“Kids Just Want Our Gladness” with Hoda Kotb

The Light Podcast is presented by Starbucks and Intuit. Okay, I am so happy to be here today.
And we are going to talk about the light we carry. All right, so y'all, you know the people who, when they walk into the room, it lights up? You walk in the room and the lights go on.
Sometimes it's bright, sometimes it's soft. But I was just

backstage talking to one of the brightest lights I have ever met, Mrs. Michelle Obama.
Hi, everyone. This is Michelle Obama, and I am thrilled to welcome you to the very first episode of my new podcast called The Light.

Like so many of you over the past couple of years, I've sometimes felt isolated, disconnected, and discouraged. So much of our lives were thrown up in the air.
Our daily rhythms were stopped. We were pulled apart from one another, and we were left to put the pieces back together alone.
The conversations in this podcast are about the ways I've tried to regain my footing, to reconnect with the people and the practices that keep me afloat. We'll be exploring the topics and questions that so many of us are wrestling with.
Questions like, how do we overcome fear? How do we connect with others when it feels like folks are drifting apart? How do we build ourselves up in a world that wants to tear us down? I know there aren't neat solutions to any of this. There are no hard and fast rules that apply to every one or every situation.
But over the course of my life, I found a few tools and attitudes that stand the test of time, principles that keep me balanced. And I'm so excited to dive into them with all of you.
to help me along the way, I'll be bringing some friends from my book tour along. Some are folks you might know on a first-name basis, Conan, Ellen, Oprah.
Others are longtime friends of mine, like Elizabeth Alexander and Gayle King. And in these conversations, we'll be discussing everything from friendship to raising good kids to going high when other folks are taking the low road.
And we'll be hearing from some folks just like you too, with some stories and reflections from members of the audience. So I am excited about this podcast, and I'm even more excited about this episode.
Y'all, there are a million things to love about Michelle Obama. But the best thing is, is she shares her journey.
She shares her hurts, her joys, her triumphs with all of us, so we can all take a page and learn a little bit about her life. She has picked up

incredible tools, ways to deal with all the things that we all deal with, and she's going to share

them with us today. So forget about lighting up the room.
Let's light up this whole place,

ladies and gentlemen, Mrs. Michelle Obama.
You all look good. It's Saturday, isn't it? It's Saturday.
It is Saturday. All right.
I kept just keeping track of time. But you know what I noticed about you? There's something, you've always been sparkly, but there's something extra sparkly about you at this time in your life.
You are 58 years old, your voice is loud and proud. What is it about this moment? Wow, I think it's freedom in so many different ways.
In this first episode, I want to talk about this idea of light,

which is not just the title of this podcast, but it's really the core of my book.

And it's fundamental to how I see the world.

I believe deeply that everyone has a light inside them.

Sometimes it's a steady flame.

Other times, it's a tiny little glimmer.

And at other moments, it's a raging fire.

But let's be honest, though.

These past couple of years,

that light has been waning for a lot of us, including me.

At times during the pandemic,

all those difficult moments where we were wrestling

with deep wounds of racism and injustice, I was struggling to stay balanced and feel hopeful. But what helped me find my footing and my center again is finding something to lean on, a practice, a tool, another person.
That's what my book is about. And that's what this podcast is about too.
Finding ways not just to protect and kindle our own light, but to share it as well so that we can illuminate a path forward together. That's really something I felt when I sat down with the dazzling Hoda Kotb.

It felt like we were feeding off of one another's light.

You probably know Hoda from the Today Show, and that's how I knew her too.

I've always loved the way she interviews.

I kept on finding myself overtaken by her warmth and positivity,

Her vulnerability was a threat to the family. always loved the way she interviews.
I kept on finding myself overtaken by her warmth and positivity, her vulnerability and her energy. She's really just wonderful.
Talking to her really is such a breath of fresh air and we just didn't want to stop. And as you're listening, I'm sure you'll start to notice that too.
Let's dive in. Now, you said that you found your voice in your 50s.
That's when you feel like you found it. You know, we are taught that we're supposed to value youth.
And the only thing you are when you are young is young. You know, you really don't come into your own.
At least I didn't feel like I came into my own until I was in my 50s. And a lot of that has to do with you think you're supposed to have it figured out.
And for all you young people, no, no. You will be confused for many decades.
And it is okay. But I'm on the other side of parenting.
You know, I'm moving from mom in chief to advisor in chief. And that's a lovely thing to be able to watch my girls fly and have the relief that, okay, I think I didn't mess them up.
When it comes to my profession, you know, I feel like I have more autonomy. And, you know, I'm still in love with my husband.
So when it all

