New Horizons Monday (with James Palmer)

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Speaker 4 The Heed the Call podcast is here to celebrate New Horizons Monday.

Speaker 7 Namaste.

Speaker 7 Namaste.

Speaker 8 Dan Hands is here with Mark Sessler, Connor Orr,

Speaker 4 Justin Graver on the ones and twos.

Speaker 12 On this, yes, fresh start for so many teams and individuals across the football landscape.

Speaker 13 It is New Horizons Monday.

Speaker 9 Mark, how are you?

Speaker 11 I'm doing great. I think,

Speaker 11 you know, the regular season is over, and this has often been a day of violence for many, but we don't look at it this way. We embrace...

Speaker 11 how we've chosen, the path we've chosen for this event. And even though many of these names were featured on last year's New Horizons episode,

Speaker 11 it's another New Horizon for some of them, once again.

Speaker 15 Absolutely, Mark.

Speaker 17 And while some people revel in the blood sport of it all on this Monday, instead, Connor, we focus on the positives,

Speaker 20 the new horizons, as it were. And that's what we're going to get into today.

Speaker 22 Can I just say as someone who,

Speaker 22 you know, went through it during COVID and tried everything and went through a very long like meditation phase, like I still do it, but now like I found my rhythm with it.

Speaker 22 But like you have nailed the voice and the backing music. And it just, this has taken me to like the audio scape has taken me to a very strange place.

Speaker 11 But like what very welcome.

Speaker 22 Like it's very peaceful. I don't know.
It's nice. I feel like

Speaker 26 well, I know what you're into because I just learned before the show that you're the proud

Speaker 28 owner of a 2016 Chrysler town and country. So right off the bat, I know you're flying.

Speaker 29 Are you into like TM?

Speaker 30 Transcendental meditation, I believe it's called?

Speaker 22 I don't know what that is.

Speaker 11 I think you seem like you're more doing guided meditations.

Speaker 22 I like that. I like just like close your eyes and sit here for 10 minutes and don't think about flipping the shit, you know?

Speaker 22 I think that's kind of where I'm at, you know, and just be grateful for everything you have. I like to do that for, you know, you do that first thing in the morning.

Speaker 22 It's just, it sets you off on a good path, you know?

Speaker 27 And that's how a town and country falls into your lap.

Speaker 11 Right.

Speaker 11 And you didn't, like, the circumstances behind it suggest that, you know, you reach deeper worlds and ask and you shall receive.

Speaker 36 Someone's like, the old Connor, the Connor that had the edge to him back in the day, like old Connor,

Speaker 18 the 2016 Chrysler Town and Country ain't shown up on Facebook marketplace.

Speaker 14 You know what I mean?

Speaker 27 But through a different lens of living,

Speaker 27 these type of deals come into one's lap with, you know, a 14th child on the way.

Speaker 22 I do remember, like, you go back and you listen to, like, Are You Kidding Me? And, which were just amazing things. And I was like, I was an angry person back then.

Speaker 22 I was just a very, and I believed every word of it. And, you know, it's just proof that people can change a little bit.
I only get mad at, like, I get mad at different things now.

Speaker 22 Like my kids.

Speaker 7 My kids.

Speaker 44 Yes, welcome to

Speaker 1 Heat the Call.

Speaker 26 Obviously,

Speaker 27 if you haven't checked it out already, dig in on the

Speaker 33 week 18 recap.

Speaker 26 But today's episode is going to be a

Speaker 18 just get you exactly where you need to be in terms of knowledge in this big turning point day on the NFL calendar.

Speaker 28 So we're going to go through it all.

Speaker 42 And in a few minutes, we're going to get James Palmer, our underdog NFL insider, to join us as well.

Speaker 27 In the back end of the show, we'll catch up on a couple other things, including playoff news.

Speaker 52 But let us start.

Speaker 5 Let's get into it.

Speaker 4 This on Black, no, New Horizons Monday

Speaker 33 with what went down because we haven't seen a ton of bloodshed, uh,

Speaker 23 if you want to call it that.

Speaker 52 Uh, there have been a couple firings, of course.

Speaker 27 We, we know what happened in New England yesterday, and we'll get into that a little bit later. But when you woke up this morning, uh, there was uh one coach that lost his job.

Speaker 47 It is Doug Peterson, the Jaguars fire Doug Peterson.

Speaker 16 But interestingly, or depending on your perspective,

Speaker 14 and I think a lot of Jacksonville Jaguars fans feel this way.

Speaker 29 Maddeningly, they do decide to keep GM Trent Balki after a 4-13 season.

Speaker 57 Let's listen in.

Speaker 58 I don't think he is, actually.

Speaker 54 I think Doug seemed to be very much.

Speaker 22 Everybody's ready for New Horizons Monday. Yes.

Speaker 47 Nobody is ready to go golfing and make $3 million a year to do it more than Doug Peterson if you've been following him quick closely.

Speaker 45 Anyway, owner of the Jackson Jaguars, Shad Khan, who a few months back gave a pre-week one speech in the facility saying this is the most talented roster we've ever had.

Speaker 54 Well, yeah, the record says otherwise. And now he looks ahead without Peterson, but with Balky.

Speaker 62 I don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater, okay?

Speaker 22 We have

Speaker 62 a lot of things that are working that can always be improved and will improve. And there are other things that are not working that need to be fixed.
So,

Speaker 62 and

Speaker 62 you know, the coaching,

Speaker 62 that

Speaker 62 is an area that, you know, we need to fix now. But

Speaker 62 certainly over the last few years, I mean, we've built a football administration and, you know, a lot of things are working well there.

Speaker 27 Connor, you're writing about this subject in SI, where you could check out Connor who is, you know, writing like a madman in addition to all his podcasting duties.

Speaker 47 What are your thoughts and your takes on the situation, the decision to move on from Peterson, but keep the GM in place as they begin another head coaching search?

Speaker 22 I would say two lifelines of hope for Jaguars fans who are not happy with the news today.

Speaker 22 One is that GM contracts typically run through drafts and that we have had multiple situations in recent years, the Jets, if you remember, Dan, where a GM is replaced after a draft.

Speaker 22 That's always possible. Another sub-possibility here is that some of these owners are just not comfortable running head coach interviews, right? They don't know what to ask.

Speaker 22 They don't know where, you know, they're not, you know, it's not their day-to-day strength. And so, you know, maybe he just wants a familiar face, someone he can trust in there.

Speaker 22 And if a new coach comes in and says, I can't work with this guy, then you figure it out later. that said

Speaker 22 if that's not the case you have lopped off your talent pool in a very real and significant way you've basically

Speaker 22 I mean I would imagine you kissed Ben Johnson goodbye I think he's probably a perfect person for that job that's who you'd want working with Trevor Lawrence

Speaker 22 and you've certainly you know you've certainly limited your talent pool there

Speaker 22 I don't understand it. A lot of people around the league don't understand it, but that's why I'm holding out those little caveats that maybe Balky is just hanging around for a little bit.

Speaker 22 But if that's not the case,

Speaker 22 this is a head scratcher.

Speaker 57 Mark, let me tee you up this way with a tweet

Speaker 27 along the lines of what Connor's saying,

Speaker 27 some of the head scratching around the league based on this decision.

Speaker 18 This is from Jordan Schultz.

Speaker 46 Multiple sources emphasized last week that the Jaguars would struggle to attract the top head coach if they kept Trent Balki.

Speaker 8 They faced similar challenges during their last head coaching search.

Speaker 18 Owner Shad Khan spoke with many people, but he remains unmoved.

Speaker 52 Balki is staying.

Speaker 18 One source just now,

Speaker 41 insane.

