Episode 594: History

Like a midnight and the rock and roller He's in a fight for wrestling solar Using a racket and some mind controller He's Jim Cornette

The keys to the future held by the past And with tag team partner Barion last He sends this message out by podcast He's Jim Cornet

He never backs down from a fight.

He never wins the pony because his mama raised him right.

It's time

to perform

your mind.

Get the experience.

Get the experience.

Get the experience of Jim Cornette.

Hello again, everybody, and welcome to another exciting episode of the Jim Cornet Experience.

It's the Boys Just Wanna Have Fun edition.

We're just going to throw out all of the negativity of modern times, and we're going to talk about the fun stuff of pro wrestling history, something you're not going to hear on any of the other podcasts, and joining me in all this and so much more.

Hawaiian Brian, the podcasting lion, the king of the Arcadian Vanguard Podcast Network, Mr.

Co-host to you.

He's going to have so much fun, you're going to have to wipe the smile off his face with a sandblaster.

Be great, Brian last, everybody.

Aloha, Jim.

A pleasure to be here once again.

I'm looking forward to today's show.

We didn't have to watch anything or review anything.

It's kind of just come as you are,

B-O-B,

or B-Y-B, B-O-B.

Bombs over Baghdad is what it is.

No, it's be right back.

What are you doing?

Well, we didn't have fun today.

I think that's the point.

Come as you are, as you were, were, as you wanted to be, or whatever the fuck that is.

Wow, that's pretty good.

I don't think most people would ping you as someone who would know any lyrics to Nirvana.

They used that

incessantly on ECW,

and it played in all of the diners and Northeastern establishments of that time period that I was forced to endure.

And I've got that part in my, I don't know what he says when he starts screaming.

He's over my head then.

But otherwise, it was melodic up to that point.

But you know what we're doing today, Brian?

And I'll tell the people what we're doing because the people need to know what we're doing.

I've made an executive decision that I've got so much stuff going on this week that I could not record at the normal time because of personal and familial and

other business reasons that we're doing this a couple of days early so that I got time to get all that stuff done and everybody else gets a little break around here.

Anybody got any problems with that?

Stacey.

Well, no, she'd have a problem if I didn't do this.

That's what, so

the point is, we don't have any, unless somebody crashes their car on the Merritt Parkway or something like that,

then we would come back with some breaking update.

But we've recorded this before normal so that we're just, we're going to delve into the getting away back machine and delve into some wrestling history and tell people

some things.

Possibly we are breaking some news, Brian, here on this program today

and

rewriting the history books of not only wrestling, but television.

So if that's, that's a good little tease for you.

I had no idea when I showed up today that we were going to do all this.

That's amazing.

Well, see, you would have dressed better.

If you knew we were rewriting history today, you wouldn't have come as you are i would have showered something you would have you

i've been meaning to talk to you about the bathing thing um

but we're going into my files we're going into the feffer files we're going into some research that i've done we're going to talk about a variety of things fun things today on the program as i said but

a programming note we got an off topic I just thought about this.

I was going to bring it up.

And if you've seen the whole thing, don't tell me what happens or don't spoil it for me.

But there's a series on one of the

pissing channels, the streaming channel services.

I don't know where it is.

Stace puts it up on the television, but we've started watching it.

And

you know, I have so much time to sit around and watch TV.

I've got through the first three episodes in the last like week and a half, but I'm trying to apply myself.

The penguin, have you seen this?

Have you heard about this?

Oh, I thought you were were going to talk about WWE Unreal.

No, I have not.

No, I said not related to wrestling.

Exactly.

I thought you were going to talk about WWE Unreal.

Oh, God damn it.

Oh, and by the way, by the time that we come back with another program,

folks out there that care about that type of thing, we'll have seen the rest of the Unreal and know what's going on there and let you know in case you just want the reader's digest version.

But the penguin.

I had not heard about it.

No, who's in it?

Well, I don't know, but apparently he doesn't look like himself.

I will elaborate further.

The penguin is obviously based on the Batman villain,

but this is like they have.

I don't know, you know, again, I haven't read the comics.

The comics, the funny papers, I haven't read them

since I was a collector back in the 70s.

I know the penguin.

He's got the umbrella.

It's Burgess Meredith.

Everybody knows that.

Whatever the fuck.

but

but they have updated this thing and apparently stace showed me a picture of the guy i can't remember his name i don't know any of these young fancy dan actors but he's not like really a fat

ugly looking they've made him up

But he is the driver, or he started out in crime.

They do flashbacks and all this shit.

I don't know.

I'm nodding off by the end of it just because I'm exhausted.

But he started out as the driver for Sophia Falcone, who was the daughter of the Falcone crime family in Gotham City.

And they stuck her in the fucking Arkham Asylum for 10 years on trumped up charges.

And she came out a wacko and is trying to take over the crime, but he's double-crossing her.

All this other shit's going on.

But he looks like the, they've got him in the the makeup and the outfit where he looks like the penguin.

And he,

his

waddle is explained that he's got, you know, the

brace on his leg.

Like when I was a kid,

I'm sure they've modified these things, but there were kids that had braces on their leg, and that's why he waddles around.

And it's, it's, it's very, it's very dark and

exciting and

penguin-y.

Oh, you know what?

You should see this.

Yeah, it's Colin Farrell.

Colin Farrell.

I've heard that name somewhere.

Must be wearing a ton of makeup.

I got to check this out.

This is on HBO, it says.

Oh, well, there you go.

So, but we've been watching on, because we're apparently it's, I don't know how many episodes they've done.

Like I said, I've seen the first three,

but you got to see the penguin.

I don't know when the umbrella with the poisonous gas comes in.

I'm assuming that's in later episodes.

What do you think of like when they go back and they revisit like these characters that we all know?

It could be the penguin, it could be any superhero or villain, and they give you the origin story and they,

you know, either do it the same way.

I don't know if this is the way Bob Kane envisioned it or not.

I don't know if he ever envisioned anything.

Who knows when it comes to the origin of the penguin?

But what are your thoughts about like revisiting some of these characters and showing them from a different perspective or anything?

Well, this, I like this treatment, as they say in the business.

I like, you know, the way that they're

making, because let's face it, you know, the 30-minute,

24 minutes with commercials or whatever, 66 Batman series didn't have time to flesh out

not only the origin stories of the penguin, but also make him possibly the most realistic character.

So I like this is, it's cool to see.

the same character, but done in a realistic fashion and with, you know, something going on.

So far, it's good now you can also take somebody and completely it up if it's no good it is just preposterous or

little orphan annie becomes a little orphan dick as i said here a couple weeks ago or the silver surfers a woman or whatever

let's let's let's try to take the

the original concept and just make it realer

than the comics were able to instead of changing the shit around after it's already over to where it's not the same

thing.

Yeah, last time I talked about that with you, got a lot of negative feedback from people.

Like, they had a female silver surfer in the comics.

You didn't know it was.

Yeah, I said that.

I literally said in the segment that I was talking to someone, explaining how, oh no, this is all part of the multiverse.

Don't worry about it.

That wasn't the point.

It's the Fantastic Four finally getting a movie done the right way, allegedly.

I want to see the real Silver Surfer.

Yeah, and I want to see the invisible girl, not the invisible woman.

She was the invisible girl, god damn it.

I'm just telling you, if you go back, go back and look if you can afford the copy, not you, but the

if you can afford to read about the fantastic four.

If you can afford the original or get a good quality reprint, and there are plenty of those.

And

the invisible girl.

What did you think of the X-Men, like the original

X-Men when they first met?

You know what?

That was cool because, again,

I got the early X-Men.

I think the first, I know I got the X-Men one I got from Larry and Richard, the box of comics that I got from my cousins that led to my fascination and obsessive comic collecting for those years.

X-Men 1 was in there.

And several of the early, like, I think one, maybe three, seven, was seven the vulture?

Why am I?

No, I'm not, I'm thinking wrong.

But nevertheless, what did you think of Spider-Man?

What did you think of mutants?

But that was the best part about it was Professor X, the bald-headed, you know, telepath in the wheelchair in his castle and

workshop and whatever the fuck.

That was, that was the cool shit.

But they were reasonable mutants, maybe except for

I don't know about a guy that can transform himself into a block of ice at will, but like the beast and,

you know, Cyclops had the fucking heat vision and all that stuff.

So it was still on the side of, you know, they're not trying to insult a seven and eight and nine-year-old's intelligence.

And were you done collecting when they reintroduced them, the new X-Men, the uncanny X-Men, giant-size X-Men number one?

Yes, believe it or not.

That's the one goddamn major collector's item of the 70s that I

was out right about that same time because I started going to wrestling so often and I started taking pictures and the blah blah blah.

And how much time was there in the day?

Newman.

All right, this has been a happy talk.

Well, there you go.

Wait, you're the one asking about the A.

Are you, what do you got?

A mutant thing going on?

Some kind of mutant mutant thing?

I wouldn't admit it.

I want to play a game with you.

Uh-oh.

Because remember, we did this last week.

Was it on my program or your program or one of the programs that we did?

Letters to Pfeffer,

where I read a letter that was written to Jack Pfeffer

and see how long, how far I get through it before you figure out who's writing a letter.

You remember that game, don't you?

I do.

That was a lot of fun.

well let's do it again because i got a lot of stuff here

this was addressed to jack pfeffer at the hotel bostonian

in boston massachusetts march 17 1953 i'm not going to tell you where it came from what 53 in boston no i'm just i'm figuring it out already Well, I'm not going to, this is coming from somewhere else.

That's where Pfeffer was.

The fact that he was there, that says something.

Okay.

Well, there.

Well, there you go.

Okay.

Now you're a goddamn sleuth with this.

Okay.

I see where this is going.

Dear Mr.

Pfeffer, hey,

that's the sound, folks.

When he figures out who this is, you're going to hear his buzzer

sound in.

The Scott Cornish horn.

I liked his hens also.

Those little chickens he made for dinner.

Dear Mr.

Pfeffer, I had Tommy Phelps to write you about my working for you.

And since I have not heard from you, I thought it best to follow up with a letter from myself.

I've been working for Mr.

Mack and Mr.

Maurice Beck for some time now, keeping books for Mr.

Mack in the daytime and wrestling once or twice a week at night.

And they tell me that I've improved a great deal.

However, Mr.

Mack, as well as Mr.

Beck,

think that you can do wonders toward him.

This is typed and it's,

there was no correction back then.

So he's typing over some of these letters, right?

Thinks that you can do wonders toward improving my working ability.

In fact, they both tell me that you can do more for me than any other promoter in the country.

And I would most certainly appreciate the opportunity of working for you.

And this is the thing.

You will see that Pfeffer people hated him like the plague and other

people

thought he was the greatest thing because of his record of success one way or the other that had ever happened in wrestling, right?

Anyway, the letter continues.

I've worked out with Nature Boy several times, and he tells me that I've got what it takes to make a good worker if given the chance.

I am sending you a couple of pictures of myself in order that you can get an idea of what you might be able to do with me.

I've played college football for Southern Methodist University, as well as one year of professional.

All right.

Give it to me.

Fritz von Herck.

Actually, you are not correct.

Jack Atkinson.

You are correct.

You are correct, sir.

I will finish the letter because listen to the sentence that I was in the middle of and tell me what you think

that he was trying to say here.

I have played college football for Southern Methodist University, as well as one year of professional football for the New York Yankees.

Huh.

That's

now

he is.

There was a New York football team.

I think he tried out for

some professional team at some point, but did he just brain fart?

Because he'd only been there a little while?

Or what?

i'm uh whatever i'm googling this now i don't see any record of a new york yankees

football team did fritz ever play baseball

not that certainly not for the yankees i can guarantee that but no not that i am aware of no

anyway i'm six feet four inches tall and weigh 255 pounds and am 23 years old i have now had quite a few matches and am definitely determined to stay in the wrestling profession

appreciate hearing from you as soon as you have a chance to get, I'm very anxious to get started.

He lived at 3110 Hall Street, H-A-L-L in Dallas, Texas in March 1953.

Fritz von Eric.

So that's also interesting.

What was the date on that?

March 17, 1953, which was not long.

It's in the middle of the war.

That was in the war.

And wasn't it?

Didn't they it was the fire right before that or right after that or did they open the new sportatorium right after that?

The fire am I thinking?

I think the fire was it was spring of 53, wasn't it?

So

maybe the arsonist

get out of there.

Yeah, he's trying to get out of town.

Mr.

Pfeffer, I was told once I lit this building on fire, there's only one promoter who would work with me.

No, we're not

do not know, nobody print that we're accusing Fritz of arson of the

sport of Tori, but

he burned down the house later on, literally.

It's also interesting because this is 10 years before the letter you read last week from Bill Watts when he was breaking in.

Same thing.

I was told to write to you that you could help me.

And again,

you know, it's a pattern and I've got some things to read to you, you'll get a kick out of.

But

before that, I'll give you something you won't get a kick out of.

Do you

see?

because also you, ha, ha,

you've won all of these letter contests, bastard.

Football season is here, and now you can legally bet on football in all 50 states with Calci, the nation's largest legal prediction market.

Every game, every prop, every parlay, Cal Shi has it.

And it doesn't stop at sports.

You can trade on elections, the Oscars, and more.

You can finally bet on football in all 50 states.

Download Calci today at kalshi.com.

Use code RADIO for $20 when you trade 100.

Calci, get in on the action.

This is an investment that carries risk.

Calshi.com.

Do you remember, Brian, who the wrestling promoter was in

based in Detroit, and he was associated with the Pfeffer and Haft

combination at the time, but he was the promoter for Michigan and based in Detroit in the 1930s.

Do you remember his name?

Oh, I'm forgetting the name, though.

Would it help if I said, if I reminded you he was a cousin of a famous movie star?

No, at this very second, it would not help me.

Deep cut.

Yay, I got him.

Adam Weissmueller.

Oh, oh, that's right.

Yeah.

I actually know.

I know the name.

Obviously, I know Johnny Weissmuller, but I...

I've seen the name for the wrestling promoter.

I just never realized they were related.

They were cousins.

And apparently, Johnny Weismueller's grandson is named Adam.

One would possibly imagine from this guy.

And for the kids, you can Google him if you care.

But briefly, Johnny Weisbueller was a four or five time gold medalist in the 1924 and 1928 Olympics and swimming for the United States.

And

he ended up being cast as Tarzan in MGM's first big budget Tarzan, Tarzan the Ape Man, 1932, which was such a hit.

He played the part in the spin-offs for the next 16 years and was synonymous.

