The Dartmouth College Murders

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Speaker 1 That's snhu.edu/slash/morbid.

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Speaker 1 Hey, weirdos. I'm Elena.
I'm Ash. And this is Morbid.

Speaker 1 It's morbid in the afternoon. It's like the middle of the day, smack dab.

Speaker 1 And if you listen to the last episode, I mentioned that I have COVID, so that's why I sound like this. In case you're like, why do you sound so annoying? Why do you sound like Lonzilo Ham?

Speaker 1 No, I don't think it's annoying.

Speaker 1 I'm like a little stuffed up. I always prefer my sick voice.

Speaker 1 I don't mind it, but I always feel like it must sound annoying to other people. Nah.
Like, I don't like to hear someone sick. I don't care.
Because it makes me feel sick a little bit.

Speaker 1 So that's why I'm apologizing ahead of time. And then what's your tism? Sorry if it makes you feel sick.
You're funny. But yeah, I got COVID from the

Speaker 1 shows this weekend. Worth it.
Worth it. Worth it.
It's so much fun. And to be honest,

Speaker 1 I'm okay. Like, it's just been a kind of yucky cold.
That's really it.

Speaker 1 But, so that's a good thing. Yeah.
Because sometimes COVID will kick my ass. I know.
I was very, when you first tested positive, I was like, oh, one, I was like, oh, fuck. I probably have COVID.

Speaker 1 And then I tested negative and I was like, my immune system is a baddie. That's right.
And Mikey, too. I know.
It's so weird. Everybody's fine.

Speaker 1 My immune system is focused on other things in my body, body, body. It's like, I got to pay attention to this.
But yeah, I've managed to keep everyone in the house not like COVID-free.

Speaker 1 So I've been wearing my mask. I've been staying my distance.
Yeah. She's staying the distance.
That's true.

Speaker 1 I'm going for speed because I like

Speaker 1 in your time of need. Because I made her pastina, bitch.
I think we talked about that last episode. It's true.
And I ate so much of it last night. I'll make you more.
Oh, so good. Pastine is the cure.

Speaker 1 But yeah, I apologize if I sound annoying to you. But this is a we have a crazy case.

Speaker 1 We'll talk about business if we if we have some, but uh, usually we we only focus on like spooky episodes during October. You said that's so valuable.

Speaker 1 Spooky episodes. Spooky episodes.
He said it was October.

Speaker 1 We really sit in the djarknias during October, but

Speaker 1 we got a true crime case for you. Yeah, we're going to, this October, I think we're going to spooky, we're going to true crime, we're going to alien abduct.

Speaker 1 We're just going to try to hit everything for you guys.

Speaker 1 We're in such a new place of like revitalization

Speaker 1 that we just want to provide. We just want to do all the cool things for you.
Yeah, we just, we feel good. We want you to feel good.
Yeah. Everything is good, yeah, G-E-W-D.

Speaker 1 I am not running off of spite anymore. No, that's that's great.
You know how many days it's been since I cried in this office? A lot, yeah.

Speaker 1 If it wasn't for, well, never mind, but yeah, you know, yeah, I didn't, the last time I cried, it wasn't work-related.

Speaker 1 No, and that's before we used to have a countdown in this room of how many days it had been since I cried. That's not even a joke.

Speaker 1 No, we literally made a sign that said, it has been this many days since Ash cried in the office Because work was so horrible

Speaker 1 for about three years.

Speaker 1 And everybody was always mad at us. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So, yeah. So we're not there anymore.
And I'm glad it seems like you guys are feeling it along with us, which is like

Speaker 1 just giving us even more happiness and more like just motivation to give you what we can give you. Yeah, life just feels good.
Yeah, I'm actually going to post. I want to start posting.

Speaker 1 I've been saying I wanted to like post some like

Speaker 1 recipes and some recommendations for like books and movies and stuff. And that's going to start now too.
So like get ready for that on like the Instagram and stuff. And it'll be fun.

Speaker 1 We're going to have a lot of fun, guys. And I'm excited.
I like it.

Speaker 1 This case is not fun. No.

Speaker 1 The fun ends here. Okay.
Just so everybody knows. I don't think I know this case.
This one I remember very vividly happening. It's obviously very recent or moderately recent though.

Speaker 1 It's from 2001, which still feels like it was 10 years ago. 25.

Speaker 1 Almost years ago.

Speaker 1 It still feels very, it feels like it was literally 10 years ago. Like 2001 does not feel that long ago.
2001 feels like a very long time ago in my life. Not for me.

Speaker 1 I remember so vividly 200 years ago. Well, you were like

Speaker 1 16. Yeah, so I was six.
I was very, Jesus. I was very sentient and very like aware of everything.
So I think it just hits a little harder.

Speaker 1 2001 is the first date that I remember writing on a paper like in school. Wow.

Speaker 1 Whenever I hear 2001, I literally have a vivid memory of being in my first grade classroom and writing the year in like a little date space. Look at that.
Yeah, isn't it weird? That is weird.

Speaker 1 I have a weird, I have like a weird mind. Like I can see like pictures in my mind sometimes of times and of numbers.
Yeah, I know. That's fun.
Yeah. You have a weird brain.
You do too.

Speaker 1 I love that for us. Cheers.
Cheers to weird brains.

Speaker 1 So yeah, before we get into

Speaker 1 that was our ice machine.

Speaker 1 You really said before we get into it, it said.

Speaker 1 Hold on, we're shutting off the ice machine. I feel like we should just leave this in.

Speaker 1 I think this is what the people want. I think you want the behind the scenes like we used to, where I just wouldn't edit out all the shit.

Speaker 1 Mikey, leave it in. Mikey's like a way better editor than I was, so like I would just leave everything in.
Don't say that.

Speaker 1 But But yeah, leave it in. You know, some more vintage morbid of like ice machines turning on and shit.
Yeah, maybe I'll fall off the couch later. Just for old time sake.

Speaker 1 If you weren't an early listener, I once fell off a recliner mid-recording and went, ho, ho.

Speaker 1 According to Elena,

Speaker 1 I'll never forget that sound, that ho, ho. sound.

Speaker 1 I survived. I don't know.
We were just sitting too. Like, I don't know how I fell.

Speaker 1 It It was mid-story. I was leaning back too far and the whole recliner.

Speaker 1 That recliner was awesome. You still have that? Yeah.
Yeah. We do.
Let's go. Bring it back in.
Bring it back. No, that's when you banned me from sitting on the recliner.

Speaker 1 And that's when we sat back on the floor. Because you would either fall off of it or make too much noise.

Speaker 1 Too.

Speaker 1 And people would be like, so I did hear this thing. Early days of Morbid, I was always fucking with something, whether it be a recliner, a bobby pin, a battery.

Speaker 1 She would start playing with something and I would just hold my hand hand out like a parent, like put it in my hand. Literally, I was like, that's going to make noise throughout the entire episode.

Speaker 1 I'll always be me. At the live show the other night, I almost went out with gum in my, in my mouth.
Like I was like, oh, fuck, I have gum in my mouth. He also immediately spilled broth.

Speaker 1 I forgot about that. Okay, Wilbert, time to be cleaned, you guys.
We cleaned it up, but

Speaker 1 I was so worried about my tummy. I couldn't really eat that much.

Speaker 1 So I was like, oh, I'll get ramen, like that, like good, genuine ramen that will will like soothe my belly genuine ramen yeah not like i was like i just said i was gonna soothe my tummy and then people heard ramen or they were like bitch are you okay but like i mean like from like a yummy like yeah like place authentic um and i went to pour in the broth and i literally just knocked it all over the table in the green room of the wilbur and i said i'm here it was immediate and it was on impact she spilled broth all over the table and it was like not a little bit of broth it was so much broth And we said, yep, I said, very, I mean, the room smelled really good.

Speaker 1 It smelled like broth. But then we like needed to move the posters to

Speaker 1 somewhere else. It was a big thing.
It was pretty great. I am who I am.
That's all that I am. Bye-bye.
You know? All right.

Speaker 1 But yeah, so lots of, we'll share some fun, like, seasonal stuff when we can on the socials, like some recipes and some recommendations. Yeah.
I'm excited to start doing that.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I am too, actually.

Speaker 1 Because I just watched Clown in a Cornfield and it's based.

Speaker 1 it's based off of a book called Clown in the Cornfield by Adam Caesar, I believe his name is. Caesar.
And I have the book. I watched the movie now, and now I can't wait to read the book.

Speaker 1 Did you finish the movie? Shout out to him. I did.
I finally finished it because I have COVID. So while the girls were at after-school activities, I had like

Speaker 1 45 minutes of just like quiet. And you didn't do what I suggested? Well,

Speaker 1 I have to choose because

Speaker 1 Ash suggested I I watch Halloween Wars or Bacon Championship, which I will, but I can watch, I watch that with the girls. Yeah, so you want to watch.
They're not here.

Speaker 1 I got to watch a horror movie. I get that.
I got to watch something I can't have on when they are in the neighborhood even. Like I can't, I never throw on a horror movie when they're in.

Speaker 1 When they're in town. Yeah, even if they're at a friend's house, like near us, I'm like, they could come back at any time.
It's true. I can't traumatize them like this.

Speaker 1 They just walk in and he's like, I'm like, oh, God.

Speaker 1 So I immediately put on Clown in a Cornfield and was like, finish.

