BETTER SEX WITH DR JENN GUNSAULLUS, PH.D.

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Speaker 5 My guest guest today, Dr. Jennifer Gonzalo's PhD, is a sexologist, sociologist, relationship coach, author, and TEDx speaker.

Speaker 5 She's a radical force for self-expression and has spent the last 20 plus years tearing down social stigmas and shame around sexual expression and empowering women to fully embody their sexuality.

Speaker 5 Needless to say, she's right up my alley because this is exactly what I try to do on on this podcast.

Speaker 5 She's a celebrated author and the writer of From Madness to Mindful, Reinventing Sex for Women, a self-help guide designed to liberate women and help them reclaim passion and pleasure both in and out of the bedroom.

Speaker 5 I hope you guys enjoy this super fun and super important conversation with the fabulous Jennifer.

Speaker 5 And for once and for all, can we please normalize women talking about sex and wanting to have amazing, fulfilling sex lives?

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Speaker 6 Dr. Jen, welcome to Canon De Luz.
It's such a huge honor to have you here. I'm excited to be here.
I'm already a really big fan of your work. Thank you.
I was reading your book last night.

Speaker 6 And I was listening to your TED Talks.

Speaker 7 Oh, thank you.

Speaker 6 Like, that's one of my major bucket list goals. Like, I want to be there.
Right of the, it's pretty awesome. One of those stages.

Speaker 6 So, needless to say, you are a major, major authority in your area, which is sex. I feel like a child, because some like it's amazing.
Every time we say the word sex,

Speaker 6 we get censored, especially on social media.

Speaker 6 Right, I know, and folks that use S-E-G-G-S instead, yeah, we have to because, seriously, like, just the fact that my podcast is Carondolu's sex dating and relationships, I keep getting shadow banned, and I get messages from Instagram, like, take this down, take that down.

Speaker 6 So, let's start with that. Yeah, because I know it's a huge part of your work, and it's a huge part of my work.

Speaker 6 How do we dismystify talking about sex? Is it possible to make it like normal and mainstream as such an important part of our adult lives?

Speaker 7 Yeah, I know it's like we're like all walking contradictions in countries like ours that we know this is one of the most important things.

Speaker 7 We know it's the reason we're all here, pretty much, you know.

Speaker 7 And yet, and it's such an important thing, particularly, you know, for maintaining healthy relationships and experiencing pleasure and satisfaction and fulfillment and all of these things, yet we learn still, most of us learn at such a young age to still carry such shame and embarrassment.

Speaker 7 We have, you know, because I'm a sociologist by education, and so I'm always looking at, you know, what are the components? What are we being taught?

Speaker 7 And we're still being taught that sex is embarrassing, it's shameful, it's inappropriate to talk about,

Speaker 7 that our bodies are inappropriate, you know, comparing us to other countries and like some Scandinavian countries, for example, compared to the U.S., where here we equate bodies, naked bodies, and sex, and other places are like, no, we all have naked bodies.

Speaker 7 That's fine. There's nothing wrong with naked bodies.
It's not to be shamed, and it's not something dirty. But in the U.S., we combine it all together, and we learn that from a young age.

Speaker 7 And then it's like a deeply felt sense of something that's inappropriate, and dirty, and wrong, and embarrassing to talk about.

Speaker 6 That is so true, because I come from Brazil and France. Okay.

Speaker 6 And it's two cultures that are very open when it comes to talk about, like I said, talking about sex and our bodies and wearing sexy bikinis on the beach. It's totally fine.

Speaker 6 However, I had kind of the same background education as yours. Like my mom was like from an Italian background, very Catholic family, la la la la la.

Speaker 6 So from a very early age, I was like, you know, don't talk about it. Get married a virgin.
Obviously, that was the black sheep of my family because I didn't do any of it.

Speaker 6 But, and you talk about that as well. But how do we make it normal, especially for women, right? Because when guys talk about sex, like, yeah, good for you.

Speaker 6 But when we talk about sex, we are labeled all kinds of crazy shit, from perverts to whores to this and that and that and that.

Speaker 7 And I think, you know, so I mostly work with folks that are 18 and older.

Speaker 7 So, you know, sadly, by the time I get folks in or working with folks, it's already been ingrained in us, but we could still undo a lot of it.

Speaker 7 And I think it's reflecting on what are your deepest held beliefs around these topics and about yourself as a sexual being and where do you have fears and insecurities and shame and for all of us that's the best starting point we can do is to reflect on like what did I learn where did I learn it literally where do I feel it inside my body because we feel shame so deeply and then we want to hide out and all it does is it it perpetuates all of this and then we pass it in if we feel shame about something if someone triggers that in us then we shame them and then we pass that on to younger generations especially women So for me, it is older generations normalizing this for younger women and talking about it, talking openly about it.

Speaker 7 But that all starts with us owning our own shit, like looking at it, reflecting on it, feeling it, and having the courage to sit with the discomfort to identify what it is and then do something more responsible with it.

Speaker 6 Yeah, I know, I love it, and I completely agree with you. And I think that's a big part of my work with the podcast.
I really fight to make this conversation a hot topic, And I get a lot of backlash.

Speaker 6 Like, I've had people tell me, delete the word sex from the title. Why are you talking about it?

Speaker 6 I've had clients, because I own a PR marketing agency, I've had clients tell me, like, oh, I don't know if I can work with you because you talk about sex. But I'm not talking about anything wrong.

Speaker 6 On the contrary, so anybody out there listening, especially today I'm focusing on women because I know for so many women, they want to speak up, but they're, like you said, so ashamed.

Speaker 6 So how do you break this barrier?

Speaker 7 For, well, I mean, so many directions, but like, you know, what you're talking about, even like you said, people are giving you pushback for. Yeah.
Well, so I would like to say to any of them

Speaker 7 that are listening,

Speaker 7 just because you feel uncomfortable with this doesn't make it's wrong. And that to me is the starting point.