That was the most famous run of Tarzan movies.

They used to have Tarzan Theater on Channel 11 here in Louisville every Saturday afternoon, I think at two o'clock.

And

they would they would alternate that with, oh my God, who else was it?

I can't remember now.

Six months, you'd get Tarzan and six months you'd get somebody else, whatever.

But I can,

okay,

Brian,

count these.

Can I list the from memory the Johnny Weiss Mueller Tarzan movies?

1932, Tarzan the Ape Man,

1934, Tarzan and his Mate,

1936, Tarzan Escapes,

1939, Tarzan finds a son,

1941, Tarzan's Secret Treasure,

1942,

Tarzan's New York Adventure.

1943,

Tarzan Triumphs.

I can't remember if there was, there was, I think, 44, he was,

it was a mystery of some kind.

And then Tarzan and the Amazons, Tarzan and the Leopard Woman, Tarzan and the Huntress, and Tarzan and the Mermaids in 1948.

That's 12.

So in 16 years, he did 12 Tarzan movies, his most famous fucking Tarzan in the history of movies.

And but meanwhile, his cousin, as I said, had been the wrestling promoter in Detroit, and I looked him up.

He died of cancer at 37 years old in 1937.

So I found

because Pfeffer was involved in sending the talent to Michigan along with Al Halft from Ohio,

he got a box office report.

This was just random in one of these files.

It's chaos, even if you kind of have an idea what you're looking for.

But that's the gross for all the wrestling shows apparently in the state of Michigan for like a five-day period in 1936.

Would you like to hear this?

Absolutely.

Does it also say who was there?

No, it's just a ledger book

with date 16 Detroit, 16 Flint, 16 Windsor, 17 Hazelpot, that type of thing.

And

the net, it says the net.

And then

the only town that has an expense and a profit is Detroit because Weiss Mueller handled that directly.

And the rest of it was local promoters.

So it has a booking fee that the office got.

And I mean, it's every one of these promoters had different ways of writing this down.

And there were,

I'm not an accountant, but also there were questions of literacy and sometimes English being a first language when these, a lot of these guys were doing.

their records.

So everybody did things differently, but we could extrapolate some things.

When was this in 1936?

This was the week of March 16, 1936.

And actually, it covers the days of March 16, 17, 18, 19, and 20.

Those are the only days that are covered.

Apparently, those are the only days that ran shows, but there were 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 16 shows.

during those five days out of this office.

On the 16th, and Detroit was obviously even still then the, and remember, this is in the Depression, right?

So,

god damn it, I had a note jotted down here somewhere, but it, it,

in 1936, I believe you can,

you can figure that a dollar is equal to like 22 or 23 dollars, something like what it was today, or what it is today.

But Detroit at the time, Weismueller was running a building called the Arena Gardens, but the big events would go to the Olympia Stadium, which was not an outdoor stadium as the name sounds, but the Olympia

was the building that Brewser ran opposite Sheik when he ran the Kobo.

And

I think it later became the Joe Lewis Arena that Crockett ran.

It was around from the

initially from the 20s or early 30s.

And the ticket prices at this time, they were doing,

if they would do for during this time period 4 000 fans in detroit the gate would be like

30 something 3800 or 4200

so

it you can assume that the tickets were like 50 75 cents and a dollar something like that for a lot of these shows right

but this is 1936

So on this particular week, Detroit, the net,

and I don't know how they arrived at that figure, but the net was $1,299.97.

And then out from it is expense, $1,093 and profit $206.92, but the office kicked back a booking fee to themselves of $65.

Now, this sounds like

for the listeners when you kick back a booking fee, but you're the booker.

Well, that's the thing is the office gets to take a booking fee out of, and in those days,

each town had a local promoter that would have to pay the office a certain percentage of the gate in order for that booking office to supply them with the wrestling talent for their cart.

If I'm over in Lansing, Michigan, I can't bring.

wrestlers from around the country and even back then or whenever for just to run Lansing.

I can't afford to keep a crew.

So I go to a booking office that services the whole area, which in this case would have been Detroit.

And I got to pay them

10% usually is what it was.

But back in these days, who knows?

And probably everybody had a different deal at some point.

And so then they'll book me the talent and I promote the show.

I pay the building, I pay the advertising, I pay the boys, I pay the booking fee.

And I hope hope to God

that I got something left over.

But when the promoter also owns the booking office,

he can write as an expense off of his own show booking fee and put it back in his goddamn company's account.

And say, again,

you know, I don't,

this might have been involved in or might not, because it's a separate column, in expense of the show,

but he's basically showing a profit of $206.92,

which

again, today would be somewhere around $5,000.

But the more interesting thing is, I'm not going to read all these amounts to you, but I want to read you the towns and then the total

because

all these other towns that they were booking talent out to

were drawn between,

you know, Owasso.

I'm not even sure where Owaso is.

Is there an Owasso, Michigan?

Because its net was $181.

Now, that would be like doing a $4,000 spot show, you know, today.

But it's still with tickets not even a dollar across the board.

They're drawing several hundred people, they're from $200 to $600 in these other towns.

Flint, Michigan, Windsor, Ontario, Hazel Park, Lansing, Deutsches House.

I don't know if that's a building name or what.

Owaso, Alpena, Pontiac, Michigan, Muskegon, Ypsilanti, Monroe, Grand Rapids, Flint, Dearborn, and Lakeshore.

They had

In those five days, live wrestling events in all those different towns that that were drawing anywhere from 200 to, you know, up to 1,500 people or whatever it was in Detroit.

And the total

gates of all of that five days is $6,500, which still doesn't sound

incredibly

impressive now until you realize that's almost $150,000 today.

In 1936, you could buy four or five brand new cars for $6,500.

The average family income

per year was like a third of that.

So, putting in perspective, what is the?

I don't have the map in front of me, but I recognize most of those towns.

You weren't leaving Detroit and going farther than 150 miles and running all with no television, just all those little buildings and all those places and with crews of wrestlers.

All those auto workers.

There you go.

And

so

when you're talking about it a week, that little local territory with no television and trips not that long could gross the equivalent of $150,000 in five days, $150,000 today.

It's just fascinating to me.

You know, I just found some research that Tim Hornbaker did.

It's on his old website, legacyofwrestling.com

right after this period of time.

In the Wednesday, April 1st, 1936 edition of the Detroit News, it was stated that Michigan Wrestling and Boxing Commissioner or Commission Chairman James M.

Bingo Brown has suspended the new heavyweight champion, Dick Schickat, from appearing in this state for his failure to appear for scheduled matches in Tennessee and Indiana.

Michigan had a working agreement with those two states.

Schickatt was scheduled to make an appearance in Detroit Monday, but because of his runouts will not be allowed to wrestle here.

He is under contract to promoter Adam Weissmuller for Michigan.

Schickatt was scheduled to wrestle John Leon Gradovich at the Arena Gardens on Monday.

The paper also indicated that there was a battle between promoters.

The suspension of Schickat was interpreted in wrestling circles as an exchange of blows between the two rival Detroit wrestling promoters, Weismiller and Nick Londis.

And by the way, Nick Londis was not related to Jim Londos.

No, different spelling, ES as opposed to OS.

Just for the kids.

As well as punches between the group known as the Wrestling Trust.

and a lesser band of performers controlled by Al Haft of Columbus, Ohio, and Weismiller of Detroit.

Schickatt jumped to the Haft Weissmiller Booking Agency, a minor league trust, after Dan O'Omahone quit to him in New York.

Until that match, Schickatt's appearances were handled through the booking agencies controlled by Jack Curley in New York, Paul Bowser in Boston, Ed White in Chicago, Tom Pax in St.

Louis, and Londis in Detroit.

Londis was a member of this trust.

So I'll stop there for a second before I go to the other interesting thing here about this period of time.

But there it is.

I mean, do you even say that's outlaw?

Was it outlaw at that time?

Or he's running against the wrestling trust.

That's the NWA in without the name.

It's the NWA.

What's that model?

Well, no, no, not even because you can't say anything was really outlaw.

Well, yeah, there's

some promoters had been at a particular spot for quite some time and others would try to come in and fuck them around.

But for the most part, there was no outlaw promotions of that period of time because so many allegiances changed, or sometimes a promoter had no choice.

If the booking agent cut him off because he got in with somebody they didn't like, he'd have to go to somebody else for it.

So they were all jumping back and forth.

And Ray Fabiani would be promoting Philadelphia in 1940, and suddenly he's at the Olympic Auditorium and the promoter matchmaker there in in 41.

They just went everywhere.

And so there's really no outlaw type of thing, but you've got something else there.

And then you mentioned Ed White.

I'll bring him back up.

Yeah, there's a couple more interesting things about this.

And again, I didn't really, I've never looked into this before, so this is all fascinating.

On Thursday, April 2nd, 1936, the Michigan State Boxing and Wrestling Commission ruled that Schickatt could fulfill his contract obligation in Detroit on Monday.

On Saturday, April 4th,

Nick Londis declared himself for gymnasium tournaments to restore the grunt and grown profession to its former high standard by eliminating gorillas, mustached fakers, bearded beasts, and small fry wrestlers,

according to the Detroit news.

So he's not taking to the Sue Well

that shit can

wrestle there.

Well,

because that's Pfeffer's guys.

Pfeffer was known for

the mustached guys and the freaks and the weirdos and the blah, blah, blah, and the gimmicks.

And so he's saying, he's declaring that he'll face any of them in the local gym for real to settle, goddamn, who's the best.

He said he had requested the National Wrestling Association to sanction a professional tournament to be held in Detroit from now until we clean out the fakers.

That's a quote.

Landis said he had suggested a tournament with matches held weekly among wrestlers who think they could last 10 minutes in a gym workout with some of the present-day chieftains.

He believed the tournament would push aside these man-eating monsters, the type that is disgusting the fans.

Instead of naming names, he mentioned the chair-smashing eye-poking Palookas whose crowd appeal depends on such stunts as eating spectators' straw hats and stinging referees.

Keith Kuchke.

Among the wrestlers Landis named as being those who could make, quote, any of the Riff Raff class say uncle

were O'Mahony, Jim Londos, Ray Steele, Stranger Lewis, Gus Sonnenberg, Jim McMillan, Man Mountain Dean, the Dusick Brothers, Hans Kempfer, Hans Stenke, Ray Richards, Fred Grumbier, Leo Newman,

Fred Grubmeier, misspelled.

Excuse me, Fred Grubmeyer, Leo Newma, Vincent Lopez, George Zaharias, Cliff Olson, and Everett Marshall.

Jesus Christ, how did Dean get in there?

He couldn't put a fucking wrist lock on his own fucking wrist.

Weissmo was called for comment and said, quote, thank him for me for the blast.

He added that it was great publicity for his Monday show, actually hoping that he would do it again before press time.

So

Adam Weissmo is really going back and forth with them, but it leads to this card here.

Detroit, Michigan, Monday, April 6th, 1936.

Shikat beats John Leo Grandovich.

Alibaba beat Al George.

Ivan Rasputin beat.

Excuse me, Ivan Rasputin and Han Schnabel went to a draw.

Walter Podolnik beat Frank Malkiewicz.

Podolik.

He would be the golden Superman.

Babyface Nelson beat Murray Warham.

Jose Manuel beat Mike Holanis.

Adam Weismuller was the promoter.

The referee Vern Clark, 3,543 fans.

Gate,

$4,419.65.

It is said to be the second largest crowd in Weissmiller's experience as a promoter here.

The previous record was Londus versus Orville Brown, which did $21,168.

Jeez.

And in the early 30s, because that was Londos'

best period.

So that would be.

Yeah, what's $21,000 then.

Yeah, really.

Oh, my God.

Well,

I can tell you that my inflation calculator notes only go back to 1940.

A dollar would be worth $23 today.

So

$20,000 times $25 or so,

whatever the case.

But you mentioned Ed White,

who was the promoter in Chicago.

that promote the big shows that Londos had done in Chicago and that everything before the

late 40s, Fred Kohler era, right?

Yeah, by the way, 21,000 in 1930, let's say, would be over $405,000 today.

Actually, here's something.

Look at 1935.

Because

of

the way that they do the inflation calculator, it's related to purchasing power.

$494,000.

Wow.

The depression, everything was devalued before the and and 1930 was the start of it but you go back in the late 20s

in madison square garden the wrestling promoters in the 1920s were charging up to ten or twelve dollars for a ringside ticket and that didn't come back in until the 60s again

things in the because of the roaring 20s things were not

you know, as tight as they would be.

And it took the 30s and 40s for that period of time for it to adjust up to

what it once was.

Some things never did.

But, nevertheless, you've heard of Ed White, Brian.

But have you heard of IT Flato?

I am not familiar with Mr.

Flateau, or I'm whatever that is.

IT Flato.

I don't know.

I as an I, T as in T, Flateau, F-L-A-T-T-O.

As funny as this sounds because when me and Tom Burke, Bobby Fulton found it, we thought it was a rib, right?

We thought that Pfeffer had concocted some kind of alter ego or whatever, but no, then we started seeing

letterheads.

And apparently,

Jack Pfeffer had found an attorney

sometime in the 1930s in New York named I.T.

Flato.

He really was an attorney at law in New York.

And he was also one of those guys that still exists today on the Independent Sea.

He was interested in wrestling.

And Pfeffer set him up with towns to run.

Remember, we talked on last week's show about

the small places like the Bronx Winter Garden or Ridgewood Arena or Ridgewood Grove, whatever it was, or Willie Gilsenberg had the Newark Armory.

Well, it was the same thing.

This guy, and I mean, the records, again, we could have sat there all day trying to figure all this shit out.

But

whatever his towns were, they were the, you know, a couple of the clubs, as they called them, around the greater New York area.

And so he was not only Pfeffer's attorney, handling everything from

his taxes to writing commission people on his behalf, but he was also promoting shows, right?

I.T.

Flato.

And this is a letter.

Is it from the Paramount Building?

Well, hold on.

I got this is this is a letter to him, so it doesn't have his,

it has Rich Ridgewood.

His address is Ridgewood Borough of Queens, New York City.

Ridgewood.

Wow.

Hold on.

Is there, I don't know if I have a Flateau letterhead in this stack of stuff here, but he was, he had a letterhead of an office in New York.

And

again, one would think it's a rib, but there's enough documentation that that he was a fucking human being.

There's official people writing to him, and he's writing back, and it doesn't sound like Pfeffer.

So Ed White from Chicago, January 9, 1937,

said, Dear Mr.

Flatto,

I have your favor of the seventh and appreciate to your interest in the wrestling business.

