Caretakers Need to Care for Themselves with Seth and Lauren Rogen

I come from a family steeped in talking about your feelings. My family can't stop talking about it.
No, they cannot. As much as you would wish, they are incapable of that.
I just knew I was completely incapable of dealing with this. And I was just like, this is like a professional level of grief and something that you need to have gone to school to understand how to navigate this kind of thing.

And that was very helpful.

That was the one that was like, I love you.

I'm happy to hold you while you cry,

but you need a professional.

And I did.

I really did, and it really helped.

This episode is brought to you by Kologard and Pinesol. Hey, you.
Hi, Craig. How are you, Michelle? I'm doing pretty good.
Good. We're back at our nice Airbnb taping out here on the West Coast.
It's so beautiful out here. I know.
Good weather. Coming from, it's like East Coast doesn't, you know, weather's a little chilly.
In the Midwest, it was, we had our coldest week and it hit down into the 30s, which isn't that cold for us, but it's cold. I know.
But when you live in cold weather, you know how in Chicago, if it's been zero degrees or below zero, 40 people are like going to the beach. It's like 40 degrees and people are like, it's hot out here.
So I feel like I've lost my cold weather edge. I'm kind of a wimp.
Yeah. People who live in the Midwest don't know DC is warm most of the time.
Yeah. Yeah.
That's one of the reasons why we like it there. I get it.
I mean, you get pretty good weather. You get all seasons, but the summers are hot and swampy.
So it's good to be in L.A., and it's good to be with you. It's so fun to be with you.
I'm just having a ball doing these. But today we've got, you know, we're talking about some tough stuff.

Some tough stuff.

We've been dealing with.

Yeah.

And, you know, we're going to talk about people who are dealing with family members with Alzheimer's.

And, you know, I was talking to the crew before we got started.

And, you know, you talk about our Uncle Terry, our great Uncle Terry, and we didn't know what Alzheimer's was or dementia or anything like that back when we were younger. But we've been fortunate.
We haven't had to deal with this like some people have. Just to give listeners some context.
So we grew up in a multi-generational household.

Robbie was our piano teacher.

She was like the piano teacher

for the entire neighborhood.

And Uncle Terry was kind of this distinguished gentleman

who one thing stood out with Terry's,

like every day he wore a suit.

Coat and tie. And suspenders with a brimmed hat.
He would wake up every day and shave. He was very regimented.
He would eat prunes every day. I remember that distinctly.
Stewed prunes. Right.
Didn't know why. Now, as I get older, I understand the stewed prude situation.
He was ahead of the game. He was ahead of the game.
But just setting the stage for as he aged, and he lived into his 80s. 80s.
And both he and Aunt Robbie started to age as we grew up and became, I think it was by the time we were in eighth grade, it seemed like middle school age when Terry really started exhibiting signs of dementia. You know, it came in the form of nighttime just confusion.
So the things that we remembered growing up was always at night because sometimes he started getting up and walking and reliving things. And at first I thought it was nightmares.
Yeah, we always thought it was nightmares. And we only noticed it at night because during the day, mom and dad would handle things and not worry us with it.
But at night, you couldn't help it. But realize that he would get up in his pajamas and leave the house sometimes with no shoes.
And then the search would be on, where is Terry? He got out and Aunt Robbie was getting older, so she didn't know what to do. So our parents, our mother and father essentially became caretakers for them.
And looking back, they were in that sandwich generation where they had young kids that they were raising, not a lot of resources, two really wonderful people who were aging right before their very eyes. And my mom,

who was staying at home, she would take care of Robbie, bathe her, organize her food. Dad would

take care of Terry, make sure that he was still shaven. It was really a sweet image to have our

father, who himself was disabled. Just to remind our listeners, our dad had MS and walked with a limp from the

time we knew him and it got progressively worse.

And he would limp his way downstairs and bathe Terry and shave him and get him out of bed.

And, you know, it got to a point where he would ask me to go down with him to help him because it was getting hard for him to do it. And it was really an eye-opening thing for me to see.
Well, they made it look easy, our parents did, in this multi-generational household. But now as we're adults and look back, I mean, we just went through caring for mom.
And she fortunately never went through any dementia, but she got to the point where just sort of physically she needed more care than she wanted. And just the anxiety that comes with that, you know, just realizing that that's what mom and dad were dealing with, with no money, needing to work every day.
And I can tell you, we never talked about this, but I did feel a little lost because I felt like I didn't have mom's attention in a way. I didn't want to say that out loud, But I know when I think back on it, I felt, wow, she was exhausted.

And I felt her exhaustion in the form of like she wasn't there for me in the same way. She would cook dinner, but then she'd have to go down and do something for Robbie.
Or at night, she couldn't sleep because Terry would get out. It just, you know, I think now that I look back as a kid, I felt that loss.
See, I never knew that, and you're right. We have never talked about that.
And, you know, I was your typical boy, so I didn't, I felt like mom was doing what she had to do.

So whatever I wasn't getting, I sort of just thugged through it. Well, so many families, and we're going to talk about this more, are in that same kind of crunch with aging parents, young kids, a sort of healthcare community that isn't really prepared to support families in this process.
And we are going to spend some time talking about that more today. Yeah, and we have the perfect couple to help us with that.
We've got Seth and Lauren Rogan with us today, and they have some history with caring for a parent who's had Alzheimer's disease. And so I'm really interested in that.
And for those of you who don't know, Lauren is a screenwriter, producer, director, actress, and most of all, a philanthropist along with Seth. And Seth really doesn't need any introduction, but he's also a fine actor and a funny person and writer, screenwriter, producer, director.