Speaker 11 That's the last thing that if you're a fan of this team, or frankly, a Shad Khan, that like you're

Speaker 11 a little bit lost in the woods if this response to Trent Falky sticking around surprises you. I mean, this was probably the most surprising.
non-lever pull of all that happened during all of this.

Speaker 11 But I think, Connor, you're on to something with the the idea that if you still want to retain the concept of this long list of people that you want to hire, that, you know, John Dorsey broke up with the Chiefs in June exactly the way that you're saying.

Speaker 11 And I think that that, because, you know, again, it's all these new, like you've been with these scouts all year. And for all of Balky's issues, I went and looked at his last four drafts.

Speaker 11 And these are not all players that are on the Jaguars. But of his past four drafts, all but three players are still active in the NFL.
And many have played and had many starts.

Speaker 11 So, you know, I think the thing is that a lot of people don't like Trent Balki.

Speaker 11 So if you're going to try to tell Ben Johnson, come here, we live in a world now where the new coach has already identified someone he wants to pair with, like the Dayball Shine situation, the Bills situation.

Speaker 11 And it's like,

Speaker 11 you can't, you know, take a coach and remove their power and have someone else already over them. So if they're smart, I hope what you just said is true, that there is a plan here.

Speaker 11 We're not axing off 40% of the candidates right here here on January 6th.

Speaker 8 Khan will now be searching for a sixth head coach since he purchased the team in November 2011 and took over in 2012.

Speaker 18 Balky, as Connor pointed out, is entering the final year of his contract.

Speaker 46 And yeah, there is a, you want to take the Jaguars seriously.

Speaker 27 They still have a quarterback in Trevor Lawrence, who I know the last two years have been rocky and injuries have played a role in that.

Speaker 55 That makes the job, I would think, attractive for offensive-minded head coaches or any type of head coach candidate.

Speaker 50 But at the same time, this is a team that, I don't know, I think back to last year's draft when you had Tony Khan, Shad's son, who's obviously has a big role in the organization as well, wearing a neck brace as part of a fake wrestling angle in the war room during the draft.

Speaker 58 And I'm just like, is this a serious organization?

Speaker 56 Or is this to use an overly used term from 2024? Are the Jaguars deeply unserious?

Speaker 27 And if if they are unserious, like my team and other teams out there that have struggled to find any type of traction in recent years, like how, what kind of candidates are you actually going to get in this search?

Speaker 7 So, yeah,

Speaker 7 we'll see. We'll see.

Speaker 38 In other news, go ahead.

Speaker 59 Want to put a button on it?

Speaker 22 I will just add, yeah, to put a bow on it. I do think even if they don't, you know, Ben

Speaker 22 at this point might go back to the Lions for all we know, you know, but if none of these places are going to suit kind of his needs and his interests. But I do think that that tier two,

Speaker 22 if you want to call it that, among a lot of people where you have your Liam Cohens, your Joe Brady's, a lot of those guys, I think that might be your kind of breadbasket if you're Jacksonville.

Speaker 22 And one of those guys might end up being an absolute superstar. So you still might get the coach,

Speaker 22 but and sometimes conventional wisdom here is lost, you know, at this point in the year.

Speaker 22 And so, you know, I would say keep your options open, but I would just say, again, you know, you don't want to lop off too much of the pool before you get it.

Speaker 11 I didn't like Khan using the throw the baby out with the bathwater. I think we need to retire that because I don't know if anyone's ever done that.
I get what it means, but it's like,

Speaker 11 are there a lot of recorded instances of like literally, oh, I threw out the bathwater and the baby went with it and no one here noticed that?

Speaker 30 Is that a biblical reference?

Speaker 11 No, I don't believe so.

Speaker 22 Just a lot of people had dirty tubs back then. Like, it's sort of like when

Speaker 22 I had my first apartment out after college, and I like made dinner once. Like I bought like a Foreman grill and I cooked chicken and everything.
And then I was like, oh shit, I have to do the dishes.

Speaker 22 And they sat in there for like a week and then I just threw them all away.

Speaker 7 It's a move.

Speaker 6 Justin.

Speaker 65 I just wanted to add some context. The reporter asked Shad Khan a question right before that using the baby bathwater analogy.
And Khan actually started that quote, that answer. I cut it off.

Speaker 65 He said, to use your analogy, I don't want to throw the BBC.

Speaker 20 You're not going to

Speaker 20 be able to do it.

Speaker 11 A reporter should be using it even less, in my opinion. But I'll just get off my soapbox.

Speaker 17 In other news, the New York Giants will not be making any changes at head coach or GM.

Speaker 40 The Giants are retaining Joe Shane.

Speaker 15 And Brian Dable off their 3-14 season.

Speaker 61 Team President John Mara announced in a statement.

Speaker 8 Mara also spoke to the media, as did Shane, and here's what they had to say about the Giants' decision to stay the course.

Speaker 66 And in Brian Dable's case, listen, I'm at practice all the time. I go to the team meetings.
I watch the players. I watch how they react.

Speaker 66 I still think he's the right guy.

Speaker 66 If I'm sitting here a year from now, you're asking me these questions, I'll take the heat. But at the end of the day, we've got to make a decision, and we've made one.

Speaker 40 And Shane?

Speaker 7 No.

Speaker 67 Again, we've got to continue to build it the right way.

Speaker 67 If we have a really good roster and you get close, and again, I think John said it to you guys earlier,

Speaker 32 progress.

Speaker 67 And we're three wins. We didn't make progress in the direction we wanted to this year, and it's not good enough.
And it starts with me, and I understand that.

Speaker 32 But

Speaker 67 to have an ultimatum, you make the playoffs so you don't. That gets in a little bit of the question earlier.

Speaker 67 That changes things. But that's not it.

Speaker 67 John believes in the people in the building and Steve, and they're giving us the ability to build it the right way.

Speaker 58 Connor, this one surprised me because it was such a, in a lot of ways, for Tiffany franchise, a humiliating season for the Giants who lost the most games ever in franchise history, had their first 10-game losing streak.

Speaker 46 You had the absolute fiasco that was not just losing Saquon Barkley to the Eagles and then Barkley having a 2,000-yard season, but it all going down on what was always

Speaker 47 the Giants' biggest fear about doing a docus series with NFL Films, doing that series about their offseason and then really putting a spotlight on their poor decision-making.

Speaker 33 And then just the way so many of these games went, where they were embarrassing losses.

Speaker 18 They were dreadful at home winning one game all season.

Speaker 45 It felt like the

Speaker 58 table was set for Mara to hit the hard reset button, but I guess he's kind of sick of doing that because he's done it a lot since the glory days of Coughlin.

Speaker 22 Well, I think that's it too. And yeah, by the way, take that idiot plane, people.

Speaker 59 I'm pretty windside about this.

Speaker 37 Yeah, I wonder if that played a role because no billionaire oligarch wants some idiot in a prop plane demanding that you fire everyone.

Speaker 56 He did literally the opposite.

Speaker 11 And one quick thing, like it can't be cheap to be doing that even every Sunday, but he says they're going to keep doing it till he fires everyone.

Speaker 11 So that's a lot of money invested in his little pet project.

Speaker 22 I think

Speaker 22 I might have looked it up with

Speaker 22 my buddy Albert Breer, and I think we, you can actually do it for like $3,000.

Speaker 22 So you hire the company to do it. And then like a guy does it in like his plane.
I think it's like $3,000.

Speaker 31 Now, what do you think?

Speaker 7 What do you love that hanging around?