No idea.

I, too, am of the opinion that the game can be revived, but only if a man of your caliber gets behind it.

I have very little faith in the propositions, plans, plans, and promises of any of those now connected with the wrestling sport in and around New York, and this includes little Jack Pfeffer.

Their word means absolutely nothing.

They are very shifty and do not stay put for any length of time.

Their deals and agreements among themselves with wrestlers, promoters, in fact, with anybody, means little or nothing to them.

Each seems to think that he should boss the business and be recognized as a mastermind.

And this, in spite of the fact that for four long years, they have been rank failures.

Remember the garden wrestling business took a nosedive

about 1933, 34 with the bad publicity, et cetera, and Landos

wore off.

Pfeffer is as bad as any of them, but with you behind him, I feel confident that you can hold him down and make him stay put.

Now, bear in mind, this is in Pfeffer's file.

So, he saw this.

Even right now,

how did it get there?

Because his lawyer, he wrote this to his

I.T.

Flato.

I don't know how long he had been Pfeffer's lawyer or if he was feeling out at this point.

Flato was various promoters of people or whatever, but

this is in the Pfeffer file.

So he saved it, even though it's a letter from White to Flatow.

But listen to this.

Even right now, I think he is scheming around with different people.

He was to have been here tomorrow for a conference to propose a deal, but have just received a telegram from him advising he has a show tonight at Jersey City and therefore cannot make the appointment.

Evidently, he is using my correspondence as a wedge to set himself in with some of his former associates.

So it looks to me like it's useless to attempt to organize and maintain successful operations with men of that stripe unless, of course, a deal is made backed by you.

I think that White may think this guy's a lawyer.

He's got money, right?

But anyway, and he's trying to butter up Flato, trusting that sometime in the near future, we will be able to get together and rebuild the business back where it should be.

And I feel confident that

this can be accomplished.

So

what year was that?

January 9, 1937.

The guy, Flato, is is in Pfeffer's business for the next 15 years.

Well, you know, I googled him as you brought him up.

I've never heard the name before.

And what came up was a letter from the Charlie Chaplin archive,

where I guess he wrote in to Chaplin's attorney when Chaplin was battling a paternity suit

and gave him advice on another case.

Like, here's something that happens.

It's a very nice letter with details sending back to IT Flahto, Paramount Building, 1501 Broadway.

That's Times Square, New York, New York.

So he was involved with, you know, it wasn't just wrestling.

He was involved somehow with the bigger world of entertainment.

May 31st, 1945, the letter.

Okay, he was involved in representing Pfeffer.

There's letters that I saw ranging in dates from 37 to, I believe, early 50s because it was with his, at least early 50s, because of his tax issues.

Listen, if he was an attorney in the Paramount building in the 40s, that means he represented entertainment industry clients.

There you go.

So, and he was a wrestling promoter.

Huh.

Or at least

maybe,

maybe he wasn't out there the one hanging the posters, but he was the promoter for the clubs, for the particular clubs they gave him.

And that's a word you haven't really used that much in these discussions.

But, you know, I always think of Bruno San Martino because he was like the last guy to still use them or like, Vince sent me to the clubs.

Go to this club, go to this club.

But that was a common phrase back then to talk about a lot of the, whatever you want to say, buildings or whatever.

In those days, again, before the modern territory structure and everything was, you know,

laid out in the same fashion.

These small buildings were all controlled by different local promoters and they were called the clubs.

You know, that's my, you know, Newark is my club.

The promoters just for what, and it comes from boxing, I believe, from probably the late 1800s.

But yeah, that's my club, or I've got the clubs doing great business here in the Michigan area, or whatever.

It was the towns, it was the buildings.

And it was not so much the buildings, but the towns, because they would still say it's my club, even if they were in a different building in the same town.

So

that's the way that they did things.

And there were so many local promoters involved because that's the way you had to do it.

There was no television.

They weren't really buying radio for fucking Ypsilanti in 1936, right?

So posters, local paper, word of mouth, hustling, that's what they were doing.

We're going to come back to Flato in a minute.

But this is a telegram.

Brian, you remember from the Jim Londus book and also from several of the Hornbaker books, Jack Curley, we've talked about here on the program, was probably the major wrestling promoter of

the pioneer days up until his death in 1937.

Jack Curley was the guy that had done more with, he promoted the fucking

Jack Johnson fight, right?

I mean, he was into everything.

Yeah, he had Yankee Stadium, he had the garden, he had everything in the New York area.

And you go learn more about him, that fantastic book that John Langmead wrote, Valley Who.

Recommend that to anyone that cares about wrestling history.

That's the book.

And as a matter of fact, I blanked on that, but that is the one that I was referring.

But as we know, Jack Curley died, and he was the head of promoter of Madison Square Garden then in 1937.

And they did a Jack Curley memorial wrestling card.

for him in the garden, but that was the time where the garden was not doing too well.

But they apparently made an effort to try to revitalize things.

This is a telegram from September 2nd, 1937 to Jim Londo's care of Tom Pax at the Maryland Hotel in St.

Louis, Missouri.

Ed, remember last week when we talked about

the Johnston family associated with Madison Square Garden, boxing and wrestling.

They had the contract with the garden in some fashion where

everything related to something in the ring went through them, no matter what promoters or talent they were dealing with.

Well, this is from Bill Johnston, as I said to Londos, care of Tom Pax, who was the St.

Louis promoter.

We are opening Madison Square Garden September 15th.

Memorial for the late Jack Curley, stop,

can offer you $5,000 guarantee with privilege of 25% of net receipts to meet Steve Crusher

Casey,

finish bout, stop.

If agreeable, confirm acceptance.

And I mean, I don't see why that this would,

this is a legitimate telegram.

I don't see why this would be part of publicity.

But in those days, Londos got guarantees versus percentages.

They were trying to draw in the garden.

Brian, $5,000, again, from 1937 today

would be somewhere over $100,000.

But

he didn't take it

for whatever reason.

I've got from, again, ScottT.O.

CrowbarPress.com, the book, Wrestling in the Garden.

The September 15th, 1937, Jack Curley Memorial Show,

Steve Casey ended up beating Benny Feldman.

Dano O'Mahony did a 30-minute Broadway with Ed Don George.

Yvonne Robert beat Billy.

That was a big match.

That was a big match.

But no, no championship at that point.

Yvonne Robert beat Billy Bartushk, George Clark, Jim Wallace.

Jesse James drew Billy Rayburn.

I mean, these fucking names, right?

Steve Casey, O'Mahony, and George were the names,

but but Casey and Feldman in the main event, they drew 3,000 people.

So

at garden ticket prices of the time,

one would think

I said that I don't know that's a $15,000 house.

I'm trying to find some record of similar attendance with a dollar figure attached, but they weren't.

They weren't bandying those figures about at that time period.

They weren't doing well.

So point is,

they would have been out some money if he'd have taken the fucking offer.

But that's the kind of money that Landos used to command in those days to do a major event,

which is fucking insane.

Because now, but here's when you go back in the gardens, or in the garden, rather, to the 1920s,

they were doing

at least reporting gates of like $60,000 and $70,000

for the big match.

And here,

a $30,000, and this was the older, older garden.

So 12,000 people was a sellout.

But the average ticket prices in the 20s were decidedly higher than the 30s because of the Depression.

But Londos was still in the early 30s selling the place out.

And then, as a matter of fact, hold on, where's the the movie?

You know, the depression hit it, didn't kill the motion picture business.

No matter how bad things got, there were certain parts of entertainment that it really didn't hurt as bad as it should have, could have, would have.

Well, and the movies were already,

you know,

Nickelodeons.

That's where it started, a nickel.

The movies were 10 cents or whatever.

So it didn't affect them.

It actually boosted attendance because that was some way you could get some entertainment without, you know, spending a fortune.

But with sports tickets, there was a deflation

that happened that, you know, it took a while to recover from.

And

that's a that's when Londos and Ray Steele on June 30, June 1931, had done 30,000 people at Yankee Stadium and the house was $63,000.

Yeah.

So,

in, you know, again that was a fantastic crowd but the tickets were only a couple of dollars average whereas 10 years before it had been double that nevertheless he didn't make the

the the poor jack curly was not remembered by jim londes if you're a maintenance supervisor at a manufacturing facility and your machinery isn't working right granger knows you need to understand what's wrong as soon as possible so when a conveyor motor falters granger offers diagnostic tools like calibration kits and multimeters to help you identify and fix the problem.

With Granger, you can be confident you have everything you need to keep your facility running smoothly.

Call 1-800-GRANGER, clickgranger.com, or just stop by.

Granger are the ones who get it done.

But

there's more.

Ray Fabiani.

We talked about him.

He notable for being the longtime promoter in Philadelphia and was incredibly successful there.

But again, these guys in the 30s and 40s,

they would pick up and go from, you know, one major market to the other because they had so many connections, they could still

get talent and they would open up buildings or take over.

beleaguered territories or just, you know, whatever.

It was, there was no restraint on anybody at that time as long as they stayed in with

a clique of promoters and booking offices that could supply them with talent.

So,

but in Philadelphia, Ray Fabiani Sports, April 3rd, 1940, it was at 1607 Sansom Street, by the way, S-A-N-S-O-M.

He wrote to Jack Pfeffer at the Times Building in New York City,

Dear Jack, I've done a great job with the angel today.

He will tell you himself when he returns, and everything is going along very nicely.

Edecourt Pfeffer at the time was booking,

was it the no, was it the Swedish angel at that point in time, which was a rip-off of Maurice Tillet, the French angel.

Whichever angel, the ugly folks, the freaks, right?

is what he termed them.

But Fabiani says, but there is one thing that you must do do so that we will have no trouble, and that is to stop mailing things to newspapers around here.

Remember that the press here, as well as everywhere else,

resents you and your wrestlers due to the terrible statements you have made, and it has not been easy for me to overcome all this.

The story of St.

Louis, while it criticized the other angel, it was a terrible knock to wrestling and mailing it to them does not help anything.

Therefore, I'm warning you not to do it if our relations are to be cordial.

Best regards, sincerely yours, Ray Fabiani.

Pfeffer would get so pissed off

that if he had an interest, maybe he made the first angel and then the first angel left him, so he made another angel.

Whatever the fuck, we got to study this period to determine what's behind these letters.

But the point is, he got so fucking

bitter at these people that anytime they went into a wrestling area, he would send the newspapers articles claiming they weren't the real champion or they weren't the real angel or they were fake or whatever the fuck.

And the promoters that were using these guys would have to tell him, please, goddamn it, quit, right?

But Fabiani

did business with Pfeffer for years and years.

I think there's another letter maybe, in here.

And,

you know, but every once in a while, there had to be a stern wording.

But I thought that was incredible.

Please remember that the press here, as well as everywhere else, resents you and your wrestlers due to the terrible statements you have made.

Jack wasn't popular in Philadelphia.

Fabiani would later.

Anyway, Fabiani later ran against Kohler for a brief period of time in Chicago.

Yes.

And that was

what 1950 51 so that was like 10 years after that yeah

okay by the way it flatto his real name is isaac isaac t flato

i it just it sounds like fake yeah like some kind of fake gimmick name that they put in charge of a wrestling school at the territories in the 70s

but anyway all right

I said we were going to maybe rewrite some history here.

And I got to find all of my, where's all of my notes?

Because there are letters from IT Flato,

copies of the letters that Pfeffer's lawyer sent to various people,

including the Athletic Commission and the

producer of the television mobile unit for the National Broadcasting Company in New York.

And

I did a little looking up in other places also.

And

by the way, kids don't trust Wikipedia for everything.

It's there's

there's a there's a few factual miserors on there, but

remember, Brian, we talked several weeks ago about

the uh the history of television wrestling and how early it started.

And

oh, gosh, what's our fine friend's name over in the United Kingdom that does the incredible research?

And oh shit, because I'm old now, and his name's Adam, isn't it?

Or is it?

God damn, you know who you are, pal.

We love you.

But he had narrowed it down to in England, they did something in the late 30s in the experimental phase.

But there's a lot of, we've been talking about over the past few weeks.

And last week's program, especially, there was regular wrestling on television every night of the week from the local buildings in the New York area between 1947 and 1950 on every station that was practically on the air, right?

And when we talked about

our

friend Across the Pond's research,

the first television studio wrestling show had been on the WRBG Schenectady station that was an offshoot of the RCA Experimental Laboratories.

Remember, that was 1942.

Yeah.

Now, that's why Wikipedia has the first,

this is what they say: the first successful recurring wrestling program was Hollywood Wrestling on KTLA in 1947.

But that's not true because we know that at the same time period,

New York had the nightly shows

and Chicago

had wrestling on WBKB, which turned into WBBM, I believe, is Channel 2 today.

Hi, everybody, in Chicagoland.

They had that show in the summer of 1946.

The Dumont Network debut of wrestling from Chicago was July of 1948.

So

there's a lot of...

firsts involved there that have been known before and have been quoted in various places.

But

I got something here

that I think somebody ought to look into further.

Because this is a letter from IT Flateau

to Mr.

Burke Crotty.

I swear to God, these names.

Producer of the television mobile unit, National Broadcasting Company, Incorporated, RCA Building, Radio City, New York, New York.

And this is dated February 20th, 1940, right?

Dear Mr.

Krotty, after we discuss the subject of television at the meeting of the State Athletic Commission today,

and after the meeting, I also discuss the same with Mr.

Bill Johnston, promoter at the garden, family, Johnston family, and Mr.

Jack Pfeffer.

Mr.

Bill Johnston is ready to accept $100 for every boxing show televised during the next three months and or to the end of the indoor boxing season at this club.

So now they're talking about one of the small clubs, not talking about the garden itself, they're talking about one of the small clubs in the area.

And I believe we will

get that out of another letter, but nevertheless.

Mr.

Pfeffer is ready to accept the sum of $50 for every wrestling show televised during the same period.

This is the minimum amount which either will accept, and I have no objection to your discussing the matter with either of them and entering into any different contract which you're able to make with them.

Now that we have the approval of the Commission for the balance of the indoor season, they insist that the new contract become effective at once.

I do not know whether you intend to televise on Thursday and Saturday of this week.

And if you do, I suggest that you get in touch with the above-mentioned people at once and agree with them on the amount to be paid.

I've done everything possible to bring bring the commission to an understanding of television, and after many months of hard work, have got them to understand the situation my way.

It is now up to the National Broadcasting Company to do the rest.

And if you need my help, you may say him to the fullest.

Keep in mind, Thursday's a holiday.

Work quickly, sincerely yours.

