597: No Such Thing As Love Spaghetti

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Hey, everyone.

Welcome to another episode of Phish.

Before we get going, I just want to quickly let you know about two very exciting global live streaming events that we are going to be doing on the 5th and 6th of September.

So we're going to be playing the London Podcast Festival, and as well as playing to a live room full of people at King's Place in London, we will be live streaming the event so that you can watch it from wherever you are in the world.

So for those who have never made it to a a live show before and always wondered what it's like, this is the full experience.

This is a sort of warts and all version that you'll get to see.

It's all the bloopers, it's all the extra bits that end up getting edited out.

There's all the admin at the top of the show.

Who doesn't love admin at the top of a show?

Imagine getting to see that.

It's going to be a great night.

Also, as Anne is now off on maternity, we're going to be joined by some really fun guests.

We've already sort of announced one of them on Instagram, but if you didn't see that video, on the 6th of September, we are going to be joined by one of the UK's best-selling authors of all time, Richard Osman.

That's going to be an awesome show.

That's on the 6th.

We'll be making another announcement for who will be joining us on the 5th soon, but in the meantime, if you want to get tickets, they are available now.

Just go to no such thingasoffish.com slash live and get your live streaming tickets now.

All right, last thing to say before we get into the show is some very exciting news back at QIHQ.

The Lunchbox Envy podcast has been picked up by BBC Sounds.

So if you happen to listen to your podcast there, do type in the words Lunchbox Envy now, and you'll be able to get access to the most quite interesting food-based podcast there is in podcast land.

Each episode deals with a different kind of food.

So the episode that went up a few days ago was all about cheese, where they answer the big cheese questions like, you know, how do they put the holes in Swiss cheese?

Who eats the world's hardest cheese?

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And there's over 30 episodes you can access now.

Everything from pastry through to butter and chocolate.

You must check them out.

But specifically, do check them out now at BBC Sounds.

All right, let's get into the show.

On with the podcast.

Hello, and welcome to another episode of No Such Thing as a Fish, a weekly podcast coming to you from the QI offices in Hoburn.

My name is Dan Schreiber.

I am sitting here with Anna Toshinsky, James Harkin, and Andrew Hunter Murray.

And once again, we have gathered around the microphones with our four favorite facts from the last seven days.

And in no particular order, here we go.

Starting with fact number one, and that is James.

Okay, my fact this week is that if you are 20 years old now, there is a chance that your great-grandparents might have met thanks to computer dating.

It doesn't make sense.

I had to ask James to explain this even after we'd said this would be our fact.

I said, that doesn't work, James.

And he proved it.

Go on, prove it.

Prove it.

So for the harder thinking who are listening, this is an article that I read.

It was written by Adrian Covert in Gizmodo, and it's about a guy called Lewis Altfest.

And Lewis saw a penpal machine which let you fill down a questionnaire and then it fed it into a machine and it found you the perfect pen pal.

And he decided that he would do the same with dating.

So he called up his friend called Robert Ross, who worked at IBM, and they made a computer program called TACT that stood for Technical Automated Compatibility Testing.

They did that in New York, and it was in 1964.

So, for instance, if your great-grandparents got together due to TACT in 1964, your grandmother could be born in 1965, she could have had your mother in 1985, and then your mother could have had you in 2005, and you would be 20 this year.

Yeah, stunning.

It was crazy.

it was amazing at the time it was such like everyone thought computers would know the answer as well it wasn't the best at pairing people it did at one point match an older brother with his younger sister um

they have a lot in common

and i turned out fine

yeah that actually weirdly i think shows it does work shared interests yeah it's just you haven't put in the anti-incest um layer into the program you haven't clicked that button most people would click that button

he was crossing his fingers, that guy.

So, is this the one?

Because I read about one of the very early computer dating services, and it asked clients to pick from the dislikes.

And the dislikes were, I'd say, very much of their time.

Yes, this is the one you're talking about.

So, from one to six, it was, what do you think about affected people?

I think that's a really good question.

Like, I'm a bit affected, you know.

You mean like people who have affectations?

Exactly, a bit pretentious, I presume.

And that means they've been affected by

a typo for infected.

But who's saying I love those?

Are there people going,

what about the 60s?

Some people had affectations in the 60s, and that was cool.

It was the new age, man.

But I think, like, it wasn't that you only picked one of them.

You kind of picked them in order that kind of thing.

Because two through six that you might dislike were birth control, foreigners, free love, homosexuals, and interracial marriage.

But it never says sisters.

Yeah,

that was true.

So you paid $5, basically, and you would answer loads of questions.

You would also, the men would be asked to rank women's hairstyles.

Women would be shown pictures of men in different settings.

So there'd be a man chopping wood, a man who was painting, and a man who was in a garage working with a drill.

And you had to say which of those you fancy the most.

The drill and the chopping wood are very similar, aren't they?

What are the two different personality types?

Well, some people are more discerning than you, Anna.

That just sounds like outdoorsy versus indoorsy to me.

I suppose.

Drill is indoorsy.

Yeah.

I think like chopping wood shows muscular strength, whereas drill shows more kind of industrial ability.

DIY maybe.

And

these things, they started off and they were kind of thought of as a gimmick.

So for instance, this guy at Altfest, he just gave up in the end on his tact.

But actually, he met his partner due to.

tact did he um yeah so he married a reporter who'd come to interview him about how terrible his machine was

and they hit it off um yeah they were funny there was another one in 1965 in New York, which is called Operation Match.

I was reading the memories of someone who went on one of those and had three very unsuccessful dates.

But the way all these things worked, I guess, is you sent in a bit of money and you filled out a questionnaire, which could be very long.

So Operation Match was 75 questions.

And then they took your questionnaire and they tried to match it up with others using a computer algorithm, which is why it was computerized or computer dating.

But the questions were, I couldn't work out why this one existed.

So there was a question in this one, which was, I'd consider dating a woman as young as or a man as old as.

So if you're a man, it was a woman as young as

17 or whatever.

And if you were a woman, it was like, I consider dating a man as old as that.

Right.

But you wouldn't ask a woman, I consider dating a man as young as.

Did it just assume that women would date men who were infinitely young?

The cougar had not been invented.

That's what we're saying.

Yeah, I think that is what we're saying.

Yeah.

