ACTOR DEOBIA OPAREI

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Speaker 2 My guest this week, British-born Nigerian actor Diobia Operi,

Speaker 2 has starred in some iconic shows such as HBO's Game of Thrones, Netflix's Sex Education, and Marvel's Loki, and also some cinematic blockbusters such as Pirates of the Caribbean, Jew Manji, and Guy Rich's thriller Wrath of Men.

Speaker 2 Diobia began his career in theater at the Royal Shakespeare Company and is a published Royal Corps Theater playwright.

Speaker 2 I met him a few years ago at the Soho House when I was doing an actor's workshop and I fell in love with his work and his energy and I was trying to get him on the show for the past three years and I am so so happy that he was visiting LA because he goes back and forth between London and LA.

Speaker 2 And he was in LA, and he finally said yes and found a little time in his schedule. We had such an incredibly fun, nice conversation.
Diobia is absolutely amazing.

Speaker 2 And whether you're an actor or not, whether you're interested in becoming an actor or not, this is a really fun, very informative, very, very, very nice conversation with the super talented actor Diobia.

Speaker 2 I am so honored and so grateful that he came to do this interview. I hope you guys really, really enjoy it.

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Speaker 2 deobia welcome to cat on the loose it's such an honor to have you on the show thank you as you know i've been trying to get you here for a few years now i think it's been three years

Speaker 2 Because time goes by so fast, I'm not sure, but it has been three years. I did a,

Speaker 2 we were saying off-camera, I went to one of your acting workshops at the Soho house about three years ago and I fell in love even more than I already loved your work I fell in love with your workshop thank you because you're just really really fantastic at what you do other than being a great actor I don't want to call you you an acting coach because you're so much more than a coach but I fell in love with your acting workshop it was a life-changing experience to me oh wow thank you it really was.

Speaker 3 And I see that world, I mean that's why I don't call myself an acting coach.

Speaker 3 And for me, I come from it at a very different paradigmatic

Speaker 3 direction, journey. I think that the way that we've built the pedagogy or the teaching of acting in the West is very, it's never agreed with me.
And I never went to drama school.

Speaker 3 And so for me, I come from a tradition of storytellers in ancient africa those were called griots and the griots would be the uh storytellers of the clan and they would remember the lineage of everybody in the clan going back hundreds of years and they would tell the stories uh the biggest stories who was the greatest wrestler who was the most amazing farmer who you know was the wealthy all of these great stories of the wars and the battles and you know in a very kind of Homer is that homerotic as in Homer or is that homerotic but as like epic poetry in terms of homer you know way back before way before the greeks

Speaker 3 um there were these wonderful storytellers and i come out of that tradition and the way that i work is uh as somebody who is i have a good eye and a good ear and i don't believe acting can be taught um

Speaker 3 because I didn't go to school, but I do have a good eye and I know how to open someone's gate. I completely open it.
I know how to jailbreak through to that space

Speaker 3 where they feel a sense of, oh my god, oh wow, I'm somewhere else.

Speaker 3 And it also frees me. And so for me, I mean, whether you call that a creative dueler, like a creative midwife or something, I'm not sure.
But it's definitely not a coach.

Speaker 3 Also, and I say it's not a coach because I'm in the game. I have skin in the game.
And skin in the game for me means I'm also growing. I'm also evolving.

Speaker 3 I also have to come to the mat, as it were, you know, and submit and surrender. And so I'm not coming from a place in my workshops of I'm somebody who knows it all.

Speaker 3 It can pass through me to liberate others, and that liberation liberates me.

Speaker 2 I love that, and I completely agree with you. I personally don't think acting is something that you teach someone.
You either have that bug and that thing within you, the flame.

Speaker 2 But yeah, once, at least for me and all of my friends that I took, they all agree.

Speaker 2 There were actors there all kinds of levels and they all say like once they get in touch with you, like yes, you open the gates of wanting to act and put the emotions out there, it is definitely a life-changing experience.

Speaker 2 But let's start from the beginning for people that don't know you, but I know a lot of people we're going to talk about your fantastic body of work, but

Speaker 2 let's start. from the beginning of your career.

Speaker 2 Was acting something that you always wanted to do from the get-go? Did you always feel like that's it, that's my calling?

Speaker 3 I don't know if I knew then at such a young age that it was something that could be a calling, but I think it was something that I always felt

Speaker 3 did something for me that nothing else did. Like I loved words, and I always found it my facility for words just came quite easily, and I took it for granted.
And,

Speaker 3 you know, my mum was incredibly perceptive, and so from a very young age,

Speaker 3 from five, six, she was actually enrolling me in acting classes when I was about six, seven. And there was a place, there is a place in London called Drury Lane.