Speaker 7 And we all, like, if we, yeah, I mean, right, the number of times that I've been like, oh, somebody's like, oh, yeah, I'd love to work with you.

Speaker 7 Oh, yeah, no, we can't do any co-branding online because you get the, oh yeah it'll it'll it'll soil my image if it's attached to anything sex and i was like how are we still doing this in 2024 so

Speaker 7 um

Speaker 7 to me you know it's taking a stand for ourselves it's taking risks we we do right we lose things sometimes we lose contacts we lose we get pushback we we lose followers um but i also think it is yeah i do think it's this piece you're like i understand you're uncomfortable with this but just because you're uncomfortable doesn't make it wrong or shameful that might be something you want to look at or journal on tonight or talk to your therapist about tomorrow.

Speaker 6 And you know, I got to tell you, usually my backlash comes from men.

Speaker 6 I very, very rarely have a woman, sometimes I do, but very rarely have a woman say something to me, but usually it's men.

Speaker 7 And

Speaker 7 why are they saying it's inappropriate?

Speaker 6 I don't know. They don't tell me why, but they're like, oh, you know, maybe you should delete this word or you have some really X-rated episodes and you're talking openly about it.

Speaker 6 And do you feel comfortable? And I'm like, yes, I do because I feel it's my job as a communicator, as a journalist, and as a woman.

Speaker 7 No, you're literally doing a service.

Speaker 7 Yes. Yes.

Speaker 6 So I push back.

Speaker 6 And like you said, if I at this point, I'm like, you know what?

Speaker 6 If you don't want to do business with me, I probably don't want to do business with you because I want to do business with men that are proud of women speaking up about important issues.

Speaker 6 And you are a proof of it. I mean, you did TEDx talks.
It's an important important issue.

Speaker 7 Yes, yes.

Speaker 7 Yes. Yes, to everything.

Speaker 7 So, well, and it's interesting because I'm really thinking, I'm like, if I'm going to give advice to people in this position out there, I really will say turn it around on people.

Speaker 7 Acknowledge that they're uncomfortable and then say, why? Why is this making? And so often, especially if it's men, they're going to say, well, I'm not uncomfortable.

Speaker 7 You'd be like, oh, oh, that's interesting. You really seem uncomfortable.
You sound uncomfortable. What do you think is going on? Why are these topics so uncomfortable for you?

Speaker 7 I actually bet some of them are going to pause and reflect on that and give you some really interesting insights. So, and then maybe they might be like, oh, yeah, this is my issue.

Speaker 7 This is not your issue.

Speaker 6 Yeah, I love that. So, for women out there listening,

Speaker 6 if they are embarrassed when it comes to talking about sex, not just like in public, like you and me, because I know it's our job, but let's say with their partners, right?

Speaker 6 Because I'm sure you know better than anybody, there's so many couples out there where the woman, or the man as well, but the woman is so unhappy, unfulfilled sexually, sexually because she's so embarrassed to actually open her mouth and say look this is what i want this is what i like yeah so any tips like what would be a first step yeah the first step that comes to my mind is find out what are you most afraid of

Speaker 7 because that's like identify are you afraid of that you're going to get judged are you afraid that you're going to go to hell are you afraid that um that your your partner's going to get mad at you are you afraid that you're going to hurt their feelings or you're going to embarrass them?

Speaker 7 Have you tried this in the past and it didn't go well? Like really identify what it is and get clear on that.

Speaker 7 And like I said before, you know, I'm all about like feeling our emotions in us, the somatic aspect, because when we feel uncomfortable things, that's what we then avoid.

Speaker 7 We want to avoid whatever we're feeling.

Speaker 7 And so I encourage people to like move into that feeling, you know, move into the discomfort, embrace it, get clear on what you're most afraid of, even do some writing on it, and then start the conversation in that place and actually say to your partner, I don't mean to embarrass you here, or I don't mean to hurt your feelings here, or I'm hoping this doesn't make you mad, or I'm hoping this doesn't disappoint you.

Speaker 7 Whatever you're most afraid of, actually own it up front. They say, I'm really, I have a conversation I need to bring up.
This is something that matters to me.

Speaker 7 I'm afraid to bring it up because I don't want to do it wrong, and I don't want to hurt your feelings.

Speaker 7 Like, own all of that.

Speaker 6 Speak up.

Speaker 7 Yeah, and own, like, that's starting.

Speaker 7 People are like, I don't, I'm afraid, and so I don't know where to start i'm like start with the fear yeah own the fear own your insecurity and then say it to your partner and if you're in if you're with a partnership and somebody who cares about you if your partner comes to you and you'd be like i have something important to talk about i'm actually nervous to talk about this because i don't want to do it wrong and i don't i i'm i'm afraid you're going to judge me or think i'm weird or something you'd be like oh shit okay yeah okay give it to me like what's what's going on you disarm the person you also let them know i'm like hey this is a different conversation than we normally have and it's like um it's like a preemptive strike of sorts um and you kind of prepare them and then hopefully get them then to be more vulnerable because you were just vulnerable and then say hey

Speaker 7 you know I really like our sexy time

Speaker 7 and I was listening to this podcast

Speaker 7 and they were talking about this thing that I didn't know people did or this new vibrator to try and I thought it would be fun and we haven't tried anything like that in a long time and I love what we're doing but like you know we're all both in ever aging bodies let's spice it up yeah and like my body you know I'm aging and I don't orgasm like I used to so like can we try a new toy like it'd be fun so just be really like

Speaker 6 like kind and vulnerable in your approach I think that at least that's my opinion if if you're the right right partner Even if it's something they don't want to do, they're still going to be supportive and proud of you for the fact that you're speaking up.

Speaker 7 Ideally.

Speaker 7 The thing is, if they can see, and it really is in the tone of voice and the the words, because it's really easy to communicate the same general information, but make them feel defensive or attack them or

Speaker 7 bring it up at the really wrong time. And so, just be really mindful and intentional around it.

Speaker 6 And another suggestion that I give, tell me what you think about it.