Speaker 1 finish him it's a fun fucking movie should we cover it on screen we should because it is fun as hell I feel like it's oh scream listeners we're back we are we're back we didn't die we did not die we took some time off we're so back it's like the one show that we like can take time off so we took advantage so we took advantage and Caleb is like the most understanding human on the planet of earth yeah and I think he loves everybody everybody needed a loved one we all had stuff going on it was impromptu but but we're back but uh but yeah I highly recommend Clown in a Cornfield.

Speaker 1 That'll be part of my recommendations, probably that I post. It's really fun.
I feel like your recommendations are going to be like

Speaker 1 books and stuff. And mine are going to be like cute boots for wide calf girlies.
Which these are all things people need. Valid, well-rounded individuals.

Speaker 1 I just got so many cute boots for wide calf girlies. I love that.
I was going to, here's the thing. I got called out by the lady.
Michaela's a wide calf girly. I know.

Speaker 1 I actually took some of her recommendations. She made so many boots.
She did. I was getting a pedicure the other day, and the woman said, Oh, your calves are so strong.

Speaker 1 And I said, What a lovely way of saying that. I said, Did you just say that I have the thickest calves in the United Nations? She said, No,

Speaker 1 so strong. She said, So strong.
So strong. And I was like, I love that personally.

Speaker 1 I didn't know how to feel about it.

Speaker 1 They're so strong. She's saying, like, you can kick some ass with these thighs, with these thighs.
With these thighs, you were going to these thighs. I mean, sure, why not? Seven legs.
Exactly.

Speaker 1 And apparently, strong calves kick ass. I like it.
There you go. Yeah, but I was like, hmm.
You're like, well, look at that. Okay.
So then I was like, maybe

Speaker 1 I'm a wide calf girly because whenever I got boots in the past, I was like, why aren't these working all of a sudden? See? My calves got too strong.

Speaker 1 I mean, everybody's got something. I have, like, my feet are super wide.
You do. So I can't fit like narrow shoes.
Like, I have to get wide shoes. Yeah.
So it's all, we all got something that's like

Speaker 1 we just have to be a little more mindful of when we buy things. Exactly.
Well, I have recommendations for my strong calf gals. Hello.
I don't like wide calf. I love strong calf.
Strong calf.

Speaker 1 That's what we need to do. I'm reclaiming it.
Michaela, you hear that? Strong calf. Strong calf.
Yeah. Michaela, do you hear us? I know.
I love you. I think she's so funny.
I love her a lot. I do too.

Speaker 1 Fellow Boston gal. I just wish good things for her.
I do too. I think she has good things.

Speaker 1 I send good vibes. I do too.
And by the power of Christ, I compel those who don't send her good vibes. to go away.

Speaker 1 Yeah. That's not cool.

Speaker 1 Compelling somebody means you want them to, right? Yeah. By the power of Christ, I compel you.
Yeah, because the whole thing is the power of Christ compels you to like get out of that person.

Speaker 1 Yeah, so I compel you to get to get to exercise out of

Speaker 1 the power of Christ. All right, we should get into it because I could talk for hours about nothing.
It's true. And we have a bonus episode soon, so that's where we should do that.

Speaker 1 So we need to remember that we have that bonus episode where we can, we can just shit to shoot the shit, you know, just like, and I mean it in a good way. Maybe we could just do like a life catch-up.

Speaker 1 Would you guys like that? Just let us know. If you guys have any, like, any kind of ideas.
We've had to be so structured for so many. Here's the thing.
So we don't, now that we have one episode

Speaker 1 every month that we can be like loosey-goosey and like make it whatever we want. We almost don't know how to be unstructured.

Speaker 1 You know, so you please, if you guys have ideas, like we have some ideas, but we also want to make it something that you guys like really dig and have fun with.

Speaker 1 So if there are ideas that you have that you're you're like, I really wish you would do this for your bonus episode, throw them our way. We'll at least consider all of them for sure.

Speaker 1 Like you're the people who are listening. So we want to make you happy.
Depot. All right.
So let's go back 24 years ago, I think almost 25, to 2001. Let's go.

Speaker 1 So this is, we're going to be doing the Dartmouth College murders. Okay.
I don't know.

Speaker 1 This is a really, it's a sad one. Yeah.
It really is. It's a rough one.
It's a sad one. It's, I remember this happening on, I remember watching the news reports.

Speaker 1 I remember thinking this couple that the two victims were just like the most adorable people. And I was just like, so sad for them.
So it's a very crazy case. Okay.

Speaker 1 So it was already dark when Roxanna Verona arrived at Hoff and Susanna Zantop's house in Aetna, New Hampshire at 6.30 p.m. on January 27th, 2001.
The trio had been friends forever.

Speaker 1 They'd been friends for a lot of years. They met as co-workers at Dartmouth College, which was pretty nearby.
And they got together pretty regularly for like dinners, dinner parties.

Speaker 1 Like they were just like fun friends. Yeah, they were what Amy Poehler would call a good hang.
Exactly. Great fucking show, by the way.
There you go.

Speaker 1 So when Roxanna got to the door, she rang the bell and she waited. She was just like so excited to see her friends.
They always answered all enthusiastically.

Speaker 1 It was just like excited to see each other. Yeah.

Speaker 1 But a few moments passed and no one came to the door.

Speaker 1 So she was like a little, she was like, we have plans. You know, what are we doing here? And I'm sure that was unusual.
So she rang the bell a second time and waited.

Speaker 1 And when a few more moments passed with no sign of Susanna and Hoff, Verona tried the door handle and it turned like opened. And she was like, wait a second.

Speaker 1 Now, to the residents of Aetna, which has a population of like about 900,

Speaker 1 locking your doors was kind of like foreign and unnecessary at this point. Like it really was.
It was

Speaker 1 a kind of town. 2001, too, it was still

Speaker 1 a nicer time to be alive. It still was like, you know, and this is like, this is the beginning of the year.
It's January. We're still in that like innocent time of, you know, before

Speaker 1 everything exploded. Yeah.
And life, you know, so it's, of course, like there were things happening, but you know what I mean. Yeah.
A little more of an innocent time.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 after being in Aetna for more than three decades at this point, Hoff and Susanna definitely were vigilant and they did lock their doors.

Speaker 1 And they would, like, they would keep the door locked, they would unlock it to let people in, and they would lock it again. Like, they just were.
Like, that's just who they were.

Speaker 1 As soon as a guest arrived, locked the door. Same.
Smart. They were just, you know, they were just vigilant.

Speaker 1 So Roxana remembered all the times she'd arrived at the house before, and Susanna was always ready to meet her guests.

Speaker 1 Like, she was never somebody that you had to sit outside and like wait for her to come. She was a good host.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And so she thought, okay, like, cause she's trying to, obviously, the last thing she wants to think is something bad happening. Yeah.
So her thought was, okay, it's cold outside.

Speaker 1 Maybe she just like was really busy cooking or something and she knew she wouldn't be able to like run to the door. So she didn't want her friend to wait in the cold because that's who Susanna is.

Speaker 1 Wow. So she's like, maybe that's what it is.
Like she just wanted me to walk in. So she was like, okay, she just left the door unlocked for me.
That's what it is.

Speaker 1 So she also remembered too, something about Hoff going to visit a friend that afternoon with plans for him to join a little later in the evening. So So she was like, so there you go.

Speaker 1 Hoff can't answer the door because he's not here. And Susanna's busy and she doesn't want me to be cold.
Bingo, that's what it is.

Speaker 1 So she goes in, she drapes her coat and purse over the chair just inside the doorway and she makes her way to the dining room.

Speaker 1 And she sees that set down, you know, there's like a dinner plate's ready and she sets down the salad that she had brought. And Hoff and Susanna were...
Definitely not like neat freaks.

Speaker 1 Like they weren't like they didn't have like a museum house kind of thing, but they always definitely kept their house in order. Yeah, like tidy.

Speaker 1 So Roxanna was very surprised to find that there was like clearly like they had started to like get things ready for the evening, but the actual dining room table was still covered in papers as well and like other evidence that someone had been working there earlier in the day.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Which like they would have cleaned that up before setting the table.
So she pokes her head in the kitchen and she's expecting to see Susanna there, but the kitchen's empty.

Speaker 1 And she was like, okay. And she looks though and she's like, clearly she started prepping prepping dinner.
Like, there was evidence of that.

Speaker 1 So Roxanna calls out Susanna's name a few times, expecting her to reply or just hearing some kind of movement. Anything, but the house is completely still and silent.
Oh, that's so chilling.

Speaker 1 So she was like, trying to think of other things. Maybe she ran out to get something because she forgot it.
Like, but she wouldn't have left the door unlocked when she did that.

Speaker 1 Like, all these things are going through her head. So she's confused.
She's getting very panicky, very uncomfortable. And Roxanna makes her way down the hall to Hoff's study.

Speaker 1 and it's there that things really shifted into terror instead of just uncomfort discomfort excuse me

Speaker 1 so instead of just the orderly rows of books and neat stacks of paper on the desk that you know she was always used to seeing in there the study was in a total state of disarray like it had been ransacked the first thing her eyes settled on too was Susanna's body lying just a few feet from the door.

Speaker 1 Oh no. She was face down with a pool of blood surrounding her head like a halo, Roxanna said.
Oh. But that wasn't all.

Speaker 1 Blood had also soaked through the sweatshirt that she was wearing and through her pants. She was covered.
Oh, wow.

