Love the Process with Cynthia Erivo

Speaker 1 Whenever someone says, I want to be like you, and I go, I don't want you to be like me. I want you to be the very best version of you.
So, whoever you are meant to be is who you're meant to be.

Speaker 1 You just have to find out how to be the very best version of you.

Speaker 1 This episode of IMO is brought to you by Progressive Insurance.

Speaker 1 Well, I haven't seen you in a while. I know.
You're looking very rust.

Speaker 1 You know, I dressed warmly because of our first guest because I have so many goosebumps. I was going to get

Speaker 1 diving up.

Speaker 1 Wanted to make sure. Make sure you weren't.

Speaker 1 Stay warm. Well, we are in our new IMO studio, listeners and viewers.
Yeah. What do you guys think of the new digs, huh? It's just, it's a whole new setup.

Speaker 1 Now, there's still going to be some changes, I understand. This is just, you know, first week up getting ready for this series of tapings.
So more to come,

Speaker 1 but it's really cool. I think our crew loves it.
They got more space. They're not all squeezed up.

Speaker 1 They're not jammed in some little room somewhere.

Speaker 1 Some dining room that we've been using. No, this is, and you know, I've even had the

Speaker 1 I had the benefit of seeing this space before it was ready.

Speaker 1 And it has really shaped up.

Speaker 1 And you know what I can really tell? The sound. Doesn't it sound good in here? Yeah, it sounds good.
It sounds professional. Yes, it sounds good.

Speaker 1 Sounds like we're making inroads into the podcasting community. It feels like progress.
It sounds like progress. But yeah, this is a big move.

Speaker 1 Really proud of the IMO team for, you know, I mean, we've really built

Speaker 1 a good year of shows. And, you know, let's take a minute to just thank our listeners and our viewers for helping make IMO, our first season a success.

Speaker 1 And we're just excited to keep it going, right?

Speaker 1 We are. We are.

Speaker 1 It really feels like home now. IMO.
When we're on the set, it feels like we belong here and we're doing some good work and helping folks.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Well,

Speaker 1 we are both excited. You talk about your goosebumps.

Speaker 1 We have got a great guest to help inaugurate our new studios. Yes.

Speaker 1 And we are both very excited. Yeah.
And my sister is talking about Cynthia Arrivo,

Speaker 1 who is a Grammy, Emmy, and Tony Award-winning and three-time Academy Award-nominated actress. Crazy.
Singer, producer, and now author.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Because Cynthia will publish.
Her next book, Simply More, a book for anyone who has been told they're too much. Which, how could anybody tell her that she's too much?

Speaker 1 Well, you all used to tell me I was too much all the time, which we're going to talk about that. See, there, okay, Cynthia, you hear, hear what I'm going through.

Speaker 1 But her book is coming out November 19, 2025, via Flatiron Books. And Cynthia also stars in soon to come out Wicked for Good.
Woo-hoo-hoo. November 21st.

Speaker 1 Because

Speaker 1 Wicked. Yes.

Speaker 1 that was.

Speaker 1 Well, we'll talk all of them. Yeah,

Speaker 1 let's get Cynthia out here. Cynthia, please come join me.
Cynthia Revo

Speaker 1 in the house. Hi, honeybo.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you're good.

Speaker 1 Thank you for being here.

Speaker 1 How are you? I'm doing, my friend. I'm good and good.
Thank you for asking. How are you? I'm great.
I am great. I'm just happy to see you in the flesh.

Speaker 1 It feels like I've been with you because you have been everywhere.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you're everywhere. You're a little bit nuts.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
You know, and I've been trying to make sure that

Speaker 1 I am present whenever I go to places and do things. But it's been a really wonderful year of varied experiences.
Right.

Speaker 1 So any, I feel like all the things I've wanted to do, anything that's been on my bucket list, there are lots of things that I've been able to tick off.

Speaker 1 So we were talking when you arrived to the studio about the just briefly about the last time we were together, which was a little while ago. You were just a baby star

Speaker 1 still in the color

Speaker 1 on stage. That's right.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah. It was the, if I remember, it was the United Nations

Speaker 1 summit

Speaker 1 in September. It was what year was it? Was it

Speaker 1 16. So it was our last,

Speaker 1 one of our last gatherings, and I would host the spouses of the world leaders.

Speaker 1 And, you know, we, as a part of the, I don't know, entertainment of showing off our country, we decided to do some partnerships with Broadway. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And so a couple of the big shows at the time came and performed.

Speaker 1 And Cynthia sang, I am here. That's right.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 killed it. Killed it.
Left everybody in tears.

Speaker 1 But that was, we got, I got a chance to hug you. Yes.

Speaker 1 I still have that picture. I do too.
Oh, my goodness. I do, too.

Speaker 1 I do. I do.

Speaker 1 Well, we're going to talk about a whole bunch of things, but I want to talk about your book. Yes.

Speaker 1 And I want to, my first question is,

Speaker 1 it just being so accomplished, what prompted you? to write your book now as opposed to some other time? Like when you were 70.

Speaker 1 well because i i knew that i wasn't going to be writing a biography necessarily because i i didn't want it to be that because i do want to write that when i'm 70.

Speaker 1 that's that is for them but i i think i i realized i had learned a lot up until this point and i i think i'd been writing so many speeches and giving speeches and and they they kept connecting with people that i thought i if I could find a place to just

Speaker 1 explain and share my thoughts and feelings and and lessons that I've learned up to this point, that might be really helpful.

Speaker 1 Because it seems that when I put some of that, impart some of that in the speeches, it connects.

Speaker 1 So I thought, well, if I can just put it in one place where everyone can have a listen, not just the people in the room, that way I can share a little bit of insight.

Speaker 1 And not necessarily a how-to, but how I did.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's what makes this project so special, simply more. Yes.

Speaker 1 Because it isn't a memoir.

Speaker 1 uh it's it's really it's it's it's like getting a peek at your diary yes um just sort of walking through your life and how you've thought about things um and i i think it's important for listeners and viewers to understand that this book is really

Speaker 1 um it's a it can be a workbook yeah in life and i love the way at the ends of each chapter

Speaker 1 there's a question there's a there's a message um craig noticed because he read the book too

Speaker 1 that there's also poetry,

Speaker 1 which is just hearing your thought process, your creative thought process. It's really a beautiful sharing gift.
Thank you. Thank you.
And I wanted it to be that.

Speaker 1 I remember when I started, I knew that I wanted it to feel like something you could pass on to people. If you read it and you wanted to give...

Speaker 1 a gift to someone that it felt like a gift and it's easy to digest but it also makes you go back and go actually i do need to answer that question for myself.

Speaker 1 Or maybe I haven't thought about that question before, or maybe no one's asked me that question.