Speaker 6 Because a lot of couples, you know, like let's say you're in bed and you're doing whatever you're doing, or like I said, you're not having an orgasm or you're not,

Speaker 6 your partner is not fulfilling you in whatever thing you're doing.

Speaker 6 They're embarrassed to say something right there and then. But my suggestion is don't try to talk about sex when you're having sex.

Speaker 6 Like maybe if you're having a romantic dinner or happy hour or something, like before

Speaker 6 like looking at the person's eyes. Yes.
Because if the person, like if your partner likes your idea, whatever you're talking about, it might even become foreplay.

Speaker 7 Ideally, yes. I remember one of the times, this was several years ago, I was saying this to a woman who was probably in her late 50s.

Speaker 7 And she's like, well, so, you know, how do I bring up these conversations with my husband I was like well it's probably might not be best in the moment but like you know the next morning over breakfast she's like you want me to talk about sex over breakfast I was like yeah yeah

Speaker 7 over your coffee and yeah your bagel I was like yes go for it she was so horrified at that thought but I do think it's easier when we are because we are so vulnerable in sex already it can be easier to want to put our defenses up.

Speaker 7 So honestly, I think, you know, a really good time is like when you're starting to doze off a little bit. People's defenses are down.
They can be a little more cuddly. You'd be like, hey.

Speaker 6 Or maybe they use that excuse the next morning. Oh, I was kind of sleeping.
I don't remember what you said.

Speaker 7 I totally remember that when I was younger, you're like falling asleep and saying to him like a boyfriend. And I'm like, I love you.
And we haven't said yet to each other.

Speaker 7 And I was like, he didn't hear me. He's sleeping.
Yeah, hopefully he didn't. I know.

Speaker 7 I was like, I love you.

Speaker 6 Yeah, my approach is like, I think during a romantic dinner, romantic happy hour, that's the time that I would pick.

Speaker 7 I think so too. And some people, I could see they'd be afraid that someone could overhear their conversation.
So make sure it's in a more private place where you feel relaxed and comfortable.

Speaker 7 And then people are like, Really, really? You're bringing up anal sex for the first time? We got people right here listening. So, you know, be mindful in that way.

Speaker 7 But yeah, when you feel connected, when you feel bonded, and then and then bring it up in that really like vulnerable way.

Speaker 6 Yeah, you also mentioned something that I think is so important. You used the word fear.
And I know so many people are afraid of speaking up.

Speaker 6 I was in a miserable marriage for 14 years because my husband was very conservative and he was very abusive

Speaker 6 and at the time I didn't notice right he was very controlling so I couldn't speak up.

Speaker 6 I had the shittiest shittiest almost non-existent sex life for 14 years if you guys can believe that and it took me all that long to gather the courage and get out of the marriage and start my life over.

Speaker 6 And I am a firm believer that you're like you said the first time if you try to speak up and you're afraid it's very difficult but once you start speaking up

Speaker 6 it is so empowering because you realize it gives you strength and it gives you control of your life yeah a sense of agency like oh i can enact positive and then you're always gonna do it so i think the key is like if you're if you are strong enough to say you know what i'm gonna speak up the first time yeah after that it gets easier and easier and easier yeah and if you something that can help you get the courage to do it the first time like generally what we're most afraid of is like what we're going to be feeling in that moment.

Speaker 7 And so practice it ahead of time.

Speaker 7 Like actually sit, spend five minutes, think about what you're going to say and how you're going to say you're going to feel all of the things as if you're actually in it.

Speaker 7 Your brain doesn't know the difference. So you're going to feel it and then breathe through it.
And you're like, okay, I can do this.

Speaker 7 I've had in the past when I was working with clients when they had to like break up with somebody and they're like, oh my God, he's going to start crying. It's going to be horrible.

Speaker 7 So I would have her like practice it ahead of time on her own.

Speaker 7 And then she's like, okay, yeah, he might start crying and that's okay, and that sucks for him, but like, I don't have to back down, right?

Speaker 7 And I know I'm doing the right thing for me, um, and I can keep moving forward, he's not going to change my mind.

Speaker 7 And so, actually, do I mean, as silly as sort of, you know, quote-unquote role-playing is, it really is a practice for our emotions and our practice then to stay present in the moment.

Speaker 6 I love that.

Speaker 6 I think it's a great idea. Practice where you're going to say first, but say it.
Yeah, yeah, and then speak it up.

Speaker 7 And then, when it feels like, yeah, when it feels like not as scary, then go and speak it it up.

Speaker 6 Now, you talk about something, and I know I'm a little bit different than most people, but I want your opinion.

Speaker 6 It's even on your website, I think, how to get or feel sexy again in your late 40s or your 50s. Now,

Speaker 6 maybe

Speaker 6 because of my marriage, right, I didn't feel sexy. I thought, oh, I think that's what happens when you're married for a long time.
You're not supposed to have good sex anymore.

Speaker 6 You're not supposed to have sex anymore. I guess this is all normal.
Like, I totally discarded myself. I took myself out of the game.

Speaker 6 And once I got done with the marriage and I started my life over, I was like, wait a minute. I don't think so.
I love to have great sex with my partner.

Speaker 6 We deserve to have great fulfilling sex lives and all that good stuff. So for me, I'm just saying, me, Kat, my experience, the more I age, the better it gets.

Speaker 6 Because I speak up, I know what I want in a partner, I know what I don't want, and I'm never, I know I'm never going to accept to have a relationship with such shitty sex like I did in my marriage.

Speaker 6 So when I hear women and men, also, by the way, this is really important. Let's talk about that for a minute.
Because I have guy friends in their 50s.

Speaker 6 And they're like, oh, I don't have the stamina anymore. Oh, I don't really care about it anymore.
And girls, like, oh, I'm never going to have good sex. I'm like, what do you mean?

Speaker 6 You should be having the best sex of your life.

Speaker 7 Are they in, are they single or are they in long-term relationships? Both.