But I want to welcome our guests,

Lauren and Seth Rogen.

Come on out, gang.

Hey, guys.

Welcome to the table.

So happy to hear you.

Thank you.

So happy you're here.

It's so nice to meet you.

Very excited to chat with you guys.

Pleasure.

All right. Come on in.
We have not officially met or had an opportunity to spend time together. And, you know, I'm a fan.
Thank you. Me too.
Thanks. Thanks.

But it's just sort of amazing to know that people we see and come to love, to hear about their lives outside of the work that they do and the things that make them famous. Our topic today, all-time areas, aging parents.
I mean, you guys have lived it. And, you know, in addition to all the things you do in the business, you know, you, you're, you're making a difference in, in people's lives.
And so I just am grateful for the work that you do and just thankful that you guys are here to share some of that with us. Thank you.
Thank you for saying that. That means a lot coming from you.
So thank you. So how are you guys? We're good.
Yeah, we're pretty good. You know, it's crazy times and busy and, you know.
You're working on some good fun stuff lately. Yeah, lots of stuff.
I've been very fortunate to be working a ton.

We're producing a movie together, actually, about Alzheimer's, actually.

A young woman caring for her mom with Alzheimer's,

based on a graphic novel about a young woman caring for her mom.

Yeah, and it's great.

It's an animated film that's very sad and funny,

and Julia Louis-Dreyfus stars as the matriarch character who has dementia.

What made you decide that animation was a good way to go?

Honestly, I was the book itself. It really captured the caregiving experience from a young person's point of view with humor and a lot of deep sadness.
And it's black and white, hand-drawn. Wow.
And there's something sort of very poignant, I think, about that visual. And how was it for you guys in the process of making it? Did it take you back? Oh, yeah.
How did you manage it, just getting through the project emotionally? Yeah, well, we've been working on it since 2016.

It takes a long time to get a movie made.

I am learning. And then to make a movie.
It's hard. Especially an animated movie

that is not expensive.

We were recording last week

just with Abby Jacobson

and recording some

of the more emotionally heavy

scenes and definitely, you know,

there was not a dry eye in the recording studio. Oh, I bet.
You know, but it's, in a way, it feels so good to tell a story like this in a way that, like, I think is very, it's not going to hit you over the head with sadness. No, it's very entertaining.
Yeah. It feels good to take something so sad and turn it into something that is meant for, ultimately, yeah, for enjoyment and entertainment.
And although it's a sad movie, I think it's very uplifting and poignant. And yeah, it's a very nice creative exercise in that way.
But we don't talk a lot about Alzheimer's. And as Craig and I were sharing earlier, like growing up, we didn't even have a name for it.

You know, it was just sort of Terry got out.

That's what it was.

And eventually our grandfather rigged the house with buzzers and locks.

And so it became less a discussion about the disease or the issue because it wasn't known as a disease and it was just the process of containing him. Yeah, it's a disease that carries so much stigma, dating back to when you guys were experiencing firsthand as children and people didn't really know and were really scared and would look at someone with dementia and have so much fear.
And I think in the decades that have followed since then, I think that that stigma has lessened, especially in the last five or 10 years, I think. It feels like in the last decade, there's been like a seismic shift in people's understanding of Alzheimer's and like willingness to even talk about it.
When we first started doing charity in the Alzheimer's world, like nobody wanted to talk about it even. And getting people with Alzheimer's to speak and to kind of come forward and share their experience was very hard.
And even people who had family members didn't want to talk about it. It was, yeah, we've, I think, personally seen Alzheimer's kind of start to go over that hump from being something like no one talks about to being something that, like, people seem more willing to talk about, right? Yeah, and even in the early years of my mom's diagnosis.
Because she was early onset, so she was very young. She was very young.
She started showing signs at 52 and then was diagnosed just before she was 55. So, you know, and she had, unfortunately, we had all witnessed my grandparents, her parents have dementia.
And so in those early years, my mom herself was ashamed and didn't want us to talk about it. My mom was a teacher.
She taught elementary school for 35 years, first grade for most of that. And then to go from this woman who was an active teacher with children every day to someone who eventually was a shell of herself over a close to 18-year journey was, you know, a long, long road.
But not talking about it in the beginning because of that stigma, because of that fear that she had, that we all had, didn't help anyone. Didn't help me, didn't help her, doesn't help the overall cause.
And so eventually, you know, as storytellers, we just kind of had to talk about it. I couldn't keep it in any longer.
And for better or worse, my mom's disease advanced. And so, you know, but I think once we started sharing our story was when I started to feel like I had any type of control over this thing that I didn't actually have any control over.
And I just want to, Lauren, how old were you when she was first diagnosed? I just wanted to get a sense of where were you in your life when you started losing your mom. Yeah, just before I turned 25.
So really young. Yeah, I was at my college graduation when I was 22 that she repeated a story a couple times throughout that weekend.
And because of what I had seen with my grandparents. You knew what it was.
Yeah. But I didn't say anything out loud to anyone for close to, I guess, a year and a half after that.
And then eventually we were dating at that point and my parents came out to visit. And it was very clear to me that this was happening.
And I dropped them off at the airport, and I came back to Seth's apartment. And it was the first time I had said it out loud to anyone, like something is going on.
You said it to Seth. I said it to Seth.
And he was like, she seemed fine. Yeah, of course.
I didn't really know her. I didn't know her.
He didn't know her. I didn't know her at all, really.
What do you mean? She's great. And I was like, you're over it.

Yeah, it was one of the first times I met her.

She's a cool lady.

Yeah.

