“Excellence Is My Practice” with Gayle King

The Light Podcast is presented by Starbucks and Intuit. How, how, how to introduce Michelle LaVon Robinson-Obama? How do we do that? Are you as excited as I am to be here? Honest to God.
I just saw her backstage. She looks good.
So everybody in this room knows how spectacular she is. We all know she graduated from Princeton undergrad, Harvard Law, raised not one but two fabulous young women.
The hugger in chief, as it says so, right there on her Instagram, has carried so much honesty, decency, and light that I actually would not be surprised to hear, guys that she glows in the dark. I like that.
It's my pleasure to welcome to the stage Michelle Obama. Hello, everyone.
This is The Light Podcast, and I'm Michelle Obama. For a long time, one of my biggest fears has been whether or not I'm messing up my kids.
It's a thought that runs through every parent's mind. Am I being too lenient or am I coming down on them too hard? Is comforting them during a temper tantrum really going to calm them down? Or is it going to make them dependent on me for the rest of their lives? I'll admit, it's not all entirely rational, but either way, it is very, very real.
And even if you don't have kids yet, but you're thinking about it, you're probably wondering if you'll be a good parent. This stuff is important to think through because figuring out how to be a positive influence on a child is tough.
It's a constantly moving target. But at the same time, it is a singularly powerful experience.
Maybe the most fundamental way that one human can share their light with another. That's what I get into in this episode.
and I'm thrilled to do it with my good friend Gail King, one of the most incredible moms I know. Now, Gail and I go way back.
We met right around the time Barack was elected, and these days she and I are always texting about one thing or another. I actually knitted a little gift for her adorable new grandson.
One of my favorite things about Gail is how supportive she is. She's always hyping me up.
I'm sure some of you have someone like her in your life too. And doesn't it just mean the world when you have someone in your life who is always cheering you on? It just makes you stand a little taller and look at everything around you with more confidence and joy.
Honestly, I'm sure that's a big part of what makes her not just a great friend, but such a good mother and grandmother too. So take a listen.
Everybody's in the house and looking good thank you for coming out hi gail king hello michelle obama what's up it never gets old it never gets old you know i took the train up here guys from new york and we had a woman conductor and she said where are you going gail why are you going to philadelphia because she thought i was going to dc i said no I'm going to Philadelphia because I get to interview Michelle Obama on stage. And she said, where are you going, Gail? Why are you going to Philadelphia? Because she thought I was going to D.C.
I said, no, I'm going to Philadelphia because I get to interview Michelle Obama on stage.

And she said, I'm from Philly.

And so she said, I love me some Michelle Obama.

Don't we all say that?

And then her name is Trina.

She said, I love her style.

I love her grace.

Isn't that nice?

I know.

She said, I just like knowing. That's so sweet.
It's sort of like, I just like knowing she I love her grace. Isn't that nice? I know.
I just like knowing.

That's so sweet.

It's sort of like, I just like knowing she's in the building.

So I want to talk about the book, but before we talk about the book, can I just talk about your look?

I love that you're wearing, I know, yes.

I love that you're wearing braids, Michelle.

I love that you're wearing braids.

Braids with a vicious pony.

Yes. Yes, indeed.
No, we never saw you in braids. We never saw you in braids in the White House.
Did you ever think about braids in the White House? You know what? Yeah, I did. Because, you know, first of all, it's an important protective style.
And as we know, when we are public figures, we're getting our hair fried and dyed and all of that and just my goal for the eight years just let me have some hair in my head yes when it's over yeah so yeah I thought about getting braids but you know it's like I knew it would be a thing right I mean when I got bangs cut it was front page news just some So, you know, and I used to tease my team.

I was like, you know, I'm thinking about braids.

And folks would be like, oh, oh, oh.

Wouldn't it be like crickets in the room?

You know, but it would be misinterpreted.

They would be terrorist braids. They would be called on the head like, revolutionary braids.

