Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 57: Live At The Fox Theater

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Hello

and welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia.

Okay, so see, every Wednesday we recap our old shows with all new commentary and updates and insights.

That's right.

And today we're recapping episode 57, which we've named, you're not going to believe this, we've named

live at the Fox Theater.

These live show titles are brilliant.

I'll say so myself.

I will say so myself.

Do it.

This episode came out February 23rd, 2017.

Almost 10 years ago.

No, no.

In two years.

Okay.

Thank you.

All right, let's get into the intro of episode that was only eight years ago, number 57.

Wow, you came

hi, Oakland.

What's up?

Wow.

This is so cool.

Should we scream really quick?

Oh, yeah, ready?

That does feel good.

Yeah, our friend.

That's good.

Our friend Lazy Cooperman told us that her secret before going on stage and not being nervous is to scream into her hand.

It's really

good.

Therapeutic.

I may have damaged my instrument a little bit, though.

This is fucking crazy.

Isn't it?

Hi.

Somebody tweeted a picture from the audience of the stage and the front, the frontest piece looks like Beyoncé from the Grammys, doesn't it?

Do you think she dressed up like the interior of the Fox theater on something like this?

Make me look...

Give me that Fox look, she said.

Who's here?

Who's from Oakland and who's from not Oakland?

Cheers!

Ask a seven-part question to kick it off.

We definitely want you to be yelling the whole time.

So let's see

who's from San Leandro, who's from Dublin.

This is Karen's fucking city, can you tell?

Top of the Hill Daily City, anybody?

Not me.

I mean,

they're from places.

Anyway, let's go.

We don't.

Oh, that was my cousin Stevie.

By the way, 110 of my family members are here tonight.

I love it.

I know I looked on our guest list and it was like, Kill Gareth, Kilgareth, Kill Gareth.

Yay!

Represent.

We represent in the Bay.

I

love it.

Lots of people do.

Should we do a quick outfit?

Um,

yes,

walk it across.

Let's do it.

Look at my uh, watch my tights.

Yes, yes.

There you go.

Those are cat tights if you can't see from the balcony.

You're little cats.

No, no, thank you.

No, I got what a yuka dress.

Pockets, pockets,

pockets.

I'll never stop yelling pockets at the top of my lungs.

We were having like a conversation backstage of like what's, you know, a serious one, and then she goes like this, and I'm like, oh, pockets, pockets.

Should we sit?

Do you want me to tell you a quick story about this dress?

Yes.

It's going to be fast.

It's going to be fast.

Always.

I'm not asking you.

I'm asking her.

We went to the outlet malls in Los Angeles.

We went to the Kate Spades store.

I walked in.

I was like, I have to get, oh, really quick.

Sidebar in the middle of the dress story.

Oakland, we just want you to know this is the first night of our tour.

We're starting it with you guys.

Right here.

Amazing.

Amazing.

Crazy.

Crazy.

Anyway, I'm at the Outlet Malls, Kate Spades store.

Had to get my tour long dress.

Has to be black.

That's the rule we made up that we're now stuck in permanently.

It sucks.

There's no black dresses, it turns out.

Constlattering.

Obsessively buying black dresses.

I go in.

I see a dress.

It's this one on the rack.

It fits me.

It's my size.

It has pockets.

I'm like, what the fuck?

God is with me.

I look at the price tag.

It says $219.

I was like, hey, listen, I'm going to wear it for what, 50 shows or something like that.

Are we doing one dress for all the shows?

Yes, the entire run.

Really?

These dresses are going to smell so bad when we're done.

That's true.

Imagine.

So

I'm like, hear my mother's voice in my head.

It's a key piece.

You're going to be able to wear it over and over again.

Right, right.

It's worth...

the money when you spend more you get more yeah so i'm like all right pat so i take the dress up to the counter put it on the counter.

This is the classic outlet sale, outlet store tail.

$79, motherfuckers!

Pockets, pockets, pockets, pockets, pockets.

We'll never say what it says.

She wondered if she just laughed.

She just kept walking.

Walking down Telegraph pockets.

Okay.

Let's see what else.

Are we really wearing these the whole thing?

No, no, no, we can't.

That's crazy.

We're actually going to wear them all weekend, though.

So if you see photos that look like it's here and you're like, I don't remember them doing that, it's because we're not.

We're just going to keep wearing them up and down the coast.

Yeah, but they're still going to smell really bad by Monday for sure.

Well, and then we can burn them in a piece like bitches.

Oh, we have an exclusive merch announcement.

Here's why.

Merch corner.

Oops, the shirts got corner, corner, corner, everybody.

Oops, yeah.

The shirts that are available tonight here at the Fox Theater in Oakland.

We're going to call them exclusive.

They're...

We're not calling them mistake shirts.

No.

They're exclusive.

They're exclusive to this weekend.

So if you were on the fence, I don't know, are people, then get, I mean, it's weird.

Get one.

Look.

It doesn't need to have our name on it to make it our shirt.

That's the thing.

And listen, it doesn't mean the name of the podcast on the front, nor anywhere.

It does it on the shirt.

Why reference the name of the show that the shirt belongs to?

And then like,

someone will see you in that, and like, you'll know they're in the know when they're like, I know what that's from, even though it doesn't say the name of what it is or the name of the hosts on it.

Or any name at all, really.

It's just some words.

Yeah, it's because we knew you guys were like, you know, everyone else needs our name on it because they're going to forget.

So exclusive merch tonight only.

And

tomorrow night.

And tomorrow.

Also tomorrow.

Sorry.

Weekend.

Exclusive merch.

It's a weekend shit merch.

Merch.

Super special merch.

Should we sit down?

Let's sit down.

Are we going to

not all forward?

Like, why have a table and then just sit out there?

I know I'm doing that.

That's weird.

We've never sat on these sides before.

Oh, should we switch it around?

I don't know.

Yeah.

It's just, you know.

This is, let's just make it right.

Yeah, there we go.

What's it called when you are?

So, okay.

We can't hear you and we don't want to know what you're saying.

That's how Karen works.

That's Karen.

I'm George.

Oh, yeah.

Hi.

Welcome to my favorite partner.

I shouldn't have done that.

Don't know why I did that.

All right.

Welcome to my allergies.

Before we start,

I do have one piece of news that might be exciting for everybody that I saw.

Somebody tweeted it to us secondhand from another murder you know.

You can now on Waze get Dateline's Keith Morrison's voice for your GPS.

Did you hear about that?

I want that.

Did you listen?

No, did you?

No, but I want it.

Could you imagine that creep telling you how to get around town?

It's hilarious.

I love it.

It's such a great idea.

I feel like I would prefer Lieutenant Joe Kenda, though.

That would be my...

Oh, man, really?

Yeah.

He's just so snarky the whole time.

Everything would be like a thing where one time I turned down this street and he's like, okay, Joe, just trying to get to Target.

I bet he says...

I bet he says flip a UE,

you know, instead of make a U-turn.

You can never go back, but turn left and then just keep going.

Oh, God.

At least it's not Nancy Gray's.

She went there.

One more thing, just really quick.

So I went home really quick to Petaluma, California to see the.

My god, what if my whole hometown came to see me at the far?

I thought you hated me.

So I was eating breakfast with my dad, dad and I said to my dad, hey, do you want me to get you a Murderino baseball hat?

And he goes, huh, how about you?

Yeah.

He goes,

how about you get me a shirt, but instead of a monogram, it's just got a little dead body on it.

And I texted her and I was like, guess what we're making next?

Yeah, I'm like, he just wants you to go get him a shirt somewhere else.

Yeah, he doesn't want one of you.

He might just need shirts.

Weirdly, my dad,

I saw him last weekend and he pointed to his hat, and it was a New York City hat.

And he's like, I'm ready for my trip to New York when you go there.

And I'm like, because you want to go see my show?

He's just like, no, I want to go to New York.