Yeah, I suppose so.

Very weird.

And then, are you sexually experienced or inexperienced?

And also, what does this mean?

Is extensive sexual activity preparation for your marriage?

Yes or no?

Answer.

See previous question.

So Operation Match was invented by Jeff Tarr and Vaughan Morrill.

Jeff Tarr met his wife not by going on and doing it himself, but someone who was using Operation Match said, oh, I know someone who you'd be good with.

So they met up, they got married.

They had a daughter called Jennifer.

She goes on to marry the co-founder of OK Cupid.

No.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So dating apps are declining a lot, right?

In the UK, I think users are dropping.

Oh, really?

The really big sites, things like Tinder, and it's because people get exhausted and they get burned out with them.

And it's just this endless array of new faces.

You can start thinking everyone's the same.

And it's also, it's very sort of private.

So the pool of dates is massive, but you don't have any friends in common.

So people often behave badly.

You know, they don't get back in touch or whatever.

I see.

Yeah, so if you date someone who's a friend of your friend, then you kind of feel like you can't be an asshole because it'll get back to you.

There's a shame mechanism there, whereas you can absolutely just ghost some random person you've met once and all of that.

I don't know.

But

I found this claim that some sites are saying things like, if you pay a lot extra, like if you pay 45 quid a month, you'll go on three times as many dates, right?

Okay.

So

this is just to say, yesterday I said to my wife, I'm downloading Hinge, by the way, because I wanted to test if there are special offers on.

But what I forgot to say was that I was doing this as part of podcast research.

From her perspective, I just said, I'm downloading Hinge.

I want to see if they've got special offers right now.

Okay.

Let's not put out this fact ever, and then she'll never have cause to believe that that's what you were doing.

I think my favourite thing is Love Getty.

Did you come across this gadget?

1.3 million were sold, so it was quite popular.

Is it spaghetti?

Love spaghetti.

It's just with people who love spaghetti, yes.

Is it not people who just love John Paul Getty?

It's neither these.

Polgetty images?

Is that the word?

Any further guesses?

Yes,

get you love.

Love Getty.

It's a love getter.

There we go.

And this is a thing in Japan in 1998.

Basically, it was a thing that you kept in your pocket.

And if you saw someone who was a bit fit, then you turned it on.

And if they had the same gadget, then their gadget would buzz.

Or you keep yours on all the time.

And whenever you were within 15 feet of someone who had a gadget that was also turned on, it would buzz and you could be like, oh my God, something's buzzing.

Can I just say, so what you do is when you see someone attractive, you start fiddling in your pockets.

I mean, yeah.

There's a small vibration.

I don't think you need a buzzer.

I think people are going to know what you think immediately.

It's such a bad idea.

It's like it's a stalker's charter.

But also, the flaw seems to be that, let's say I'm looking across the room at Barry, and I think he's hot, and I turn my thing on, and Barry doesn't have one of these love Gettys, but Norman on the other side of the tube carriage does have one.

His goes off.

And then he's looking at me, thinking she fancies me.

She's fiddling on her panel.

Is she squiddling?

Isn't that a love getty in her pocket?

In Spain at the moment, if you go to supermarkets after seven o'clock, you might not be able to get a pineapple.

Okay.

Okay.

Just a complaint from my last holiday.

No, so this is a TikTok video that's been going around telling people that if you're lonely to go to your nearest Macadonia supermarket to take a pineapple and put it upside down in your shopping cart and then see if anyone else is doing the same

and if two upside down pineapples see each other then they might get together so that's just like the love getty it's a slightly more basic version of lovegetty but at least you've got deniability whereas if you've got a love getty it's it it buzzes whereas if you just got a pineapple you could say oh no i'm just it's upside down though isn't it

i'm making a pina colada well the problem is that basically the trend has taken off a little bit in Spain.

Police have been called to unruly crowds of people trying to find pineapples.

And employees of Mercadonia are so sick of it, they've been hiding their pineapples at five to seven, so no one can get them.

It's a huge pain, people just walking around the shop with a single pineapple in their basket.

Like, you're a business here.

You're trying to sell other goods.

Do we not think they buy the pineapples at the end?

Do you think some people probably just do it, get their date, and then put the pineapple back?

I think if you don't get the date, you would do that.

If you do get the date, probably you want to show that you're not a skin flint and that you can afford a pineapple.

That's a really good point.

I'll get this, darling.

Does that happen here, or is that just in Spain?

Uh, just in Spain, okay.

The um supermarket chain Mercadonia has yet to get into the British market.

But next time, Andy, you're in a supermarket with your wife, just make sure it's the right way up.

That and Hinge combined.

Oh, no, something's definitely going on.

Well, do you remember Ashley Madison, the cheating website?

Yeah, no, do you not?

Damn, damn, that was so impossible.

The what website?

Well, this list of hacked email addresses says different.

Okay, let's move on.

Type it back on me too.

No, no, no.

This is amazing, right?

So it was an affairs website, okay?

And it marketed itself to mostly blokes who say, hey, you want to have an affair?

Then join Ashley Madison.

They were hacked into by some disgruntled staffers or former staff or something.

And ha ha ha, it turned out 95% of the members of Ashley Madison were men, right?

So that was the headline that went around the world.

It was quite a big story at the time.

The really interesting thing is, a journalist called Annalee Newitz looked into it, found something much more perturbing.

It was that the parent company, who were called Avid Life Media, had made 70,000 fake women bots.

They would just say things like, hi, and what's up?

And the men thought they were talking to real women.

Like, there were 11 million interactions in the database between human men and bot women, and the men were paying for every message.

Right.

And the company was paying workers to generate these fake profiles.

So it was basically real people interacting with bots having no idea.

Wow.

That's quite, that's the really sinister thing, you know.

And let's talk about our level of sympathy for these men because I suddenly feel really bad for them.

But I suppose they had gone on a website to cheat on their wives.

In a way, they're doing something good, aren't they?

This company, because this hypothetical man has gone on the website to cheat on his wife, but they're just putting a fake thing up that he can chat to, so he's not going to be able to have the affair.

What is sin?

