Naomi Osaka: “I Used to Think Losing Meant My Life Was Over” Sharing Her Truth of Navigating Shame, Public Pressure & How She Found REAL Self-Worth

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Speaker 1 What I was dealing with at the time, feeling ashamed, going against everything an athlete stood for.

Speaker 1 After I pulled out of the French Open, I flew back home to LA and just stayed in my house because I didn't want to see the outside world.

Speaker 1 Ranked as number one in the world in women's singles. A four-time Grand Slam tennis champ, Mayo Meo Saka.

Speaker 6 Your dad wanted to train you because he was reading about Richard Williams and what he'd done with the Williams sisters. How aware were you of that when you were growing up?

Speaker 1 Me and my sister and my dad on a tennis court at least eight hours during the day.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 1 I began to think to myself, like, it would be very weird if I didn't make it.

Speaker 6 Your vulnerable sharing of your mental health journey. What does it feel like looking back on that?

Speaker 1 Honestly, I'm a little bit embarrassed on how I went about it.

Speaker 6 What was the process like going from giving birth to then getting back on the court?

Speaker 1 Maybe seven to ten days. I started training again.

Speaker 6 Wow.

Speaker 1 My whole identity as I knew it was being a tennis player. I would value what my value was as a person on whether I won or lost.

Speaker 6 What was the feeling like when you won your first Grand Slam?

Speaker 1 When I was growing up I had dreams of playing Serena and in my first Grand Slam final. It felt like a dream came true.
I was just reading comments of people saying that I didn't deserve to win.

Speaker 6 The number one health and wellness podcast. Jay Shetty.
Jay Shetty. The one, the only Jay Shetty.

Speaker 6 Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the place you come to become happier, healthier, and more healed.

Speaker 6 Today's guest is someone that I've been dying to talk to for quite a few years now, ever since she opened up about her own mental health journey.

Speaker 6 Today's guest is Naomi Osaka, a four-time Grand Slam champion and was the first Asian to hold the world number one ranking for 21 weeks.

Speaker 6 Beyond tennis, she's a global advocate for mental health, social justice, and was named one of time's 100 most influential people twice and now has her production company, Hanakuma, along with her skincare line, Kinlo.

Speaker 6 Please welcome to the show, Naomi Osaka. Naomi, it's wonderful to have you here.

Speaker 1 Thank you. It's nice to be here.

Speaker 6 I really meant it. I've been wanting to talk to you for so long.
I thought

Speaker 3 your

Speaker 6 open sharing and vulnerable sharing of your mental health journey was so brave and courageous. What does it feel like looking back on that three years now?

Speaker 1 Honestly, I'm a little bit embarrassed on how I went about it, but I'm really glad that I did open up.

Speaker 1 It created a pathway for more discussions to be had and I also feel like athletes were seen as more than just, I guess, stone cold in a way.

Speaker 6 Yeah, why embarrassed there now?

Speaker 1 I don't know. Like, I just,

Speaker 1 since I go on things, like, I go about things on a whim a little bit, I sometimes make decisions without fully thinking them through all the way because it's such an emotional thing.

Speaker 1 And when I was in that moment, like, I was living it and I think everyone could see that I was clearly living it.

Speaker 1 But I feel like maybe I could have been a little bit better with my words or how I presented myself.

Speaker 6 Well, I think it came across really beautifully. And for whatever it's worth, I felt that it really gave so many more athletes the permission to also open up, to also share how they were feeling.

Speaker 6 And you're so right. I think it humanized a lot of athletes that are often just seen as these high-performing beings.
And then you don't realize that they have a conversation in their mind.

Speaker 6 You just said there and you were saying earlier that sometimes you do things on a whim or sometimes you wing it. Where does that come from? Is that from your childhood? Did that start early?

Speaker 1 Maybe it's a personality thing, but

Speaker 1 people don't know.

Speaker 1 I'm very impulsive actually.

Speaker 1 And I'm just very quick to like want to get things done. So yeah, I do think it's a childhood trait and

Speaker 1 maybe my mom can tell me more stories about that.

Speaker 1 I heard her tell a story about how when we were younger, me and my sister, she took us to a fountain and all of a sudden I just jumped in the fountain.

Speaker 1 So there's probably a bunch more stories like that that she could tell me.

Speaker 6 Yeah. And where has that trait kind of got you in trouble and when has it actually been a really helpful trait?

Speaker 1 The moments that's gotten me in trouble, people know about those moments.

Speaker 1 But I think in times that it's really helped, I feel it's helped a lot on the tennis court just because I often do put a little bit of pressure on myself to be, I guess, flashy in a way.

Speaker 1 Like I want to make it entertaining for the people that watch. And sometimes in my mind, I have this image of Mofis.
He's like one of my favorite tennis players.

Speaker 1 And I think, you know, maybe I should do something like that. Some of those shots work and some of them don't, but I think it's fun to try regardless.