Speaker 3 And there was a kind of famous, I don't know if she probably still is around, but her name was Anna Scher.

Speaker 3 And my mum used to take me to her classes. And it turned out that a lot of those people who would go to those classes ended up being in movies like all these years later.
So she was quite reputable.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 I just, I just, something about it was very freeing. And then when I got into school,

Speaker 3 again, I attracted a really great, I'm going to say attracted because I wonder if these things are about attraction, you know. And this teacher in my drama school, hi, Mrs.
Brett.

Speaker 3 I hope she's still around or Miss Brett there. But she was great.
She just like took a hold of me. And

Speaker 3 under her tutelage, whenever it was drama, I was the one who was helping her produce the shows, direct them. If I wasn't the lead, then I was, you know, a great role in them.

Speaker 3 And so, straight away, I was given this. And then she said, look, across the street, there's a youth theater.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 I think you should go. I was about 13.
And I went, and I ended up going almost every night till I was 16. It

Speaker 3 changed my life. And then from that,

Speaker 3 I just felt straight away. I was about 14.
I said, this is what I'm going to do. But this was...

Speaker 3 It was all exceptional moments in my life, exceptional people as well, who came in and said, take this direction. And I took that direction.
And I was touring with this youth theatre company.

Speaker 3 We were touring the Czech Republic with plays at like 15 years old. touring Eastern Europe.
That's incredible.

Speaker 3 And I'm from this very working class place in London and I was going on tour with these and being introduced to these great writers at 13, 14, Chekhov.

Speaker 3 I'd already been in quite English with Shakespeare at school, but also African writers as growing up in the UK as a black person.

Speaker 3 It was great finding out, and it was there that I found out about people like James Baldwin, Wally Shoyenka, really great playwrights. And that all changed my life.

Speaker 3 So by the time I was like 16, I dropped out of school and went, Okay, I'm ready to become

Speaker 3 myself as that.

Speaker 2 That's amazing. And you worked in some incredible franchises, very, very, very famous,

Speaker 2 worldwide, successful box office franchises for people that don't know. Maybe now they're listening.

Speaker 2 You guys can go and Google his name and look, you're gonna see his face, you're gonna be like, Oh, yeah, I've seen him. And it's interesting because you look so different in each character.

Speaker 2 Yes, you are a chameleon. It's incredible.
You did Jumanji, you did Pirates of the Caribbean,

Speaker 2 you did Alien.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and of course, we're gonna talk about one of the most famous famous of them all game of thrones okay right yeah i mean you did all these fantastic franchises can you tell us a little bit how did you get into all of that from theater jumping into all all of these fantastic movies really auditioning really it starts by like just auditioning well it starts no it starts by doing all the things i said before which i think is really for me accrued that kind of

Speaker 3 what do you call it i'm not sure what that word is I had I had all of this stuff in escrow because I could walk out in the world and know that I was an actor I didn't go to drama school and I didn't go to university and I didn't go to college

Speaker 3 and I really credit those youth theatres that I went to that were in rundown areas you know poor areas run by really dedicated

Speaker 3 people at theater practitioners then

Speaker 3 instilling in me this this even though I had a lot of fear you know it wasn't like I was walking around going because I was you know auditioning with people who'd gone to the Royal Academy of Dramatic Art Juliet who'd come out of Cambridge you know who had been fast-tracked through private schools and all these things but I always knew that I was that I that I had a right to be there so when I

Speaker 3 when I left

Speaker 2 wait You said something so important, I'm going to interrupt you. I love that.
You said, I always knew I had had the right to be there.

Speaker 3 Yes.

Speaker 2 I love that.

Speaker 2 So you always had this confidence?

Speaker 3 I don't know if it didn't feel to me like confidence because I had a lot of fear. I remember when I got into the Royal Shakespeare Company, and that was a big thing because I had been doing theater,

Speaker 3 I'd been doing professional theatre, and I'd got it's called the sad card here, Screen Actors Guild, was very similar to the equity card then. I got into the union when I was like 18, quite early.

Speaker 3 and then I got into the Royal Shakespeare Company. And that was like everybody who was everybody that you see on TV now was there.
And I just felt like a fish out of water. I felt so scared.

Speaker 3 But something in me just knew that even as scared as I was,

Speaker 3 you know, I'd never studied Shakespeare, but I knew I could do it, right?

Speaker 3 Just knew it. And because I had a feel for it.

