would have wanted to see it at some point by the end of the year?

Yeah, I mean, I think too, I mean, this is in order, if you want to run the ball well in the NFL, like this, it has to be a commitment.

And it has to, it's like you look at what the Lions have done, you look at what the Vikings have done, the Packers have done.

It's such a commitment, and you can't come in and basically overlay a college-style playbook into the NFL right now.

It's just not going to work.

It's not going to beat good defenses.

And so, I think Mike McDonald knows that.

Mike McDonald's been picking these run games apart for for the better part of his career.

And I would guess the fact that it happened so quickly meant that he probably realized this had to change, you know, halfway through the season.

You know, I always get a kick out of whenever they cut to the sideline shot of Sean Payton in Denver.

And I don't remember if he had it this way in New Orleans also, but he does have it with the Broncos.

And on the top of the big rectangular play sheet that he stares at for three and a half hours, it says in magic marker written across the top, run the ball.

Run the ball.

And Seattle, you could bet they're going to make more of an effort next year with whoever they hire.

The Bengals make a move at defensive coordinator, saying goodbye to Captain Lou Anarumo.

After six seasons, he had been with the team as their DC since Zach Taylor was hired in 2019.

Obviously,

the Cincinnati defense took a big step back this year.

It did improve down the stretch, but not enough to get Lou another job.

We're going to get into more of Anarumo when James joins us but your thoughts on this move well this is like if you go back to our last show I mean he was a favorite of ours because I think this is a good coach like this was one of the more surprising moves just that

is he was he the coaching him himself the problem I know that the personnel wise and things fell off but like that doesn't make them better right now they have to go find someone to make them better at this position and he to me is not who I would have pointed out personally

yeah that's the thing I mean it's, you know, the sad part about a lot of stuff this time of year is that like fans, in order to just be like satiated, need someone to lose their job for no reason.

And the Bengals, until the person, like, you lost DJ Reeder.

He's like one of the most important run defenders in the NFL, and you can build a scheme around him.

And so, of course, like, you know,

things are going to get messed up, you know, and Trey Hendricks still had 17 sacks.

And so I think that's one of those that you could probably see an even bigger dip from the Bengals defense before it gets better.

And remember, no one wanted that job when Zach Taylor got it.

Luiana Rumo was like the only guy who took that job.

He was down to like his fifth candidate at that point.

So I don't know.

It doesn't seem right.

And remember, when you talk about hot seats, Zach Taylor, once as a head coach, you start dismissing your coordinators.

That is your get out of jail free card.

Next year, it's going to be an immense amount of pressure on Zach Taylor to get that team back to the playoffs or else.

Finally, we learned this on Sunday.

The Browns fire offensive coordinator Ken Dorsey and O-line coach Andy Dickerson.

That is just the first of many changes for the Browns.

There's also a report out there that came out

or it was announced that Deshaun Watson suffered a setback in his Achilles tendon rehab, and they don't know if he's going to require more surgery or how substantial it is, but obviously a lot going on around the Browns right now, Mark.

Well, and that messaging,

there is some reporting out there that if

he could not play, there's some injury guarantee that they can take away some of the money they'd owe him.

But it sounds like he,

I don't think he's ever playing for them again.

But Deshaun Watson ties back to what the problem is with Ken Dorsey and with their offensive line and the fact that under Stefansky, you want to be a run-heavy play-action type team.

And

he's been able to make it work with a lot of quarterbacks who weren't household names, but not Deshaun Watson.

So I think this is like, if you're keeping Stefanski, kind of get back to your roots.

And they lost Bill Callahan.

I think you want to get a premier offensive line coach and a play caller and the playbook to fit what you really want to do.

And Deshaun's not really part of the picture at this point.

He certainly doesn't need to be.

All right.

Yeah, I don't know.

Go ahead, Connor.

No,

there's nothing, I mean, you know, other than this, I don't know, this whole thing's got to get nuked at some point.

Yes, I agree.

And finally, before we take a break,

again, not as much bloodshed as we might expect.

Usually there's seven or eight guys that lose their job.

Justin, if you could let me know what the count is, because right now, with Antonio Pierce still the head coach, or the Raiders, the Giants still running it back.

Obviously, with Dayball, the Dolphins announced that they will retain both Mike McDaniel and GM Chris Greer.

The Colts announced they will retain Shane Steichen and GM Chris Ballard, which is unbelievable.