So I'm taking my dad to New York.

All right, Marty's coming.

Yeah.

Nice.

Yeah.

All right.

Right.

That's a good way to find out your dad's coming to your show.

Also, they have a, this is okay, they have a whole

vintage Ouija board display at the SFO airport.

What to say SFO airport and just say SFO?

You can say whatever you want.

It doesn't really matter.

It's like a huge, like a bunch of cabinets of really fucking old Ouija boards and the like.

It's awesome.

You can't touch them, can you?

No.

Don't touch those.

Oh, I love them.

That's bad luck.

Nah, that luck doesn't exist.

Oh, that's right.

I keep forgetting.

What else?

That kind of sounds rad, actually.

Yeah, that's gorgeous.

That's it.

You want to kick it off?

Let's get into this thing.

Let's do it.

Is it murder time?

All right, we're back.

We're back and we're planning our latest tour.

Just the moment of me telling everybody the price I thought I was going to pay on that dress and then the actual price and the absolute

ovation that we received from the future.

Murdering us love a bargain.

That's one thing about us is that how could we not love a bargain?

It's like we were in a commercial for like, you know, Kohl's or something.

And when they say what the bargain is, cheer for it.

Cheer.

Everybody cheers.

Maybe we'll get an integration going where it's like TJ Max's my favorite murder.

And then somebody comes up and scans.

You scan a tag and then it's like

and then the audience pops up and

cheers for you.

So stoked.

Well, it's really funny that we're recording this one today because this morning I literally started my tour dress shopping.

Oh, where'd you start it?

We're going to love it.

Play clothes in Burbank.

Are you going to have them make you something?

No, but you know what I'm talking about, right?

It's like one of the greatest vintage shops in town.

Burbank has like this secret little area of vintage clothing stores that just have treasures.

And so I tried on a bunch of dresses today.

Mostly leopard print?

I would do it.

A 60s leopard print?

That's, I mean, that would be incredible.

Yeah.

This is a consideration now.

We're going to go back on the road.

Are we going to do what we did before?

I think I'm going to bust out entirely from my clogs, rebellion against my sister and do something new with the shoe.

Are you?

I think, I don't think I'm going to do black, any black.

That's okay.

Like, I just think that's exciting.

Yeah.

Like, I just don't, I want to wear something a little more whimsical.

So that's what I'm looking for is something that makes me laugh a little bit, you know?

Okay.

Sure.

Like, that's fun.

Yeah.

Like something a woman going to a key party who's a little drunk on martinis and Capri cigarettes

would wear.

Awesome.

Okay.

That's your mood board.

Yeah.

What's yours?

I think I should go.

God.

So you're sorry.

Do you have a little bit of a 70s direction?

It's going to be between like 50s and

like late 70s.

Yeah.

If there's something 80s that's hilarious with shoulder pads, I'm not ashamed.

I'll do it.

So what are you doing?

Yeah.

What if I do turn of the century

and it's more like a, it's like a

field marm.

So I have one of those like, I have the dress that's like, yeah, the shirt that gets cinched at the top and then gets like, you get like a corset on the bottom.

And you have like tie-on pockets.

Yes.

Those tie-on pockets that they had back then that they put under their dress.

Yes, it's almost like there's skirts.

There's there's several layers of skirts and aprons.

Yes, like several that go on separately that someone has to help you fucking tie on yes and then a shawl that then a shawl that ties around the waist and in the back yeah and then you put the final apron over the top can i suggest an accessory sure a goat

just a live baby walk-on

but it's um i'm wearing a gorgeous $10,000 bracelet that the chain, the goat's chain is attached to my bracelet.

Or you can go turn of the last century and just go straight up 90s 1990s oh

what if you went i'm going turn of the century but it's a turn of the 21st so it's just what a choker some speed a loud voice um gold schlager yeah

um oh we'll make a fine pair camel wides let's do this stumbling on camel wides just stumbling on stage the two of us i mean i think the the way we stumbled on stage and i definitely remember this was the place where that um the backstage was so fancy like we were kind of blown away right in oakland right remember that yeah and your whole family was there yes

um and my cousin stevie afterwards told me that he did not know what he was going to and didn't understand

and then when he got there and when we walked out and the ovation we got made him cry um but then like that they listened to the podcast since they were saw it live.

That's, that's a, that's like a, you know, testament, I think.

It is.

It's like we sold, we sold him on it.

Yeah.

But he is, but he's actually Caitlin Claire-Dawson's number one fan.

I don't know if he is.

Oh, yeah.

He loves her and loved Tenfold's More Wicked and all of it.

So it's, they really became a podcast family after the fact, but I had to sell out the Fox Theater in Oakland before they

leave.

That's all it takes, folks, to get get your family to be proud of you.

Yes, that's right.

Just a little bit of show biz.

Wait, and this was this a show where not this one, but the second night Nora came out and did a cartwheel.

That's right.

That's what I was thinking of.

She definitely did a cartwheel on stage because we were like, you're never going to get a chance like this again.

Come out on stage.

Come and do it.

She did it.

It was eight years ago.

She was like.

12 or something.

Yep.

No, she was, she was like nine and now she's going to college.

Right.

Wow.

She's basically prepping right now to go move into the dorms.

Jesus.

So grace.

And I'm prepping to move into a retirement home.

And I'm not prepping for anything.

I'm just letting life take me where it's going to take me.

Here in the 90s, baby.

I actually am going to try to put an outfit idea together that would be, well, here's what it would be.

Why am I pretending that I have to think about it?

It would be way too short for my butt plaid mini skirt.

Yeah.

With

a giant safety pin, like giant ridiculous safety pin remember that like like a mini kilt for a girl yes and a baby doll t-shirt that says like my the one i loved so much which was the environment or no sorry i hate the environment um you know you get one of those yeah uh boots black tights socks that have runs in them yeah dock boots and a little cardigan sweater Lunchbox as your purse.

Lunchbox is a purse filled with drugs.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

We had that.

Berettes.

I brought

barretts.

Hell yeah.

Berettes that just sit on your hair because they're not really working.

Choker.

Choker.

Tongue ring,

maybe?

Not for me.

Belly button ring.

I mean, my dumb salmon tattoo.

I got a massage the other day and it was just like the first 10 minutes and it was such a great massage.

And then I remembered I have a salmon tattoo.

And I was like, I wanted to say something.

I'm like, don't say anything.

Just you have, it's just too bad for you.

I always forget it's there.

I forget my hearts are on my butt too.

It's just not my problem, you know?

Yeah, that's right.

It's not everybody else's problem.

I guarantee you she's seen way worse tattoos than that.

I guarantee you.

Like way, like that she should have been apologized to for.

And that's your salmon's not that.

My salmon is field and stream approved.

Anyway, we should be talking about this show.

All right, let's get on to the show.

Should we get started?

Yes.

We're about to get into Georgia's story.

This one is forgot that I've covered this.

That's how like bad this one is.

Then I was like, I'll never do this one.

And then I was looking at this and I'm like, oh, I've done this one.

At a live show.

What was I thinking?

Well, but also, you know what you were thinking?

We're a true crime podcast and we're going to tell these people true crime stories.

We didn't really understand that we could control the reception and the vibe.

But also it's a very relevant and very compelling local story totally it's yeah it's a very like every local knows it they want to hear it and so i did it and so she did it so now let's get into george's story about the speed freak killers

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Labor Day is the last sale of the summer, but this one is our biggest sale of the year.

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Who's first?

I'm first.

You're first.

I'm first this week.

All right.

This is a real fun one.

Don't look.

Why do you keep?

literally?

This piece of paper has been, anytime it's within two feet of me, she snatches it away and goes, Don't look.

It's like, I would look at the point of the podcast.

I'm not going to fucking sneak and read it and be like, uh-huh.

Because I would look.

I'm amazed I haven't looked at yours yet.

I've heard this already.

All right.