Speaker 6 both. I hear that all the time.
I get messages from people all over the world because of the podcast. Yeah.
And they're literally saying single people and people in relationships.

Speaker 6 Oh, I'm too old for this. Oh, I'm like 47.
Oh, no, my prime is gone. Oh, I've already done it.
And I'm like, what? No. Your life should be starting.
It should get better every year.

Speaker 7 Yes. And it changes because our bodies really go through change.
Like, I'm 51, so I'm in the midst of perimenopause right now and crazy hormone shifts and such.

Speaker 7 And my orgasms changed, and arousal has changed. And these are very real things.
And I talk to my partner about it like all the time because I was like, I'm not going to suffer with this alone.

Speaker 7 And he's seeing, if he's seeing shifts in me, I'm like, no, we're a team in this together. Like, and I want him to know what my body's doing.
I want him to care about it.

Speaker 7 I want to talk about this so we can keep keeping it alive and fresh and fun, even despite very real changes. When he's super stressed with work, his sex drive is definitely down.

Speaker 7 So I'm like, but we need to work as a team with this.

Speaker 7 as most men right if they're like their stress level is super high yeah it's harder for them to to be yeah super excited about having sex i want to speak also because you were like saying like a 47 year old person is like well it's done for my life and i'm like there's such like there's such beautiful research on folks on older couples like in their 80s who have been very intentional and the only reason that their intimacy is so good is because they learned however many decades earlier to actually have these uncomfortable conversations and to keep talking about it.

Speaker 7 And that in and of itself is intimacy.

Speaker 7 You know, everything I talk about, like sex is part of intimacy, but also emotional connection, mental connection, being vulnerable, being raw, creating that safe space for your partner.

Speaker 7 That is all like the core of that is what will create lasting sexual intimacy with your partner. Even if...

Speaker 7 Nobody's getting an erection and there's no penetration.

Speaker 6 Because there are a lot of other things that can be done.

Speaker 7 There's There's so much. There's so many ways to get pleasure with our bodies together.
So part of it is just not being as goal oriented and thinking outside the box.

Speaker 7 And if you're, if you're if you're giving up at a much younger age, please know it actually can get better. It'll look different.
It might feel different.

Speaker 7 But fundamentally, you know, at the end of our lives, people don't regret that they didn't, you know, work more or make more money.

Speaker 7 They regret that they didn't have the courage to be more vulnerable and to have a depth of emotional connections with people closest to them. Like, that's what really matters to us as humans.

Speaker 7 And sex is an important part of that. And, but how sex looks can change over time, and that's okay.

Speaker 6 It's such an important part of it, right? And it breaks my heart that it's so

Speaker 6 such a stigma. Like you said, this day and age, I think it's one of the most natural antidepressants.
It gives you energy, all that good stuff, right?

Speaker 6 I'm not even a doctor, but I'm a huge advocate for women and men, everybody, having happy, fulfilling sex lives.

Speaker 6 But it's unbelievable how people see it, like you said, we're saying at the beginning, it's something dirty and wrong.

Speaker 7 And right, when you start with that foundation and then you hit a roadblock, and then you hit a roadblock that maybe you try to address and it doesn't work, then it's just like, I get why people just want to put a big wall up and be like, no, I'm fine without it.

Speaker 6 No, I don't need it.

Speaker 7 I guess this is

Speaker 7 because they're like,

Speaker 7 because it's still so taboo in our country, it's hard to know where to find good resources and what is a path forward because you've got to pull back physical pieces and medical pieces and emotional pieces and relational pieces and like do that hard digging.

Speaker 7 I don't know. I can't think of anybody though that has done that type of hard work and hasn't been so appreciative that they had the courage to do it.

Speaker 6 Oh my god, I know. So, okay, somebody out there is going to listen.

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Speaker 6 you know they come up with a million excuses yeah so what would be an easy first step to change this game Actually, I'm going to start with the question I said before, like, again, what are you most afraid of?

Speaker 7 Are you afraid of being shamed by somebody? Do you feel shamed for yourself? Are you afraid of being judged? Are you afraid of disappointing someone? You're afraid of disappointing yourself.

Speaker 7 You're afraid of not feeling like a man. Like, what is it? Because we have to get to what is the fundamental belief system

Speaker 7 that the narrative that you have probably inherited from around you that has become your own though and has become your truth.

Speaker 7 And when we realize, like, we all write these stories, they feel like our truth, they don't have to be. We absolutely can write new sexual and intimacy stories for ourselves.

Speaker 7 So that, but the starting point is like, what are you most afraid of? What are you insecure about? What's blocking you?

Speaker 7 And once people identify that and like actually feel it and they're like, oh yeah, no, that feels horrible. Like,

Speaker 7 yeah, no wonder I don't want to talk about this and avoid it. But like, that isn't in and of itself starts building a sense of agency.
Like, oh, maybe I can do something.

Speaker 7 Oh, so, you know, if I'm working with a client like this, I was like, well, what friend can you talk to and maybe talk about? And then realize, oh my gosh, like, like we have something in common here.

Speaker 7 And we're just, we're looking.

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Speaker 6 And for women, many times it comes with the body shaming, right? Oh, yeah. It breaks my heart because I'm all about empowering women and none of us is perfect.

Speaker 6 And I think having great sex has nothing to do with the perfect body, otherwise, only supermodels will have great sex.

Speaker 7 And I've heard that they don't have great sex because they're insecure about other bodies.

Speaker 6 So, when I get a message, I even have girlfriends that are really beautiful, and I'm not kidding. I hear this all the time.
Oh, but I'm so embarrassed the first time I'm with a new guy.

Speaker 6 Oh my god, I gotta lose 10 pounds. I gotta do this.
I'm like, are you kidding?

Speaker 6 I don't think when the guy likes you and you are in bed with a guy and he takes your clothes off and he has a heart on, pardon my French, I don't think he's going to think, oh yeah,

Speaker 6 she should lose five, ten pounds. They're enjoying the whole package, the whole experience.