Speaker 3 But I knew, even though everybody was there and

Speaker 3 I felt you know, I was absolutely

Speaker 3 fearful

Speaker 3 Something in me just said just stick it out. It's hard, but stick it out and

Speaker 3 and in terms of stick out the fear and

Speaker 3 and

Speaker 3 Yeah, so so I started doing it in that world of getting into theater and it was from that theater that I you know casting directors come to shows and so they see you and then they ask could you know like him to audition for this or stuff like that that and so I would audition for

Speaker 3 you know and

Speaker 3 I also think in London at the time the UK at the time you know a lot of American shows would come out movies and stuff would come out to the UK to cast oh yeah oh yeah because one they I think they see British actors as cheaper oh really it's a different union you know like Screen Actors Guild you got to pay more you got to pay into their health you got to pay into their equity

Speaker 3 sorry they're not so good not such a good union you know but but but also I think that when you're kind of aligned in that space um then you kind of do attract those things and um

Speaker 3 but I to be honest I mean listen I love all that stuff I loved doing it and it you know to work with people like Baz Luhrmann and Tim Burton you know the Russo brothers and really great directors David Fincher

Speaker 3 but I never felt for me that I have really started working yet. For me, I haven't felt that.
It's only as I'm starting to create my work and write and

Speaker 3 also in a way step out of playing just archetypes. A lot of that work for me, I feel

Speaker 3 isn't very hard for me, you know, and I understand what the commercial market is, but I also felt that I gave myself

Speaker 3 because, you know, it's like climbing the ladder in one's career, but also I, it cost me at the time because I don't want to play archetypes anymore I know I can play archetypes you know and most of those shows I'm playing an archetype so if you got offered similar roles today

Speaker 2 yeah would you decline them

Speaker 3 I think I think where I am now is understanding that because then you know it was like oh my god yeah great I'm doing Game of Thrones. Oh my God, I'm doing, you know,

Speaker 2 like I said, let's be honest, that's very prestigious. Of course, yeah.
It's very commercial. Yeah, maybe it's not like a dream role in terms of the acting, the meat.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 2 But I mean, like, for a resume, that's like insanely prestigious.

Speaker 3 It is, it is. And so, there's the obviously, yes, there is.

Speaker 3 But I also think it's,

Speaker 3 I feel we live in a different, very different world now. You know, and I feel that, you know, my parents, they came from Nigeria to London, to the UK.

Speaker 3 They came out of the Biafran War.

Speaker 3 There was a war in Nigeria in the 60s and it was pretty horrendous. And my family are Igbo and the Igbos wanted to cede from Nigeria and create their own state called Biafra.

Speaker 3 And that caused

Speaker 3 just a horrible civil war. So my parents came out of this kind of situation and their mind was just, you know,

Speaker 3 just wanting to do well, wanting their children to do well. So I grew up with that.
I grew up with the sense of be grateful for what you get and just go like that.

Speaker 3 And I think the world's changed now and the world's changed a lot where one understands that, well, certainly for me, I should say, I understand that

Speaker 3 not just I have every right to be here, but I have every right to create my own stories. I didn't have that when I was coming out the gate.

Speaker 3 You know, I felt I had to fit into the stories of the status quo. I had to fit into those commercial stories.

Speaker 3 Not that I don't have stories that are not commercial, but I felt like I had to fit into a certain mold. Now I understand, oh, oh, you mean

Speaker 3 I can write my own stories,

Speaker 3 I can talk about the world from my point of view.

Speaker 3 I didn't have that then, and I have that now. And so in having that now, I think it's incumbent upon me to not play archetypes.

Speaker 3 You know, it's very easy, you know, and I think that's across the board in the industry. It's like your type, big, black, male presenting.
Here you are.

Speaker 3 You're the general you're the monosyllabic monotone you know blonde big boobs you're the cute dumb blonde whatever that is all those you know that's what the business is until you get to be a name and I realize oh no I gotta start saying no yeah I have to learn to start saying no and to create the yes I love that no and I hear you because I think stereotypes happen to on so many different people like even for me

Speaker 2 ever since I've been a little girl people say to me you don't look Latin. You don't look Latin.
You don't look Latin. You don't look Latin.
And I say, what do you mean?

Speaker 2 You know, what are we supposed to look like? Oh, you don't have black hair. You're not dark.
You don't have a big ass. I've lost so many roles.
To this day, I lose roles because I'm not a brunette.

Speaker 2 And I'm just as Latin as any Latin actress. So same, I keep fighting the stereotypes because it's not about like what we look like.

Speaker 2 So I completely understand how you feel, and I see that happening to so many different people from so many different backgrounds.