Speaker 22 Gas and, you know, yeah i mean am i gonna be able to do that that's twenty four thousand next year for your slate of home games is that seem worth it to you i don't know um i'll say this um

Speaker 22 about brian dable it was interesting on sunday you know when you're preparing for the wave of this i think uh you know a couple times like you know i was you know just talking to people and everyone's like well you got to remember that joe shane and ben johnson worked together in miami they worked together for five years you know they guys that came together and if you look at what ben johnson said he wants that alignment right?

Speaker 22 He wants the coach to come in, you know, at GM and everybody to be on the same page. And so, you know, keep an eye out for that.
But what I think ultimately

Speaker 22 the case is here is that Brian Dable won Coach of the Year in 2022.

Speaker 22 And John Mara, I thought it was, you know, if I'm a fan of the Giants, I do like the fact that he stepped back and essentially realized, like, I never gave this guy a chance with any quarterback that he wanted.

Speaker 22 Like, I wanted Daniel Jones to be good. And Brian Dable made him as good as he's ever been in the NFL.

Speaker 22 Before he got there, Daniel Jones was not a top 45 quarterback in terms of expected points added from 19 to 21, right? He was top 30 after that with Dable

Speaker 22 among qualifying passers.

Speaker 22 But this is one of those things where it's like, even if you gave him a slightly healthier Kirk Cousins and Aaron Rodgers, someone like that, and then a dependable field goal kicker, this team has eight wins this past year, you know, and it doesn't look as chaotic, I think.

Speaker 22 And I I do think that was a good job by him to take a step back and be like, do I really want to fire another one of these people again and then have to go through all this again and maybe not get the guy that I want again?

Speaker 11 I do worry, though, when we think about our hot butts exercise, that

Speaker 11 are these two put right into a place where, I mean, Mara's had comments that are strong, like, we've got to win next season now. Everything's got to go right.

Speaker 11 And are they the first people sent out of town mid-season if it's a bit of a disaster?

Speaker 11 Again, all I would point out, and like, it's now, it's not next season, but they play the AFC West, the NFC North, they play their own division.

Speaker 11 By many metrics, they've got the toughest schedule, so it's gonna be like a bit of a wild ride. Um, but he might be able to pick his own quarterback in the draft, too.
That would buy you some time.

Speaker 22 Well, I think that, and you make a great point with the schedule, but I would say this: like, I think a lot of teams, like as we're talking right now, the Raiders are holding on to Antonio Pierce, too.

Speaker 22 And it's what a lot of teams should have done in 2022. This is the worst quarterback draft in recent memory, if you're besides 2022, right? And if you're not up there, it's like, who cares, right?

Speaker 22 Almost. And if you have a bad next season, it's like, yes, there will be some fan restlessness, but nobody's going to give up on the product.

Speaker 22 There's Browns fans that still exist for Christ's sake, right? And next year, you're in a much better position if the coach that you think might be good turns out to suck.

Speaker 22 I mean, to me, it's like you have to take a broader view of this a little bit, but

Speaker 22 I think you make a good point as well.

Speaker 27 Patience is running out for the owner, but also just the organization.

Speaker 13 Since that McAdoo season with Odell on the boat, right,

Speaker 14 that's way back in 2016, 11 wins and one and done in the playoffs.

Speaker 8 3-13, 5-11, 4-12, 6-10, 4-13, 9-7-1, won a playoff game, but that ended up being the worst thing that could have happened because that led to them paying Danny Dimes way over market value, followed by 6-11, and 3-14.

Speaker 27 And yet Dable is back for a fourth season.

Speaker 18 First things they got to find is a quarterback, and they got to find him coickly.

Speaker 52 You know, another thing that surprised me about

Speaker 5 New Horizons Monday.

Speaker 29 I thought Antonio Pierce was

Speaker 37 history by Sunday night.

Speaker 54 But here he is up at the lectern on Monday morning doing his regular media availability.

Speaker 27 And And I know the Raiders are, you know,

Speaker 18 some speaking of unserious, like, they do things a little bit differently.

Speaker 56 And it's possible, you know, that Pierce could be getting fired as we speak right now.

Speaker 39 But right now, he's still got a job.

Speaker 13 And obviously, he's being asked about it.

Speaker 41 Here's a little bit of sound from Antonio Pierce.

Speaker 7 Ask you again,

Speaker 7 do you have any clarity on what's happening next year?

Speaker 66 I haven't been told anything different.

Speaker 24 That is awesome, if you're watching on YouTube, vintage.

Speaker 35 I always wanted vint the starter pullover jacket

Speaker 46 with the pouch in the front.

Speaker 27 And I'll never forget, like, that's what I wanted.

Speaker 15 The big gift I wanted from Santa.

Speaker 46 Well, at this point, we had to, you know, it was about 13 or 14 at this point.

Speaker 41 But the gift that I wanted for Christmas more than anything else was the Jets starter pullover.

Speaker 16 And my mom,

Speaker 60 you know, didn't quite...

Speaker 43 nail the assignment.

Speaker 31 She got me, remember, there was either the pullover or the starter zip up.

Speaker 7 So you had the zip

Speaker 31 and then the big logo on the back or the pullover.

Speaker 27 And she got me the zip-up, and I was just, uh,

Speaker 13 I was just too, um, I didn't say anything about it.

Speaker 41 And I wore that, that jet jacket for three years, but at the same time, I never got the pullover.

Speaker 43 And that brought back a lot of stuff for me just now, Antonio Pierce.

Speaker 11 Looks like he stole that out of Gruden's old office to me.

Speaker 22 I will say it's like an amazing, uh, it's an amazing play for Antonio Pierce. If, like, because he said it, I haven't been told anything differently.
It's sort of like

Speaker 22 there, I think they're, I forget what show it was, but like, you know, you're working in the mailroom and then you, you're in the office and a phone rings, and you just pick it up and just pretend you're that person.

Speaker 22 And it's like Antonio Pierce just goes to work that day and it's just like, yeah, no, I'm just still the head coach of the Raiders.

Speaker 22 And if you pretend long enough, then Mark Davis is going to be like, well, it's weird to do it now. So let's just keep him the head coach of the Raiders, you know?

Speaker 11 That feels about right for the Raiders. I mean, I do wonder if another

Speaker 11 if there's another turn to come here, another move that, you know, Mark Davis operates obviously different than any other owner out there is what's happening at 5 p.m.

Speaker 27 on the East Coast as we record this on the Monday, known by others as Black Monday.

Speaker 15 You got to...

Speaker 27 You got to make the move if you're pulling.

Speaker 9 You got to pull the lever and get going because all these other teams that are looking for a coach are off and running.

Speaker 38 You just hope the Raiders are doing it right, but I don't think the Raiders are doing it right.

Speaker 9 I think Antonio Pierce, it was made very clear, and this is not a shot against him because I think he could have a long career in coaching, that Antonio Pierce at this time is not a head coach and did not have a good first year and doesn't seem like the right dude.

Speaker 49 And if I'm a Raiders fan who's just waiting for this team to go and find a quarterback and have the right coach in place and start winning games again, because it's been years and years and years at this point, and this is not a good sign.

Speaker 48 I don't think the offseason is getting off to a great start with Pierce still being employed as we discuss right now.

Speaker 22 I would say, too, I don't know if anything complicated the Raiders' decision, but you can see how some dominoes fell yesterday and how some

Speaker 22 candidates are immediately being paired with other teams. And did Vegas say, okay, we might have kind of, now we're kind of behind the apple cart in terms of getting the guy we might have wanted.

Speaker 22 And does this make sense to wait now? I don't know. I'm just saying, is that a possibility?

Speaker 12 Maybe.

Speaker 7 Maybe.

Speaker 15 Maybe.

Speaker 63 All right.

Speaker 52 In other news, let's talk to some coordinators.

Speaker 56 The Seattle Seahawks, it wasn't enough.