Speaker 6 Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 6 It's so interesting hearing about athletes speaking about being impulsive and being, you know, because I feel like so much of the sport us as outsiders looks so strategic and intentional and focused how do you balance that creativity and impulsiveness with more focus and planning and intentionality it's something that I've just learned throughout playing with sport I've been playing since I was three so it's kind of ingrained in me and I feel like every tennis player has their own I guess signature or blueprint or formula that they just grew up with and

Speaker 1 some people you see it a lot Like,

Speaker 1 you can kind of tell that they're the creative people, like onsteber.

Speaker 1 And then, some other people, you can just tell that they're focused on, you know, the plays that will lead them to victory. So, I find myself being kind of a half and half person.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 6 You moved from Japan to America when you were four years old. Three.
Three. Okay.
What, if anything, do you remember from that time?

Speaker 1 I remember my sister kicking me in the head.

Speaker 3 Really?

Speaker 6 Wow, that's impressive.

Speaker 1 And I also remember going to the park a lot.

Speaker 1 I don't know if you're familiar with Japanese food, but my mom used to get a snikuman. So they're like steamed buns.
And yeah, just

Speaker 1 having a fun time in Japan as a kid.

Speaker 6 And then what was it like coming to America at that time and settling in? Does that feel like a natural transition or were there certain learnings that you had to have?

Speaker 1 From my memories, like it was pretty easy. I don't think I was too attached to Japan.
I wasn't too thrilled to be in America either, but it's just the life that I had.

Speaker 1 I heard that my sister had a tougher time because she was older and she only spoke Japanese.

Speaker 1 So at school, this is a funny story, which is kind of makes me a little mad now, but it's just something that happened. Apparently, me and my sister, we only spoke Japanese.

Speaker 1 And my teacher told my mom to stop speaking to us in Japanese. So that's kind of how I forgot most of it.

Speaker 6 So you don't speak Japanese anymore?

Speaker 1 I do, but like to people I'm comfortable with. Right.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Right.

Speaker 6 So wait, your teacher told your mom not to talk to you and your sister in Japanese so that you'd get more comfortable with English. And why does that make you mad now?

Speaker 1 I feel like... being bilingual is such a good trait.
And also we went to English school, like American, so they spoke English there anyway.

Speaker 1 So we would have eventually gotten to learn how to speak English. Yeah.

Speaker 6 And language is such a beautiful way to preserve culture. Yeah.
And it preserves an intimacy as well. Like you said, that people you're close to, you'll still speak in Japanese.

Speaker 6 And I feel like there's an intimacy when you're speaking your own language with someone, right?

Speaker 1 Yeah, I also feel like there's a way to convey things that sometimes I can't convey it in English, so I have to say it in Japanese and there's like a fluctuation or something like that that it can't be translated.

Speaker 6 Yeah, I agree with that. I feel like that way about Hindi.
So Hindi is obviously the national language of India.

Speaker 6 And I feel like there are so many beautiful, poetic words in Hindi that if I try and say them in English, they just sound basic. Yeah.
But in Hindi, they're really spectacular.

Speaker 6 So, no, I can relate to that. Your dad, at least from what I read, your dad.
wanted to train you because he was reading about Richard Williams and what he'd done with the Williams sisters.

Speaker 6 And I think at one point he even said that I had a blueprint, I knew what I needed to do, and I know I had to follow it. What was it like living that blueprint and with your dad?

Speaker 6 How aware were you of that when you were growing up?

Speaker 1 I heard of that story later on also.

Speaker 1 But yeah, I think living in that blueprint was something that I just grew used to.

Speaker 1 It was kind of just me and my sister and my dad on a tennis court for like at least eight hours during the day. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So it was, it was kind of one of those things where I began to think to myself, like, it would be very weird if I didn't make it and I had no choice to because this was, you know, this was my life and

Speaker 1 I was just so dedicated towards it.

Speaker 3 But

Speaker 1 I find it really funny that he said that there is an exact blueprint.

Speaker 6 Have you ever asked him about any questions about that time when he was training you for eight hours a day and what was going through his mind and what were his emotions?

Speaker 1 My My dad's kind of a stoic guy, so he doesn't really talk as often, and when he does, it's like to randomly crack a joke.

Speaker 1 The family all had a dream and we all were trying our best to achieve it and it's kind of interesting to look back on it because it wasn't that long ago.

Speaker 6 Did you ever watch King Richard with your family?

Speaker 1 I watched it by myself on the plane and I thought it was really fascinating because it did feel a little familiar in some parts

Speaker 1 And I think it's just like the goal of the whole family just trying their best. And it was really touching for me.

Speaker 6 Was it something that really brought you all closer together when you were young?

Speaker 1 Yeah, I think, you know, but my family wasn't that big. It was just me and my sister and my mom and my dad.
And growing up, we lived in New York. So I was around my grandma and my cousins at the time.

Speaker 1 But then we moved to Florida when I was like eight or so.

Speaker 1 And then we didn't have any family members. I would definitely say we were extremely close.