What is Michelle Obama trying to say about her

anti-American stance? So I thought, you know, they got enough to deal with us just because we're

black. So I figured, let me keep my hair straight, you know.
I love the braids because I was thinking,

I wonder what would happen, guys, if I showed up at CBS with braids. I think they'd be saying,

um, and the reason why I say that... I think you should try it, Gail.
I'm going to say, I'm going to walk in there and say, Michelle Obama said so. And I will come, I will come in, I'll be like, what? Don't say nothing about her braids.
And I want to applaud young women who are really owning all of who we are with our hair. I think this generation is really what's opening up.
You guys are doing your locks and your sister twist and your hootie doots and all of that. And I am just here for it because we got to bring all of our full selves into our spaces.
So thank i know because i remember michelle once i wore my hair just curly we were covering the super bowl and a muckety-mucket cbs said to me oh that's interesting your hair are you gonna wear it like that tomorrow what do you think the translation of that that's interesting are you gonna wear it like that tomorrow it's like they've got to be able to understand our hair it's like so when i saw you as braids i was so excited i i love this page 73 she says to this day i remain a little shocked that barack and i managed to land our flying motorcycle um we made it through eight years in the white house but somehow Now we did. The bad news is that it hasn't eliminated fear and doubt in my life the good news is that I'm not intimidated by my own thoughts anymore isn't that good that's page 73 and that is a that is a practice you know and kids but how do you have doubt I don't understand how you Michelle we all have doubt doubt we all have doubt we We don't admit it.
And I don't want to be too sexist, but men are the least likely to admit it. And y'all know you're scared.
You know you're scared all the time, but you're not supposed to pretend to be scared. We all have doubt because we live in a society that places it, especially if you're a woman, if you're a woman of color, we have been getting signals our whole lives that we are not good enough, that we're not worthy.
And to pretend like that doesn't hurt, you know, because I don't want to pretend like it doesn't hurt because I want people to stop doing that. I don't want people to speak so blightly and to say certain things and think that it doesn't hurt.
And if I sit up here saying, saying no it doesn't bother me at all yeah then you know that gives people permission to keep doing it it is it so yes I I have grown up with doubt I've grown up with fear I've grown up with this am I getting it right wanting to be perfect and And you still feel the doubt. Absolutely.

Do you feel you still have something to prove?

I don't think I have anything to prove.

I think excellence is now my habit.

You know?

Oh, I love that.

Excellence is now my habit. But for young people, that's the thing.

Excellence is a thing you practice.

I love that. You practice who you want to be every single day.
I try to tell my girls this. If you want to be a professional and be on time, you got to start doing that when you're seven and nine.
You don't wait until you get in a position to try to show up. So I have been practicing getting things right for a long time.
I so believe that. I don't know how to be late.
I don't know how to, you know. When I say punctual, they told me, we will come and get you at 8.09.
You will go down to see Mrs. Obama at 8.11.
You will take a picture at 8.15. And that, guys, is exactly what happened.
So when I said, you know, punctuality, but I agree with you. I remember when favorite daughter Kirby, favorite son, Will, I would always say to them, if you had a homework assignment and you were supposed to only do three things, do five.
Get your homework in early. Yes.
You know, always do more than what is expected of you. I just wanted them to start life that way.
That's right. But this is the thing.
I didn't realize this in the book, that you moved into the White House in nine weeks from the time they won. Think about that.
She said, we needed a pencil box for Sasha, a ball gown for me. We needed a toothbrush holder.
And oh, yeah, an economic rescue package. That you're moving to a city where you don't really know very many people, and that in nine weeks, Michelle, you had to turn that around.

How did you do that? It was probably shorter than that because the election was November. We had to change the girls' school, and the semester started right at the first of the year.
Yes.

