ASHLEY MADISON - AN INSIDE LOOK AT THE AFFAIRS PARADISE WEBSITE WITH SENIOR DIRECTOR OF COMMUNICATIONS ISABELLA MISE

Speaker 1 This is Marshawn Beast Mode Lynch. Prize Pick is making sports season even more fun.
On Prize Picks, whether you're a football fan, a basketball fan, it always feels good to be right.

Speaker 1 And right now, new users get $50 instantly in lineups when you play your first $5. The app is simple to use.
Pick two or more players, pick more or less on their stat projections.

Speaker 1 Anything from touchdown to threes, and if you're right, you can win big. Mix and match players from any sport on PrizePicks, Prize America's number one daily fantasy sports app.

Speaker 1 PrizePicks is available in 40-plus states, including California, Texas, Florida, and Georgia. Most importantly, all the transactions on the app are fast, safe, and secure.

Speaker 2 Download the PrizePicks app today and use code Spotify to get $50 in lineups after you play your first $5 lineup. That's code Spotify to get $50 in lineups after you play your first $5 lineup.

Speaker 2 PrizePicks, it's good to be right. Must be present in a certain states.
Visit PrizePicks.com for restrictions and details.

Speaker 3 My guest today, Isabella Mies, is the senior director of communications for Ashley Madison.

Speaker 3 For those of you who don't know, Ashley Madison is the very controversial website for people who cheat specifically. Isabella has been working for Ashley Madison for over six years,

Speaker 3 and she came over to the show to shed light on why more and more people around the world are exploring non-monogamy and using Ashley Madison. And the site attracts millions of people.

Speaker 3 They have over 80 million members globally since it started in 2002. I know the numbers are massive.
It is crazy. It's a fact.
People do cheat and they do use the site. I'm not saying I agree with it.

Speaker 3 I'm not saying it's right, but it's a fact that it's something that happens worldwide and a lot of people are curious about it.

Speaker 3 And she was very open in terms of answering all the questions that I threw at her.

Speaker 3 So, if you were ever curious about the subject, if you were ever curious about Ashley Madison, she was super kind, super nice when it came to answering everything about it, including how she feels about

Speaker 3 working for a website where everyone is lying to their spouses and cheating. So, I hope you guys enjoy this episode about Ashley Madison, the inside scoop.

Speaker 3 And today's episode of Caronde Lou Sex Dating and Relationships is made possible thanks to Gold Standard Builders,

Speaker 3 a licensed general contractor, design and construction company in Los Angeles, California, a family-owned business, a team passionate about delivering great service, quality, and the most important thing, very fair pricing.

Speaker 3 They pay great attention to every detail to ensure the finished project always meets your expectations.

Speaker 3 I know it's so hard trusting someone when it comes to remodeling our homes and these guys always, always do a fantastic job.

Speaker 3 So if you've been thinking about redoing your kitchen, maybe redoing your bathroom, getting your backyard ready for the summer, these are the guys that get it done. And this is the best part.

Speaker 3 They offer free consultations and free estimates, no catches. So if you are in the great Los Angeles area, give them a call 1-800-469-9189 or send them an email, info at goldstandardbuilders.com.

Speaker 3 Check out the beautiful projects. They do lots and lots of photos on their website, goldstandardbuilders.com, and get your home remodeled, looking amazing at very, very fair, affordable prices.

Speaker 3 Isabella, welcome to Cat on the Loose. Thank you so much for being on the show.
It's a huge pleasure to have you.

Speaker 4 Thank you for having me. I'm very excited to chat.

Speaker 3 I am very excited as well. And of course, we have a million questions because this is kind of like a controversial, cloudy subject.
So I really appreciate that you're here to clarify everything.

Speaker 3 We're going to talk about Ashley Madison.

Speaker 3 So to get started, for those who don't know what it is, or maybe for those who think they know or have an idea, can you explain in a nutshell what it is and who is it for?

Speaker 4 Absolutely. So Ashley Madison is a married dating site.

Speaker 4 So it's an online dating platform, primarily created for those that were already married in a relationship and looking to outsource and make other connections. And we've been around since 2002.

Speaker 4 So it's been a while. It's, you know, it's been around and we're currently more than 80 million members around the world.
So. Wow.

Speaker 3 So it's massive. Like, yeah, we're going to talk about the 80 million members.
Now, you said it's specifically for married people.

Speaker 4 That was, again, why the site was created back in 2002. It was actually interesting.

Speaker 4 It was created based on the insight, but at the time, around 30% of people that were on singles dating sites were actually married.

Speaker 4 So the people that started the website said, why not create a space where people can actually be honest and transparent about the fact that they are married and looking for something else rather than pretend to be single on singles dating sites when they were in fact married.

Speaker 4 So they're sort of a light bulb moment where they decided to start.

Speaker 3 Okay, that's amazing. Okay, so, but you said they're being honest and transparent on Ashley Madison, but they're lying at home to their partners, right?

Speaker 4 It's interesting. So, yes, again, the site originally created primarily, again, for married people.
Obviously, it's been around now for more than 20 years. So,

Speaker 4 our audience, while still the majority, again, are

Speaker 4 married daters, we still attract a number of different different

Speaker 4 users who are in less conventional relationships. What I mean by that

Speaker 4 is we can look at it sort of disclosed and undisclosed non-monogamy. So

Speaker 4 undisclosed, obviously people who are having secret affairs

Speaker 4 without the knowledge of their partner.