This is February 1940, and

this has already been taking place.

And Pfeffer had written a note at the top, apparently to Flato, talk to Krotty

like a businessman, not a wrestler.

But

if this is February, and here there's some other stuff, but

are you salivating so far over what the fuck was going on here?

No, this is fascinating.

And I would just look some stuff up online, just trying to find more information.

They're apparently free to download from worldradiohistory.com the NBC transmitter, the employee magazine for NBC from 35 to 45.

So maybe a good idea to pound through those and just see what possibly could be mentioned.

I mean, but again, I'm getting ahead of things.

You're kind of just hitting us with something brand new.

Well, hold on.

Do they have tele, do they have television or just radio listings?

I think it's, I don't even know if it's listings.

It's an in-house NBC magazine dealing with all the different affiliates.

Oh, okay.

I see what she said.

I see what she's saying.

I'll send you this link.

I'll send you this link.

Okay.

Well, that was February 20.

The very next day, February 21, 1940, he writes to the Honorable John J.

Phelan, chairman of the New York State Athletic Commission, 155 Worth Street, New York City.

My dear general,

after the National Broadcasting Company informally agreed to pay for the the televising of boxing and wrestling shows at this club,

its representatives obtained the erroneous impression from your commission yesterday that they could continue to broadcast free of cost for a period of three months.

I know that the free days are over and informed them they must pay $50 for wrestling and $100 for boxing or they are out in the cold.

So far, they have accepted wrestling dates February 22, 1940 and February 29, 1940 at the above above rate.

If they don't pay as above set forth, television will be discontinued at this club.

Sincerely, I.T.

Flato.

Discontinued?

That means it's been continued for a while.

Yes.

Yeah.

And they've already agreed to the date of the day after he's writing this letter and the following week, whatever the 22nd, 29th were, whatever night of the week that was.

And the wrestling and boxing, and we're going to get into another letter here that may explain some of this, but

$50 for wrestling from 1940, we've established that would probably be about $1,200 for broadcast rights and

double for boxing because they were on a different pay schedule.

But now, here's the thing: I know a lot of people are saying, wait a minute, televising to who, for what, how, what's going on here?

Okay.

Apparently, television in New York, and folks, they've written books about this.

So it's not like I can just, I don't want to bore you, but try to give you a grip.

The Schenectady

RCA Experimental Studios from like 1928

kind of became the WRBG in Schenectady.

And there was another

offshoot of that

that became WNBT

in New York and is now WNBC.

And Brian since you've lived there, do they ever, they crow a lot that we're the oldest continuously broadcasting television station in the country?

I don't think so.

Or do they?

I don't think they do.

Yeah, I don't think they do.

That's NBC here in New York, Channel 4.

Well, WNBT was actually on the air irregularly, every once in a while, whatever the fuck, in 1936.

for like

100 high-level RCA executives that had sets in their house, and they had a boardroom where they

had TVs people could watch when they had meetings to show them what it looked like, right?

The actual television itself.

And regular commercial service was apparently scheduled for the 1939 World's Fair.

And then they were broadcasting to

several hundred because that's where at the World's Fair, they were trying to get people, hey, buy this new thing called television.

But they actually became

commercially licensed stations the same day,

WNBT in New York and WCBW that became the WCBS station in Chicago.

In July 1941, they were supposed to go on the air at the exact same time.

But the New York station fucked them on the deal and went on the air an hour ahead of time.

So they were still broadcasting

to nobody.

And the war, you know, fucked things up further.

And TV sets cost,

you know, what did we say when we did that piece a while back, like $20,000

for the average person if they wanted to have it in today's money.

But

they were working out how to do it and figuring shit out and actually broadcasting a signal to almost nobody.

But part of it was

wrestling was there from the start.

And then

in April 1940, and I don't need to read this whole goddamn thing, but he wrote the Honorable D.

Walker Ware at the Hotel Mayflower, 61st Street in Central Park West, New York City.

This is from Flato.

My dear commissioner, I received your letter of the 5th, and I have noted contents.

Perhaps the National Broadcasting Company did not comply with your request because they received pretty rough treatment between your commission and this office.

At a great expense, both to the National Broadcasting Company and this office, television was installed in my club along experimental lines.

Your commission was opposed to television, and General Phelan insisted for four months on my receiving $400 a night.

just as if he had anything to do with it at all.

And finally, when the showdown came before the commission on February 20, the commission was ready to give away my building for nothing to the National Broadcasting Company for a period of four months.

As the experimental stage had ended

and I'm solely in business to make money, I informed the National Broadcasting Company that unless they paid for every wrestling and boxing show, that they could not continue at Ridgewood Grove.

There it is.

For any time in the future.

Where did you say that was, Brian?

was that queens queens and uh yeah i have the results here

the results of you said it was february 22nd 1940 you found that already yeah i found it already there's a website

new york pro nypro wrestling.com

and uh you said it was the 22nd what was the other date

the 29th seven days later oh yeah so that would have been oh no 29th uh

oh again that that may not be listed here the 29th is uh white plains new York, but that could be just another town on the circuit.

The 22nd, Michelle Leone defeated Felix

Slovakowski.

Angelo Martinelli defeated Jack Brown.

Dave Levin drew with Ray Schwartz.

Maurice Boyer drew with Patrick Havanaugh.

Zim Zam Zum

defeated Juan Olaquival.

And Frederick von Schatt

I went to, it just says a time here, maybe a draw with Benny Rosen.

And that was apparently televised.

And

he said installed it in my club.

Is that the way he phrased it?

Well, yeah, hold on here.

Yeah, at a great expense to both NBC and this office, television was installed in my club along experimental lines.

Now, I.

See, again, nobody knew how to fucking talk about this stuff then.

So did it mean that was installed, they brought it in and, you know, left it there or they just brought the remote equipment in or whatever.

Did they wire the building?

Right.

Did they wire the building?

But he says as the experimental stage had ended

and

the period was, was it four months that they were trying to renew for?

That would have put them.

into late 1939, possibly, if they had started that far.

But nevertheless,

I informed the NBC that unless they paid for every wrestling and boxing show, they could not continue at Ridgewood Grove for any time in the future.

They paid for two wrestling shows.

So that would have been February 22nd and maybe 29th or whatever.

And I thereupon refused to have them continue further unless they paid the amount which I desired and which I informed the commission.

was a reasonable charge.

That was $50, right?

For the moment, I have abandoned television, although my building is the only one in the United States now ready to televise boxing and wrestling shows.

So

he's apparently got whatever facilities they needed at the time to do that.

So it sounds like you've uncovered the first regular TV,

maybe the first TV wrestling show in the United States, actually.

Right?

And

it sounds that way because

they're talking about the experimental nature and that okay we you know we took a fling on this but now i need you know about 50 or whatever

and that would have

that would have ended in late february 1940 so would they have gone on the air as as early as late 1939 for an experimental period

I mean, you know, again.

And again, no advertising.

Obviously, naturally, there was no commercial advertising on any of these points.

No, because nobody could really see it.

So you would be wasting money telling people, hey, here's what you can't see tonight that's going on.

And that's another thing is that they weren't even worried about it harming the gate at that point.

It was just like, you know, if you're going to fucking, you know, annoy me with this, give me $50 or the boxing people, give us $100.

You know, because

they didn't do anything for nothing.

They were willing to take the fling because they thought that somebody would, NBC, they're thinking the big radio company, but they got money,

even if television is fucking nothing.

So, and then the rest of this letter is about a guy that got suspended to blah, blah, blah.

But then he closes, I'm on very friendly terms with the National Broadcasting Company.

And any night you want tickets to investigate the situation of television, I'll be glad to be of service to you.

And this was April 6th, 1940, as I said.

I'm very friendly with these people that are refusing to give me $50.

So if you need me to make any corrections, let me know.

Wow.

You know, I said it last time.

There's a deep dive somewhere just about the history of wrestling TV in New York from, I would have said the late 40s, but now we can go well before then.

From 1940 to 19,

let's say 56.

Just what actually was airing, what was actually being aired live, what was being aired from the studio on the west side that later became the Sony Studios.

There's a whole lot of stuff we still don't have clarity on.

And remember, we did the segment on St.

Louis television.

I think they did some kind of experimental deal, and Longson was the first wrestler while Bill Longson on TV in St.

Louis.

And it was like 1946, I believe.

Yeah.

But this,

it predates everything.

And again, you know,

they weren't doing television to make money and it wasn't hurting their gait because, except for people seeing a bunch of those big cameras there,

it almost didn't exist in people's minds.

So it was just, it was, they were going along with something and

there weren't handhelds.

He didn't have any handhelds.

So no.

Giant mic, giant cameras.

It was as big as a refrigerator in those days, sitting up in the fucking cheap seats looking down at the ring.

And,

you know, for it, it was a non-entity, but the television networks were trying to figure out what they could televise and what might be popular in a way that they could present it well.

As we said, in those days, between the size of the screens and the

cameras, basketball, football, baseball, it was almost, it would be, you know, visual gibberish.

You couldn't see it.

You couldn't follow it.

But wrestling and boxing was right there.

But nevertheless, we will try to delve into a little bit of this

news and see what else we can find out.

But apparently there was a television program for a period of weeks, at least, on

television that nobody could see between 1939 and early 1940 in the New York area.

Yeah, now you got me wondering how many buildings, if any, were actually hardwired as opposed to.

I mean, well, he was writing a letter to the mobile operations group, I think you said.

Yes.

And see, that's the thing is that was probably at that point be the only

mobile operations unit anywhere.

In the world, yeah.

In the world, yeah.

Well, at least in the country.

Let's not get too grandiose.

Yeah, the guys at Movie Tone News are like, who the fuck is this guy?

Yeah.

This truck.

But that's the thing is that that was,

they probably had just figured out a way to name that thing.

Oh, they take shit out of our building and shoot it elsewhere.

We'll call it mobile.

So you know what another, it just made me think of it, thinking about some of the people who would have big broadcasting careers either locally or.

nationwide who began as wrestling commentators because wrestling aired and we need a commentator.

Russ Davis, go do it.

Yeah.

Who was the first wrestling commentator, including radio?

That's one of those ones we don't know, right?

No, I don't.

And

it would not even be clear with this

that we're talking about that they even did commentary or had an announcer.

No guarantees.

There's no guarantees of that.

And

that may be the reason there is an announcer.

People saw that.

You know, they might have said, well, yeah, we need somebody to tell them what the fuck's happening.

But Lance Russell had done wrestling on radio, but it was not this early.

He would have still only been a mere pup of like fucking 15 or 16 in 1940.

And then I don't know that they had ever had regularly scheduled wrestling broadcasts on radio, but we know big matches were

called or aired or somehow done.

So, but uh,

but yeah, yeah, so

that would be

if they had a goddamn basement that was discovered in Schenectady or whatever, where if they had a, could they, did they even do kinescope that early?

But some method of recording the experimental broadcast they did in the late 30s and early 40s, that would be cool as shit.

But I have a feeling we'll be waiting for a while.

You never know.

But Brian, they were trying to figure out new businesses.

They were trying to figure out new businesses.

It was a brand new business, producing television shows, selling advertising for television, selling televisions, all brand new.

It was a dream.

It was a dream of General David Sarnoff and the people who made the cathode ray tubes and all those type of things.

And

they didn't dream of being astronauts or they didn't dream of being.

the princess at a castle somewhere.

They dreamed of being television broadcasters.

And it took them years and years of hard work and schlogging.

Can you imagine, Brian, how easy it would have been at the dawn of television if they'd have had Shopify?

Can you imagine?

It would have been less schlogging, more

of that.

Well, that's right.

It would have been definitely less schlogging and more

cashing.

More sending cash to the bank.

Because if there had been Shopify, Brian, at the the dawn of TV in 1940,

then the WNBC wouldn't have had anything to worry about.

They could have just said, hey, Shopify, build us a beautiful website.

Hey, Shopify, enhance all of our product images and put it on the internet.

Hey, Shopify, write the product descriptions, generate discount codes.

Give us some easy-to-run email and social media campaigns.

Email everybody in the United States in 1940 and tell them that we're on the air.

and

then use your customer support when people call and say we don't know how to work this you call television and shopify ka ching

could they could have had everybody ready to make money in like three months that's because they're they're efficient and they know what they're doing brian why didn't they call shopify in 1940

I guess they weren't around then.

Yeah, I mean, if you was running the internet in 1940, I think if you had called someone and said, built me a website in 1940, they they may have committed you.

And they may have

back then.

I would want people to be committed to what I'm doing.

I'd want them to be 100% behind it.

And Shopify, folks, is going to be 100% behind you, giving you the old heave-ho, the old shove to the top every step of the way.

They're behind millions of businesses around the world.

10% of all the e-commerce in the United States.

comes to from Shopify, all the way from the big boys like Mattel to to the little bitty fellas like it flatto

and they'll lead you by the hand and sometimes shoot you into the ropes every step of the way so Brian I think it's it's only fair that people

the people out there that want to dream that want to retire as successfully as these old-time wrestling promoters turn the dreams into reality and money and get a $1 a month trial period.

They're right there.

That's it.

I got to get one of those.

see i'll just knock down a belly dancer and take her little finger clackers

there you see yeah mess with me there gladys you got a little slap sign up for your one dollar a month trial period and start selling today like an auctioneer at shopify.com slash jce

shopify.com slash jce

you'll be selling like you're going in the electric chair oh god please please.

Oh, God, no.

I don't think it'll be an action.

And you don't need to be an auctioneer either.

And of course, they power our online store, ArcadianVanguard.com, those great drive-through t-shirts powered by our friends at Shopify.

You can find us in the shop app.

They can do the same for you and your products.

Jim, one more time, in a professional manner, what is that wonderful promo code?

Oh, God, dear.

No, that's not it.

No.

You got to go right now.

No matter what you do, go to shopify.com/slash JCE.

Oh, you just got to.

All righty.

Well, in sticking with the subject of the financial world, Brian, we talked a couple of weeks ago about Jack Pfeffer's income tax returns and the odd deductions he took and the amount of them and also the amount of money that he made from booking wrestlers

all over the country to various promoters, right?

And

I think I mentioned it was in,

these were my handwritten notes.

In 1950, he made $10,000 off Buddy Rogers as his commission

for getting Rogers' book.

Now, Rogers was one of the biggest draws into business at the time,

but we don't know.

Because a lot of his records are handwritten and it just lines on a piece of paper with names and figures.

We don't know what deal he had with each individual guy.

And they varied by the end of it, and we'll have a segment sometime soon when I can really do some more note-taking on the Fargo's.