Speaker 18 Geno Smith throwing a career high four touchdowns on Sunday to get Seattle management to stick with offensive coordinator Ryan Grubb, who is fired after Seattle season came to an end on Sunday.

Speaker 61 So Grubb is one and done there.

Speaker 27 That's a mark a Seattle team that...

Speaker 27 Really struggled to do something that they, it's very important organizationally, which is run the football. And that was the first thing I thought.

Speaker 15 The fact that they can never get a running game going, and I know they had injuries, but they just could not get it going.

Speaker 15 There was no balance in that offense, and now they go in a different direction.

Speaker 11 I think one of the reasons you get those numbers with Gino is they became so pass-heavy.

Speaker 11 And Conrad, I know you talked about Grubb a lot and what I think they Mike McDonald was like, Look, this is a good coach, but my vision for the team is different.

Speaker 11 I think it channels right back to that balance.

Speaker 11 But I think Grubb also couldn't duplicate what he did in college in the pros the way that you would have wanted to see it at some point by the end of the year?

Speaker 22 Yeah, I mean, I think too, I mean, this is in order, if you want to run the ball well in the NFL, like this, it has to be a commitment.

Speaker 22 And it has to, it's like you look at what the Lions have done, you look at what the Vikings have done, the Packers have done.

Speaker 22 It's such a commitment, and you can't come in and basically overlay a college-style playbook into the NFL right now. It's just not going to work.
It's not going to beat good defenses.

Speaker 22 And so, I think Mike McDonald knows that. Mike McDonald's been picking these run games apart for for the better part of his career.

Speaker 22 And I would guess the fact that it happened so quickly meant that he probably realized this had to change, you know, halfway through the season.

Speaker 27 You know, I always get a kick out of whenever they cut to the sideline shot of Sean Payton in Denver.

Speaker 47 And I don't remember if he had it this way in New Orleans also, but he does have it with the Broncos.

Speaker 8 And on the top of the big rectangular play sheet that he stares at for three and a half hours, it says in magic marker written across the top, run the ball.

Speaker 50 Run the ball.

Speaker 15 And Seattle, you could bet they're going to make more of an effort next year with whoever they hire.

Speaker 23 The Bengals make a move at defensive coordinator, saying goodbye to Captain Lou Anarumo.

Speaker 41 After six seasons, he had been with the team as their DC since Zach Taylor was hired in 2019.

Speaker 57 Obviously,

Speaker 18 the Cincinnati defense took a big step back this year.

Speaker 8 It did improve down the stretch, but not enough to get Lou another job.

Speaker 11 We're going to get into more of Anarumo when James joins us but your thoughts on this move well this is like if you go back to our last show I mean he was a favorite of ours because I think this is a good coach like this was one of the more surprising moves just that

Speaker 11 is he was he the coaching him himself the problem I know that the personnel wise and things fell off but like that doesn't make them better right now they have to go find someone to make them better at this position and he to me is not who I would have pointed out personally

Speaker 22 yeah that's the thing I mean it's, you know, the sad part about a lot of stuff this time of year is that like fans, in order to just be like satiated, need someone to lose their job for no reason.

Speaker 22 And the Bengals, until the person, like, you lost DJ Reeder. He's like one of the most important run defenders in the NFL, and you can build a scheme around him.
And so, of course, like, you know,

Speaker 22 things are going to get messed up, you know, and Trey Hendricks still had 17 sacks.

Speaker 22 And so I think that's one of those that you could probably see an even bigger dip from the Bengals defense before it gets better. And remember, no one wanted that job when Zach Taylor got it.

Speaker 22 Luiana Rumo was like the only guy who took that job. He was down to like his fifth candidate at that point.

Speaker 7 So I don't know.

Speaker 22 It doesn't seem right.

Speaker 47 And remember, when you talk about hot seats, Zach Taylor, once as a head coach, you start dismissing your coordinators.

Speaker 46 That is your get out of jail free card.

Speaker 16 Next year, it's going to be an immense amount of pressure on Zach Taylor to get that team back to the playoffs or else.

Speaker 27 Finally, we learned this on Sunday.

Speaker 52 The Browns fire offensive coordinator Ken Dorsey and O-line coach Andy Dickerson.

Speaker 47 That is just the first of many changes for the Browns.

Speaker 31 There's also a report out there that came out

Speaker 53 or it was announced that Deshaun Watson suffered a setback in his Achilles tendon rehab, and they don't know if he's going to require more surgery or how substantial it is, but obviously a lot going on around the Browns right now, Mark.

Speaker 11 Well, and that messaging,

Speaker 11 there is some reporting out there that if

Speaker 11 he could not play, there's some injury guarantee that they can take away some of the money they'd owe him. But it sounds like he,

Speaker 11 I don't think he's ever playing for them again.

Speaker 11 But Deshaun Watson ties back to what the problem is with Ken Dorsey and with their offensive line and the fact that under Stefansky, you want to be a run-heavy play-action type team. And

Speaker 11 he's been able to make it work with a lot of quarterbacks who weren't household names, but not Deshaun Watson. So I think this is like, if you're keeping Stefanski, kind of get back to your roots.

Speaker 11 And they lost Bill Callahan. I think you want to get a premier offensive line coach and a play caller and the playbook to fit what you really want to do.

Speaker 11 And Deshaun's not really part of the picture at this point. He certainly doesn't need to be.

Speaker 7 All right.

Speaker 22 Yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 7 Go ahead, Connor.

Speaker 55 No,

Speaker 22 there's nothing, I mean, you know, other than this, I don't know, this whole thing's got to get nuked at some point.

Speaker 7 Yes, I agree.

Speaker 56 And finally, before we take a break,

Speaker 50 again, not as much bloodshed as we might expect.

Speaker 46 Usually there's seven or eight guys that lose their job.

Speaker 13 Justin, if you could let me know what the count is, because right now, with Antonio Pierce still the head coach, or the Raiders, the Giants still running it back.

Speaker 41 Obviously, with Dayball, the Dolphins announced that they will retain both Mike McDaniel and GM Chris Greer.

Speaker 14 The Colts announced they will retain Shane Steichen and GM Chris Ballard, which is unbelievable.

Speaker 25 Ballard is unkillable.

Speaker 20 That team has gone down the toilet with Ballard over the last eight years.

Speaker 52 Anyway, how many people have been fired as head coaches since Sala went now?

Speaker 65 The number is five now. I think we had, how many? Two in season with Sala, or three in season with Sala, Eber Flus, and Dennis Allen.
And then you got Gerard Mayo and Doug Peterson after the final.

Speaker 35 So there you go.

Speaker 47 Usually there's between six and eight.

Speaker 50 So

Speaker 45 right now we're a little below the typical average, but we'll see.

Speaker 30 We'll see if another one trickles in.

Speaker 46 All right, let's take a break.

Speaker 33 When we get back, we welcome in James Palmer to talk about what he's hearing here on New Horizons Monday.

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Speaker 34 All right.

Speaker 34 We are back.

Speaker 7 Oh, all right.

Speaker 20 We are back.

Speaker 4 It is New Horizons Monday, and now we welcome in

Speaker 4 a man who every day is a New Horizon as he looks out over a big snowy mountain

Speaker 4 with his skis, like his $40,000 skis.

Speaker 7 I feel like James would have a very expensive skipper.

Speaker 31 James Palmer, welcome to New Horizons Monday.

Speaker 28 And am I correct?

Speaker 59 I don't know if they make $40,000 skis, but I'd love to ride them if they did.

Speaker 59 Probably have rocket boosters on the back or something.

Speaker 7 I don't know what they do.

Speaker 35 James Palmer, of course, is the insider for Underdog.