when it when it all lines up, I don't have a reason not to glow right now, you know,

and I have my health, which we cannot ever take that for granted, especially in these times. And we should point out, one of your beautiful daughters is here with us.
I got one. That's part of my glow right now.
Whenever, when your children leave and they come back, oh, it's just like, you're here. Are you here? So I have one of them with me.
How much of yourself had to be quieted while you were in the White House? Oh, so much of it. So much of it.
Because the mission during those eight years was bigger than just my voice. You know, we were the first, hopefully not the only, but we were the first.
And when you're the first at stuff, especially the first in the biggest spotlight, the world watching you, you don't want to mess it up, you know, and you want to make sure that you are representing, you know, I talk about this in the book. The challenges when you are the first or an only, you are carrying a tray of other people's expectations along with you on the journey.
You know, one small misstep isn't just a misstep for you, but it's a misstep for your family, for your community, for your race, for all of humanity, because we don't often get a second chance. Barack and I have been the first and onlys in a number of different rooms.
And when you are that, you feel like you have to show up and there is no margin for error. So it was no accident that the administration was scandal freefree.
It was no accident that, you know, that our children had to show up right in the world. They carried a burden of making sure they weren't messy because it wouldn't have been laughed off.
It wouldn't have been just, oh, it's youthful, whatever. It would have been some bigger statement about the soul of black folks.
So we didn't underestimate that. But that, that weight is exhausting when you're carrying that.
And after the inauguration, and we know who's inauguration we were at, that day was so emotional on so many different reasons. We were leaving the home we had been in

for eight years, the only home our kids really knew. They remembered Chicago, but they had spent more time in the White House than anywhere, so we were saying goodbye to the staff and all the people who helped to raise them.
There were tears. There was that emotion, but then to sit on that stage and watch the opposite of what we represented on display.

There was no diversity there was no color on that stage there was no reflection of the broader sense of America and many people took pictures of me and they like you weren't in a good mood no was not. But you had to hold it together like you do for

eight years. And then you walk through the Capitol, you wave goodbye, you get on Marine One, and you take your last flight off flying over the Capitol, where there weren't that many people there.
We saw it, by the way.

And then we went to Andrews Air Force Base,

said goodbye to the military,

got on Air Force One,

and when those doors shut,

I cried for 30 minutes straight.

Uncontrollable sobbing because that's how much we were holding it together for eight years without really being able to show it all so I guess that's the long way of saying yeah no I I had to count my steps for eight years and so yeah that that was real are you happier now than you would. Yes, yes.
Do not get me wrong. Being first lady of this country was the greatest honor.
It was the greatest honor of my life. And I took it seriously.
I worked my butt off for this nation because I felt like if you're here for eight years, I wanted to leave and show something. I wanted to touch some lives.
I wanted to open that house up. I wanted people flowing through it.
I wanted kids to feel like they were a part of that house. So every event was well thought out.
We included a broader set of communities. We had music.
We had Girl Scouts camping out. I didn't want a day go by that that house didn't feel full and loved.
So do not get me wrong. It was a privilege to serve, but it was hard.
Yeah. And it was hard on our family.
It was hard on my daughters growing up in the spotlight. You know, you just try to make it look easy because you don't want to seem ungrateful.
The little bit that we were going through, we lived in the world. We saw tragedy, real tragedy.
We hugged people who had lost their kids to gun violence. We attended too many funerals.
I spent my time on military bases where military families were sacrificing way more than I ever did. So you don't want to talk about that because comparatively speaking, we had it easy.
But being outside of politics and outside of the divisiveness of our politics is just a better place. I just think that people can hear you better if you have a point.
If you're not a politician, that shouldn't be the case, but that's where we are. So yes, I'm happier outside of that.
There are so many beautiful things about your father. Your father had MS, and it was so interesting as I was reading about this, Meredith Vieira,

who's a dear friend of mine, her husband has MS. I remember hearing her story, yeah.
Well,

she told me there's only one good thing about MS. And I said, what is that? And she said,

it made our children better people. Yes.
It made the children better. So then I thought about you.