But there was a period of time toward the end of his career, Pfeffer's career,

in the early 60s, where he only had a few guys like Jackie and Don Fargo and some girls that he was booking, but he would get the same thing they got for a payoff.

So

if they each got $50, he got $50 from the promoter.

But in the days where he had all these guys and he was sending them to all these different major promoters,

he still

had a piece, but not that much.

So would you think,

Brian, is it reasonable to assume that Rogers here?

I have another payoff sheet with all the wrestlers that he had.

And my picture cut this off.

I don't know whether it's 1949 or 1948.

But that year he made $8,392.93 off of Buddy Rogers's bookings.

Would that have meant that he got 20%?

Rogers couldn't have made $83,000 in 1948.

But even at 20%, if it, what was

$40,000

in 1948 or 49.

What would that be in today's money?

According to the inflation calculator, $40,000 in 1949 would be $542,000,

give or take today.

So,

I mean, that's believable because of where Rogers was and what we're seeing about some of these other financial records.

But this has, Billy Darnell, who would become one of Rogers' favorite opponents in in that initial push,

in 1950, he got five grand off of Darnell's bookings.

This year, he only got $1,560.

So this was still forming because we're finding out more and more that Pfeffer

is the one that pushed Rogers to the capes and the posters and the robes and the whole nature boy, the whole gimmick aspect of Rogers.

Of course, he was responsible for the in-ring working,

but he, that was his golden goose for a long time.

And that's why later on, there was such bitterness.

But he listened to some of these other names.

I don't, I don't even know who a lot of them were.

He got $3,220 off somebody named Demon.

So he has some masked guy, right?

I guess.

But that would be, again, equivalent to like fucking

what's $3,200 from 1949.

$3,200 in 1949 would be approximately $43,000 and change today.

So somehow, of some guy named Demon, that's what he got for the year.

Frank Hickey is on here for $690.

I believe Levin.

Possibly Dave Levin, $1,077.

I'm pretty sure it would have been him.

He was one of the guys Pfeffer pushed as a champion.

That's right.

Sam.

Pfeffer created him.

Pfeffer created Dave Levin.

That's right.

And created

the path that he claimed the title from, right?

On those posters.

He said he was the Jamaican butcher boy, or not Jamaican, but Jamaica butcher boy.

He was from Jamaica, Queens, and they tried to make him the Jewish champion.

He wasn't Jewish.

He was a German kid

from Queens.

And Pfeffer gave him a name and gave him the career.

And now here, even the late 40s, Marshall, would that be Everett Marshall?

Was he still active?

Probably.

It almost has to be $2,250.

And then, I mean, there's a lot of names, Sandow, not sure

young Sandow, one of the, you know, those type of, go ahead.

Did you know that Pfeffer was booking Everett Marshall?

Well, you know, no, maybe Everett Marshall might not have known it.

Oh, Jack Pfeffer, who knows?

Here's Walter Podilak that would become the golden Superman, 200 bucks.

Tor Johnson,

of course, later to become famous for his role in Plan 9 from Outer Space, $255.

I mean, there's just a lot of names here.

Yvonne Robert,

$165.

Kowalski with a Y, I don't know, but $290.

What about Bwimbalevy?

Levy, $50.

Really?

For Levy.

It just says Levy.

It's got to be him.

But

was he injured and out with the year?

Did he break off with Pfeffer, or was that he was morbidly obese?

Was he ready to call it quits by 1948 or 49?

Yeah, I don't know.

But I mean, this whole

total

is,

goddamn, he's got two columns total.

So 38 is $44,500 he got from talent.

So what would that be from $49?

$44,000

from 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9, 2, 1, I did 44, 5 based on what you said.

That would be $603,000.

Yeah, and there's like 40 guys on this list.

So that

no wonder he was fucking crazy writing letters all the time.

Can you imagine trying to keep up with all of that in the days before?

modern communication, as they say.

No, based on the money he was making, if he didn't live in hotels his whole life, he had enough money to have like a beautiful house anywhere at that point in time.

Oh, well, listen to the expenses now.

I got his expenses for 1950.

Remember, I finally found this picture I got printed out from Hotchkiss

because

1950 is the year where he made like $60,000 plus in booking fees from talent and a promoter in Ohio, but he declared $26,000 in expenses.

$26,000 in 1950

is the same as him declaring fucking

$300,000 in expenses off of his income tax, right?

Railroad fares and transportation, $1,981.

Hotels, $1,624.

Office storage,

$345.

Where's that?

Yeah.

He was storing his meals while on road, $2,920.

Let's say

three grand.

He's writing off like $45,000 in food or whatever.

Taxi, $1,300.

Photos, cuts, and mats.

That's pictures and the printing process of the day.

$668.

Tips on railroads and hotels, $1,020.

That's $13,000 in tips.

Printing, addressing, and mailing, $285.

Stenographic and secretarial service, $1,500.

Telegrams, Western Union, $155.

Telephone, long distance, $2,276.

The only thing he spent more on than the phone was on food.

Postage, $1,404.

Luggage,

$352.

Dressing room, attendance, and help, $780.

Capes and tailoring,

$358.

Oh, bonus to athletes and help, $3,357.

Remember, he gave Rogers a $1,500 bonus.

And then entertaining, publicity, gifts, promotion, and public relations,

$5,853.

So

that was how he, but still,

he would have ended up, he's writing off everything because he has no home.

He lives in hotels.

He writes off all of his meals, all of his phone calls.

So he still came out $30 something thousand dollars ahead and paid tax on that.

Where'd all the rest of that money go?

And that's one year.

We're talking in today's money.

That's one year.

We're talking in today's money.

And in the 1950s, he made millions.

Anyway, you remember you saw queen of the ring that outstanding silver screen motion picture that i was involved in brian and the and and al haft was was played by

your friend and mine old martin cove that was in the karate fella the biter

the biter He's a very nice man.

I'm sure he apologized genuinely and meant it.

He just, he was hungry.

You know, you're sitting there signing autographs all day.

You get peckish.

But anyway, he played Al Haft.

I have a letter here to Jack Pfeffer from the real Al Haft.

Would you like to hear how the real Al Haft spoke?

Yeah.

On February 2nd, 1949.

Dear friend Jack, your letter to hand yesterday, so I'm getting a few lines off to you this afternoon.

Just talked to Sam Muchnik.

He tells me that Thez and Gorgeous had a big house in St.

Louis.

Looks like the fans want spectacular shows and showmen.

The old days of wrestling are out and looks like they will not return for a long time indeed.

Some things never change.

He continues, yes, I think you are right about selling Buddy as the nature boy.

We will do that all along the line as it sure looks like the public wants the old hunkus junkus.

Now, first, this

the hunkus junkus.

He says, who the hell?

But he censors it.

H dash dash dash l.

Are we not to give them what they want?

Buddy can get along on legitimate wrestling, but with the old hunkus junkus, we can no doubt do better as per the gorgeous line of action.

So he's talking about a gimmick.

Rogers or Pfeffer has pitched Al Haft, who would later on be

one of the most important people in Rogers' career.

Rogers was based there.

He booked there.

He had his crew of talent in and out of there.

And this is Pfeffer having just pitched Al Haft on giving Rogers the gimmick of the Nature Boy.

And Al Haft is still like, yeah, all this fucking modern fucking hunkus junkus.

But listen to this, because this was also

about when they were ready to reopen wrestling in Madison Square Garden in early 1949.

That's when we just talked about last week.

They opened with Gorgeous George and it bombed.

And then they came back at the end of the year with Raqqa and they sold out and turned him away.

Well, Haft is saying there's a lot of bad publicity coming out of New York.

Whenever they open the garden, it gets national publicity and on wrestling, it's not good.

So with the old hocus pocus going into the garden, we can look for a lot of vaudeville stories out of New York.

Every time that, again, there would try to be a revival in New York, the press would revive all of the gaga about it, and it would do bad, you know, it would spread and do bad business in some of the other markets.

And that was Pfeffer, though, that was one of the people that got it going in the press with that stuff.

Well, but that was 15 years before that.

But he continues, Joe Williams had a lousy story on the UP wire a couple of days back.

It gave wrestling a bad break.

Guess I'll have to find a big Eastern trust to give them a lot of hell.

This way, it takes the mind off of us out here in the sticks.

We'll make every effort to go along with Buddy around here, and I know we'll get the job done.

So,

again, Al Haft, an old-timer, but he's knocking gorgeous George, but he would end up making a fortune with nature boy Buddy Rogers.

all right

all right just have to shut that one off we are here we are in the future there's things happening we're happening

and we have lots of happenings to talk about there's things going on you don't know we tried in good faith to do a simple program

and Brian, apparently you're so unpopular with your local authorities there and the city of the borough of the town of the Ville of New Jersey that you live in that they sent.

I've got people in my walls, but you had people in your earth.

And they dug through your gas line and they have exposed poisonous gas to you and your entire family.

And you had to be evacuated

from your home.

Mid-show.

From your place of living.

Yeah.

In the middle of the show.

They started knocking on the door.

No,

I had told you before we started recording that there may be noise because I don't know who they are, but there are some guys out there,

the neighbor's house and my house, like they're digging up some kind of line by the street.

Did they have those

kerchiefs over their faces so you couldn't see who they were?

No, but they didn't have anything identifying them.

There was someone here the other day spray painting various areas we all notice them because if anyone comes to this neighborhood everyone notices and especially if they're spray painting the fucking

yeah they're doing graffiti on the ground i don't know if this is real or if this guy's just tagging the place so

these guys are doing their thing and i said to you i don't know if there's going to be noise there are guys out there working i don't know what they're doing and i hate to start complaining about noise now and then the next noise was the cop banging on my door saying, is anyone else here?

I said, yeah, my other family members here.

All right, can you all please go out the back and come around the side of the house?

I'm like, what's going on?

And then

I just see gases, gas spraying into the air.

Just you can see it?

You could see it.

It's like a mist.

It was like a mist of noxious fumes.

So we all got out of here.

It was fucking humid and hot.

Again, mid-show.

I grabbed my wallet and everything, thank God.

And we had to wait there.

They had to call in.

What did you think?

It was a diversion.

It's a heist movie.

And while you're out in the yard, they're going to come in and knock or knock your house over.

I'm prepared for anything.

And

yeah, eventually they let me come get my car while all of a sudden fire trucks from all sorts of places and PSENG, the electric company, were here.

It was Comcast, by the way.

Some fucking unit of contractors, because they don't work for Comcast.

Some unit of contractors that Comcast somehow found by the side of the railroad came out here and started just digging up shit and hit a fucking gas line

so yeah so they had the block off the street i was the only person far able to get my car the cop had to escort me to get my car and i'm thinking all right you know he wants to make sure i'm not going to you know burglarize myself or something and he says i have to escort you in case you pass out i was like oh

i better hurry up

what about him are you is it like accountability buddies you're responsible for him if he fucking teeters over you got to drag this giant cop out of of your yard maybe they have special oxygen training i really don't know but he seemed very confident in his abilities to survive

was he doing a special breathing technique oh it was it was a pain in the ass and then uh

you know later on all of a sudden there's all sorts of crews here and they clear us to go back in the house then they have to turn off the gas house by house on the entire street And then they fix whatever they have to fix.

And then they have to turn the gas on house by house.

And they have to check the water heaters house by house.

Biggest pain in the ass.

I was like, hey, man, who's going to take care of the fucking holes they were digging up in my fucking yard?

And he goes, well, I just got here.

It's dark.

I can't really see.

I don't know what.

I'm like, all right, they're already trying to wash their hands of this.

They're washing their hands of it.

Besides the fact he's there to fix a poisonous gas line, but he says it's dark and I can't see.

Yeah.

The fuck.

So I have to deal with this later on, but We're all alive.

We're all safe.

And the only noxious fumes will be our wrestling talk.

Well, I don't know about that.

You may have, are you feeling lightheaded?

You feeling dizzy?

It's awful tight in here, you know.

Oh, man.

Kevin Sullivan used to do that to me all the time.

If he knew I was on planes, if he'd be sitting next to me, I'd be trying to read my magazine and he'd tap me on the shoulders.

I'd look up, his forehead would be against mine.

Awful tight in here, isn't it?

Anyhow, we're glad that you're back in

your home there.

And hope, and do you have any of the the monitors where it it goes off if you got carbon monoxide or carbon tetrachloride or whatever the fuck it is yeah we have all sorts of to you know if anything was bad in the house we would and now we know the path to go to get out uh luckily this is a nice

nice fire drill here move slowly and in single file fashion go down come around the side go around find the push around around the pool next to the tennis court it was nice all the other neighbors came out everyone got evacuated wasn't just us they'd evacuate everyone oh so everybody got a chance to catch up in the middle of the street it was like a barbecue but there was no barbecue because if you lit a barbecue it would explode so yeah it was just great it was a wonderful like block party of sorts there were lights lots of lights

cold marshmallows nope couldn't do that that would have been a problem no cold marshmallows just stand there and eat marshmallows these contractors are sitting by the side of the road like You could tell they have no idea what's going on.

They know they caused this.

They know they did this.

They know they just have to sit there and wait for who knows what.

Well, now, what type of punitive repercussions are you going to try to inflict on these people?

Because I know you're a vindictive, evil, evil man.

And what

fashion have you found the corporate entity yet that you can sue and or my thing is if someone jumps in front of you and fucks up your agenda, there has to be some sort of uh you have to fix that.

Yes, there's got to be a difference.

I don't interfere with your day.

You don't appear with my day.

My day is very valuable.

Some kind of day of reckoning.

You can't just impede someone's forward progress, either literally or figuratively, in a free country.

And they're in the pursuit of their business.

They're in the pursuit of living their life.

And suddenly you throw a wrench into this, a spanner into the mix, as they say across the planet.

I was literally recording something that people all around the world will be listening to.

And some guys, I don't know where these bozos came from, cut a fucking gas line.

I don't even know what they're doing.

That's That's when I found out they were at Comcast.

I'm like, oh, are they with the energy company?

Like, what are they working on?

What are the chances that both you and I,

in the space of just a couple of months, two people out of a country of 350 million that are associated with in this fashion would have

a bunch of fucking morons digging trenches and ditches in their goddamn yard

just in the space of a short period of time?

Ridiculous.

I said, Ridiculous.

That's ridiculous.

The cop, too, the cop who walked me back to make sure I didn't pass out.

I said, Who do I sue?

And I just wanted to hear what he would say.

And he's like, Oh, I can't answer that.

I can't answer.