She's funny.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But, you know, soon it was obvious that, unfortunately, this was our path. well you know um another story i think about is how mom and dad trained us to work hard.
You remember the chores? Oh, yeah. We had chores very early on.
Very early on. That's another thing, I think, you know, one of the best things that our parents did for us is...
Real work. Real work.
Real work around the house. And what I mean by real work is I had, my chores were to clean the bathroom.
I cleaned the bathroom. What are you talking about? We alternated.
We alternated weeks. Okay, because I loved cleaning the bathroom.
And I didn't, but I had to do it. Mom wanted us both to know how to have a clean bathroom.
But my every weekend job was cleaning those stairs. Oh, that's right.
Yeah. We had 14 stairs.
Notice I remember how many there were. Yeah, you had to.
Yeah. That went from our apartment down to our great aunt Robbie's apartment.
And this is what I remember how many there were. Yeah, you had to, yeah.
That went from our apartment down to our great-aunt Robbie's apartment. And this is what I remember about Saturday morning.
You remember that tin pot that we used to have? We had a tin pot, a pot now that used to be on the stove, which was now used for cleaning. And you put a little soap, dish soap in it

and then you put pine salt in it.

Nothing like pine salt.

And there was nothing like that smell.

Like when you came home from school

and mom had been mopping

and you could smell the pine salt.

It was usually Monday

because she had laundry on Monday.

You come home from school

and it smells like,

ah, new house.

Yeah.

And I have to say that I still to this day, when I'm mopping, if we don't have that pine oil smell. That's it.
That's it, isn't it? That's it. And here we are in adulthood, and they're a partner of ours on this podcast.

An appropriate partner. How about it? So when you get a chance out there, visit pinesol.com and find out where you can shop for your pine salt.
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And before we get to the question, I want you to tell us about Hilarity for Charity. Yeah.
We, you know, like I said, we spent the first few years feeling scared and sad and didn't know what to do. And then eventually we were just like, I have to start talking about it.
So we went to a few events and then a friend came to us and it's like, let's, let's throw a variety show and we'll raise money for Alzheimer's in honor of your mom, which was incredibly moving. And up until that point, this was in 2012, 12, I felt very alone.
I was like, I'm the only young person dealing with this. And of course, I was horribly wrong, which I luckily was wrong because I wasn't alone.
And there was, for better or worse, a community of young people who were dealing with it. And so I think that helped to sort of form the idea of let's create something where young people can have a voice and they can feel like they are part of giving back.
And like I said, having some sort of control over something that they don't have control over. And so we just sort of looked at our own situation when we started raising money as an organization.
And we're like, how can we actually help people today in this moment? And we were finding with Lauren's mother who was progressing that like, it was one of these things in life where like money just made it better. Like, and like, you know, it's, it's unfair when those things happen and you don't, you know, it's not like you want to look at a kid in the face and be like, money can actually fix some major problems.
It won't, it cannot buy happiness, but it can for sure alleviate stress and stress and angst, you know, and the sense of impending doom, you know. And yeah, we had, around the clock, we were able to buy, like, a duplex for Lauren's mother and father, and he lived in one side, and she lived in the other side with, like, 24 hours a day, seven day a week care.
And we just saw like, oh, this has made everyone's lives so much more manageable. And that was really part of the inspiration for like, what do we do with the money we are raising? Maybe we can help alleviate other people's problems.
Yeah, so that's how we started our grant program in which we provide respite care to people who are caring for their loved ones at home. And we read applications every month.
And the stories are unbelievably real and often quite sad and dire. And people are doing everything they can with what they have, but it's often not enough to care for someone with this disease.
And they need help. They need respite.
They need a break. And so that's where part of our money goes into awarding these respite grants to people who are caring for their loved ones at home.
We also created a lot of support groups. I was part of a support group for young people.
The first support group I went to was like just a general group. And I remember there was a man in there who was in his 50s caring for his mother, who was probably in her late 70s or 80s caring for his mother.
And I was just like, that's sad, but I'm 23. We're in drastically different boats.
And so actually the woman who ran that support group was one who created this group for young people. And it was people under, I think, 35.
And that really showed me community. Being with people who understand exactly what you're going through is so helpful and can really, really get you through a tough situation.
So we made a lot of different support groups, made them accessible. We were doing online virtual support groups since 2014, long before the pandemic and Zoom.
And so doing that. And then, of course, we have a lot of programming for caregivers symposiums.
We do a large virtual event every year. All throughout the year, we do virtual learning workshops for people and created what we call like the five brain health tips.
So it's getting good sleep, eating well, exercising, emotional wellbeing. So, you know, being active, being loved, doing therapy, meditating, and then learning new things like being mentally fit.
So new hobbies, being socially active, those types of things. And they've talked that it's different from like some people think puzzling and things like that, but they're learning that that's not necessarily the same thing as learning a brand new skill.
Exactly. Yeah.
Like they say crossword puzzles, look, it's probably better than staring at the television. Exactly.
But yeah, if you're doing a crossword puzzle, you're accessing what's already in your brain. You want to learn new things.
So like we took up pottery, I'm now doing Duolingo and just always trying to keep your brain learning and growing as much as you can. And we created online coursework called HFC Universe.
And the first level is taught by Seth and some other fellow celebrity professors. Yeah, Quentin Brunson, Kristen Bell, and yeah, some other people.
Is that the brain teacher? Well, here's what's funny. We actually did...
It's like, okay. This is sad, what I'm about to tell you.
We did a scientific study that was published where me and the neurologist, Richard Isaacson, both taught the same coursework to kids. And we proved definitively that young people learn things better from celebrities than from actual doctors.
Wow. It's not a...
No, but it's good to know. It is good to know.
I know. So whenever someone's like, why are you doing this? I'm like, because science has told me you will retain it better if you hear it from me.
The only thing, I wish that worked with voting. Yeah, exactly.
I mean, it wouldn't be think. And not to bring us down, but that was the hope.
So, no, not at all. Lauren, does he make you call him Dr.
Rogan now? Exactly. Only sometimes.
Only sometimes. So, what do you teach it? Teach us something.
Well, again, I think it's the things Lauren's talking about. Sleep is actually one of, I think, the things that, especially in our culture, you've been conditioned to deprioritize sleep.
Exactly. What a terrible phrase.
And you're frying your brain in the process. Yeah.
It's true. And that's something that I think is very easy.
And it's good news. That's one of the few good ones.
Most people like, to be told, like, prioritize your sleep. I'm a big fan of sleeping.
Oh, it's great. Bedtime is my favorite time of day.
That's like Lauren. Literally, as you got into bed last night, I was like, this is my favorite time of day.
I am this. And you talked to Barack.
I'm just like, oh, it's over. I know.
And he's like, there you are. You know, we got our puppy.
It's just really. But yeah, no, it's funny, because so many people are like, how could I sleep better? My sleep is terrible.
And it's like, well, you actually can if you work on it and you bring in some tools and aids. We have a cooling pad.
I have a weighted blanket. I have the best mask.
We do white noise. I have cooling sheets.
300 things. But because I do track my sleep, I see that doing those things legitimately increased it.
Sounds like that would keep me wide awake.