Speaker 1 And so I've put in things that maybe I haven't been asked, but have asked myself and have wanted to ask others. I'm, I, I am so opposite in the creative realm.
I mean, I grew up an athlete and

Speaker 1 my family's creative. Misha's really creative.

Speaker 1 And we've talked about this. Like she, she, when she was six years old, she used to write in a spiral notebook short stories that way.
Yeah, I did

Speaker 1 our family up. Well, we got to find them because

Speaker 1 well, we had them bound, and this is the trouble with you know, living your life is the first family. There's so many moves, and so much of our life was out of our control.

Speaker 1 I can't find the book now because it was bound with some of the stories. And I think I got lost in one of the many, many moves.
But yeah, but it was a high comedy.

Speaker 1 Like we would be sitting as a family and she'd be reading the story. My mom and dad would be laughing hysterically.

Speaker 1 And I would be more laughing at them laughing than at her writing.

Speaker 1 I didn't really get it at the time.

Speaker 1 But that kind of creativity is just awe-inspiring to me.

Speaker 1 And I think of it kind of like athletically. Yeah.

Speaker 1 How do you practice?

Speaker 1 How do I practice?

Speaker 1 Well, strangely enough, it's for me, it's like training. You do it often,

Speaker 1 you continue to do it, and you try and find ways to better it. You try and find ways to expand.
I'm listening to others. I'm reading other things.
I'm reading other poetry.

Speaker 1 I'm, you know, taking in, if it comes to TV and film, I'm looking at other actresses and I'm learning, like educating myself on what there is, just so that there's always inspiration.

Speaker 1 The well is never empty, you know? And I think that's what, because I understand what you mean as an athlete, because

Speaker 1 I think of myself as an athlete as well.

Speaker 1 And I know that it takes training to get to the point that you want to get to. And I think that is applied to everything.

Speaker 1 I always say, if I stop using my voice

Speaker 1 to sing, it won't work for me anymore. So every day there's a little bit of singing.
Every day I hum. Every day I do a scale.
Every day I warm up.

Speaker 1 Just so that the next day, if I have to sing a song, my voice is already ready. Didn't have to.
I would just love to live with you.

Speaker 1 Because then I would i would absolutely

Speaker 1 singing all the time and being like

Speaker 1 she's singing in the end

Speaker 1 i think that's why i can't sing because if i could sing i would be singing all the time you see i'd want this people say this but you'd be surprised because because you sing so much because you'd have to sing sometimes those moments where it's silent

Speaker 1 you just are and and and And it's quite, I have music going on in my head all the time. And so the quiet is quite nice, you know, when you don't have to.

Speaker 1 And your voice needs a rest sometimes, just like your body does. Yeah.
But we were talking about my childhood and how much, as you could hear, my family's support. Yeah.
You know,

Speaker 1 when you get that positive feedback from. the creative process

Speaker 1 you just you just keep going yeah um and that makes me think of of your childhood i mean something that was just beautiful to to read about was your amazing upbringing.

Speaker 1 And you heard the banter that we had about being too much.

Speaker 1 I mean, when you, in your book, you described how you have been described as sometimes too much. Yeah.

Speaker 1 It was the same thing for me, you know, too loud, too bossy, too, you know, and it was a joke in our family, but, you know, it was still this feeling of, well, I think I'm just fine.

Speaker 1 Cynthia, she was bossy. But so was I.
Yeah. Were you? Exactly.
I was. It was very bossy.
Yeah, that's what Capricorn's, you know, and the other thing I read about what you said about Capricorn. Yes.

Speaker 1 It's like, I'm probably like you as a Capricorn. I don't necessarily buy into

Speaker 1 the, I shouldn't say buy in. I just don't focus on

Speaker 1 Zodiac

Speaker 1 and all that. But when I read about a Capricorn, you're like, I'm like, oh, yeah, that is me.

Speaker 1 Write a lot. And, you know, other people being a little bit mad because you're right.
And sometimes that's the too much.

Speaker 1 People don't necessarily like because we're observers, we see a lot, we pay attention to a lot, we listen and don't necessarily speak.

Speaker 1 So, you, if you're really paying attention to a Capricorn, you'll see what they're thinking on their face because they won't necessarily say it out loud until it's necessary to say it out loud.

Speaker 1 And when they say it out loud, it's been thought about, and usually it's right.

Speaker 1 There you go. Yeah, I can't.
But your, but, but your upbringing, your

Speaker 1 Yeah, let's get back to that. Tell us about

Speaker 1 South London. Yeah.
Stockwell. You know, I went back there a couple of days ago.
I was in London. I was filming something and

Speaker 1 we had a bit of an afternoon off. And so as we were going from one set to another, we had lots of space in between, which never happened.
So I asked if we could drive past my old home in Stockwell.

Speaker 1 And we parked up for a little bit and just sat and watched and looked.

Speaker 1 And I talked about where where i lived and what the place was like and um it was really wonderful actually i lived in a little masonette that and what's a masonette it's like a a

Speaker 1 big historic building that's been converted into a set of flats um so it's like council building but uh they've converted it and i lived with four other neighbors.

Speaker 1 One lived opposite and then the two lived downstairs. And then it was sort of of connected to another building.

Speaker 1 And we all sort of lived together. If my mum needed help, then she'd go to Tayo, who was next door, or Sharon or Clive downstairs.

Speaker 1 And we all sort of looked after each other.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 I never felt too much with them. They all were so kind and

Speaker 1 sweet. And so there's this really wonderful sense of community within that building.
And then within my home, my mum kind of knew before I did what I was going to do and always just encouraged it.

Speaker 1 All she really wanted was for me to work as hard as I needed to get what I wanted. I don't think she ever, nothing is a surprise to her.
All of this isn't surprising to her at all.

Speaker 1 And she,

Speaker 1 which is why she's sort of in her element currently, because she's sort of like, well, I knew it was something was going to happen.

Speaker 1 There was no choice.

Speaker 1 At 18 months in a baby book, she kept a baby book for myself myself and my sister and it sort of marks uh milestones when i first started walking when i first started speaking uh when i first had literally solid food anything but also she put in there what she thought i would be and uh at 18 months she thought i would be a singer and an and a doctor both wow singer and did she say what did she see in you at 18 she said she hums when she eats

Speaker 1 on on key

Speaker 1 hums when she eats. We'll be a singer or doctor.
Wow. Because I was also good at like picking information up and

Speaker 1 I would like playwright. And it might be scribble, but I was still really interested in work.
And I still write in cursive. When did you start getting feeling these messages of you're too much?

Speaker 1 Because it wasn't happening in your life. No, it was when I went to school.