Obviously, you know, a lot of emotional distress and a lot of, you know, this ruins your work.

He's telling me everything I would think.

I'm like, Yeah, that's right.

Yeah.

I agree.

Yeah.

You know anybody?

No, that's.

Well, we know somebody.

We know somebody.

He's very

goddamn.

You know, does he have time to do anything else for anybody else?

He's doing all these things for us.

Once again, Stephen P.

New, 877-50 Steve.

Get even with StephennewlawOffice.com.

If you've been gassed,

if you're an innocent victim of poisonous gas in your own home, courtesy of the cable company, call Stephen P.

New.

Well,

before we go on with what we were trying to go on and on about, before we were interrupted, now there's

a new wrinkle in this

wide world of wrestling, Brian.

We have just been talking about earlier in the show, the very first

experimental television broadcasts of pro wrestling in the United States in 1940, to where the technology existed that they were doing it, but it just nobody could see it because they didn't have the screens.

85 years later,

every son of a bitch in this country has four or five screens.

And now they're going to be broadcasting the big wrestling shows

on

a technology that are a service that technically doesn't even exist yet.

The WWE is now

going to be on a service that ES, the premium live events, pay-per-views, as we say,

are not going to be on

the cock.

They're going to be on a service that ESPN is launching later on,

sometime this month.

And we're going to all have to subscribe to that to see these premium live events now.

I just said it's getting harder to watch wrestling, both because the shows are harder to watch, and because

how are you supposed to find all these fucking things?

This service does not even exist yet.

Am I exaggerating about this?

Well, this is a service ESPN will be launching.

And

like anyone who knows anything about launching new platforms and new formats of home entertainment,

wrestling fans are usually the people you can count on to be there.

And ESPN is banking on WWE, bringing people into their service for a very high price, $29.99 a month.

It's a lot more than Peacock.

It's a lot more than WWE Network.

A lot more than Netflix.

I think it's maybe all three of those combined, actually.

And I have a headline here from the Wall Street Journal.

Disney paying $1.6 billion for WWE rights.

ESPN unit will stream WrestleMania and other major offerings for five years.

Disney's ESPN and TKO Group's World Wrestling Entertainment have reached a more than $1.6 billion agreement that will give the sports media company exclusive rights to many of WWE's high-profile events.

The five-year deal, which will begin in 2026,

includes the U.S.

streaming rights to major events, including WrestleMania and SummerSlam.

ESPN will pay $325 million a year

for the rights, according to people familiar with the matter.

That is a significant increase from WWE's current current five-year deal with Peacock, which was valued at $900 million, according to people familiar with the pact.

The new agreement with ESPN follows a 10-year deal that WWE struck with Netflix last year for its weekly show Raw, valued at more than $5 billion.

Raw has become a solid performer for the streamer.

The events will be available on ESPN's new streaming service, which is slated to debut this fall at a price tag of $29.99 a month.

Under the deal, select coverage will be simulcast on ESPN's cable channels.

So why don't we stop there?

Yes, please do.

What would you like to break down about the fact that, again,

they're making billions and billions of dollars, but how many different things do we have to find and follow to see all this shit?

And

you said something wrong, Brian.

It's $29.99 a month, but I saw if you sign up for the whole year, it's only 300 bucks.

Oh,

what a great deal.

But

here's the thing, and I'll let you say what you was going to say, but people were mad at me when I was trying to order the pay-per-view, like God intended.

Pay-per-view television, big event, cable cable remote, easy to do, whatever the fuck.

You're paying $60 a month.

Well, actually, it's 50, I think, but you're paying $50 a month when you can stream it on this and that and the other thing.

And why are you wasting all that money?

You're just, you're just crazy.

Because normally

you could see all the goddamn wrestling TV shows.

on television,

which if even if you're paying for TBS, you've got a 400 fucking cable channels.

So how much are you really paying for TBS?

But then you buy one pay-per-view once a month and you get to fast forward and rewind and DVR it and do all the things and it's easy to watch and you don't have to fuck with the streaming.

And my time is valuable to me.

And if I can save an hour searching through the goddamn endless travelogues and advertisements and entrances, then it's worth the 50 bucks.

But now,

do we still need Netflix, Brian?

We're going to need Netflix for Raw.

Well, I still have Netflix for other things beyond wrestling, but yeah, Raw will be there for 10 years.

Well, see, that's the thing is, I'm starting, this is starting to be, I would not have Netflix if it wasn't Raw wasn't on it.

I would not have this goddamn thing that I'm apparently going to have if the pay-per-views weren't on it.

How many different things are we going to have to $20 and $30 ourselves to death on to see all this shit?

Well, see, that's the thing that to me is most interesting.

You know, WWE getting a big deal with someone trying to make it in streaming.

That's not a surprise.

That's where you're going to get the money nowadays.

But the idea that ESPN is launching the service at $30 a month, which is significantly more than just about every streaming service now or in the past.

Not that there aren't some that are above that, but by and large, nothing major.

The plan is wrestling fans have gotten used to streaming their pay-per-view events.

Pay-per-view is dead.

Not even just because like no one does it.

Like literally, InDemand is dead.

Some listeners sent over emails they got saying like, you know, the way to get pay-per-view now is go to ppv.com.

or go to this stream it i mean even the pay-per-view companies are saying stream it because in demand's dead But they've trained everyone to stream.

They've trained everyone for a range of payment between $9.99

and,

you know, let's say 20-something.

And now it's going to be more than that.

I don't know if people are going to want the other content.

According to this, ESPN will launch its new previously announced direct-to-consumer streaming service.

Thursday, August 21st.

So they just moved it up.

Bringing the full suite of ESPN networks and services within an enhanced ESPN app with new personalized features and functionality, direct to fans.

What the fuck does that mean?

This coincides with the start of college football and NFL seasons, U.S.

open tennis, international soccer, women's college soccer, volleyball, field hockey, and more.

No disc golf, it doesn't say.

There is not one goddamn thing of those things that I would watch, even if it was on free television.

And espn lost baseball with the start of the or they gave up on baseball however you want to put it with the start of the wnba playoffs pll playoffs and nba and nhl seasons as well as the ufc and wwe events just around the corner

so

again espn is banking on wrestling fans needing to see this content and being willing to pay 30 a month because you may not want to watch field hockey or volleyball or college athletics or any of these.

Is there curling?

Do they have curling?

I don't know.

The Pat McAfee show, they have that.

No, that's swerving.

I'm talking about curling.

So now, WWE has multi-year, multi-I shouldn't say multi-billions, even though one of them, I guess, was, but these multi-year deals with both NBC,

Netflix, because NBC owns USA Network, and that's where SmackDown is.

Netflix

and Disney with ESPN?

So that's ABC Networks, too.

Again,

they're trying to get every bit of it.

I mean, this is all.

I'm not saying we can't enjoy it and it won't be good things, but this is the biggest money grab in wrestling history.

And it'll probably continue for a good period of time.

But it's.

What about Peacock?

The poor old cock, the lonely spare cock at the wedding.

There's a bunch of stuff on there.

Is that transferring over to this ESPN thing?

Well, I see some reporting here from Brandon Thurston of WrestleNomics.

Some details that might not be elsewhere.

The New Deal does not include library rights.

So

the archive,

they won't have that.

Again, I don't know if that means all the archive or just not the pay-per-view archive.

Because if they're going to have all the pay-per-views, is it just here's the current batcher?

You know, typically you go to the, it used to be the network, now now Peacock, and it's like season WrestleMania, season seven, episode one,

WrestleMania, season eight, episode one.

I don't know how that's going to work, but they apparently do not have the catalog,

which is now something, another thing WWE could try to sell to someone.

And maybe it'll be Peacock.

Hey, you lose the pay-per-views, but we'll give you the catalog.

Who knows?

Okay.

And again, I hate the streaming television, but

even for people who like the streaming television, isn't that going to be a lot of time and effort and work and money to buy all of the streamings that would be needed to see all of the shit that they would have to spend time to figure out where it was and what it was on and when it was on and find it and watch it?

It's going to be a lot of work.

And they're going to use ESPN to boost this brand that Thurston has here.

ESPN will have pre- and post-premium live event shows.

So the post-game show, that's why they got rid of the media scrum right before Brock Lesnar comes back and everything.

They get rid of the media scrum, you know, which even their media scrums were kind of softball-ish, but every now and then a question got by.

Also,

Sports Center expected to be broadcast at some premium live event locations.

So, again, what that means is that they're going to use their cable channel to sell non-stop WWE pay-per-view events because they need people to buy those events and get their subscription.

It's going to be over-the-top obnoxious.

You remember when

softball coverage?

ESPN has always had softball coverage at WWE.

This is now, there is not going to be any coverage.

It's literally just going to be, you know, repeating their press releases live on the air.

No, but I'm old enough, Sonny, to remember when there was a time where ESPN was like, wrestling?

Why would we talk about wrestling?

And then

they ended up with Vern's show on on Tuesday afternoons or whatever.

And then all these years later, wrestling is the fucking linchpin of their organization.

It is a famous story in the ESPN oral history.

Like they had a meeting one day, and one of the executives says, and we have a chance to get this wrestling show and we can have it on.

We have a, whatever they're saying about it.

And they have this person and that person.

And they got Sergeant Slaughter.

And one of the executives, like, wait, they got Slaughter?

And everyone stopped and looked at him.

But yeah, ESPN for years had Vern Gagne's show, had Legends of World Class, had Global Wrestling Federation.

I think those are the big three that were on ESPN.

Here's the thing, the world-class shows they aired were like fucking three years old.

I was in Charlotte and been living there for a couple of years when I was on TV with the Midnight every afternoon.

It was just, they never understood how to run a wrestling show on a regular basis, brand new that people wanted to see.

But no prom, they could air those shows, but no

actual

healthy current modern promotion could get on it.

I was fascinated by those shows because it was like nothing I'd ever seen before, all the screaming fans.

And then I'm like, is that Rick Roode with a smaller perm?

And then that was the first time I saw Percy Pringle.

And then I'm like, are they in a barn?

Because I saw that sidewall.

I was like, what is this?

They look great.

But ESPN in the WWE business, big time.

This is 1.6

times an increase over the peacock deal, which again was $900 million.

Again, what are your thoughts on

WWE doing this on the price tag?

Do you think the price tag is too much?

Even though you're willing to pay $50 a month, have they trained their general audience that that's too much

monthly for wrestling pay-per-views?

I think you're going to naturally lose the least dedicated people

or the least motivated people, or however you want to describe it.

Well, here's another thing they want me to pay 30 bucks a month for when they've been getting it for less.

And that was my

original problem with the WWE network.

When they went from WrestleMania being a $50 pay-per-view to $9.99 a month, you get everything.

I said, well, they've just devalued everything

that anybody could do.

Because if you're used to getting big shows for a really cheap price and then anything substantial comes along, they get $5 a month may not be bad, but whoa.

But also, it's just so much to keep track of.

And especially the older viewers are already predisposed to not like this shit because it's phony compared to what they were used to.

And now they say that.

You know, the streaming audience is primarily younger, so they're going for younger people, but they're going to lose a lot of older people

in the process.

And a lot of the older people is the ones that have some money.

So

it's just, I think, and the price tags that they're getting,

it's just ridiculous amounts of money.

And I don't even know.

I don't even know why that anyone would think that anything is worth a billion dollars over five years, except a cure for cancer.

But otherwise, you know, bless their little pee-picking hearts for getting all this money.

But I'm glad that I am closer to the end of having to watch any of this stuff than I am the beginning, to paraphrase what they say sometimes these days.

My career on watching wrestling is a whole lot closer to the end than it is the start.

So I don't care what they do.

But it's some goddamn complicated, expensive shit anymore.

Just a trip up the road to Bristol.

Hopefully the Merritt Parkway is clear.

Get over there nice and easy.

That's right.

Some kind of Connecticut mafia.

That's right.

ESPN,

the worldwide leader in sexual harassment.

That's going to be a great partnership here.

Seriously, the most obnoxious, unbearable programming.

I hate ESPN's broadcasts.

I used to love them.

It's just gone.

That's the thing is, I have not watched anything related to an ESPN network or broadcast or anything in so many years.

I don't know what's even on it.

So I don't know what else they would have besides your brief description on this service.

I don't,

occasionally I will see something because we have the Netflix now.

If it's a documentary, I'll say, okay, it's right in front of me.

But I could certainly do without it.

I don't ever watch Peacock except for whatever they're doing with the WWE.

I don't know.

What's the other thing that somebody's on?

We got somehow.

We got something else.

AW is on Max or HBO.

Stacy got the HBO Max, but I don't,

I watch it on TBS the way that it's supposed to be done or TNT or whatever they're on.

So

who's don't have time to watch goddamn television?

Much less 18 million forms of television.

All right.

We wish them all well in their future endeavors, don't we, Brian?

Oh, I see here NickCon's announcing a new program for premium live events.

If you're willing to pay double what someone else paid, you can kick them out of their seat and take their seat.

It's the new pay double live like a king program from WWE.

Jesus.

Everything's a money grab.

And again, there may be stuff we really like, but it's over the top from the commercials in the middle of the shows, from the commercials on the mat,

the commercials on the tables.

This ESPN stuff is going to be, again, there's never going to be serious coverage.

Not like there has been.

But boy, we'll see what happens.

Lots of money in the wrestling business, as they say.

You know, how do these people, Brian, how do they sleep at night?

Probably with a pillow.

No, I'm thinking that that these people need propofol to sleep at night their consciences have got to be that guilty that they're just they're just swindling and grifting and reaching in people's pockets i don't know how they sleep at night they wouldn't even be able to get a good night's sleep because their guilty conscience if they were on a helix mattress that's how miserable these people are

But everybody else that doesn't have a guilty conscience, they can get a wonderful night's sleep on a helix sleep mattress.

Brian,

have you ever, for example, been laying there thinking, holy mackerel boy, the shit that I did today, somebody's going to find out about it.

I'm going to go to hell.

I should be ashamed of myself.

You probably get that feeling once or twice a week.

Only after we record.

Well, see, they are once or twice a week.

So what you need to do to wash that away from you.

is you need to get the helix sleep mattress because they, if you like, sleep on your your side or your back, whatever position, they got a mattress for you.

And if you sleep hot or cold at night, they got a mattress for you.

So, why shouldn't they have a mattress for you if you've got a guilty conscience?

The special guilty conscience helix sleep mattress, you lay down on that and instantly, it doesn't matter what you've done.

I understand South American dictators sleep like babies on this thing.

It's amazing.