Speaker 14 And also, you could catch James and Steve Smith on the 89 podcast.

Speaker 29 And James, you've been very busy

Speaker 47 all over social media and the reporting. So I thought, why don't we get together and we'll kind of go down the rundown of some of the things we're hearing and you share what you got for us.

Speaker 20 Is that what?

Speaker 7 That works. Let's do it.

Speaker 59 Let's get together.

Speaker 50 All right. Let's do it.

Speaker 43 Let's start here with the situation in New England.

Speaker 70 Of course,

Speaker 48 Robert Kraft makes the decision to fire Gerard Mayo.

Speaker 13 All sorts of connecting of the dots is going down over this.

Speaker 24 Let's listen to Kraft, by the way, who spoke and continues to share his absolute pain and misery about firing his head coach Gerard Mayo after one season.

Speaker 71 I'm going to be very brief here and say

Speaker 71 this whole situation is on me.

Speaker 71 I feel terrible for Gerard

Speaker 71 because I put him in an untenable situation.

Speaker 71 I know that he has all the tools as a head coach to be successful in this league.

Speaker 71 He just needed more time before taking the job.

Speaker 71 In the end,

Speaker 71 I'm a fan of this team first.

Speaker 71 And now

Speaker 71 I have to go out and find a coach who can get us back to the playoffs and hopefully championships.

Speaker 26 All the messaging from Kraft is weird to me, James.

Speaker 1 Just like

Speaker 1 strange, strange vibes of Patriot way.

Speaker 47 And this is a day we learned that the Patriots requested to interview Lions offensive coordinator Ben Johnson. But of course, it's Mike Vrabel that everyone is connecting the Patriots to.

Speaker 26 Jeff Howe reported that he has his assistants lined up prepared to go with him, and he is interested in that Patriots vacancy.

Speaker 15 What are you hearing around the Patriots after their move?

Speaker 59 Well, first, Jeff's pretty accurate there, but at the same time, he's been a consultant, Vrabel has, for the last year. He's had some time to put a staff together.

Speaker 59 It's usually what you do on a gap year. Like, you work on these type of things.
You already have some, obviously, coaches you'd like to work with, executives you've liked to work with as well.

Speaker 59 I don't know that's a deal-breaker for Mike, but he definitely has all of these things in line, which he hasn't had a job essentially this past year.

Speaker 59 So, yes, you can have the time to be afforded to do some of those things. So that's true.

Speaker 59 You would assume that they acted as swiftly as they did, where I don't believe Mayo even had an opportunity to speak to the team and you have your press release already drawn up within a, what, an hour, hour and a half of your final game, that you knew you were going to move quickly.

Speaker 59 And to me, this aligns with the Mike Vrabel train is on like a

Speaker 59 a $40,000 ski type speed down the track right now. So to me, you feel like you got to operate a little bit quickly if, you know, Mike is obviously a key candidate.

Speaker 59 Personally, I know they're going to look at everything and they should, and they should look at a variety of candidates and they should make sure they check all the boxes because they haven't been through a head coaching search in a long, long, long time.

Speaker 59 But I don't think you move on from Mayo unless you really are pretty keen that you can land Mike Vrabel.

Speaker 11 But then if you're,

Speaker 11 they want to talk to Ben Johnson and a few others. Like, is any of this to be taken seriously by any other human? Like, they know who they want.
And

Speaker 11 for me, like,

Speaker 11 that's what they did with Mayo. Like he said he wanted him for five years and he knew it.

Speaker 11 So it's two times in a row where you're bringing in what are ex-patriots part of the Patriot way without a really, I guess, robust or wide net of who might be more modern and even better than some of these guys.

Speaker 59 Yeah, and I would say the funny part, honestly, Mark, it's like, it's this.

Speaker 59 You don't ever talk about like, oh, we got him before he was ready, unless you're a coach that came in as part of a succession plan.

Speaker 59 Like, I don't think that sentence is said in the early portion of a head coach failing, going, like, we got him too soon. Like, it's not, that's because of the setup that they put themselves in.

Speaker 59 Now, I get what you're saying, and there's enough sham interviews that go on in the NFL that really aren't worth a damn at all.

Speaker 59 But I do think the Patriots do understand they'd be doing themselves a disservice if they didn't genuinely look at other candidates for sure. Like, you have to.

Speaker 59 And I think they know they have to. But I think the draw, and I want all of you guys, it really is, as I call around, it is Mike Rabel and Ben Johnson.
And then there is the next group.

Speaker 59 And so you would behoove yourself to interview Ben Johnson for sure.

Speaker 59 But you do want to make sure you see everything that's available to you because you haven't done the process and you need to do the process.

Speaker 14 More reporting around this.

Speaker 31 Mike Giardi, who's been covering this really well, a former colleague at NFL Media.

Speaker 35 I have talked to a half dozen league execs today and all believe Mike Rabel will be the Patriots' next head coach.

Speaker 18 Not surprising.

Speaker 48 Connor, what are you hearing about this?

Speaker 22 I think,

Speaker 22 you know,

Speaker 22 same as James, where, you know, I think that there's two things going on here. I would assume that the crafts were legitimately bothered by the reaction locally to Mayo.

Speaker 22 I mean, there was fire Mayo chance when they're getting blown out at home by the Chargers. And I think that Ben Johnson is the market favorite.

Speaker 22 I think a lot of people there want him to be the next head coach. And so if you're the crafts, you do that two-tiered search, right? You look at Mayo.

Speaker 22 I think they moved fast because of Mayo, but I think you look at Johnson as well. And let's not discount this.

Speaker 22 I think this is probably going to be one of the very few places that Johnson interviews, right? Very true. It's not going to take a lot of these interviews.

Speaker 22 But I will say this.

Speaker 22 I would not be surprised if we see a Vrabel

Speaker 22 and some kind of old favorites that come in and make this more palatable for people, like a Josh McDaniels, maybe coming back and being offensive coordinator or in some, you know, kind of bigger offensive picture role.

Speaker 22 So I think that Vrabel has a lot of steam behind him, especially if this thing gets rolling.

Speaker 59 I think that's spot on, Connor. And I know Josh is one of the names that he has kind of on his list of OCs that he would possibly look at in terms of what Vrabel's looking at.

Speaker 59 I also think, and I had this conversation, and I wanted to kind of monkey wrench this into this conversation because this is a good spot for it.

Speaker 59 And I thought it was a great conversation I had this past weekend with a former head coach that is in this head coaching cycle right now

Speaker 59 that

Speaker 59 has already had interviews requested for him. So he is in the middle of this cycle.
And he told me something really interesting. And to me, this is part of the New England thinking as well.

Speaker 59 Because Robert Crafty looks great up there. Suit looks great.
Pocket square, just perfectly placed in there with the way the reverse plum looks goes.

Speaker 46 Black t-shirt under the dress shirt doesn't bother me at all.

Speaker 7 No, it doesn't bother me. I do like it.

Speaker 59 It doesn't bother me at all. He's always had pretty

Speaker 55 good gave me a pause, but it was on my radar as well.

Speaker 25 Well, I don't know.

Speaker 59 Maybe he didn't tan like this week. And so the salad wasn't as dark as he liked it to be.
So So he had to throw the t-shirt on underneath.

Speaker 59 But it's this, how many more head coaches is he going to hire? And the conversation I had with this potential candidate is this. Second go-around head coaches are very in vogue this year.

Speaker 59 They were last year. And Dan Quinn and Jim Harbaugh and Raheem Morris.
And you look at these guys come back around.

Speaker 59 The idea is they learned a lot in the first go, and they have the opportunity to turn things around much quicker.