Speaker 6 Apart from your amazing fashion, how did Japanese culture and Haitian culture, how has it influenced and inspired you from a mindset perspective or even from a lifestyle perspective?

Speaker 6 What are the parts of it that still live and breathe in your life today?

Speaker 1 It's interesting to be asked questions like that because I feel like

Speaker 1 it's so hard to explain.

Speaker 1 But I think one of the biggest things that people may not know about Haiti or Haitian culture, I don't even know if it's a culture or just everyone's personality is like that, but they'll give even though they have nothing to give.

Speaker 1 I don't want to say it's one of my favorite parts, but it's one of the most touching parts. Whenever I go to Haiti, like everyone's just so excited to interact and

Speaker 1 be as hospitable as possible and

Speaker 1 just show their love and appreciation for people coming to Haiti and people that love Haiti. So I try to incorporate that in my own way,

Speaker 1 in my own personality.

Speaker 1 And then of course for the Japanese side, I think this one's going to be a little funny, but I think Japan's very like

Speaker 1 strict. Not strict, but like very prompt.
And I think one of the funniest things was that

Speaker 1 one of my trainers said that, you know, it's funny that you go to different countries and the bus time is like 10 and the bus can leave at 10.03. But in Japan, when it's at 10 it leaves at 10.

Speaker 3 So

Speaker 1 yeah, trying to be very

Speaker 1 on task.

Speaker 6 Yeah, no, I love learning about different cultures or as you said communities traits. And I mean that what you just said about giving even when you don't have something to give.

Speaker 6 I mean, that's really powerful and really beautiful. And

Speaker 6 it's tough as well. It's hard as well when someone's actually having to go through that.
And that generosity, it's so interesting, isn't it?

Speaker 6 Like I always think we think when i have more then i'll give more

Speaker 6 and actually it's almost like no if i can give what i have today then then i'll continue to give and i remember being exposed to that culture in india as well and i think asian and south asian places definitely i places i visited have some of that culture and and the orderly and promptness and the discipline definitely make sense so you've got that perfect yin and yang of being impulsive and disciplined what's the most disciplined thing you do every day right now This is going to sound a little unhinged.

Speaker 1 Not eating rice, which is really difficult for me.

Speaker 6 Explain.

Speaker 1 I just feel like as a Asian and Caribbean person, like rice is such a staple in both foods and both cultures.

Speaker 1 But I'm trying to be really strict with myself and really disciplined.

Speaker 1 Not eating any rice is definitely the most disciplined thing that I have to do right now.

Speaker 6 I love that. And is rice usually like a daily,

Speaker 6 like, usually like a daily staple?

Speaker 1 Yeah, you know, like a couple spoonfuls here and there.

Speaker 6 Yeah. So now no rice.
How long has it been?

Speaker 1 It's honestly been a couple of weeks. So I'm hoping to keep this up until Australia.

Speaker 6 That's amazing.

Speaker 6 That's awesome. I know what that feels like when you're like trying to swear off.
My big thing, sugar.

Speaker 6 I'm just like constantly trying to stare off sugar and it's so hard because I've been addicted to sugar in the past.

Speaker 1 Oh, so you have a sweet tooth?

Speaker 6 I have a big sweet tooth. Like you put anything with chocolate in front of me and it will be devoured.
It's like my favorite thing in the world.

Speaker 6 But I've been building a healthier relationship with sugar. It's been pretty tough, but I've got there as well.
And what about the other side?

Speaker 6 What's something that you kind of get spontaneously the urge to do right now? What are some of the more impulsive things you end up doing right now?

Speaker 1 One of my favorite things to do is like go for a drive at nighttime. Sometimes when I do that, people like to race.
So sometimes I may or may not potentially end up racing them as well.

Speaker 3 That's brilliant.

Speaker 1 I don't know. It's kind of one of my guilty pleasures because I feel like you, you get to see a crowd of people that you don't typically see, especially on the LA highways.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I would say that's probably one of the last impulsive things I've done.

Speaker 6 That is, that is brilliant. I'm so glad I asked the question.
Do you have a really cool car as well?

Speaker 3 Potentially.

Speaker 6 I love that. I'm the person who avoids the race.
So I used to be like that in my teenagers. I loved it.

Speaker 6 If someone wanted to race me, and it's so funny because I have a much faster car today than I did when I was a teenager. But I remember when I was a teenager, I would race anyone.

Speaker 6 Even if I was driving my little Vauxhall Corsa, which is like, if I showed you a picture of the car later on, you'd laugh. It's like this really old model.
I'd race anyone.

Speaker 6 I don't care what they were driving. Now I avoid the race.
Do you do you usually win?

Speaker 1 I tell myself I have no choice.

Speaker 1 So honestly, though, I do feel you on like avoiding the race now because I think as I've gotten older, I've become a lot more safe.

Speaker 1 Like for example, when I was young, turbulence on airplanes used to excite me. I used to think of them as like free roller coaster rides.

Speaker 1 But now I do get a little worried sometimes because I think of my daughter and all the things that I want to do with her when she grows up.