Speaker 7 And the thing is, and we have been taught by our society to judge ourselves, to fear judgment by other, like at this very, very, you know, I keep pointing to my chest at this very fundamental, like self-worth.

Speaker 7 Like we feel that in our chest and our solar plexus, we feel our self-worth and our lack of self-worth and the fear of judgment in that way and so we carry that so strong around our bodies but the funny thing is consistently when i've when i've talked to men i'm like what makes for the best sexual encounter with a woman they're like uh when she's not self-conscious and when she's like passionate and just losing herself in the moment yeah and so like literally what we've been taught to fear around our bodies and judgment interferes with what we think folks are judging us for our bodies, but like, no, they're actually judging us for being insecure

Speaker 7 and not having passion. And I get that's a difficult shift to make, but just know that for real.
That is consistently what I hear.

Speaker 7 They want somebody who's into it, they want somebody who's passionate and into it, and like enjoying themselves and enjoying getting pleasure and giving pleasure.

Speaker 6 Yeah, and I think for me, that's why I always say I think everything starts with self-love, right?

Speaker 6 Because if you love yourself, you look at yourself in the mirror, like, you know what, I adore every little bit and piece of me.

Speaker 6 That's the, no, we all, there's parts that we hate, like, oh my God, look at the cellulite, oh my God, look at that, look at that. But as a whole, you got to love yourself.
Yeah.

Speaker 7 So what I like to encourage, because I know sometimes with affirmations, especially for like, you know, when I've worked with women over the years, and I want to tell them, be like, oh, yeah, do the affirmation every day and like this mantra.

Speaker 7 Like, I, you know, I love myself. All parts of myself are beautiful.
And then I was like, and then I look at them as I'm saying it.

Speaker 7 I was like, oh, yeah, you totally have that little voice in your head that's saying, bullshit. You know?

Speaker 6 No, but you got to believe.

Speaker 7 So what I think.

Speaker 6 You have to believe.

Speaker 7 Well, so what I think is most helpful, and I think this actually overrides the bullshit responses our brain, is to tell you, have a mantra that says, I'm on the journey to believing I'm a beautiful woman.

Speaker 7 I'm on the journey to believing I'm worthy. And every time I've made that shift with folks, they're like, oh.
Yeah, no, I can't argue with that. Like I am.

Speaker 7 I was like, you're here and maybe you want to be here and maybe we'll only get you here. But you know what? You're on the journey.
And so I realized that I think that

Speaker 7 like the continuum versus the binary seems to help people and it overrides their,

Speaker 7 you know, their brain and their the belief systems fighting them on what they're trying to move towards I I I'm sure but I personally think everything at least for me like when I meet a guy

Speaker 6 in bed or out of bed if they are like you said insecure or nervous about who they are to me That's a total turn off I know a million times more than like the physical beauty I like secure people.

Speaker 6 I like people that I notice they have this energy like I love myself, I love my work, I love my life.

Speaker 6 That's what usually I'm attracted to. And I think, like you were saying, most guys are the same.
When they go on a date with a girl, it's not so much the perfection like so many women think, right?

Speaker 6 It's more like if you exude that energy that, you know, I like me, I like my game. Yeah.

Speaker 7 And that doesn't mean, especially for men, like confidence doesn't mean that you just plow your way through something, assuming that you know what this other person wants or needs.

Speaker 7 Like confidence is actually having the courage to ask, to be like, So, you want me to do this? You're like, I would love to do this. How do you feel about that? Yeah, is this working for you?

Speaker 7 So, you can still inquire and be a team in what you're creating there and not make assumptions and still be incredibly confident.

Speaker 6 Not to mention, I know a lot of people are shy when it comes to talking in bed, speaking in bed. I love it.
I don't like to have silent sex.

Speaker 7 I don't mean to. It's like chattering in the body.
It drives me crazy.

Speaker 6 I had an ex-boyfriend. The sex was okay.
It was good. I'm not going to say it was bad.
It was good. It wasn't the best.
But he was silent the entire time.

Speaker 6 Like, even when he's about to come, even when he came, I only knew he was coming because his breathing would change.

Speaker 6 And then finally, after we were together for many months, he started letting go.

Speaker 6 And then he told me, because he was saying he was married for so long, and the wife was so conservative. He even opened up to me in bed, like she wouldn't even do a doggy style.

Speaker 6 He was like, Oh, one time I asked her, in 25 years of marriage, I cannot imagine that. It was kind of like mine.

Speaker 6 25 years of marriage, one time he told her, like, can we do it like doggy style? And she threw a fit.

Speaker 6 So it was hard for him to even, like, you know, say, I'm comic or anything.

Speaker 6 Right. And I was so bored because I love talking.
I love hearing dirty stuff. I like seeing.

Speaker 7 So you know that it's working too, that you're like, you're all having fun.

Speaker 7 Yes.

Speaker 6 And I like to talk and I like to hear the guy saying to me what he wants to do and all that good stuff.

Speaker 7 Yeah. It's like, oh my God.
It spices things. Yeah, amazingly.
Yes.

Speaker 6 It spices things up, right? So I think that's a good tip right there and there. Speak up, people.
Yes.

Speaker 7 And again, like anything else, like, why are you afraid of it? And like, he's like,

Speaker 6 so much. But why do you think people are afraid?

Speaker 7 Well, he learned to be afraid, right? He was in a relationship where when he did try to speak up, he absolutely freaked out.

Speaker 7 So like, that's just smart that he learned to stop doing it was like me like my marriage

Speaker 6 the sex was really really really really boring really boring like think like uh a blow job and a little missionary and that's it yeah so the maybe one or once or twice in 15 years that i would try to say something like i was a whore oh my god he's such a fucking whore you know i can't believe seriously i would be he would call me names yeah so yeah i was like okay i'm gonna shut up.

Speaker 7 Yeah. Like,

Speaker 7 oh, yeah. That's

Speaker 6 weird.