Speaker 1 When I went to school,

Speaker 1 I think first at primary school,

Speaker 1 towards the latter part of it, that's when I started like feeling, oh, I guess, I guess there's, I got, I'm doing too much, I'm too loud, I'm too bossy, I talk too much, all of those things, because I was never told I'd talk too much.

Speaker 1 My mum never told me that. My mum never told me not to ask questions.
So I would ask all the questions and she would answer them.

Speaker 1 And I was always curious and I wanted to, I knew how to cook by the time I was 11, like because I was always in the kitchen with her, like all of those things.

Speaker 1 So by the time I got to school, it was very odd because now all of a sudden the things I had learned didn't make sense and people wanted less of it.

Speaker 1 Um, and that's that's I think the first time that I thought, oh, I don't, I don't fit necessarily.

Speaker 1 Um, but I think it was so uh stubborn that I didn't want to, I didn't try to. It's like, I'm good, I'm fine.
Yeah, what's wrong with you people?

Speaker 1 Sounds familiar. Yeah, it's like you guys need to get your acts together.
Yeah. Yeah.
Why are you so insecure? Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Why aren't you doing more?

Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.
It was, I was, when it was always when I was in a class, I remember there was a mathematics class I was in,

Speaker 1 and I

Speaker 1 didn't understand the equation that was being asked of us. So I just asked the question, I don't understand what this is.
Can you please explain it to me?

Speaker 1 I don't understand why this is happening here. And I just kept asking when I didn't understand.
And so they moved me out of the class.

Speaker 1 So what that meant was that I was falling behind because I wasn't able to be in the class that I was meant to be in.

Speaker 1 And all it was was that I was asking too many questions and she thought I was talking too much.

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Speaker 1 So, your mom saw that light in you. She very much did.
She had 18 months. She wrote down

Speaker 1 the doctor singer. Yes.

Speaker 1 When did Cynthia know Cynthia was going to be that person? Because I think for a lot of young people,

Speaker 1 they don't have the confidence of pushing through that first level of

Speaker 1 rejection. Registered rejection.

Speaker 1 However you want to put it. For you, when was that where you were like, oh, a couple of moments? Yeah, I had a couple of there was when I was five.
I, I, it's interesting.

Speaker 1 I always start with this because it was so uncomplicated for me when at that age. I had, I'd been asked to sing Silent Night for a nativity play.

Speaker 1 I was playing as Shepherd. So I still to this day don't know why they asked me.
And I think it's because I had the confidence to do it.

Speaker 1 That's, I don't know if even think they thought I had a great voice. I think I just

Speaker 1 wasn't shy.

Speaker 1 And I, and I remember singing the song and I remember seeing smiling faces and I remember people clapping afterwards.

Speaker 1 And I knew and I understood that that was a measure of joy that people had experienced that came from me.

Speaker 1 And it was that clear. Okay, well, I want to keep doing that.
Whatever that is that makes people

Speaker 1 joy

Speaker 1 respond in that way, I would like to continue doing it.

Speaker 1 I think it wasn't until I was about 11 that I really knew that I had something.

Speaker 1 I was really good at English and I was really creative and I was writing all these stories and I was singing on the playground and people kept asking me to sing.

Speaker 1 So I would sing with like a couple of friends and we would be on the playground. It would be us and they would come and we could do little shows.
And then I went to like a little,

Speaker 1 I guess it was like a...

Speaker 1 performing arts sort of extracurricular short-term thing and we we did a play And I remember being able to imagine everything around me. And that sort of was that moment where everything clicked.

Speaker 1 Oh, I'm good at this. Yeah.
This is what I meant to do.

Speaker 1 And that was at 11. That was about 11.
And, but then you start to, you, you explore it and think, oh, how, how far can I go with all of it?

Speaker 1 And I've had different moments in my life where it's been reconfirmed.

Speaker 1 Even when I've had the little doubt, then it's been reconfirmed again. And, and one of those moments is when I had a strange moment when i was about 18

Speaker 1 where i just stopped singing

Speaker 1 i don't know what it was but i had it was it's very hard to to sort of

Speaker 1 get yourself into into the business and i think i had

Speaker 1 i think i had sort of lost a little bit of my spark and My mom realized I wasn't singing and she just

Speaker 1 walked past one day, randomly on the way to the kitchen, and just said, I hope you're still singing.

Speaker 1 Didn't say anything else.

Speaker 1 You're still singing, aren't you? I said,

Speaker 1 Well,

Speaker 1 I guess I am.

Speaker 1 Because I think it was just the fact that she had noticed

Speaker 1 sort of woke me up that it wasn't just a thing that made everybody happy. It was something that made that made her happy too.

Speaker 1 Like it's something that connected with her.

Speaker 1 Parenting right there. She put some pressure on you.
I mean, that was what she was doing.

Speaker 1 We call that jiu-jitsu parenting. She knew it, you know.
It's like, you know, and you just bow and say, thank you. Thank you.

Speaker 1 Thank you very much.

Speaker 1 What does it feel like? to be so good at so many things. Because again, I come from the sports side, the male side.

Speaker 1 We're all dying to be the Michael Jordan or the Lionel Messi, or we want to be the best of the best.

Speaker 1 And it's really no one can be. Yeah.
Because everyone's themselves. That's why.

Speaker 1 Say that again, please.

Speaker 1 No one can be Michael Jordan or Lionel Messi because they already exist. Right.
Michael Jordan exists. Right.
So does Lionel Messi. Right.
That is for them.

Speaker 1 What it is, and I have to say this a lot to... to younger people is that whenever someone says, I want to be like you.
And I go, I don't want you to be like me.

Speaker 1 I want you to be the very best version of you. So, whoever you are meant to be is who you're meant to be.
You just have to find out how to be the very best version of you because I'm already me.

Speaker 1 I exist already. And I don't know.
I've never thought about being

Speaker 1 so good at so many things. I know.
Because I think I'm a constant student.

Speaker 1 I'm like, yeah, I'm always learning. Can you talk a little bit about that process for you so that our listeners can get a feel of it? If you think of it like

Speaker 1 a mountain,

Speaker 1 but it's constantly growing. But you can only see each peak from where you are.
You think you've hit the top. It's like, oh, there's another mountain.
There's another one.

Speaker 1 And that doesn't necessarily mean that this is a mountain of difficulties. It's just another set of things that you have to learn

Speaker 1 and that you have to explore. So you get to that peak and you go, well.

Speaker 1 There is the choice to stay here because it would be quite nice. And the view is really lovely from here.
I could just stay.

Speaker 1 I mean, it's beautiful here. I could stay here.
It's delightful. The air's lovely.

Speaker 1 It's great. I can just be here.
I've got my supplies. I don't really need to go anywhere.
Got your thermos. However, yeah, my tea is still hot.
It's great. However,

Speaker 1 what is up there?

Speaker 1 The choice is, can I stay here? Yes.