Speaker 1 So yeah, when people start driving past a certain level of crazy, then I'm like, okay, you got it.

Speaker 6 Do these people know that they're racing against naomi osaka or no you're like tinted windows they can't tell who they're racing my windows are very very tinted so they have no idea that they just got beat by they wouldn't be able to see me they would see the dust

Speaker 6 you're like you're like they're not even close i love that that's that's so funny it's it's amazing how there are there's certain things that we all need as an outlet and to be impulsive about and just kind of let go.

Speaker 6 And do you think that when you were working up up to win, you know, the first US Open that you did at like 20 years old, was your life very different then?

Speaker 6 Like, could you have impulse or was the preparation for that so strategic and focused and developed? What was that like?

Speaker 1 Every day kind of looked the exact same to the point where I could predict where I'm going to be at a certain minute.

Speaker 1 So in that regard, my life has definitely changed a lot. Preparation is pretty much the same.
The will to win is the same.

Speaker 1 And I would think the impulses are also the same. The outlets are just different.

Speaker 6 Oh, interesting. Yeah.

Speaker 6 How did you express your impulses at that time? How did they come through and how were they alive?

Speaker 1 I used to be

Speaker 1 chronically online.

Speaker 1 So I used to play a lot of video games.

Speaker 1 I used to read a lot of manga or fake online shops. So I would put things in my cart and just never buy them.
And I would say, yeah, I guess the impulse would be to like buy them.

Speaker 1 But yeah, I think, you know, now obviously I don't play games as much because I don't have that much time for it. But yeah.

Speaker 6 How does that work when you fill your cart up with stuff and then don't buy it? Like walk me through that.

Speaker 1 It's like...

Speaker 1 You go into a mall and you're window shopping. Yeah.

Speaker 3 So

Speaker 1 I find it funny sometimes because I like to go to stores that that have like vintage or like one-of-one items. And I get so mad when people buy what's in my cart.
Like, wow, how dare you?

Speaker 6 But you weren't going to buy it anyway.

Speaker 1 No, but it's nice to know it's there in case I do have an impulse. Yeah, I love that.

Speaker 6 What was the feeling like when you won your first Grand Slam at the US Open at such a young age? Like, what was that feeling like? I think I even have

Speaker 6 this picture. Like, when you see that, can you see that? Or is it squinting now?

Speaker 6 Yeah. What was that feeling like?

Speaker 1 Do you know?

Speaker 3 I think...

Speaker 1 When I was growing up, I had dreams of playing Serena in my first Grand Slam final, if even a Grand Slam final. So it felt like a dream came true.

Speaker 1 But at the same time, like all the circumstances surrounding that was not a dream come true. And it was, I don't know, like some people didn't think it was like a clean victory.

Speaker 1 And I felt like I had to constantly prove people wrong. And, you know, that situation was a little unfortunate.

Speaker 1 But I'm glad I won the Australian Open right after that. But in that moment, it was a very,

Speaker 1 very strange mixture of emotions.

Speaker 6 Yeah, it's so hard when

Speaker 6 what was it was happening recently, actually. I don't know if you follow soccer at all.
And I'm a big soccer fan.

Speaker 6 And Pep Guardiola, who's the manager of Manchester City, and he's probably one of the best managers of all time in the sport of soccer internationally. And he's on his worst run ever.

Speaker 6 So he's just lost seven games in a row. And he's never done that in his entire career.
In his whole career, he's never lost more than, I think, two games in a row. No, wow.

Speaker 6 This is the first time his team, he's a manager, has lost seven games in a row.

Speaker 6 And the opposition on the weekend, literally just this weekend that just went by, they were shouting, you're going to get sacked in the morning.

Speaker 6 And so, you know, and he was reacting to that. He's, he's truly like, he's in the top two discussion of the best coaches in soccer of all time.
And he was receiving that treatment.

Speaker 6 And it's really interesting because you watch even someone like, again, I'm using soccer examples because that's a sport I know well.

Speaker 6 But I mean, even Novak, who, you know, is a good friend, he's been on the show, like the amount of stress that he receives from the fans and the audience as well, like he hasn't had the easiest road.

Speaker 6 What did you turn to in that moment? Because you've just won something, but there's all that feeling. How do you kind of reconcile that?

Speaker 6 And now when you're looking back, how have you kind of processed that?

Speaker 1 You know, it's funny is if you asked me this like three years ago, I definitely would have started crying.

Speaker 3 Oh, wow.

Speaker 1 For a very long time, I didn't process it because I didn't want to.

Speaker 1 Just I'm the type of person that I'll keep my head down and just keep working hard. And, you know, hopefully I'll get to where I want to be.

Speaker 1 But for that being the first Grand Slam and that kind of being the introduction into like

Speaker 1 the world for non-tennis fans, it was definitely really difficult for me. And I think no amount of media training could have

Speaker 1 processed me for that.

Speaker 6 Why would you have cried three years ago?