Speaker 6 But hopefully, we're talking to people that are with supportive partners.

Speaker 7 Yeah, ideally.

Speaker 7 I do think, I mean, I get people stay in long-term relationships and marriages for a lot of reasons. And sometimes they choose things that they want to compromise on and sacrifice.

Speaker 7 And like sexual communication

Speaker 7 is often one of those because otherwise you've got a nice house and you've got kids and you do your vacations and you've got got your friends together.

Speaker 7 And so, but I do think, you know, when folks generally, you know,

Speaker 7 have the courage to have a conversation or go to a counselor or therapist or coach or, or like, hey, I think we need to separate because this isn't working. Like,

Speaker 7 doing something. You got to shake it up somehow because it's not going to change on its own.

Speaker 6 Yes, I agree. And I know, because like I said, I'm a living example.
It takes so much ball, so much courage to either speak up or get out of it. Say, you know,

Speaker 6 but once you do it's so empowering yes once you know what you want yeah and you you feel like comfortable telling your partner all of it and you know you're not gonna settle for a shitty relationship or shitty sex and your life is different yes

Speaker 7 and that's a lot of it i i actually i was just talking to a friend and colleague really recently and she just got out of a four-year relationship and she said she kind of she ended it she grieved it after a week and then was like i could tell by the way she was saying saying it.

Speaker 7 I think she got a sense of like, what was I doing? You know, because then once you're out of it, and then you're like, what was I doing? Exactly.

Speaker 6 Like, that's, that was not the, that's not what I want.

Speaker 7 And we need space sometimes to be able to do that. And then realize, oh my God, yes, I, yes.

Speaker 6 It's tough. Let's talk about masturbation for a minute because we're talking about sex with the partner.

Speaker 6 But if you're single or even if you are with a partner, let's talk to the single people out there, such as myself. I don't like doing casual sex.
I've done it. I've tried a bunch of times.

Speaker 6 It's not for me. It's not fulfilling.
I'm a major sapiosexual, like you were saying in the beginning.

Speaker 7 Oh my God, you're a bad person.

Speaker 6 I need that connection big time. That's the only thing that turns me on.
So I'm like, okay, I don't want casual sex. So when I'm in between relationships,

Speaker 6 I mean, I'm a huge advocate for masturbation. I love it.
I think it's so important. And same thing, it breaks my heart when I see what taboo it is.
We cannot even talk about it on social media.

Speaker 7 I mean, that is way more taboo in general than sex. Right.

Speaker 7 In terms of how people feel about it and react to it.

Speaker 6 They feel more embarrassed.

Speaker 6 I've had girlfriends that confessed to me that they never even used the vibrator. They're like, oh my God, why do you think that is? And again, how do we break the stigma?

Speaker 7 Oh, having conversations like this, first of all. So good job.

Speaker 6 She high-five.

Speaker 6 We almost found it.

Speaker 7 We fist bumped. We fist bumped.
Fist bumped.

Speaker 7 Oh, gosh.

Speaker 7 I mean, you know, like I said, I'll go back to being a sociologist for folks that

Speaker 7 are embarrassed of masturbating, feel like they shouldn't do it, feel like it's inappropriate.

Speaker 7 Or, like, I know years ago, I talked to somebody that they would masturbate, and then after they were done, they would feel so embarrassed and they just like shove their vibrator under their bed.

Speaker 7 And then I was like, oh, I hope you clean that thing at some point. Give me a little dust bunnies on it.

Speaker 7 But again, it's looking at, you know, sociologically looking at,

Speaker 7 we're not born with this shame around this. Like,

Speaker 7 we clearly have been taught it. And so, and internalize these messages that we literally feel them as if they're our truth.
Like, this story becomes our truth. So, where did you learn them?

Speaker 7 Who taught it to you? And that shining a bright light on it helps you realize every time I do a process like this with folks, they're like, oh, yeah, that's totally where it came from.

Speaker 7 And that's someone else's bullshit. That was society's shame.
That was that politician's bullshit. That was this religious leader's

Speaker 7 own view on things. That's some old outdated religion.
That was my mom passing on her fears. That was my dad being insecure.
Like, you can see it's everyone else's stuff.

Speaker 7 And often they're actually trying to protect you or they're trying to do the best by you, but they got bad education and they carry a lot of negative emotions and beliefs around it.

Speaker 7 And they've passed it on. So I really do think of like looking at it as a story that you've inherited from others or that others have imposed on you and forced on you.

Speaker 7 And then really like, I don't want this to be my story anymore. And like really start thinking like, what's possible? What would you, like, how, what type of sexual person do you want to be?

Speaker 7 What type of pleasure do you want to experience? How do you want to speak up about these things? And then bit by bit, start practicing it. Start talking to people about it.

Speaker 7 Start seeking out information and learning. And this is like anything, like anything.

Speaker 7 You know, I had, you know, one of my things I like to give couples, and if one person really wants to talk about sex and the other person wants to avoid conversations, I make them have a Sunday night conversation at like eight o'clock for like 20 minutes.

Speaker 7 Every week they have to have it. And I remember talking to a client the one time and I was like, and she was the one that did not want the conversation.

Speaker 7 And it was after a month, four weeks of doing it. And I was like, how's your Sunday night sex check-in? And she's like, oh, I still don't like it,

Speaker 7 but I don't dread it as much as I used to. And that's it.
And that's, I mean, it is building resilience. We are building comfort with discomfort.

Speaker 7 And we do that by stepping out of our comfort zones a little bit at a time and a little bit at a time and practicing new ways of speaking and acting till it starts to become more normal for us.

Speaker 6 Yeah, and I, because for guys,

Speaker 6 it's so normal, right? I think every guy in the world masturbates.

Speaker 7 They just

Speaker 7 were raised in very religious households, and they have heavy shame and embarrassment around it.

Speaker 6 A lot of men, yeah. But they still do it.

Speaker 7 Most of them do.

