ACTOR DEOBIA OPAREI

My guest this week, British-born Nigerian actor Diobia O'Pare has starred in some iconic shows such as HBO's Game of Thrones, Netflix's Sex Education, and Marvel's Loki, and also some cinematic blockbusters such as Pirates of the Caribbean, Jumanji, and Guy Ritchie's thriller Wrath of Men. Diobia began his career in theater at the Royal Shakespeare Company and is a published Royal Court theater playwright.
I met him a few years ago at the Soho house when I was doing an actor's workshop. And I fell in love with his work and his energy.
And I was trying to get him on the show for the past three years. And I am so, so happy that he was visiting LA because he goes back and forth between London and LA.
And he was in LA and he finally said yes and found a little time in his schedule.

And we had such an incredibly fun, nice conversation.

Diobia is absolutely amazing.

And whether you're an actor or not,

whether you're interested in becoming an actor or not,

this is a really fun, very informative,

very, very, very nice conversation

with the super talented actor Diobia. I am so honored and so grateful that he came to do this interview.
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212-682-6620 for Madison and for greenwich 212-374-0150 de obia welcome to cat on the loose it's such an honor to have you on the show thank you as you know i've been trying to get you here for a few years now i think it's been three years because time goes by so fast i'm not sure but i think it's been three years i did a um we were saying off camera i went to one of your acting workshops at the soul house about three years ago and i fell in love even more than i already loved your work i fell in love with your workshop thank you because you're just really really at what you do. Other than being a great actor, I don't want to call you an acting coach because you're so much more than a coach, but I fell in love with your acting workshop.
It was a life-changing experience to me. Oh, wow.
Thank you. It really was.
And I see that world. I mean, that's why I don't call myself an acting coach.

And for me, I come from it at a very different paradigmatic direction, journey.

I think that the way that we've built the pedagogy or the teaching of acting in the West is very...

It's never agreed with me and I never went to drama school. And so for me, I come from a tradition of storytellers in ancient Africa.
Those were called griots and the griots would be the storytellers of the clan and they would remember the lineage of everybody in the clan going back hundreds of years. And they tell the stories The biggest stories who was the greatest wrestler who was the most amazing farmer who you know was the wealthy all of these great stories of the wars and the battles and you know in a very kind of Homer is a homoerotic as in Homer or is that homoerotic but as as epic poetry in terms of homo you know way back before way before the greeks there were these wonderful stories and i come out of that tradition and the way that i work is uh as somebody who is i have a good eye and a good ear and i don't believe acting can be taught um because i i didn't go to school but i do have a good eye and i know how to open someone's gate i know how to jailbreak through to that space where they feel a sense of oh my god oh wow i'm i'm somewhere else you know and uh and it also frees me and so for me i mean whether you call that a creative doula like a midwife or something, I'm not sure.
But it's definitely not a coach. Also, when I say it's not coach, because I'm in the game.
I have skin in the game. And skin in the game for me means I'm also growing.
I'm also evolving. I also have to come to the mat, as it were, you know, and submit and surrender.
and so I'm not coming from a place in my workshops of i'm somebody who knows it all uh that it can pass through me to liberate others and that liberation liberates me i love that and i completely agree with you i personally don't think acting is something that you teach someone you either have that bug and that thing within you the flame but yeah once at least for me and all my friends that i took they all agree of there were actors there all kinds of levels and they all say like once they get in touch with you like yes you open the gates of wanting to act and put the emotions out there it is definitely a life-changing experience but let's start from the beginning for people that don't know you yeah but I know a lot of we're gonna talk about your fantastic body of work but uh let's start from the beginning of your career it was acting something that you always wanted to do from the get-go did you always feel like that's it that's my calling I don't know if I knew then at such a young age that it was something that could be a