Speaker 1 I just have this very vivid memory of winning, going back to my hotel. And the U.S.
Open is special because

Speaker 1 you kind of get back to your hotel if you have a night match at like 1 a.m. or something like that.
It's crazy.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah, doing treatment because I was going to go play a tournament in Tokyo right after that.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 I was just reading comments of people saying that I

Speaker 1 didn't deserve to win or like

Speaker 1 I didn't win fairly.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 I don't know, it just, it just really sucked. Yeah.

Speaker 6 Yeah, no, that's really fair. I mean, I don't think that would ever be a good feeling.
It's like the worst. Did you speak to Serena after that as well?

Speaker 1 Yeah, she was actually really kind and sent me a message.

Speaker 1 And I sent her a message back, but I always got so starstruck by her. Like, I wrote my third grade report on her.

Speaker 3 Wow.

Speaker 1 I just remember getting the message and being like, no way.

Speaker 1 And then re sending a response and immediately putting it on mute because I just couldn't handle.

Speaker 6 What was the report about?

Speaker 1 I think the school was asking, like, who's your role model and why is the person your role model and stuff like that.

Speaker 6 What did you write? Do you remember?

Speaker 1 I, I mean, I think I wrote like my role model, Serena, and then I had like cut out like a little printed photo of her because she's the greatest tennis player of all time.

Speaker 1 And, you know, she's like an amazing role model figure for me and stuff like that.

Speaker 6 I love that. And then did you guys, have you guys met since then and spoken since then as well?

Speaker 1 We've met since then. We've also played since then.

Speaker 6 What was that like, playing her again and then meeting her again after that?

Speaker 1 I think I've played her like

Speaker 1 two or three times after that. And the most recent time was like

Speaker 1 the second Australian Open that I won. But prior to the Australian Open, we were having like the COVID lockdown in Australia.
So I was a part of the same group she was, and her daughter was there. And

Speaker 1 I was still super starstruck. I think I'll always be starstruck by her, but she asked me if I could take a photo with her daughter.
And I felt so honored.

Speaker 3 I was like, wow, of course I will.

Speaker 6 That's awesome. Wow, what a special feeling.
I love that. For your hero to then be asking you to take a picture with their daughter, that's pretty epic.

Speaker 6 How does that feel to

Speaker 6 young Naomi?

Speaker 1 Very unbelievable, but also now after having my daughter, I realize how important it is to have good role models. And I'm, I don't know, I'm glad that I potentially am one to somebody.

Speaker 6 Yeah,

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I think it's the best feeling in the world when your heroes live up to the versions of them you had in your minds.

Speaker 6 I feel like I've been so fortunate to meet so many of my heroes and, you know, they've, they've lived up to it. And I feel like I'm always excited to meet my heroes now.

Speaker 6 I know that old cliche of never meet your heroes.

Speaker 6 I'm not sure. I think meeting some of them has been one of the best experiences, some of the best experiences in my life, at least.
Sounds like yours too.

Speaker 6 How's your life changed for you from the inside becoming a mother?

Speaker 6 And, you know, like you said, just living this disciplined, focused, everyday kind of looks like the same, building up to win, you know, four grand slams and now, you know, living a very different life.

Speaker 6 I'm guessing every day is definitely not the same. Like, what's changed for you? How's that affected your identity and even self-perception?

Speaker 1 Becoming a mother has definitely changed my life a lot.

Speaker 1 Internally, I feel I've become a lot more patient and also in a weird way, more carefree.

Speaker 1 I think there's a lot of things that used to bother me in the past or I used to hold on to and now I just kind of see them as, I don't know, pointless.

Speaker 1 Maybe pointless is a little bit too big of a word, but

Speaker 3 like what?

Speaker 1 You always put me on the spot, huh?

Speaker 6 You said you like winging it, so I'm giving you lots of... Every time I ask you one of these questions, you give an amazing answer.
So I'm like,

Speaker 3 Yeah, just trying to play tennis with you right now.

Speaker 6 The harder shot I give you, the better you give it back.

Speaker 1 So I think you won this rally.

Speaker 6 I'll take that. I'll take it.

Speaker 1 One of the biggest things for me was that my whole identity as I knew it was being a tennis player. So I would, I guess, value my

Speaker 1 life or what my value was as a person on whether I won or lost. And now,

Speaker 1 I don't know, I'm not saying being a mother is my entire being, but I see that there's so much more to life and there's so much that I'm able to, I guess, give to another person in regards to how they feel.

Speaker 1 Like my daughter, she smiles so much when I'm around her and it just makes my day. So I no longer really feel like, you know, my life is over if I lose a tennis match or something like that.

Speaker 6 It's actually quite profound to hear that because I can imagine that when you work that hard at something and you become as good as you are at that thing,

Speaker 6 it becomes really natural for you to put all your self-worth and all your self-esteem into it.

Speaker 6 And then now your whole life revolves around it, the way people speak to you, the way people introduce you, the way, you know, every conversation becomes about that.

Speaker 6 How have you detached from like being ranked number one and then being like, well, now my life is moving. Like, has that been a part of that?