I think is what we're asking.

he wants he thinks he is sinning so is he if he's if i'm just talking to a chat bot yeah that's for

i remember years ago when there was the rise of niche dating places uh when i was single i went on to i think it was like a ghost hunters dating site

yeah and i got on it and uh it's just it was just men it was just all men but they get the ghost dating yeah but their profiles with their blurb came up and all of them sounded so interesting so i actually messaged a couple yeah just to say like hey can you tell me about ghost hunting?

Because I'm not actually interested sexually.

I'm just like, you sound really interesting.

Who would like to meet?

I've got one last example of someone who made it big in the world of creating online dating, a guy called Gary Cremon, who created match.com.

What's impressive about him is he seemed to have just cleaned up on domain names early on, right?

Because that's where he's made a large fortune from.

So he owned sex.com.

Can you imagine owning sex.com?

yeah and there was a big case where someone forged fake documents so that the domain name went over to them and he had to fight them for years and years and there's now an outstanding bill of 65 million that is owed to gary cremon which has not yet been paid by this what's on sex.com is it porn i guess he he was going to use it in the way that he was using match.com but match.com just flew like into huge success immediately so it was just kind of sitting there dormant um he also owned computer.com uh which he sold for 500 000 um but he set up match.com and even his girlfriend found a partner on there, which wasn't him.

She joined up and met someone else and left him.

Yeah.

And he said, look how successful it is.

What are you hoping for if you buy computer.com?

Whereas the old people going on Google and typing computer.com because they think that's how they turn it on.

It's very much like Donald Trump saying, everything is computer now.

It's a bit.

Okay.

Stop the podcast.

Stop the podcast.

Hi, Dan.

Have you ever thought about learning a new language?

Yeah, all the time.

English, perhaps?

I'm trying.

Trying my best.

Well, I know a lot of people like to learn new languages and it is a really good way of expanding your worldview.

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But it's really useful for all sorts of things when you're traveling.

You might watch some TV shows that are in a different language.

You pick a little bit of bit of extra stuff up that you wouldn't normally.

It's a great thing to do.

Yeah, I mean, if you're going overseas, you've got to do the courtesy now of learning the basic language of the country you're going to.

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Okay, on with the podcast.

On with the podcast.

Okay, it is time for fact number two, and that is my fact.

My fact this week is that one of the original 57 Boy Scout badges was the invention badge, which required kids to not only invent something new, but obtain a patent for it too.

It's so hard.

I mean, it's a lengthy process to get a patent in America for invention.

Is it hard?

Because there's so much random shit that's been patented that you see.

That never went anywhere.

I always seem it's a piece of piss, actually.

Yeah, I always thought you could just draw a picture on a beer mat and just send it in and they'd give you a patent.

I don't think it works like that.

This idea of yours for a beer mat is incredible, so it's not as easy as it looks.

Is it quite a process?

Well, I think it's, I think it costs.

You got to pay in order to have it accepted to the submission and so on.

Like, it's, yeah, it's a lengthy process.

And basically, they dropped the badge largely because no one was really achieving it.

So, the invention badge, it's part of the American Boy Scout specifically.

There were 57 original merit badges that you could get, like archery and swimming and so on.

And invention was part of it.

So, that launched in 1911 and they took it out by 1914.

And only 10 scouts in that time managed to get it, which I think is a very high number.

Actually, only nine got it in that time.

One person got it in 1915 because he'd already started with his invention.

So they're like, oh, well, I guess you can have it.

That's apparently one of the rules with a badge that's been stopped.

If you've started the process of trying to get it, you can finish them.

And the inventions have not survived.

Most of them have not survived.

We don't know what was patented, but we do know one by Graham Thomas Smallwood, which was a scout's uniform with a removable sleeve to stop your Boy Scout badge arm getting dirty.

I think it's a great idea.

That's really great.

But it's yeah, it's not just that.

You could take the sleeve off and use it to sew badges onto it.

You can carry on wearing the rest of your Boy Scout jacket.

Just take the whole jacket off, mate.

I must have another shirt.

But I think you still had, from what I could see on the drawing, you still had an underneath sleeve.

It was a sort of on top.

So it's not, you didn't look like someone had just ripped it.

Well, there was a few different things you could do.

You could do that, and then you could also put a secondary sleeve on top of your other sleeve.

Okay.

So it's like a prophylactic sleeve.

Was that so it matched the other side?

It starts getting dirty.

Stop shooting.

Yeah, sleeve getting dirty and we've all got these things these days so like you're walking down the street and you lean on some wet paint and everyone laughs at you because you've got paint on your arm you go ha ha and you pull off your fake sleeve amazing yeah yeah incredible richly deserved patent and badge i can't believe he's not famous they had terrific badges back in the day other discontinued boy scout badges on the wikipedia for them is top draw reading there's beef production Yep, that's good.

Lasted until 1975.

You get a Boy Scout badge for beef production.

Blacksmithing, Nut culture, hog and pork production, taxidermy.

Interestingly, hog and pork production was discontinued in 1958.

So I wonder what the discrepancy between pork and beef is.

We must keep

the beef scouts going.

Were there a lot of nine-year-old farmers in those days?

No.

To get the pork production badge, you needed to confer with meat market men and from their instruction, draw a diagram of a hog and mark and name the parts for butcher classification.

Nice.

I think that is good.

I think our children should be learning that kind of stuff.

I love those details, all the things that they had to do.

Like farmhouse and planning was one of the merit badges you could get.

And as part of that, you had to present a drawing plan of sewerage disposal for a country home.

Amazing.

I mean, these are the skills of the future.

I don't know.

I don't like that element.

It reminds me a lot of Duke of Edinburgh.

I don't know if anyone did that, where basically you thought it was just going on a fun walk, and there's all this background stuff you also have to do.

So, all the badges still, there's the family life badge, which is quite nice.

It basically means being a good little boy or girl to your parents.

But you have to write this full proposal, don't you, at the start and make lists and then submit various essays on it.

It doesn't mean anything to be good to your parents if you're doing it just to get a badge, does it?

I think whatever, whatever works.

Whatever works.

I agree.

Stalking badge was another one, by the way.

Stalking badge.

They just renamed that as tracking, just to make it more acceptable.