calling, but I think it was something that I always felt did something for me that nothing else did. Like I loved words and I always found it, my facility for words just came quite easily and I took it for granted.
And, you know, my mom was incredibly perceptive. And so from a very young age, five, six, she was actually enrolling me in acting classes when I was about six, seven.
And there was a place, there is a place in London called Drury Lane. And there was a kind of famous, I don't know if she's probably still is around, but her name was Anna Schur.
And my mom used to take me to her classes. And it turned out that a lot of those people who would go to those classes ended up being in movies like all these years later.
So she was quite reputable. And I just, I just, something about it was very freeing.
And then when I got into school, again, I attracted a really great, I'm going to say I attracted because I wonder if these things are about attraction, you know. And this teacher in my drama school, hi, Mrs.
Brett, I hope she's still around, or Miss Brett there. But she was great.
She just like took a hold of me. And under her tutelage, whenever it was drama, I was the one who was helping her produce the shows, direct them.
If I wasn't the lead, then I was, you know, a great role in them. And so straight away I was given this.
And then she said, look, across the street, there's a youth theater and I think you should go. I was about 13 and I went and I ended up going almost every night till I was 16.
was um changed my life and then from that I I I just felt straight away I was about 14 I said this is what I'm going to do but this was it was all exceptional moments in my life exceptional people as well who came in and said take this direction and I took direction. And I was touring with this youth theatre company.

We were touring the Czech Republic with plays at like 15 years old,

touring Eastern Europe.

That's incredible.

And I'm from this very working class place in London,

and I was going on tour with these

and being introduced to these great writers at 13, 14, Chekhov.

And I'd already been quite into Shakespeare at school, but also African writers as growing up in the UK as a black person. It was great finding out.
And it was there that I found out by people like James Baldwin, Waleh Shoyanka, really great playwrights. And that all changed my life.
So by the time I was like 16, I dropped out of school and went, okay, I'm ready to become an actor. Yeah, I just saw myself as that.
That's amazing. And you worked in some incredible franchises.
Very, very, very famous, worldwide, successful box office franchises for people that don't know. Maybe now they're listening.
You guys can go his name and look you're gonna see his face you're gonna be like oh yeah i've seen him and it's interesting because you look so different in each character yeah you are a chameleon it's incredible you did jumanji yeah you did pirates of the caribbean you did alien yeah and of course we're gonna talk about one of the most famous of them all Game of Thrones okay yeah I mean you did all this fantastic franchises can you tell us a little bit how did you get into all of that from theater jumping into all all of these fantastic movies really auditioning really it starts by like just auditioning well it starts no it starts by doing all the things i said before which i think is really for me accrued that kind of um what do you call it i'm not sure what that word is i had i had all of this stuff in escrow because i could walk out in the world and know that I was not I didn't go to drama school and I didn't go to university and I didn't go to college and I really credit those youth theatres that I went to that were in rundown areas you know poor areas run by really dedicated people theatre practitioners then instilling in me this, even though I had a lot of fear, you know, it wasn't like I was walking around going, because I was, you know, auditioning with people who'd gone to the Royal Academy of Germanic Art, Juilliard, who'd come out of Cambridge, you know, who had been fast-tracked through private schools and all these things but I always knew that I was that I had a right to be there so when I

when I left wait you said something so important I'm gonna interrupt you I love

that you said I always knew I had the right to be there yes I love that so you

always had this confidence I don't know if it didn't feel to me like confidence

Thank you. right to be there yes I love that so you always had this confidence I don't know if it didn't feel to me like confidence because I had a lot of fear I remember when I got into the Royal Shakespeare Company and that was a big thing because I had been doing theater I'd been doing professional theater and I'd got it's called the SAG card here Screen Screen Actors Guild, was very similar to the equity card then.

I got into the union when I was like 18, quite early.

And then I got into the Royal Shakespeare Company.

And that was like everybody who was everybody that you see on TV now was there.

And I just felt like a fish out of war.