Speaker 2 And I love that you're saying that because I think, as storytellers, and we are other than actors, we love writing and we love telling stories, we got to keep fighting for it as much as, of course, let's be honest, sometimes we take commercial jobs because they pay really well

Speaker 2 and it gives you like fantastic credit or I on I am DB and blah blah blah blah blah.

Speaker 2 but when we are telling stories we also gotta fight for you know just to play something that we want to play for whatever reasons that it doesn't have to be the stereotype of what people want you to look like you know so I love that you're saying that and I want to talk about you do have a project that you wrote oh yes I did write a play yes I did I wrote a play

Speaker 3 yes for a theater called the Royal Court in London and yeah when I wrote that play and so when I said that I didn't know I could do that I did know I could do that but I wrote a play

Speaker 3 a little while ago now,

Speaker 3 and it got put on, it got produced, really great theatre. And

Speaker 3 I loved that experience.

Speaker 3 And what I did was

Speaker 3 I was quite spoilt. You know, the play got on very quickly.
I wrote it.

Speaker 3 The Royal Court is a prestigious theatre. And I was a very spoiled.
I was kind of like, well, why isn't this play transferring to the West End?

Speaker 3 The West End is like the British british version of broadway and uh and i was impatient and i was like talking to the artist the artistic director at the time why isn't my play transferring and i literally i got him to get me a meeting with a guy called george c wolfe who actually directed i think george c wolf directed american fiction and a bunch of things um

Speaker 3 and like he was running a theater in i forgot the theater he was running in new york but I met him and I was because I was like I wanted to get my play on and he met me you know and he was like yeah yeah but I think your play is very London and I don't think we can you know you know it was very encouraging

Speaker 3 but I but when I look back on all that now I just go gosh he was just so spoiled because I'd come out the gate as an actor and then you know my first movie was Alien 3 and then it was this and then it was it was always projects that were quite you know T really good TV stuff and so I just thought you know like I'm not waiting another seven eight years as a writer to get my you

Speaker 3 and so what I did was I ran back to acting you know I ran back to movies I think I did that and then I ran back and did some schlock movie with Wesley Snipes you know I ran back to do I don't know it was I think it's called seven it's on DVD now straight to DVD Guys, I never thought I would say this, but this Black Friday, instead of buying more stuff I don't need, I decided to invest in my sex life instead.

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Speaker 3 But that's kind of where, you know, and I forgive myself for it.

Speaker 3 But now I realize, you know, I kind of, and people then at the time were like, do you know how big it is to have a play on at the raw court?

Speaker 3 This is huge, your first play, it's getting produced, it's getting published.

Speaker 3 But in some ways, I didn't kind of know. Not that if things had come to me

Speaker 3 easily, they'd come quickly. They came very fast as it was.

Speaker 3 Very, very fast. And so it's only now that now that I'm writing and I'm writing a lot now that I understand,

Speaker 3 you know, because I did, I did, I had my glut, you know, I did the movies and still am, you know, but, you know, I've been working with big names, so-called big, you know, I can't stand that term, big names, you know, it's like, we're all big names, right?

Speaker 3 But in terms of in the industry and realizing, oh, to be honest with you, is that all there is?

Speaker 3 And often when you're working at the highest level, it's those people who are, I wouldn't say the most humble, but the most focused on the work, not the ego.

Speaker 3 You know, so it's projects like Game of Thrones and stuff, where you're working with real artisans. You know, everyone's brilliant.
Everyone's really great at what they do, the costume, the props.

Speaker 3 You know,

Speaker 3 it's not about this. It's just about creating something really...
And that's where I went, oh, but that's who I am.

Speaker 2 Teamwork, right?

Speaker 3 Teamwork, but also

Speaker 3 it's not just about delivering something to get a paycheck or to get your, like, you're really connected to it

Speaker 3 and it's coming from somewhere. You know, you want to tell stories.
And I realized, oh my God, that's who I am. So why aren't I telling my own stories?

Speaker 3 And then I had to get over the fact of going, it doesn't matter what platform it's on. It doesn't matter if it's not at the most prestigious theater or it's not the biggest budget.

Speaker 3 You know, if it's just 200 and if it's just a million or whatever, it doesn't matter. It's like, what stories have you got to tell? Because you have to tell them.

Speaker 3 And that really got me back writing that really got me to start pedestalizing probably not the right word put it's not probably not a word but putting on a pedestal the kind of big projects that I'd done because I saw that that

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Why do you think it's called Table One?

Speaker 2 Because it's the number one game in town, baby.