Speaker 1 Now, a few feet away, Hoff was there as well, lying on his side, his head resting on the bottom shelf of the bookcase. He landed so hard that it knocked aside several heavy textbooks.

Speaker 1 Clearly, he had been like, he had been floating there.

Speaker 1 Like Susanna, he was covered in blood. It had soaked through his wool sweater and and down the legs of his pants.

Speaker 1 One leg of his pants had a huge tear in the fabric. And Roxanna looked at Hoff's face and she said it was just waxen and lifeless, like completely drained of blood.
Oh, that's awesome.

Speaker 1 It was a very brutal scene. Just like the detail of his wool sweater.
I don't know what that, that just like did something to me. When you look them up, they're just like the cutest couple.

Speaker 1 Yeah, they just seem like awful, like good people. Yeah.

Speaker 1 The room had been completely ransacked. A card table had flipped on its side.
A chair was turned over. Books and papers were everywhere, all splattered with blood, and they were scattered everywhere.

Speaker 1 Then Roxanna saw something that at first was so unexpected in the Zantop house that it was almost unrecognizable to her.

Speaker 1 On the floor by Hoff's left foot was a hard plastic knife sheath, like the one used as like a hunting knife. Okay.

Speaker 1 And she was like, yeah, that would not be in their house. Right.
And she spotted a second sheath on the floor a few feet away near Susanna's sandal. Strange.

Speaker 1 Each was about a foot long and three inches wide, suggesting that whatever type of knife they were designed to hold was fucking gigantic. Like a big hunting knife.
Yeah, that's massive.

Speaker 1 A foot long. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Like, and three inches wide was how big the sheath was. Yeah, no.
So once she was finally able to kind of get some clarity on what she was looking at, she started to panic, obviously.

Speaker 1 She needed to call someone.

Speaker 1 So it occurred occurred to her that oh the killer or killers might still be in this i was just going to say that like that terror washing over you that somebody could still be in there you're seeing your two dead friends brutally murdered in front of you you're having to comprehend that and then also having that added fuck like i gotta get out of here i don't even know how to get out of here right so she did remember even through the terror that hoff and susanna's neighbor bob mccollum uh who she met several times at previous parties, she was like, okay, I remember him.

Speaker 1 I have to get to the neighbor. So she ran out of the study and down the hall, grabbing her purse and coat before ripping the door open and frantically hunting for her car keys.
Oh, God.

Speaker 1 So at the McCollum house, Bob, his wife Audrey, their daughter Cindy, and Cindy's husband, John, were just sitting down to dinner to celebrate Bob's 76th birthday. Oh, no.

Speaker 1 When they heard a frantic knocking at the front door. And then they heard a woman just screaming.
Oh.

Speaker 1 so Bob opens the door, finds Roxanna, and he's like, Okay, I vaguely remember this woman from Hoff and Susanna's party. You're like, I know who this is, but she's in this panicked state.

Speaker 1 And so, they usher her inside and they're trying, like, okay, what happened? And she's like crying, she's trying to explain it. And she tells them what she discovered at the Zantop house.

Speaker 1 So, Audrey calls 911, and Bob and Cindy, both doctors, drove over to the neighbor's neighbor's house to see if there was anything they could do until the paramedics arrived. They ran right into there.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 1 wow like so no thought for their own safety just like let's go try to help our friends so as soon as they entered the study bob and cindy knew they'd arrived far too late to be of any help to their friends yeah audrey later told a reporter it was obvious that they had been dead for some time After she hung up with the 911 dispatcher, Audrey called her friend Steve Gordon, who was the editor of the local newspaper, The Valley News, and asked him to please monitor the police scanner for any news or updates.

Speaker 1 Officer Brad Sargent of the Hanover Police Department was the first to arrive on the scene, and Cindy met him in the driveway and brought him into the house.

Speaker 1 And then Bob walked the officer down the hall to the study. So they briefly took in the chaos of the room and the state of the victims.

Speaker 1 And then the officer radioed the dispatcher and canceled the ambulance and then asked for the coroner to be sent. Now, within 10 minutes, Brad Sargent was joined by Hanover Police Chief Nick Giacone,

Speaker 1 who quickly

Speaker 1 was followed by a string of investigators from Hanover and and several detectives from New Hampshire State Police and the Grafton County Sheriff's Department.

Speaker 1 So aside from a pretty brutal axe murder of two students a decade earlier, there hadn't been a murder in the area in nearly half a century, and everyone seemed at loss for what they were supposed to do here.

Speaker 1 Did you say axe murder? Yes. Oh, okay.
So they didn't have a lot of it, but when they did, they were big. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So Giacone cleared the scene of any non-essential members of law enforcement just to preserve the maximum amount of evidence they could.

Speaker 1 And the McCollums and Roxanna Verona returned to the McCollum house to answer some questions.

Speaker 1 Now, while the neighbors attempted to provide law enforcement with any information that they could to help aid the investigation, investigators started processing the scene.

Speaker 1 In the kitchen, there was food out on the counters, and as Roxanna had said, it looked like someone had been preparing dinner when they were interrupted.

Speaker 1 There was also an opened bottle of Merlot wine on the counter with only one glass. Okay.
She was like having a glass of wine while cooking. Yeah.

Speaker 1 The weirdest thing about the scene was that while the study had been ransacked as though the killers were looking for valuables, the rest of the house was in pretty normal order.

Speaker 1 So they were looking for something in that study. Yeah.

Speaker 1 In fact, it was as though someone had hit the pause button on a remote control and left their evening, like what the Xantop's evening was, just frozen. in that moment before the murder.

Speaker 1 It was very chilling. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Because nothing else seemed to be missing from the house, robbery seemed like an unlikely motive for the murder.

Speaker 1 But if it was a robbery, what the fuck else was the motive for killing these two people? So brutally, too. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Over the course of three days, investigators from multiple state and local agencies were in and out of that house. They were processing the scene, collecting whatever they could.

Speaker 1 Unfortunately, after days scouring the house, there was very little evidence that pointed them in the direction of a killer, like who it was.

Speaker 1 In total, state crime scene technicians removed 105 items from the entire house, including doorknobs, keyrings, a calendar, Hoff's laptop, bloodstained books from the office where the bodies were found.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 on top of that, a team of five forensic officers spent nearly a day combing the rugs in the house for any hair or fiber evidence that could identify the killer. Wow.

Speaker 1 I think they just took whatever they could because there was so little evidence that I think they just were like, take everything, whatever we can.

Speaker 1 A total of 19 different finger and palm prints were collected from the scene. At least two belonged to the victims, and three more were quickly identified as Bob and Cindy McCollum and Roxanna.

Speaker 1 Several others were soon identified as those of various investigators, which left a small number unidentified and potentially belonging to a killer.

Speaker 1 Outside the study, investigators discovered five drops of blood, as well as five, quote, partial or near-complete bloody boot prints that didn't match any footwear in the house. Okay.

Speaker 1 So that was something. Yeah.

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Speaker 1 The day after Hoff and Susanna's bodies were discovered, an autopsy was conducted, but it also didn't prove a whole lot. At least from an investigative standpoint, I would say.
According to the ME Dr.

Speaker 1 Thomas Gilson, Hoff had suffered multiple stab wounds with injuries of the airway, heart, and lung, while Susanna's death resulted from multiple stab wounds with injuries of the skull, brain, major vessel, thyroid cartridge, airway, intestine, and spleen.

Speaker 1 Wow. Yeah.
I mean, that knife. They had been damaged.
They had been brutally stabbed to death, both of them. Hoff in the chest and Susanna in the head, chest, and stomach.
Oh, God.

Speaker 1 The time of death was estimated to be a few hours before Roxanna Verona discovered their bodies.

Speaker 1 And Gibson noted that given the extent and severity of the wounds, their deaths would have occurred within seconds to minutes. I mean, at least there's that.
You just hope closer to seconds. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Aside from the boot prints and the five droplets of blood, the most promising lead was the plastic knife sheaths left at the scene. Like, that's a big deal.
We saw that in the

Speaker 1 Idaho murders. Yep.
That knife sheath can really prove a lot. Yeah.

Speaker 1 You had the right to fucking Amazon in that

Speaker 1 case. Yeah, for real.
The fact that there were two sheaths suggested to investigators that there were likely two killers.

Speaker 1 I mean, two knives. Yeah.
I mean, unless he uses one and then just takes out another, but that's very unlikely.

Speaker 1 In fact, that belief was supported by the fact that each sheath had a different set of fingerprints on it,

Speaker 1 which detectives assumed belonged to the killers.

Speaker 1 Unfortunately, when the prints were run through various databases, state and federal level, they never got a match.

Speaker 1 Which is even scarier because I'm like, oh, so this is like one of your first crimes? Yeah, at least. Like, what the fuck? Right.

Speaker 1 So the sheaths were also significant in that they didn't appear to belong to an ordinary hunting knife.

Speaker 1 In almost every rural state like New Hampshire, it wouldn't have been unusual for a person to own one or more hunting knives. It's just part of the culture.
Right.

Speaker 1 But these sheaths weren't familiar to any of the investigators.

Speaker 1 And upon further investigation, detectives learned that the sheaths were likely designed to contain what's colloquially known as this SOG knife, a particular style of blade that's designed for and issued to members of the Studies and Observations Group.

Speaker 1 Among other things, members of the SOG were typically assigned to special covert missions during the Vietnam War era. What?

Speaker 1 And the blade was designed to be untraceable in the event that the carrier was captured. What?