I felt so scared. But something in me just knew that as scared as I was, you know, I'd never studied Shakespeare, but I knew I could do it, right? Just knew it because I had a feel for it.
But I knew, even though everybody was there and I felt, you know, I was absolutely fearful, something in me just said, just just stick it out it's hard but stick it out and um and in terms of stick out the fear and uh and uh yeah so so I started doing in that world of getting into theater and it was from that theater that I you know casting directors come to shows and so they see you and then they ask, you know, would you like him to audition for this or stuff like that? And so I would audition for, you know. And I also think in London at the time, in the UK at the time, you know, a lot of American shows would come out, movies and stuff would come out to the UK to cast.
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, because one, I think they see British actors as cheaper.
Oh, really? Because it's a different union. You know, like Screen Actors Guild, you've got to pay more, you've got to pay into their health, you've got to pay into their...
Equity, sorry, they're not so good. Not so much.
Not such a good union, you know. But also I think that when you're kind of aligned in that space, then you kind of do attract those things.
But to be honest, I mean, I love all that stuff. I loved doing it and to work with people like Baz Luhrmann and Tim Burton, the Russo brothers and really great directors, David Fincher.
But I never felt for me that I have really started working yet. For me, I haven't felt that.
It's only as I'm starting to create my work and write and also, in a way, step out of playing just archetypes. A lot of that work for me, I feel, isn't very hard for me.
And I understand understand what the commercial market is but I also felt that I gave myself because you know it's like climbing the ladder in one's career but also I it cost me at the time because I don't want to play archetypes anymore I know I can play archetypes you know and know. And most of those shows, I'm playing an archetype.
So if you got offered similar roles today, would you decline them? I think where I am now is understanding that. Because then, you know, it was like, oh, my God, yeah, great.
I'm doing Game of Thrones. Oh, my God, I'm doing, you know, aliens.
Like you said, let's be honest. let's be honest that's very prestigious of course yeah it's very commercial yeah maybe it's not like a dream role in terms of the acting the meat but I mean like for a resume that's like insanely prestigious it is it is and so there's obviously yes there is but I also think it's I feel we live in a very different world now you know and I feel that you know my parents they came from Nigeria to London to the UK they came out of the Biafran war there was a war in Nigeria in the 60s and it was pretty horrendous and my family are Ibo and the Ibo's wanted to seed from Nigeria and create their own state called Biafra and that caused just a horrible civil war.
So my parents came out of this kind of situation and their mind was just you know just wanting to do well, wanting their children to do well so i grew up with that i grew up with the sense of be grateful for what you get and just go like that and i think the world's changed now and the world's changed a lot where one understands that well certainly for me i should say i i understand that not just i have every right to be here but I have every right to create my own stories. I didn't have that when I was coming out the gate.
You know, I felt I had to fit into the stories of the status quo. I had to fit into those commercial stories.
Not that I don't have stories that are not commercial, but I felt like I had to fit into a certain mold. Now I understand, oh, oh, you mean I can write my own stories? I can talk about the world from my point of view.
I didn't have that then, and I have that now. And so in having that now, I think it's incumbent upon me to not play archetypes.
You know, it's very easy. And I think that's across the board in the industry.
It's like your type, big, black, male presenting. Here you are.
You're the general. You're the monosyllabic, monotone, you know, blonde, big boobs.
You're the cute, dumb blonde, whatever that is. All those, you know, that's what the business is.
Until you get to be a name. And I realize, oh, no, I got to start saying no.
I have to learn to start saying no and to create the yes I love that no and I hear you because I think stereotypes happen to on so many different people like even for me yeah ever since I've been a little girl people say to me you don't look Latin you don't look Latin you don't look Latin you don't look Latin and I said what do you mean you know how are what are we supposed to look like oh you don't have black hair you're not dark you don't have a big ass i've lost so many roles to this day i lose roles because i'm not a brunette and i'm just as latin as any latin actress so i same i keep fighting the stereotypes because it's not about what we look like. Yes.
So I completely understand how you feel. And I see that happening to so many different people from so many different backgrounds.
And I love that you're saying that because I think as storytellers, and we are other than actors, we love we love telling so we gotta keep fighting for it as much as of course let's be honest sometimes we take commercial jobs because they pay really well of course and it gives you like fantastic credit or i am db and and blah blah blah blah but when we are telling so we also gotta fight for you know just to play something that we want to play for whatever reasons that it doesn't have to be the stereotype of what people want you to look like, you know.