Yeah, exactly. It's a little stressful.
You do get a score. Now, like, it's like they've gamified it.
So, yeah, like, I get a sleep score, which does, in the middle of the night, I'll be awake. And I'm like, my score is plummeting.
And every morning, we're like, what'd you get? I know. I had a pretty good score last night.
This might be a good time to hear our question from our listener because let's help them get some solutions. So we have Natalie, who's our producer, will read the question and then we'll have at it.
I'm sorry, Natalie. You are involved.
Yeah. She wants to pretend like I'm not here.
Hi, Michelle and Craig. My name is Nick and I'm 38 years old and I live in Miami, Florida.
I have an elderly mother who's recently been admitted to an assisted living community due to her Alzheimer's disease progressing beyond our family's care. But the road to getting there was tough.
For several years, my dad and I were her primary caregivers. Well, my dad was her primary caregiver, taking care of the house, cleaning, cooking, and then I was my dad's caregiver.
I'd grocery shop for him, make sure he was eating properly, come over to watch the game, but that often meant I was leaving my own wife and young son at home a few nights a week. Now my relationship with my wife is suffering.
She's very understanding of my situation, but we lack any real time together outside of going to work, taking care of our house, making sure our son has everything he needs. And then recently, in one of our weekly visits to see my mom in her new care facility, she introduced us to her new boyfriend that she met there.
The only problem is my dad is very much in love with her and dedicated to her still. We know in our heads that this is the disease taking its effect, but we're having a difficult time watching my mom turn into someone that sees me and my father as, quote, the assholes out to ruin her relationship with the love of her life.
And now I'm left wondering, after all these years of strain, what will the emotional fallout of all of this be? My dad's sense of himself without my mom and his heartbreak at what's happening at the end. I'll continue to be there for him, but my own home life has suffered so much for so long,

and I know my wife and son deserve so much more. In the midst of it all, I haven't even begun to try to come to terms with the fact that my mom is no longer the same person that raised me and supported me through the best and worst moments of my life, and soon that she won't be here with us at all.
How do we even begin to come together again as a family

when we're all exhausted, already devastated,

and have no real time to take care of ourselves?

How do we move forward, each of us, successfully from here?

Thanks for your thoughts, Nick.

Ooh, Nick.

Keeping it light.

Nick's going through it.

Welcome to the show. Yeah, exactly.
And thank you again for the animated film. Yeah.
We will need it. It'll help us a little bit.
Yeah. Yeah.
Wow, that's a lot, Nick. There's a lot to unpack there.
Well, I think one of the things that we learned early on is, I remember because Lauren's father was taking care of Lauren's mother and was very resistant to getting help. I think especially generationally, it's like, and his parents had, you know, like there had been things in his family where people had been put in homes and I think he was not thrilled with how that was.
So he was very insistent on kind of bearing the weight of it. And one thing we learned was that often caretakers die before the person they are taking care of because of the physical and emotional toll it takes on them.
And that was something we were like seeing happen in real time, basically, you know? Yeah, very much. It was very, my parents were in Florida at the time.
We were in Los Angeles. And it was very clear that the strain that was on my dad as her caregiver was not good.
And it was so heavy and so immense. And so— It was one of those things where, like, he was in it.
And we would, like, leave and come back every once in a while. And I think, like, the three months that, you know, didn't seem like things had gotten much worse from his perspective.
And then we, you know, because we, again, were coming and going, we'd come back and be like, oh my God, like this is so bad. And how did that manifest in actually, what were the stressors that you saw? Yeah, yeah.
Well, so my mom, you know, early onset is, well, so Dr. Isaacson will quote him and say like, if you've seen one case of Alzheimer's, you've seen one case of Alzheimer's.
So it really does affect everyone differently. Although, of course, there are some things that, you know, are a bit more universal.
So my mom just started getting more and more difficult, resistant to help. She also would wander.
She would walk around the house from sunup to way past sundown. And just scream.
And eventually she started screaming for hours, walking around and screaming. She also would walk out the door.
My dad had to sort of put paper over the windows to cover up what was outside to try to keep her inside. And the toll it was taking on was huge, as I said.
And we often felt like when we tried to step into Caregiv, there was resistance because he really, he was her caregiver. And he felt like he had like a system.
He was like, I know how to work the system. You guys are messing with my system.
So not from your mom, but actually from your dad. Oh, yes.
It quickly, you know, after the first couple years, it was clear. I would say by the time she was 58, 57, maybe she had to retire from teaching.
Maybe 56 even. And then by, yeah, by 58, 59, she really needed care.
She was still mobile at that point, but it was pretty hard to get her to focus or stay calm in a lot of moments.