You're used to watching your dad struggle and you're used to being the one. I'm going to look out for him.
How did his, you call it a differentness, not a disability, how did it affect you, change you? My father, you know, I mean, if you talk about who has affected me most and how I see the world and who gave me the foundation to know that I mattered, to understand that, you know, you got to find your light from within, that it is not handed to you, nor should you expect anybody to hand it to you. It was my father because with all that he had to deal with it, he was one of the most visible people I knew.
He was a bright light, not just for us, but for his siblings, for my mother's siblings, for his extended family. He was the core and he was satisfied with his life.
You know, he was satisfied with what many of us would think would be this small life, but he knew his life was big. He knew he was fortunate.
So whatever challenges he faced, he turned those into gold. And so it's hard for me to ever feel sorry for myself.
It's hard for me to ever let anybody else get me down

because I think about what my father did,

getting up every day to go to work,

not complaining, being an honest man,

being an honest broker,

which is one of the reasons that helped me see that in Barack.

You know, I saw those qualities in him

in the same way I saw them in my father. Yeah.
My mother-in-law is legitimately the kindest person I think I've ever met in my life. So, for example, she even did it maybe just the other day where she'll send me a text message just saying, like, just the most amazing things.
Like, oh, you're such an amazing mother. And I'm so we're so happy that you're ours and I'm so glad that you're you know things like that and you know on a regular like she's sending me these text messages but I think those are the small things that really add up to what kindness should look like she just said have you seen Michelle Obama yet just thinking about you right and it's like things like that so thoughtful and I appreciate it like you remember that going to see Michelle Obama.
You thought she texted me about it because I'm sure she wants to talk about it. Those are the things that really help build and maintain really great relationships.
And I'm so grateful for it. We'll be right back with Hoda.
You know what I love? You said something to me the other day. You said, you know, Barack can say to me, you're beautiful, you're ravishing, the sun rises and sets on you, and he can mean all those things, yet if you don't feel it inside yourself, that kind of that love for yourself, which is elusive for all of us, we're all kind of trying to find it, it doesn't land well, even though he's telling the truth.
Well, it's the power of the voices in our head, the negative voices. And I am not immune just because I put on nice clothes and I give good speeches and I lived in the White House.
A lot of people think, oh, you too have doubt. You too have negative thoughts in your head? Yes, probably more than most because I am subject to the public discussion where everyone is discussing your weight, your height, your size.
Everyone feels like they can comment on your life. So yeah, we all have those negative images.
And one of the chapters in the book I write about, one of the earlier chapters I call Starting Kind. And it's just about learning to give yourself messages of gladness and having that as a practice because we live the opposite in our minds.
We generally wake up and look at ourselves and we find all the things wrong, that running list of things that only we know, even if the rest of the world can't see it. But if we don't start practicing kindness for ourselves and gladness, it's hard for us to give it to other people.
Sometimes when our kids walk into the room, we greet them with what's called a critical eye. Like Malia came in and she was wrinkled.
Whatever she had on was very wrinkly. And she was actually coming to my hotel room to find the steamer.
She walks in, maybe the second time I saw her this morning, and I was like, you're wrinkly. You're going to do something about this.
And she's like, yeah, mom, I'm going to. And then I thought I did it.
You know, I greeted her instead of what I felt, which is, sit on my lap, give me a kiss. I'm fixing things.
I'm pointing out, oh my God, your hair is not right here. What Toni Morrison says is that, you know, our kids just want our gladness.
They don't need us to fix them. They don't need us to point out the thing that's wrong first And I write about that because that is a practice.
I know that I try to practice that with kids in the world I understand the power of the gladness. I can give them me michelle Obama, the first lady of the United States, I know that when I am interacting with kids that it means something for me to see their specialness.
And so that's why we spent so much time with kids because what I do understand is that there are a lot of kids who can live their whole life and not be received with gladness. And I just think, man, if this interaction is their chance to be seen by somebody and somebody that they think is important, I'm not going to squander it.
But it's also there as a reminder to all of us that we've got to be careful with how we communicate with young

people. And sometimes, you know, our limits get in the way, especially out in the world when we

dehumanize kids, when we don't see kids as our own, you know, sometimes you attack them like