So I love that you're saying that.

And I want to talk about, you do have a project that you wrote.

Oh, yes, I did write a play.

Yes, I did.

I wrote a play.

Yes, for a theater called The Royal Court in London.

And yeah, I wrote that play. And so when I said that I didn't know I could do that, I did know I could do that.
But I wrote a play a little while ago now and it got put on, it got produced, really great theatre. And I loved that experience.
And what I did was, I was quite spoiled. You know, the play got on very quickly.
I wrote it. The Royal Court is a prestigious theatre.
And I was very spoiled. I was kind of like, well, why isn't this play transferring to the West End? The West End is like the British version of Broadway.
And I was impatient. And I was like talking to the the artistic director at the time why isn't my play transferring and I literally I got him to get me a meeting with a guy called George C Wolfe who actually directed I think George C Wolfe directed American fiction and a bunch of things um and like he was running a theater in I forgot the theater he was running in New York but I met him him because I was like, I wanted to get my play on.
And he met me, you know, and he was like, yeah, yeah, but I think your play's very London and I don't think we can, you know, you know, he was very encouraging. But when I look back on all that now, I just go, God, you were just so spoiled because I'd come out the gate as an actor and then, you know, my first movie was Alien 3 and then it was this and then it was always projects that were quite, you know, really good TV stuff.
And so I just thought, you know, like I'm not waiting another seven, eight years as a writer to get my, you know. And so what I did was I ran back to acting.
You know, I ran back to movies. I think I did that.
And then I ran back and did some schlock movie with Wesley Snipes. You know, I ran back to do, I think it's called Seven.
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But that's kind of where, you know, and I forgive myself for it. But now I realize, you know, I kind of, and people then at the time were like, do you know how big it is to have a play on at the Royal Court? This is huge, your first play, it's getting produced, it's getting published.
But in some ways, I didn't kind of know. Not that if things had come to me easily that come quickly they came very fast very very fast and so it's only now that

now I'm that I'm writing and I'm writing a lot now that I understand you know

because I did I did I had my glut you know I did the movies I still am you

know but you know I've been working with big names so-called big you know, I did the movies, and still am, you know,

but, you know, I've been working with big names,

so-called big, you know, I can't stand that term,

big names, you know, it's like, we're all big names, right?

But in terms of in the industry,

and realising, oh, to be honest with you,

is that all there is?