Speaker 2 I love that and I completely agree, especially when it comes to theater because theater is like so tough it's a million times harder than than making movies so congratulations i think that's fantastic but i gotta ask you because when i told you know my audience and so many of my friends that i was gonna interview people want to know how was your experience working on game of thrones did you have fun i did i did you did two seasons right yeah two seasons i mean

Speaker 3 again for me it was just checking in checking out you know

Speaker 3 you know but i did have fun i did have fun um where did you guys shoot in europe right yeah the cro Croatia Spain which was amazing really nice place oh yeah beautiful beautiful there was a beautiful castle somewhere in Spain I think Seville just stunning just magical and

Speaker 3 yeah it was it was it was a it was a really fun experience but you know it also kind of

Speaker 3 I mean, I don't like, I don't want to burst people's bubbles, but you see, you see things as well, which are like, really? Like, I remember being with a couple of actors and

Speaker 3 you know,

Speaker 3 it was just weird. Suddenly you go into a hotel and everyone's screaming and I was like, but I've walked into hotels before.

Speaker 3 No one suddenly everyone's just screaming at you, but they're screaming at you because of what they project onto you.

Speaker 2 You mean fans?

Speaker 3 Well, like, yeah, a day before, nobody was screaming at me when I was, and suddenly it got announced or something, and then everyone started screaming. And then I found that weird.
I did. Really?

Speaker 3 I did. Yeah, I did because I just felt like

Speaker 3 that's all about projection. Because I'm the same person.

Speaker 3 Oh, of course. I mean,

Speaker 2 the series, they have like

Speaker 2 so many fans and they see that you're shooting there and everything, they fall in love with you and they fall in love with the character, of course.

Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah, but fame,

Speaker 3 a lot of it is projection.

Speaker 2 I felt. Oh, for sure.

Speaker 2 But you never had this happen to you ever before in anything else that you worked on?

Speaker 3 I think

Speaker 3 that was another level. I think that was another level.
That was,

Speaker 3 yeah, I think because the show was such a juggernaut. Yeah.
And

Speaker 3 that was like another level of walking to places and seeing people staked out. I mean, I did do a film.
I did a Guy Ritchie movie a few years ago and I got papped.

Speaker 3 And then I saw myself in the Daily Mail. And that was really weird.
That was like... I was just walking into a trailer.
And it was like, Deobia Opere walks into his, like, I was just like.

Speaker 2 They took a picture of you.

Speaker 3 Yeah. And and then it was like a whole page or half a page.

Speaker 2 And how do you feel about that? It doesn't,

Speaker 2 it doesn't affect you.

Speaker 3 It's smoke and mirrors. It's the emperor with no clothes.
I agree. You know, it's not, it's, it, it, it, it, it has,

Speaker 3 for me, the value that it has is attention. Yeah.
That's the value it has.

Speaker 3 And that's where it's great when attention, that attention meets opportunity and there's something to say and a story to tell or something to offer.

Speaker 3 I think that's wonderful and it's a beautiful confluence of

Speaker 3 fame

Speaker 3 or name acclaim and the work. So in that sense, it does.
It has great value.

Speaker 3 And I do think that there is something to do with cultivating, even though we live in a 24-7

Speaker 3 social media world, there is something interesting about cultivating a sense of enigma and mystery about oneself. But whether who you are, are, I don't think you have to tell everything.

Speaker 3 And I don't think everything has to be known.

Speaker 3 And, you know, there is something attractive about, you know,

Speaker 2 I completely agree with you. I think it's a big part of our jobs that we have to use social media and be in the media.
And like you said,

Speaker 2 usually the more attention you get,

Speaker 2 you get a bigger audience and it could lead to jobs. And that's our job as communicators.
But yeah, you can always keep something private and still have a private life and

Speaker 2 it's a game, right? We have to juggle and try to figure out how to.

Speaker 3 Yeah, but it's also not just about keeping it private and private life. For me, it's also about that

Speaker 3 the

Speaker 3 embers,

Speaker 3 the ingredients of a story,

Speaker 3 it's important sometimes to keep things in the dark because things grow very powerfully in the dark.

Speaker 3 And this, and as much as I, and you know, it's a paradox too, because I think transparency is wonderful.

Speaker 3 And I think that, you know, the transparency that I've seen online has been very liberating because you can find your community and your community can grow you, you know, especially when it comes to the LGBTQ community.

Speaker 3 You can find people, you go, oh, okay, great. And we are aligned politically.
And we, oh, because that was very hard

Speaker 3 pre-social media. So transparency and that stuff is great.
But also, the other is true, too, is that you can grow things very powerfully in the dark. And the darkness is important.

Speaker 3 And this, like I read on sometimes online, you know, there's this whole thing about, oh, that's so wholesome, that's so wholesome. But that's the whole thing is that is that...