So

let's talk about two dudes who are total pieces of shit.

Great.

Also known as the speed freak killers.

Uh-oh.

Nobody.

We'll see.

Nobody knows about them.

Okay.

But the bunch of speed freaks in the audience are like, uh-oh, is it me?

They found me?

They found me.

Arrest this man.

And then they come in.

That would actually be an amazing end of the show.

That would be like a Phil Collins concert.

You saw me when you were drowning and you did not land a hand.

That's not how it goes.

I actually, there was like a kid who drove me here from my hotel who like, and I was telling him about the podcast that I was listening to about Boston Stranglers, and he was like, never heard of them.

And I'm like, oh, you're 21, and you don't know about murders.

Anyways,

he's about to.

Speed, freak.

Jared, listen up.

Was his name, Jared?

Lauren Herzog and Wesley Shermantine Jr.

were childhood friends.

They grew up.

on the same street, like right by each other in a farming town called Linden, California.

You fucked.

They, hold on.

They might actually just like the names of towns in California.

Is that what you're doing?

Woohoo.

It's like those people who eat, like, they're at a restaurant and someone else is getting sung happy birthday and they have to sing along with it too.

And you're like, do you?

They don't know you.

Okay, they grew up together.

It's 95 miles east of California.

They were hunters.

They graduated high school in 84 and they gained a reputation as meth users.

Hey, me too.

Not in 1984, though.

It's believed that Herzog and Shermantine began murdering people when they were around 18 or 19, although it's possible it started earlier than that, even.

So Shermantine would brag to his friends and families about making people disappear, which is what you want in a sibling.

Their family's like, I'm going to take that in the way that I choose to interpret it.

Oh, are you a magician?

You can make people disappear?

Finally, you have an interest that we can get into.

Maggie, you do it.

Do it.

Okay, their first known victim was in 1985.

A 16-year-old Stockton, California girl named Chevy Wheeler

disappeared,

says.

She had been dating 19-year-old Wesley.

and had ditched school that day to hang out with him.

Don't hang out with your 19-year-old boyfriend when you ditch your school, ma'am.

Be cool, stand school.

Then you'll get to be this one.

No, we dropped out of college.

Really didn't finish any school at all.

Skin of my teeth.

Okay, so then.

So she had been dating him, she left to hang out with him,

never seen again.

Her blood was found in his cabin that he had.

But the district attorney didn't think the DNA evidence was definitive.

So, nope.

Well, he's the one that would know

in 1984.

No.

It's just splatter, willy-nilly.

Blood is meaningless to me.

Yeah, I know.

I'm like, what does it mean, you know?

So, and then in 98, so that was 85.

Now we're in 98, and then Cindy Vanderheyden, she's 25 of the San Joaquin Valley, disappears from the Linden Bar Inn, which sounds like a fucking dive bar that you don't want to be in.

You mean if, like, the inn, I-N-N, at the end of any bar, you don't go there.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

No.

She had been seen seen talking to Lauren and Wesley, and actually, Lauren had dated her older sister, so they knew each other, and supposedly they all left together, the three of them.

Then her car is found by her dad the next day, like outside of local cemetery.

It's like a new car, and the dad was like, what the fuck is her car doing there?

And like, they panic, and it's really sad.

Then, so she disappears, and

then the cops are like, wait a second, he has something to do, Wesley has something to do with Cindy's disappearance, and they were like, 13 years later, earlier, this other one, they're like putting the pieces together.

So they can't get his DNA, but they repossess his car when he doesn't pay for it, pay the payments, and they fucking swab that shit.

All that meaningless DNA is suddenly realized.

Suddenly, it's 98, and people give a shit.

Hi.

Okay, can I tell you about his tattoos real quick?

Please.

Lauren had made and fueled by hate and restrained by reality.

Sorry, say it again.

Made and fueled by hate and restrained by reality.

But he's already killed two people?

Yeah, so he's not being restrained by anything.

Sounds like our government.

Also,

that's why I whispered that.

I didn't know what you said.

Oh, I said sounds like our government.

Oh.

Then I get shot.

Send hate mail to Georgia at Georgia

I just wondered what the picture underneath that phrase was like a just like a fun like a seal with a ball on its nose or something I don't know like a baby chick

Just like the Notre Dame Irishman

Restrained by reality you know it was a Tasmanian devil

And he's wearing cutoff jeans.

Totally.

Yes, just all mad.

He also had a tattoo on his right foot that said, made the devil do it.

Made the devil do it?

Yeah,

unless I'm,

no, I copied and pasted that.

Made the devil do it.

So his foot made the devil do something?

Apparently.

The devil's like, dude, I'm good.

Don't involve me in your bullshit, the devil said.

I can do it without meth.

And so.

I don't even, so da-da-da.

He's okay.

This motherfucker was married with children, of course.

And then he offers to give DNA once they start looking into Wesley, his buddy Wesley.

So the police pick him up, they're going to bring him to the station, and in the car on the way to the station, he starts fucking crying and asks what he can do to get out of this.

Wait, he may have been crying about those tattoos, though.

Fair enough.

I don't even like the Tasmanian devil anymore.

I was made by hate.

It feels bad to hate.

So

he gets interrogated for 17 hours, confesses to the murder of Cindy.

He says that they met her at a bar.

They were were gonna go do drugs.

Wesley did everything, attempts to rape her, she resists, they pull over, bad things happen.

And

he, so,

Lauren was like stabbing Cindy, or Lauren said that when Wesley was stabbing Cindy, he said, just let it come natural.

I know.

He told detectives that Wesley was responsible for at least 24 murders.

Holy shit.

He doesn't confess to anything himself, though, and just makes it seem like he's an accomplice.

Of course.

Sure.

You're just standing by.

by.

Yeah, hanging out.

A murder again.

I wanted to go to David Buster's.

God damn it.

He said they could go after, so I said, okay.

All right.

So next day, Wesley's arrested.

Lauren keeps talking, tells him about the 84 killing spree that they just shot two fucking random dudes who were like hanging out outside their car.

And he confesses to killing a man, a 41-year-old man named Henry Howell.

He's at the side of his road with his broken car, and they just go up and shoot him.

It's in 1984 in Hope Valley.

In 2000, 34-year-old Wesley goes on trial for four murders, but Lauren's confession of what happened, his 17-hour

interrogation, is inadmissible because the tape couldn't be cross-examined.

Mm-hmm.

The jury finds him guilty, though, of first-degree murder in all four cases.

He's offered a deal to sentence things that the death penalty would be off the table if they told him where the bodies of Sidney and Chevy were, but he also wanted the $20,000 reward that had been offered for their whereabouts.

Sure, absolutely.

We found them.

You should absolutely get $20,000 of the reward for finding you, the murderer.

Right.

That is totally how it works.

Exactly.

Sounds like our government.

Let's just keep doing it.

Let's just keep doing it.

Oh, night long.

It's fine.

We're going to Vancouver tomorrow.

We can just stay there if we need to.

I forgot my passport.

We know.

Oh, that's right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's being worked out.

My husband is a dear, sweet angel who's FedExing things.

Okay, so,

okay, the family, about the $20,000 reward, says, go fuck yourself.

Yeah.

No, no, no, no, no.

Good.

So he's sentenced to death.

Then Lauren is tried for the murder of five people, including Cindy.

His video is admissible now.

He's found guilty of first degree and three killings, and he gets life without the possibility of parole.

But wait, nope, it gets worse.

In 2004, a state appeals court overturned Lauren's conviction, saying the police coerced his confession during the long interrogations.

And they said that the police ignored his rights to remain silent,

deprived him of all this shit, a new trial order, but Herzog's lawyer worked out a plea deal with the prosecutors.

He agreed to plead guilty to manslaughter

and accessory to murder in exchange for a 14-year sentence with credit, fair time, serge.

So he's out on parole on September 18th, 2010.

Wait a second, it's 2017.