Is that, and often when you're working at the highest level, it's those people who are, I wouldn't say the most humble, but the most focused on the work, not the ego. So it's projects like Game of Thrones where you're working with real artisans.
Everyone's brilliant. Everyone's really great at what they do, the costume, the props.
It's not about this. It's just about creating something really.
And that's where I went, oh, but that's who I am. Teamwork, right? Teamwork, but also it's not about this it's just about creating something really and that's where I went oh but that's who I am teamwork right teamwork but also it's it's it's not just about delivering something to get a paycheck or to get your like you're really connected to it and and and it's coming from somewhere you know you want to tell stories and I realized oh my god that's who I am so why aren't I telling my own stories and then I had to get over the fact of going it doesn't matter what platform it's on it doesn't matter if if it's not at the most prestigious theater or it's not the biggest budget you know if it's just 200 and if it's just a million or whatever it doesn't matter it's like what stories have you got to tell because you have to tell them and that really got me back writing that really got me to start pedestalizing probably not the right word but it's not probably the other word but putting on a pedestal the kind of big projects that I'd done because I saw that that you know at the heart of it it's all about telling stories let's take a really quick break and talk about very easy quick fix for a problem that a lot of us have, super tired eyes.
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It's a million times harder than than making movies. So congratulations.
I think that's fantastic. But I got to ask you, because when I told, you know, my audience and so many of my friends that I was going to interview, people want to know, how was your experience working on Game of Thrones? Did you have fun? I did.
I did. You did two seasons, right? Yeah, two seasons.
I mean, again, for me, it was just checking in, checking out, you know, you know, but I did have fun. I did have fun.
Where did you guys shoot? In Europe, right? Yeah, Croatia, Spain, which was amazing. Pretty nice places.
Oh, yeah, beautiful. Beautiful.
There was a beautiful castle somewhere in Spain, I think Seville. Just stunning.
Just stunning. And, yeah, it was a really fun experience.
But, you know, it also kind of, I mean, I don't want to burst people's bubbles, but you see things as well which are like, really? Like, I remember being with a couple of actors and you know it was just weird suddenly you go into a hotel and everyone's screaming and I was like but I've walked into hotels before suddenly everyone's just screaming at you but they're screaming at you because of what they project onto you you mean fans well like yeah a day before nobody was screaming at me when I was and suddenly it got announced or something and then everyone started screaming and then I found that weird. I did.
Really? I did. Yeah, I did because I just felt like that's all about projection because I'm the same person.
Oh, of course. I mean, the series, they have like so many fans and they see that you're, you know, shooting there and everything.
They fall in love with you and they fall in love with the character, of course. Yeah.
Yeah. But fame, a lot of it is projection, I felt.
Oh, for sure. I felt a lot of it was projection.
But you never had this happen to you ever before in anything else that you worked on? I think that was another level. I think that was another level.
That was, yeah, I think because the show was such a juggernaut. Yeah.
And that was like another level of walking to places and seeing people staked out. I mean, I did do a film.
I did a Guy Ritchie movie a few years ago. And I got papped.
And then I saw myself in the Daily Mail. And that was really weird.
That was like, I was just walking into a trailer. And it was like, Deubia Opere walks into his, like, I was just like.
They took a picture of you. Yeah.
And then it was like a whole page or half a page. And how do you feel about that? It doesn't affect you either way.
It's smoke and mirrors. It's the emperor with no clothes.
I agree. You know, it's not, it has, for me, the value that it has is attention.
Yeah. That's the value it has.
And that's where it's great when attention, that attention meets opportunity. And there's something to say and a story to tell or something to offer.
I that's wonderful and it's a beautiful confluence of fame or name acclaim and and the work so in that sense it does it has great value and and I do think that there is something to do with cultivating even though we live in a 24-7 social media world, there is something interesting about cultivating a sense of enigma and mystery about oneself. But whether who you are, I don't think you have to tell everything.
And I don't think everything has to be known. And, you know, there is something attractive about, you know.
Oh, yeah. You don't have to say everything.
I completely agree with you. I think it's a big part of our jobs that we have to use social media yeah and be in the media and like you said uh usually the more attention you get you get a bigger audience and it could lead to jobs and that's our job as communicators but yeah you can always keep something private and still have a private life.
And it's a game, right? We have to juggle and try to figure out how to... Yeah, but it's also not just about keeping it private and private life.
For me, it's also about that the embers, the ingredients of a story. It's important sometimes to keep things in the dark because things grow very powerfully in the dark.
And this, as much as I, and you know, it's a paradox too because I think transparency is wonderful. And I think that, you know, the transparency that I've seen online has been very liberating because you can find your community and your community can grow you, you know, especially when it comes to the LGBTQ community.
You can find people who go, oh, okay, great. And we are aligned politically and we are, oh, because that was very hard pre-social media.

So transparency and that stuff is great.

But also the other is true too,

is that you can grow things very powerfully in the dark.

And the darkness is important.

And this, like I read on sometimes online,

you know, there's this whole thing about,

oh, that's so wholesome, that's so wholesome.