Speaker 6 How do you, how do you detach and disconnect from that kind of strong identity and how it was made I think it's been a series of learning events

Speaker 1 and I can't necessarily name to you what happened because in some ways I feel like I just woke up one day and this clicked or I just woke up another day and another thought clicked I feel like I've been really fortunate to have

Speaker 1 I guess, people that care about me and they've kind of reinforced the idea that, you know, this isn't the like main factor of your life yes this has helped you like be in positions like sitting here right now talking to you but um it's not your entire self-worth yeah i think that's such a powerful message and i hope everyone hears that you know loud and clear i think it's so easy you're reminding me of an episode we did with kevin hart and kevin was talking about how At one point, he just thought he was like unstoppable and unbeatable.

Speaker 6 And it led to him making so many bad decisions. And he was talking about how the best thing he did was to

Speaker 6 not in these words, but paraphrasing, like embracing his own insignificance, like recognizing that one day

Speaker 6 he wouldn't be who he is and that that would be okay too.

Speaker 6 And it's, it's so interesting because I feel like we're all trying to get to that place, that we're all trying to get to this place of like, I'm already enough and I'm okay.

Speaker 6 And you, I feel like writing and journaling is such a a big part of who you are. Like, even hearing about your school report and then the post you put up like three days ago.

Speaker 6 And when I read that, I just thought, wow, you're so reflective. You're so thoughtful.
Like, is that a habit that you've had?

Speaker 6 Obviously, that was something you shared publicly, but just that habit of being able to explain your thoughts and connect them in that way. Is that something you do often?

Speaker 6 Is that a habit you've built over time?

Speaker 1 I think it started

Speaker 1 when I was an early teenager, maybe.

Speaker 1 And ironically, I used to hate writing because I remember my English teachers kind of failing me almost because my grammar was always incorrect.

Speaker 1 So, I don't know, I used to try to avoid things that I knew I wasn't good at and writing was one of them.

Speaker 1 But I think one day I wanted to get my words out, and I'm not honestly not the greatest speaker.

Speaker 1 I kind of title myself that. So, I wanted to get my words out in the way that I wanted to convey myself and writing was the easiest tool for that.
So

Speaker 1 it just kind of built up over the years.

Speaker 6 Do you write daily? Is journaling like a daily practice?

Speaker 1 Yeah, I try to write daily. I try to write my thoughts, what I feel or what I'm grateful for, what I've learned this day.

Speaker 6 Wow. Did you do you journal in the morning or the evening? So have you already journaled today?

Speaker 1 It kind of changes, like depending on my mood, depending if I'm running out the door and I'm late for practice.

Speaker 6 Was what you shared three days ago part of your journaling practice and then how do you decide when you write something whether to share it publicly or whether to hold it in for yourself?

Speaker 1 So what I wrote three days ago was like a little snippet of a book that I'm writing that I don't even know if I am doing a disservice to books by calling it a book but I would say that it's

Speaker 1 it's kind of my ramblings.

Speaker 1 I tend to think things through in my own head a lot and it's definitely much clearer for me if I write it down and see it and I don't know I think the way I decide to post it publicly or share it publicly is if I feel internally it would help someone

Speaker 6 you should definitely write that book it definitely

Speaker 6 I found it to be very introspective and but at the same time

Speaker 6 when you sometimes read someone's journal entry it only makes sense to them

Speaker 6 but it made sense to me too.

Speaker 6 And so I think being able to relate to it in that way is what made it a dialogue. Like I felt like I was invited into the conversation and invited into what you were trying to share.

Speaker 6 And I think the first line of what you said was.

Speaker 1 You know, the cringe is coming.

Speaker 6 There's no cringe.

Speaker 6 So you said,

Speaker 6 growing up, I never really liked myself. And then you went on to say, while that statement is bold, I also wouldn't say I disliked myself either.
And I found that really interesting.

Speaker 6 I want to hear your thoughts on that because I never thought my life was easy, but I never thought my life was hard. I just knew it was my life.
That's how I've always felt growing up.

Speaker 6 So when you said that, that's what I thought of. Why were you intrigued in sharing that? And what were you reflecting on there?

Speaker 1 Honestly, I was kind of reflecting on what you just said. Like growing up,

Speaker 1 we would be constantly on the tennis court and I would watch other kids go to summer vacation or not have to shovel the snow off the court to hit tennis balls. And I would always think, dang, like,

Speaker 1 I kind of want to be someone else but at the same time like I love my mom I love my dad I love my sister I kind of like my life you know um

Speaker 1 I think it's a really weird like thought process and I think especially growing up and

Speaker 1 seeing tabloids seeing pop singers thinking wow like their life must be so perfect I'd rather prefer to be them than to be me right now and then eventually getting to the point where you like mature and you grow up and you're so grateful for the life that you have.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 it was kind of accumulation of years.

Speaker 6 Yeah. Can you sing?

Speaker 1 If we're doing karaoke and it has to be a very specific song.