Yeah.

He

goes, lives in like a shitty home.

They keep an eye on him.

He's got all this tracking device.

But don't worry, guys, he kills himself.

So he basically, when he finds out that Wesley is going to tell them where the bodies are, he's like, oh shit, and kills himself.

He is offered $33,000, Wesley is, by a bounty hunter to tell him where the bodies are.

Whoa.

I know.

I think he tricked him, though.

So,

let's see.

He provides maps to five burial sites where his victims could be found,

referring to one of them as their bone yard, and they find Cindy and Chevy's bodies.

And there's three separate burial sites, and human remains are found there.

At least 300 human bones of varying size, as well as coats, shoes, purses, and jewelry

from a well on the land in rural North California.

For a second I thought they fucking shipped some bones.

Go over here.

They found other remains in a well

and

so dental records identify Cindy and Chevy and they find almost a thousand human bone fragments in an old abandoned well.

and including a woman named Joanne Hobson.

She was 16 years old, went missing in 85, and Wesley claims that there are as many as 72 victims.

72?

In that amount of time.

Can you belie?

Yeah, can you believe that, like,

I didn't even hear about these dudes?

No, I've never heard of this.

I've seen their names, but actually, when I was doing this research, I had a go.

There's no place that just explains what happened and

who disappeared.

It's always like there's an article about these two women who disappeared.

There's an article about him killing himself.

There's like little fragments, but there's nothing.

It's not all underneath the one.

No, so I had to make it.

She's like,

and maybe, maybe make up some facts.

Whatever.

I don't know what tattoos.

You're not going to know if he has those tattoos or not.

He's dead.

That's crazy.

Well, that's because that's so many.

No.

That's like.

I mean, why would you make?

I don't know.

It's just this like, well, if it was from like 84 to 98, there's a lot of time in there.

Yes.

Well, they also believe that he's connected, they're connected.

Almost

almost 14 years.

Is it 14?

I don't.

I don't know.

Yes.

They also believe that

they may be connected to the 88 disappearance of nine-year-old Michelle Garrick from Hayward.

You remember that one?

She was abducted on November 19th, 1988, in broad daylight outside a grocery store.

She found her scooter.

It had been moved next to a parked car, and she goes to get it.

Some motherfucker grabs her and puts her in the car.

And

the like,

what's it called when they draw your face?

Sketch.

Thank you.

I thought you said, what's it called when they draw on your face?

I'm like, falling asleep at a frat party?

What the fuck is, what is this story?

Composite sketch of

the sky.

So the other sketch.

Yes.

And it looks just fucking like Lauren.

Like, it's just creepy.

And so

her case was the first missing child case to be featured on America's Most Wanted.

So Wesley, one of the speed freak dudes, wrote a letter saying that Lauren committed, no, no, no, that's a copy and paste mistake,

that he said that they should look into what happened to that

Hayward girl, and they actually found shoes at the bottom of the well

that looked like the ones she was wearing that day.

I know, sweet baby.

Okay, so Central Valley Department destroyed a bunch of missing persons record, though.

So we might not ever know that.

Okay,

and the other suspected victims that have been that are looked like is Terry Ann Forcher from Reno, Dina McHann.

She was last seen getting gas near Lodi while two men were bothering her.

And then Kimberly Ann Billy disappeared from Stockton, and a Robin Armtrout, whose body was found stabbed to death, and was last seen getting into a car with two men, and the car matched the description of Wesley's.

So he's still on death row.

And

he's like opening up a lot more now.

And he said,

I know.

He said, doing some poetry and stuff, like really accessing his feelings.

He's like doing the thing of like, oh, yeah, I fucked up.

Okay, I get it.

My son won't talk to me anymore, so I know how these parents feel of losing their children.

Not even fucking kidding you.

Well, I mean, look.

I don't know.

There's nothing I have to say, but I have some wisdom for him.

Look, here's what I'm saying.

Look, meth is bad.

Yeah.

It really is.

He says now to think about all that stuff I did.

I try not to.

I would have nightmares.

Fuck you, pal.

Night night, motherfucker.

Wow.

Speed freak killers.

The speed freak killers, everybody.

Shit.

Yeah, that's your fucking doing, Northern California.

You guys took it to it.

And we're back.

Okay, Okay, do you have updates for this case?

I do.

As of May 2023, San Joaquin County detectives Jeremy Davis, who grew up in Herman's neighborhood, and Chris, I know, I mean, they're all like locals and it's small towny blue collar, you know.

Yeah.

And Chris Sterney are methodically reviewing decades of unsolved cases, particularly in rural areas between Stockton and Tracy, to look for patterns and possible links to Shermantine and Herzog.

And so items recovered in 2012, like a ring, sandals, and a locket, are now being publicly released by investigators in hopes someone recognizes those items and helps identify the mysterious Jane Doe from the well.

And I imagine like you have a missing daughter and you have to go look at those items online to try to see if you recognize.

No, I can't imagine.

And the article about that, there's an article in the Sacramento News and Review by Scott Thomas Anderson, and it's a really great article.

If you want to read about that, it's got some stuff about the Golden State killer as well.

And it's just, you know, more heartbreak.

Yeah.

And then due to California's changing stance on the death penalty, Wesley Shermantine was moved off of death row in 2024.

He remains in prison and hopefully always will.

Those murders were horrific.

So bad.

I'm glad I did them and we got them out of the way.

And we never have to do them again until we do the next rewind of this.

That's right.

Then we have to look it all in the face once again.

All right.

Well, let's get into Karen's story about Herbert Mullen.

In 1920, a magazine article announced something incredible.

Two young girls had photographed real fairies.

But even more incredible, that article was written by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, the man who invented Sherlock Holmes.

How did he fall for that?

Hoax is a new podcast for me, Dana Schwartz, the host of Noble Blood.

And me, Lizzie Logan.

Every episode, we'll explore one of the most audacious and ambitious tricks in history and try to answer the question, why we believe what we believe.

Listen to hoax on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Ian Pfaff, the creator and host of the Uncle Chris Podcast.

My Uncle Chris was a real character, a garbage truck driver from South Carolina, who is now buried in Panama City alongside the founding families of Panama.

He also happens to be responsible for the craziest night of my life.

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Listen now to Uncle Chris on Will Farrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Hey, Oakland, California.

My Favorite Murder is back on tour.

Join us at the Paramount Theater on Thursday, October 2nd.

Don't wait, the Friday, October 3rd show is already sold out.

Head to myfavoritemurder.com to buy tickets and your VIP package while supplies last.

Good.

Bye-bye.

All right, now I get comfy.

Oh, now you're going to dig in?

Yeah, let's do it.

Wow.

Mine also did drugs.

He did a lot of drugs.

My guy, he doesn't really have a funny nickname like many of them do, although you've probably heard of him.

His name is Herbert Mullen.

And Herbert Mullen, thank you.

Herbert Mullen is the serial killer from

Fenton, California, near Santa Cruz, and

represent Go Banana Slugs.

Right a thing?

Yeah, this UC Santa Cruz mascot is a banana slug.

No, yes.

She's fucking with me?

Really?

The children got to vote on their own mascot, and because irony is fun, they chose a banana slug.

No, no.

Never let children choose anything important.

We were the, when I was in soccer, we were the teal tornado.

Like, you just get to pick your own stupid things, and kids are dumb, you know?

Well, I mean, it is college.

Oh, Jesus Christ.

That's even worse.

Wow.

Yeah.

I'm disappointed.

They love pot.

So

who doesn't?

So Herbert Mellon was the guy.

You may have heard of him.

It happened in the 70s.

He was the one that was active at the same time as Edmund Kemper, the co-ed killer, who was also in Santa Cruz.

So Santa Cruz, in the early 70s, had two full-on serial killers at the same time,

earning it the nickname Murderville, USA.

Yeah.

Our own little Santa Cruz.

Work, live, play.

Murderville, USA.