Do you know what the rarest badge that anyone got in 2024 was?

again this is all american boy scouts we should say yeah in fact i think pretty much everything we've said is american boy scouts so okay i i would say in 2024 because there are like some old school badges like um hog and pork production but there are new ones there anyway there are new ones like um you know

being woke or whatever yeah is it one of the new or the old school ones that was the least complete oh it's old school american is it motorboating because i think that that move your head between women's boots well that's the thing i think that's got connotations now it is a badge but I bet a lot of people are doing the wrong thing when they try to get it.

I see what you mean.

Only one kid actually drove a motorboat.

The others all just went

and hoped they get it.

My god.

It's not that.

Okay.

I'm trying to think if this actual thing could have any sexual connotation.

Schooner construction.

I mean it's a very difficult thing to guess really.

It's something that you might associate with the army as opposed to the scouting movement.

Okay.

Something that one person in an army regiment would do.

Oh, only because I read through the big list.

Is it bugling?

It's bugling.

Yes.

I don't know if that is another sexual term.

It feels like it probably should be.

It certainly could be, couldn't it?

But yeah, the least common are bugling, surveying, stamp collecting, drafting, composite materials.

And then it goes on.

We've lost so many of our trips.

The top three, or top one, top one badge in 2024.

I think pioneering, because it's so classic.

That's the one with like ropes and building.

Not where you put a pie in your ear.

I've got to get off urban dictionary.com.

I just hope to God, Anna, you never meet a young boy scout who tells you they're doing a motorboat.

And you're going, go on, go on, mate.

Show me your skills.

Don't mind my mate with the pies in his ears.

He's just going for his.

So pioneering, that's your guess.

That's right.

This is easy to get, I remember.

Is it like helping the person?

Geocaching.

It's helping a person, but in a very specific way.

Helping old women across the road.

There's no badge for that.

First aid.

Correct.

The biggest gain in popularity in 2024.

This one went from the 121st most popular badge to the 81st most popular badge.

And it's something that one of us round this table enjoys.

But it's a skill.

It's not like

wanging on about electric cars or something.

Thank you.

Was it being a lush, James?

Being weird on ghost dating websites.

I wasn't being weird.

I was being friendly.

It was

the wife guy badge.

No, no, it wasn't.

It wasn't.

It was the golf badge.

Oh,

clever.

Claw twist.

It was him.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

We were looking at the screen.

That's very good.

That's very good.

There is this really big thing of, oh,

all the badges, they've gone all woke, blah, blah, blah.

And it's a very, very tiresome talking point because there are things like there's a money skills one or, you know, or the scouts digital citizen or, you know, or this.

Actually, loads of them are just absolutely straight down the line.

Like athletics, air researcher, angler, caver, climber.

They're just absolute root one classic scout stuff.

Oh, yeah.

They're all the classics, except one of the really early classics, the swastika badge, which I don't think is on my list.

No.

Baden-powered love the swastika badge.

What?

He thought it should be like the defining badge of the scouts.

So what are you talking about?

In 1921, he wrote, quite rightly, that the swastika is a symbol used in every part of the world, in the ancient world, in the modern day.

But now it stands for the badge of fellowship among scouts.

And how you used it was, if you're a Boy Scout, you always carried around a collection of swastika badges.

And if someone did you a good turn, like gave you a leg up or a pie, then you gave them a badge and you said, always wear this.

And that means if a Boy Scout ever saw you, they had to offer to do you a good turn.

So are we misunderstanding the Nazis?

They just did a lot of good turns for the scouts over years.

Yeah.

It was actually just a big sponsored march into Poland.

Because Baden Powell, because that was obviously when the swastika had not been adopted by the Nazis.

But he was a bit fascistic.

So in 1937, he wanted to form close ties with German youth movements.

He wrote in his diary in 1939 that Mein Kampf was a wonderful book with good ideas on education, health, propaganda, organisation, etc.

I would agree on the propaganda front.

Well, it did work, didn't it?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, obviously, he couldn't have known how it would turn out, but yeah, wow, that puts the shows the sources of thing in a whole new light.

I don't want to say, by the way, I'm not saying he was an out-and-out fascist.

He was just a complicated character, very old-fashioned these days, but had amazing ideas about getting young people organized and working together, helping each other, all of that, like raising good citizens.

And it impressed the world.

So, the reason the American Scout started, there's an origin story, which is such like, it's like King Arthur.

It's just like total bullshit.

But it's a guy called W.D.

Boyce, and W.D.

Boyce is one of the five co-founders of the Scout.

Scouting for Boyce.

Scouting for boys.

So you got Baden-Powell, who obviously is the British originator, but in America, you then had W.D.

Boyce, you had Daniel Carter Beard, James E.

West, and then you had Ernest Thompson Setton.

The idea is that W.D.

Boyce was in England.

He's an American newspaper guy, and he was walking through a foggy street at night, couldn't really see anything, when out through the fog came a Boy Scout and said, Let me help you across the road and let me get you to where you need to go.

And he thought, wow, this young man with impeccable behavior, what is this?

Oh, you're a Boy Scout.

I must do that.

And he got taken to Baden-Powell and immediately said, I'll set it up.

Now, we know that it wasn't even foggy that day that he was there in the UK.

But who's bothered to do that research?

Well, people who try to work out meteorologists.

Because there's a lot of sort of questions about who actually is the original founder of the American Boy Scout.

So often it's raining outside and I look at my phone app and it says it's not raining.

And that's like literally happening.

right now.

I don't trust this stuff.

Yeah, I mean, who knows?

But that's the kind of the story that was created, the mythology behind it.

The other guy was Ernest Thompson Setton.

There's a great fact I read in a Margaret Atwork book about him, which is when he turned 21, his father handed him a bill charging him for all the expenses associated with his childhood, including the fee for his delivery at birth.

Just hand it to him.

Yes,

he's one of the founders of the American Voice.

I will not do that for my daughter, just to say because she was on the NHS.

Dayton Powell, yeah, he married a a woman called Olaf Soames.

He was 55 and she was 23 when they got married.

And the wedding present for those two, the scouts, were each encouraged to contribute one penny.

And 100,000 of them did it.

And they bought him a car, which is quite cool.

And then in 1929, to celebrate the 21st birthday of the scouts, they all did the same again.

But at this stage, there were 4 million scouts and guides around the world.

Wow.

And so they bought him a Rolls-Royce.