Speaker 59 And in my opinion, Robert Kraft wants this thing turned back into a winning caliber franchise that

Speaker 59 we all know it as quickly as possible because that's what they're used to. And what this coach told me was: Ben Johnson is a great play caller.
He might be the best play caller in football this year.

Speaker 59 But he said, there is zero chance he will be the play caller next season as a head coach that he's been the last couple of years in Detroit because it is impossible to be that when you are the head coach of a football team.

Speaker 59 Somebody is knocking on your door every five minutes, whether it's a coordinator or an assistant or the training staff does it about three times a day.

Speaker 59 The PR team, you just don't have the time he said to scheme and tinker the way you do when you're just a play caller so he said it's not against ben it's all guys going into their first year as a head coach you are not the same caliber play caller what he's also saying in this is you have all of these other skills that you have learned to turn things around quicker that you go through some of those missteps that you've gone through in the past in terms of hiring a staff, the interview process of hiring your staff.

Speaker 59 Vrabel knows all of these things.

Speaker 59 And I think there's an allure there with him in this cycle and specifically in New England because you check all of those boxes and your turnaround in a lot of people's eyes is much quicker because those things that Ben's going to learn and other people or first-year head coaches are going to learn are avoided when you make this type of hire.

Speaker 52 Moving over to another AFC East team, the Jets, of course, they fired Robert Sala way back in October, and now they are ramping up their search.

Speaker 47 They have really cast a wide net.

Speaker 49 Ben Johnson's not on their list of requested interviews

Speaker 14 because Ben Johnson's not going to go to a team that doesn't have a quarterback.

Speaker 7 But everyone else is on it.

Speaker 59 I don't see that fit market-wise for Ben Johnson either.

Speaker 31 No.

Speaker 11 Interesting. That's a good black hole.

Speaker 19 Okay.

Speaker 6 So, Mike Vrabel, Ron Rivera, these are the coaches that have requested to interview or the Jets have requested to interview.

Speaker 19 Mike Vrabel.

Speaker 7 Who do we have?

Speaker 17 Ron Rivera, Brian Flores, Aaron Glenn, Josh McCown, Joe Brady, Matt Nagy, Arthur Smith, Brian Brian Greasy, Vance Joseph, Mark Sessler, Bobby Sloek, and Rex Ryan.

Speaker 14 And speaking of Rex Ryan, Rex is convinced he's going to get this job.

Speaker 20 God loves Rex.

Speaker 16 And I wouldn't put anything past the Jets at this point.

Speaker 13 He's convinced he's going to get the job. He was on the D Pietro and Rothenberg show on ESPN Radio, and he made it clear that Aaron Rodgers, his shenanigans, wouldn't fly on his watch.

Speaker 64 I'm saying this. I just painted a picture on why you wouldn't, if you were the Jets, why you would have paused on bringing them back.

Speaker 64 And clearly, when you have a guy that doesn't show up for mandatory minicamp, and by the way, he's your quarterback coming off an injury, I think that's an absolutely ridiculous message you sent to the team.

Speaker 64 And so, you know, obviously, if he comes back, things would be different.

Speaker 64 If he's back, it ain't going to be

Speaker 64 the country club, you know, show up whenever the hell you want to show up. That ain't going to happen.
So I'll just leave it at that.

Speaker 59 Do they have a pool at this country club?

Speaker 59 Would people be walking barefoot, pool side?

Speaker 59 Yeah.

Speaker 35 You know what's crazy?

Speaker 56 Like, I wouldn't hate Rex as the DC of the Jets. You know, he tried to get the DC job of the Cowboys,

Speaker 18 but obviously not as head coach.

Speaker 36 What are you hearing around the Jets?

Speaker 47 I think it's widely believed that the Vrabel interview was essentially Vrabel using the Jets to get the Patriots to fire Mayo.

Speaker 25 Like, is the Jets' job

Speaker 27 someone a job that they're going to fill easily?

Speaker 59 It is a mess. Like, it's an absolute mess.
And I've heard that from candidates at both the GM and the head coaching spot. But the cool part, maybe it's cool, I don't know,

Speaker 59 that was said to me by both type of candidates is,

Speaker 59 but if you're part of the turnaround,

Speaker 11 I've heard

Speaker 11 rounds like 14 times.

Speaker 59 It's so weird that there's like this allure to it. Like, I talked to a GM candidate who was like, like,

Speaker 59 it's a real mess, man. I don't even know if I want to, but if I'm part of the turnaround there, like

Speaker 50 that's something.

Speaker 59 I mean, yeah, he's like, that's something.

Speaker 39 I'm Theo Epstein.

Speaker 7 It's a big deal.

Speaker 63 You don't get caught up in the lore of what you can be.

Speaker 53 But yeah, many, I mean, I always go back to on our show when we had Sauce Gardner on, you know, an hour after he was drafted.

Speaker 31 And I told him, hey, Sauce,

Speaker 44 it's been a real tough ride for us.

Speaker 37 And he was one of the many, many players and coaches that I don't care about the past.

Speaker 8 we're starting something new we're changing something you know flat flash cut to about a week from now when we learn that sauce gardner wants to get a trade out of new york like there is there is a lot of work to be done here i i i i like the

Speaker 40 i like the idea of aaron glenn former jet you're not alone the guy that might have a connection to the team and uh speaking of aaron glenn i want to play this um this came from sean payton uh in his uh media availability In fact, it was on my radar based on a tweet from one, James Palmer.

Speaker 18 This is what Sean Payton had to say about Aaron Glenn coming off the performance by the Detroit defense in their division clinching win over the Vikings on Sunday night.

Speaker 72 You know, you watched the game last night, and the best interview Aaron Glenn could ever give was for three hours last night.

Speaker 72 There's not one thing he can say or do to a GM or an owner that was more impressive than that game.

Speaker 9 Absolutely.

Speaker 31 We talked about that last night, James.

Speaker 15 So Glenn is a name that I keep coming back to where who would be up for the job who knows the history of the team and would be able to bring something that the team desperately needs, which is some credibility and a little bit of a stiff upper lip.

Speaker 59 Yeah, Glenn's on that. By the way, what Sean said, was it Pete Rose that he went into a job interview with his baseball card? Like for a manager?

Speaker 59 I think he brought brought his card and was just like, that's more hits than anybody. I'll be here on Monday.

Speaker 16 My job.

Speaker 59 Like, I think he brought his baseball card to an interview. But yeah, I know ties are important.
Ties to the region are important.

Speaker 59 I look at a number of names that definitely have ties there.

Speaker 59 Like, Borganzi is Mike Borganzi, the Chiefs Assistant General Manager, to me, kind of has some allure there with what he's been a part of in a culture that has been established for a number of years and has been aware of how kind of the top of the group in terms of head coach can do it, how a front office has evolved and changed, which that was an archaic type of

Speaker 59 group when he got there before Ken Dorsey, I believe, when he was in Kansas City, and kind of watch a front office grow and become more innovative and learn kind of the nuances of how you run a team from that side of things.

Speaker 59 Like, I think that's appealing, and he has ties to the Northeast. And I think he played at Brown, I want to say.
So he's just kind of like that area and whatnot.

Speaker 59 I think that stuff matters in this search. But I do think when you mention, like we all do, the mess of things,

Speaker 59 you need to have a clear plan on how you're going to do both those things. And you have to be curious about the patients.

Speaker 11 One quick question is we've got the Mike Tenenbaum, what, 33rd team.

Speaker 11 I think one of the reasons this massive laundry list of names we all recognize is because there's essentially a search for him doing this for the Jets.

Speaker 11 But then are you back in the world where like, and it's not just a Ben Johnson thing, but like pair Aaron Glenn with the GM that someone else picked?