Murder.

Hide.

Bum out.

But unlike Edmund Kemper, Herbert Mullen was killing for our benefit.

He believed that he had to make human sacrifices so that earthquakes wouldn't hit California.

Did anyone ever tell him that earthquakes are kind of fun, though?

No, he's clearly very scared of earthquakes.

Idiot.

He didn't want them to happen.

And

let me tell you about him.

I'll tell you a little bit about him.

So he was born on April 18th, 1947, to a very strict Catholic family.

He was in high school.

He was good-looking, athletic, and polite.

The trifecta.

No.

Be careful, I'm telling you, it is not good to peek in high school.

Psychotic or charming?

Yeah.

Somewhere in between, that's what you want.

If you're hiding behind those beautiful teeth, good luck.

He was actually voted most likely to succeed.

And he did, I guess.

And he, well,

some saw it as a success.

After graduating in 1965, he went to college.

He majored in engineering, and he considered following in his father's footsteps of joining the military.

But the turning point of his otherwise normal life came around the time when his best friend was killed in a car accident.

And this was the first moment where he,

his

psychotic episode was triggered.

So he was right at the age where schizophrenia starts to show

in young men, and basically it was the stress and the grief.

He had this psychotic episode, and his behavior began to change entirely.

And his family started to get really scared of him.

So

his friend died.

He built a shrine in his room to his friend.

He started arranging all the furniture in his room around the shrine and he was sitting it for hours and hours alone.

He

had to break up with his girlfriend explaining to her that he thought he was turning gay

because of the shrine.

Just turn into a gay.

Just slowly turning, turning, turning.

He was going to let her know when he turned entirely, but he didn't feel comfortable leading her on.

I'm lying about all that part.

He became obsessed with the concept of reincarnation, and he became increasingly paranoid, and he started hearing voices.

So his behavior was really scaring his family because he was starting to do super weird things like beg his sister for sex.

What?

So gay, such a gay move.

And he also was doing a thing

that

he began to compulsively imitate every move movement his brother-in-law made.

Oh God.

His sister was also married.

So it was sinful in many ways that he was begging her for sex.

The movement was sex.

Yes.

No, no.

Just every movement.

So this is actually a real disorder called echopraxia.

Really?

Yes.

Echopraxia is when you have the compulsion to imitate every single thing a person does.

Even if you don't even want to, you just have to keep doing it.

It's a compulsion.

And echolalia is the compulsion to repeat anything someone says.

What's the compulsion?

I want to screw your sister.

Gross.

I guess that's called Game of Thrones.

Yeah.

Whoa.

Thank you.

All the way up in the back.

Fucking pro over here, you guys.

Okay, so.

In the early 70s, in an attempt to calm himself, he began to take huge doses of LSD.

What?

A perfect solution.

He also was taking a lot of amphetamines.

No.

Yeah, just a little bit to bring him up after he went into that other dimension.

That sounds like a no.

Just for a little energy.

I'm not a doctor, but

if you're feeling paranoid,

think you're seeing things, acid isn't the way.

It's just not, it's a non-solution.

And if you're paranoid and think you're seeing things because you're on acid, meth isn't the way.

Yeah, that's right.

Let's not, like, don't double down.

No, no, no, no, no.

Yeah, don't go into the white drug area.

Like, pick a drug.

No, don't do drugs.

You guys.

Don't do drugs.

But if you're, but if you're going to, you know, listen, you go, you know, ow.

You know, you know.

Just hit myself in the face with the mic.

You missed it.

I wanted to tell you.

Oh, I wrote here: maybe try some aromatic oils.

Don't you love yourself at that moment?

Writing yourself.

It's fun.

I was having a great time drinking this huge thing of coffee.

I was enjoying myself.

So Herbert came to believe that his friend's death had been a part of a grand cosmic plan, and he changed his college major from engineering to philosophy.

He became obsessed with reincarnation, religion, and,

take note, impending natural disasters.

So, in 1969, he was finally diagnosed with severe paranoid schizophrenia, and he allowed his family to commit him to Mendocino State Hospital one of the many state hospitals that doesn't exist anymore because they cut the funding for mental health which is fucked let's see what we can do from that America

does your mom work did your mom work there Mendocino is way up north but she did work in a state hospital yeah

you can't let a city go by can you well it's all of California has come to see us tonight it's so exciting

I don't know a single person here.

No.

There's nobody on my now that was working fine.

You don't know.

What if you find out that you do?

Okay, so

Herbert spent the following years.

Oh, he, sorry, he went to Mendocino State Hospital.

I preach, preach, preach.

And then the back half of that was he checked himself out six weeks later.

So then he spent the following years drifting around Northern California, working small-time jobs, spending short periods of time in various mental institutions.

He practiced yoga, meditation, ate a macrobiotic diet, yet he was vocally ultra-conservative.

And essential oils, probably.

And maybe he was using some essential oils, which was my idea.

He spent time as an amateur boxer.

He actually had to be forcibly removed from the ring when he wouldn't stop beating his opponent.

Hey, hey, you're an amateur.

You don't have to kill that guy.

At one point, he attempted to join the priesthood.

and they were like, no thanks,

which is really saying something.

All right.

So,

in this time, Herbert is fixating on impending natural disasters, of course, also doing tons of acid, and he comes up with a theory.

He becomes convinced that nature requires a blood sacrifice to keep the next big earthquake from hitting California.

He theorized that the violence during the Vietnam War had been enough bloodshed to control earthquakes throughout the late 60s, but now that the war was over, there was nothing to stop

the big one from destroying the state.

And how does he know the percentage of blood to like the percentage of year, like the number of years?

You know what I mean?

Because he was an engineer.

No, I know.

He's like a typical, like, oh, actually, it's this much blood.

Like, of course.

This is how many people were killed in Vietnam, and then you calculate that.

No, Herbert.

Herbert believed that because his birthday was April 18th,

same day as the 1906 earthquake that leveled San Francisco and the death day of Albert Einstein,

that this made him the leader of his generation.

That's all you need is

one good birthday.

And as the leader, it was his job to make sure enough people die to prevent the big one from killing everyone.

So he had to begin murdering people for the good of mankind.

Before that, and I swear to God, this is a classic cut and paste.

Before that, he had considered relocating to Canada.

Wish you'd done that.

I think you'd have your murder for tomorrow.

That's recently something else tonight.

I just do Herbert Mullen up there.

So it turns out Herbert Mullen hates maple syrup.

All right.

So it starts.

On October 13th, 1972, Herbert Mullen is 24 years old.

He drives home to visit his parents.

Oh, in Felton, California, sorry.

Not Fenton.

I said Fenton, it's Felton.

My apologies to the mayor and the comp troller.

So if you don't know, Felton is this tiny town.

It's north of Santa Cruz on the nine.

It's right in those like, right?

Give it up for the nine, everybody.

One of the better small highways of California.

There's redwoods everywhere.

It's actually gorgeous.

Okay.

It's so gorgeous.

Perfect place to put a body at that.

That's right.

It's also where I went to camp.

Oh, my God.

So, yeah,

Camp St.

Andrews.

Children's live bodies at a camp.

I mean,

wait for it.

Okay, so

as he's driving down, he's going back to visit his parents, and he later tells police that this is when he received a telepathic message from his father saying, Herb, I want you to kill me, somebody.

So you don't listen to your parents all your life, and this is when you're going to fucking start listening to your, come on, Herb.

Dad's drinking a ham, beer at ham's beer at home.

Like, what?

I don't fucking do it.

I didn't do it.

Yeah.

Don't bring me into this shit.

Okay.

So, Herbert Mullen sees, as he's driving on the nine, he sees a homeless man named Lawrence White who is on the side of the road.

So, what he does is he pulls over and he lifts the hood of his car, feigning car trouble.

And when the man comes over to ask if he needs any help, Herbert Mullen bludgeons him to death with a baseball bat and leaves his body where it lays.