So, go out and, as a matter of fact, commit some, if not crimes, at least sins against humanity.

And then go to helixleep.com and get one of these wonderful guilty conscience era mattresses and you will sleep the sleep of the angels.

But if you're just a regular person, they got stuff for you too.

Brian, of course, we've talked about him many times.

The helix mattresses, they've got all natural ingredients.

They don't have...

asbestos and sawdust and barbed wire in them like some of the other major mattress organizations.

I understand there's a big been a big run on broken glass amongst the indie wrestler mattress companies.

Again, we can't speak to what they do.

We can speak to what you can get from Helix, great mattresses, none of these items that you would find in an indie wrestling show.

Just great mattresses from Helix.

Yeah, you know, a lot of indie wrestlers, you know, when they end up flat of their backs and body casts, they switch to mattress manufacturing.

You don't want that.

Whether you got snoring or back pain or sleep apne or have trouble sleeping through the night or just sweating like a like a hooker in St.

Mark's Cathedral,

you can find something to help you at helixleep.com.

And right now, Brian, you know, there's a big holiday coming up.

Labor Day, that's a day that nobody works.

And you can get early access to the Labor Day sale.

That's what they're calling it right now.

The Labor Day sale early access, where there's 20% off sidewide, whatever mattress you want,

whatever kind, whatever shape, whatever.

Well, I don't really know they come in different colors, but you know what I mean.

They got different colored sheets.

You can get those, but Labor Day early access

and through August 14th, 20% off sidewide at helixleep.com slash JCE,

helixleep.com slash JCE.

It'll be delivered to your your door.

You pop it there onto your bed frame or other surface.

Some people like to put them in a closet.

I don't know why.

We don't ask questions.

I go along for a lot of the installations, Brian.

Did you know that

a lot of times when they bring the helix mattress?

No, that is absolutely not true.

Ladies and gentlemen, a professional delivery, a professional mattress, a wonderful experience watching it unfurl right in front of you.

Yes, but what is that?

That's a wonderful, the unfurling process is a wonderful thing to watch.

That's why I go along every once in a while.

And some people say, put it in the closet.

And I go, why would you want the mattress in the closet?

But then I see the unruly state of their children and I think, well, no wonder.

But anyway, great mattress.

As we were saying, a great mattress.

We love them here in my house.

We all have them.

You will love them too.

Helix sleep.

You made a massive stack of them and just put all your children against the wall and stacked the mattresses in front of them so you and Suzanne could go out for a night without having to get a babysitter one time, didn't you?

That isn't what we have ever done, ever, never.

And we don't suggest anyone else do it.

Use your mattresses for sleep.

And before this goes too much further off the rails, Jim, what's that promo code with that wonderful deal for the listeners?

Yes, that's 20% off site-wide through August 14th.

If you go to helixleep.com/slash JCE.

All right.

Well, this remains your show.

Oh, I forgot about that.

I was so

excited that we got finished with that

information.

We were going back

to some more written material

that we got from the Pfeffer files, and I had a couple of things that

tickled me from

letters from Willie Gilsenberg.

And

one of them them is a copy of a letter from Willie Gilsenberg to Vince McMahon Sr.

This ended up in Pfeffer's files because

he was given a copy

and

it starts with, dear, this is March 20th, 1960.

So this is the period of time, Brian, where Vince McMahon Sr.'s television program out of Washington has gotten another foothold in New New York, and he has been supplying talent to Madison Square Garden for

some time before that, maybe a year, year and a half, or whatever, since the last time Pfeffer was ousted, right?

But now there's a change, the machinations behind the scenes.

Pedro Martinez, who had bought into the Manhattan booking office, had pulled out.

He said he got screwed.

He went back to Buffalo.

McMahon had a booking agency supplying talent, but so did Colaquariani,

who was trying to still, because he was behind Raqqa, so he was still trying to be the force behind wrestling in the garden.

And then

Pfeffer came in again.

And that's where Pfeffer not only brought in Ricky Starr and brought back the Fargo's, but he brought in

the

amazing Zuma, the mighty Zuma, the little Raqqa rip-off that we've talked about.

That

the only time this guy ever drew money in his life was in Madison Square Garden, and he and Raqqa against each other because of the

interest in Raqqa and a guy doing Raqqa stuff, the gimmick clash.

They sold out three times.

One of them was, um,

hold on here.

One of them was 890 people

with a gate of 64 125

one of them was twenty one thousand nine hundred and fifty people with sixty four thousand sixty eighty dollars and again sixty four thousand dollars in nineteen sixty is the equivalent of almost seven hundred thousand dollars in today's money And this was when the garden was running sometimes more often than once a month.

But

so

right at this point with these offices jockeying for power,

Willie Gilsenberg

is still, he's a longtime confidant of Vince Sr., but also was

close to Pfeffer for years and years, right?

And they all did business.

So

Gilsenberg writes a letter to Vince McMahon Sr.

And he says, Dear Vince, the late George M.

Cohan is the author of the following: The theater is illusion, and once you destroy the illusion, you destroy the theater.

And apparently, what they had done is Pampiro Furpo

was booked into the territory, was booked into Willie Gilsenberg's Newark shows that

he promoted.

But on another town in the territory, he's writing to Vince to complain that Furpo had to do a job for Arnold Skoland.

Because listen to this, I write this, the above quote, because of the fact that Pampiro Furpo was placed right in the center of the ring to look up into the sun by Arnold Skoland in capital letters.

He says, it's really hard to believe this comes under the heading of an error.

Just how did this happen?

Could it be due to me saying over TV, if you think Bruno Samartino is strong, just watch FERPO here next Thursday night?

There certainly could have been another way to make up time.

Babe and I have really, that was his partner in promotion, Babe and I have really put some money into the business since October, plus an added amount of woes for me to carry due to Babe's illness.

Furpo, a new face who is sure to draw a satisfactory crowd to the Newark Armory on April 2nd, certainly wasn't deserving of this in advance of this type of promotion.

Perhaps I'm wrong, and everyone else associated correct, but I still must refer to the great and late George M.

Cohen's characterization of illusion.

Please, let's try and figure something for Thursday that will place Furpo in a similar category to Zuma prior to the little fellows' matches with Raqqa.

It can be done.

The little fellow?

Yes.

So basically, they said, he's saying, you brought this guy in here and you put him over everybody.

And he drew money with Raqqa, but we bring Furpo in.

I've got him in a big match at my town and you have him do a job to Arnold School and what is the matter with you people?

And that would have been Furpo's dream to work with Raqqa.

You know, it's interesting because we're talking 1960.

So we're talking before Vince Sr.

and Kohler really

get down and dirty together before that breaks apart.

This is the beginning of the period of time where Bruno becomes a draw.

Bruno gets blacklisted.

Yeah.

And then becomes a bigger draw in other places, and Vince Singer needs him post-Raqqa.

Was Skoland already considered office or was he office in 1960?

No.

And the way that it's phrased to make up time,

I'm thinking that there was somehow there was a substitution or somebody was running late, or they changed something up and say, oh, well, let's go, let's put the baby face over.

Ignoring the fact that at that point in time, the difference between Arnold Scholin, who was a,

and I loved Arnie when I knew him 35 years after this, but at the time,

he was doing the opening match in the garden.

If he was on the garden card, he was,

you know, he was just a preliminary guy.

He may have.

At that point, they may have, you know, started asking him to,

you know,

do some of the other towns or, or, you know, White Plains became his building long after that, but maybe he was starting to try to get an interest in promoting some spot shows or whatever, but I would doubt it even that early.

Because, just based on what he's saying here, again, trying to read between the lines, if Willie Gilsimer, was he actually on TV and said, hey, come out to Newark this week and see Furpo, he's just as strong as Bruno.

Yes.

And then they sent and then they sent Skolan to squash him?

No, they on another show,

on another show they had put in the area, they had put Furpo over

Skoland over Furpo.

And he's, but see, news traveled, it was in the same market.

And that's what he's, he's like, what the fuck?

We've got him in a big featured spot in Newark.

And you, on this other show, you put him in the ring with Skoland and put Skoland over.

They were very touchy about their town.

And again, it's an interesting insight into that relationship.

Willie Gilsenberg would be a partner in WWWF until he died in, what, 77?

Yeah, well, he was the president for figurehead president for years later.

But he was still the promoter.

I mean, he had all these towns in New Jersey.

You know, Vince Sr.

was a DC guy, not a New York guy.

And

if he wanted to control the garden, and he did.

He needed towns around the garden.

And Willie Gilsenberg was the key to getting New Jersey.

Yeah, Gilson.

Patterson, Newark.

I mean, he had every town in New Jersey up here.

And he went back with boxing and wrestling way before Vince Sr.

had even, you know, he went back to Jess McMahon.

He was the connection to Jess McMahon, actually, because of the boxing end.

So, at any rate, that was a letter.

But then, here is a letter from Willie Gilsenberg to Jack Pfeffer, which is

again in the same time, May 28th, 1960, where i believe at that point i'm looking at these results

feffer was about to get kicked out again i believe because the far the fargo's are there during this time even sunny but they would be leaving soon and zuma would be moved down oh i think it feffer was still there because the rebel mario galento was the rebel later on in 1960.

But nevertheless, the tensions

of all of these people

trying to swerve each other out of the way.

This is from Gilsenberg to Pfeffer.

Dear Jack, in marking Furpo's name in red pencil on the ad you sent me, one would think that I was working against a friend of mine.

I think it was Willie Gilsenberg.

He's speaking of himself in the third person.

I think it was Willie Gilsenberg who took Mr.

Furpo and put him on top in Newark Armory with Raqqa.

and a friend of mine, Jack Pfeffer, who refused to say a kind word for this same FERPO.

So again, Gilsenberg's loving Pampero Furpo, and he's not getting any support.

But Babe wrote me and told me that you were on a couple of times this past week to plug Furpo in the garden show.

This brings me back to Jack Pfeffer, speaking to Jack Pfeffer, who I now think, and I hope I'm wrong, is out to hurt our Newark promotions and also out to do the same to Vince McMahon because he brought Buddy Rogers into the territory.

So apparently a lot of this problem, Pfeffer by this time, Rogers had

years before cut loose from him, but Pfeffer never forgot it and hated Buddy Rogers.

So he gave the Fargoes kind of a tag team Buddy Rogers gimmick.

He was always trying to undermine Rogers wherever he went.

And so now Vince Sr.

has brought Rogers in.

He's starting to get over.

Pfeffer doesn't want to have anything to do with him.

Gilsenberg is the one that's been there

through all of these people, is trying to, you know, get along with everybody, right?

He's the one who's actually known Rogers the second longest or maybe even the longest next to Pfeffer because he was promoting New Jersey Towns when Buddy broke in.

Yeah, well, listen to what he says next.

I don't particularly care for Buddy Rodgers.

I must admit, however, he is a great spot performer, meaning high spots.

And as such, I'm interested in Rogers or any wrestler who can draw in big barns like the armories we promote in.

Jack, if you do a blessed thing wrong to Vince McMahon by way of colloquariani,

you will have to cross me off your list.

I don't care to repeat all the happenings before you got into the territory because there isn't a thing I can say that you do not know.

There were many roadblocks at that time, and if I were Vince, they would return before you could say Pampiro Furpo.

And that's simply because your feelings against Rogers are so tremendous that you fail to see that you are deliberately hurting fellows like Willie and Babe, him and his partner, also Vince and Phil Zacco with your picky une maneuverings.

With your watch.

Jack, I don't picky une maneuverings.

Small-time bullshit.

Jack, I don't think there ever was a friend you ever made in wrestling with the guts of a Willie Gilsenberg in your corner.

Why lose that kind of a pal?

Do you think I am envious of you being able to place four men on a garden show?

I'm very happy for you, and that's what my aim was for the past couple of years: to see that you can come into the territory and become a part of it.

I didn't think you would place yourself in a position of appearing as one who would bite the hand that feeds him.

Jack, all of your gloating wouldn't mean a thing if Buddy Rogers, Eddie Graham,

and this is the way it's written, and the two colored boys told Cola and Walter Johnston and Prince Charles to go and blank themselves.

Who knows that better than you?

So instead of gloating, I think you would be much wiser to be satisfied to go along without hurting others.

As for the top bout in the garden, my opinion is that it is a poor bout at this time.

The underneath is well loaded, but even that could be improved by pairing the colored boys as a team against either the Fargoes or Rogers and Graham.

But that's that's only my opinion.

I hope I'm wrong, and there's a good house in Madison Square Garden, if only for the reason that a good house is helpful to the business.

Warmest regards, Gilly.

Wow, that is fascinating.

Weird question.

Let's start with Prince Charles.

I mean, is he just referring to, you know, the current king?

Because he was a boy at that time, or is it

no?

Walter and Prince Charles, I think, is Walter and Charles Johnston, the

garden promoters, the Johnston family.

And their longest running

wrestling advisor had been Cole Aquariani because he had the key to Raqqa.

So he had to, and,

you know, at various points, he would be aligned with different people based on the way the wind was blowing.

What do you think of apparently Pfeffer not being a fan of Pampero Furpo?

It almost seems like he'd be right down

his alley, the exact kind of person that well, I don't know what the.

i'm going back here to hold on to look at the uh

oh apparently

when for when feffer would mark things in red pencil on ads or programs he got

that meant he was wanting whoever that he was sending that to to look at what they're doing to me they're double crossing me

So it may have been in some previous conversation

that, you know, I don't know that Pfeffer was pissed at FERPO.

Pfeffer was probably pissed that FERPO was on Gilsenberg's card at the same time as something else or whatever.

Did you ever hear anything about the relationship, if there was any, between Jackie Fargo and Buddy Rogers?

Like, if they ran into each other, what was that conversation like?

Well, here's the thing: at one point, Fargo was quoted when they asked him about him: How much did Buddy Rogers influence you?

Well, I never saw him,

but obviously, that was

the influence.

And

Jackie,

especially, I don't think Don,

Don just took the name of the gimmick like he took all the names of the gimmicks, but Jackie, they took the strut, but Jackie more consciously

was

a Buddy Rogers disciple in terms of even calling everybody Pally.

in a locker room or, you know, shit like that.

And not only the strut, but the hair and some of the robes and especially his work as a heel.

He was a big influence because he was an influence on,

you know, on all of the fucking boys of that generation, like Flair was and then Michaels and et cetera.

But I think of the Fargo's, Don,

he had the better body.

And he did the strut, but he didn't keep the blonde hair.

He didn't keep that gift throughout his life, Jackie did.

I think Jackie was more of a

southern version of

Nature Boy Buddy Rogers.