Oh,

isn't that cool?

long long con yeah

they started admitting girls in 2019 the Boy Scouts of America and

who did this piss off

oh the daily mail readers

was this someone in the Baden Powell sort of family or because he I mean he very much so his sister ran the girl guides though when they started well that's it was the girl scouts right right sorry girl scouts yeah yeah so yeah they they are furious about this because they now call themselves the BSA to try and take the boy out of their

name.

And the girls basically said the whole reason they've done this is to help with their massively plummeting membership.

They're trying to steal Girl Scouts from our movement, from us.

And they're suing them.

And

people who want their children to join the Girl Scouts, they might just Google Girl Scouts and get the...

girl members of the boy scouts yeah absolutely

so there's beef if it's called the there's beef there's not since 1968 or is it?

It's gone off now.

Lovely.

So hopefully they'll fight and then loot you back.

But they're called the BSA now.

I believe so, yeah.

Girl Scouts of America.

What does the B stand for, if not for boy?

Well, you, but you don't know.

So you're hiding it, aren't you?

That's the whole point.

Why didn't the girls start letting boys in?

Yes.

Yeah, I can see how that's the logical daily mail commenter's response.

Sorry, I thought that was the woke response.

You're trying to get your woke, man.

Let me knock down the Girl Scouts because it's about time someone down a peg or two.

They, according to a blog called Weighty Matters, are saddling America with a huge amount of obesity thanks to the Girl Scout cookies that they sell every year.

So, according to this person on the blog, they worked out that the Girl Scout cookies that are sold every year account to three quarters of a million pounds of trans fat.

That's 3.5 billion teaspoons of sugar that they add to the American food supply.

Well, that does sound bad.

But we need overall figures, I think, because that's a bit...

It can't just be the Girl Scout cookies.

Oh, no, there's other stuff going on.

But it doesn't help.

It doesn't help.

It doesn't help.

It doesn't help.

They're trying to fatten up the boys, make them easier to defeat.

Okay, it is time for fact number three, and that is Andy.

My fact is that one of London's oldest windows is made of cowhorn.

Oh.

The window itself.

Glass, as it were.

The glass substitute.

Can you see through it?

Because if not, I say that isn't a window.

Well, judge for yourself, James, because I've got a photo here of me this morning at the cowhorn window.

I can see you, but you are in front of it.

Oh, yeah, but you can see through it.

It's very see-throughable.

So, horn, it turns out, is a fantastic window material, beaten maybe only by glass.

But this is in London.

It's a place called Guildhall.

So, there's a separate thing called the City of London, which is different to London, right?

The City of London is the sort of ancient body.

It's

part of London, really.

It's right in the middle of London, definitely.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You're still in London.

But the actual Guild Hall itself, the town hall of the City of London, dates back to the 14th century.

Like it's the oldest non-religious building in London.

You know, there are a couple of abbeys and cathedrals and things that are older, but it's really old.

And this window dates back to the 15th century.

So it has survived any manner of stuff.

All the other windows in the place have been replaced.

Like there's been the Blitz, there's been the Great Fire of London.

This window is still there all these years later.

It's kind of amazing.

Come on, kids, go and play football outside.

How dare you?

And it's made of cow horn.

So you pop the horn off the cow, you slice it up, you heat that, and then you can mold it into this amazing, really pretty transparent window material.

It's stunning.

It's so cool.

And is it incredibly strong?

Is that how it's survived?

Okay, so

that makes it all the more amazing that we've still got it, right?

It's not only not incredible.

I mean, it's decent.

You know, glass from the time is not incredibly strong either.

And until the 18th century, cow horn was used largely for translucent sheets to go into, like lanterns.

The word lantern comes from Lanthorn, you know, because it would have horns.

The sides of it were horn.

I don't think it does, I think.

Because I was like, that's why they always spell it weird in old books.

Because obviously, you know, you read old, like Shakespeare will say it, Lanthorne in old 19th century novels.

Sometimes you see Lanthorne.

So I was like, that explains it.

But actually, lantern just comes from Latin, like meaning light.

But people then did the old, got confused.

Lots of their lanterns were made out of horn.

So they went, should we shove a horn on the end?

And I read a quite annoyed encyclopedia entry from about 1803 saying lanthorn is a completely incorrect spelling of this based on the misconception.

So that's just idiots from the 18th century.

But it is based on the fact that lanterns were made of horn.

Absolutely horrible.

The misconception was.

That's really interesting.

It's so cool.

I saw, I mean, basically, in the 15th century, they had the equivalent of laminated menus.

There were the horn books that students would use where they would have all the alphabet on it you've got like wooden frames where you've got horn that's written on with the alphabet to learn from and things like that yeah but you've also got ancient books which have a square of horn on the front to protect what's beneath like a very valuable old bit of parchment or vellum or whatever so the horn window covers that but it's quite delicious for insects so a lot of the very old ones are just nibbled away at around the edges the alphabet books that dan was talking about are called hornbooks and the hornbook is also the title of a book from 1889, which is thought of as the principal work on sex technique in the English language.

It's basically

1889.

I didn't think.

Yeah, I didn't think they had that, though.

That's why it's interesting.

Where do you think your great-great-great-great-great-great-grandmother came from?

So it's like the Karma Sutra, basically, but for Victorian England.

Wow.

And they had sex techniques.

Number one, the ordinary.

What was that then?

Was that actually in 1888 that was upside down

and back to front?

Here's some more.

Number five, the St.

George.

Whoa.

Because you're sort of prodding a dragon.

Number nine, the view of the low countries.

Oh,

that is good.

Number 48, Waste Not, Want Not.

And number 63, The Sack of Corn Backwards.

Wow.

None of these say much about the people involved, do they?

No.

What's the connection to horn?

Sorry?

It's called the Hornbook.

Oh, that's it.

Sorry.

It's like if you Google, I'm just warning people, if they Google Hornbooks to get these alphabet books, they might accidentally get this one.

Do be careful if you're on horn.com.

There's a cleaner hornbook fact, which I quite liked, which was a poem that was written in 1622, which said, because they were the thing you went to for your learning your first letters.

And it read, Even so the hornbook is the seed and grain of skill by which we learning first obtain.

And it was written by William Hornby.

Oh, that's really good.

Can I give you another one like that?

Please.

The largest brothel in Europe is situated on Horn Street.

Is it?

Yeah.

