“Our Hair is a Portal into our Souls” with Tracee Ellis Ross

The Light Podcast is presented by Starbucks and Intuit. Oh, we're going to have a ball.
Hi! Hello, everybody. Oh, hello, hello, hello.
Well, so I'm Trace Ellis Ross. I first met Mrs.
Obama through a handwritten note that she wrote me, thanking me for joining them on the campaign trail. And that was in 2007.
And then the first time that I met her in person was in 2011 at the White House for one of her mentoring events. And now we are friends.
Like real friends. I'm not bragging, but I am.
And it's totally true. Michelle, that's my friend.
So I think we should bring her out. But, but, but I think what we should do first, let me put this over here.
I think, first of all, you guys all turn your lights on, the inner lights, turn your inner lights on, inner soul light, and then also turn your flashlights on on your phone. Is mine on already?

No. Hold on.
Okay, let's make... Yes! Magic! Look at this.
Okay, I'm not going to turn mine on it

because it'll be in somebody's face. All right.
I think we're ready. So, are we ready?

Introducing our forever first Lady, Michelle Obama.

Guys, she's here.

Whoa! Hey!

Oh, my goodness.

That is magic. I am not going to lie.

Hey, everyone. I'm Michelle Obama.

And welcome to a special bonus episode of The Light Podcast. It can be tough getting comfortable with who you are and what makes you happy.
And that's true even if you're not first lady. We all try to live up to other people's expectations instead of our own.
we hesitate to make a statement with our hair or our clothes because we're not sure the world will get it. We see society's definition of success and worry that ours looks different.
We wonder if we're enough. Over the years, I've spent a lot of time talking about all of this with my good friend, Tracy Ellis Ross.
As you will hear in this episode, Tracy is a barely contained ball of energy, but she's also incredibly thoughtful, self-aware, smart, and just plain funny. Whenever we're together, we talk about everything.
But most importantly,

we just love laughing together. Tracy's always had my back and I've had hers.
She's helped me

out in so many ways, from mentoring young folks to encouraging more people to register to vote.

Tracy and I have similar views of the world and our place in it.

And I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did. All right, I've got to tell the story about my friend who I gave my book to this summer.
There was copies because I wanted my friend to read, so you came to visit me and I was like, did you read the book? And she's like, yeah. I'm like, I texted you.
I was like, did you finish it? I'm like, yes. I'm like, yeah, yeah.
No feedback. No.
I'm like, oh no. I knew we were doing this.
Tracy hates it. No, it's terrible.
I got no feedback. So backstage, I'm like, can we finally talk? She's just like, yeah, I like it.
I like it. See, this is what I'm saying.
You guys think that I'm all confident and all this. And I'm like, Tracy hates the book.
She didn't give me any feedback. You know what's crazy is I totally, I really identify with that.
And you know what? I'm sorry I didn't catch that. I also, I'm a really slow reader.
I am. And I don't know about you guys, but I love listening.
This is what I did on the last book as well. Oh yeah.
Yeah. See, but you gave me no feedback.
All right. Let me just wait.
Hold on. We got wow pages.
These are my favorite. The ones that say wow, wow, wow.
Stars, stars, stars. Wow, wow, wow.
That's all I wanted to know. Yeah.
Stars, stars wow and you gave me 53 i gave her nothing i'm a bad friend guys the value of taking up wow wow wow hold on there's another marker yeah oh look at this yes true yes look at this yes true yes okay so you guys are in for a treat because this is literally the first time we've talked together about this book. So right here, right now.