Speaker 4 But then there's also a whole portion of our membership today that are actually on the site in a disclosed non-monogamous relationship, meaning some form of open relationship, maybe polyamory, swinging, monogamish.

Speaker 4 So they're either on the site with their partner or at least with the knowledge.

Speaker 3 That's very interesting because these open marriages are becoming more and more common every single day, right?

Speaker 3 A lot of people don't want to admit it or talk about it because I know there's so much stigma because our idea of marriage, maybe because the way we are brought up, we think like, you know, I'm going to be with one person and I'm loyal to that person and I can't cheat and that's the way it is it's like you know that's square which of course it works for a lot of people but for a lot of people it's changing and evolving yeah it's really interesting so i've actually worked at ashley madison for more than six years now and even in that time i joined in 2017 i've seen such an evolution in in our membership and sort of what they're looking for.

Speaker 4 But you're right, like even the people who are in

Speaker 4 an open relationship, they still come to us for for that discretion. So at its core, Ashley Madison offers discretion.

Speaker 4 That's really, again, people come for the like-minded community, people who are looking for the same thing, but also for that discretion piece.

Speaker 4 So even people who are in open relationships, they don't tell a lot of people in their life. You know, they don't tell their family, their friends, their kids.

Speaker 4 You know, the couple knows, but that's sort of it a lot of times because there is even Again, even though it's a mutual agreement, there is a fear of that judgment and what will people think.

Speaker 4 And so they do want to keep it discreet and so again that is often why they they're first attracted to join ashley madison but it's interesting because i do think that is evolving i do think it's changing as well um and i think even the pandemic was a huge turning point for how people view relationships that idea that maybe you can't get everything from one person after all.

Speaker 4 And we have to sort of start getting a bit more creative in how we design a relationship.

Speaker 3 Yeah, that's a very evolved way of thinking. Because I do know, like for a lot of couples, it's a big deal.

Speaker 3 But let's go step by step because there are so many questions and we're getting ahead and i know because i know my listeners are gonna ask so the the headline that you guys use i think from the the very beginning right is life is short have an affair so like you said this is how it started and i think that was the number one criticism when we talk about ashley madison to this day i think the number one criticism we we hear even like when i tell like my team and my friends oh oh, I'm going to interview Isabella from Ashley Marriott, the immediate thing that it comes to mind is, oh my God, they are destroying marriages, they're destroying relationships, they're encouraging people to cheat.

Speaker 3 So can you talk about this marketing headline and how you guys see it?

Speaker 4 Yeah, of course. I think it's a totally fair question.
So again, the site started back in 2002.

Speaker 4 It really was, I think, one of the first disruptor brands in the online dating space. And obviously, again,

Speaker 4 there was controversy and a lot of,

Speaker 4 I think,

Speaker 4 cheekiness even from how we approached the brand and the marketing back then. Obviously, I wasn't there back then, but I think just, you know, we're not a brand that took ourselves overly seriously.

Speaker 4 I mean, really, you know, again, I think we've always

Speaker 4 approached it in that same way. So I think the headline really, again, the tagline spoke to the fact that, again, what we were doing was targeting married dating,

Speaker 4 married daters, and the idea of, you know,

Speaker 4 if you're not getting everything from that one person, you know, there is an opportunity to,

Speaker 4 again,

Speaker 4 you know, I think traditionally it's either, you know,

Speaker 4 you stay and maybe you're not fully fulfilled or you get a divorce, right? It's very binary. And I think at the time, Ashley Madison presented another path, right?

Speaker 4 Where you don't necessarily have to leave your your partner. You can perhaps outsource some of these needs with other people who are also looking for the same thing.

Speaker 4 They're being honest and upfront about looking for the same thing. And neither party is looking to leave their current situation, right? So I think it was the idea of

Speaker 4 both having equal amount of skin in the game, right? Whereas I think, again,

Speaker 4 a lot of people will either, again, back then, would pretend to be single and walk into the bar, pretend to be single and go,

Speaker 4 you know, into a single dating website. Ashley Madison really was creating a space where people could pursue those types of relationships very directly.

Speaker 3 So you guys, I guess you felt or the creator of Ashley Madison, you guys felt that obviously people cheat, period.

Speaker 4 It existed. Infidelity existed long before Ashley Madison.

Speaker 3 So you're just facilitating a platform where everybody that wants to have these affairs can meet each other. Basically, that's how it was created.

Speaker 4 And again, the core offering really being that discretion piece.

Speaker 3 So, so, how does that work? I know you, and I read that about you as well. You say it's very discreet.

Speaker 3 How is that so? Like, do you protect the members? Do you guarantee that they're not going to be found?

Speaker 3 Because if you Google Ashley Madison, there's a bunch of things in forums and stuff that say, like, oh, this is how you can find out if your husband is cheating.

Speaker 3 This is how you can find out if your husband's on Ashley Madison. How do you have a way to protect your members?

Speaker 4 So really what we mean, again, by discretion and

Speaker 4 being sort of having a discretion offering at its core is the site was designed and built where people can really control their experience.

Speaker 4 So I would say the biggest sort of feature around that is the idea of having a private key for your photos. So again,

Speaker 4 you can control when you want people to have access to seeing what you look like, your photos, all that. So it's not putting everything out there at once.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 again, giving members a bit more control on how they want to really sort of reveal certain parts of themselves. So it's really just in how the product is really designed with that discretion piece.