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 So was it almost left, it almost feels like that was left like to mock in that scenario?

Speaker 1 Do you know what I mean? Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Like, here's the sheaths, but it's untraceable.
Right. Yeah.
That is. Isn't that fucked up? Really fucked up.
And Vietnam War era.

Speaker 1 It's like, who's the motherfucker? That is the thing.

Speaker 1 Now, according to the analysts, the sheaths were relatively new and designed to hold an SOG knife known as a SOG SEAL 2000, which was a 12-inch knife with a 7-inch blade and a 5-inch handle. Wow.

Speaker 1 The knives themselves had only been on the market for roughly five years. Okay.

Speaker 1 But the sheaths were new this year and had only been on the market for about 10 months. So

Speaker 1 unfortunately for investigators, the SOG SEAL 2000 was a very popular knife with weapons collectors. So tracking down the seller of that particular knife would not be easy.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 But it was at least a start. Something.
Yeah, you got to go on something. And before closing out the report, the analysts did note one other thing.

Speaker 1 Although it might have resembled a hunting knife to like an untrained eye, the SEAL 2000, quote, could only be considered a hunting knife if the intended prey were human.

Speaker 1 Which is the most chilling statement I've ever heard. I'm sorry, say that again.
It could only be considered a hunting knife if the intended prey were human. Says who? The analyst.

Speaker 1 What?

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 So, what is it used for otherwise? That's what he said. It looks like a hunting knife, like you would hunt deer and whatever the fuck else people hunt.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 Not used for that. No.
He was like, the only way that this is a hunting knife is if you're trying to hunt humans. What the fuck? Yeah.

Speaker 1 Which is the most chilling statement. I hate that so much.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 So while one set of investigators began the slow and very tedious work of tracking the knife to some kind of origin point, another group started looking into the backgrounds of the victims.

Speaker 1 Since it didn't look like this was a robbery as a motive, and the murders had been so up close and so fucking brutal. Yeah.
It was fair to assume the Xantops had been killed for some personal reason.

Speaker 1 Right. Like it didn't make sense otherwise.

Speaker 1 In fact, on the night of the murders, Audrey McCollum remembered a recent conversation with Hoff in which he had mentioned something about a bad interaction with a student.

Speaker 1 And she wondered if that might be related to their deaths. Okay.

Speaker 1 Good for her to remember that in all her,

Speaker 1 you know. Now, according to McCollum, the Xantops had a reputation for teaching, for reaching out to their students if they thought they were struggling academically or emotionally.
Which is kind.

Speaker 1 Which is so fucking kind.

Speaker 1 A few weeks later, Hoff had described a student in one of his classes that Audrey, who was a former mental health professional, to her, it sounded like the young man was struggling with bipolar or some other, you know, psychiatric disorder.

Speaker 1 Okay. And he needed help.
Okay.

Speaker 1 She said, I think there may have been a troubled student, and Hoff may have underestimated how troubled he was. Oh.

Speaker 1 McCollum's suspicion took an additional significance when later that evening, Hanover police learned that Dartmouth campus police had received reports from residents of one of the dorms regarding a strange young man who'd showed up at their door asking to use the phone just a few hours after the Xantops estimated time of death.

Speaker 1 Oh, that feels connected. During one interaction, the man reportedly asked residents if they had heard any police sirens before wandering off into the dark woods behind the dorma territory.

Speaker 1 I'm sorry, what? Yeah. The fuck?

Speaker 1 Now, aside from the vague reports of like this strange fuck on campus. Sorry, imagine having that experience in college.

Speaker 1 Somebody knocks on your door and is like hey can i hear your phone did you hear any police sirens and then it's just like peace i need to go to the woods

Speaker 1 like the

Speaker 1 like what the i would i'd cry i'd i'd huddle in the corner and cry and not stop i'd be like police you need to surround the building yeah fbi everybody

Speaker 1 how do you go to sleep that night offend us everybody

Speaker 1 now aside from these like crazy vague reports of like this weirdo on campus there were no other unusual reports made that day or night and no one close to the couple including their two adult children

Speaker 1 could think of any reason why someone would want to hurt them let alone kill them oh that breaks your heart that you yeah you get to have your parents like for that long and that's how they see how it happens leave like that's terrible in their own home yeah that's so fucked up as far as their colleagues at dartmouth were concerned hoff and susanna zantop were among the most respected and beloved faculty on the entire campus that makes sense because again you look at pictures of them and you're like like they have such a welcoming energy

Speaker 1 even via photo yeah their vibes are correct So I can't imagine, like, I feel like walking into their classroom, you'd be like, oh, this is going to be a really good class. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Co-worker Susanna Hetchel told reporters, the first reason I wouldn't want to leave Dartmouth is that I wouldn't want to leave Susanna Zantop. Oh, like,

Speaker 1 wow. Come on.
Yeah, that's huge. Now, the murder of two well-loved professors wasn't the only thing on everyone's mind.
There was also the matter of their killer.

Speaker 1 But, like, this is a horrible situation, but who the fuck did this? Yeah. And is this random? Is this pointed? What is this? Now,

Speaker 1 situated along, like, the border of Vermont in an area of New Hampshire known as the Upper Valley, Hanover is a small town populated mostly by Dartmouth faculty, staff, and students.

Speaker 1 And like you said, it's like a small town. You saw like 900 people.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Now, this is, so like, Hanover is the, so that was Aetna. That was oh, oh, I see.
This is Hanover. Okay.
Um, where like Dartmouth faculty, staff, and students.

Speaker 1 You said, honey, I have another small town. I said, I have another small town.
It has a little over,

Speaker 1 it's not like small by definition. I would say it has a small town feel vibe.
Because it has a little over like 10,000 residents. Okay.

Speaker 1 It's one of the biggest towns in the region, in fact, but it does have that like homey, all-encompassing Dartmouth people kind of live here. Yeah.
Like college town vibes. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And because of the small town nature of the area, it seemed like the Zantops knew their killers. And if that were the case, it seemed equally likely the killers were still in the area.

Speaker 1 One One student told the press, the fact that it's two professors suggests it's someone closer to home. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So the prospect of a killer just walking around made everyone in and around Dartmouth pretty fucking uneasy. I'd imagine.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 So Dartmouth President James Wright told reporters, at the bottom line, we've lost two people whom we love and respect. A community such as ours has to find a way to grieve.

Speaker 1 And I think it's hard for us to do this under the circumstances because they can't. They can't properly grieve because they're also fucking terrified.
Terrified. That's such a mix of emotions.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And the fears and frustrations of this whole thing weren't just felt by people who worked with Hoff and Susanna. They also extended to the thousands of students who lived in and around the campus.

Speaker 1 Yeah. One Dartmouth junior said, people are just scared.
There's a lot of confusion about who, why, what.

Speaker 1 The confusion and frustration felt by everyone in Hanover and Aetna were due at least in part to the silence and very slow flow of information coming from the state and local police working the case as well.

Speaker 1 From the moment the news of the murders broke, officials on the case seemed pretty fucking hesitant to share much of anything with the local and regional press, and especially not residents of the town.

Speaker 1 Which is frustrating, but also likely a good thing. Yeah.

Speaker 1 State Attorney General Philip McLaughlin told reporters in the early days of the investigation, what you're going to find from me is a real reticence to discuss the details of this case.

Speaker 1 And I mean, sometimes you have to respect.

Speaker 1 I remember thinking, like, just like you were touched on it earlier, the Adahoe murders. Yeah.
I remember thinking, like, they're not saying anything. Like, why are they not giving any information?

Speaker 1 I remember being frustrated, but. It does have a way of working out.

Speaker 1 And you, it's hard, but you just have to kind of believe in the local law enforcement that they're going to do what they need to do.

Speaker 1 Sometimes it's for the best and sometimes it gets them where they need to go. Right.
Because especially in the age of like the internet and social media, it can fuck up an investigation like that.

Speaker 1 So easy. I mean, look at how it all shaked out, you know, with like the Idaho investigation.
Those poor roommates.

Speaker 1 Oh, they got villainized immediately. And re-traumatized in a hundred different ways by people on social media saying that they were the killers.
Right. Exactly.

Speaker 1 Or that they knew something. Social media has really, it can do great things.
But it's a detriment at this point. But it's more of a detriment at this point like so they especially now

Speaker 1 like investigators have to be careful what they share because it will get fucked up on the interwebs and it's like it's just the way it is and back here in the early days of everything they were still doing that just to make sure that town gossip didn't fuck everybody because it's like a real life social media you know yeah no

Speaker 1 According to McLaughlin, the silence from investigators in the AG's office was exclusively for the purpose of maintaining the integrity of investigators. Like we were just saying.

Speaker 1 But obviously, that didn't make reporters or anyone else feel any safer. No.
And I mean, you're a reporter, you want to report on the goings on.

Speaker 1 Now, while the state attorney general's office did its best to dodge questions about the investigation and trooper Chuck West worked to track down the seller of the murder weapons, the remaining detectives started digging deeper into Hoff and Susanna's backgrounds.

Speaker 1 As far as they could tell, both were teachers of the utmost integrity, and it seemed that whatever had motivated someone to kill them, it didn't have anything to do with their work at Dartmouth.

Speaker 1 With professional problems ruled out, that left only their personal lives.

Speaker 1 After all, when it comes to murder, there really aren't that many reasons that someone's going to go so far to kill someone, especially that brutally.