But that's the whole thing is that,

for me, stories and making great stories, you don't want it to so wholesome that's so wholesome but that's the whole thing is that is that for me stories and making great stories you don't want it to be wholesome because it's not about being

wholesome right right it's about it's about everything it's about the the things that we

term bad things that we term ugly it's it's about nuance it's about subtlety and sometimes all of

that gets lost when everything is here i am but uh you know every day and sometimes it's like

Thank you. it's about nuance.
It's about subtlety. And sometimes all of that gets lost when everything is,

here I am,

ba-da!

You know, every day.

Sometimes it's like,

the nuance,

the quiet kind of,

you know,

multidimensionality of what it means to be a being,

a living being in the world.

It doesn't mean that

you can paint everything by colors

and say,

this is this emotion and that's that. There's contradiction.
Yes, I love that. There's things that will not agree with you.
Do you understand? There's madness. There's depression.
There's anger. You know, there's joy.
There's sex. There's, do you get what I'm saying? Oh my God, yeah.
And I feel like social media, it's all about defanging that. Yeah.
Let me defangang let me wrap everything up into this kind of hygienic bleached sterile kind of it's like that's I can't live in that world I love that I want to touch on a subject that is a lot more personal to you but it's also something that I loved that you put out there during your workshop and I think it's so important yeah we were obviously was an acting workshop but you mentioned and you told your story which is very public that many years ago I forgot the year you came out and you told the world that you're a very proud gay man. And you told the story.
And that's the part of the story that really touched me because I love people that are, I think it's one of the biggest lessons that we all learn is like to be our authentic selves. Yeah.
Because so many times it's hard. Like say, this is who I am.
This is what makes me happy. And when you do that, like it's a whole other world, right? And you told the story in the class and it made me very emotional that one day, and of course, I don't want to put words in your mouth and you can tell the story again if you feel like it because it's such a beautiful story.
How you decided like, you know what? I'm a man. And you're, by the way, guys, if you don't know him, please go to his social media social media go to my social media channels look at the videos because you're a very handsome man you're huge you're six foot six six foot five right you're very tall very good looking a very impressive image when you walk by and one day you decide you said you know what I'm gonna wear a skirt because that's what I love I'm gonna wear whatever makes me happy yeah I I've changed a lot and evolved a lot since then and I'm constantly evolving and I think sometimes when not sometimes I think that that's what being alive is and often that's what opening oneself up is and as I am continually opening myself, I identify as non-binary.
I don't identify as a gay man. And that was the George Floyd kind of time when that happened and those race riots.
What was the catalyst for me was walking on the street in Los Angeles saying

black lives matter. And then as I said it, I could feel, oh yes, but your life doesn't matter because you're here hiding and you're here not being honest about who you are.
And then for me, that meant coming out as a gay man because that was what was available to me and as I've stood more and more in the river because I wouldn't for me anymore call it about authenticity but for the river of being alive of being a living being and understanding that we live in a culture we live in a paradigm where we have to be identified by the physical the physical identifies you that makes you white that makes you black that makes you get and to me I understand how that is just is um is just a