Speaker 11 Like it goes against once a thing where this relationship matters so much. And that's the one concern I have.

Speaker 59 I mean, I totally agree. I think they need to come in together.
I think this is one of the few opportunities where you have the ability to get that alignment. Like

Speaker 59 it's not out yet, sneak preak, but like I just did a thing for Underdog

Speaker 19 about

Speaker 59 Trent Bulky staying in Jacksonville. That dramatically changed the perception of that job across the landscape of the league.

Speaker 59 Like I was talking to multiple people on Saturday who were like, that's the best job available. You have a culture that is not bad.
It's not in a bad place.

Speaker 59 It's not nearly in a place to where the Jets are or the Bears are.

Speaker 59 You have a quarterback. You have decent players.
You have skilled players. You have like a lot at your disposal.

Speaker 59 Once Trent Bulkey was kept, that changed the perception of a lot of people with that job. So that plays right into what you're saying, Mark, right?

Speaker 59 Like you would want that alignment with GM head coach almost as like in unison. And I know some of the candidates have talked to one another.

Speaker 59 Like some of the GM candidates that are up, and some of the head coach candidates that are up there have spoken to one another.

Speaker 59 And that's maybe where you get some of that alignment that you would need in a place like the Jets.

Speaker 47 And we'll finish here.

Speaker 14 So the Bears have requested interviews with Ben Johnson, Aaron Glenn, Mike Kafka, the Giants OC, Cardinals OC, Drew Petzing, Cowboys head coach Mike McCarthy,

Speaker 54 and your thoughts on that.

Speaker 47 The Bears, Ben Johnson is taking interviews with the Bears and Patriots.

Speaker 56 So we'll see

Speaker 14 how all that goes.

Speaker 54 But the McCarthy of it all, do you expect McCarthy to be back with the Cowboys?

Speaker 46 And did this raise your eyebrow at all with the Bears?

Speaker 28 Or is this just kind of how it goes?

Speaker 59 I love the Bears doing this. I think the Bears are making it known on day one.
Like,

Speaker 59 we're interested in you. We know this is probably going to get shot down immediately, but it's out.
Like, it's out for you to know, Mike.

Speaker 59 It's out for all of us to know that we would like to speak with you. Because I do think, and I feel like I'm the only one talking here during this segment, so everybody,

Speaker 59 do you guys feel like,

Speaker 59 I feel like Mike McCarthy should be evaluating staying with Dallas as much as Dallas is evaluating Mike McCarthy staying with them? Like,

Speaker 11 well, especially if there's interest from beyond.

Speaker 59 Yeah.

Speaker 55 What if,

Speaker 60 yeah.

Speaker 22 Jerry Jones pulled the most Irish guilt mother move, which is that, well,

Speaker 22 you know, they're asking about interest in Mike McCarthy elsewhere. And it's like, well, we want people who want to be here.
And it's like, you've done nothing to show him that you want him to be

Speaker 22 four seasons, including not renewing his contract and then holding him hostage for the last two weeks, you know?

Speaker 59 Yeah, I completely. I think with the Bears, though, too, if Ben Johnson is taking that interview,

Speaker 59 it's pretty telling to me because there are so many common opponents in terms of film between the Bears and the Lions that he has probably watched enough common defenses to where he's seen enough Caleb Williams filmed just by what he's studying to think that there's enough to work with and he'd like to work with Caleb Williams.

Speaker 59 To me, because of the number of common opponents, shows me that he wouldn't mind working with him as a quarterback and he sees something in Caleb Williams. And I think that's telling.

Speaker 59 The question would be,

Speaker 59 there are plenty of people in Detroit that will tell you he is a close-the-door, tinkering mad scientist.

Speaker 59 With the cultural issues that they have in that locker room, specifically on the offensive side of the ball, how does he tell the Bears how he'll fix those aspects outside of just working with the quarterback?

Speaker 59 Because I think that's higher on people's list than people think.

Speaker 7 Higher on the Bears list than people think.

Speaker 68 Yes. Am I picking up some signs that Ben Johnson might be like an Adam Gase all-star a little bit?

Speaker 11 Is his personality cut out for the big chair?

Speaker 22 Well, so it's interesting you brought that up, but when

Speaker 22 was the last time we had a head coaching candidate that we talked about for three years before he was hired? And it was Adam Gase.

Speaker 22 But I think Ben is the right fit somewhere. It's not a big market.
I mean that's why we talked about Jacksonville. Ad nine.

Speaker 7 I thought that was a great fix.

Speaker 22 Smaller market. Quarterback is there.
You can bring in the GM. And I will say that I think that Ben, the staff that he has in mind is almost like Kyle Shanahan, right?

Speaker 22 It's comprised of maybe some slightly more dynamic people that are going to fill in the culture gaps that maybe Ben already understands that he's not going to be able to do.

Speaker 22 But one quick note on Chicago, the thing that I keep hearing coming out of that search is like, we need a dude.

Speaker 22 We need like, and I, you know, like they keep describing this Captain America type individual where it's like, you know, and I'm sure that the Dan Campbell effect has something to do with that, where it's like, we need a guy that can come in here and take this building by the throat, which is why I kind of went cold on.

Speaker 22 Ben to the bears for a moment. Now, Ben can be that guy.
I think he could, certainly, but we don't know that.

Speaker 22 And when you have guys that you already requested, like Brian Flores, who you know is going to do that, he's an alpha. He's going to come in and change things.
It's like, I don't know.

Speaker 22 This search has all of a sudden become very interesting to me.

Speaker 59 I feel like Connor just described a head coach that tells me who I'm talking about, that probably has a long cut Copenhagen in this pocket and a long cut Copenhagen in this pocket.

Speaker 59 And they're going to go head-to-head, O-line, D-line, sans pads, and just smash heads.

Speaker 24 Who is that guy?

Speaker 59 He was Mike Rabel.

Speaker 11 That's super mad. He would fit.

Speaker 55 Yeah.

Speaker 59 And somebody that also would not be deterred by that media group at all in Chicago. No.

Speaker 20 Like, Mike would brush them off.

Speaker 8 Wouldn't it be funny if after all this drama around the Patriots the last 24 hours, Rabel doesn't even end up there?

Speaker 50 James, you've said not all, but a lot.

Speaker 59 Oh, so I will say it all real quick before I leave because I know I got to jump on the radio, but I will say this.

Speaker 59 The big news that nobody, I think, is talking about on Monday morning was Lou Anarimo getting fired and the number of head coaching candidates that were like,

Speaker 59 they have been very interested in bringing him along as their defensive coordinator. There's several that are very interested and wanted his availability and where they end up possibly going.

Speaker 5 So Lou.

Speaker 4 Captain Lou will land on his feet, it sounds like.

Speaker 59 Does he land in New York?

Speaker 59 Do they change DCs? Does Shane go with Vrabel and then the DC job in New York is open, and Lou winds up there, back where he's been

Speaker 59 and Staten Algonquin? It was a DB coach there, Connor, I think, right?

Speaker 11 Yeah.

Speaker 11 So

Speaker 7 connect the dots.

Speaker 7 Those are connected to the dots.

Speaker 65 Didn't he also coach under Dan Campbell? And if Aaron Glenn gets hired off somewhere, maybe that's a call Dan Campbell looks at making.

Speaker 7 Greeny!

Speaker 59 You. I mean,

Speaker 59 he will be without a job very shortly. I mean, it will not be a very lengthy deal for Lou.

Speaker 16 Thank you, James.

Speaker 7 Lou.

Speaker 7 Lou.

Speaker 7 Lou.

Speaker 31 All right, we'll take a break and we'll be right back with a little playoff injury update.

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Speaker 11 Stick a fork in them!