And so I was in therapy at the time, still am. And my therapist was like, well, if your dad is the primary caregiver, then you should be your dad's primary caregiver.
So sort of like, you know, what our... What Nick has said is, you know, when someone is the primary caregiver and they are showing that they are taking the lead, then as the child, it was very helpful to me to know how I could help.
You know, before it was like, I don't know what to do or how to help. So it was like, how do we make this easier for my dad So then he can help my mom.
But there's also the nuance of like, when do you kind of force them into doing things they don't want to do? Because like, because yeah, like you hope people will arrive at what is the right decision on their own. Yeah, but that doesn't always happen.
That does not always happen in the amount of time it needs to. And so I feel like there was a moment where we were like, it was my dad actually who has no filter whatsoever.
It was. It really was.

We were like, it was my dad actually, who has no filter whatsoever. We all went to their house in Florida for Thanksgiving.
And my dad was just like, he talked with his eyes closed and he was just like, you have to move out of this house and you have to move to California and you have to not be alone here. Like he's like, this is an excruciating situation for you.
It's excruciating for your children. It's just getting worse and worse.
And he's like, there's absolutely no excuse to not leave and to come to Los Angeles, basically. This is one of these issues that even transcends the Alzheimer's issue.
It's dealing with aging parents, period. It was one of the challenges with my mom, who, again, was always independent, but there was a level of pride in her.
And even though we had the resources, she resented the help that we were. And so then I found myself sort of in a reverse parent-child relationship.
Oh, for sure. Because getting her to stick to the diet she was supposed to have or trying to make sure that she was being nice to the caregivers, I could empathize with her, feeling like she wanted to maintain as much control, but she was making it hard.
And this is with resources. So a lot of families are dealing with this kind of stress of aging parents not really being able to let go and doing it because they don't want to be a burden in their minds.
Absolutely. But don't realize how much harder they're making it emotionally for people by not getting help.
Yeah, pride is a tough thing sometimes, I think, you know, and sometimes makes things better and sometimes makes things worse, you know? Yeah, and I think, you know, my mom, having seen both of her parents go through it, and my dad witnessing my mom's parents go through it, They saw a lot of things they were obviously scared of and didn't want to repeat. Per Nick's question, I'll share my grandfather, my mom's dad, when he was older, his onset was sort of in his 70s.
But my grandmother was having trouble caring for him at home and put him in a nursing facility. And shortly after he was there, walked in and there he was with his new girlfriend.
And I was, you know, I was under 10 at the time, so I don't have a huge memory of it. But I know that it upset her so much that she took him out of that home and put him somewhere else that was unfortunately lesser.
And that move wasn't good for anyone. Yeah.
And wasn't good for him, wasn't good for her. I don't think it was good for my mom or my uncle witnessing that.
And so I think that my dad, when he was faced with it, really wanted to take that history into his decision to keep my mom at home entirely and to bring care in, which is wonderful, but as Seth touched on, not financially feasible for so many people. And so I think it comes back to, and it's so hard, and I can say it and it's easy, but like a level of acceptance.
And, you know, meeting someone where they're at. And my mom early on actually kind of gave me an amazing gift.
Early on after her diagnosis, I asked her one day if she was scared. And she told me that she wasn't scared for her, but she was scared for us.
Because she knew what we were going to be going through because she had gone through it herself. But that I was not to stop my life for her.
And I was not to move back home to Florida. I was not to give up who I was becoming in my early 20s to take care of her.
And I think that, you know, when I think of Nick in this situation, how we talked about his mom is not who she used to be. And I think it's hard, but to remember that, and we're not parents, but to imagine that I assume all parents want their children to be happy.
And ultimately, at the end of the day, that's what they would want. And so you have to, as the caregiver, sort of sit back and think, my mom, my dad, they'd want me to be happy.
And what does that mean? What choices do I need to make in order to still live my own life in the way that my parent would want me to? And so people who are in the sandwich generation who are in the thick of it, right? Like caring for kids, caring for parents, have double duty of care. And it's so incredibly hard to manage that.
And you just have to sort of accept you cannot make everyone happy in every moment. And some days it'll be your mom.
Some days it'll be your kid. And hopefully more often than not, it'll be yourself.
Because that is like the oxygen mask thing, right? You put it on yourself before anyone else. You can't take care of other people if you're not taking care of yourself, which is why ultimately I figured I need to care for my dad so he could care for my mom.
And so I think that you just have to understand your situation and then you look for resources. Unfortunately, our country does not have universal health care as much as we all wish it did.
And the resources for caregivers specifically are not yet,

I would say with optimism, where they could be.

Although there have been strides

and there are actually a few government programs

and state to state, it's also different,

where you can get reimbursements, stipends, et cetera,

for care or even reimbursements for yourself,

taking time off work.

That's a huge thing.