they're a grownup. You shoo them out of your store you treat them like they don't belong in a museum they are nuisances and as adults showing them that leaves a mark on them and I know whether it's road rage or some kid standing on the corner that you don't know or somebody who's in your business establishment making too much noise we have to remember they're still young people and we are still the models of showing them the best parts of themselves you know um and i i see us messing with kids you know we see it on the streets some kids selling a lemonade and a neighbor calling the police on them.
For an adult to do that to a child is a sin and a shame. But when that happens, a lot of times it's because they haven't learned to greet themselves with gladness.
Now, as an adult, I can look back at that. When that happens to me, I can see the other person's brokenness.
Children cannot make that distinction. They cannot look at some crazy adult saying something to them and wonder, well, what happened to you today? You know? So it is incumbent upon us to figure that out for them.
Well, we have four kids now. We have a newborn who's six weeks old.
We have a three-year-old, a seven-year-old, and a nine-year-old. Three of them through adoption and one through surrogacy.
And we were very fortunate when our worker said that there were two boys who needed a forever family. So they were two and five.
And so we took them on. We got called that there was a baby who was a safe surrender baby.
And our worker had a selection of families to go with. And she chose us because of our unique situation.
We're a same-sex couple. And she says that she wanted our daughter to be able to grow up knowing that the family will be able to explain that family doesn't mean just traditional family, that it can be something unique like our situation and that that's OK, that we're still a family.
And so she picked us and she fought for us, actually. By the way, he is an attorney and he works as like a disability rights advocate.
And this guy is at daycares to make sure that they're compliant with the state laws and regulations. So you really couldn't find two better parents and a better position to raise good kids.
That's so sweet of you. Thank you.
And so that's our daughter. And then we were already in the process of surrogacy.
So that's three. And then our surrogate bore our child on October 14.
So she's only six weeks old. So that's how we have a family of four kids, my husband and I, and we're a full house.
We'll be right back with more of my discussion with Hoda Kotb. What are you telling them about having their own families? Because I think there's pressure, obviously, on a lot of people to be like, oh, when are you going to get married? When are you going to have kids? How do you advise them through that? I write about this in partnering well.
I mean, I want my daughters to have a broad view of what happiness can look like. And I think we do a disservice, particularly to women.
You You know, I mean, you get that all the time. You know, first, you could have an amazing career and somebody says, are you married? My grandmother used to do this to me.
I'm in law school at Harvard. My grandmother would call me to chat and first thing she would say, what did you cook? I'm like'm in law school there isn't even a kitchen around you know but that becomes the expectation you're a young woman are you married yeah I'm not I'm not I don't mean I don't mean to call you out in particular because we don't ask that question anymore you know and? And then if you are, oh, when are you going to have a baby? Not knowing, can you? Do you want one? You know, what kind of pain that generates? It's almost like saying, oh, well, you're married, but oh, you can't really be happy.
And then you have one kid, what do they want to know? Oh, are you going to have a boy? You're going to have another one?

It is just, it feels like it's never enough. Because we don't know what life will hand them.
Maybe you find love, great. But don't get married to check a box to respond to somebody else.
Because there are so many ways. And Hoda, you are a living, breathing example of how many ways you can build a life and have a family and have happiness, you know, and we should not be making you question that.
And we tend to do that. And I don't want, I want my daughters growing up

understanding that they can have whatever life they choose. As long as they're happy, we've got their backs.
And I know you've dealt with that too, Hoda. Yeah.
You know, it's funny. I was, I always, I actually always wanted children, but I never said it out loud because I was married, divorced, and I had breast cancer all during that window when it's supposed to happen.
And so I just never spoke about it. And one day I was walking just down the street with a good friend of mine, and she said casually, well, we never wanted kids, you know, just, you know,

she's married, been married for years. And for the very first time I said, well, actually I did.

And she goes, you never said it. And I said, well, I never said it because I don't want to say

something out loud that I know I'll never be able to have. So I never said it.
And then it taught

me something in that minute. And it's, if you want something, say it out loud, even just to yourself in the bathroom mirror, say it.
Because Michelle, after I said it out loud, I have chills on my body. After I said it out loud, I said, I saw a story about Sandra Bullock, my exact age, who just adopted a child.
And I go, oh my gosh, everywhere I turned, I saw possibility. So I decided I'm going to fill out the paperwork, and I did all the things I was supposed to do.
I'm sitting in my office, and I'll never forget it. And I got a text, and it said, it was from Ashley, and Ashley from the adoption agency said, if I ever text you, call me immediately.

So I saw the text.

It said, call me.

And I took out a yellow pad like this one, and I wrote, 11.05 a.m.

You knew it was going to be something.

This is the moment.