And that man is found a few days later.

A few days?

A few days later.

On the side of the road?

Yeah, because it's like way up in

Forest Land.

Yeah, it's remote.

So less than two weeks later, it gets worse.

Should I sing the song?

It gets so much worse.

And it really did.

No, thank you.

Oh, thank you.

But also, it really does.

Two weeks later, Herbert picked up a hitchhiker.

named Mary Guilfoyle, who is a student at UC Santa Cruz.

Don't cheer for it.

He's

because listen to this.

He stabbed her in the heart in his car.

Then he brought her body into the woods

near the roadside.

He cut her open.

He hanged her intestines from tree branches.

And he examined them for pollution.

Yes.

For fuck's sake.

Her remains weren't found for several months.

And when they were discovered, the police assumed that this murder was the work of Edmund Kemper.

because you know they weren't like oh it could be another fucking serial killer in Santa Cruz

you know that other one yeah

why don't you guys just go on that roller coaster down by the sea and relax

all right So Mary Guilfoyle's murder haunted Mullins so to the point where on November 2nd, All Souls Day, he walked into Los Gatas Catholic Church, he took confession with Father Henry Tomsey and he confessed everything.

He talked about these murders in detail, but then when he was done, a voice told him that this priest was offering himself up as a sacrifice.

How many times do I have to warn you?

So

Mullen stabbed Father Tomsey to death in the confessional and then walked out of the church.

But then how do we know that he said all that to him?

Sorry?

How do we know that he confessed all that to him then?

He told the police everything.

Oh, I get the other way.

Okay.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

He probably told his own story at the end of this

insanity.

Okay.

So, then he tries to enlist in the Marine Corps.

A natural next step.

And though he did pass both the physical and psychiatric exams,

he was rejected when they brought up his arrest record and saw his history of bizarre behavior.

Also, he was colorblind.

But otherwise, you're fine.

And that's fine.

What?

Flat feet.

Get out of here.

He later claimed that he never would have become a serial killer if he had just been accepted into the Marines.

You've already killed three fucking people, David.

It's kind of a fake excuse.

You have to admit.

Maybe.

So this rejection affects him a lot to the point where he stops taking massive amounts of acid every day.

But his

severe, violent, paranoid schizophrenia is out of control, totally untreated.

He believes that this rejection from the Marines is just another example of the conspiracy against him in his life.

He also accuses his parents of participating in this conspiracy.

He accuses them of being, quote, killjoy reincarnationalists,

which is not a real thing,

who believe their next lives would be more enjoyable if they made the current lives of others miserable.

Man, can you imagine just being a parent?

You're like, I want to have babies, I do too, I love you, and then you just have this fucking asshole.

Yeah, you just birth an asshole out onto the fucking table.

Man.

Tough.

But also, it's kind of funny because then also then I just think of like, when you're 13, it's just kind of just a teenage mentality of like, my parents live to make everyone else's lives awful.

A reincarnationist down here.

Fucking reincarnationalist.

All right.

So, swept up in his paranoid delusions, Mullen decides to kill Jim Gennara, his high school pot dealer.

Oh.

It's a weird choice.

It doesn't work that way, Herbert.

He believes that because Jim sold him pot, that he was part of the plot to destroy his mind and that he had to avenge himself.

The guy's like, I fucking sold you a Reagano, dude.

Yeah.

Damn it.

What was the plot?

Why isn't it ever your fault, Herb?

Why isn't it on you ever?

All right.

So around the same time, a voice told Mullen to buy a gun because it would be a cleaner way of killing people.

On January 25th, 1973, Herbert Mullen drove to to Jim Gennara's house, or where Jim Gennara lived when they were in high school.

When he got there, he met current resident Kathy Francis.

And she explained that Gennara didn't live there anymore.

Herbert explained that he was a friend of Jim's, and so Kathy gave Mullen Jim's new address.

That night, Mullen drove to the Gennara's new home and shot and killed Jim Gennara and his wife, Joan and then stabbed them both repeatedly post-mortem.

He then went back and murdered Kathy Francis

and her two young sons.

Fuck man.

Guys,

it's in the name.

My favorite murder.

You know what I mean?

Oh man.

Because both Jim Gennara and Kathy Francis' husband had dealt drugs at one time, the police assumed that both of the murders being same M.O.

had to be drug-related.

Please.

Less than two weeks later, Mullen saw four teenage boys camping in Henry Cowell Redwood State Park.

Have you been there?

Oh, yeah.

In fact, I didn't have time to look it up, but that might be where we went to camp.

I'm not kidding.

Is this serious?

Well, there's a bunch of state parks, but I would like it to be.

These boys were David Oliger, 18, Robert Specter, 18, Brian Card, 19, and Mark Drabel-Biss, 15.

Mullins approached them, posing as a park ranger, and told them to leave, claiming that they were polluting the park.

Uh-oh.

Here's that word again.

Fucking hippies.

When the boys dismissed him, he pulled the gun, shot them all one by one.

He stole a rifle from that campsite, and then he left.

Herbert Mullins' final murder took place on February 13th, 1973.

Holy fuck.

73-year-old Fred Perez was gardening in his front yard.

Mullen drove by and shot him with the rifle that he stole from that campsite.

Luckily, a neighbor witnessed the whole thing, wrote down Mullen's license plate number, called the police, and Herbert Mullen was arrested shortly thereafter with no incident.

It is a nice feeling, isn't it?

Yeah.

They got him.

And he was arrested without incident.

He was just like, yep, yep, all right, we're done here.

Wow.

But then they get to the police station.

This is kind of my favorite part.

Okay.

They get to the police station, and Mullen was totally uncooperative.

His response to every question the police asked was, silence.

Which you have to admit would be kind of fun if you got arrested.

Yeah.

And the police were like, where were you?

And then I was silence.

I'm going to try it next time I got arrested, I think.

Or really anytime.

I mean, you're welcome to.

Thank you.

So

when Edmund Kemper, the co-ed killer, was arrested, he and Mullen were briefly held in adjoining cells.

Santa Cruz.

Besties, Santa Cruz, best friends, killing all around the floor.

Finger between Red Blood Brothers through the.

Yeah.

Keep it up.

Keep it up, you fucking psycho.

Kemper actually accused Mullen of stealing his dump sites, which is.

Hey,

relax.

He didn't even use dump sites, you fucking idiot.

There's enough for everyone.

Eventually, Herbert Mullen confessed to all 13 murders, explaining to police that these human sacrifices were necessary for earthquake prevention.

Only you can prevent forest fires, he said to the police.

And then he yelled, silence!

Is that how they came up with the only you can prevent forest fires?

Forest fires.

Oh, did you know that was a...

He looked a little bit like a bear.

And they were like, hold on.

And he was naked from the waist down with a hat on.

Really deep voice.

He also claimed that he had telepathically asked those four boys at the campsite if he could kill them and that they'd all given him permission.

At least two of them would have been like, fuck no.

You know?

Yeah, that's when the police began to beat him senseless.

Really?

It's not on the internet anywhere, but we can pretty much be assured.

In the end, Mullen was found guilty of two counts of first-degree murder because they proved that Kathy Francis and Jim Gennara's murders were premeditated.

But everything else, they could not prove that, also, because he was so insane.

So he had eight counts of second-degree murder.

He was sentenced to life in prison.

He will be eligible for parole in 2021

when he is 74 years old.

No, I doubt it'll work.

I doubt it'll work out.

Probably not.

But, you know.

Yeah, that's it.

That's all.

Pretty good, babe.

Listen, don't go off your meds, everyone.

I don't care what the fucking specter of your dad is telling you.

Yeah.

Don't go off your meds.

Yeah.

If you hear voices, and I mean, like, even if there's someone standing behind you in line talking, get on those meds.

Yep, I agree.

Fuck.

I agree.

Okay, and we're back.

Karen, any updates?