I was trying to raise the tone.

Well, it's gone straight back down again.

It's in Cologne and it has 120 sex workers working there.

And it was Europe's first high-rise brothel.

But how many of the customers are going looking for alphabet books for their kids?

Most of them, yeah.

I think the the architectural thing is not the interesting thing there.

As in, I've stayed in the largest hotel in Thessaloniki, and it's not a guarantee of quality, it turns out.

When you just say Europe's largest brothel doesn't mean best.

That's true.

They basically had a red light district in the town centre and decided to do away with it and get this huge multi-story building as well.

And it advertises money-back guarantee in the case of unsatisfactory service.

No.

Yeah.

It's so awkward to complain, isn't it?

This sack of corn wasn't backwards at all.

Have you guys heard of the worshipful company of Horners?

Yes, I know someone who's connected.

Get out.

Well, because London has all these guilds, which are the worshipful company of, and then you insert very old-fashioned

trade.

So this is a thing that dates back to 1284.

And it was a guild for people who worked with Horn people.

And it was a huge business at the time, obviously, because all the people needed lanterns and windows and horn books and other uses of horn there are thousands now they declined obviously when pesky glass stupid glass took over the window industry and they were in the doldrums for centuries but they came back any guesses what they um sort of reimagined themselves as oh buglers it's not buglers

they just can't get enough buglers through the door i'm just thinking like if they're still called the horners they're still called the horners but they took on another industry

related to what they did in the first place i i read this earlier today and i just couldn't believe i never made the connection but shoehorns are made of horn it wasn't yes that's true that's not that's not the gigantic industry come on come on globally everyone's got a shoehorn absolutely that's it um microchips

no it's it's plastics oh no horn was the original plastic you heat it you can mold it so these days all the members of the worshipful company of horners are from the city from the plastics industry they have uh they sponsor the Polymer Apprentice of the Year award.

Big deal in my case.

Huge as a scout badge.

Yeah.

That's amazing.

Yeah, that's really cool.

Do you know that actually being a horner is pretty tricky today?

Is it?

If you're a true horner, not one of these plastic people, but you're a person who wants to make things out of horn, it is difficult because of breeding and modern farming and feeding has changed what horns are like.

So the material is not as good for molding as it used to be.

And it'll quite often retain what they call its memory.

So you kind of flatten it and then you put it into whatever shape you want it to be.

But it kind of remembers that it was horn-shaped before and you can't get it flat properly.

So you come down to your horn.

You come down to your new car window and it's just back in the shape of a cow horn.

There's a cow there instead.

You ride it to work.

So did you read about the Abbey Horn hornworks?

Go for it.

We've said the word horn so much.

I just love it.

Anyway, sorry, it's on the edge of the lake district.

It's the only hornworks left in the UK.

Right.

Because it's an endangered craft these days because there are only about 10 to 20 horn workers left.

And I think most of them work at Abbey Horn.

It's been there for nearly 300 years.

And you can get some bloody good stuff there.

Yeah.

Just going through their website.

And just, you get a horn moustache brush, some bloody good shoe horns, Dan.

You'd love it.

Okay, send me that link.

Some foot-long monsters.

And actually, James, as you were saying, because horn has changed, they get some of theirs from, like, I think it's African cattle called the Angkol, because they have massive, great horns.

And you might want to buy a novelty drinking horn if your partner is into being a Viking or whatever.

How is it?

Like, are you allowed to buy and sell this kind of horn compared to, like, obviously, ivory, you're not allowed to, and lots of other, like, rhino horns you can't.

It's fine.

It is fine because all of these cattle that they're buying the horns of were bred for farming and were

they certainly weren't killed for their horns.

On drinking horns, obviously, a huge use of horn.

And Vikings really did massively popularize them.

It really, it was kind of the Vikings that brought them to the UK, although they'd been used before.

But did you know that

they also brought such a drinking culture that got so bad by the 10th century that King Edgar who you all know uh it was the late 10th century English king said that every village had to be limited to one alehouse and every single drinking horn that any punter drank out of had to have pins inserted at certain levels a bit like you have measures on cups today and whoever drank beyond those intervals in one swig had to be severely punished.

Whoa, right.

Which is a tough to monitor as a bar person.

Policing that, yeah.

it.

But is it because did it lead to drinking culture?

I think because you can't put it down.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's

like a cocktail party where there's no table.

Yeah.

It's a nightmare.

You know, you fill up your horn and you're just stuck around holding it.

Yeah, I must say the Vikings coming to northern England in the 10th century is just like you going to a cocktail party.

There's nowhere to put it down.

And often you lose track of your own horn.

And what's good is to put a little hairband around your own horn.

Well, you're the only one who comes with a horn holder to make sure you can put it down between sips.

Can you think of another use of the word horning?

To be horned.

Horned my horns use.

I'm thinking of horning in on a situation.

Oh, like honing in.

No, it's sort of where you interrupt.

Oh, here Anna comes horning in on our conversation.

Oh, yeah, very good, whatever.

No, not that.

This is in a kind of sport, but a very old-fashioned European sport.

Marrying the Habsburg

queen.

Yes, it's a sport.

Very good.

No, it's in bullfighting, it's when you get gored by a bull.

It's known as a horning.

It's been a horning in the morning.

Yes.

Morning horning would be a good Royal Rumble thing for bullfighting, just in case the bullfighting people are listening, wanting to rev it up a bit.

The record for most hornings is by a guy called Antonio Barrera, who has been horned 23 times.

Is that a good record?

Do you want that guy on your team?

The guy from Guinness is saying, I'm so sorry, I missed the 16th horning, so you're not going to get the record.

Wait, how many of of those were the same occasion?

They were all different occasions.

The most common place to be horned.

Spain, I imagine.

Are your buddy?

Oh,

in the ring.

In the ring,

in the upper leg.

And second place is the perineal area.

Second most popular.

That's a shape.

Do they have guards?

Do they wear boxes?

No, they don't.

Bullfighters.

No, no, they wear

very tight trousers, don't they?

If only there was some system where there could be some kind of clown in the ring who was able to distract the attention of the bull.

What, some rodeo clown idiot?

I guess you'd call them that, yeah.

Have you heard of the German island of Borkum?

No.

This is a place that has a Christmas festival called Klassholm, right?