Ballard is unkillable.

That team has gone down the toilet with Ballard over the last eight years.

Anyway, how many people have been fired as head coaches since Sala went now?

The number is five now.

I think we had, how many?

Two in season with Sala, or three in season with Sala, Eber Flus, and Dennis Allen.

And then you got Gerard Mayo and Doug Peterson after the final.

So there you go.

Usually there's between six and eight.

So

right now we're a little below the typical average, but we'll see.

We'll see if another one trickles in.

All right, let's take a break.

When we get back, we welcome in James Palmer to talk about what he's hearing here on New Horizons Monday.

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All right.

We are back.

Oh, all right.

We are back.

It is New Horizons Monday, and now we welcome in

a man who every day is a New Horizon as he looks out over a big snowy mountain

with his skis, like his $40,000 skis.

I feel like James would have a very expensive skipper.

James Palmer, welcome to New Horizons Monday.

And am I correct?

I don't know if they make $40,000 skis, but I'd love to ride them if they did.

Probably have rocket boosters on the back or something.

I don't know what they do.

James Palmer, of course, is the insider for Underdog.

And also, you could catch James and Steve Smith on the 89 podcast.

And James, you've been very busy

all over social media and the reporting.

So I thought, why don't we get together and we'll kind of go down the rundown of some of the things we're hearing and you share what you got for us.

Is that what?

That works.

Let's do it.

Let's get together.

All right.

Let's do it.

Let's start here with the situation in New England.

Of course,

Robert Kraft makes the decision to fire Gerard Mayo.

All sorts of connecting of the dots is going down over this.

Let's listen to Kraft, by the way, who spoke and continues to share his absolute pain and misery about firing his head coach Gerard Mayo after one season.

I'm going to be very brief here and say

this whole situation is on me.

I feel terrible for Gerard

because I put him in an untenable situation.

I know that he has all the tools as a head coach to be successful in this league.

He just needed more time before taking the job.

In the end,

I'm a fan of this team first.

And now

I have to go out and find a coach who can get us back to the playoffs and hopefully championships.

All the messaging from Kraft is weird to me, James.

Just like

strange, strange vibes of Patriot way.

And this is a day we learned that the Patriots requested to interview Lions offensive coordinator Ben Johnson.

But of course, it's Mike Vrabel that everyone is connecting the Patriots to.

Jeff Howe reported that he has his assistants lined up prepared to go with him, and he is interested in that Patriots vacancy.

What are you hearing around the Patriots after their move?

Well, first, Jeff's pretty accurate there, but at the same time, he's been a consultant, Vrabel has, for the last year.

He's had some time to put a staff together.

It's usually what you do on a gap year.

Like, you work on these type of things.

You already have some, obviously, coaches you'd like to work with, executives you've liked to work with as well.

I don't know that's a deal-breaker for Mike, but he definitely has all of these things in line, which he hasn't had a job essentially this past year.

So, yes, you can have the time to be afforded to do some of those things.

So that's true.

You would assume that they acted as swiftly as they did, where I don't believe Mayo even had an opportunity to speak to the team and you have your press release already drawn up within a, what, an hour, hour and a half of your final game, that you knew you were going to move quickly.

And to me, this aligns with the Mike Vrabel train is on like a

a $40,000 ski type speed down the track right now.

So to me, you feel like you got to operate a little bit quickly if, you know, Mike is obviously a key candidate.

Personally, I know they're going to look at everything and they should, and they should look at a variety of candidates and they should make sure they check all the boxes because they haven't been through a head coaching search in a long, long, long time.

But I don't think you move on from Mayo unless you really are pretty keen that you can land Mike Vrabel.

But then if you're,

they want to talk to Ben Johnson and a few others.

Like, is any of this to be taken seriously by any other human?

Like, they know who they want.

And

for me, like,

that's what they did with Mayo.

Like he said he wanted him for five years and he knew it.

So it's two times in a row where you're bringing in what are ex-patriots part of the Patriot way without a really, I guess, robust or wide net of who might be more modern and even better than some of these guys.

Yeah, and I would say the funny part, honestly, Mark, it's like, it's this.

You don't ever talk about like, oh, we got him before he was ready, unless you're a coach that came in as part of a succession plan.

Like, I don't think that sentence is said in the early portion of a head coach failing, going, like, we got him too soon.

Like, it's not, that's because of the setup that they put themselves in.