Speaker 6 Well, what's your karaoke song?

Speaker 1 I really love Bohemian Rhapsody.

Speaker 3 Oh, wow. Okay.

Speaker 6 That's not an easy one.

Speaker 6 Okay, we're going to have to go karaoke one time. So I can hear that.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 1 Only in Tokyo, though.

Speaker 6 Only in Tokyo? What are the karaoke places like in Tokyo?

Speaker 1 I think they're really fun. Like,

Speaker 1 some people take it very seriously. So I've seen videos online of people being in there for hours just practicing their vocal training.

Speaker 6 You need a karaoke party to hear this.

Speaker 6 I feel like I'm mentally scarred from going to karaoke because I worked at a company after... I worked at a company in

Speaker 6 2013. And as part of the training, we went to Chicago and we went to a karaoke bar.
So there's a bunch of Brits in Chicago at this karaoke bar. And all the girls were doing karaoke.

Speaker 6 The guys were kind of trying to act cool. I can't sing to save my life and none of my friends could either.
So we were trying not to, you know, get too involved.

Speaker 6 And then one of our friends grew up, shout out to Ollie, who I'm not friendly, I'm not in touch with him anymore.

Speaker 6 But anyway, this guy called Ollie from work turns up and he decides to sing Hound Dog, Elvis. And he's like dancing with the waitress.
He's like pulling the chair up. He's like doing all this stuff.

Speaker 6 And all of the boys with Scarred were like, we can never go and do karaoke ever again because he was so good.

Speaker 6 Shout out, Ollie, if you're listening. Wherever you are, you are amazing at karaoke.

Speaker 6 What I find so interesting about that reflection, that's where it came from. We were talking about your post,

Speaker 6 is

Speaker 6 just the way, there was one thing that you said. I want to pick another thing that really, that really stood out to me.

Speaker 6 In my mind, everyone was on a racetrack and I had an immense fear of being lapped or falling behind. And then you say, strangely enough, there are still moments today where I feel like I'm behind.

Speaker 6 That thought might never truly go away, even though I know how absurd it is. Have you made peace with the idea that you don't think that thought will ever go away?

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 3 How did you do that?

Speaker 1 I don't know. It used to bother me a lot.
Like, I always used to compare myself to people.

Speaker 1 And I think, especially being a tennis player, you count titles, you count wins, and you kind of size yourself up against other people your age or in your division.

Speaker 1 And I'd always feel like constantly on this race of like

Speaker 1 who's better, who's going to be better, who's not doing as well. And that's kind of transferred, I guess, onto me as a person.

Speaker 1 It's definitely gotten a lot better,

Speaker 1 but I feel like for me, it's kind of on the same

Speaker 1 line as being very competitive. I'm a very competitive person, so I don't think I'll ever truly

Speaker 1 not try to size myself up against other people.

Speaker 6 Yeah, it's that weird balance, isn't it? It's like, how do you stay competitive and also be content?

Speaker 6 Because you don't want to be lost being so competitive that your competitiveness becomes constant comparison.

Speaker 6 And we always hear the old cliche of, well, compete against your old self. Do you find that to be true now that you're playing tennis again after being a mom?

Speaker 6 Like, is that something you're having to do? Or do you disagree and you actually think it is still about being competitive on the court?

Speaker 1 You know, what's funny is I think I spent most of this year chasing my old self or my former shadow. And I don't necessarily think that's the way to go.

Speaker 1 I think, you know, you were who you were and now you're a more beautiful, more mature version of that. And it would kind of be doing your own self a disservice to constantly compare.
And

Speaker 1 I don't know, I think there's beauty in stepping into the present and looking towards the future. So I no longer compare myself to my old version.
And I

Speaker 1 don't know. I try to find myself more excited for what I could be.

Speaker 6 What does that look like sometimes when you kind of get into that? What's pulling you? What vision comes to mind?

Speaker 1 I think the vision that comes to mind isn't necessarily like winning as many trophies as I can, which that would be great and I'm hopeful that that will happen in the future but I guess being happy to learn more to meet new people to

Speaker 1 learn from them

Speaker 1 and just learn more about myself throughout those journeys I find that as a tennis player I'm quite stubborn so it's very hard for me to take advice from someone that I don't trust and in actuality like talking to people I kind of learn new things or learn new tips and tricks.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 6 What do you wish you knew about motherhood before you became a mother?

Speaker 1 You know,

Speaker 1 it's funny. I don't think there's really anything that can prepare you for being a mom.
Like, I read so many books and nothing really took me by surprise because I read so many books.

Speaker 6 Any good ones you recommend or any advice that really stood true?

Speaker 1 So something you wish to know. I wish to know that

Speaker 1 after a certain age, the baby will just poo in the tub and you're just going to have to accept it.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 my daughter, I remember there was one night she did a number two in the tub and she looked at me, she screamed, she said, yucky, and she walked away from it while like expecting me to pick it up.