Or Klass Um.

And they had this tradition for many, many years there where men dress up in elaborate costumes and spank women with cow horns

on the bottom.

And this led to controversy recently because a lot of the women said, actually, we really don't like this

stop using the pointy end stop well i mean stop we don't like being spanked or you know we're being spanked without permission on christmas but last year there was a huge crackdown on cow horn spanking on borkham

and uh it passed without any spanking without any complaints certainly without any complaints there may have been private consensual cowhorn i think that's fine absolutely and in fact when there was this big protest like loads of the women saying can you stop hitting us with cowhorns on the bum every christmas this is not fun a couple of hundred women did launch a counter protest saying we love it it's our way of life, this is our tradition.

So, there's definitely debate, but for the moment, it appears that the involuntary cowhorn spanking is over.

Well, why don't the women just spank the men back?

Or I'm sorry, is that the daily mail comments coming out again?

I think that takes the fun out of it.

It's like giving someone a wedgie.

It's not smart giving someone a wedgie, is it?

If you have to say beforehand, is it okay if I give you a wedge?

Are we saying, Anna, that consent takes the fun out of things?

Because I do think we're on thin ice.

Okay, it is time for our final fact of the show, and that is Anna.

My fact this week is that Jack Kerouac wrote his most famous novel on one long scroll.

Was it sold in scroll form ever?

Yeah, the audiobug started.

Oh, yay, oh, yay!

That's an interesting question.

It sort of is today, but not at the time.

It has, as in that scroll, has been sold.

I think, yeah, that scroll, you're right.

You can go and visit it.

I can't remember what it's in a museum somewhere.

It's owned by, or it was owned, unfortunately, he died this year, Jim Ursay, who owns the Indianapolis Colts American football team.

Okay.

Yeah.

There you go.

Obviously, that's where it would be owned by.

No, no, he's a big, maybe we'll talk about it later.

Let's get into the fact, but he was a huge collector, this guy.

Oh, cool.

Yeah, I've got a big old list of other cool things he has.

All right.

Well, excited to skip ahead to that.

But first of all, Jack Kerouac.

Yeah, he wrote on a long scroll and basically he got annoyed because he was a writer who typed very fast and it all came flowing through him and out of his fingertips.

And he thought you should never have to pause or stop or have your flow interrupted.

Or think at all about the next sentence.

Maybe I'll put a main verb in this one, that kind of stuff.

Why would you think about the next sentence considering it's about five pages away?

Which we should say if you read any Jack Kerouac, it is very

stream of consciousness.

It's interesting.

Maybe we'll also get into a big debate over who who likes his style and who doesn't.

I think I know around this table who's going to be the fan.

But he didn't like to reload his typewriter with bits of paper.

So he got this massive scroll.

It was made of like teletype paper, kind of like tracing paper, thick tracing paper.

And he taped it all together.

And then he made a 120-foot-long scroll.

This is in 1951.

And he was writing on the road.

That was the name of the book.

Yes.

Sorry.

Sorry, yeah.

He was writing in his bedroom, but on the road.

And when he was finished, he marched into his editor's office.

He was a guy called Robert Giroux, and he was to unspun the scroll across the floor like you would unroll a rug.

And Giroux just said, Jack.

Don't you realize that's not how authors present manuscripts?

I can't do anything with this.

Take it away.

I think he did know that that's not how you present manuscripts.

Also, it is often presented as if he did the stream of consciousness, he handed it over, and that's it.

That's not the case.

He spent years and years editing it.

It's a very highly edited document.

Not that it seems like like it, but yeah.

Should we say who Jack Kerouac is briefly?

Like American, part of the beat generation, post-war countercultural writers who were rebelling against the way America was.

You know, that was that was the basic movement.

And Jack Kerouac was a huge part of it with On the Road, which is extremely famous, you know.

Yeah.

And what's interesting is he influenced a lot of these people, like Ken Kessie, who wrote One Flew the Cuckoo's Nest.

Alan Ginsburg, the poet.

William Burroughs.

Yeah.

He gave the name to William Burroughs' probably most famous novel, Naked Lunch.

That was something that he came up with.

But when he wrote On the Road, he did spend all those years trying to get it published and editing it.

And in the meantime, everyone who was influenced by reading copies of it got their own stuff published.

So it ended up looking like Kerouac was copying off them, when in fact he was the influence for this whole generation.

Yes, because it only ended up being published in 1957, we should say.

So he proposed it in 1951.

The editor said, take it away and turn it into a proper book.

And so he then did type it out on normal pages.

but no one would take it.

And all the publishers said, We think this is kind of a work of genius, but no one's going to care about the subject matter.

And the subject matter is it's basically a big old road trip.

Uh, it's none of his books are novels, and I hate it when people refer to them as that because they're all completely true, yeah, to his own life.

They're his autobiography, basically.

And this was a bit of a exaggerated autobiographies, aren't they?

Yeah, I think.

So it's him traveling around with his mates, and they all put each other in each other's books, don't they?

Ginsburg does, and Burroughs does.

He also, incidentally, named Ginsburg's most famous book, Hal.

So he named the three most famous books of the Beat generation.

His real skill was naming books.

All these books that he did, which were semi-autobiographical and with all his mates in, the lawyers of his publishers made him change all the names for obvious reasons.

You know, there was lots of stuff happening in those books that they might object to.

But Kerouac's intention was to, towards the end of his life, he was going to get all of his old books and he was going to republish them all as one enormous scroll from start to finish but then change all the names back so that we got all the people's names

but then he died quite young i think he died really young he died in the late 60s but can i sorry can i just say that has been done now just to uh make sense of what i said earlier i think viking press in about 2011 released the original scroll which is with all the original names and it's with no paragraph breaks and written i've got it at home it's a beast of a book i haven't read it i mean just no way but it's and there you go there's the fan revealed i'm i i'm a fan of the counterculture i've not actually read Kerouac because he is difficult.

It's a difficult read.

Yeah, the stream of consciousness is harder.

Can I give you one more version of that meeting with Robert Giroux, who was one of his previous editors?

And then he'd written short stories and things like that.

He turns up at the office with the manuscript, with the scroll, throws it on the floor.

And this is according to Robert Giroux.

He was very excited.

This is Kerouac.

I think he was high.