I dialed the number, and she said two words. She's here.
Oh, wow. And I knew in that moment, Michelle, like, my whole life, I love you too, my whole life changed.
And I thought to myself, well, why not me? I think that's the question because some blessings come early. Yeah.
Some blessings come later. You don't really know when your blessing is going to come.
But I think if you don't say it, whether it's your dream job, your dream place to live, your dream, like I think sometimes we all get quieted. We're not shy.
We get quieted. Well, because we live in a world, a society, a country where we're taught that only certain people's stories matter, that there's like only one way to be human.
And it's really limited. It looks like a certain race, a certain gender, a certain income class, which is sometimes why we gravitate

to leaders that look like that because they look like they should know something. But it's also why it's important for us, you know, when we have platforms to be vulnerable and share our stories so that we start rewriting the story of who matters.

We have to all put our stories out there. We have to rewrite the story of who matters and who counts.
But if we're hiding it, you know, if we're not stating our truth because it doesn't fit into a certain definition, then we're just keeping the definition of what's important, what is American, you know, what has value. We're hiding behind that.
And we've got to broaden the spectrum of what it means to be American, what it means to be accepted, what it means to be loved, who deserves it, you know?

But we all have to be vulnerable in that regard. So I'm glad you're sharing that part of it, because there's going to be somebody out there.
There's a woman out there right now who is single or divorced, who doesn't see herself as someone who should be a mother, because it didn't take the right path.

And you are an amazing mother, you know?

You know? So thank you for sharing it. Best decision of my life.
Best decision. I am Kristen Jones.
I'm co-founder and partner at Inside Projects, and I am Mrs. Obama's former assistant from the White House and also a friend.
Recently, I attempted to get my ex frozen, and interestingly enough, this was something that Michelle had been talking to me about for basically the past decade. So when I went to go get it done, I had a not so great reaction to the hormones.
I was super emotional. And we ended up canceling the round because my body didn't respond.
And I think she knew very deeply how hard that was for me. It wasn't just that the round didn't go well.
It was also just coming to this deep self-acceptance with myself that I cannot control this piece of my life that I want so badly. And so I called her out of the blue in the middle of a Tuesday and she didn't pick up, but she called me back five minutes later and was just like, I was on a meeting, but I saw you called.
What's up? And I just let it all out. I was crying.
I was so upset. I was telling her the story.
And she just stopped her day to completely ground me. And she shifted the perspective for me on the importance of understanding what you can control in this life and what you cannot control in this life and how to usher in a spirit of acceptance around those things.
And she actually

sent me a really beautiful text when we got off the phone. And she said some things that I think

are just relevant and true for a lot of people. She said that for a lot of people, their life

trajectories are going to be different from those around them and their purposes perhaps bigger and

broader than what they might be able to imagine. And she encouraged me to embrace my individual

Thank you. those around them and their purposes perhaps bigger and broader than what they might be able to imagine.
And she encouraged me to embrace my individual process and journey through it all, practice loving myself first and reminded me that she'll always be there for me. What was the best part of raising them in the White House and what was the part you did not like.
The best part of raising them in the White House

was... What was the best part of raising him in the White House and what was the part you did not like? The best part of raising them in the White House was that, well, you know, after coming off of the campaign where dad was always gone, it was nice that he lived above the store.

So we could get back into our regular routine of dinner times together.

He could be there for bedtime.