Now, I get what you're saying, and there's enough sham interviews that go on in the NFL that really aren't worth a damn at all.

But I do think the Patriots do understand they'd be doing themselves a disservice if they didn't genuinely look at other candidates for sure.

Like, you have to.

And I think they know they have to.

But I think the draw, and I want all of you guys, it really is, as I call around, it is Mike Rabel and Ben Johnson.

And then there is the next group.

And so you would behoove yourself to interview Ben Johnson for sure.

But you do want to make sure you see everything that's available to you because you haven't done the process and you need to do the process.

More reporting around this.

Mike Giardi, who's been covering this really well, a former colleague at NFL Media.

I have talked to a half dozen league execs today and all believe Mike Rabel will be the Patriots' next head coach.

Not surprising.

Connor, what are you hearing about this?

I think,

you know,

same as James, where, you know, I think that there's two things going on here.

I would assume that the crafts were legitimately bothered by the reaction locally to Mayo.

I mean, there was fire Mayo chance when they're getting blown out at home by the Chargers.

And I think that Ben Johnson is the market favorite.

I think a lot of people there want him to be the next head coach.

And so if you're the crafts, you do that two-tiered search, right?

You look at Mayo.

I think they moved fast because of Mayo, but I think you look at Johnson as well.

And let's not discount this.

I think this is probably going to be one of the very few places that Johnson interviews, right?

Very true.

It's not going to take a lot of these interviews.

But I will say this.

I would not be surprised if we see a Vrabel

and some kind of old favorites that come in and make this more palatable for people, like a Josh McDaniels, maybe coming back and being offensive coordinator or in some, you know, kind of bigger offensive picture role.

So I think that Vrabel has a lot of steam behind him, especially if this thing gets rolling.

I think that's spot on, Connor.

And I know Josh is one of the names that he has kind of on his list of OCs that he would possibly look at in terms of what Vrabel's looking at.

I also think, and I had this conversation, and I wanted to kind of monkey wrench this into this conversation because this is a good spot for it.

And I thought it was a great conversation I had this past weekend with a former head coach that is in this head coaching cycle right now

that

has already had interviews requested for him.

So he is in the middle of this cycle.

And he told me something really interesting.

And to me, this is part of the New England thinking as well.

Because Robert Crafty looks great up there.

Suit looks great.

Pocket square, just perfectly placed in there with the way the reverse plum looks goes.

Black t-shirt under the dress shirt doesn't bother me at all.

No, it doesn't bother me.

I do like it.

It doesn't bother me at all.

He's always had pretty

good gave me a pause, but it was on my radar as well.

Well, I don't know.

Maybe he didn't tan like this week.

And so the salad wasn't as dark as he liked it to be.

So So he had to throw the t-shirt on underneath.

But it's this, how many more head coaches is he going to hire?

And the conversation I had with this potential candidate is this.

Second go-around head coaches are very in vogue this year.

They were last year.

And Dan Quinn and Jim Harbaugh and Raheem Morris.

And you look at these guys come back around.

The idea is they learned a lot in the first go, and they have the opportunity to turn things around much quicker.

And in my opinion, Robert Kraft wants this thing turned back into a winning caliber franchise that

we all know it as quickly as possible because that's what they're used to.

And what this coach told me was: Ben Johnson is a great play caller.

He might be the best play caller in football this year.

But he said, there is zero chance he will be the play caller next season as a head coach that he's been the last couple of years in Detroit because it is impossible to be that when you are the head coach of a football team.

Somebody is knocking on your door every five minutes, whether it's a coordinator or an assistant or the training staff does it about three times a day.

The PR team, you just don't have the time he said to scheme and tinker the way you do when you're just a play caller so he said it's not against ben it's all guys going into their first year as a head coach you are not the same caliber play caller what he's also saying in this is you have all of these other skills that you have learned to turn things around quicker that you go through some of those missteps that you've gone through in the past in terms of hiring a staff, the interview process of hiring your staff.

Vrabel knows all of these things.

And I think there's an allure there with him in this cycle and specifically in New England because you check all of those boxes and your turnaround in a lot of people's eyes is much quicker because those things that Ben's going to learn and other people or first-year head coaches are going to learn are avoided when you make this type of hire.

Moving over to another AFC East team, the Jets, of course, they fired Robert Sala way back in October, and now they are ramping up their search.

They have really cast a wide net.