The inauguration wasn't until the end of January,

which is also why all of this is inconvenient for families. The whole presidential thing isn't structured for a family.
So I had to get them to D.C. to start school in January, even though we wouldn't have access to the home we were supposed to be living in until the day of inauguration, because I didn't want my kids starting a new school.
They already would have to start in the middle of the school year. I didn't want them to start late after the middle.
The break after Christmas was when school would start, right? So we had to get there even earlier than that. We lived in the Hay Adams Hotel.
They were like, you know, who's that little girl that lives in the hotel um eloise that's her name at the plaza they live like eloise for three weeks out of suitcases because we couldn't move into the white house you get literally one day to move in the day that the president they're moving out the same sitting president leaves, his stuff goes out one door, your stuff comes in, and in the middle of the parade and all that, you see that pomp and circumstance, they're moving our stuff in. Yeah.
But the kids had been in school for three weeks before inauguration. So we've tried so hard to create a sense of normalcy for the kids, to keep them on a schedule, to keep them feeling with the abnormal, crazy thing we put them through, that they were just regular kids living regular lives.
You always made that clear, that your main priority was your children. You know, this was very wonderful, being in the White the White House.
But your main concern was for your children. I can remember when you were campaigning and said, I want to do something in the morning and get back.
I want to be back when the kids go to bed. And I was always in awe of that.
I am Kristen Jones. I'm co-founder and partner at Inside Projects.
And I am Mrs. Obama's former assistant from the White House and also a friend.
So when I think about what I've gained from the experience of not just working with Michelle, but also being her mentee and building a really deep friendship with her, I think one of the biggest things I've gained is just a multi-generational friend group. How much the wisdom of Michelle and her friends, who are all mentors to me, has helped me evolve at what I think is a much more rapid rate than it would have been if I did not have those women in my life.
This includes

everything from calling Dr. Malone if I have a doctor's appointment and something is confusing

to me or calling Michelle Norris if I'm having writer's block or I'm trying to figure out

something with how I do a presentation. All of these women are there for me and I think I've

just learned that it's been really beneficial to have women who can consistently help me zoom out

Thank you. a presentation, all of these women are there for me.
And I think I've just learned that it's been really beneficial to have women who can consistently help me zoom out and see the bigger picture about things that are happening in my life versus having to process everything through the lens of what I am immediately experiencing and what I have experienced so far in life. They lend me their life experience in a really loving and gracious way.
We'll be right back with more of my discussion with Gail. Here's more of my conversation with Gail King.
in the book about Sasha and Malia. The truth is, you say, on page 155,

I'm hoping our daughters won't rush out of the flea market stage of life. I love this analogy that you make about the flea market stage.
What does that mean? You know, this is when you try on a bunch of stuff, you know, you're trying out life. And that's an important stage to figure figure out who you are on your own to be able to know that you can stand on your own but i i want them to try oh absolutely they're 21 and 24 yeah you know it's like you need to know all that's out there you need to know who you're going to be in a relationship.
You know, it takes a minute. And life is long if you're lucky, right? And all this rushing, young people rushing to be grown, rushing to get married.
Oh, slow down because it's waiting for you. And when you get there, you'll be like, is this it? Yeah.
Is this what I was rushing to? So take your time. I want them to work.
I want them to grow. I want them to live on their own.
I want them to learn how to pay bills. I want them to have their heart broken and get over it, you know? And that takes some time.
And if you're so focused on trying to match up, and if we only define happiness, especially for women, as you get married and you have children it just narrows things and I have just seen so many amazing women who have chosen not to be married or have kids who are perfectly happy and content yes yes yeah so and if you can't if you don't find that partner right if you aren't able to have kids, I don't want my children's life to be dependent upon a choice that is out of their control. And I don't want them to just pick anybody to say, oh, I'm married, right? Because too many of us do that.
I also advise freezing eggs, too, just to take off some of the pressure. Freeze them.
Yeah, take off some of the pressure. But I marvel, too, at how you raise them because they are both so lovely, both of them.
I was on a flight with Sasha, and she was by herself. And we arrived from Martha's Vineyard to New York.
And we landed in New York, and they had sent a cart to get me because I like a cart to take me to baggage claim

because you're in East Jesus.

You're in East Jesus.

Now, have you guys been to the airport where you walk a frigging mile and a half

to get to baggage claim?

So I don't mind paying whatever it costs to have the cart come meet me.

It's not that I'm not capable, but I'm schlepping all this stuff.