Yes.

So.

Herbert Mullen was never granted parole.

He died in prison of natural causes in 2022.

So since I told the story of Herbert Mullen, there have been several either new or expanded mental health facilities that have opened in California, one in Madeira, and then one in Santa Rosa, which is the big town near Petaluma.

There's Sacramento, Glendora, which is obviously all great.

We need those kinds of facilities, except for that they're for-profit.

So

some of these new facilities have been linked to serious problems like understaffing, patient neglect, and even abuse and death.

So

it's an oversight issue.

In 2023, voters approved billions in funding to expand behavioral health infrastructure.

But if we don't have stricter regulation, then those problems are, they're just going to keep making things unsafe until all of that stuff gets seriously regulated.

So while there's technically more mental health care now, it's a mixed bag

because it doesn't mean better care.

I mean, you can't help but think about the fact that it's like, if it's for profit, why would they want people to get better?

You know, like if the bed is filled, that's good.

That's a positive.

That like doesn't, that doesn't equate getting treatment, right?

Right.

So yes, that's just never going to happen.

It's never going to happen in that where you're putting the goal way behind the financial game.

We'll always be fucked.

Totally.

But, you know, that seems like such an old argument when we're literally building concentration camps in this country.

This would be a great argument to have if someone else was in the office, but none of it now matters.

This is all mute.

This is all a moot point because we should put on mute.

Let's mute the shit out of it.

The only thing in the lately, especially with how egregious and insane everything is getting, it makes me go like, it almost makes me feel like everybody's going to be able to come together, or at least a larger percentage than could before to say, hey, what we need is oversight and regulation.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, I'm serious.

Yes.

I hope so.

Okay.

I hope so.

We'll see if you have that opportunity or if that's taken away from us too.

Hey, you know, we did have an opportunity for, though, a hometown.

At this live show, Chloe came and she talked about the very upsetting Tara Linda barbecue murders.

I think we have time to do a hometown murder.

I think so too.

Now here's the cool part.

We know who we're going to pick.

Yeah.

Because her name is Chloe.

Yeah.

Chloe?

Where are you?

No?

Oh, she was fucking lying.

She was fucking with us.

Is there any way to bring these lights up a little bit?

Chloe, you said you were going to be at the back of the orchestra pit.

That's what this is, I think, right?

I hear her.

Chloe, do you know what an orchestra pit is?

Because if you're yelling from anywhere, that's

come here.

Did we forget to tell them that we're going to have someone from the audience?

Chloe, you're from Oakland.

There she is.

The chairman left.

Can you?

Yeah, yeah, go over there.

Look over there.

Look at that girl in the plaid shirt.

Chloe, listen to my voice.

See that girl that's waving her arms?

Go to her.

Jesus Christ.

We rehearsed this 15 times.

Oh, that poor babe.

If she wasn't nervous before,

now we really built it up.

Now I'm mad at her.

Get out of here, god damn it.

These people are waiting.

Yay!

Yeah.

Come on.

Hey.

You're fine.

It's fine.

What's going on?

You're just going to throw up.

Yeah, so am I.

Georgia.

That's Georgia.

That's Chloe.

I love you so much.

Are you really Chloe?

Yes, I am.

Chloe tweeted at us.

It's fine.

I just signed up for Twitter yesterday.

Oh my God.

Let's get her some followers.

What's your handle?

What's your handle?

We'll get you some followers.

It's Chloe Doors.

That's my name.

D-O-O-R-S?

R-E-S.

Oh, that's adorable.

There's a couple.

There she goes.

She's going to have at least 2,000 followers by tomorrow.

Okay.

Here, so let's center up.

Let's center up, Chloe.

None of this is real, so don't care.

Let's get a nice stage picture.

Chloe, you be in the middle.

I can't see any of you.

Yeah, I know, right?

Just don't look at them.

Okay.

You have a hometown murder for us.

You wrote it down.

Really?

Yeah.

I can't do this.

Okay, all right.

I got it.

All right.

I mean, we wish you would have memorized it.

That's what we do.

Just wing it.

Yeah.

I'd like to pull a Van Morrison and and just face the back of the stage right now.

That's badass!

Yes!

Radio.

Here we go.

Stare at my back while I tell you this.

We can all do it.

Okay, wait, let's really quick.

Okay, where are you from?

I'm from Fairfax.

They love Fairfax.

Tiny, tiny town in Marin, not far from Petaluma.

That's right.

Who are you here with?

This is why I tweeted you avidly.

Okay.

Fairfax.

Anyway.

Who are you here with?

I'm here with my husband.

Hi.

Luke and my good friend Katie.

I can't see you guys.

I'm pulling out.

It's just fine.

It's fine.

Yeah.

See you guys tomorrow.

I'm going to hang out with Karen in Georgia tonight.

No, she's not.

We all get cake.

Ohio.

Uh-oh.

Ohio.

Okay, so let's hear this hometown story.

Is this a Fairfax murder?

No, it's very close.

Terra Linda.

Okay.

It's.

Yeah.

Tera Linda.

Yes.

Super creepy.

This is called the Barbecue Murders.

I'm not fucking with you.

I wrote it down.

I'm terrified right now.

Just read it.

Terralinda is like a weird suburban colony of San Rafael.

It's not a town.

It's where the mall is.

It's where you go to go to the mall.

That's right.

It's eerie.

It's super weird there.

So I'm just going to read because I will start talking and barfing all over you guys.

That'd be kind of cool.

That's what our podcast motto is.

We're super punk rock like that.

I was born in 1982.

It's clearly, this is not about you.

It was a rainy day in October.

There's this thing about Terra Linda, it just feels like it was stuck in the 80s.

It's like you go there to go to the mall, and it's the 80s, and it's creepy.

And there's the Kaiser up on the hill.

There's a Kaiser at mall.

That's all that there is there.

And a bunch of tract housing and like a Sizzler.

Yeah.

I used to get my allergy shots at that Kaiser three times a week.

Did you really?

Yeah, yeah.

Anyway, this really horrible double murder happened there in 1975.

Okay.

Here come my notes.

Let's hear them.

By a 16-year-old girl named Marlene Olive and her fucking loser boyfriend named Chuck.

Chuck.

He was 20.

She was 16 and he was 20.

It was the 70s.

Every 20-year-old in the 70s was named Chuck.

And dating a 16-year-old.

And a 10-year-old.

Yeah.

This is the guy that sold drugs to the high school kids, not for money, but to be cool.

Yeah.

And remember when you're in the middle of the

fast or you just theorized.

I got that off Wikipedia.

Okay, you know.

Okay, okay.

Girl, you know.

Okay.

Anyway, they started dating, and Marlene was really troubled, and she was adopted, and she found out when she was really young that she was adopted on accident, so she was all kinds of fucked up.

She wasn't adopted on accident, she was adopted, and she found out on accident.

Thank you.

She found out on accident.

I heard some gasps, like clarification.

We have a kid now.

No, we have to keep her.

Oh, we brought the wrong, we got the wrong luggage at the airport.

Oh, wow.

She had a great relationship with her adoptive father, but her adoptive mother was a schizophrenic alcoholic who was psychotic and was really mean to her and basically told her that her birth mom was a prostitute and that she was going to be one too.

And all the stuff that makes you fucked up.

I mean, yes.

And then young Marlene yelled back sex worker.

Exactly.

Exactly.

It was the 70s.

It was the 70s.

And needless to say, it was the 70s.

Marlene got super into the occult.

Oh,

it's not real.

And doing lots of drugs.

And

she hated her mom, obviously, because she was crazy and super mean.

And she

decided that her parents had to die.

And she also decided that her loser boyfriend had to be the one to kill them.

Oh, that's a good call, actually.

Keep your hands clean, Marlene.

Right?

I mean, you got to be 16,

not so dumb.

Anyway, she had all the control in the relationship, obviously, because he agreed to do it.