Speaker 6 They go occasionally, but I think for women, maybe because we usually need the help of the vibrator, not every woman can make themselves come with their fingers. And it's so much easier.

Speaker 6 The vibrator, a lot of them are embarrassed, like, oh my God, I'm going to get a vibrator.

Speaker 7 And we're not touching ourselves every day like boys are with their penises.

Speaker 6 Right, but you should. I think you should touch your body.
You should know your body. Absolutely.

Speaker 6 I think if you know how to give yourself pleasure, it's going to be so much more fun when you are with your partner.

Speaker 7 Yes. Right.

Speaker 6 And there is no excuse because nowadays you can buy a vibrator online. You don't have to go to the store.

Speaker 7 Yeah. Yeah.
And you can, yeah,

Speaker 7 start with cheap ones. Try it out.
See what vibration you like, like the buzzy or the thuddy, and start trying them out. And then you can integrate that in into your interactions with a partner.

Speaker 7 I love that.

Speaker 6 I absolutely love that. And I get that question from a lot of men, believe it or not.
They're like, oh, I would, because girls would love to play with their toys in bed,

Speaker 6 but the guys are too embarrassed to ask because the guys would like that too. And very few men are confident enough to say, hey, bring your toys to bed.
Let's have fun.

Speaker 6 I've actually had guys say, oh, is she going to compare the vibrator with my penis?

Speaker 6 Have you heard that one?

Speaker 7 Yes, still. And it's crazy because that was older generations would say that'd be like, well, you're trying to replace me.
You don't need my penis then.

Speaker 7 And I'm like, buddy, you're missing the point here. Like, you're working as a team together to enhance pleasure.
So, yeah. So I do, right?

Speaker 7 Toys can be very intimidating to men because they're like, wait, I thought that was my job.

Speaker 6 And I was like, no, it's so cheap.

Speaker 7 Learn how to use the toys.

Speaker 6 Yeah, but it's so childish. I don't think anybody's going to compare the penis with the toys.
Two completely different things, guys. You know, we're not trying to replace your penis.

Speaker 6 And the thing is, vibrators,

Speaker 7 at least 80% of the time, we're using them on our clits anyway. Like, that's the thing.
You're not, like, rubbing a dick up on your clit in that way for as long as you need to come.

Speaker 7 So, it's not a comparison.

Speaker 6 That's a, and it's a fun conversation, and I think it's a fantasy that most most couples would like to do, like to try out, right?

Speaker 7 You mean like masturbating in front of each other?

Speaker 6 Yeah, masturbating in front of each other and playing with toys in front of each other.

Speaker 7 Yeah, yes.

Speaker 7 I don't know if I'd say most couples, only because I work with couples like across a broad range of backgrounds and wealth levels and ages and religions and such.

Speaker 7 But I think it's probably common that at least one person in a couple has some curiosity about it. But what's, you know what, I love,

Speaker 7 what is it?

Speaker 7 Mojo Upgrade. Do you know that website?

Speaker 7 And I'm sure there's other ones now, right? Where folks can go out there and they can, with their partners, they can go on separate like phones or laptops.

Speaker 7 They can answer all of these sexual interest questions and then it emails them, but it only emails the ones that you have in common. And you overlap.
So if you're

Speaker 7 like, I don't want my partner to know I'm into golden showers, but they're only going to find out if they're into golden showers.

Speaker 7 And then you're like, son of a bitch, we're both in the golden showers.

Speaker 6 What is it called?

Speaker 7 Mojo upgrade.

Speaker 6 Mojo upgrade. That's fine.

Speaker 7 Yeah, we'll have to double check. I'm pretty sure that's the website.

Speaker 6 Okay, we'll double check. If it's not, I will put an addendum to this episode.
Perfect. But that's a great idea.

Speaker 7 Yes. And then that's, and then it's been a while.
It was a while ago. I probably at least five years ago that I had filled it out with a previous partner.

Speaker 7 And I remember going through it and I was like, someone, bitch, I've been in this field for like almost 30 years and I don't even know what all these things are.

Speaker 7 So I think you can take like a light version or a heavy version of it.

Speaker 7 It can be a bit daunting, but super interesting.

Speaker 6 Yeah, that's a great idea. I love that.
Never heard of it. But next time in a relationship, I'll definitely bring that up.

Speaker 7 Yeah, that's awesome.

Speaker 6 Oh my God, before we run out of time, because this is also a dating show, I want to ask your opinion, because this is a question I've been getting tons and tons and tons lately.

Speaker 6 And I don't know if it's because of the dating app, the dating culture changed so much, right? Because the dating apps have just gives everyone so much availability out there.

Speaker 6 Nowadays, you have a lot of men. We're talking about grown-up men in their 40s, in their 50s.
We're not talking about like 20-year-olds. We're talking about grown-ass men.

Speaker 6 They will go to the dating app, like they say, they meet you, okay? And then they're like, oh, I like you, I want to be in a relationship, blah, blah, blah. They take you on like so many dates,

Speaker 6 wine and dining, all this bullshit. But what they really, really want is to

Speaker 6 get you to have sex with them.

Speaker 6 And then once finally, because a lot of women write, oh, I go on five, six, seven, eight dates, I really like this guy. Finally,

Speaker 6 like me,

Speaker 6 after a certain point, I want to know if I have chemistry with that guy.

Speaker 6 I'm not the team, like, oh, wait six months to have sex. Believe it or not, there's a bunch of matchmakers that come on this show and they're like, oh, don't have sex before you're engaged.

Speaker 6 Don't have sex before six months. I'm like, what?

Speaker 7 Wait, I can't, the number

Speaker 7 side me.

Speaker 7 In the past, anytime I work with clients and they're generally because they've come from very Christian backgrounds, folks that wait until they have sex to get married, and they're not like 19, but they're like late 20s or later they almost always have some kind of sexual dysfunction or they have very low desire like they have so like you need to know this stuff earlier on if sex matters to you yeah okay so back to the question so you want to guess what point you want to find out if you have chemistry with that person yes so they have sex and the guy disappears

Speaker 6 and then after eight dates yes some girls say after five dates some girls say after six dates some girls whatever number of dates even if it's two dates there are so many men out there.