Speaker 4 And obviously, again, like, you know, so much of

Speaker 4 our audience over time has really evolved. But I think that

Speaker 4 just knowing that there is that like-minded community of people, I think

Speaker 4 gives people a lot of comfort that they're in a place where people are looking for the same thing. And again, most people are,

Speaker 4 interestingly enough, we call it straying to stay. Like, so straying to stay married.

Speaker 4 Like they really, and I think this is, you know, would come as a surprise, at least for me it came as a surprise to when i started learning more a lot of people consider themselves in a lot of ways happily married you know in right four to five areas areas of those key pillars of marriage a lot of times it's it's just that one piece missing and they don't really feel

Speaker 4 that they want to leave their partner right and and sort of love their whole life because this one thing is missing so i think that's i yeah the idea people who come to our site are not necessarily again looking to to leave they really are looking to preserve they just want an adventure do you know the main reason most of your clients use ashley medicine did you guys ever do some kind of a research about it is it boredom is it i don't know like just an adventure try something new do you have any idea oh yeah absolutely so again a big part of what we do is that research piece like you mentioned so and we do that different ways right we have you know the opportunity to survey our members.

Speaker 4 So we actually survey our members almost on a bi-weekly basis around the world.

Speaker 4 And we will, you know, each survey has a different theme and we'll poll our members on different themes and different questions we have.

Speaker 4 And that's a really great way for us to get a temperature check on why they're on our site, what benefits they're getting, what brought them there, et cetera.

Speaker 4 And we've also historically worked with a lot of external research partners.

Speaker 4 And it's interesting because I think a lot of what we're led to believe around infidelity and monogamy

Speaker 4 isn't entirely accurate, right? So again, we have this long held belief that infidelity is a male dominant behavior. We have this long held belief that monogamy is harder for men than it is for women.

Speaker 4 Men cheat for sex, women cheat for emotion, all of these sort of things that I think in mainstream media, we're sort of told.

Speaker 4 And that's really sort of flipped on its head, at least from our research and what we see. And so we worked with a researcher, Dr.
Alicia Walker, out of the University of Missouri.

Speaker 4 And she actually did separate research projects on why women cheat and why men cheat. And in both of those studies, she looked at people on Ashley Madison.

Speaker 4 And what she felt primarily, and what she found primarily in her research, was that women were cheating for sex, good sex, better sex. Men were cheating for more of the emotional validation.

Speaker 3 That's interesting.

Speaker 4 Yeah. And so,

Speaker 4 you know,

Speaker 4 her research ended up, you know, turning into two books.

Speaker 4 The book on my men's sheet was called Chasing Masculinity. And a lot of the themes she explored there from her research on people in Ashley-Madison was really men wanted to feel wanted again, desired.

Speaker 4 So a lot of times,

Speaker 4 even just chatting with women and not actually like reaching the point of a physical affair was enough for the men. Just knowing they were wanted and they were feeling desired again.
And

Speaker 4 oftentimes that would lead to a physical affair but really that the desire to feel wanted um and listened to and heard and seen was a huge motivator for men women on the other hand were in oftentimes sexless or orgasmless marriages

Speaker 4 and

Speaker 4 you know again they didn't want to leave their partner they felt very you know emotionally fulfilled in a lot of the ways they felt like they had a good co-parent a good a best friend a financial partner they really built their life around this person, but they weren't having great sex or the type of sex they wanted.

Speaker 4 And that was why they chose Ashley Madison. They were really coming to outsource physical needs, physical intimacy.

Speaker 4 They didn't want to, again,

Speaker 4 develop that emotional, necessarily that emotional peace.

Speaker 4 They just wanted sexual.

Speaker 3 Yeah, it's interesting that you say that because I just interviewed a few weeks ago, one of the top sexologists in the United States and in the world, Dr. Tammy Nelson, and she said the same thing.

Speaker 3 She does tons and tons of research and she does research for different websites. I don't know if she worked with you guys.
I forgot.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I spoke with Tammy.

Speaker 3 Yeah, but she said, yeah, she said that, and I had no idea, but she said nowadays women cheat just as much as men and many times because they're unfulfilled sexually.

Speaker 3 Like maybe they don't want to leave their partners or whatever, or there's the stigma or the family, the criticism, but they also want to have more sex, basically.

Speaker 4 Absolutely. Yeah.

Speaker 4 And there was a stat that came out not long ago that said, I think, you know, since the early 90s, female infidelity rates have gone up around 30%, where male infidelity rates have remained relatively stagnant.

Speaker 4 But that also begs the question: are women cheating more or women just more comfortable talking?

Speaker 4 Right.

Speaker 3 That's a good question. I don't know.
I think they're just, I personally think they're cheating more because women are becoming more independent.

Speaker 3 Women are having more balls, so to speak, to go after what they want.

Speaker 3 And I'm not saying it's right or wrong because I know I'm going to get 10 million messages saying, like, oh, I'm encouraging people to cheat, blah, blah, blah. I'm not encouraging anybody to cheat.

Speaker 3 I'm just saying that it's a fact. People cheat.

Speaker 3 And I think that's why, because they're trying to just seek whatever they don't have in their relationships.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 4 And I think that's, you know, totally the approach, you know,

Speaker 4 I take as well. And I actually, you know, I have the privilege of talking to a lot of

Speaker 4 both women and men that use our site and I hear directly from them sort of what brings them there. And I just approach it from, you know, again, it's a place of curiosity, right? It's not about.