Speaker 1 And detectives had already ruled out the biggest. Now, Hoff and Susanna Zantop were born in Germany at the end of World War II, and their early lives were pretty ordinary, actually.

Speaker 1 Hoff's brother Wolf recalled his brother as, quote, a normal young man, not the fastest, not the smartest, but he would work harder.

Speaker 1 In 1960, Hoff earned a degree in geology in Germany, then traveled to the U.S., where he earned a PhD in geology

Speaker 1 from Stanford University. Okay, Hoff.
In 1965, work harder, he said. Yeah, I got that.
Seriously. It was during that period of his life that he met Susanna, who was also studying at Stanford.

Speaker 1 Susanna graduated with her master's degree in political science in 1964. Okay, girl.
And that's when Hoff took a job with a mining company and the couple relocated to South America, actually. Oh, wow.

Speaker 1 Five years later, they were married,

Speaker 1 very much to the delight of their respective families who thought they, quote, made a beautiful couple. Oh, they did.
They did. Can confirm.
They really did.

Speaker 1 A few years after their marriage, they had their first child, a daughter they named Veronica. And it's Veronica with a K.
Ooh, I love that. I think Veronica is such a a cool girl name.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And a second daughter, Mariana, followed two years later. Oh, two days later.
It was crazy. Whoa.

Speaker 1 By the mid-1970s, Hoff had grown tired of working in the corporate world and hoped that a career in academia would not only allow him to pursue his passion for research, he loved research,

Speaker 1 but also he wanted to spend more time with his wife and daughters. Oh, and he was hoping that that would allow him to do that.
We fucking love a girl dad. We love a girl dad.

Speaker 1 Girl dad, like all dads are special. For sure.
Most of them. But

Speaker 1 girl dads. I'm married to a girl dad, so I just have a special place for girl dads.
I hope Drew becomes a girl dad. But I'll take any kid.
Yeah, a good dad. Yeah, just a good dad.

Speaker 1 Now, in 1976, Hoff accepted a position in the Earth Sciences Department at Dartmouth College, where he would spend the next 25 years.

Speaker 1 Throughout this period, Susanna focused most of her attention on raising her two daughters.

Speaker 1 Eventually, once the girls required a little less of her time they got a little older susanna began taking graduate courses in comparative literature at harvard oh okay earning her phd in 1984 so she has her master's from stanford university and she has her phd from harvard university all while being a mama wow yeah women yeah women susanna susanna like it kills me how awesome these people were were.

Speaker 1 Like, it kills me. It's usually the case.
Yeah. It's just like

Speaker 1 why fuck Wad takes them out. Oh, yeah.
I just have a feeling. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So the degree opened a lot of new professional doors for Susanna. And a short time later, she joined the faculty at Dartmouth as a professor of German and comparative literature.
Cool.

Speaker 1 She quickly became. one of the most invaluable members of Dartmouth's faculty.
And like her husband, she was among the most popular professors on campus my students. That's so cool.

Speaker 1 Fellow Lit professor Bruce Duncan said she was an important mentor to many students, particularly women. Yeah, she just has that vibe.

Speaker 1 More than just mentors, the Xantops became known around campus as some of the most supportive faculty at the school as well.

Speaker 1 Audrey McCollum recalled later they would offer shelter for troubled people for various different kinds of reasons on a temporary basis. Wow.
Welcome them into their home. fucking home.

Speaker 1 Oh, this makes me so nervous. But their kindness and compassion wasn't just limited to students.
Hoff and Susanna seemed to collect friends literally everywhere they went. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Everyone wanted to be a part of them. They were just that, those kind of people.

Speaker 1 And within a few years, their home became a regular gathering place for dinner parties, celebrations, social gatherings.

Speaker 1 That house was fucking lively, happy, and like full of love. You can,

Speaker 1 It translates through the story. Like you can feel it.
And it kills me that's

Speaker 1 that like these demons turned it into something so different. It's like, how fucking dare you infiltrate these people in their lives? Jealousy.

Speaker 1 So to nearly everyone who knew them, Hoff and Susanna were an ideal couple, a genuine partnership that literally operated on mutual respect and shared responsibility and love. Yeah.
That's it.

Speaker 1 But of course,

Speaker 1 they were just like a natural fit, it seemed to everybody. But there were some times when people were like, they didn't seem like a natural fit just because they could be a little different.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 But I think that makes them more of a natural fit, to be honest. I think, like, we've said it before, opposites kind of attract.

Speaker 1 Yeah, like, even if they're not fully opposite, they have their differences. Just things that like complement each other.
Right.

Speaker 1 Like, Hoff was methodical, detail-oriented, a little rigid in his personality sometimes. Susanna, on the other hand, was more energetic, outgoing, very passionate in her work and her home life.

Speaker 1 One friend said, what they had in common was their endless generosity, the openness of their home, their commitment to social justice, and the high standards they set for themselves. Hell yeah.

Speaker 1 The couple's close friend, Marianne Hirsch, viewed their differences as, like we just said, more complimentary than anything else.

Speaker 1 She said, their mutual devotion was based on the respect they held for each other's way of being. Nice.

Speaker 1 That part I love, the respect they had for each other's way of being right they never they didn't try to change each other no they just respected who the other person was and it worked that's a that's a that's love yeah that's top-tier relationship that's real love so despite the seemingly endless string of absolutely glowing reviews and character profiles of the couple detectives on the case couldn't help but notice that everyone seemed to point out like we just said how different they were from each other okay and i think that's the only thing anybody could point point out.

Speaker 1 After two weeks of very little progress and no new leads, they began to wonder, were those differences a strength in the relationship like so many were suggesting?

Speaker 1 Or maybe were they a source of tension? Like they just had to consider all these things. Okay.

Speaker 1 Captain Nick Giacone said, they had so many contacts here in Hanover and literally around the world.

Speaker 1 And he said, in a thorough investigation, we have to look basically at their entire lives. Yeah.

Speaker 1 With all their contacts and new friends being made all the time, investigators had to wonder, had one of those new friends managed to penetrate the unbreakable bond between them, perhaps?

Speaker 1 I see where they're heading. They're trying to go down some path.
Yeah, I mean, when there's no path, you got to go down some, you got to forge one, you know?

Speaker 1 Now, given the brutality of the crimes and the fact that little, if anything, had been taken from the house, investigators started to think, okay, so we're thinking this might be personal.

Speaker 1 Maybe it's a crime of passion. Right.

Speaker 1 Also, they further theorized that because, quote, the weapon that was used was heavy and they didn't think a a woman would have used it, the killer was likely a man. Okay.

Speaker 1 So they're starting to think like she's having some kind of a fear, basically. Which also I'm like, a woman can carry heavy things, but like, okay.
Yeah. Like, sure.
Very 2001 of you.

Speaker 1 Like, I guess we have to go somewhere here.

Speaker 1 Now, whether or not investigators intended to imply anything about the way the case was taking shape, their comments to the press about looking into the Xantops' personal lives and about the murders being a crime of passion.

Speaker 1 People are going to run with that. They were interpreted by at least some journalists exactly how you did, meaning related to immidality.
Pretty heavy-handed. Yeah, it definitely is.

Speaker 1 A reporter for the Boston Globe wrote, hey,

Speaker 1 detectives declined to describe or identify in any way the woman they believe had an affair with Hoff Zantop or the relationship between the woman and the presumed killer.

Speaker 1 So it's, I think they're basically saying like, yeah.

Speaker 1 So they think at this point, at least they thought Hoff was having an affair and that some woman like hired somebody to do do this kind of thing yeah i think maybe they're i don't think they know what they're doing here to be honest it sounds very messy and it sounds very like counterintuitive yeah to be quite honest yeah um vague language nonwith nonwithstanding here it's clear that certain members of the press were under the impression that the working theory like you said was that Hoff was having an affair with a woman and the murders were retribution for that affair.

Speaker 1 Okay. That's really shitty.

Speaker 1 Yeah. To put that out there.
To put that out there. And remember, like there's two grieving daughters.
There's tons and tons of grieving

Speaker 1 shut up. And it's like, you don't know them.
And that's the thing. And these people are going to be able to do that.
I understand that they need to work with some theories and see how they pan out.

Speaker 1 Keep that close to the. I was going to say, you're keeping everything else quiet.
Shut the fuck up about that. What are you doing putting that out there? Because once it's out there, it's out there.

Speaker 1 You can't take that back. Yeah.
And it's like... And you're not going to change certain people's minds either.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And you have these two daughters, and they're sitting there having to probably defend against this. And it's like, like that's the last thing they need to do.

Speaker 1 Yeah, with everything else they have going on.

Speaker 1 Now, in the months and years that followed, the question of an extramarital affair would become a subject of considerable controversy with regard to the murder of the Xantops.

Speaker 1 Yeah, the day the article was published, the editors of the paper received multiple calls from investigators and the New Hampshire Attorney General, all questioning the source of the information and the reliability of the anonymous source quoted in the paper.

Speaker 1 In fact, just one week later, the Globe would publish a follow-up editorial justifying the original article. Oh.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Editor Matthew Storin wrote, Last Friday, the Globe published a front-page story that said investigators were focusing on an extramarital affair involving Hoff Zantop as a likely motive.

Speaker 1 And it continued, it was and still is our intent to provide readers with the most complete and accurate account possible of the ongoing Zantop murder investigation.

Speaker 1 To do so, we put our trust in three law enforcement officials who we have had, we have every reason to believe had intimate, up-to-date knowledge of the investigation.