He was there most of the time. He was able to go to all their parent-teacher conferences and all their little concerts.
He was able to be involved in their life. He coached Sasha's fourth grade girls basketball league, which was a trip, right? Because he wasn't supposed to coach.
This is fourth grade. They were called the Vipers.
In fourth grade, these little girls cared more about putting their shirts up and tucking them in than having their shoes tied. So, but it was all the fourth grade girls in the school and it was parent, and it was in a Y in the neighborhood, and Barack is a basketball junkie.
The parents who were coaching really didn't know how to coach. So he's sitting there at the games, and he's like, they're not running any plays.
And I'm like, I know, I know. They should be passing.
Matri should be under the net. This, I don't know, what are they doing? So he started easing down to where the coach's table was each game.
And he was like, you know, first of all, she needs to tie her shoe. So you imagine, you're the parent coach that doesn't know basketball and the president of the United States is like checking you.
By game four, he was on the bench. He started running practices because he was like, if we're going to have, they want, they should have two plays.
He's like, we're just going to work on two plays. He designed two plays.
I remember one was called Box. They had names, the plays.
And then, so he started having all the girls come to one of the gyms in the department of something that had a gym. He and his assistant, Reggie Love, they started running these girls through drills.
So they'd have practice on Wednesday if there wasn't like a G summit or a national crisis, you know, when he was in town and then he would be at the games on Sunday and they got good. But imagine what that game was like for the other team, right? Because it was Sasha and it was also Maisie Biden, the biden granddaughters are good friends with the girl maizey was actually is actually an amazing athlete so on any given on any given game day when we and we would all go so now you're playing against the vipers who's in the gym the president the first lady the vice president the second lady all of our kids their parents and all of our secret service there was an ambulance outside there were helicopters flying over there were snipers at the door.
And then, like, Joe would be yelling, like, pass, Maisie, blocker. And you could see the other parents were all, like, quiet, like, what's going on here? This doesn't seem fair.
Oh, my gosh. And they won the championship.
They did. They did.
They won the championship. It became a thing.
So, I went a little long. That was being able to, for us, for him to be able to be engaged in that way was a beautiful thing.
All right. I've got so much to talk about, but we have questions I want us to get to, so I'm going to get to this.
Daisy from New York has this question for you, Miss Obama. I just graduated from college and I'm starting my career in New York City.
What advice do you give your daughters when it comes to dating, money, and prioritizing their mental health? Ooh, okay, quick. Take your time.
You know, so many young people are rushing to the other end of what? Yeah. You know, what's waiting for you? Work? And it's going to be there.
Be patient with yourself. And think broadly about what your life can be.
I just tell my kids, there's, as I was just saying, there's so many ways to be happy. There's so many ways to find joy in life.
And you're just starting the journey. You're in the experimental phase.
You know, a lot of kids leave college and they feel kind of lost because they've done the thing that they were supposed to do. And now they're at the end of it.
And it's like, oh my God, there wasn't a pot of gold at the end of this rainbow. It's just life.
And so now you're going to start to explore. You're going to try on jobs.
You're going to not like them. You're going to learn from that stuff.
You may be trying on things until you're 40 years old. I am still becoming.
I have not stopped evolving. So don't get frustrated with the learning process.
And because there's time, make room for your mental health. Prioritize it.
Eat right. This is what's

up. Are you eating vegetables? This is what I'm going to tell you.
Eat your vegetables.

Get some sleep. Nine times out of 10, if you're dragging, it's because you've been up since 3 a.m.

every night partying with your friends and then going to work. Did you go to sleep?

You just might need a nap. Ladies and gentlemen, Michelle Obama.
Thank you, Hoda. Oh, I love Hoda.
I thought Hoda really shared a beautiful part of herself in her story when she was so open about becoming a parent. And while our stories are different, there's so much we share.
Because when I think about my own light, my girls, my daughters are right at the center of it too. When they're doing great, the world feels great.
And when they're not, well, everything just feels out of place. Every parent will tell you the same thing.

That's why it was so meaningful to connect with Hoda and our fabulous audience members

about this challenging, sometimes maddening, but ultimately beautiful experience of being parents.

What a great conversation.

Thank you all for listening.

Talk to you again soon. Produced by Dan Fehrman and Mukta Mohan for Higher Ground and Jane Marie for Little Everywhere.
Audible executive producers Zola Masariki and Nick D'Angelo. Audible co-producers Keith Wooten and Glenn Pogue.
Produced by Mike Richter. With additional production by Joy Sanford, Dan Gallucci, Nancy Golombiski and Lisa Polak.
With production support from Andrew Eapin, Jenna Levin and Julia Murray. Location recording by Jodi Elf.
Special thanks to Melissa Winter, Jill VanLokeran, Crystal Carson, Alex May Seeley, Hayley Ewing, Marone Hailey-Meskel, Sierra Tyler, Carl Ray, Njeri Radway, Meredith Koop, Sarah Corbett, Tyler Lechtenberg, and Usra Najum. The theme song is Unstoppable by Sia.
The closing song is Lovely Day by Bill Withers. Audible Head of U.S.
Content Rachel Giazza. Head of Audible Studios Zola Masariki.
Copyright 2023 by Higher Ground Audio LLC. Sound recording copyright 2023 by Higher Ground Audio, LLC.

Voice over by Novena Carmel.

This episode was recorded live

at the Met in Philadelphia. You can hear more of our conversation on Hoda's podcast,

Making Space with Hoda.

Search for Making Space wherever you get your podcasts.