Speaker 4 good, bad, right, wrong. If you agree, if you don't, it's almost just understanding human behavior and human motivation.

Speaker 4 and i think whether or not you agree with it you can't deny that it's happening and it's happening in huge numbers yeah and i do think when it comes to non-monogamy more and more women are really leading the way they're the trailblazers actually

Speaker 4 and i think um

Speaker 4 we're just going to see more and more women i think talk about it and what's also interesting is i think that this idea of variety sexual variety we think is so unique to men and what they need but a lot of times women that find themselves in sexless relationships, the women I talk to, they actually convince themselves, you know, they hit their mid-40s, 50s, they convince themselves that maybe they don't like sex anymore because they're uninterested in having sex with their spouse.

Speaker 4 And, you know, they feel a decline in attraction. And they sort of chalk it up to, okay, maybe sex is just sort of something I've lost interest in as a whole.

Speaker 4 And then they have their first affair and they say, wait a second, no, I actually love sex.

Speaker 4 It's just that I lost interest in having it the same way for so many years and again things impact it right like family motherhood parenthood seeing your partner maybe differently and kind of getting into routines but it's anyway i can go on and on it's very interesting no and i agree with you and like i said me personally i'm just saying for for my listeners i don't condone cheating because

Speaker 3 not that I'm a prude or anything, because I don't like lies. I think lies are kind of like cockroaches, you know, where there is one, there's like 10 million.
So that's the part that bothers me.

Speaker 3 I would be more like the person, if I'm in a relationship, if I wanted to cheat or see somebody else, I prefer a person to look me in the eyes and just say it.

Speaker 3 I have a lot more respect for people that do that. But that being said,

Speaker 3 I agree with you. Most people don't have that courage.
Most people know if they look at their partner's eyes and say, oh my God, you know,

Speaker 3 I want to have more sex. I want to get most, especially wives.

Speaker 3 If a husband would tell them that, most wives in the world would freak out and almost die of a heart attack because they don't want to be cheated on. And I understand it's a big stigma around

Speaker 3 this situation. Like, you know,

Speaker 3 I'm not happy, but I can tell my partner that I'm not happy because I can't rock the boat.

Speaker 3 So, as much as I don't agree with people that cheat because of the lying part of it, I understand why they do, if that makes sense. The countdown is on.
Holiday shopping season is officially here.

Speaker 3 Uncommon goods takes the stress out of gifting with thousands of unique, high-quality finds you won't see anywhere else. So don't wait.
The most meaningful gifts get scooped up fast.

Speaker 3 And now it's the perfect time to cross names off your list. Uncommon goods looks for products that are high-quality, unique, and often handmade or made in the USA.

Speaker 3 Many are crafted by independent artists and small businesses. I love that, making every gift feel meaningful and truly one of a kind.
I found so many adorable things on Uncommon Goods.

Speaker 3 You guys have no idea.

Speaker 3 For my friends, family, even for my pets, Uncommon Goods has something for everyone, from moms and dads to kids and teens, from book lovers, history buffs, and die-hard football fans to foodies, mixologists, and avid gardeners.

Speaker 3 You'll find thousands of new gift ideas that you won't find anywhere else. When you shop at Uncommon Goods, you're supporting artists and small independent businesses.

Speaker 3 Many of their handcrafted products are made in small batches. So shop now before they sell out this holiday season.
And with every purchase you make at Uncommon Goods, they give back $1

Speaker 3 to a non-profit partner of your choice. They've donated more than $3 million to date.
How nice is that? So don't wait. Let's cross our names off our lists before the rush.

Speaker 3 To get 15% off your next gift, go to uncommon goods.com slash cat. That's uncommon goods.com slash cat K-A-T for 15%

Speaker 3 off a gift on uncommon goods. We are all out of the ordinary.

Speaker 3 Guys, I never thought I would say this, but this Black friday instead of buying more stuff i don't need i decided to invest in my sex life instead we all know black friday is about deals but what would you rather do spend hundreds of dollars in stuff you don't need or 69 bucks on improving your sex life yes at beducated.com real talk no one ever really teaches us how to be amazing in bed we're just supposed to figure it out somehow right well that's exactly what I thought until I found Beducated.

Speaker 3 I started exploring their courses because I wanted to understand understand not just pleasure but connection, and it completely changed how I see intimacy.

Speaker 3 I learned simple, real techniques that make you more confident, more in tune with your partner, and honestly, more empowered in your own body.

Speaker 3 Beducated is a safe space for all, and that's my favorite part, no matter relationship status, sexual orientation, or gender.

Speaker 3 So, if you're ready to level up your love and sex life solo or with a partner, go to beducate.me/slash cat69. That's my code, CATKAT69, to get 65% off the yearly pass.

Speaker 3 That's their biggest discount of the year. And it's completely risk-free, 14-day money-back guarantee.
So go to bedjukate.me slash cat69 and give yourself a gift that will last.

Speaker 5 The holidays mean more travel, more shopping, more time online, and more personal info in more places that could expose you more to identity theft.

Speaker 5 But LifeLock monitors millions of data points per second. If your identity is stolen, our U.S.-based restoration specialists will fix it guaranteed or your money back.

Speaker 5 Don't face drained accounts, fraudulent loans, or financial losses alone. Get more holiday fun and less holiday worry with Life Lock.
Save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.com/slash podcast.

Speaker 5 Terms apply.