Ben Johnson's not on their list of requested interviews

because Ben Johnson's not going to go to a team that doesn't have a quarterback.

But everyone else is on it.

I don't see that fit market-wise for Ben Johnson either.

No.

Interesting.

That's a good black hole.

Okay.

So, Mike Vrabel, Ron Rivera, these are the coaches that have requested to interview or the Jets have requested to interview.

Mike Vrabel.

Who do we have?

Ron Rivera, Brian Flores, Aaron Glenn, Josh McCown, Joe Brady, Matt Nagy, Arthur Smith, Brian Brian Greasy, Vance Joseph, Mark Sessler, Bobby Sloek, and Rex Ryan.

And speaking of Rex Ryan, Rex is convinced he's going to get this job.

God loves Rex.

And I wouldn't put anything past the Jets at this point.

He's convinced he's going to get the job.

He was on the D Pietro and Rothenberg show on ESPN Radio, and he made it clear that Aaron Rodgers, his shenanigans, wouldn't fly on his watch.

I'm saying this.

I just painted a picture on why you wouldn't, if you were the Jets, why you would have paused on bringing them back.

And clearly, when you have a guy that doesn't show up for mandatory minicamp, and by the way, he's your quarterback coming off an injury, I think that's an absolutely ridiculous message you sent to the team.

And so, you know, obviously, if he comes back, things would be different.

If he's back, it ain't going to be

the country club, you know, show up whenever the hell you want to show up.

That ain't going to happen.

So I'll just leave it at that.

Do they have a pool at this country club?

Would people be walking barefoot, pool side?

Yeah.

You know what's crazy?

Like, I wouldn't hate Rex as the DC of the Jets.

You know, he tried to get the DC job of the Cowboys,

but obviously not as head coach.

What are you hearing around the Jets?

I think it's widely believed that the Vrabel interview was essentially Vrabel using the Jets to get the Patriots to fire Mayo.

Like, is the Jets' job

someone a job that they're going to fill easily?

It is a mess.

Like, it's an absolute mess.

And I've heard that from candidates at both the GM and the head coaching spot.

But the cool part, maybe it's cool, I don't know,

that was said to me by both type of candidates is,

but if you're part of the turnaround,

I've heard

rounds like 14 times.

It's so weird that there's like this allure to it.

Like, I talked to a GM candidate who was like, like,

it's a real mess, man.

I don't even know if I want to, but if I'm part of the turnaround there, like

that's something.

I mean, yeah, he's like, that's something.

I'm Theo Epstein.

It's a big deal.

You don't get caught up in the lore of what you can be.

But yeah, many, I mean, I always go back to on our show when we had Sauce Gardner on, you know, an hour after he was drafted.

And I told him, hey, Sauce,

it's been a real tough ride for us.

And he was one of the many, many players and coaches that I don't care about the past.

we're starting something new we're changing something you know flat flash cut to about a week from now when we learn that sauce gardner wants to get a trade out of new york like there is there is a lot of work to be done here i i i i like the

i like the idea of aaron glenn former jet you're not alone the guy that might have a connection to the team and uh speaking of aaron glenn i want to play this um this came from sean payton uh in his uh media availability In fact, it was on my radar based on a tweet from one, James Palmer.

This is what Sean Payton had to say about Aaron Glenn coming off the performance by the Detroit defense in their division clinching win over the Vikings on Sunday night.

You know, you watched the game last night, and the best interview Aaron Glenn could ever give was for three hours last night.

There's not one thing he can say or do to a GM or an owner that was more impressive than that game.

Absolutely.

We talked about that last night, James.

So Glenn is a name that I keep coming back to where who would be up for the job who knows the history of the team and would be able to bring something that the team desperately needs, which is some credibility and a little bit of a stiff upper lip.

Yeah, Glenn's on that.

By the way, what Sean said, was it Pete Rose that he went into a job interview with his baseball card?

Like for a manager?

I think he brought brought his card and was just like, that's more hits than anybody.

I'll be here on Monday.

My job.

Like, I think he brought his baseball card to an interview.

But yeah, I know ties are important.

Ties to the region are important.

I look at a number of names that definitely have ties there.

Like, Borganzi is Mike Borganzi, the Chiefs Assistant General Manager, to me, kind of has some allure there with what he's been a part of in a culture that has been established for a number of years and has been aware of how kind of the top of the group in terms of head coach can do it, how a front office has evolved and changed, which that was an archaic type of

group when he got there before Ken Dorsey, I believe, when he was in Kansas City, and kind of watch a front office grow and become more innovative and learn kind of the nuances of how you run a team from that side of things.