Speaker 31 Ah, yes, feels like a good time before we get into the quick playoff injury updates.

Speaker 57 The fork committee, which met twice, once in late October and again two weeks later, we forked approximately one-third of the league by the time we were done with our hearings.

Speaker 17 And I don't remember this ever happening before, Mark.

Speaker 25 And I really do think this speaks to that this was kind of a weird year.

Speaker 68 There's always a team or two, or sometimes three, that gets off the mat and surprises us.

Speaker 18 And this year, a couple teams came close, but nobody did.

Speaker 25 So the Panthers, the Patriots, the Titans, the Jaguars, the Raiders, the Giants, the Saints, the Cowboys, the Jets, the Bears, the Browns, all forked by us, and none of them came back to cost us, which means none of us have to make a charitable donation.

Speaker 41 So big victory.

Speaker 11 I mean,

Speaker 44 we still could as a group

Speaker 11 commit to some charity, but

Speaker 58 that's TBD.

Speaker 27 I'm just saying within the rules of the game.

Speaker 37 And I don't know, does that mean that we played it too safe?

Speaker 28 You could argue that.

Speaker 42 I know there's some discourse online that we did, but you can't force.

Speaker 18 For instance, we never forked the Bengals.

Speaker 25 I think that was the right decision ultimately because

Speaker 7 of the season.

Speaker 25 Yeah, like, so that was right.

Speaker 14 Everyone forked the Bengals back in October.

Speaker 61 And it doesn't mean like you nailed it.

Speaker 47 In fact, you got lucky. It's just the way it bounced at the end.

Speaker 37 Is there any team that we, looking back, we should have forked?

Speaker 23 Maybe there were a couple, but

Speaker 65 I'll give one that was in. So we forked 11 teams.
Those 11 teams make up 11 of the first 12 draft picks in the final draft order.

Speaker 65 So that means we did a pretty good job at picking out which teams to fork.

Speaker 65 The one team that is in that top 12 that we did not fork is the 49ers, and they were pretty injury-riddled, but there were some signs midway, three-quarters of the way through. I could live with it.

Speaker 11 That would have been like a kind of a look-at-me type of move, though, I think, when we did this, right? I mean, right,

Speaker 24 absolutely.

Speaker 56 I could live with that because they deserved the benefit of the doubt at that time of the year.

Speaker 61 And, you know, they just never put it together.

Speaker 27 And we didn't foresee that McCaffrey was going to come back and then immediately get hurt again and all the other injuries they dealt with.

Speaker 12 So that's okay.

Speaker 11 One little note, though, because, like, I mean, the first team that we forked confidently was the Panthers.

Speaker 11 And this entire list, like, they kind of ended the year with a little more pizzazz than you ever would have imagined. So, you know, it's not dark news for every one of these teams.

Speaker 44 That's true.

Speaker 9 That's a good way to look at it, Mark.

Speaker 21 On New Horizons Monday, you've really

Speaker 31 put a bow on that conversation.

Speaker 18 All right, before we sign off, let's go quickly through some playoff injury updates.

Speaker 31 Starting with Eagles quarterback Jalen Hurts, who remains in the concussion protocol as we inch closer to super wild card weekend.

Speaker 16 They got a big game on

Speaker 5 Sunday, I believe.

Speaker 58 Is it Sunday?

Speaker 45 Eagles

Speaker 52 and Packers. So Hurts is in the protocol.

Speaker 54 Not a cause for panic yet here, Conman, because this is just part of the process.

Speaker 8 He wasn't cleared before last week.

Speaker 31 They haven't really started practicing until today.

Speaker 57 So we'll learn more.

Speaker 52 I guess by midweek, if he's still in the protocol, then you start to wonder.

Speaker 46 But right now, yes, there's nothing to really pull from that, right?

Speaker 22 Yeah, I would be incredibly stunned if he's not out there on Sunday.

Speaker 22 I guess the only thing that you would be concerned with in some way, shape, or form is if he's not comfortable throwing and there's any kind of rust at the beginning of the game.

Speaker 22 But even then, a good coordinator will build in some easy throws to get him confident early in the game, and you can get around stuff like that.

Speaker 47 The news is not so good for Packers wide receiver Christian Watson, who it looked like he suffered a serious knee injury, and indeed he did. He tore his ACL in the season finale.

Speaker 15 He also suffered other damage in the knee and a non-contact injury.

Speaker 20 And Matt LaFleur said, you know, his availability for the start of 2025 is in some doubt.

Speaker 8 So a really tough injury for Watson, who had a role on this offense, as we talked about, and that's something the Packers now have to get by.

Speaker 51 The news was better around the quarterback position.

Speaker 15 Jordan Love and Malik Wilson were both banged up in that game.

Speaker 13 And LaFleur said in his Monday availability that he thinks that both QBs are, quote, going to be okay.

Speaker 57 Also, somewhat okay, Ravens wide receiver Zay Flowers, who didn't look so hot, his lower body injury in the season finale on Saturday against the Browns, but he is now being labeled officially by the Ravens as day-to-day, and he could be in mix to play this weekend.

Speaker 15 Big one, Mark.

Speaker 47 That's a key, key piece of that offense.

Speaker 14 Maybe even the Jenga piece of that offense, the passing game at least.

Speaker 47 So if Flowers could be on the field, even as a diversion, that would be a big deal for the Ravens.

Speaker 11 Yeah, and we talked about on Sunday night's show that there's an element to Flowers that the Ravens, I mean, really almost historically have never had at that position.

Speaker 11 He's their first pro bowler, and he just adds something for Lamar Jackson, and it kind of can scramble and confuse the defense. So it's huge.

Speaker 11 I think, you know, one team here is losing a key wide receiver, another potentially gets one back. That's a doorway closed and a doorway open, potentially.

Speaker 4 And finally, we mentioned this on Sunday night, but just now it's official.

Speaker 12 The Rams lose running back Blake Coram to a fractured forearm.

Speaker 16 His season is over, so the Rams backfield gets a little bit thinner ahead of their playoff matchup against Mark.

Speaker 11 The Rams.

Speaker 11 Hold, sorry, I was literally texting him. Gotcha.

Speaker 35 Gotcha.

Speaker 59 Yes.

Speaker 7 Woo!

Speaker 30 Oh, boy. The Tampa Bay Buccaneers.

Speaker 11 I know, but I was like literally in a tech. I'm trying to go somewhere like five minutes after the show, and I was trying to sort things out.

Speaker 1 I got you, Richard.

Speaker 11 All right. I'll even let you keep that in because I'm a good good sport, but that was just a mess.

Speaker 7 Yeah, incredible sport.

Speaker 70 Incredible sport.

Speaker 56 All right, that's it for New Horizons Monday.

Speaker 41 A lot of information we got to you.

Speaker 4 That's what this is about, keeping you up to date.

Speaker 15 And we'll be back on Thursday, right, Justin?

Speaker 56 With our preview of Super Wild Card weekend and, of course, anything else that develops in terms of the coaching searches and hirings, firings, all that stuff.

Speaker 11 I'll go confirm what the games are for that Thursday show before I.

Speaker 7 You'll be ready. Yeah.

Speaker 56 You'll be ready. So, next time you hear from us, it will be with Jordan and Mike.

Speaker 34 Connor, good luck this week, sir.

Speaker 22 We'll see you after the Packers and the Eagles, baby.

Speaker 7 Let's go. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1 Well, on the Patreon, we're going to see you on our Friday fun show.

Speaker 7 But I hope.

Speaker 7 Absolutely. All right,

Speaker 39 we'll see you then. All right.

Speaker 53 And thank you to everybody for watching and listening.

Speaker 1 Till next time, heat the call.