Speaker 6 This episode is brought to you by Progressive Commercial Insurance. Business owners meet Progressive Insurance.

Speaker 6 They make it easy to get discounts on commercial auto insurance and find coverages to grow with your business. Quote in as little as eight minutes at progressivecommercial.com.

Speaker 6 Progressive Casualty Insurance Company, coverage provided and serviced by affiliated and third-party insurers. Discounts and coverage selections not available in all states or situations.

Speaker 4 No, absolutely. It makes sense.
I think those are all really valid points. And I do think in terms of having that toolkit on how to communicate with

Speaker 4 your partner and how to broach those conversations, I think, I mean, that's a lot of what dr tammy nelson does right is actually i think people need that that language and that those tools and those resources to know how do you even begin to have these conversations

Speaker 4 you know i'm not married but i would imagine you know if you're with someone for 20 plus years you know and that part of your life has gone stale it's intimidating to have to broach those topics in a way where you still want to protect your partner's feelings and you don't want them to feel like your relationship is threatened at all and you want to just it's i think it's hard and i don't think there are enough tools out there but i think it's changing i agree it's super intimidating i'll tell you i was married for 15 years and i had a really crappy marriage because i talked about on the podcast many times because my husband was very wealthy and the more money he made, the more he drank.

Speaker 3 And you know, alcoholics usually, they don't want to have sex because they're always drunk. So my sex life dwindled, dwindled, dwindled.
And I never cheated, by the way, ever.

Speaker 3 And I, like you said, I was this woman that was super frustrated in my 30s. And I thought, okay, that's it.

Speaker 3 And then once I got out of the marriage and I started having great sex with whoever I was dating, I realized that that's really important.

Speaker 3 So I agree with you. I think maybe if more couples would communicate during the relationship,

Speaker 4 Maybe they would have less affairs or maybe they would go to Ashley Madison together and other people that agree with the same lifestyle in terms of being everybody should be fulfilled for whatever they want to do i don't know exactly no it's it's true and i mean a lot of again like it's easy when it comes to having those conversations and all of those things and making those changes always easier said than done i think yes and again when talking to members a lot of them say you know i tried talking my partner or we went into couples therapy or i tried bringing this up or we tried experiment and and to no avail, right?

Speaker 4 It just wasn't successful.

Speaker 4 But I do think, I mean, again, I'm not sure if you spoke to Dr. Tammy about this in your conversation, but I really like this idea of developing a monogamy agreement

Speaker 4 because what Dr. Tammy speaks about a lot in her work is when you get married, you make an explicit promise to be faithful, to be monogamous, with a lot of

Speaker 4 implicit assumptions about what that actually means to be monogamous and to be faithful over time.

Speaker 4 And that is why I think a lot of couples hit these roadblocks because yes, of course, you're meant to be faithful to your partner, but the expectation is that you're going to get sex in that relationship.

Speaker 4 All of a sudden, one person completely loses interest in sex altogether. Is the other person then meant to be celibate for the rest of their life?

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 what does that mean?

Speaker 4 So it's interesting, this idea of the monogamy agreement is, you know, the vows you make when you get married may no longer be, you know, what you need five years in, 10 years in, when your kids leave the house and you're empty nesters and you just look at each other and say, are we still in love?

Speaker 4 You know, do we still want the same things? So it's almost having this agreement where you revisit the terms, right? At different,

Speaker 4 at different, you know, touch points in the relationship. And for some people, you know, monogamy makes sense for the purpose of raising a family.
But maybe beyond that,

Speaker 4 it no longer makes sense. You know, so I think that's why I love that idea.

Speaker 3 I think that's a very fair idea.

Speaker 3 Yeah, it's something that should be revisited as the marriage goes on and on and on, and things change because, yeah, some people have very high sex drives, some people are more adventurous, other people are not that interested.

Speaker 3 And I hear that complaint both from men and women all the time. Now,

Speaker 3 what's the ratio of men and women on the site?

Speaker 4 Yeah, that's a great question.

Speaker 4 So so we're actually pretty balanced globally really there are certain yeah there are certain markets um brazil for example that actually have twice as many active women as they do seriously oh that's so funny because you know i was born in brazil and brazil is a really funny society because

Speaker 3 like in front of everybody they're like all family oriented and catholics blah blah blah but i think it's one of the

Speaker 3 countries where people cheat the most because it's ingrained in their personality.

Speaker 4 Yeah, exactly. No, exactly.
It's interesting because

Speaker 4 that's an interesting point in that when you look at different places in the world, the place that sometimes you think would be the most conservative are actually where people are seeking that out.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 4 Well, yeah, but no, generally speaking, we are. we are pretty balanced in terms of the male-to-female ratio.

Speaker 3 How about the United States?

Speaker 4 Yes, United States, it's, and again, we actually produce annual reports. So we look at it year over year, but yes, in the States, it's it's quite balanced.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 yeah, I think again, people find that surprising because I think there's just an assumption that it's more men or only men cheat. But again, it's just not.

Speaker 4 not what we're seeing.

Speaker 4 And again, I think that's why I'm always so fascinated speaking to women on our site because I just, I think the story around infidelity is just, we've really only, I feel like, heard about it in the context of men cheating over the years.

Speaker 4 And I think that's the same with just like sexuality in general. Female sexuality is so understudied in comparison to male sexuality.
And so I think that,

Speaker 4 yeah, I think people are very surprised to learn sort of, again, how many women really are coming to Ashley Madison and sort of, again, coming for the purpose, a very pragmatic purpose of just getting their sexual needs met.