Speaker 1 It was certainly never our intent to increase the suffering of the Zantop family. You did, though.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Their friends or the Dartmouth College community, and we express regret for the pain our story undoubtedly caused them. I'm glad they did that.
I'm glad. And I'm also honest.
I don't know.

Speaker 1 Maybe think. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Maybe think. We've all made mistakes.
For sure. We've all done shit like that.
For sure. And I have, I'm very glad that they did that.
Because a lot of people said, we should not have said that.

Speaker 1 A lot of papers wouldn't. No, they wouldn't.
Wouldn't do that. They'd be like, well, it's our journalistic integrity.
So we're not going to go against that.

Speaker 1 Exactly. Now, setting aside the fact that Storn's note never explicitly apologizes for publishing what was ultimately determined to be false and potentially slanderous information.
I had a feeling.

Speaker 1 It was false. Everybody had a feeling.
Of course it was, which I know you knew that whole time because I made it pretty clear. Yeah.

Speaker 1 But it's pretty problematic because just one day after the article was published, law enforcement officials announced the identity of their primary suspect. Oh.

Speaker 1 And he was far from the enraged, jealous husband the press had described. Okay.

Speaker 1 So it's like, not only did you publish something without verifying that information, because it's like, yeah, I know you said that you feel like you could trust this person and that they had intimate knowledge.

Speaker 1 That's a pretty big thing to throw out there. Yeah.
You got to be sure. And especially when obviously they had a completely different suspect.
That's the thing.

Speaker 1 It's like, and now you're losing it on your face. Yeah.
It's like, now it looks really bad. Now you don't look great.
Yeah. Maybe don't use that source again.
Yeah. Like, don't be using that source.

Speaker 1 And it's not good. So a lot of people thought that maybe the confusion over the investigation on the part of the press came from the silence from the investigators.

Speaker 1 But in defense of that silence, Attorney General Philip McLaughlin told a reporter, we've chosen to take this route in response to mistakes other agencies have made that became a detriment. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So they were seeing what was happening in other cases and they were trying to make adjustments to make sure they did not make the same mistakes. Yeah.
Which is good.

Speaker 1 Ironically, the silence they had hoped would protect the integrity of the case led to more confusion. But that wasn't on them.

Speaker 1 In the generation of countless false leads and useless tips from the public, all of which were just wasting a significant amount of time. Right.

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Speaker 1 Well, a certain amount of transparency would have gone a long way with the public at this point, just a little bit. But the thing is, there really wasn't a lot to tell.
At this point,

Speaker 1 within a week or two of the murders, the hunt for the owner of the SOG knives had produced a suspect.

Speaker 1 So they were, again, a week or two since the murders have happened, they already have a suspect. So those two weeks, they couldn't give anything because it's like they're in the thick of it.

Speaker 1 Clearly, they were gathering a lot and really working. And if they had released any of that, it could have shot that right off track.
And it's like they worked quick and they worked hard.

Speaker 1 And they were doing the handout. So investigators clearly did spend considerable time digging into the victims' backgrounds, hoping to find the killer's name there.

Speaker 1 But in the end, it was the evidence that led them to solve this case. It wasn't the background.
Okay.

Speaker 1 On the afternoon of February 15th, roughly two weeks into the search for the seller of SOG knives, detectives Chuck West finally got the break. He was looking.

Speaker 1 He found a seller in Vermont who identified the knives as coming from his store.

Speaker 1 I had a feeling that was where it was going to come from, just because there were so few sold at this point, like they were very recently starting to sell. Yeah.

Speaker 1 A few hours after Wes got confirmation, he received a call from the sheriff's office in Chelsea, Vermont, a small town just across the border from Hanover.

Speaker 1 And the information he had was a fucking bombshell. According to Captain Arnold Covey, the suspect New Hampshire investigators had been hunting for nearly a month was an

Speaker 1 irate husband or a murderous home invader, but a teenage boy. A teenager? A teenage boy.
So a student. A teenage boy.

Speaker 1 Covey added that as far as he knew, 16-year-old

Speaker 1 What? Jim Parker.

Speaker 1 Yeah, 16.

Speaker 1 They're college professors, aren't they? Yeah. So what? Yep.
Hello? He wasn't one of the local troublemakers and in fact had never been in trouble with the law

Speaker 1 or at school. He was never in trouble.
So he seemed an unlikely suspect at first. Yeah.
But the knife belonged to Parker. Okay.

Speaker 1 So Chuck West got in his car and headed out to Chelsea to speak with the boy and his parents because he's a fucking child.

Speaker 1 When sheriff's state troopers Robert Bruno and Russ Hubbard showed up at the Parker's house that afternoon, John Parker was surprised to say the least.

Speaker 1 He said, Jim had never been in any trouble before, so it came as a shock. to his parents when they heard the troopers were there to talk about a double homicide in New Hampshire.

Speaker 1 That would be shocking. Parker invited them into his kitchen, John, who is obviously his father.

Speaker 1 And Jim was sitting at the table, but he hadn't yet been introduced.

Speaker 1 And Robert Bruno immediately suspected the boy at the table was their suspect without even being just like with the body language or something, like the vibe in the room.

Speaker 1 Well, he said, not only did he seem particularly interested in their presence, but he also could barely contain his anxiety as soon as he saw the trooper. Huh.

Speaker 1 Later, Bruno would remember the way the veins in Jim's neck pulsed violently. Wow.
Reminding him of the movie Alien, he said. It was that pronounced.
Wow.

Speaker 1 According to Jim, he and his best friend Robert Tulloch had purchased the knives online and had intended to use them for camping and to build a fort, but they were too large and too uncomfortable to carry.

Speaker 1 Jim claimed that one day in early January, the two drove out to Burlington, where they planned to sell the knives at the Army Navy store.

Speaker 1 But a customer outside the store offered them more money than the store would, so they sold them to an anonymous buyer. Doubt it.

Speaker 1 As for the Xantop murder in Aetna, Jim told the troopers he hadn't heard about it.

Speaker 1 Which I'm like, which it's also like, I was there for that man. You were like, I live in Massachusetts and I knew about it.

Speaker 1 The more Bruno and Hubbard went over the story with Jim and his father, they began to notice small inconsistencies and changes in the details.

Speaker 1 Still, both men found it nearly impossible to believe that a fucking teenager could have caused the amount of absolute fucking chaos and havoc in the Zantop house.

Speaker 1 At most, they thought Jim could have been responsible for supplying the murder weapons. Yeah.
But that was about where it began and ended.

Speaker 1 Before leaving, the troopers asked if Jim would consent to being fingerprinted to compare his prints with the ones found at the scene, and he agreed he would go to the station and they all drove to the sheriff's department.

Speaker 1 Okay. At the sheriff's department, Jim made his formal statement in writing, adding more details about the supposed buyer than he'd given the troopers earlier.

Speaker 1 Now, so all of a sudden, that anonymous buyer is becoming more and more detailed. Yeah.

Speaker 1 He also appeared to minimize his relationship with Robert Tulloch, implying he was more of a casual acquaintance. Oh, okay.
In the interview room.

Speaker 1 Casual acquaintance that you're going to go fucking make a fort making with. Yeah, no big deal.
For sure.

Speaker 1 In the interview room, Chuck Wes didn't waste any time confronting him about what he felt was a false statement about the knives. Yeah.

Speaker 1 The thing was, like Bruno and Hubbert, Wes couldn't imagine that a 16-year-old was the killer.

Speaker 1 So he focused in on the supposed buyer of the knives, thinking that maybe Jim was covering for someone else. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 Eventually, Wes got around to asking Jim if he had an alibi for the day of the murder, and he claimed that he worked until the afternoon. Then he and Robert Tulloch went to the movies.

Speaker 1 That was his alibi.

Speaker 1 You got your ticket, Stubbs?

Speaker 1 While Wes questioned Jim Parker at the sheriff's office, Bruno and Hubbard went to the Tulloch house, where they were invited inside by Robert's mother and father, Diane and Mike.

Speaker 1 Like John Parker, Diane and Mike Tulloch were very surprised to find their son was somehow connected to a murder investigation, but the story about the knives sounded to Diane like, quote, another one of Jim and Robert's stupid things.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 A few months earlier, Robert had asked his mother to use her credit card to buy a pair of shoes, and she was furious to find that instead of shoes, he'd purchased two stun master stun guns from an online store.

Speaker 1 What?

Speaker 1 I'm sorry. Why is your child buying weapons?

Speaker 1 What? And like

Speaker 1 you're getting stun guns. And that's not concerning? She wasn't concerned? Like, I'd be pretty concerned.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 When the troopers sat down with Robert, they were surprised by how different he was from his friend counterpart or casual acquaintance, as Jim was saying. Sure.

Speaker 1 Only one year older than Jim Parker, Robert Tulloch was far more articulate, considerate, and showed none of the signs of anxiety that Bruno had noticed in Jim Parker. Okay.

Speaker 1 So Robert recounted the story about buying the knives online, finding them cumbersome, but he was much hazier when it came to the details. Uh-huh.

Speaker 1 According to Robert, Jim was the one who handled that knife sale to the guy outside of the Army

Speaker 1 Navy store. So he couldn't really remember anything about him because he was like, I didn't really handle that part.
Convenient. He was also uncertain about the dates and times of the sale.