So Sasha was on the plane. I said, Sasha, you have a cart.
You know, you can, and she was doing a connecting flight. I said, you know, the cart can take you.
And she goes, I actually prefer to walk. I went, okay.
She goes, no, I actually prefer to walk. I just like being out.
And I was so struck by that. You know, it's not, she just said, no, no, no.
And I said, are you okay? She goes, I'm good, I'm good. You know, she she had on her mask so it's not like people could tell i don't like to hear that they're out there spending money like they have it but she goes no they are good girls it struck me that she said no i just want to i just want to walk i'm good what would you say that they say their experience at the white house was for them because they are in a bubble and how do you make friends and how you you really did keep them so normal I would imagine you guys had some bumps or something oh yeah I mean parenting out loud is you know parenting in front of the world yes not an easy thing um but we treated it you know we I treated parenting my girls like my parents parented me.
I wanted them to be independent early. I wanted them to be able to wake themselves up, make their own beds.
You know, they had to do their own homework. There was no helicoptering because I wanted them to rise and fall on their own merits, you know.
How did they learn to drive? That we instructed, you have to kind of instruct the Secret Service to say the kids have to learn how to drive. So we bought them one car, the Secret Service.
What kind of car was it? It's a Subaru. In fact, Sasha still has it.
She does? She has decorated it with like cow cushions and I mean, God knows what, it looks crazy. But she's driving the same car that they shared in high school so malia was first up to um to drive and so uh the agents would take them to the secret service driving range for their initial test to get them the secret service driving range there is a driving range but they went and they taught them how to drive and then they got their permits and then i said and once they have their permits they have to drive.
The Secret Service driving range. There is a driving range, but they went and they taught them how to drive, and then they got their permits, and then I said, and once they have their permits, they have to drive.
So an agent would be next to them, so I knew that they were learning how to drive. So in the car, an agent was with them.
In their car, right, and we had to make this happen, because I was like, when this is over, they're going to be out in the world, and they have to know how to drive, get through an airport, buy their own tickets. They don't get, you know, they are not first daughters forever.
That's done. But fast forward to 2022, they're now roommates.
I love that they're roommates. Malia and Sasha are roommates.
They actually like each other. And that is a big win as a parent, you know, because they didn't like each other for a while and i was like it's coming it is coming i guarantee you because the three-year age difference you know when you're seven and ten that's like oh you know but now that they're 24 and 21 sasha is a little less crazy malia is more patient and they are the best of but i always say with siblings though if all goes according to plan, the siblings will know you longer than anybody else.
Hopefully, you know, your parents will go before you do. So the bond that the two of you have is like no other.
And for them to have gone through this unique experience together that, you know, no one understands their shared trauma, their shared joy, the interesting trips that they were forced to go on, you know, the sights that they saw, the people they met. The people that they met.
Oh my God. No one else can relate to that.
So it's good that they have each other. I'm Jessica.
I'm Nicole. We're identical.
We're identical twins. We're really close.
We live together, work together. We have the same interests.
Sometimes it can be a lot, but we're each other's biggest cheerleaders. So it helps having each other around, especially when things get, you know, we did quarantine together.
Yes, it was. I think overall, I just felt really grateful to have her there because things got really scary.
And, you know, it's easy to forget now, like in 2020, we were dying for human connection. And so having my sister with me, I think, really helped.
Helped get each other through it. Yeah.
We've learned to get along really well, I think, individually through therapy appointments. So I think if we're going to be quarantined with anybody, we were a good choice for each other to be locked up together.
We'll be right back with more of my discussion with Gail. You tell a funny story about, you know, they have their own apartment and you were FaceTiming and you saw, I think it was Sasha.
I was FaceTiming with Sasha. So this is, we talk about making home, right? And one of the funnest things is when you see your adult children starting to make their own home.
Yes. And they have this apartment together, you know, and I'm FaceTiming with Sasha and Malia is, you know, she's got the Swiffer thing that goes on the mop she has it in her hand and she's you know

and i'm like hold up sasha i was like malia what are you doing she's like i'm pre-dusting i was like okay first of all i'm like you're dusting whoa impressed but i said you know there's no need to pre dust.

Have you ever heard of pledge?