Speaker 4 So, yeah.

Speaker 3 Now, one question that I think a lot of people have, and I did too, and I think it's a normal curiosity.

Speaker 3 Because there are so many married men and maybe men with money, maybe successful men, I don't know.

Speaker 3 Does the site attract a lot of sugar babies, escorts, women who are there for the wrong reasons, women who are there because they want want this guy. They know these guys are needy, probably.

Speaker 3 They want something. Many times they just want great sex.
So do you guys see a lot of these women who want guys, you know, to pay them for things?

Speaker 3 I'm not saying prostitutes, but like, you know, sugar babies, arrangements, et cetera, et cetera.

Speaker 4 So those are, yeah, those are two obviously different things that you're talking about. But no, the answer is that is not what our site offers.
That's not what people are coming for.

Speaker 4 Now, does that mean we never come across things like that? No.

Speaker 4 But again, if we have processes in place that if people are coming for certain purposes or intentions that are not in line with what we offer or again,

Speaker 4 our terms and conditions, then those people would be removed from the site. Because at the end of the day, we want to preserve.
our member experience and what our members are coming for is not that.

Speaker 4 Our members are coming again for the true purpose of

Speaker 4 finding connections,

Speaker 4 like that married dating is that core offering. So again, like with any dating site, people are always going to come in with the wrong intentions or different purposes.

Speaker 4 But we, again, we have processes in place that really will lead that out.

Speaker 3 Yeah, for sure. For that matter, that's one thing that I agree.
You can open bumble. And that's the number one complaint, by the way.

Speaker 3 I talked to hundreds and hundreds hundreds of men because of the podcast, and they all complain that no matter which site they use, there is always the girls asking for money, asking for gifts, asking for this, as for that.

Speaker 3 So I don't think it's an Ashley Madison problem. I think it's a dating site problem in China.

Speaker 4 Right. Exactly.
It's a dating issue. Yeah.
No, that's a good question. It's a valid question.

Speaker 3 Yeah, no, because I know a lot of people are going to want to ask that question. So it's not for somebody who's trying to find, it's not like a sugar, baby, sugar daddy type arrangement website.

Speaker 4 No, no, it's not.

Speaker 3 Um, so and it's not an app, you specifically have to go on the site.

Speaker 4 No, we have an app as well. Oh, you do?

Speaker 3 Oh, yeah, yeah, because somebody asked me that question, I didn't know. So, you do have an app, yes, we have an app, exactly.
And, but how does it work?

Speaker 3 Like, practically, let's say I register there, I put my profile. You said you can you can hide your pictures if you want to maintain your privacy.

Speaker 4 It's free for everyone to join um but it's worth noting that um men pay so men purchase credits to initiate conversations but it's free for women oh really so women don't have to pay yeah

Speaker 3 oh sorry go ahead so women don't have to pay for a membership or anything

Speaker 4 yeah so no one again no one has to pay to join but for to initiate a conversation men would have to purchase credits the only caveat there is if it's um female seeking female so if it's um women looking to talk to another one then the female who initiates the conversation would have to pay.

Speaker 4 But for the most part,

Speaker 4 for the most part, it is

Speaker 4 only the men that have to say.

Speaker 3 So to protect someone, because I would guess most people,

Speaker 3 because they're married or in relationship, whatever, they don't want to put all their pictures out there, right?

Speaker 4 So

Speaker 3 how do you choose, how do they choose each other? initially if they because usually you know dating sites you see the person's photo and you're like oh yeah he's attractive she's attractive.

Speaker 3 Let me look at everything else. How does that work for Ashino Madison?

Speaker 4 Yeah. And that's, again, another great question.
So it's different for each member.

Speaker 4 I think, again, we have the private key feature where people can choose to just sort of initiate a conversation first and then slowly reveal photos.

Speaker 4 There's also, again, people that might only want to include certain photos where you can't really tell. you know, you can't really see their face or you can sort of get a sense.

Speaker 4 But again, it's a comfort level thing.

Speaker 4 So I think that it's when they're comfortable to and again other people by the way we have single people on our site which also surprises people oh really so so what are the single people doing on the site they want to have relationships with married people yeah so again like i think in terms of the discretionary piece i think that just to go back to answer your question in terms of like how people think

Speaker 4 physicality or sort of physical attraction is such a huge component in connecting with people right you need to know if you're going to be physically attractive so i think to to answer the question around that i think it really depends on the scenario in the sense of, you know, again, if someone is single joining Ashley and Bias, then they're not going to be as concerned.

Speaker 4 So they're probably going to be more forthcoming with showing photos, right?

Speaker 4 Same with people maybe who are,

Speaker 4 again, a lot of people come to our site who maybe are going through a divorce, but they're not yet ready. to go on a singles dating site.

Speaker 4 Maybe they don't want their partner to know they're out there dating because you understand like how online dating works.

Speaker 4 If your friend sees your partner on an online dating site or your ex or people.

Speaker 4 So I think that discretion piece is still really valuable for people who are in between relationships or have sort of a complicated situation. They might want to just, again, not be as forthcoming.

Speaker 4 But again, if they're someone that's on with the knowledge of their partner or are in between relationships or single, they might not be again as concerned in terms of showing photos

Speaker 4 than someone who is having like sort of what you would consider a traditional secret affair where they might want to take more of a slow approach to put their photos.