construction and that my identity isn't within me that for me identity is out is out there and it's constantly changing and uh and and in that I also wouldn't have understood as I as I as I've become so much more open that for for me, gender is a construct. It's constructed.
And so for me also, as I've delved more into who I am in terms of ancestrally or where I've come from ancestrally, you know, in terms of indigeneity, and I don't mean for me, because if you know about Africa, it's incredibly, especially Ghana, Nigeria and those countries that have criminalised LGBTQ rights it's incredibly patriarchal but I mean post colonial pre-colonial Africa certainly in my mother's people, in their culture the Iboes, there was no word for gender. My mom constantly used to, I have three brothers, she constantly would move between he and she, constantly.
Where is she? Where is she? Tell her dinner's ready. There was no, because, you know, firstly the language that Ibbos speak was rewritten by a missionary.
So the language that they speak has actually been anglicized, the Ibo language. But pre that, I think Ibo and Yoruba, two different kind of ethnicities, had no word for gender.
And gender wasn't chosen at birth. It was something that happened in your maturity, in your adolescence.
This is pre-colonial. And so that's all in me.
But also an understanding that when I was coming out as an actor, I knew that this was racial capital. I knew that I could walk into a room and blow people away with yo motherfucker you know I knew I could do all those voices I knew I could do that I knew I could play that and so I thought oh if I'm myself because I live in a very I didn't have these words but I understand it now because I feel like we live in a very mediocre culture we look at people and go oh you're this and we call you flamboyant and they're therefore you can only play that role which is bullshit right or oh you you know you sleep with men therefore you could never be convincing enough on all that crap and so i played that i was playing that role in my life you know not to my friends but when it came to casting directors and i had certain agents at the time he would say take off this when you go in the room and yeah who would go make sure they would try to control you and I understand the way you're dressed and the way you trade yourself I understood it because in a way you do have to cut the garment according to the cloth you know not that you would walk I would walk into the room completely wearing if I'm going for a certain role role.
So I understood that, but also it kind of bled into an understanding for the actor. You know, a lot of actors are in the closet, not just a lot of actors.
Oh my God, I know. And I understand it because there's so much banking on it.
So many more than anybody. And it kills me, like this culture of hiding behind, like not being able to be yourself.
Yeah, yeah, finish. Of course, please.
That for me, that was the stepping stone to be able to say, I don't want to play who I am in these movies or on TV in life. I've paid my dues, right? I can know I have as it's called range right I can I can play that's not a problem for me so if I show up like this um that's that's down for me it was me telling that's down to them that's down to that culture and but but but also the reason why I did and have stopped calling myself a gamer even though I love the gay community and you know because I also found that it was very much not aligned with with who I am gay the kind of for me gay and heterosexual they're both sides of the same coin of the same coin and there's a kind of, for me, gay and heterosexual, they're both sides of the same coin, of the same coin.
And there's a kind of, whether it's heteronormativity or homonormativity, there's this alliance between the two that is, that play, kind of, not sure what I'm trying to say, but I didn't find freedom in that. I didn find freedom in that and I think there's something more bold and something more not as it's certainly not for me where I stand now is is I'm I I'm walking into a space in a place where I get to be in the world and I get to discover this being that yes someone may turn me whatever gender doesn't doesn't worry me I I can use every single kind of pronoun I prefer cupcake I prefer I prefer beautiful gorgeous all those things right don't call me man don't call me bro but but I I just think that the world is changing because we're all waking up yeah and realizing there are so many you know we we live in this world where everything is called with a heterosexual name your uncle your aunt your and it's and everything's on this linear timeline and I disagree with that you know I disagree I do too but I always feel no but I always feel every time I see you and every time on your workshops, you always read something really beautiful.
Like you pick something like a poem or you say something out of your mind. You always send a message of acceptance.
And to me, that's like you have such a beautiful soul. Like it doesn't matter.
Like you said said it shouldn't matter what somebody whatever people want to call themselves but it's always about like accepting who you are and being your most authentic self and I think this is why but I feel I actually feel more than oneself I feel that we change yeah I think authenticity I think there's authenticity but there's also being alive and I think two different things I I think, we change. Yeah, of course.
And I think authenticity, I think there's authenticity, but there's also being alive. And I think they're two different things.
I think, for instance, I'm reading this great philosopher, great, I mean, he probably wouldn't call himself great, I think he's brilliant. His name's Achille Mbembe, Cameroonian, and he's brilliant.
And he talks about, I forgot the book, Out of the Dark. Recommend that book, Out of the Dark.
and he talks about i forgot the book out of the dark recommend

that book out of the dark and he talks about how the ancient africans they didn't seek identity in their physicality they sought relationality relationality to the world everything had consciousness this is years before quantum physics everything had consciousness so was a conversation. You were in a conversation with the cosmos.
Your being was ever changing. It was in a conversation with that rock, with that bark, with that tree.

You know, they knew that everything, now we know that trees are social.