And especially with the babyface promo appeal that he had.

He didn't get a chance to do a lot of heel promos, Jackie, after

61 or 62, but

the genuineness of the, and, and a lot of the old Rogers tricks and high spots and,

you know, et cetera.

So he was definitely influenced.

Are you surprised Willie Gilsenberg put all of that into a letter in 1960 as a wrestling promoter?

Well, no, because that's what they did then when

they were writing to each other personally.

The letters are amazing.

And

you can kind of get an idea, but still, it would be a forensic

job of years to be able to put all of these files there at Notre Dame and all the letters together and connect all the dots.

It would be,

I don't know if it can ever be done to determine exactly who was on the ins and outs with who, at what time and why all through those decades.

Anywho,

here you want to close up with one about your favorite Pinky George.

I just mentioned him to you the other day.

That's right.

When I said we'll play guest the letter writer, you said, Well, it's not going to be somebody like Pinky George, right?

And no, no, no.

But this one, I'll tell you, is ahead of time.

Because you will remember from the NWA history

that Pinky George is the one who got everybody together in 1948.

And the original, what was it, six promoters or seven, they signed the NWA charter, right?

So technically, Pinky George started it.

And then...

He was the first president, right?

He was the first president.

And then after a few years, you know, Sam Muchnik in St.

Louis.

And

I know a lot of people are saying, who's Pinky George?

He was the

promoter in,

goddamn, what was his, help me, his main town.

Was he Kansas City at that time?

Okay, he was Kansas City at that time.

And Sam Muschnick was St.

Louis.

And

later on, obviously, Kansas City would change hands, but St.

Louis would remain with Sam Muschnick until he retired.

They were always different offices, but they had some of the same

owners, operators, bookers, et cetera,

throughout the years.

And now to be fair, Sam Muchnick

has been long lauded as, you know, like the last of the old-time fair promoters that paid the boys fairly and.

was level-headed and ran the wrestling dynasty of St.

Louis.

It was one of the strongest markets in North America.

His whole 40 years, he was in business, blah, blah, blah.

And let me just make a correction because you and I both had the same brain fart.

And now I see this.

I'm like, oh, yeah, of course.

He was the promoter in Des Moines.

Des Moines.

That's why I couldn't, goddamn, I wasn't going to say Kansas City, but you talked me into it.

But nevertheless, Des Moines, Iowa, Iowa and Kansas, two

centers of the heartland.

But anyway, so as much as people said good things about Sam Muchdick in a wrestling business, you're bound to make some enemies, right?

By the end of the 1950s, Pinky George had resigned from the National Wrestling Alliance and was involved in testifying or giving testimony at least and background in the antitrust suit that the government had against the National Wrestling Alliance.

So this

is a letter that Pinky George apparently

wrote, typed out, and sent

to all members of the alliance.

And in 1959, this is March 1959.

There were probably about 30, 35 or 40 of them, right, in the NWA at that period of time.

He had already fallen out with them by that point, too, right?

Yes.

A few years before that.

Yes.

And that's why he wrote to all the members of the alliance.

And at the top, it's written, Jack, I mailed you one at the Mel House in Columbus, Noel House, the hotel in Columbus.

Regards Pinky.

And the title of it is, How the National Wrestling Alliance Became the Muchnik and Company Alliance.

Gentlemen of the Alliance, in accepting my resignation from the NWA, Muchnick's letter closed with these famous lines.

When I go to bed every night, I do so in good conscience.

End of quote.

Okay, let's review his his conscience.

Before the trial here, the St.

Louis and Kansas City territories merged.

During the trial, Mr.

Simpson, one of Sam's partners, appeared as a voluntary witness against the Alliance and me.

As promoter in Topeka, Sonny Myers was a close associate of Sam's.

What a farce and sham.

During a three-day recess of the trial, and now this is because, remember, Sonny Myers

testified for for the government, did he not, as a voluntary witness?

I believe so.

And he was and still would remain a figure in Kansas Pro Wrestling and Midwest Pro Wrestling for a while and became a member of the office.

During a three-day recess of the trial, Mr.

Conscience called a meeting in St.

Louis.

with all of his St.

Louis and KC partners.

In this meeting, he said, I don't care about Pinky George.

It's the alliance I want to save.

Let him deny this.

What alliance was he saving?

The Muchnik and Company alliance.

It's ironic that Sam's Casey partners are taking over towns I used to book.

I bet Sam's conscience don't bother him one bit when he cuts up the booking money.

The Muchnick Alliance is now booking four midget wrestlers recently stolen from Burt Ruby.

Wow.

That's just, that's the goddamn greatest line I've ever heard in a letter.

I'm thinking, what did the fucking second story man break in at night and fucking put him in a bag?

Sam and his employee, Bobby Bruns, were getting into hot water, so they picked a front man to act as the midget booker.

One, Mr.

Craddock, who has long been associated with Gus Karras.

The fact remains that they're being booked throughout the Muchnik Alliance territories.

Ruby can sit in Detroit and be consoled by Sam's conscience.

So basically, he's mad because

they had, they would always, and Lord Littlebrook did this in the 80s, there was always one person in charge of booking the midgets, like there was one person in charge of booking the girls.

And apparently

they stole Burt Ruby's midgets.

And by the way, Gus Karris, that's Kansas City.

Yes, Gus Karris is Kansas City.

Because

I was going to say, well, I'm having a brain fart, and where was Gus?

But nevertheless, not long ago, Bruns, who likes to play Secretary of State for Sam, gave Orville Brown an ultimatum.

This monopoly is trying to throw Brown out, put him out of the business he built.

Again, how ironic.

The first four people who agreed on the original alliance were Stecker, Clayton, Brown, and myself.

It was Brown's insistence that brought Muchnick in.

Stecker and Clayton have passed away.

I resigned.

One more to go.

How soon?

It depends on Muchnick's conscience.

Sam's conscience fades very quickly.

Morris Siegel has been Sam's best booster.

Yet, Muchnick once had the gall to try and throw Siegel out.

Why?

Because Siegel, who was ill, failed to make a board of directors meeting.

In the lobby of the hotel, the conscience one was shouting about throwing Morris out until level-headed Mr.

A.B.

calmed him down.

Let him try to deny this.

Maybe a little speech and a few tears now are in order so all can be forgiven.

You all remember the humiliation his former partner Martin Thez used to face.

Oh, wow.

That's Lou Thez's dad.

Yes.

And when originally Sam Muschnik began his promotion in 1945,

Lou had the opposite office and his father Martin was the promoter and the public president.

And they ran opposition to each other for a few months or a few years, and then joined together, but didn't let the public know that the two wrestling clubs had joined.

And that way, they were still operating as two separate entities, and they would each do matches every other week.

So, for years there, the Keel Auditorium ran weekly,

drawing anywhere from 5,000, 6,000 people to sellouts.

every week, like nine months of the year, and they take off the summer.

But it was, you know, a rough go at first.

And what turned the tide was when Muchnik was able to get Buddy Rogers to come to work for him.

He got his first sellout.

He started doing big business and it brought the Thezes to the bargaining table.

And that's another reason.

And this was after Rogers had pissed Thes off in 1946 about Lewis.

So that was another reason that Thes

didn't care for Buddy.

But anyway, he says, you all remember the humiliation Martin Thez used to face, right in open meeting, mind you.

The old gentleman couldn't stomach anymore and got out, like all Sam's partners do.

Everyone knows why Lou Thes laid the load down and got out of St.

Louis.

Lou's letter from Australia gives you a light on Sam's conscience.

Longshan was left to face those little snipes.

Bill is a nice guy, but

I know it to be a fact that he gave Fred Kohler permission to recognize a U.S.

champion.

When he realized others didn't like the idea and that he exceeded his authority, he pulled the rug from under Kohler.

Why, in good conscience, didn't he admit it was his fault?

Wow.

Look at all the trouble that

could have been avoided.

When Fred Kohler made Vern Gagne the U.S.

champion on Chicago network television in the early 50s,

he was a serious

threat competition to the NWA world champion Lou Thes,

because of the television coverage he had, people started thinking that Gagne was the champion instead of the NWA champion, Thez.

And that's why Gagne only got a few shots and never after the early 50s.

And that's the start of heat between Chicago not being a full NWA member, et cetera, et cetera.

That's why he had to become a promoter himself to become world champion.

It was never going to happen in the NWA.

Yeah.

Even though you could argue, Lou Luthes, Vern Gagne was as deserving as

certainly as deserving as Dick Hutton.

Oh, good God.

See, that was the thing.

If

Hethes dropped it to Hutton because Hutton could really beat him in a shoot,

but the thing is, Gagne had been an NCAA champion, and that water was never really tested.

So

Gagne drew a lot more money as a pro than Dick Hutton ever did,

to say the least.

Anyway, continuing, what about the poor guy from from Kansas, from Kansas, from Carson City?

Sam gives him permission to hold a light, heavyweight tournament to decide the NWA champion.

He had previously given the privilege to Mr.

Ludaroff, but because Mr.

Luderoff was slow, Sam gave Mr.

Walker the go-ahead sign.

When Ludaroff called to his attention that he had been given that right, Sam did a double take.

So now the Carson City promoter who had his tournament and champion is without NWA recognition.

Sam's Territory, in partnership with Kansas City Territory and Canadian partners, who are safe from the U.S.

antitrust laws, now comprise an interlocking monopoly that has made the champion and championship their own personal property.

All championship matches are held in either Canada or St.

Louis.

Now, remember.

You know what?

That's not exactly wrong for that period of time.

Yes, Toronto was a huge market in the 50s, and the NWA champion was,

yeah.

Is this the most negative thing you've ever heard or seen about Sam Mushnick ever, like all at once?

Ever, ever.

This is amazing.

He says, who knows when and where these matches are made?

Did you know when the Hutton O'Connor match was made?

And remember, they'd given the belt to Whipper Watson.

With the presidency in Sam's hand and the power of the championship, he can whip anyone in line.

As a matter of fact, it's a blackjack over every member's head.

Many who are sick of the situation don't dare resign.

Wrestling is their business.

As long as the situation exists, I'm going to shout from the rooftops and try to clean it up.

Whether Sam wants to admit it or not, capitalized, it was I who was the father of the alliance.

As a matter of fact, it was also incorporated here in Iowa with my lawyer, my wife, and I as the incorporators.

The alliance was not intended only for the benefit of one man or a small group.

It was intended to be a cooperative for the benefit of the whole membership.

If I can't clean it up, I'm going to the Justice Department.

Someone has to.

I don't want to know what Sam wants out of life.

He's a promoter.

He gets a big NWA salary, a paid secretary, expenses for travel.

He used to give us a lump sum financial statement.

This he stopped last year.

Why should he?

He has the membership where he wants it, and he has the champion in his pocket.

I'd like to remind the president that all of us have made mistakes, all of us have said things we wish to take back.

All of us, sometime or another, have blown our tops, but we are not the president.

Our actions are unofficial.

His are official and are supposed to represent the alliance.

For his mistakes, we can all go before the Justice Department.

In closing, I would like to ask the president: How rich can you get with four little midgets?

Why don't you give them back?

Oh, my God.

What an ending.

Give them back.

Give Burt Ruby back his midgets.

Oh, my God.

This letter, you said it's 59.

So

when did Fred Colbert take over as NWA president?

Was it 60 or 61?

I don't know off the top of my head, but one or the other of those.

Right after this.

Right after this.

Wow.

Yeah.

And then, but then that fell by the wayside after a few years, and Mushnik was back in and

stayed there for about another 10 years.

Whatever happened to Mushnik's files.

I don't know if you know that.

I don't know what he had.

I don't know.

I don't remember Larry Mattisick saying anything from any of the interviews I heard with him over the years.

Did we have anything in the office?

I know that programs, obviously, and stuff, but what about the files?

Here's what, well, I mean, I don't know what type of files on financial reports, individual shows, how far back they went.

I don't know what they had there.

And I'm pretty sure that the partners,

Pat O'Connor didn't really care about preserving anything.

Neither did Bob Brown, Bob Geigel.

But the bound set of programs that Muchnik had done from his first show,

as an old newspaper man, he had, you know, he kept one copy of each program for each event.

And then after a few years, he would have them bound.

I have those

because they ended up up in Pat O'Connor's basement.

And when he died, Harry White from St.

Louis told his wife Julie, I know somebody'd want to buy those.

What Larry Matasic said that he was broken up that they didn't keep, they probably threw him away

was the they had because Muchnik was a sports writer with the newspapers before he started promoting, so he

treated it sports-like in a variety of ways.

They kept an information card on every wrestler and every show that they had done so they could pull for a TV commentary or for writing in the program.

This is the guy's win-loss record in St.

Louis.

Here in St.

Louis, Pat O'Connor beat this guy, drew this guy, lost it, whatever.

All the wrestlers, they had all the statistics on in card files.

And that apparently no longer exists.

Man, the idea Pinky Pinky George sent this to all the NWA members.

Well,

he did not intend to rejoin at that point, and he didn't.

But god damn it, I'll tell you what, it's, you know, it's one thing to, you know, mismanage the title or start a click and exclude some of the other promoters, but when you start stealing midgets from poor old Burt Ruby,

That's just too much.

You know, a lot of people talk about the chic and Dick the Bruiser in Detroit.

They don't really talk about Burt Ruby's midgets as much as they probably should.

They were the key to Detroit.

And I know we've thrown another name in, but Burt Ruby, before

the days of the Sheik in the 60s, and really before Jim Barnett took over there from what was it, late 50s through 64.

Burt Ruby, and actually still he persisted through the 70s, but he had been more of the owner of the territory, the headman.

But Burt Ruby was involved in promotion in Michigan, probably since, I would think, shortly after the death of Adam Weissmueller that we talked about earlier in the program.

So,

and he was the one, Burt Ruby, who broke the chic in

because the chic was from Michigan there, the area, Lansing.

Fascinating.

Anyway, has this been just fascinating as all fuck?

I have really enjoyed it.

We could probably do this another 10 hours so we should probably stop now so we don't go another 10 hours that's true at all and it you may not have liked it but we liked it more than talking about goddamn espn and their fictitious services well that was aew dynamite for uh

Give those midgets back, Tony Khan.

All right.

We're going to be back in a few days with the other program that we do, yours.

I can't remember what the name of it is now.

The drive-through, and then back here in a significant period of time with another experience next week.

And in parting,

give back those bidgets.

Bye bye, everybody.

Get the experience, get the experience of Jim Connet

of Jim Cornette

of Jim Connet.