Like, I think that's appealing, and he has ties to the Northeast.

And I think he played at Brown, I want to say.

So he's just kind of like that area and whatnot.

I think that stuff matters in this search.

But I do think when you mention, like we all do, the mess of things,

you need to have a clear plan on how you're going to do both those things.

And you have to be curious about the patients.

One quick question is we've got the Mike Tenenbaum, what, 33rd team.

I think one of the reasons this massive laundry list of names we all recognize is because there's essentially a search for him doing this for the Jets.

But then are you back in the world where like, and it's not just a Ben Johnson thing, but like pair Aaron Glenn with the GM that someone else picked?

Like it goes against once a thing where this relationship matters so much.

And that's the one concern I have.

I mean, I totally agree.

I think they need to come in together.

I think this is one of the few opportunities where you have the ability to get that alignment.

Like

it's not out yet, sneak preak, but like I just did a thing for Underdog

about

Trent Bulky staying in Jacksonville.

That dramatically changed the perception of that job across the landscape of the league.

Like I was talking to multiple people on Saturday who were like, that's the best job available.

You have a culture that is not bad.

It's not in a bad place.

It's not nearly in a place to where the Jets are or the Bears are.

You have a quarterback.

You have decent players.

You have skilled players.

You have like a lot at your disposal.

Once Trent Bulkey was kept, that changed the perception of a lot of people with that job.

So that plays right into what you're saying, Mark, right?

Like you would want that alignment with GM head coach almost as like in unison.

And I know some of the candidates have talked to one another.

Like some of the GM candidates that are up, and some of the head coach candidates that are up there have spoken to one another.

And that's maybe where you get some of that alignment that you would need in a place like the Jets.

And we'll finish here.

So the Bears have requested interviews with Ben Johnson, Aaron Glenn, Mike Kafka, the Giants OC, Cardinals OC, Drew Petzing, Cowboys head coach Mike McCarthy,

and your thoughts on that.

The Bears, Ben Johnson is taking interviews with the Bears and Patriots.

So we'll see

how all that goes.

But the McCarthy of it all, do you expect McCarthy to be back with the Cowboys?

And did this raise your eyebrow at all with the Bears?

Or is this just kind of how it goes?

I love the Bears doing this.

I think the Bears are making it known on day one.

Like,

we're interested in you.

We know this is probably going to get shot down immediately, but it's out.

Like, it's out for you to know, Mike.

It's out for all of us to know that we would like to speak with you.

Because I do think, and I feel like I'm the only one talking here during this segment, so everybody,

do you guys feel like,

I feel like Mike McCarthy should be evaluating staying with Dallas as much as Dallas is evaluating Mike McCarthy staying with them?

Like,

well, especially if there's interest from beyond.

Yeah.

What if,

yeah.

Jerry Jones pulled the most Irish guilt mother move, which is that, well,

you know, they're asking about interest in Mike McCarthy elsewhere.

And it's like, well, we want people who want to be here.

And it's like, you've done nothing to show him that you want him to be

four seasons, including not renewing his contract and then holding him hostage for the last two weeks, you know?

Yeah, I completely.

I think with the Bears, though, too, if Ben Johnson is taking that interview,

it's pretty telling to me because there are so many common opponents in terms of film between the Bears and the Lions that he has probably watched enough common defenses to where he's seen enough Caleb Williams filmed just by what he's studying to think that there's enough to work with and he'd like to work with Caleb Williams.

To me, because of the number of common opponents, shows me that he wouldn't mind working with him as a quarterback and he sees something in Caleb Williams.

And I think that's telling.

The question would be,

there are plenty of people in Detroit that will tell you he is a close-the-door, tinkering mad scientist.

With the cultural issues that they have in that locker room, specifically on the offensive side of the ball, how does he tell the Bears how he'll fix those aspects outside of just working with the quarterback?

Because I think that's higher on people's list than people think.

Higher on the Bears list than people think.

Yes.

Am I picking up some signs that Ben Johnson might be like an Adam Gase all-star a little bit?

Is his personality cut out for the big chair?

Well, so it's interesting you brought that up, but when

was the last time we had a head coaching candidate that we talked about for three years before he was hired?

And it was Adam Gase.

But I think Ben is the right fit somewhere.