If you're in the sandwich generation,

you're caring for a parent, you're caring for a child, and you have a job. How do you do that? So I'll say we at HFC have, we provide connections to care navigation services.
So I will say that is a huge thing. Go to a professional who can help you, a social worker who can say, okay, this is your situation.
Here's what's available to you. Here's things you can apply for.
Anyone who is, if you're at the beginning, middle, and at any point turning to a professional, a care navigator, social worker, they can really help. And remembering there is no shame in any of it.
And I'm just glad that Nick is reaching out and asking for help. But it begins with making sure that families dealing with the situation start, as you said earlier, start to talk about it.
Yeah. Because you can't get help from something that you're hiding.
No. And it's uncomfortable.
Like the companionship thing is a very prevalent theme

and comes up with a lot of people, as you would imagine.

It is in many ways like the most awkward element of it.

And my grandmother was in a home

and my grandfather was in the same home

and she had like a boyfriend who I think wasn't real,

but she would talk about him all the time.

He lived in California. She was in Vancouver.

She always wanted to go visit him in California.

Was there a reason she needed to have him

They were in their mid-90s by the way.

Yeah, they were just very old.

She was trying to get his attention.

I think she was trying to make him jealous.

They went on the greatest dates.

She would talk about him all the time.

She would say dirty things.

It was wild. She was a funny lady.
But it happens a lot. Or it goes the other way.
With Lauren's father, if I may, Lauren's mother was very advanced in her early onset, but also was very much alive. But he was very lonely.
And his wife, as he knew her was no longer there and the companionship he wanted and um all that was no longer there and so we implored him to try to to start dating like and and that is like also like again it's such an awkward thing to preach and it's an awkward situation to enter into with other women as you're as he'sDate trying to meet other women. And I remember there was a few, because it's like he would say he was married in the application.
He did, yeah. Well, I helped him create his profile.
It's like, you got to work on the profile. Yeah, exactly.
I'm not going to help you. You need an asterisk there.
We put a line in that, like, I think it was at the end and it was something like, and reach out if you don't mind that my wife lives next door. Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, we explained the situation. And, yeah, you know, he went out with a few women at first that, you know, he has some funny stories that I guess I won't share.
Oh, why not? There was a woman who picked him up and drove him, and then when they pulled into the parking spot, she pulled out her handicap sticker. And he was like, oh, I didn't.
And she was like, oh, it was my deceased husband's sticker and I still use it. It's fine.
And it's like, yeah, it's fine. You don't like that.
There was no second date there. Hey, everyone.
Just want to let you know I'm back out here in L.A. and I'm having a wonderful time, especially since I'm staying at an Airbnb.
I'm staying in one in West Hollywood and it is fabulous. The check-in was easy.
The hosts were great. They left us some nice gifts.
Coincidentally, I happened to be out here when my daughter's out here, and she was staying on her own away from her father, checked into a hotel until she found out she couldn't check in. So she came out and hung out with me in West Hollywood at my Airbnb.
And let me tell you, when she saw it, I think she had second thoughts. So we got to hang out a little bit and we did a tour and it's a three bedroom place.
It's got a laundry. It's got a pool.
It's got so, so many nice amenities. And I told my daughter, I said, hey, listen, I know dad's square, but you can come stay with me for a couple of nights.
I'm going to be here till Friday. And she's like, no, I'll take.
She had her own work stuff and her business stuff. And I get it.
I used to be a hotel guy myself. But lo and behold, guess what happened? Just this morning, my daughter called me and said, hey, dad, you mind if I come over and do some laundry? I said, of course.
And she came over and we got to do, she did her laundry. We got to have coffee together, breakfast.
It was fantastic. think.
The next time I come to LA or practically anywhere I go nowadays, I'm going to book an Airbnb because I can tell you, it is so much nicer than staying at a hotel. And I just love the privacy.
I love the room. And more importantly, I love the hospitality.
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That's betterhelp.com. This is a really interesting point that you bring up here because for Nick, he's seeing exactly what you folks saw.
How can we help him help his dad? because I think, I mean, hilarity for charity, what you've been through, you guys are right at the point where you can help Nick today. It's, I don't know Nick's relationship with his dad, but I think some very blunt, honest conversations were necessary, painful, but necessary and actually really move things in a better direction.
Like in our family. Definitely.
Yeah. No.
And, and there was, I mean, I remember my dad and I certainly, you know, it wasn't all, you know, sunshine and rainbows every moment of this, no doubt. And, you know, certainly there was conflict and there was one moment where we had deep conflict and I was like, can you meet me at my therapist? And we had a joint session where we talked through everything.
And that was really helpful to take time to listen to him and for him to take time to listen to me. And I think that, you know, like as the child, you have this sort of like ownership, right? Over your parents.
It's like, well, it's like my mom and it's my dad. But it's like, but it was his partner and his spouse who was with him for, you know, over 40 years.
Well, and you have the vision of what your life, how's it going to end? Of course. My parents had, you know, my dad worked, he was the manager of a manufacturing plant.
My mom taught elementary school. My parents were those people who were saving for this great retirement to travel, to, you know, to live that moment.
And they didn't get it. All those sacrifices and, you know.
And there's a lot of anger, you know, a lot of anger. But to go back to what I said a few minutes ago, you have to have acceptance.
And that is, it is hard. I'm not saying it's easy, but just to sort of remember where you are.
So I think that for Nick, I would say for Nick and his dad, to join a support group. Yeah.
To go on our website and fill out the form. And they won't be in the same group because they're not in the same boat.
And to talk to other people who are in it in this moment, honestly, just being seen helps lower the stress. It just does.
And so that's the first thing I would say. Yeah.
And as far as like the specifics of like his, you know, Nick's mother thinks she has a new boyfriend, like, I mean, that would tell me probably that her dementia has progressed to a point where like. She's not the same person.
She's not the same person. And, and yeah, and her father or his father should, again, I mean, should, it's easier said than done.
He would probably behoove him to start accepting that and not trying to put her back into the box she used to be in, but rather make the hard choice to accept that it is different now and it won't ever be the same. And that's the romantic relationship they once had and that companionship is just not there in the way it used to be.
And he can lament it and he could be resentful towards her and try to stop her from being around this guy who probably makes her happy or he could accept it and maybe do things for himself that offered him some sort of companionship or allowed him to move in a new direction rather than looking kind of backwards at what once was, you know? Well, it's a loss. Yeah.
It's a huge loss that you face every day. Every day.
And it's, you know, harder than actual death because, you know.