And she was like tell me more about this pledge it comes in a yellow can it comes in a yellow can it's a lemony lemony fresh and you know and i because she says see the thing about dust mom you dust one day and it comes back the next day and I said yeah that's the tricky thing about dust you know I said but with pledge you pick it up and she's like fascinating so it's just fun watching them take care of their stuff better than they took care of your stuff you know it's like's like you dust your stuff. They wanted us to, we went over for cocktails for them and they made us drinks in a charcuterie tray.
Yes. First of all, they complained about the price of cheese, which is like, we didn't know.
We didn't know how much these things cost. And then we had our drinks.
They were like ah get a coaster i was like see they learned did

they use a single coaster in the the people's house they didn't care about the people's house

but they care about their house what is a song not that you like but a song that you think

represents who you are or or is it because mine is walking

on sunshine i'm so when i say i'm so happy i'm walking on sunshine that is yeah now let me tell

you something about gail i am that is gail yes you're just so crazy that's why you don't have

any wrinkles because you in the morning i don't know michelle i got a good glam team i got a good

remember that i got a good oh i've never thought about a song. That's a hard one.
Well, you don't have to have an answer. I don't have a theme song.
All my theme songs are Beyonce songs, which have nothing to do with anything. But the title is The Light We Carry.
Could you just leave us with The Light We Carry means what to you and what do you want the audience to take away from reading your book? The Light We Carry. We all have it.
You know, we all, as I said, we're born with it. But we have to learn how to nurture it for ourselves.
We can't wait for other people to nurture our light because they may not have it in them.

You know, they may be broken

in ways that we don't even know.

That's where empathy comes in.

So you can't rely too much on other people.

It starts from within.

And for us who have any access to kids in our lives,

we can help them see their light with just our kindness, our gladness, our acceptance, our warmth. Our goal should be building each other's lights up.
Yes. And feeling like we have that obligation to each other because we will all prosper.
We do not flourish in the darkness. So use your tools find them share them explore them for yourselves use this book as a guide but write your own guidebook and then talk about it with each other talk about what works for you what what more we need we have to stay hopeful there isn't a choice and if we wonder why we think about the next generation, I stay hopeful because our kids require us to be hopeful.
There is no choice. And we can do this, you all.
We've done it before. We are a good people through and through.
White, black, I don't care what. I have met people all over the world and everyone is just trying to be seen and heard and recognized.
We don't have to agree, but we have to treat each other with decency. And I think we can do better.
Yes, we can do that. Michelle Obama.
Thank you, Gail. All of us are born with a light and then life happens And we develop these fears and anxieties that try to mess with it.
I was lucky enough to grow up with parents who saw me, who nurtured me, who kindled that light. And that's what I'm trying to do for my girls.
But that doesn't mean the world never dim my light. And it doesn't mean it won't dim their light from time to time either.
Because like I said, the one thing that's guaranteed in life is uncertainty. And when it comes, our light is our life jacket.
It's our reminder that we are capable of overcoming fear and anxiety and hardship. and now that I'm not with them every day, brushing their teeth and tucking them in at night, more than anything else, that's what I want Malia and Sasha to remember.
And that's what I hope you all remember too. You can do this thing, this thing called life.
We can do this. We've just got to keep kindling the flame within ourselves and within each other.
Thanks again for listening. And thank you, Gail, for shining your light too.
I'll talk to you soon. This has been a Higher Ground and Audible original.

Produced by Higher Ground and Little Everywhere. Executive produced by Dan Fehrman and Mukta Mohan for Higher Ground.
And Jane Marie for Little Everywhere. Audible executive producers Zola Masariki and Nick D'Angelo.
Audible co-producers Keith Wooten and Glenn Pogue. Produced by Mike Richter.

With additional production by Joy Sanford,

Dan Gallucci, Nancy Golombiski, and Lisa Polak.

Production support from Andrew Eapin,

Jenna Levin, and Julia Murray.

Location recording by Jodi Elf.

Special thanks to Melissa Winter,

Jill VanLokeran, Crystal Carson,

Alex May Seeley, Haley Ewing,