It's not a big market.

I mean that's why we talked about Jacksonville.

Ad nine.

I thought that was a great fix.

Smaller market.

Quarterback is there.

You can bring in the GM.

And I will say that I think that Ben, the staff that he has in mind is almost like Kyle Shanahan, right?

It's comprised of maybe some slightly more dynamic people that are going to fill in the culture gaps that maybe Ben already understands that he's not going to be able to do.

But one quick note on Chicago, the thing that I keep hearing coming out of that search is like, we need a dude.

We need like, and I, you know, like they keep describing this Captain America type individual where it's like, you know, and I'm sure that the Dan Campbell effect has something to do with that, where it's like, we need a guy that can come in here and take this building by the throat, which is why I kind of went cold on.

Ben to the bears for a moment.

Now, Ben can be that guy.

I think he could, certainly, but we don't know that.

And when you have guys that you already requested, like Brian Flores, who you know is going to do that, he's an alpha.

He's going to come in and change things.

It's like, I don't know.

This search has all of a sudden become very interesting to me.

I feel like Connor just described a head coach that tells me who I'm talking about, that probably has a long cut Copenhagen in this pocket and a long cut Copenhagen in this pocket.

And they're going to go head-to-head, O-line, D-line, sans pads, and just smash heads.

Who is that guy?

He was Mike Rabel.

That's super mad.

He would fit.

Yeah.

And somebody that also would not be deterred by that media group at all in Chicago.

No.

Like, Mike would brush them off.

Wouldn't it be funny if after all this drama around the Patriots the last 24 hours, Rabel doesn't even end up there?

James, you've said not all, but a lot.

Oh, so I will say it all real quick before I leave because I know I got to jump on the radio, but I will say this.

The big news that nobody, I think, is talking about on Monday morning was Lou Anarimo getting fired and the number of head coaching candidates that were like,

they have been very interested in bringing him along as their defensive coordinator.

There's several that are very interested and wanted his availability and where they end up possibly going.

So Lou.

Captain Lou will land on his feet, it sounds like.

Does he land in New York?

Do they change DCs?

Does Shane go with Vrabel and then the DC job in New York is open, and Lou winds up there, back where he's been

and Staten Algonquin?

It was a DB coach there, Connor, I think, right?

Yeah.

So

connect the dots.

Those are connected to the dots.

Didn't he also coach under Dan Campbell?

And if Aaron Glenn gets hired off somewhere, maybe that's a call Dan Campbell looks at making.

Greeny!

You.

I mean,

he will be without a job very shortly.

I mean, it will not be a very lengthy deal for Lou.

Thank you, James.

Lou.

Lou.

Lou.

All right, we'll take a break and we'll be right back with a little playoff injury update.

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Stick a fork in them!

Ah, yes, feels like a good time before we get into the quick playoff injury updates.

The fork committee, which met twice, once in late October and again two weeks later, we forked approximately one-third of the league by the time we were done with our hearings.

And I don't remember this ever happening before, Mark.

And I really do think this speaks to that this was kind of a weird year.

There's always a team or two, or sometimes three, that gets off the mat and surprises us.

And this year, a couple teams came close, but nobody did.

So the Panthers, the Patriots, the Titans, the Jaguars, the Raiders, the Giants, the Saints, the Cowboys, the Jets, the Bears, the Browns, all forked by us, and none of them came back to cost us, which means none of us have to make a charitable donation.

So big victory.

I mean,

we still could as a group

commit to some charity, but

that's TBD.

I'm just saying within the rules of the game.

And I don't know, does that mean that we played it too safe?

You could argue that.

I know there's some discourse online that we did, but you can't force.

For instance, we never forked the Bengals.

I think that was the right decision ultimately because

of the season.

Yeah, like, so that was right.

Everyone forked the Bengals back in October.

And it doesn't mean like you nailed it.

In fact, you got lucky.

It's just the way it bounced at the end.

Is there any team that we, looking back, we should have forked?

Maybe there were a couple, but

I'll give one that was in.

So we forked 11 teams.

Those 11 teams make up 11 of the first 12 draft picks in the final draft order.

So that means we did a pretty good job at picking out which teams to fork.

The one team that is in that top 12 that we did not fork is the 49ers, and they were pretty injury-riddled, but there were some signs midway, three-quarters of the way through.

I could live with it.

That would have been like a kind of a look-at-me type of move, though, I think, when we did this, right?