Speaker 3 For me, stories and making great stories, you don't want it to be wholesome. Because it's not about being wholesome.

Speaker 3 Right?

Speaker 3 It's about everything it's about the the things that we term bad things that we term ugly it's it's about nuance it's about subtlety and sometimes all of that gets lost when everything is here i am ba-you know every day and sometimes it's like like so cheap the nuance the the

Speaker 3 the quiet kind of you know multi-dimensionality of what it means to be a being a living being in the world doesn't mean that you can paint everything by colors and say this is this emotion and that's that.

Speaker 3 There's contradiction. Yes, there's things that will not agree with you.

Speaker 3 Do you understand? There's madness, there's depression, there's this, there's anger, you know, there's joy, there's sex, there's do you get what I'm saying?

Speaker 3 Oh my god, yeah, and I feel like social media is all about defanging that. Yeah, let me defang, let me wrap everything up into this kind of high genic, bleached, sterile kind of.

Speaker 3 It's like, that's that's that's

Speaker 3 I can't live in that world.

Speaker 2 I love that.

Speaker 2 I want to touch on a subject that is a lot more personal to you, but it's also something that I loved that you put out there during your workshop, and I think it's so important.

Speaker 2 We were obviously an acting workshop, but you mentioned and you told your story, which is very public, that many years ago, I forgot the year, you came out and you told the the world that you're a very proud gay man and you told the story and I that's the part of the story that really touched me because I love people that I think it's one of the biggest lessons that we all learn is like to be our authentic selves yeah because so many times it's hard like say this is who I am this is what makes me happy and and when you do that like it's a whole other world right and you told the story in the class and it made me very emotional

Speaker 2 that one day, and of course, I don't want to put words in your mouth, and you can tell the story again if you feel like it, because it's such a beautiful story.

Speaker 2 How you decided, like, you know what, I'm a man, and you're, by the way, guys, if you don't know him, please go to his social media, go to my social media channels, look at the videos, because you're a very handsome man.

Speaker 2 You're huge, you're six foot six, six foot five, right?

Speaker 2 You're very tall, very good-looking, a very impressive image when you walk by. And one day you decided, you said, you know what, I'm going to wear a skirt because that's what I love.

Speaker 2 I'm gonna wear whatever makes me happy.

Speaker 3 Yeah,

Speaker 3 I've changed a lot and evolved a lot since then, and I'm constantly evolving. And I think sometimes when,

Speaker 3 not sometimes, I think that that's what being alive is, and often that's what opening oneself up is. And as I am continually opening myself up, I identify as non-binary, I don't identify as a gay man,

Speaker 3 because

Speaker 3 and and that was the that was the

Speaker 3 the George Floyd kind of time when that happened and those race riots what was the catalyst for me was walking on the street in Los Angeles saying black lives matter and then as I said it I could feel oh yes but your life doesn't matter because you're here hiding

Speaker 3 and you're here not being honest about who you are and then for me

Speaker 3 that meant coming out as a gay man because that was what was available to me and as I've stood more and more in the river because I wouldn't for me anymore call it about authenticity but for the

Speaker 3 the river of

Speaker 3 being alive of being a living being and understanding that

Speaker 3 we live in a culture we live in a paradigm where we have to be identified by the physical. The physical identifies you.
That makes you white. That makes you black.
That makes you gay.

Speaker 3 And to me, I understand how that is just

Speaker 3 a construction and that my identity isn't within me. That for me identity is out is out there and it's constantly changing.
And

Speaker 3 in that, I also wouldn't have understood

Speaker 3 as I've become so much more open

Speaker 3 that for me gender is a construct it's constructed and so

Speaker 3 for me also as I've delved more into who I am in terms of ancestrally or where I've come from ancestrally you know in terms of indigeneity

Speaker 3 and I don't mean for me and because if you know about Africa it's incredibly especially Ghana Nigeria and those countries that have criminalized LGBTQ rights it's incredibly patriarchal

Speaker 3 but I mean, post-colonial, pre-colonial Africa.

Speaker 3 Certainly, in my

Speaker 3 mother's people, in their culture, the Igbos, there was no word for gender. My mom constantly used to,

Speaker 3 I have three brothers. She constantly would move between he and she.
Constantly. Where is she? Where is she?

Speaker 3 Tell her dinner's ready.

Speaker 3 There was no, because, because, you know, well, firstly, the language that Igbos speak was rewritten by a missionary so so that's so the language that they speak has actually been anglicized the Igbo language but pre-that I think Igbo and Yoruba are two different kind of ethnicities had no word for for gender and and gender wasn't chosen at birth it it was it was it was something that happened in

Speaker 3 your maturity in your adolescence

Speaker 3 this is this is pre-colonial

Speaker 3 And so that's all in me. But also an understanding that when I was coming out as an actor, I knew that this was racial capital.