Speaker 1 Do I want to know what's up there?

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 1 Well, then have to scale it then. Yeah.
And that's what it feels like. You can be good at any number of things.
You can be better at any number of things.

Speaker 1 You can be amazing at any number of things, but that keeps going.

Speaker 1 I don't ever think you ever get to the real true peak. Because if you do, then what's the point? Then you have to stop.

Speaker 1 And I don't think I ever want to be the person that has learned everything and knows everything. Right.
Because then I. And there's nothing left to learn.

Speaker 1 There's nothing left to explore, nothing left to find. And I'm constantly finding new things.
I'm constantly rediscovering myself as a performer. I'm constantly learning new skills.

Speaker 1 My voice, for me, is one of those things that keeps proving to me that there's more to learn. So much of learning are these peaks of development

Speaker 1 and

Speaker 1 that require failure and learning and wisdom that there's no way you can have. You can't skip a step.
No.

Speaker 1 And,

Speaker 1 you know, learning to find the joy in that process. That's the idea.

Speaker 1 That's it. And that's what young people today.

Speaker 1 I'm just speaking to my son who happens to be here. Oh, you have to

Speaker 1 love

Speaker 1 the process.

Speaker 1 And I love it. Yeah.
I really do.

Speaker 1 It's clear.

Speaker 1 I really have found joy and enjoyment in the learning process. The doing is like the extra cherry on top.
The bit before where I can figure things out. I'm learning.

Speaker 1 I'm decide how do I, well, how am I going to do this? How did this work? Maybe I'll do it like that. Maybe I'll do this song here.
I'll take this song apart.

Speaker 1 And that for me is where the creative process actually really lives

Speaker 1 because

Speaker 1 the thing that is complete is what comes from the creative process. Yeah.
Right. And

Speaker 1 I want to, and we can go back if I'm, because I'm changing gears a little bit because I'm thinking about this loving the process.

Speaker 1 I'm getting the vibe that you were coming up straight singing. Yep.
And then now you switch over to drama and acting and i wanted to hear about how that process was that a switch it wasn't a switch

Speaker 1 it wasn't a switch i i i loved i loved acting so i my first sort of like taste of acting was when i was about 11 and then i started getting into like plays and school shows okay when i was about 15.

Speaker 1 um but i just didn't know was possible

Speaker 1 yeah you hadn't seen it i hadn't seen it exactly so i i and i kept trying again when you don't have a there's no playbook there's no instruction booklet, there's no blueprint, so you don't really know how to even begin to go about it.

Speaker 1 And no one had mentioned drama school at my school to me. So I didn't even know it was an option.

Speaker 1 So I

Speaker 1 had, we had moved to South, to East London by this point. And there was a really, there's a lovely theatre, Stratford Theatre Royal,

Speaker 1 that I used to go to. And then I ended up taking sort of like a part-time job there.
And I worked in every possible spot you could think, think of. It was at the

Speaker 1 ticket sales. I was an usher.
I was at the bar, wherever you could find, I was there.

Speaker 1 And I started,

Speaker 1 as I was watching these plays and actors come in and out, I was really inspired by it. And I thought, I knew I wanted to do, I want to do that too.
I want to do that. How can I?

Speaker 1 I remember I asked if I could audition for one of the plays that was going on, the musical that was going on. I was told no.

Speaker 1 And it really, I was really upset because I was like, well, I know I can, I know I can. I know i can but i think it was important for me to experience that because it just pushed me to figure out how

Speaker 1 they then had this sort of young actors company thing that they were doing that i discovered and i was like i will i want to do that so i applied for that got in and i realized that

Speaker 1 when i on the first day sort of like the enrollment day the first day we come in and you're meeting the teachers and meeting the the the the tutors The one, the main tutor who was taking the course was a woman called Raymond Kenn, who I'd met five years before.

Speaker 1 So I'm 20 now and I met her when I was 15 doing

Speaker 1 a youth group production of Romeo and Juliet, The Young Vic.

Speaker 1 And I had not seen her since then. And this was the first time I was seeing her.
And she said, oh, did you... Have you applied? Are you going to train? And I didn't know what she meant.
What was that?

Speaker 1 I didn't know. I said to her.
Because it was a path that was unknown to you. Completely unknown.
I literally said to her, what do you mean? What does that mean?

Speaker 1 Well, are you going to, you're going to go to drama school?

Speaker 1 What's drama school? That's a thing. That's a thing.

Speaker 1 What do you mean?

Speaker 1 And that's what you,

Speaker 1 you can go to school for acting. You can go and train to be an actor.
I said,

Speaker 1 huh? I didn't, I had no idea. She said, well, I think you should.
I think you should train. I said, okay.

Speaker 1 I think you should go to the Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts. I said, she called it Rada, and I didn't know what that was.
I said, what's Rada? She said, Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts. I said, no,

Speaker 1 I'm not going to get into the Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts.

Speaker 1 That sounds like Royal. Yeah, I'm not going to get into that place.
Sorry. I'm not.
What you are? You're not going to get in. Marie Kay Walter, Ray.
I mean, Ray, I'm not going to get into it.

Speaker 1 I love you. I'm going to love you.
Love you so much. I'm not going to get in.

Speaker 1 So I'm not going to do it. She said, well, if you don't apply, you can't do this course.
Oh, that's a good one.

Speaker 1 Don't, Don't try me with a challenge. Yes.

Speaker 1 Don't tell me I can't do something because then I'm going to.

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Speaker 1 it's about staying in.

Speaker 1 So you get into Rada. Yes.
And it wasn't all smooth sailing.

Speaker 1 The story that you write about in the book is that

Speaker 1 people didn't appreciate your gift

Speaker 1 because it was

Speaker 1 a majority traditional

Speaker 1 white

Speaker 1 institution.

Speaker 1 And there were many microaggressions that you faced in the process. Can you talk a bit about that experience

Speaker 1 and how you persevered? Yeah,

Speaker 1 the very first one I faced was actually kind of immediate, which was so insane.

Speaker 1 I went there and just before I'd gotten into school to start the term, I got a job doing backing vocals for a group.

Speaker 1 And the reason I was excited about it, yes, it was lovely to go and do backing vocals with this group, but it also was a means to pay for the tuition outright. it would have paid for the entire thing.

Speaker 1 And I asked for permission, and she said, No, well, no, I don't think you can. I think you, it's either you go

Speaker 1 and do this job and you have to leave, or you leave the job and you stay.

Speaker 1 That was the

Speaker 1 administrator's problem-solving, helping a student.

Speaker 1 Meanwhile, there's another student in my year who is out for two weeks doing a play. Oh, no,

Speaker 1 oh, the story, the story repeats itself again and again and again. Again and again.