Speaker 6 Like this, I don't know, is this like the Peter Penn syndrome? Is this like, oh, it's just a conquest?

Speaker 6 What is going on with this dude?

Speaker 7 I mean, that's literally what it sounds like they're doing. I mean, unless there was something, but do they like just ghost and don't write anymore? Yeah.

Speaker 7 It happens.

Speaker 6 I get, it happens to my girlfriends. It has happened to me once.
Oh, my God.

Speaker 6 I get messages. I'm not kidding.
I get messages from people all over the world saying that.

Speaker 6 Women do that too, but of course men do that much.

Speaker 7 I've only ever heard of that like after, you know, one date, two dates, or three dates, but not anything that was more sustained. And so it seems like you're both building into this thing together.

Speaker 7 You're digging each other. They're spending money.
They're spending time.

Speaker 7 I actually have not. That's

Speaker 7 sucked. Like it hurts.

Speaker 6 Like it hurts my life.

Speaker 7 Exactly. Because that's got to, then you're like, am I crazy? Yeah.

Speaker 6 I I think, like, okay, you're a douche, Auvis Lier player. Why would you do that to me?

Speaker 7 And it literally just seems like

Speaker 7 a game. It really does feel like a power game and that it is all building up that anticipation.
Because I'm wondering if some of these men, they actually like it to drag out because

Speaker 7 they are playing the game. They're love bombing the woman.

Speaker 7 They're building her up. They're probably genuinely enjoying the time, but it is all building up to this excitement of them like eventually conquering them or winning.

Speaker 7 And then I wonder if afterwards there's just this like drop in dopamine and there's like this crash, and then they're like, Yeah, and I'm done here, but that is such an asshole thing to do because this is another human being in front of you who you've spent time getting to know and shared emotions and vulnerabilities with.

Speaker 7 And then you treat them that way like that is never okay.

Speaker 6 I completely agree. It's such a douchey, horrible thing to do, right? Yes.
But I don't know. Like, I'm not kidding.
I get so many messages from girls asking me why are men doing that? I said,

Speaker 6 I think, yeah, it's because a lot of men at these ages, they are, you know, becoming this insecure, immature a-holes again because of this so much availability of women on the women.

Speaker 7 But it's weird to me. I could see if you're having sex on the first or second date, but to prolong it for so long.

Speaker 7 Like, that's the thing that doesn't make sense to me. Like, there's a lot of emotional and financial investment and time in that.

Speaker 6 Like, who has time for all of that?

Speaker 7 Like, just go find somebody and have sex for the night. Like, what? And maybe they like sex with more of an emotional connection, but only once.
I don't know. It's really interesting.

Speaker 7 I'm going to let it crazy. Yeah, it's very, it's very upsetting.
Yeah, it's very upsetting.

Speaker 6 Guys, stop doing that.

Speaker 7 Yeah, okay.

Speaker 7 If you're out there and you're one of these guys who does that,

Speaker 7 please grow up.

Speaker 7 Yes. But at least send a message.
If you don't want to see it or anybody, at least don't ghost. Yeah.

Speaker 7 Like, you can always choose when you don't want to date anybody anymore, but have some respect for the fellow human in front of you and some compassion for how they feel and how it's literally crazy making when you do shit like that.

Speaker 6 I love that compassion. I think, yeah, we should respect each other, right?

Speaker 7 At least.

Speaker 7 You don't have to keep dating the person. You don't have to like the person.
Maybe the sex sucked. Like, who knows?

Speaker 7 But it is a fellow human being in front of you that has needs and desires and struggles and suffers just like you. So, like, just have some common humanity.

Speaker 6 I love that. Before I let you go, I loved your book,

Speaker 6 From Mindfulness,

Speaker 6 From Madness to Mindfulness.

Speaker 7 I've had friends joke. They're like, we're going to call it

Speaker 7 from Mindfulness to Madness from Dr. Jen's story.

Speaker 6 But it's very interesting, and there's 10 million points. And I highly recommend you guys read it.
It's a very easy, very fun read. It's available on Amazon.

Speaker 6 I'm putting the link of your website on this episode so you guys, everybody can see your amazing work. But from the whole book, if it's possible,

Speaker 6 like one final message, because I know there's so many people out there that want to have great sex lives, that want to speak up, all of these things that we talked about, but they don't know how to start.

Speaker 6 So maybe one fantastic first step or a word of encouragement.

Speaker 7 Well, and this, I think this, yeah, encapsulates everything we've talked about because the book is From Madness to Mindfulness, Reinventing Sex for Women.

Speaker 7 And the madness is literally everything we've just been talking about. And that we're taught this growing up.

Speaker 7 and as women and we have these experiences yet we're supposed to have these amazing sex lives and be passionate and desirous and orgasmic all the time. That's madness.

Speaker 7 And so then I teach basic mindfulness skills, which is everything I've been talking about.

Speaker 7 Like looking at the story, feel the emotions in you, have the courage to sit with it, do journaling on it, figure out where you learned these messages growing up.

Speaker 7 If there's one little thing to boil it down to, I would just say, it can be different. If it's not working for you and you're not happy or you're not satisfied, it can be different.

Speaker 7 And trust that and believe that. And you're worthy of that.

Speaker 6 I'm leaving proof. I'm leaving proof that it can be different.
You can always start over, you can always pick up and find the right partner for you, right? Thank you so much.

Speaker 6 It was such an honor having you're fun, you're amazing, you're beautiful, you're intelligent, you're the whole package.

Speaker 7 Thank you. My boyfriend thinks so is too.
Thank you,

Speaker 6 guys. Be safe out there, and like you said, respect each other, right?

Speaker 7 Be kind. Thank you so much.

Speaker 6 Much love. We'll come back very soon.

Speaker 7 Yay.

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