Speaker 3 I knew that I could walk into a room and blow people away with, yo, motherfucker. You know, I knew I could do all those voices.
I knew I could do that. I knew I could play that.

Speaker 3 And so I thought, oh, if I'm myself,

Speaker 3 because I live in a very, I didn't have these words, but I understand it now, because I feel like we live in a very mediocre culture.

Speaker 3 We look at people and go, oh, you're this and we call you flamboyant and there therefore you can only play that role which is bullshit right or oh you you know you sleep with men therefore you could never be convincing enough on the all that crap and so I played that I was playing that role in my life you know not to my friends

Speaker 3 but when it came to casting directors and I had certain agents at the time who would say take off this when you go in the room and make sure yeah who would go make sure you would try to control you and I understood the way you're dressed and the way you

Speaker 2 portrayed yourself.

Speaker 3 I understood it because, in a way, you do have to cut the garment according to the cloth.

Speaker 3 Not that

Speaker 3 I would walk into the room completely wearing if I'm going for a certain role, but

Speaker 3 so I understood that, but also it kind of bled into an understanding for the actor. You know, a lot of actors are in the closet, not just a lot of actors.
Oh my god, I know.

Speaker 3 And I understand it because

Speaker 3 there's so many.

Speaker 2 So many more than anybody. And it kills me, like, this culture of hiding behind.

Speaker 2 Like not being able to be yourself. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 Can I just finish off that? Of course, please.

Speaker 3 That for me, that was the stepping stone to be able to say,

Speaker 3 I don't want to play who I am in these movies or on TV in life. I've paid my dues, right? I can transform into, you know, I have, as it's called, range, right?

Speaker 3 I can play.

Speaker 3 That's not a problem for me so if i show up like this um that's that's down for me it was me telling that's down to them that's down to that culture and um but but but also the reason why i did and have stopped calling myself a gay even though i love the gay community and you know um because i also found that it was very much not aligned with with who I am.

Speaker 3 Gay,

Speaker 3 the kind of, for me, gay and heterosexual they're both sides of the same coin of the same coin and there's a kind of whether it's heteronormativity or homonormativity there's this alliance between the two

Speaker 3 that is that play kind of

Speaker 3 not sure what I'm trying to say but but I didn't find freedom in that I didn't find freedom in that and I think there's something more bold and something more not as

Speaker 3 it's certainly not

Speaker 3 for me where I stand now is

Speaker 3 I'm walking into a space and a place where I get to be in the world and I get to discover this being that yes someone may turn me whatever gender doesn't doesn't worry me I can use every single kind of pronoun I prefer cupcake I prefer I prefer beautiful gorgeous all those things right don't call me man don't call me bro but but I just think that the world is changing because we're all waking up

Speaker 3 and realizing there are so many, you know, we live in this world where everything

Speaker 3 is Called with a heterosexual name, your uncle, your aunt,

Speaker 3 and everything's on this linear timeline. And I disagree with that.
You know, I disagree with that.

Speaker 2 I do too. But

Speaker 2 I always feel every time I see you and every time on your workshops, you always read something really beautiful, like you pick something, like a poem, or you say something out of your mind that I you always send a message of acceptance.

Speaker 2 And to me, that's like the like you have such a beautiful soul.

Speaker 2 Like it doesn't matter, like you said, it shouldn't matter what somebody, whatever people want to call themselves, but it's always about like accepting who you are and being your most authentic self.

Speaker 2 And I think this is why.

Speaker 3 But I feel, I actually feel we're more than one self. I feel that we change.
Yeah, and I think authenticity,

Speaker 3 I think there's authenticity, but there's also being alive. And I think there are two different things.

Speaker 3 I think,

Speaker 3 for instance,

Speaker 3 I'm reading this great philosopher with great. I mean, he probably wouldn't call himself great.
I think he's brilliant. His names are Chile Mbembe

Speaker 3 and

Speaker 3 Cameroonian. And he's brilliant.
And he talks about, I forgot the book, Out of the Dark. Recommend that book, Out of the Dark.

Speaker 3 And he talks about how the ancient Africans, they didn't seek identity in their physicality.

Speaker 3 They sought relationality, relationality to the world. Everything had consciousness.
This is years before quantum physics. Everything had consciousness.
So it was a conversation.

Speaker 3 You were in a conversation with the cosmos. Your being was ever-changing.
It was in a conversation with that rock, with that bark, with that tree.