So I'm as excited about this conversation as you are so also hold on also we we have to temper the friendship and remember we're in public okay okay all right all right so my first question is how are you today what did you have for breakfast and can we talk about the braids? Oh, yeah. I am good.
I'm great. What did I have for breakfast? I didn't eat breakfast.
I ate lunch. I had salad and a short rib quesadilla.
That sounds delicious. It was so good.
That sounds delicious. And the braids.
Yes. Freedom! That's why I want to talk about the braids.
So you know that I can have hair conversations forever. Thank you.
So I feel like the hair conversation is actually a really important one. I obviously have a hair company.
And the reason that I dove into that, and it's such an important area, is as black women, I feel like our hair is a portal into our souls um and there's so much that you could tell about her humanity yeah through how we have to navigate the experience with our hair both personally and internally and then how that matches up with the world outside and so i've heard you say that you would have never worn your hair in braids while you were in the White House. Yeah, no, I am, you know, I considered it, but, you know, for those of you who remember, everything we did as the first was uber scrutinized.
And it was expected because that's what happens when you're the first. And there are many of us who have been the first at tables and the first at schools and the first on campuses.
Not just around race, but there is a whole lot of differentness. And when you're the first, there's this feeling of everybody else that they have to understand everything you do.
Like, they wouldn't understand my braids. Which is a trip that anybody would have to understand anybody's hair.
None of your business, really. But that was that sort of the burden of the first.
But I kind of just blocked it out and just did my thing. But because of that, I knew that hair would create a statement that would get in the way of the work.
And I sadly still had to prove myself to the nation that, you know, I was competent and smart and I didn't want hair to be the part of that conversation. But here's the thing about progress.
And I want to give a big up to this generation of young women and young people who have literally changed the conversation. So many of you, so proud of you for embracing everything about your hair, not just black hair, but color and cut.
We have changed the conversation. And because of that, you all have paved the way for me to braid my doggone hair, to do whatever I want about it with it.
And as women, and let me just give men a tip, because my husband, my husband now understands this. No man should have a comment, suggestion, input, opinion.
And by the way, if we ask, we really only want like 10% of your idea. Exactly.
You have no idea what we go through. And sadly, societally, sometimes you're not interested.
You don't study our bodies. There's no research on us.
So do not talk about our hair. Do not try to control our wombs.
Stay out of it. Please.
Some of you will know exactly what I mean when I say this. A black woman's hair is not something everyone understands, nor should they.
That includes a professional hairstylist. That's why Yanae is so important to me.
She's an extraordinary hairstylist, an entrepreneur, and just a lovely human being. I just love her, and I'm proud to call her a friend.
Here she is. I started working with Michelle in 2009 by way of Johnny Wright, who was her primary hair stylist.
And I was responsible to assist him take care of Sasha, Malia and Mrs. Robinson.
And over the years, I filled in for him. And then eventually I took over as her primary hairstylist.
The first moment was when we started wearing her hair in a more natural state, and that transition. And I think, again, it happened when she decided to wear braids.
When you are so used to having the same silhouette, and it's changing, change is sometimes uncomfortable. And so it was like, how can we still make this look acceptable?

And not acceptable like within a negative connotation,

but like there will not be backlash.

A lot of what I saw when she was the first lady was every part of her being picked apart.

It was like what she wore, what she did, like what she said.

Everything got picked apart.

So for me, as a Black woman in America, I just know how sensitive hair is. And so it was how do we showcase her hair in a natural state that is still quote unquote polished or that is palatable or that will be accepted.
And I remember just watching so many people on the internet just going crazy about her showing up in that light. Like it was a moment.
And it was a moment because so many people of color, black girls don't see themselves. And when you think about hair tolerance in the workplace, it didn't exist.
And so it was just like, stand under the radar,