Speaker 1 So, and so I

Speaker 1 oh, the hypocrisy. But then I spent that, but I spent the first year paying for it.
Yeah. I then spent the first year being punished for that, for wanting to go and do just even asking for asking.

Speaker 1 Because then I go, well, okay,

Speaker 1 I need a job. I'm going to do a job part-time.
But that part-time means I'm in school for Monday to Friday and I'm at work Saturday and Sunday.

Speaker 1 So by the time I come in on Monday, I'm exhausted and I'm falling asleep in classes. And instead of someone going, are you okay?

Speaker 1 They go, she's not focused.

Speaker 1 She doesn't care. So we'll give her the smallest role and we'll just, we'll keep punishing for it.
And it just, and it went on for so long. I was thought to be unfocused.

Speaker 1 And then when they thought I was focusing,

Speaker 1 they, we did like a musical.

Speaker 1 And I got the smallest role in the musical. And they knew I could sing.
At this point, it wasn't like a, it wasn't

Speaker 1 a mystery. I could sing.
That's that was my that was what I did. Um, and it gets to one of those performing nights, and then we find out in the daytime that two of the ladies are not very well.

Speaker 1 Um, and so instead of saying, Okay, you stay off, go home, you aren't, or reassign the roles, they were in, and I was asked to sing for them.

Speaker 1 And I, I can't even be mad at the question

Speaker 1 because I think I just and I, I think you can, But

Speaker 1 that's mighty big of you.

Speaker 1 But I think I was more, I think to this day, I'm still frustrated at the, the,

Speaker 1 I wish I had known to, to say no. Yeah.
Right. You know, but the, but the lesson in saying yes and doing it is was that I would never do that again.

Speaker 1 I would never allow my voice to be given to someone else. To be given to someone else.
And used that way.

Speaker 1 I would be in full control of how my voice is used and and how and whom i use it with and when yeah that was a real lesson uh in sort of like self-confidence and and advocating for oneself and knowing when to say actually

Speaker 1 no yeah because when i asked about that it was well we didn't think that you needed help you were really um efficient yes

Speaker 1 and i was like well i would i really hope that anyone who is efficient doesn't

Speaker 1 experience that because if they're good at what they do, they should they should be given the opportunity to be good at what they do.

Speaker 1 Well, this is the for listeners, when you hear black folks talk about needing to be twice as good,

Speaker 1 this is what

Speaker 1 these are the experiences that are not uncommon

Speaker 1 to people of color all over the world. when someone has a preconceived notion

Speaker 1 of who we are

Speaker 1 based on difference. Yes.

Speaker 1 Your need to get through college, the way you had to do it to get through the program was different. Yes.

Speaker 1 Your needs were different. And this is why you have to have diverse faculty and

Speaker 1 administrators so that people can look

Speaker 1 like I recognize what this student is going through.

Speaker 1 And I won't see it as a way, oh, you're, oh, you just want to be a backup singer. It's like, no, you, you're trying to eat.
Yes.

Speaker 1 And if you don't have leadership that is diverse enough to be able to see themselves, then you wind up putting students and young people in a position to have to do twice as much

Speaker 1 to get through. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And I, you know, I want to take this moment because there are young people who will not assume be people who loved you, saw you, see you on Wicked, they see you as Alphaba, they see you as beautiful.

Speaker 1 And it's important to know.

Speaker 1 That's not easy. It was not easy because there are microaggressions and there are

Speaker 1 people who don't have full understanding of a broad set of experiences.

Speaker 1 And it makes it hard. Yes.
For people who are other. Yeah.

Speaker 1 I think the wonderful thing about being able to write this book is that I get to share that this was not a walk in the park. Yes.
That this was not easy. Right.

Speaker 1 That to get to this point today here, it has taken a lot.

Speaker 1 It's been a wonderfully crazy experiential journey of ups and downs. And I couldn't imagine.
I love the way you talk about how hard you work.

Speaker 1 I mean, and I think that that's a wonderful thing that you have laid out in your book because I, you know, we take, we see the end product of all the work. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So you, you, you make it to Broadway. You are.
uh in the color purple uh you have blown it away yeah um But the one thing you said, and I don't know whether it was in the book or I heard it

Speaker 1 in another conversation that you had, but how difficult it is for you to have embodied the role of Seeley. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Someone for

Speaker 1 how long were you on? It was 400 and

Speaker 1 I want to say like 480 something performances. It was 14 months.
14 months.

Speaker 1 And for people to understand, Celie's character was, was battered and bruised and told over and over again, night after night

Speaker 1 that she was ugly, she was unworthy. And you don't realize, yeah, in order to personify that role, you have to

Speaker 1 take it in.

Speaker 1 And that, that, that is a hard thing to do to the point where now even singing I am here. I just don't do it.

Speaker 1 Can you talk a bit about that work, what that feels like because we see the other end of it we see the performance and we see your career but i didn't even think about what it takes to because i think people see actors as like you just put something on it's like a costume you put it on and then you do you say the words and that's it but that that's really um

Speaker 1 one percent of what it is uh to really be able to and this is what i believe to really be able to and i never like it what what other actors are like like just act just you don't have to none of none of you is in that in the role that's not true because you you are literally the body of this person you your body has to take in the character of whoever it is and then give it to to your watcher to your viewer

Speaker 1 and with silie she

Speaker 1 she i really i love her and i speak of her like in in present tense because all of these characters they they are to me they're like people they're like friends who i've met and

Speaker 1 some are a little like distant, some are more present.

Speaker 1 She is this sort of spark of light who is constantly put down,

Speaker 1 beaten physically and mentally, told she's ugly,

Speaker 1 told she's not worth anything, abandoned, abandoned again, abandoned again. And

Speaker 1 I would do this night after night after night. And so after a while, your body doesn't know what

Speaker 1 that you're pretending.

Speaker 1 And so your body just finds it sort of short circuits the way to get to wherever you need to get to. And so after like performance 200, 210 or something,

Speaker 1 I hear the word ugly. And that's, it means that's it's me.

Speaker 1 I hear it because the line between myself and the character is so thin that it's almost non-existent because

Speaker 1 that is the short circuit to the character. You have to be able to embody

Speaker 1 who they are and believe the things that are being said of you and really hear it so that the reaction is connected and real.

Speaker 1 And that goes for every single character. You sort of make a pact with yourself and the character that they are...

Speaker 1 they are allowed to live in you for as long as they need to until the project is done. The problem is after the project is done, how do you make space for yourself again?

Speaker 1 That can sometimes be really, really difficult.