Anyway, I bent down to look at the thing, and after a few moments, I looked up and said, well, Jack, this is going to have to be cut up into pages and edited and so on Jack just looked at me and his face darkened and he said there'll be no editing this book was dictated by the Holy Ghost

and the book then went to a different publisher

you met him on a dating site didn't you

yeah I think he was off his face quite a lot oh yeah he was on benzetrine when he did this oh really which is an amphetamine that a lot of people were on at the time it was like a nasal spray like a kind of pseudo-fred thing but then it made everyone gave lots of people lots of energy because it's basically amphetamines.

It's not very cool, though, is it?

It's not like

the jazz guy's like trying to find a new vein for the horse.

If it's a nasal spray, I do think that's an uncool administration for a mind-altering drug.

Yeah, I guess so.

But it was cool at the time.

Yeah.

And then it did go out of, you know.

And he went out of fashion within his own circle as well.

Like, that's one of the tragic things.

So he did die young.

I think he was 47 when he died.

And even his friends, his closest friends, like Alan Ginsburg, Ginsburg, didn't want to know him at that point.

He had turned from this amazingly magnetic character that basically defined this whole movement to someone who became very bitter, very angry.

He used to write some newspapers about Boy Scout badges changing.

He got quite right-winged in the end.

He was always quite racist.

But those letters to the newspapers, they were so long, they couldn't get in.

They were all on little scrolls.

It's so sad.

You know, the original, On the Road, a dog ate part of his homework.

Yes.

Yeah, genuinely.

It was auctioned some years ago, and the condition notes noted that the final 25 pages or equivalent of had been chewed and torn away by a dog belonging to Kerouak's friend in April or May 1951.

But the thing is that no one who read it ever got up to the last 25 pages, so no one ever noticed.

On the Road was published in 1957, was a huge hit, and immediately he couldn't handle it.

He just like, he sort of had a breakdown.

His publisher said he ended up like lying on the floor staring at the ceiling, not knowing what to do, became terrible alcoholic.

I think we said that he went to a lookout tower, didn't he?

Was that after that as well?

Yes, that's right.

He kind of just lived on his own for months and months in the middle of the forest looking for fires.

Did he find any?

No, he didn't, but apparently he did leave behind him a column of feces about the height and size of a baby.

What an upsetting simile point for your column of feces.

There's so much else you could compare it to.

Like a melon or a melon?

Melons are smaller than babies.

How big are your melons?

Excuse me.

How small are your babies?

Alan, we're not getting into motorboating again.

Do you know the only reason he became so famous and it all ruined him anyway?

It was because of one review he got in the New York Times.

Oh, yeah.

So if the review had not been printed, he would have probably stayed small time.

He was small time before it came out, right?

But the main reviewer, a guy called Orville Prescott, hated him, hated his stuff, but he was away on holiday.

And so there was a different review who just got drafted in for holiday cover called Gilbert Milstein.

And he gave it the biggest smash hit review the New York Times had ever given anything.

He said, its publication is a historic occasion.

The writing is of a beauty almost breathtaking.

And this gave the book absolute rocket fuel.

It made it a huge success.

Prescott, who was the main guy in charge of reviewing, was so angry about this, he almost didn't allow it to go in.

And then he fired Gilbert Milstein.

He was never allowed again to write for the New York Times

because he loved this stream of consciousness, hard-to-read, beat generation thing.

Yeah.

Wow.

Love it or you hate it.

Well, listen, guys, I can hear the audience at home.

I can hear at least my mum screaming.

Tell us about the collection that Jim Ursi had.

Ah, yes.

In which

scrollers,

who this guy is.

So

he was the owner of the Colts, the football team in America, and he bought up the scroll.

And it's part of this big traveling collection that he has.

So he has the big book, the original Alcoholics Anonymous book, the first manuscript that was ever written.

Oh, I thought you went with everyone's names.

It's Alcoholics Not Anonymous.

That's the compromise book.

Just one guy is allowed to know who you are.

No, this was the original book that William or Bill W.

Wilson had written.

Actually, wasn't that the Holy Ghost who gave him that as well?

It was, you're right.

You're right.

It was.

It was a huge episode for the Holy Ghost this one.

He has two tickets from the performance of Our American Cousin for Ford's Theatre, the night that Lincoln was assassinated.

He's got a rocking chair that was used by JFK inside the White House.

I should just say he did die this year.

He did keep saying he has.

Sorry, he did.

He died just over a month ago.

Well, he'll be getting a chance to chat to the Holy Ghost, won't he?

That's exciting.

He has the greatest collection of guitars in the world.

Or he had, I should say, again.

It was called that in Guitar Magazine in 2021.

And every famous guitarist you can name, he has.

Eric Lapton.

George Harrison.

Jimmy Bidge.

Django Reinhart.

Oh,

fuck that.

I just don't think you've written them all down.

No, I haven't.

I bet he does.

I think Betty does.

I love Django.

Yeah, I'm sure he does because I was really hoping that you would just name any of these 20 names that I have on my list.

Give us one or two.

Yeah, I mean, Elvis, George Harrison, John Lennon, Paul McCartney, Jerry Garcia, Prince Let's Paul, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Kurt Cobain.

He has Kurt Cobain's nevermind guitar.

It's like one of the most iconic grunge guitars.

It's the guitar he brings out at a party and they say, oh, for fuck's sake, nevermind, never mind.

Okay, that's it.

That is all of our facts.

Thank you so much for listening.

If you'd like to get in contact with any of us about the things that we have said over the course of this podcast, we can all be found on our various social media accounts.

I'm on Instagram under at Schreiberland.

Andy?

I'm on Instagram at Andrew Hunter M.

And James?

I'm on TikTok, no such thing as James Harkin.

And if you want to get to us as a group, Anna, we are on Instagram at no such thing as a fish or on Twitter at no such thing or email podcast qi.com.

That's right, or you can go to our website, no such thingasafish.com.

We have all our previous episodes up there.

You can check out things like Club Fish, which is our secret members' club.

Do join that, get bonus episodes, ad-free content, all that stuff.

And we're going to be doing a couple of live gigs in September at the London Podcast Festival.

Tickets are available for that now.

Go check it out.

Otherwise, just come back here next week.

We'll have another episode waiting for you.

We'll see you then.

Goodbye.