Speaker 3 So yeah, so if somebody doesn't want to show their face, you still let them put like, I don't know, a picture of their body? Do you let them put sexy pictures?

Speaker 4 Or again, and they might, they might eventually, like, they might start with more of like a a body shot. And then gradually as they're talking, somebody feel, okay, I'm comfortable now.

Speaker 4 I want to show them,

Speaker 4 you know, my face. Or again, there's that, it's designed to give people that freedom to sort of share sort of as they feel comfortable.

Speaker 4 But again, like I said, because our audience is changing and evolving,

Speaker 4 it's just different degrees of people wanting to have that.

Speaker 4 I sort of.

Speaker 3 That's all, that's very interesting. So how about this is an interesting question.
And you've been working there for a long time, right? Six years.

Speaker 3 It makes me think.

Speaker 3 Do you remember the movie Fatal Attraction? Like that the guy has an affair, because an affair is supposed, everything is supposed to work out, right?

Speaker 3 You go, you have an affair, and then you go back home to your family. You don't rock the boat.
Everything is fine.

Speaker 3 But there are crazy people out there that they have an affair with you, but then they decide they want more. Because I always hear these stories, you know, because I do the podcast.

Speaker 3 Like, oh my God, I went out with this woman and now she's trying to follow me and now she knows my picture and now she knows my name and then they you know obviously the extreme is like the blackmailing or telling the wife and all that stuff because it happens have you ever heard of stories like that

Speaker 4 I think again

Speaker 4 that's almost just I think dating in general

Speaker 4 I think it's to a degree it's it's I mean I think

Speaker 4 you see things happen. And honestly, I don't even know if, again, like, I don't even know if if it's online dating.
I just think it's sort of

Speaker 4 a case of, you know, expectation versus reality.

Speaker 4 I think that anytime you're entering the dating world, there's always potential for one person to feel more strongly or one person to get more attached. Or

Speaker 4 again, in the case of

Speaker 4 one person being married and the other person not being married,

Speaker 4 again, things may be going sideways. I think, again, at the end of the day, the reason that Ashley Madison sort of was created was to have this idea.

Speaker 4 And I know people, when you say like, you know, we wanted to create an honest dating site, but it's an infidelity website. People sort of can't

Speaker 4 kind of understand how those two are connected. But really, I think the idea was to create a space where people can be very direct and upfront about the fact that this is what they're looking for.

Speaker 4 This is what, you know, what they want. And the idea is almost having that,

Speaker 4 again, like the equal skin in the game, what we talk, talk what we call like mutually assured destruction so you know you're married i'm married we're both look we both have something here on the line and we're both looking really to get the same thing out of it um so i think that's why

Speaker 4 a site like ashley madison is you know i think we why we are so popular and i think why some people still do come to us but again obviously again in online dating there's always going to be

Speaker 4 people that aren't don't have you know good intentions. I don't think that's at all unique to Ashley Madison.

Speaker 3 No, no, I agree. I'm just saying, in your case, because

Speaker 3 the guys that are married and they might go out with girls that,

Speaker 3 you know, there's always the woman.

Speaker 4 Yeah, the guys are the women.

Speaker 3 But, you know, there's always the person that says, oh, I'm going to make him

Speaker 3 leave the wife for me. You know, that famous story is like, oh, yeah.

Speaker 3 Oh, he's going to leave the wife because of me. And, you know, it usually doesn't work that way.

Speaker 4 Yeah, not to a a degree. You're right.
And I think another thing, so no, I haven't seen that, but I know what you mean.

Speaker 4 I think, like, even the fact that you brought up a movie, like such a well-known Hollywood classic movie that so many people, like, again, some of your listeners will know that reference right away.

Speaker 4 I think it sort of informs where we get a lot of these ideas around cheating and infidelity in marriage because what we see on TV, it's what we see in movies.

Speaker 3 But it's not reality. Most of the time, you're saying it works out.
Like from your experience, most of the time it's moot sailing.

Speaker 4 It works out in the sunset. Do people meet on Ashley Madison and have a fairy tale?

Speaker 3 No,

Speaker 3 like they're happy with the results.

Speaker 4 So yeah, so what we consider to be a successful affair is an undiscovered affair. So I think, again, that is how we look at

Speaker 4 sort of what a successful affair looks like. But mind you, we have had people, I was sort of

Speaker 4 being

Speaker 4 cheeky before, but we actually have had people come to Ashley Madison and meet, fall in love and get married. We actually had a couple that were both married.

Speaker 4 And this is, I would say, this is the exception more so than the rule, but we had a couple or people join both in relationships. They met on Ashley Madison.
They left their respective partners.

Speaker 4 for each other. They got married.

Speaker 4 And then I believe it was six years into their marriage, they decided they wanted to open up their relationship because they wanted to stay stay together and they knew that both of them were sort of getting that itch again.

Speaker 4 And so then they joined Ashley and Madison together.

Speaker 3 Wow.

Speaker 3 There you go. I guess it's all about communicating.
I don't know. Just saying, I think the more you communicate with your partner and go on adventures with your partner,

Speaker 3 less are the chances that they're going to go and cheat without you. That's just like my out take on it.
I don't know, but I agree with you. Most people are never going to do that.

Speaker 3 They're not comfortable doing that.

Speaker 3 Now, really quickly, because we're almost running out of time, I know, I think a long ways back at maybe in the beginning of Ashley Madison, you guys had a big problem in terms of fake profiles.