Speaker 1 It takes time to

Speaker 1 sort of

Speaker 1 distill the character from yourself again and find out what your baseline is because you're still operating from the baseline of the character sometimes.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it takes a lot and sometimes it's it's not just like a mental uh task for me it's very physical as well. Depending on how much work needs to happen, it takes training.
It takes,

Speaker 1 I just did

Speaker 1 a film called Kuroshi, and that was samurai. And I was training every day for a month

Speaker 1 because that's all I had in order to get

Speaker 1 samurai into my body.

Speaker 1 And samurai has to be in your body, otherwise it doesn't read. And it is

Speaker 1 some of the hardest work work I've ever done in my life, just because it's a completely different way, physicality that I haven't used before.

Speaker 1 And it's the same with flying as alphabet. You have to get your body has to get used to what it's like to be in a harness in the air when your weight is bearing down on a very thin piece of

Speaker 1 material, which is the harness, which is holding all of your weight. Yeah.
And you talk about the chafing, the, you know, the

Speaker 1 physical

Speaker 1 burning of your skin as you were singing and flipping and flying at the same time. Yeah.
And no one thinks of that. They just think.

Speaker 1 And now I'm all. The amount of times people are like, oh, I want to fly.
It looks so fun. And I'm like,

Speaker 1 it's fun now because I know how to do it. But at the very beginning, there is a moment when you're in the air where it is not fun at all, where everything hurts.

Speaker 1 But if you're in the middle of a scene and you need to get to the end of the scene or the middle of a song, you need to get to the end of the song, the pain has to go somewhere else, and you have to sing the song.

Speaker 1 So, yes, it's fun to be in the air, but after our

Speaker 1 10,

Speaker 1 it's not so fun anymore. Yeah.
Well, I want to go back to the color purple quickly here because I heard that you said that you wanted that part in the worst.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I knew I was supposed to be doing it. How did you know you were supposed to be doing this?

Speaker 1 I don't know.

Speaker 1 I knew it it was coming and

Speaker 1 and just something

Speaker 1 said you're supposed to do this okay i just i i was so sure if you ask me what made me sure i i to this day i cannot tell you i don't know I just knew that it was meant to be the thing I was supposed to be doing.

Speaker 1 I did not know that it was going to Broadway. I did not know what was coming afterwards.

Speaker 1 I just knew there was a small little play, a musical coming to this tiny little theater that held only 200 people and I wanted to do it.

Speaker 1 It didn't matter what it was paying, it didn't matter where it was. I knew that this was the production I was supposed to be a part of, and I was meant to be doing it

Speaker 1 as clear as day. Someone said, Would you play another character? No, I know it's supposed to be Seely.
Yeah,

Speaker 1 and you talk about the feeling

Speaker 1 when

Speaker 1 you

Speaker 1 sing the

Speaker 1 I am here, yeah, and

Speaker 1 feeling the audience's reaction. yeah

Speaker 1 you know it's sort of going back to silent night the shepherd yeah and you um can you talk about that a bit what that felt what it feels like to use your physical self and be able to

Speaker 1 do it in that way yeah it's it's a real um

Speaker 1 out-of-body

Speaker 1 but really organic feeling it's like um

Speaker 1 It's kind of like flying, you know, everything sort of feels like it's connected.

Speaker 1 When you can feel the audience as it's happening, it's like, it's like true, the truest magic you could possibly imagine.

Speaker 1 I'm here was one of those moments where you could feel the audience take a breath,

Speaker 1 like breathe with you. Because up until that point, they're all like, you can feel the tension in the air.
Because you want her to get to a place where she can say it, where she can do that.

Speaker 1 And it takes so much, which is why I don't sing it very often, because

Speaker 1 I don't think that the song is a party trick.

Speaker 1 I think it is the culmination of a journey that this character has had to be on to get to this point. And I feel like you can't.
It's called you have to earn it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 I don't feel that you can truthfully do that song unless you know the journey that the character has been on. It's not I am here.
Exactly. I am here.
Exactly. Me, I'm me, I'm here.
That's right.

Speaker 1 And so when people like use it just because they want to sing it, it always feels a little false to me because I'm sort of like, well, you, because you were silly. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And it's like, you didn't live my life. Right.
Now, did you feel this? I know. don't get that.
No, no, no. Did you feel the same way about

Speaker 1 Alphabet as you did about Celie? That you knew that

Speaker 1 this was for me?

Speaker 1 I think I was so affrighted of admitting it because I knew so many people were going up for it.

Speaker 1 But in my heart of hearts,

Speaker 1 I knew that

Speaker 1 I got this woman. I understood this woman.
I knew that one.

Speaker 1 There wasn't going to be anyone else.

Speaker 1 There was no other character that I wanted to play in this piece. And it would have been, it was this.

Speaker 1 It was alphabet can you every time can you help us understand the feeling you had when they called you up and said cynthia you got the job

Speaker 1 i don't even think i had any words i think i just cried and said thank you so much and that was i was just sobbing into my arms i just

Speaker 1 because i think what i had realized maybe at that point is that is that actually to get to Alphabet was a really long journey. I had been learning her.
I'd been learning, unbeknownst to me.

Speaker 1 I didn't realize it was happening, but I had been learning this character for a really long time. I knew the songs back to front before I had seen the show.

Speaker 1 So I knew the songs, I connected with the songs, I understood those songs. And then I went to see the show and thought, oh my gosh, I really,

Speaker 1 there's something.

Speaker 1 And then, and then I've been asked to do concerts of this, and I do like, it just kept coming up. Yeah.
It kept coming to me.

Speaker 1 And then, and then to be asked to come in an audition was i knew i wasn't going to leave anything unsaid or anything in the tank so i let it all go when i was in that audition room so to get that core was i really do think it well it did it changed my life

Speaker 1 um truly and i'll never forget the feeling of sort of amazement and

Speaker 1 speechlessness that happened that day. So I just, I was so grateful.
And I, I think there was like a measure of disbelief that something like this had happened and could happen.

Speaker 1 It's like a dream, a real dream role

Speaker 1 was in my lap. And it, and, and, and just, a,

Speaker 1 just a dream experience

Speaker 1 because it in it it's ending so well. Yeah.
I mean, you can put all that work into any.

Speaker 1 you know um piece of art and it's not received in a way you know you don't you would have done this no matter what. I think I heard you say that in an interview.

Speaker 1 You would have been, you, you would have put just as much energy into the role, but to have it be so well received by the public, people of all ages.

Speaker 1 What do you think it is about Wicked, about the particular

Speaker 1 adaptation of it, your performance,

Speaker 1 Ariana's performance? That is. I think it's the humanity.
I think it's the humanity in it. I think as much as it's the sort of fantastical, magical world,

Speaker 1 it's deeply rooted in humanity. Each of these characters has a humanness to them.
They all have a want. They all have a hurt, a pain, and especially Alphabur, who,

Speaker 1 and it's so

Speaker 1 openly on show. She's so very vulnerable.
Yes.