Now we know that the rhizomes, or rhizomes, R-H-I-Z-O-M-E-S,

you know, the roots that go right down into the earth are communicating with their cousins, are communicating with other family trees, literally, and feeding certain trees water that are going thirsty, that are of the same lineage. It's fascinating.
But these ancient indigenous people knew all that. And so their sense of being in the world was about their relationality with the world.

And I feel that we've reduced everything down to,

oh, you're this.

Oh, you're wearing a skirt, so you're this.

These ridiculous, reductive, infantile terms

to describe this incredibly mysterious, enigmatic journey

that we're on called life.

We reduce it down to the most ridiculous, do you get what I'm saying? Yes. Definitions.
I love that. If you walk like this, if you move like this, if you sound like that, you're this.
Yeah. And I really, really reject that.
I love that. That's really nice.
What's next for you? What's next for me? Are you based here now? Are you based in London? Are you back and forth? I'm back and forth. I mean, I am here.
I love LA. LA is really good.
LA loves you. LA loves you too.
LA is great. I feel like there's a real sense here.
I mean, people down LA, but I find that California, there is an air where you get to really explore

and open your mind.

You know, California is really open to that.

And I've loved that.

And the sun.

Yes.

Yes.

Can't beat this weather.

The weather.

The weather.

Aren't we lucky?

I get spoiled when I go, when I leave. I'm not going to say anything about the weather in London.
I promise. Where are you, babe? Here.
Okay. Yeah, I live right here in Beverly Hills.
I'm in LA. I'm in California.
Yes. Yes.
Okay. Do you love it? I love it.
Yes. I cannot.
Yeah. That's home.
I love traveling, but yeah, this is home. Wow.
So you're hanging out. So if somebody wants to know, because like I said, I'm a huge, huge, huge fan of your workshops.
I think if anybody is in the LA, because that's where you do the workshops. Well, I'm kind of also mobile.
So I'll be spending some time in London. I've got some funding and I'm getting more for a film project.
As you can tell, I'm tentative because I prefer to announce it in the right way. But yeah, that's happening.
And so, yeah, London, Los Angeles. So if people want to find you and figure out if you you have any workshops coming up how do they find you Instagram Instagram Instagram right now okay I'm gonna put his links okay on the link of this episode and also on my website catondelouse.com so you guys can find him and if you happen to be lucky enough to be in LA or London I highly highly recommend you go do one of his workshops because like I said to me it was like just your energy and your message and just being around you it's like to me was life-changing I love you I adore you it's such an have you.
Thank you so much for doing this. And I wish you all the success in the world.
Congratulations on everything you do. You are absolutely incredible.
Thank you. We did this.
It only took me three years to get you here. I think so.
Like with this COVID chaos, like time flies by.

It was before COVID.

It was, I remember, no, it was literally like the Soul House had just reopened.

Wow.

So I don't even know.

It was like, I think it was like almost, it was like just about, I think it was the first

workshop you did just like when they reopened.

So I'm going to, I'm going to guess like around three years. Wow around three years so i hope it doesn't take another three years to get you back thank you so much it was such an honor you are incredible thank you i like you know how they say hollywood i'll see you at the oscars i'm sure one of these days you're gonna win one i feel it yeah i feel it i feel it i think it's in your destiny thank you thank you so much you're incredible thank you so much and i'll see you guys very soon the obia operate take care and before i let you go you guys that know me know that i am a huge supporter of small businesses and small brands and i absolutely love girlyly a la mode, building a community for body positivity, self-love and inclusion with very cozy, casual pieces that everybody can wear.
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The love collection out now with a bunch of cozy sweatshirts, hoodies, beanies. One of my favorite pieces is the organic reusable tote.
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And let's spread some love love big shout out to the burrata house one of my favorite casual dining places in the heart of west hollywood they make authentic delicious fresh italian food sandwiches pasta salads with the delicious delicious fresh burrata on top on 161 South Crescent Heights. So if you're looking for a place that you can have a quick bite for lunch, dinner, takeout for your family, this is it.
And I love, of course, supporting local businesses. So if you guys are in the Los Angeles area, West Hollywood, go check out the Burrata House.

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