The person sitting right in front of you.

Right there every day, you know, reminding you I'm here, but it's still a loss. I'm just curious in your therapy and support groups, is there a way to talk about that, you know, with Nick's dad? Does it help to equate it to a death that, she were actually physically gone, he would be able to give himself the permission to move on with life and to take the steps to keep living himself.
But I don't know if that's helpful. I mean, I think you just said such a key term, which is giving yourself permission.
I think that caregivers, especially when they're caring for their spouse and their parent, these people who are the key influencers in their lives, it is so hard to put yourself first, but you have to. You have to know that that person loves you so much that they would want you to be taking care of themselves physically and mentally.
And Nick's dad is in such a brutal position. And every day to have that anticipatory grief, which is so, so rough.
And to see this woman who he shared his life with and created a family with be different is, it is nearly impossible to accept that. But, you know, you have to, a lot of caregiving techniques stem from improv, from the simple, when you learn improv, the first thing they teach you is yes and.
You know, when someone presents an idea, you don't shut it down. You say yes and that.
And so when Nick's mom introduces her boyfriend and you want to put your head against the wall, you have to take a breath and be like, yes, that's your boyfriend. And also here's your husband.
And we can all sit together and why don't we all have tea together? And it's this huge job to accept. Yeah, the word acceptance strikes me.
A part of this is the acceptance can lead to really dealing with the grief and the loss. And then maybe for Nick, there's a chance to find the laughter in it.
Well, it sounds like him and his wife are having issues as well. I'm glad you said that, Seth, because I wanted to bring that up because, so Nick's helping his dad.
Yeah. He's helping his mom, and he's married and got kids, and they're sort of going by the wayside.
And I'm looking at the two of you and how you deal with it with humor and with pragmatism, and then you start foundation nick doesn't have that any any ideas for nick that we can leave him with yeah nick should go to therapy if he's not already going to therapy i think that honestly like that was i mean we were very young when all this started we just started dating we were both in our early 20s basically um and my my whole family are social workers, essentially. My mother's a social worker.
My sister is a social worker. One of my half-brothers is a social worker.
So I come from a family steeped in talking about your feelings. My family can't stop talking about it.
No, they cannot. As much as you would wish, they are incapable of that.
I just knew I was completely incapable of dealing with this. And I was just like, this is like a professional level of grief and something that you need to have gone to school to understand how to navigate this kind of thing.
And that was very helpful. That was the one that was like, I love you.
I'm happy to hold you while you cry, but you need a professional. And I did.
I really did. And it really helped.
And I think that having that type of person who has studied and knows how to navigate grief, a professional. And they can go together.
Of course, yeah. Just because I think there because I think there's like a stigma around like couples therapy.
It means there's like a problem in your marriage or relationship or something. But like, we've gone and talked to therapists together just about how to communicate about this stuff and how we can help each other and make each other's experience with it better, you know.
And I think that has been very helpful. Yeah.
Yeah, and I would also add that Nick and his dad have put his mom in a very safe situation where she feels comfortable enough to make a friend and find some happiness to herself. That's a great sign.
And so Nick should give himself the permission to let his mom be there and to go to his family and to not worry and not need to physically be there every day. She is cared for.
It sounds like she is well looked after. And so therefore he should take that time and not feel guilt to spend time with his own family.
Because I think that, you know. That's the thing.
I mean, there was a moment where it was just like, do I see her every day? Is it bad if I don't see her every day? Can I take a few days off? Is it okay? It's for sure not the most fun thing to go do. No, like when we were entering like year six since my mom had walked or talked or spoken or cared for herself in any way.
And that is exhausting. And it got to the point where I was like, I can't go every day.
I can't go see her every day. And she wouldn't want me to.
That's right. And I need to protect myself a little bit.
And I think that Nick needs to honestly just be a little more selfish. Well, he's got to protect his kids.
Yeah, exactly. I mean, I shared that when mom was going through it, I hadn't shared with anybody because I was young when she was taking care of our elderly great aunt and uncle.
I was in grammar school, you know, just sort of prime time. And my mother was absent and I resented it.
Yeah. And I didn't resent her, but I resented the situation because, you know, here I was.

And maybe because Craig was a little older and in high school. And I didn't resent her, but I resented the situation because, you know, here I was.

And maybe because Craig was a little older and in high school probably at the time.

Driving and sort of independent.

Yeah, it upturned our household.