Speaker 1 That I think people connect to that, that they connect to this otherness that she feels, this

Speaker 1 starting at birth, yeah, from the beginning. And I think to be able to watch it play out in front of you sort of validates anyone who feels that way.

Speaker 1 That you're not, this is not something you're imagining, it actually is true.

Speaker 1 And look at it, watch it happening to someone else, watch it happening to someone, and that someone happens to have my face. And I think that adds to the idea that, oh,

Speaker 1 well, if she, if she is the one behind the face of this character, then it opens the doors to the experience of the person who's playing it as well.

Speaker 1 And I think the connection to the people and the characters and what everyone else's experience is has, I think, really

Speaker 1 exploded this out and opened for people. The stories I've had, the connections, the people who have told me what they've been through,

Speaker 1 how this has moved them.

Speaker 1 I could be here till the end of the year if I was to tell you all of the stories. And it's really, really amazing.

Speaker 1 So what are you most excited about for the next installment now? The thing I'm most excited about for the next installment is

Speaker 1 the growth.

Speaker 1 They're not in school anymore.

Speaker 1 They're really grown and I've seen it and I'm really proud of the progression. These are grown women.

Speaker 1 And I think I can't wait for people to experience Alpha Burt as someone who's really in her power and

Speaker 1 having to deal with what the decision that she's made. And she does.
It's not easy for her, but I think there's something quite wonderful about the way she moves through the space now.

Speaker 1 She's not apologetic at all. It's kind of wonderful.
Yeah. One thing I was anything changed for the movie?

Speaker 1 A couple of things. Yeah.

Speaker 1 But maybe not changed, maybe expanded, which just opened up a little bit more. Like the

Speaker 1 love story between Fiero and Alphabet, that's sort of been expanded. So you can see it more, you can understand it more.

Speaker 1 It doesn't just sort of happen in one song because you don't have the time on a stage to do all of that.

Speaker 1 You get to learn a bit more about where, because in the show, Alphabet just sort of goes away for a large majority of the second act.

Speaker 1 And in this, you sort of see where she's been and you're with her for a little bit. And then, and then she sort of like goes away.

Speaker 1 And I think there's something really lovely about being able to see what world she's created for herself. So that's a little bit different.
You just, it's just the expansion of what we, what we know.

Speaker 1 I'm very excited. And let me just tell you, I have a family who are musical cynics.
You know, I got some who are like, okay,

Speaker 1 when do you break out in the song? Everybody to a T, bawling, bawling, crying, you know, connected in this way. So, I mean, and I have an answer for you on that because I've heard that answer.

Speaker 1 I've heard that question before. When do people break out in song? All the time.
I know.

Speaker 1 People break out in song all the time. People start singing or humming.
Yes. All the time.

Speaker 1 If you really pay attention, you'll realize that people do it. Every time.
And we all have a soundtrack to our lives. Exactly.
I know I do.

Speaker 1 I do everything to music. You know, you put the headphones up and it's like, it gets me ready.
I see myself. It's like,

Speaker 1 I'm here.

Speaker 1 That's what it is. And I think people get so for some reason, there's this interesting disconnect when you go to a theater, like

Speaker 1 why are you singing out in public? Well, because we always do. We actually always do.
And we have a connection to music and music is, and, and, and more so,

Speaker 1 a musical is, is the, is where you can go to really heighten

Speaker 1 one's sense of emotion. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Music happens when there's nothing else, when you can't say anything else, we can't say anything else.

Speaker 1 And often the song that gets sung is the thing that the person doesn't want anyone to see. So it's the innermost thoughts of whoever is performing.
Oh, I love the way you explain that. It's that.

Speaker 1 So take that, musical cynics.

Speaker 1 There's a place for it, and it's very important.

Speaker 1 Go and see more of it.

Speaker 1 I think my sister is

Speaker 1 shooting a shot across my bow. No, no, there have been others.
There have been others.

Speaker 1 Before you leave this table and we move on to other things, I just want to tell you how proud I am of how you are showing up in the world as your true authentic self. Thank you very much.

Speaker 1 Which is, I know, a part of that peaking

Speaker 1 that you had to. And I would love to have you just talk a bit before we go about

Speaker 1 how you've

Speaker 1 managed

Speaker 1 seeing all of yourself. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Because I know that there are young people out here who are looking and listening. And,

Speaker 1 you know, I just want you to

Speaker 1 talk a bit about that journey.

Speaker 1 The beginning of the journey of trying to be yourself, it takes...

Speaker 1 It's like trial and error.

Speaker 1 You really have to be okay with making mistakes and discovering and not quite being comfortable with something and acknowledging when it's not quite comfortable and changing and shifting and being able to distill the noise that other people tell you about who and what and how you're supposed to be to find out what you need for yourself.

Speaker 1 And as I've been doing that slowly, I've sort of been finding little pieces. It's like, you know, treasure hunting, finding the things that make sense to me.
Oh, that's what I want to do.

Speaker 1 Even like someone like nails is something I've been doing since I was 16 years old. And I, and I wanted to check myself: like, am I just saying that?

Speaker 1 No, and I went back to a picture of me when I'm 16, and I have nails, and they are not as long, but they're definitely a neck.

Speaker 1 I've been doing my nails. They're done.
Yeah, they're done.

Speaker 1 And I realized that that's just something that makes me feel like I'm done. If I don't have a lick of makeup on, but I have my nails done, I feel like I'm done.
So that's just something that's like a,

Speaker 1 I don't know, it's not, it's a part of who I am. It's something that tells a story.
It's another canvas for someone else to create, but it's also a way to express stories.

Speaker 1 And it's the same with my,

Speaker 1 I shaved my head, but I've been making my getting my hair shorter and shorter and shorter at this point since I was 23.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 I knew it was because I just wanted people to see my face.

Speaker 1 I had this obsession with being able to just show up, like nothing,

Speaker 1 nothing hiding anything, just everything on

Speaker 1 And it got progressively shorter and shorter and shorter. And when I got to Wicked, my scalp needed to be green.

Speaker 1 Someone said, well, I thought that was just sort of CGI'd. No, my actual scalp underneath the wig is green.
And the only way I could do that is if I shaved my head.

Speaker 1 So I shaved my head and that green is on my scalp. But when I took the wig off and the makeup off, I really liked what I saw.
Yeah, there you go. So I just stuck with it.

Speaker 1 And at first, I would have someone else help me shave it. And then I I was just like, just teach me how to do it.
I'll do it myself. So I shaved my head myself.
Welcome to the club. Thank you.

Speaker 1 And so all it is is this sort of culmination of all the things that have been, that have been who I am for a really long time. And people have started to sort of accept they're not changing.

Speaker 1 They just are what they are and they're a part of her. And I've, I've just wholly accepted all of those things and who I am.