keep your hair straight, keep the same silhouette, things of that nature. And so when we deviated from that, it was extremely important for us to do it in a way that made sense.
We'll be right back with more of my discussion with Tracy. Research says that if you have strong social ties, you are likely to live longer and with less stress.
Yeah. So we, you know, I want to make that point because if I can make friends as first lady of the United States living in a bubble, you know, everybody can, right? But there is a risk with big, that's the fear part, right? Because you have to extend yourself to somebody that you don't know.
And maybe there's rejection. Maybe they don't want to be your friend.
I'm going to tell the friend story for us. So I met, first I met campaigning.
Yep. Then you brought me into the White House.
And then I came to the White House numerous times doing different mentoring events and sort of being of service. And then as the time, and then I was invited to a birthday party, I think.
And then I came to another birthday. Anyway.
But that's where, those are social events, right? Exactly. Those are social.
So then I took a leap because the presidency was coming to an end, the second term. And I was like, I'm just going to ask if we can go to dinner.
Yeah. And I just asked.
So, yeah, but I mean, and I was like, I mean, I'm already vetted, right? Like, I've been, I've been to the White House. Like, I know, like, I'm going to make it through that part.
And she didn't act crazy. Yeah.
I was like, you know, and, and, you know, your staff around you would know like, she's a crazy one. She's not a crazy one.
We would get the reports on who was acting up in the China room, waiting to get out. Who was rude to the staff? Who was nice to you? Who got drug out drunk a couple of times.
Oh yeah, no, we were like, really? Ooh. Tracy was on the nice list.
I also would always come alone. That's right.
I would come alone, so I would reach out to them and be like. You weren't calling and going, well, can me, my mother, my grandmother, and my 12 friends from high school.
That's right. And so we took a risk.
I took a risk. And then I joined first a group with dinner.
And then it took time. And you know, same thing with me.
Like, I don't know. You don't know.
I know her from over here. I know from over there.
And the benefit of leaning into the discomfort of not knowing somebody, you know. And I think the other thing is I've learned how to be a friend from being a friend.
Yes. And from practicing.
And one of the things I noticed that you talk about in the book that I love is that not one friend is supposed to answer all of your needs. Not one relationship, not one friend.
And learning how to do that and to know that you've got one friend you work out with all the time but doesn't do the other stuff. That's right.
I am Michelle Obama's wardrobe stylist.

This is Meredith Koop.

She's been a close friend and a critical part of my life since becoming First Lady.

From formal state dinners to policy roundtables to hula hooping on the South Lawn,

Meredith always helps me dress in a way that's both appropriate to the setting and helps me feel good. Here she's talking about her process.
So when she was in the White House, she had a role. She had a role as first lady.
And I always thought of that before anything else. This is a role and this role requires a certain costume.
I didn't think of the role as just any generic first lady, but first lady Michelle Obama from Chicago. What is she wearing in her role as first lady? There is a certain sort of level of respect that people want or pull for in that role.
So even in the beginning, you saw a situation where she went to a state of the union in a dress without sleeves. And you would have thought that she showed up fully unclothed.

The way people reacted to that. So it was quite interesting to see how people reacted to her.
There was certainly a lot of energy and intensity around her as a person and also what she wore. At the same time, there were a lot of people that were clearly very inspired and uplifted by what she wore and the designers that she wore and how wearing different American designers reflected this tapestry of people in this country and how they expressed their creativity and art and her showcasing that on a day-to-day basis.

Leaving the White House, my goal with my vision for her

has been how can we more and more reflect her authentic self,

what she's authentically drawn to,

and how can I take that and elevate that?

We'll see right back with more of my discussion with Tracy. As you know, I'm on a bit of a mission to make sure that the world knows that women's worth and happiness is not based on being chosen by a man or having children.
And it's something, you know, we talk a lot about. So, yeah, let's talk about that.
Because you're a woman who has a partner and has children. But I've talked to your girls about this idea.
And let's just dive in on that one. What are your thoughts on the worth of women and where we find it? What I am trying to teach my girls is that I want them to work more on being whole, complete individuals rather than being married and mothers.

I just want to work to broaden the dynamic. And I happen to have two daughters, so I'm working on that marriage thing.
But I think this is true for our sons. Yeah, absolutely.
We so limit the possibilities of what a happy human life can look like. You know, it's too narrow.
And that's why so many people are struggling because they're trying to fit into this little bitty box that most of us will never fit into. And it might not even match what we want.
Or maybe it's not there for you. I mean, love, that's not always in your control.
If you don't want to just marry anybody, if you don't want to fall in love with anybody, you know, finding that person and then making it work, what if it doesn't happen? What if it doesn't happen?

I do not want my kids to say to daughters to think, well, I can't be happy because I didn't find that person.