I mean, right,

absolutely.

I could live with that because they deserved the benefit of the doubt at that time of the year.

And, you know, they just never put it together.

And we didn't foresee that McCaffrey was going to come back and then immediately get hurt again and all the other injuries they dealt with.

So that's okay.

One little note, though, because, like, I mean, the first team that we forked confidently was the Panthers.

And this entire list, like, they kind of ended the year with a little more pizzazz than you ever would have imagined.

So, you know, it's not dark news for every one of these teams.

That's true.

That's a good way to look at it, Mark.

On New Horizons Monday, you've really

put a bow on that conversation.

All right, before we sign off, let's go quickly through some playoff injury updates.

Starting with Eagles quarterback Jalen Hurts, who remains in the concussion protocol as we inch closer to super wild card weekend.

They got a big game on

Sunday, I believe.

Is it Sunday?

Eagles

and Packers.

So Hurts is in the protocol.

Not a cause for panic yet here, Conman, because this is just part of the process.

He wasn't cleared before last week.

They haven't really started practicing until today.

So we'll learn more.

I guess by midweek, if he's still in the protocol, then you start to wonder.

But right now, yes, there's nothing to really pull from that, right?

Yeah, I would be incredibly stunned if he's not out there on Sunday.

I guess the only thing that you would be concerned with in some way, shape, or form is if he's not comfortable throwing and there's any kind of rust at the beginning of the game.

But even then, a good coordinator will build in some easy throws to get him confident early in the game, and you can get around stuff like that.

The news is not so good for Packers wide receiver Christian Watson, who it looked like he suffered a serious knee injury, and indeed he did.

He tore his ACL in the season finale.

He also suffered other damage in the knee and a non-contact injury.

And Matt LaFleur said, you know, his availability for the start of 2025 is in some doubt.

So a really tough injury for Watson, who had a role on this offense, as we talked about, and that's something the Packers now have to get by.

The news was better around the quarterback position.

Jordan Love and Malik Wilson were both banged up in that game.

And LaFleur said in his Monday availability that he thinks that both QBs are, quote, going to be okay.

Also, somewhat okay, Ravens wide receiver Zay Flowers, who didn't look so hot, his lower body injury in the season finale on Saturday against the Browns, but he is now being labeled officially by the Ravens as day-to-day, and he could be in mix to play this weekend.

Big one, Mark.

That's a key, key piece of that offense.

Maybe even the Jenga piece of that offense, the passing game at least.

So if Flowers could be on the field, even as a diversion, that would be a big deal for the Ravens.

Yeah, and we talked about on Sunday night's show that there's an element to Flowers that the Ravens, I mean, really almost historically have never had at that position.

He's their first pro bowler, and he just adds something for Lamar Jackson, and it kind of can scramble and confuse the defense.

So it's huge.

I think, you know, one team here is losing a key wide receiver, another potentially gets one back.

That's a doorway closed and a doorway open, potentially.

And finally, we mentioned this on Sunday night, but just now it's official.

The Rams lose running back Blake Coram to a fractured forearm.

His season is over, so the Rams backfield gets a little bit thinner ahead of their playoff matchup against Mark.

The Rams.

Hold, sorry, I was literally texting him.

Gotcha.

Gotcha.

Yes.

Woo!

Oh, boy.

The Tampa Bay Buccaneers.

I know, but I was like literally in a tech.

I'm trying to go somewhere like five minutes after the show, and I was trying to sort things out.

I got you, Richard.

All right.

I'll even let you keep that in because I'm a good good sport, but that was just a mess.

Yeah, incredible sport.

Incredible sport.

All right, that's it for New Horizons Monday.

A lot of information we got to you.

That's what this is about, keeping you up to date.

And we'll be back on Thursday, right, Justin?

With our preview of Super Wild Card weekend and, of course, anything else that develops in terms of the coaching searches and hirings, firings, all that stuff.

I'll go confirm what the games are for that Thursday show before I.

You'll be ready.

Yeah.

You'll be ready.

So, next time you hear from us, it will be with Jordan and Mike.

Connor, good luck this week, sir.

We'll see you after the Packers and the Eagles, baby.

Let's go.

Oh, yeah.

Well, on the Patreon, we're going to see you on our Friday fun show.

But I hope.

Absolutely.

All right,

we'll see you then.

All right.

And thank you to everybody for watching and listening.

Till next time, heat the call.