So I shared that because for Nick, he's got to think about his future, his family's future, the toll this is taking on his child. And that's not the example of aging that we want to put out there.
No, it's not. And again, go back to like, I imagine it's not what his mother would want.
Right, right, right. Like I think that is such a huge thing that caregivers become so selfless that they forget that they are humans who are alive and living and need to experience joy as well.
And it isn't just about being a caregiver 24-7, because that will not help his mother also. But I think it's like when you're miserable, it's sometimes easier to just be miserable.
And I think people, it's hard to pull yourself out of it sometimes. And if he's just really sad because his mother's sick and he's just in it and his dad is unhappy and like it's almost easier at times to hand yourself over to like the miserable side of things than to try to be around your kids and wife and act like a happy, functional person, you know? And I think that's something that, again, therapy can help a lot and prioritizing your relationship and making sure that, you know, you are communicating with your wife and you're talking about all this stuff and taking time.
I mean, time is the thing that you just need. Yeah, just scheduling time for the things you love or just little things that help you.
Like, neither of my parents were big drinkers, but I remember, like, you know, my dad was going through it. He'd be like, maybe pour myself a drink tonight.
And I was like, have two. Yeah.
I remember one time, short of illegal drugs, do whatever you want. And if you want some illegal drugs, I can help.
And I've got this nice ceramic bong that'll help you out there. To make all that stuff.
But yeah, I think it's, I was so happy on days when Lauren made the choice that she didn't have to go see her mother. Because I was like, that's her prioritizing her own mental health.
And she's not abandoning her mother. She sees them all the time.
We moved them, you know, six blocks away from where we live. They were very close.
But those days where I could just see, she was like, I don't need to do this today. And I'm going to actually maybe try to enjoy myself today.
If you talk about brain health, your brain health, when there is a genetic predisposition, it becomes increasingly more important for the family members of people with Alzheimer's to focus on self-care for their longevity. Oh, yes.
Depression is not good for the brain. Depression and sleeplessness and being distraught and upset, not taking the time to get the sleep blanket and the cold sheets and the meditation and all of it.
It's just the irony of this disease that, you know, you may be closely linked to it because of the genetic DNA. But that means that you can't lose yourself in the caretaking because you need to focus because there is prevention.
Totally. Totally things you can do.
That is the hope, right? Like someone is diagnosed and like, unfortunately, like there is still really nothing that will stop, prevent, or cure this disease other than living a brain healthy lifestyle may prevent it, may delay it. Four out of 10 cases might be delayed or prevented.
That's a lot. And so, you know,

and I spent a lot of years, a lot of time with anger and depression and don't get me wrong. I still do.
I'm a human, but at the same time, I have to remember, like I have to think of myself and the things that are going to keep me healthy because we need to do that in order to hopefully grow old, which is the goal, right?

So that's terrific segue here because we'd like to give Nick something, some tips that would make the sort of give him the power to be the best version of himself and his family. And I've just jotted down a few things you all talked about.
What's on the list? What do we say? The first one is meet them where they're at. Yes.
Yeah. Slash acceptance.
Yes. That was big.
Don't try to convince your mom she doesn't have a new boyfriend. In her head, she does.
Now you got two dads for a little while. And what I love about this is you, we always say meet people where they're at, except when they're sick.
Yeah. You know, we're always trying to fix it.
So I love that. The second one I have here is care for yourself for the caregiver.
Yeah, definitely. Especially like if his mother is in a home, they're feeding her, the people watching her, there's not much you need to be doing.
There were times that I literally would stop and I would see my mom for five minutes. I'd walk in, I'd kiss her on the head, I'd say a thing or two, I'd squeeze her hand, and then I left.
Because that was all I could take, and that felt like enough to remind her she is loved. I feel like we're together.
And in a way, Nick could make a schedule. As Seth said, she is cared for.
He doesn't have to go every day. He doesn't have to go five times a week.
He could go twice a week, once a week, whatever works, so that he is also there to show up for his family. And the next one I have here is seek helpful resources, turn to the professionals.
And that goes with the next one is the family therapy, joining a support group. I think that's all one big category.
Definitely. And we at HFC can help point you in the right direction.
There are a lot of services out there that are there to help people navigate through this. You really don't have to do it alone.
It is such an isolating thing to care for a loved one with dementia, but it doesn't have to be. And one last thing, which you both hit on that we experienced with our mom is, what would your mom want? Yeah.
And that's something that we can all do for our family members. It doesn't have to just be children, but the people who are going to be here after we're gone.
Let them know what you want. It takes the pressure off.
Let's talk about death. Yeah.
We're such a youth-obsessed culture. Like, ignoring death doesn't do anyone any favors.
No. And if Nick, again, like, yeah, a good thing for Nick to think is if he has the choice between going and visiting his mom and spending time with his wife, asking himself, what would my mom want me to do in this situation? And as he said, she thinks he's an asshole.
Exactly. She doesn't want to see him anyway.
Hang out with your wife. Who hopefully doesn't also think you're an asshole.
Don't let it get to that point where she should think she's an asshole, Nick. Yeah, exactly.
We think you're wonderful. Yes.
So take your wife out. Exactly.
Take your wife out on the town in Miami. That's right.
Lots of stuff to do there. Lots of good restaurants.
Well, you guys are doing some great work. And, you know, thank you for sharing.
Thank you for the investment that you're making. Thank you for your vulnerability and your honesty.
Because that's also, you know, normalizing the issue as much as it is not normal and will never feel normal. But talking about it and letting people know that they're not alone.
And again, you know, I just want to say, let's not be afraid of humor in the midst of this. I mean, it gets our family through.
Yeah. I mean, we found that that was like, at first we were very uncomfortable with the combination of comedy and Alzheimer's, honestly, and it felt very inorganic and and then yeah we found that people coming and telling their stories and and and keeping a humorous perspective amidst all this is like so cathartic and helpful and and people like to laugh and can shift gears very easily and can contain both of those things at once.

And so, yeah, humor is helpful.

I don't know if it's the best medicine, but it's a pretty good one.

It's a pretty good one.

I tell you what.

It's a pretty good one.

Thank you guys for being here.

This has been great.

Thank you so much.

Good luck with everything.

And safe travels.

Yeah, be well.