That's when people just start picking somebody.

They just pick a thing.

And by the way, there's a lot of really wonderful other ways.

If mothering is something you want to do, there's other ways to mother. You can either actually have a child.
You can adopt a child. There's all these different ways.
Or you can just mother. That's right.
That's right. There's so many different ways.
And I love that you're talking about it. I'm talking about it.
People are talking about it more. I wish that our society didn't teach young girls to dream about their wedding.
Dream about your life. What do you want your life to be? That part.
And I have spent the last 10 years of my life publicly talking about the fact that I'm the chooser. I get to choose my own life.
That's right. And we get very confused around this narrative.
And then we wrap it up in all these other different little bows and make people think. But the bottom line is, who do you want to be? What do you want from your life? What do you want to give? What do you want to share? What do you want to get? What do you want it to feel like? And then that person might or might not enter.
Whether it's a man or a woman or whatever it is, it doesn't matter. That person might, it might be a dog for God's sakes.
And dogs are good companions. Ladybug was one of the loves of my life.
Okay. Ladybug was very special, but, um, but we get very confused about that.
And I do think it's important, particularly it's one thing coming from me, but it's another coming from a person who's happily married and who talks about the reality of what partnership is, not the fantasy, the reality and of being a mother, and then what that looks like. And if you, as the former first lady, our forever first lady, is inhabiting that conversation, which with such truth, sharing the way you talk about it to your girls, but also it's for young boys too.
It's for all of us to go, okay, what kind of life are we trying to build? I think about the challenges that our boys face. Because when you think of what do we think counts, right, for the kind of life a male can have, right? First of all, you better be a leader.
You know, that's always rewarding. You better win.
You better be a winning leader making money. Who's strong.
Who's strong. Who's tall.
You know. They do all that.
But they say all this stuff is garbage. You slowly narrow it down to, you know, I have met so many happy people who work with their hands, who build things, who don't.
They're men who are not natural leaders, you know, and it's OK. And they are happy people.
And if they're men who are not natural leaders you know and it's okay and they are happy people and if they're not it's because somebody told them you don't deserve to be happy and what happens when we have that narrow definition of what it is to be a man and a leader we get some of what we just got we get took yeah we yeah you know know, and we shortchange our kids and their happiness and who they can be because if they're, if they're not fundamentally, if we don't see who they are, we don't give them space to show us who they are. And let me tell you, if you parent it, kids show you so early who they are.
If you're paying attention to them. And if you're not trying to