Speaker 3 Do you have any kind of filter? Do you have any kind of control that you know these people are real? Or do you control fake profiles at all?

Speaker 4 Yeah, so like again, like with online dating sites in general, we have a, you know, we have a rigorous system

Speaker 4 in place to release screen um so obviously we have like you know a bi team we have a customer service team and they're really in place to screen for all of that um

Speaker 4 again we we never want anyone with um

Speaker 4 sort of bad intentions on the platform so we have those processes put in a place to really um screen those out Okay, so you think most of your profiles are real people, like real

Speaker 3 people that want to.

Speaker 4 Yes, absolutely. And again, I talk to them every day.
And

Speaker 4 we survey them, we talk to them, we get their, you know, we really want to bring their experience.

Speaker 4 A big part of what I do is I want to bring their stories and their experiences to life and to the forefront.

Speaker 4 And I think why I think what you're doing is so important is I think you're fostering conversations and you're removing. shame and you're removing

Speaker 4 the sort of the taboo and the stigma and you're just creating a platform where people can really, you know,

Speaker 4 be upfront. And I think for our members, at least the ones I speak to, like, you know, they want to share those stories.
They want to create

Speaker 4 these conversations because I think the more we do that, I think slowly people,

Speaker 4 you know, maybe again, monogamy works for a lot of people. I think it's, you know, something that people are very successful in, but it doesn't work for everyone.

Speaker 4 And it shouldn't necessarily be the only way to look at a successful relationship. And so I think that the more we have these conversations,

Speaker 4 I think the more people will start to.

Speaker 3 Yeah, no, I completely agree with you. I think it's all about opening up conversations, which is what we try to do here and educate ourselves.
Because me,

Speaker 3 I didn't know as much about Ashley Madison. I think it's very interesting.
I definitely agree with you. It's something that happens.
People cheat, period.

Speaker 3 You can make believe they don't, or like a lot of married couples, they make believe they don't, but they do.

Speaker 3 You can decide to communicate with your partner and do it together, or you can go to a place like Ashley Madison and, like you said, have an undisclosed affair and go back to your life.

Speaker 3 I think it's a personal choice. And this is why I say I don't judge anybody.

Speaker 3 I think you got to figure out what works for you and what works for your relationship and what works for your marriage because we're all evolving.

Speaker 3 There's not, I think most of it, honestly, it's the way we grow up. We think about marriage.
We think about relationships. like in a square.

Speaker 3 And if you do, especially women, like you said, like even me, like I never cheated on anybody in my life, but I get called a whore every day because I do the sex podcast.

Speaker 3 People think like I'm having sex with multiple men every night.

Speaker 3 It's not the case, but you know what? If it was the case, we have every right to do that.

Speaker 3 So I think it's really important to bring, to open up these conversations because I think people should have the right to do whatever makes them happy because life is very short, in my opinion.

Speaker 4 I think that's great. I think what you're doing is fantastic.
And I'm so grateful to have had the opportunity to come and chat with you today. Thanks.

Speaker 3 I am too. And last but not least, before I let you go, I have to ask you this tough one in terms of like the ethical part of it or, you know, how do you feel bad about it? Do you, you know,

Speaker 3 have it resolved in your mind as a senior executive of this company? Or does the company say anything about that?

Speaker 4 I think it's a great question. It's obviously one that I've got many times before.
You have the first person to ask.

Speaker 4 So I'm, I mean, when I decided to work at the company, it was something that,

Speaker 4 again, like I didn't know a lot about this world. I had my own preconceived opinions about infidelity.
So by no means did I feel like this, you know, was something that I understood overnight.

Speaker 4 You know what I mean? Like, I think in a lot of ways, I still feel, as much as I work for this company, I'm still learning so much about the topic of monogamy and infidelity.

Speaker 4 I think that's why I love my job so much, because it feels like I'm learning every day. So in terms of the ethical piece, I'm a very open-minded person.

Speaker 4 And I thought I was a very open-minded person, but since working here, I think I've become even more so open-minded to sort of how, you know, people want to live their life.

Speaker 4 And I think that I always just say, if we can replace judgment with curiosity,

Speaker 4 I think we, you know, can learn learn a lot from each other.

Speaker 4 And again, I certainly learn a lot from the members that use our site every day, but I also get to work with a lot of experts in their field, right? I get to work with sex therapists.

Speaker 4 I get to work with academics, sociologists, psychologists. And I learn about human behavior.
And so for me, it really, I don't look at it as good, bad, right, wrong.

Speaker 4 I look at it as we're all having a human experience. I look at it as relationships are

Speaker 4 work and they're hard and they're not, they're not simple, and you don't really know until you walk in someone else's shoes. So, for me,

Speaker 4 I just think I have one of the coolest jobs ever.

Speaker 3 It must be very interesting for sure.

Speaker 3 And I agree with you. He said, I don't judge anyone.
I think each person needs to figure out what's best for them. This is just an option out there.

Speaker 3 So, I'm not condone because I know I'm going to get bombarded.

Speaker 3 I'm not condoning cheating. I'm not saying cheat, don't cheat, have an open marriage.
I think each person needs to decide what's best for them.

Speaker 3 But I am so grateful and happy that you came here to educate us about Ashley Madison, and it was a huge pleasure having you. Thank you so much.

Speaker 4 Thank you so much.

Speaker 3 I really appreciate it. And, guys, be safe out there, no matter what you do.
Self-love first, and I'll see you soon.