Speaker 1 Also convenient. While they were talking, Bruno noticed that Robert had a bandage on his leg.
and asked the boy about it. My jaw just opened, by the way.

Speaker 1 Robert told the troopers he and Jim were rock climbers and he cut his leg a few weeks earlier on a maple tree rock climbing acquaintances that is yeah just casual yeah this was the story he'd told just about anyone else who'd asked about it so he figured it would be easily corroborated if the troopers wanted to check his story obviously robert's story more or less matched what they had been told by jim parker so the troopers saw no reason to disbelieve him Okay.

Speaker 1 Before leaving, they asked if he would be willing to go to the sheriff's office to have his fingerprints taken, and he said, sure. Okay.

Speaker 1 They also wanted to take a look at robert's footwear he had in the house because remember boots yeah boots the boy went upstairs to his bedroom and came back with a pair of nike sneakers and a pair of vasque khiking boots

Speaker 1 the same style brand and size as the bloody boot print discovered at the crime scene i'm like meanwhile why aren't you shitting yourself right now yeah The troopers asked whether they could take the boots with them, and Robert agreed, with the stipulation that he would eventually get them back.

Speaker 1 Maybe the confidence here. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Despite the evidence pointing towards Jim and Robert as the most likely suspects, investigators still could not get themselves to believe that two fucking teenagers had savagely murdered the Xantops.

Speaker 1 Not only that, and for why? Well, that's the biggest question in my mind. And the other question is, how the fuck are they even connected? Yeah.

Speaker 1 So, at most, they thought the boys could lead them to the real killer. Like, maybe they were covering for someone.

Speaker 1 So, after getting their fingerprints and taking their formal statements, they were both allowed to leave with their parents.

Speaker 1 That night, after their parents went to bed, Robert and Jim each grabbed a backpack and began filling it with whatever they thought would be useful. Stop.

Speaker 1 Fishing gear, pens and pencils, a compass, and clothing. They had already talked about what they would do if the police started focusing in on them, and the time had come for them to go on the run.

Speaker 1 Stop! Yep. What?

Speaker 1 Yep.

Speaker 1 Before leaving the house to meet Robert, Jim tore a piece of paper from a notebook and scrawled a note to his parents that said, I just had to talk to Robert alone. I will be back in the morning.

Speaker 1 Don't call cops.

Speaker 1 If the evidence had already pointed towards Robert Tulloch and Jim Parker before, the running that they had gone on the motherfucking run, they'd gone on the yam

Speaker 1 would certainly make investigators think twice about their innocence now. Uh-huh.
And their parents, too.

Speaker 1 But that wasn't the only problem. In his haste to pack a bag and get out of the house, Robert had forgotten to get the knives from their fucking hiding place in the house.
If detectives found those

Speaker 1 detectives found those, it would completely destroy their alibi and conclusively link them to the murders of Hoff and Susanna.

Speaker 1 Now, when John Parker, Jim Parker's father,

Speaker 1 woke to find his son gone, he immediately went to the phone and called the police. Good.
And by 11 a.m., a manhunt was underway.

Speaker 1 In their initial statement to the press, investigators were very careful about how they frame the story, conscious of how things had been misinterpreted in the past, yet they were clear that Robert Tulloch was being sought on two counts of first-degree murder in connection with the killings.

Speaker 1 By the next day, investigators had matched both of their fingerprints to those found in the Zantop house, and had also matched Robert Tulloch's hiking boots to the boot print left behind at the scene.

Speaker 1 Yup. As far as the detectives were concerned, there was no question about it.
Hoff and Susanna Zantop were murdered. by two teenagers.
What the hell?

Speaker 1 To everyone who knew them, the news was fucking shocking, if not impossible to believe. One friend told a reporter, Dartmouth to Chelsea doesn't seem like a long ways.

Speaker 1 Jimmy Parker was the class clown of the school. And another person said, everyone loved him.
Wow. Like investigators just days earlier said,

Speaker 1 everyone in Chelsea found it impossible to believe that these two smart, likable young men would have been capable of a brutal murder, much less two brutal muters and a savage home invasion.

Speaker 1 And when it came to public belief and acceptance, investigators didn't do themselves any favors because they were silent on criminal, on critical elements of the case.

Speaker 1 And it kind of hindered the public's ability to help locate the suspects because they weren't really giving anything. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Regardless of the silence, Robert and Jim's attempt to avoid responsibility for what they did finally came to an end three days later. I'm surprised they made it that far.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 At an Indiana truck stop. Wow.
Yeah, they got far. They did.
When a call from the pair was intercepted on a CB radio channel looking for a ride. Shut the fuck up.

Speaker 1 According to the press, when they were picked up by police in Indiana, the boys were, quote, so weary and rattled that one gave his birth date as May 40th.

Speaker 1 What?

Speaker 1 He was so tired. What? To Robert Tulloch, the game seemed to have reached its end.

Speaker 1 After being arrested, he waived his extradition rights and was immediately transported back to New Hampshire, where he was arraigned on two counts of first-degree murder.

Speaker 1 Jim Parker, though, attempted to stall his extradition.

Speaker 1 John Parker said of his son, he's scared to death of the legal system. He's scared to death of things most 16-year-olds and their wildest imaginations can't even fathom.

Speaker 1 But despite his efforts to stall, he was extradited, dried back to New Hampshire a few days later. It doesn't sound like he was scared to stab the life out of somebody.

Speaker 1 So I really don't care about scared. And he was arraigned on first-degree murder charges as well.
Although it might be difficult to imagine it now.

Speaker 1 In 2001, again, like I was saying, it was a different time. Yeah.

Speaker 1 The American public still struggled with accepting the belief that teenagers could be capable of something so fucking cruel and brutal like this murder. Yeah.

Speaker 1 However, after a thorough search of the Tulloch home turned up a wealth of new information, a clearer picture of Robert Tulloch was emerging.

Speaker 1 And what it suggested was that he had a personality that was a lot darker than anyone knew. Okay.

Speaker 1 In an interview with the prosecutor's office, Jim Parker described he and his friend as, quote, explorers, but they decided on a life of crime after concluding that every place had been explored.

Speaker 1 I want you to really let that marinate.

Speaker 1 What? Really let that one sit.

Speaker 1 You're not an explorer. I think every place is expensive.
Everything has been explored, so I think we should just murder people.

Speaker 1 That's the thought process. There is nothing more to that thought process.
You know what? That to that.

Speaker 1 A straight line from we should explore places to we should brutally murder people the frontal lobe is so important so frontal lobe is so important vital one might say it's got we got to figure out how to make it we gotta figure it out grow faster or we gotta keep people in boxes until it fucking develops yeah because like what the fuck is that I mean I think that's the whole idea what's that living with your parents for as long as you do yeah stay in that box figure it out

Speaker 1 In his statement, Parker explained how Robert had developed a hatred for the United States, among other things, and the pair concocted a convoluted and very childish plan to rob enough people to get however much money they needed to leave the country and travel to Australia.

Speaker 1 This is so juvenile. It also reminds me of like,

Speaker 1 what's his name's Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad Day. I'm moving to Australia.
Alexander. Alexander's no good, very bad day.
It's like, I'm mad at everything, so I'm going to Australia. What?

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's the thing. It's such a juvenile thought.
It is, but also absolutely diabolical. Because it's like, Australia's going to eat your ass alive.
Are you kidding me?

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's where they send convicts because they couldn't send them anywhere else. Have you met Australia? He has.
Have you met Australians? They're going to put up with your bullshit. Nay, no way.

Speaker 1 Nor, I know my, I know my Australian listeners. You said, fuck that.
They would have given a watch your dumbasses. Right out of there, idiots.

Speaker 1 I can't believe, like, I don't like it here anymore. So I'm going to go.
So we're going to rob my way to Australia. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And the fact that two people were like, yep, sounds good. Yeah.
Totally. Let's shake on it.
Yep.

Speaker 1 So Parker said, we assumed it would be a couple, and somebody might have to go somewhere else and grab the other person and bring them into the same room.

Speaker 1 And if there were any kids, we would have to do the same thing. That's nice.
So they were just going to like, fuck, terrorize.

Speaker 1 Terrorize an entire family. Cool.
Awesome. That's what they figured.
You know, that's what they were figuring. Good.

Speaker 1 According to the indictment, Robert and Jim had spent nearly six months talking about killing.

Speaker 1 And on at least four four occasions prior to January 2001, they stopped at random houses, quote, intending to steal bank cards and leave the occupants dead. So they were planning this for a long time.

Speaker 1 Wow. According to the indictment as well, one of those houses was that of Bob and Audrey McCollum.
Oh, wow. The Zantophagiers.

Speaker 1 It was the last of those attempts on January 27th, 2001, that they found the Zantop house, where they murdered the two beloved professors.

Speaker 1 In the previous attempts, the boys were always denied entry when they knocked on the door.

Speaker 1 It was only because Hoff and Susanna Zantop were so fucking generous and so kind and compassionate that they were willing to allow the two into the house in the first place. Wow.

Speaker 1 They allowed them into their home.

Speaker 1 Just because of who they were

Speaker 1 and who their hearts were. Wow.
When Jim Parker was informed that the Attorney General intended to try him as a mother fucking adult for what he had done. Yeah, you did.

Speaker 1 Because that's some adult shit that you did. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

Speaker 1 Which also would make him eligible for the death penalty, which, oh, your dad said you were so scared of the legal system. Are you scared of being murdered by the legal system?