Speaker 1 because I think they they make me who I am comfortable as that person, you know?

Speaker 1 So I was to my makeup artist Joanna today, I think sometimes people look at me and think I've put, like, I might be, there was a moment where I think people thought I was putting it on as costume.

Speaker 1 But now I think people are realizing, oh, it's not costume, it's just how she is every single day. When you meet me in the street and I've got no makeup on, I'm still the same.

Speaker 1 I still have loads of piercings, I still have my nails done. It's not, you're not meeting another person completely.
It's just that's how I exist.

Speaker 1 And I've gotten to a place where I like to just exist as me.

Speaker 1 So when you meet me on a red carpet, when you meet me in in the street, they're not two different people. It's one person.
So, that probably just happens to be wearing different clothes.

Speaker 1 It's easier to keep up with. Oh my gosh.
You know, it's like

Speaker 1 easier to be able to show up as yourself every single place. You don't have to remember the person you told them you were.

Speaker 1 It's so lovely. It is the key to authenticity when people say you're so authentic.
And it's like, no, I'm absolutely, this is exactly who I am.

Speaker 1 And we are ready for our question from our listener. Okay.

Speaker 2 Hi, Michelle and Craig. My question is about how to find balance.
I have a busy job. I'm very close with my family.
I work to keep a close group of friends and I try to date when I can.

Speaker 2 But something I've been struggling with for a while is that I really want to have more of a creative life.

Speaker 2 I've always loved to paint and write, and I want to make those elements into something bigger in my life.

Speaker 2 But I find myself feeling like there are truly not enough hours in the day to stay on on top of all of my obligations and also build a space for me to focus on my art.

Speaker 2 I'm now in my mid-30s and starting to panic that if I don't figure out a sustainable way to have a creative life, I'm going to lose this part of myself.

Speaker 2 How do you create that space for yourself to do what you really want to do day to day, especially when you're very busy or torn between a lot of different responsibilities? Courtney in Portland.

Speaker 1 Hello, Courtney.

Speaker 1 I have a couple thoughts about this i feel that there sounds like an all there's an organizational problem going on so like scheduling

Speaker 1 and it sounds like you're spreading yourself thin for everybody else and not really making any time for yourself so i would maybe sometimes say hey i can't come to this thing that you want me to come to because i'm gonna be working on something for myself and i think it sounds like not wanting to let other people down or not wanting to say no to other people, which is really tough.

Speaker 1 But it's really great in the end. It will actually, I think it will help Courtney, you Courtney, if sometimes those family obligations and those friend obligations don't have you at them.

Speaker 1 Maybe sometimes

Speaker 1 you don't go to those things and that you take those times when you're not at those things to care for yourself and to pour into the thing that you love. Because if you

Speaker 1 if you're five years away from now,

Speaker 1 if you head away from this moment five years away from and you look back and you go, I didn't make any time for myself, or what do I have to show for it?

Speaker 1 But everyone else seems to be really, really happy around me.

Speaker 1 You live,

Speaker 1 you'll, you'll regret it.

Speaker 1 Whereas if you spend the time now on the things you love for yourself, you will actually be better for the people around you.

Speaker 1 You will actually be a better person, a more joyous person, a more satisfied

Speaker 1 person

Speaker 1 for the folks that you love. And they probably will enjoy that version of you more too.

Speaker 1 And it's a particularly

Speaker 1 good,

Speaker 1 important question in this day and age when

Speaker 1 time alone is

Speaker 1 almost like the enemy. Yeah.

Speaker 1 You know, with social media and phones and, you know, video games. And, you know, the one thing I had growing up as a child that really

Speaker 1 encouraged my creativity was a lot of time alone.

Speaker 1 You know,

Speaker 1 when we grew up,

Speaker 1 you had seven TV channels and

Speaker 1 kids' TV ended at noon. Yes.
You know, and it didn't start until three.

Speaker 1 You know, there was just not, there weren't a lot of. artificial distractions.

Speaker 1 The beauty of that is that it gives you time. Yes.

Speaker 1 to be bored,

Speaker 1 to let your mind quiet,

Speaker 1 to have something to fill up.

Speaker 1 And that's where creativity happens. I mean, when I'm six and I pick up a spiral notebook to start writing my first story,

Speaker 1 a lot of that was because I didn't have anything to do. I didn't have anything to do.
And no one, my mother was not trying to fill my time. No.
She was like, go play, go through your thing.

Speaker 1 You know, nothing is scheduled. You know, it's the summer.
You got all day. Yeah.
And

Speaker 1 you've played enough. Your brother's sick of you.
Your big brother doesn't want to play with you anymore. And you think there are things in my head.
Yeah. I'm thinking I'm daydreaming.

Speaker 1 I'm letting things happen for me. That's where creativity happens.

Speaker 1 And if we don't allow for that,

Speaker 1 because we are constantly filling up every second of our time, taking in a TikTok video or listening to someone else, forget even care. Like if we got off of our phones um and and and

Speaker 1 got comfortable with silence and aloneness

Speaker 1 that is the space where creativity comes um

Speaker 1 so i would say to courtney i'd also ask her to think about the times when she's filling the time when she doesn't need to that's right and is she allowing herself spaces of quiet and aloneness yeah so courtney i hope you you're picking this up it sounds like like you have to do something that's a little counterintuitive.

Speaker 1 Yes. Be a little bit more selfish in order to be better for everyone else.

Speaker 1 And to Misha's point,

Speaker 1 be comfortable being by yourself. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Give yourself time for the creativity to happen. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Well, this is

Speaker 1 been a delight. Thank you, thank you.
Gosh, congratulations on everything. Thank you.
So many things. Thank you.
Simply more.

Speaker 1 Yeah. I'm so proud of you.
Wicked for the good.

Speaker 1 I mean, your album. You should be.
Thank you.

Speaker 1 You should absolutely. It's a beautiful book.
Thank you. There is more in it.
All of this is in it, but lots of wonderful lessons.

Speaker 1 We get to know you in a very powerful way.

Speaker 1 Thank you. And it's going to help some

Speaker 1 folks. So

Speaker 1 this is the time, the holidays, when you go see Wicked for Good, pick up Simply More

Speaker 1 and give it to somebody that you love as a gift.

Speaker 1 And come back and see us. I will.
I will.

Speaker 1 I'm busy, but we'll be watching.

Speaker 1 This will be my

Speaker 1 stops. I'll always be here.

Speaker 1 I'm coming. I'll be back, I promise.
And I don't break my businesses.

Speaker 1 Thank you for this. Love you much.
Love you too.

Speaker 1 Thanks again to our friends at Progressive Insurance for sponsoring this episode. For more information, visit progressive.com/slash open the house.