Speaker 3 You know, they knew that everything, now we know that trees are social. Now we know that the rhizomes or rhizomes, R-H-I-Z-O-M-E-S, you know, the roots that go right down

Speaker 3 into the earth, are communicating with their cousins, are communicating with other family trees, literally, and feeding certain trees water that are going thirsty, that are of the same lineage.

Speaker 3 It's fascinating. But these ancient indigenous people knew all that.
And so their sense of being in the world was about their relationality with the world.

Speaker 3 And I feel that we've reduced everything down to, oh, you're this, oh, you're wearing a skirt, So you're this.

Speaker 3 These ridiculous, reductive, infantile terms to describe this incredibly mysterious, enigmatic journey that we're on called life. We reduce it down to the most ridiculous.
Do you get what I'm saying?

Speaker 3 Yes. Definitions.
If you walk like this, if you move like this, if you sound like that, you're this. Yeah.
And I really, really reject that. I love that.
That's really nice.

Speaker 2 What's next for you?

Speaker 3 What's next for me?

Speaker 2 Are you here? Are you based here now? Are you based in London? Are you back and forth?

Speaker 3 Back and forth. I mean, I am here.

Speaker 3 I love LA. You know, LA is really good.
LA loves you.

Speaker 3 LA loves you, too.

Speaker 3 You know, LA's been, LA is great. I feel like, you know, there's a real sense here.

Speaker 3 I mean, people down LA, but I find that California, there is an air where you get to really explore and open your mind. You know, California's is really open to that.

Speaker 3 And I've loved that. And the sun.
Yes.

Speaker 2 Yes. Can't beat this weather.

Speaker 3 The weather. The weather.

Speaker 3 I guess well, when I go.

Speaker 2 I'm not going to say anything about the weather in London.

Speaker 3 I promise.

Speaker 3 Where are you, babe?

Speaker 3 Here. Okay.
Yeah, I live right here in Beverly Hills. Oh, brilliant.
I'm on LA.

Speaker 2 I'm in California girls.

Speaker 3 Yes. Okay.

Speaker 3 Do you love it?

Speaker 2 I love it. Yes.
I cannot, yeah, that's home.

Speaker 2 I love traveling, but yeah, this is home. Wow.
So you're hanging out. So if somebody wants to know, because like I said, I'm a huge, huge, huge fan of your workshops.

Speaker 2 I think if anybody is in the LA, because that's where you do the workshops.

Speaker 3 Well, I'm kind of also mobile, so I'll be spending some time in London. I'm getting, I've

Speaker 3 got some funding and I'm getting more for

Speaker 3 a film project called I'm Putting Outfit. As you can tell, I'm tentative because I prefer to announce it in the right way.

Speaker 3 But yeah, that's yes,

Speaker 3 that's happening. And

Speaker 3 so, yeah, London, Los Angeles.

Speaker 2 So, if people want to find you and figure out, like, if you have any workshops coming up, how do they find you?

Speaker 3 Instagram.

Speaker 3 Instagram, right now.

Speaker 2 Okay, I'm going to put his links

Speaker 2 on the link of this episode and also on my website, catontheloose.com, so you guys can find him.

Speaker 2 And if you happen to be lucky enough to be in LA or London, I highly, highly recommend you go do one of his workshops because, like I said, to me, it was like just your energy and your message and just being around you.

Speaker 2 It's like, to me, it was life-changing. I love you.
I adore you. It's such an honor to have you.
Thank you so much for doing this.

Speaker 2 And I wish you all the success in the world. Congratulations on everything you do.
You are absolutely incredible. Thank you.
Ethiopia, we did this finally, right?

Speaker 2 It only took me three years to get it really three years. I think so.
Like with this COVID chaos, like time flies by.

Speaker 2 I remember, no, it was literally like the soul house had just reopened.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 I don't even know. It was like,

Speaker 2 I think it was like almost, it was like just about, I think it was the first workshop you did just like when they reopened. So I'm gonna

Speaker 3 guess like around three years. Wow.

Speaker 2 So I hope it doesn't take another three years to get you back.

Speaker 2 Thank you so much. It was such an honor.
You are incredible. Thank you.
I like, you know how they say in Hollywood, I'll see you at the Oscars.

Speaker 2 I'm sure one of these days you're going to win one.

Speaker 3 I feel that. Yeah, I feel it.
I feel it.

Speaker 2 I think it's in your destiny. Thank you.
Thank you so much. You're incredible.
Thank you so much. And I'll see you guys very soon, Diobia Opere.

Speaker 3 Take care.

Speaker 2 And before I let you go, you guys that know me know that I am a huge supporter of small businesses and small brands.

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