So one day she leaves the house with her dad, and Chuck sneaks in and kills Naomi, her mom,

with a hammer,

and a knife, and

some other stuff.

And then Marlene's dad, Jim, comes home, finds Chuck, and Chuck shoots him as well.

So both parents are dead.

Oh, no.

So Chuck and Marlene clean up the place and take the bodies to this beautiful state park in San Rafael called China Camp.

China Camp, yeah.

I've had a Mickey's big mouth or two there myself.

Like

gorgeous, gorgeous.

I can't go there ever again.

And also just the FYI, the barbecue pit that they set the parents on fire in

has been removed, so don't try to find it.

Yeah, don't worry about it.

You're like, why does this burger taste so?

Hence Hence the barbecue.

Yeah, so they're a vegan.

Set mom and dad on fire, went home,

kind of right after they did that, because

logic.

Left them burning.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then they went to go live in the olive's home for about three days.

The plan was to wait until the

parents were pronounced dead and they collected the life insurance and then they could go move to Ecuador.

Yeah, so simple.

Live their lives.

I can't imagine that plan didn't involve a joint at some point.

Apparently they went to a yes concert.

Oh my god.

Do not blame the sign yes.

Do not blame the.

I don't mean that.

I don't even.

Anyway, they were caught, of course,

because they're idiots.

He's in prison for life.

She went to some juvenile something.

She was 15 or 16.

She was released after two years, moved to LA, became some superstar in the

like forgery.

She did a lot of forgery.

Oh yeah.

And you now know her Gwencher.

She's a superstar.

Don't say anything.

Similarities are uncanny.

Uncanny.

We all have pasts.

Exactly.

I quickly have two connections to this murder.

Besides just being a super weird kid and totally obsessed with this at the age of 10.

I made my mom drive me to the house that it happened in.

So I was like,

when you were 10?

Yes.

And your mom did it.

Yeah.

Yes.

She was like secretly, I think, kind of into it, even though she was like, this is weird.

If I had a 10-year-old, everyone says that.

She was into it.

We drove by.

But the really creepy thing is that when I was 13, I started babysitting for a family about a block away from that house.

And it's all trapped housing there.

So all the houses are the same.

In the best-selling true crime book by Richard Levine about this story called Bad Blood,

a Marin County family murder.

Oh, so there's a colon at the end of blood.

Okay.

He draws a layout of the home where both of these parents were murdered.

And it's exactly the same as the house that I used to babysit in.

And I just remember being 13 and like putting these kids down and walking around and being like, this is where this happened.

I'm scintillated and excited and terrified.

Pretty much everything I'm feeling right now.

I'm done.

Chloe!

Chloe, everybody!

Nice.

Beautifully done.

Beautifully done.

So good.

Really good.

From a tweet.

We trusted the tweet.

Chloe.

Flee!

I mean, you just tell her to go away.

What's that?

Nothing.

That was magical.

Yeah.

I love when that happens and it's not like some weird person.

I know.

It never is.

No.

I mean, we've done that twice.

Yeah, it's true.

That is true.

I just like that.

What if we didn't, if we were just like, forget it, we're not going to do that.

And then she would have had that little folded up piece of paper in her pocket.

But that's not what happened, everybody.

It's someone else

now.

Here, I'm going to pretend like it was your story, Georgia.

Do you have any updates for Chloe's case?

Oh my gosh, Karen.

Well, no updates, but we do have a corrections corner, corner, corner.

During the show, Chloe stated that Charles Riley was in prison for life.

In fact, Riley was originally granted parole in 2014, nearly 40 years after his conviction for the 1975 double murder of Naomi and Jim Olive.

The parole board cited his decades of model behavior, completion of rehabilitation programs, and expressed remorse.

Psychological evaluations concluded.

He posed a low risk of reoffending.

Governor Jerry Brown reversed the decision in 2014, but a state appeals court overturned that reversal in 2015, allowing Riley to be released at the age of 59, which, I mean, the whole point is rehabilitation, right?

Completely.

I mean,

if he had to pass all of those tests and they were like, yep, we're putting him through every possible stress test and he's passing.

Yes, let him out because he was a very young man when this happened.

Yeah.

What you do when you're 20, like,

now he's 60.

Yeah, but the, you know, that doesn't help the victims families.

It's just such a hard, it's a hard discussion to have because it's just impossible to get to a period about it.

Completely.

And there's such, the loss is.

so great that it kind of doesn't matter on the other side.

When you start talking about the offender, it's again, it's like all that kind of extraneous like, well, that's a nice idea.

Meanwhile, our loved ones are dead.

Totally.

Yeah.

All right.

Well, maybe we'll say hi to Chloe when we're back in Oakland at the Paramount Theater on October 2nd and 3rd of this year, 2025.

Our Lord.

Nice plug.

Thanks.

Yeah, I think at the time of this recording, tickets are still available.

Okay, we should talk about titles.

Obviously, as we bragged, this episode was originally titled Live at the Fox Theater.

That's right.

But if we were naming it today based on something that was said during the episode, maybe it would be pockets, pockets, pockets.

I think it was so satisfying how much like the sale response,

how much people agree with us and we agree with them that pockets for women's clothes are.

a necessity.

A worth the standing ovation.

Like that's one of the many things I've learned during this podcast.

The biggest surprises of this podcast is that people will cheer a dress with pockets.

And that makes me like, kind of feel okay about the human race, you know?

Yes.

I think we are doing okay.

And I think them playing along with our, let's show off our outfits like we're five years old is like,

this is one of the first times we did that.

And it made it so fun.

We're like, oh, yeah, this is just, it's all the gals together.

Yeah, especially when I did a twirl when we were in Texas and showed everyone my underwear on accident.

Yeah.

Remember when you broke the back out of that one dress just for fun that was my i think that might be my favorite tour memory i thought about that while i was trying on dresses today because there were a couple that were like this fits quote but like there's not a room for a breath you know but i think that's when you're on the edge there yeah it loves that tension like you can't sit comfortably but what's it's a live show why would you no no one's comfortable no um

Georgia also, the title could be, sounds like our government.

Oh, it's just, it never stops.

Georgia

was talking about Lauren Herzog's tattoos during her story and said that line.

That's always applicable, apparently.

Sounds like our government.

And of course, Chloe's classic, we could call it Pullavan Morrison.

I mean, such a good joke.

We must.

So genius.

Well, that's a live show rewind.

Thank you guys for listening.

We'll let the Karen and Georgia from then and there at the Fox Theater say goodbye for us.

Yes.

Oh, really quick.

Stephen offered to drive up from Los Angeles to bring my passport.

Oh, my.

Okay.

I got to tell you what.

Ever since Stephen has been promoted from just like the guy that records our podcast so we don't have to like move the dials and stuff, we were like, Stephen, you please help us with these emails.

And he's like, okay, I totally will.

He's completely organized all of our hometown murder emails.

But now he's turned into like the super assistant where like

like what did he say he was like

what do you mean my text today yes he was like hey i just want to let you know uh you're on your way to a hotel and they have a printer so if you need to print out your story that it's there and i'm like i know how fucking hotels work steven he's doing

he's like calling hotels yes i need to speak to the business center please

Do you have paper?

She likes this kind of grain.

Don't look her in the eye when she goes into the business center.

I actually didn't print it up there, and I was going to send it to them, but it said Speed Freak Killers, the name of the document.

So I was like, I'm going to print it at the venue.

Just a little paperwork for my job.

So, yes, hi to Stephen Ray Morris for being an angel baby.

Stephen Ray Morris.

Yeah.

You know who else is the best?

The Fox Theater in Oakland, California.

Thank you guys so much.

Thank you all so much.

This is amazing.

We love you for coming here.

Thank you.

We love you for getting tickets and fucking being a part of our world.

First night of our tour.

Yeah, man.

First night.

You know what?

Stay sexy.

And don't get fried!

Bye.