supplant your shortcomings and your wishes, and you're not having kids to have a mini me, you know, if you're raising somebody to be a full individual, then you give them the space to show you who they are. And we can't be disappointed with their choice because they'll feel that lack of gladness that, oh, oh, you're a table maker, you know? And it's like, I know some happy table makers that do amazing work who are happier than the most wealthy businessmen out here who are playing some role of leading and they are dead inside because it's not who they really want to be, but they can play that game.
You know, we do that to our girls. We do that to our boys.
We have to parent. I think we have to parent more broadly and give our kids more options of what it means to be human so that they find a place for themselves.
That's why so many people feel unseen. And we can't base that on just race.
If you are not living your truth because you're fitting into some definition, you are unhappy and you feel unseen and then you riot in the Capitol. Because there's something wrong and you don't know what it is.
And you think someone's taking something from you that's not yours. Something from you, but it's the structure, the limited structure of what it means to have a life.
And too many young people are chasing somebody who is making money. Right.
I get it. I know it.
You know, I don't want to act like I'm talking, but I don't want kids. I don't want my kids to just chase money.
I want them to figure out what their purpose is because that's really, forget all the nice clothes and the rings and the this and the that. I know some unhappy billionaires and I know Marianne Robinson who lives in a little apartment who has been one of the happiest people I have ever known in my life and she doesn't need a thing.
That is not where happiness comes from, you know, and our kids are chasing a thing and then we wonder why they're anxious and they're upset because they're trying to be this billionaire business person, this one little narrow thing to make all this money, to make people happy, to be able to respond to a title that society says, oh good, you want to be a lawyer. That's what happened to me.
I picked law because people were like, oh wow, a lawyer. I was like, I don't even know what a lawyer is, but I guess I'm going to do that thing.
If I were a lawyer right now, I would be one of the most unhappy people on the planet, and I wouldn't even be serving my rightful purpose. So what I'm trying to do with my kids is just broaden the possibility to get out of their heads, to make sure that I'm not supplanting my shortcomings and my silly loops.
I'm not replacing their wants for mine. And that, as a parent, is a hard thing to do.
Trust me. And I'm not doing it right all the time, you know.
But it should be the thing we're thinking about. We should be thinking about the messages we're sending to our kids that lock them in unhappiness, that lock them into marriages that they...
Look, if you want to be married and if you want to be a parent, it is nothing but hard, thankless work. Just let me just...
So you can't claim that you didn't hear it it is the hardest thing that you will ever do and there will be long periods of time of deep frustration and unhappiness i'm sorry that's what it is and you know you should want to do it. You should want it badly.
You should want it more than you want to wear a wedding dress. Girl, just buy the dress and wear it around your house.
You know? That's hilarious. That's amazing.
You know what's so interesting, though, is that, and we're done, but, is everything you just said I could replace. could replace as a 50 year old single woman who has the life that I want.
It is hard and it is great. It is lonely and it is great.
It is filled with grief and it is great. Like it's just life, no matter which one you choose.
So you want the one you want. So how do I overcome in uncertain times? All times are uncertain.
Let's get comfortable with the uncertainty and then do the work to develop the tools that we will need to get through the uncertainty. And guess where that work starts? Right here.
Right here. We can't find it from the outside.
Our light is here.

It starts here. You build it, you protect it, and you share it as much as possible with other people, which means you have to show empathy.
You have to realize that people are hurt. They feel, all of us feel invisible.
that if somebody is acting out,

whether it's a black child on the south side

or a white man on Wall Street, there is some hurt that is happening. And we should be thinking as a society about how do we structure things so that more people are seen, more people feel supported, more people feel invested in.
it would be the best investment we could ever make to just build a bigger story of who matters on this earth. Our time together has come to an end.
This was a good one, y'all. This is amazing.
I would like to say thank you, Mrs. Obama.
Happiness starts with us. It starts when we tune out the voices telling us we don't deserve to feel a certain way and begin listening to the little voices inside us that knows who we are, where we're going, and what we want out of life.
That's what it means to find your own light. But we also need to help other people find theirs.
Whether it's a child, a friend, a colleague, we need to give more people the space to show us who they are and make them feel seen when they do. Because there's so many ways to exist in this world, so many ways to be happy, and all of them are worthy.
Thanks to Tracy for talking about all of this so eloquently,

for being such a force of nature,

and for finally giving me some feedback on my book.

This was a fun one.

And thanks to all of you for listening.

I'll talk to you soon. de Mohan for Higher Ground and Jane Marie for Little Everywhere.
Audible executive producers Zola Masariki and Nick D'Angelo. Audible co-producers Keith Wooten and Glenn Pogue.
Produced by Mike Richter. With additional production by Joy Sanford, Dan Gallucci, and Nancy Golombiski.
Production support from Andrew Eapin, Jenna Levin, and Julia Murray. Location recording by Jodi Elf.
Special thanks to Melissa Winter, Jill VanLokeren, Crystal Carson, Alex May Seeley, Haley Ewing, Marone Hailey Meskel, Sierra Tyler, Carl Ray, and Jerry Radway, Meredith Koop, Sarah Corbett, Tyler Lechtenberg, and Usra Najum. The theme song is Unstoppable by Sia.
The closing song is Lovely Day by Bill Withers. Chief Content Officer Rachel Giazza.
Head of Audible Studios Zola Masariki. Copyright 2023 by Higher Ground Audio LLC.
Sound Recording Copyright 2023 by Higher Ground Audio LLC. Voice over by Novena Carmel.