Speaker 1 Like I said, you're not scared to take the life of two people.

Speaker 1 Play stupid games. Yeah.
Win stupid prizes, my friend. Yep.

Speaker 1 So, of course, he made a deal in which he pled guilty to second-degree murder in exchange for his testifying against his friend, Robert Tulloch. Wow.
It always happens in the end. Tough guy.

Speaker 1 Always happens in the end. According to Parker, the murders and thefts were Robert's idea.

Speaker 1 On the day of the Zantop murders, the boys knocked on their door, pretending to be student researchers working on a project. Oh, wow.
So they even played

Speaker 1 on their

Speaker 1 professor. The Rus definitely appealed to Hoff Zantop, and he invited them into his home.
However, when Zantop criticized the two,

Speaker 1 according to them, quote unquote,

Speaker 1 for being unprepared for research, Tullich became irrationally angry.

Speaker 1 So I'm like, wait a second. So did you knock on their door to murder them and rob them, or did you knock on their door to be actual researchers? Because why would you get irrationally angry

Speaker 1 at that when you intended to murder them anyway? Because he clearly has some kind of problem.

Speaker 1 When Hoff turned his back to retrieve something from his desk, Tullik pulled out his SOG knife and began brutally stabbing Hoff in the chest, stomach, and face. Wow.

Speaker 1 During the attack, the knife slipped and Robert ended up cutting his own leg as well. I hope it hurts so fucking badly.
Leaving blood on the carpet outside the study.

Speaker 1 And when she heard the commotion, Susanna ran to see what was happening, which was when Tulloch shouted to Parker to, quote, slit her throat. Oh my god.

Speaker 1 After killing the Xantops, Robert and Jim ransacked the office, ultimately stealing a few hundred dollars from Hoff's wallet before leaving. And then they just went went home.

Speaker 1 It was only later, when they were miles away from the scene, that Robert realized that they had left the fucking knife sheaths behind at the house. You fucking

Speaker 1 fucking stupid. They then drove back to retrieve them.

Speaker 1 But by the time they arrived at the house, the police were already at the scene. Are you kidding me? So they showed back up.
Are you fucking kidding me? So they just went home.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Along the way, they stopped by a river to wash the blood off their bodies and burn some of their clothes. It is maddening how

Speaker 1 just like trivial that their entire plan is. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah. It really is.
It's infuriating.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I'm so angry right now that these two beloved professors who gave their hearts to their students, sheltered people in their home, traveled the world together, had two beautiful Julia.

Speaker 1 These fucking incredible people were taken off of this earth by two nimwits. Two bumbling fuckheads.
Road bums. Road bums.

Speaker 1 Because that actually genuinely, that makes me so. And I can't imagine.

Speaker 1 I can't imagine how their daughters and their friends felt when they found out that it was, no matter who it was,

Speaker 1 but these two fucking 16-year-old peons.

Speaker 1 The anger that I would, I can't imagine. I'm angry right now.
I'm angry. And these aren't my parents or my friends.

Speaker 1 Because you want to go to Australia because this world, this fucking nation is not enough for you. Because you had a no good, very bad day, you fucking loser.
You've seen nothing yet. You're 16.

Speaker 1 You don't even pay bills, shithead. What an asshole.
Like true assholes. I need to know what happens to them.
I'm so pissed right now.

Speaker 1 Now, along with irrefutable evidence, Parker's confession all but ruled out the possibility of an acquittal for Robert Tulloch. Good.
So in in March 2002, he pled guilty to first-degree murder.

Speaker 1 The next month, both of them appeared in Grafton County Superior Court for sentencing, where Tulloch was sentenced to a mandatory life sentence without the possibility of parole. Good.

Speaker 1 And Parker was sentenced to 25 years to life with a minimum of 16 years before becoming eligible for parole. Deep in.

Speaker 1 Robert Tulloch sat completely emotionless when the sentences were read by the judge, but Parker cried. Why,

Speaker 1 openly wept. You literally murdered a woman.
I don't want to hear it. it.
Yeah. If I was the judge, I'd be like, bang, bang, get it together.
Yeah. Get it together.
No one wants to see it.

Speaker 1 Humanitarians' choice. Yeah.
When he was asked if there was anything he wanted to say on his, on his behalf, Parker said, there's not much I can say. I'm just really sorry.

Speaker 1 There's not much you can say. Good.
Spend the next 25 years to life figuring out what to say. And when they asked Robert Talik the same thing, he said nothing.
What a piece of shit.

Speaker 1 Now, despite being held in the same prison, Jim and Robert rarely interacted with one another in the prison.

Speaker 1 On April 18th, 2024,

Speaker 1 after serving 22 years of his sentence in the New Hampshire State Prison for Men, Jim Parker was granted parole and was released in June of that year. Wow.

Speaker 1 But he is required to have regular meetings with a representative from the parole office until 2098. Good.

Speaker 1 In 2012, the United States Supreme Court ruled in Miller versus Alabama that mandatory life sentences for crimes committed by juvenile offenders were unconstitutional, requiring states to review all rulings of juveniles sentenced to life in prison.

Speaker 1 A few years later, in 2014, the New Hampshire Attorney General's Office announced that Tulloch's case would be among those under review for potential resentencing. I don't think this one applies.

Speaker 1 This did not necessarily require all offenders to be re-sentenced.

Speaker 1 It just required states to consider the evidence and make a convincing argument if they wanted to uphold the life sentence without parole.

Speaker 1 Tullech's case was argued back and forth for several years until April of 2025, this year, when the state Supreme Court unanimously declined to hear the case. Chin Chin.
Effectively

Speaker 1 upholding the sentence of life without parole. Yeah, this murder was fully planned out, fully like.

Speaker 1 Executed. These two people lost their lives because this motherfucker had a very good, terrible, no-good day and wanted to go to Australia.

Speaker 1 Good. I hope you're having a very terrible no-good day and you long for Australia every day that you open your eyes in Britain.
Truly. You piece of shit.

Speaker 1 Because as of now, there's little to no chance Robert Tulloch will ever be released from. He doesn't deserve to be.
No, he doesn't. And honestly, I don't think the other kid did either.
No.

Speaker 1 That's bullshit. It is.

Speaker 1 Such a brutal case. The only thing I can say is that I hope where,

Speaker 1 what's his name, Jim Parker, where he wasn't like the ringleader. And obviously, he's a fucking follower.
Yeah. You hope that he figured out his shit in prison and plans to do better.

Speaker 1 Now that he's on the prison. It's been there for 22 years, I think.
It's like, you hope that he got it together.

Speaker 1 With the frontal lobe development, he learned how to lead and lead to do something good in life. Yeah.

Speaker 1 But, but fuck.

Speaker 1 Wow. I can't, but I had no idea how that was going to end.
And like, no matter what, it would have been absolutely horrible. But the fact that it's two 16-year-olds olds who were just

Speaker 1 whiny grumpy little bitches yeah and couldn't handle life here because it's so terrible i'm like it wasn't terrible then it's yeah it's pretty shitty now what do you think now it's also like you're pretty privileged you both live at home with your parents yeah

Speaker 1 it i that's infuriating yeah i feel so hard for for susanna and for hoff and for their kids yeah i can't imagine having to come to terms with your parents ever being murdered but to be murdered by two 16-year-olds who preyed on their kindness.

Speaker 1 Like,

Speaker 1 and their love of knowledge and academia and like just willingly like welcoming these two into their home. I am genuinely like actually so pissed off right now.
So that's the way that ended. Yeah.

Speaker 1 I never expected. I was too.
I was really pissed. Wow.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And there's like, you know, there's like videos from like the trial where like one of them is describing the whole series of events and it's just like you can't believe that this is a fucking teenager and they're just so disconnected from it.

Speaker 1 Like it's wild.

Speaker 1 And like Jim Parker clearly was just immature. Yeah.
And not just immature, but you know what I mean. I know what you're saying.
He has a very immature vibe about him. And

Speaker 1 he at least has emotions about it, which like shows

Speaker 1 remorse makes any of it okay.

Speaker 1 And Robert Tulloch, I think, just is clearly just just deserved to be in jail forever wow

Speaker 1 it's

Speaker 1 oh it's just so it's so upsetting i remember watching it unfold and being horrified by it you also feel for like their parents too because it's like they were shot

Speaker 1 totally side like talk about the rug being ripped out from underneath you totally side swiped by it

Speaker 1 i mean they never got they didn't get in trouble with in school they were in trouble with the law it's not like they that's why their fingerprints didn't come up

Speaker 1 and they were so beloved like in the community it sounds like like he was a class clown. Yeah, Jim Parker was like, Jim Parker was a class clown.
The fuck? That's crazy.

Speaker 1 It shows you, though, it's like anybody.

Speaker 1 It's so easy for someone to become a very dangerous follower of a very dangerous person. You just can't trust people.

Speaker 1 You got to really keep hold of your own convictions and not let other people sway it. Wow.
Because it's so sad. It really is.
That is a moving case.

Speaker 1 All cases are so moving, but that is a particularly moving case. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Wow. That was, I'm so angry right now.
Yeah, same.

Speaker 1 But with all that being said, we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird.

Speaker 1 You know not to keep it this weird. Yeah.
And if you don't, then just go away. Yeah, truly.
Not to Australia. They don't want you.
They don't want you.

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Speaker 1 Hey, listeners, I'm Ash. And I'm Elena.
And we are so excited to have joined the SiriusXM family.

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