Speaker 1 And I was like, okay, I guess that's fine. Like, we're just going to clean this up and restart the bat.
So yeah, I guess that's something I wish I knew. And then what what was the other question?

Speaker 6 No, no, no. I was saying if there was a book or something, an advice from a book that stood true and that really helped.

Speaker 1 Before you give birth, you could have like a birthing class. So I did that.

Speaker 1 And while I was in labor, I did absolutely none of those tips and tricks. So

Speaker 1 yeah, I feel like also with motherhood or with pregnancy, everyone's journey is so different.

Speaker 6 What was the process like going from giving birth to then getting back on the court? Even back to training, not even a game, but like to get back to training. What did that look like for you?

Speaker 1 It was really difficult

Speaker 1 just because

Speaker 1 for me with my daughter while I was pregnant, I was constantly sick. And the only way I could alleviate that is through like eating stuff to like settle the stomach pain.

Speaker 1 So I ended up gaining a lot of weight.

Speaker 1 So I really needed to burn that off. And I'm the type of person that I'll train during pregnancy, even though people have half and half opinions on that.

Speaker 1 So I ended up training,

Speaker 1 I would say, almost up until she was born. And then immediately after, like maybe seven to ten days, I started training again.

Speaker 6 Wow.

Speaker 1 And I know that caused a little bit of a stir online.

Speaker 1 But I don't know.

Speaker 1 I think, you know, my body's used to training because I've done that since I was super young and I wouldn't recommend it to I guess people that don't work out often but what was the kind of stir online it was just people saying that I need to heal more and stuff like that but actually like after I gave birth I remember the nurse asking me if I needed like a wheelchair to the bathroom and I had to convince her that I was fine and I could walk around by myself and stuff like that.

Speaker 1 So I just feel like bodies are very different.

Speaker 6 Yeah, it's it's so interesting how we still feel we can tell people what to do and when it's right for us to know what's right for them and and this kind of view of like, oh, well, I know what's best for you right now without living and walking in your shoes.

Speaker 6 You've you've experienced a lot of that like kind of like snapback culture and that feeling of like people

Speaker 6 kind of, you know, I've seen some interviews where I just felt. I felt embarrassed for the person asking you, but I felt worse for you that someone would even ask you questions like that.

Speaker 6 And you're awesome because you will just call them out and you're not worried about, like, you know, making it known.

Speaker 6 How have you got good at doing that?

Speaker 6 Because I think so many people would get scared or be shy or be, but, you know, you're okay with the fact of like, hey, I don't think that's a great question to ask, you know, which I respect.

Speaker 1 I don't know. I feel like my personality type is very honest.
Like, I pride myself on being very straightforward and honest. And that's kind of what's gotten me in trouble quite a couple of times.

Speaker 1 But I guess when we're doing a press conference, I see the people on the other side of the table as humans.

Speaker 1 and I would say that's also where the line started to get blurred for me a little bit is because I've been doing press conferences since I was like 16 17 and then obviously when I became to when I began to become a little bit more known more and more people entered those press conferences and I felt like they weren't treating me like I was a human.

Speaker 1 It was more like, let's ask her a question to get this like one-liner or this article grab. So that's kind of where I started to become a little bit fearful.

Speaker 1 I think people can see that I became a little bit more closed off.

Speaker 6 Yeah, which is natural.

Speaker 6 I mean, going back to what we were talking about with King Richard, I still remember that scene where like her dad has to stop the interviewer from asking her those questions because he's like, she's like 15 years old.

Speaker 6 And it's interesting. you know, the kind of questions that I think a lot of, like I said, athletes, managers, coaches get asked.

Speaker 6 And we've seen a lot of athletes in the past 12 months, I feel like really, there was a Yanis who came out and he, you know, I think they were like, oh, well, what is it going to be like when you don't win the championship this year?

Speaker 6 And he's like, well, do you get promoted every year? He's like, you don't. So, you know, we're not going to win the championship every year.
And that doesn't mean we've failed.

Speaker 6 How have you, we talked about you comparing yourself to others, but when people from the outside are comparing you to other people, how have you dealt with that?

Speaker 6 Like, how have you kind of processed that?

Speaker 1 It's easy to think about, like, for me, I can brush that off quite easily because I know it's my life and I'm living it.

Speaker 1 I know that the decisions that I make are going to be very different to other people's decisions. And I don't know, it's, it's, no one can ever predict someone else's path.

Speaker 1 I just realize like some people will understand that and some people won't. And it's not my job to convince people of that.

Speaker 1 But at the same time, I guess seeing comparisons is hard because you can wonder, I guess. I think for me, the most dangerous thing is the wonder.
I wonder if they're right. Or I wonder if, you know,

Speaker 1 I wonder how they're seeing things like that.

Speaker 6 Yeah, yeah. That's, it's so natural and so real.
I literally had a friend reach out to me yesterday.

Speaker 6 And she was just like, Jay, I've got this really big launch coming up in my life and her career. And she was like, but I was watching one of my friends and he had his big launch event.

Speaker 6 And then I was comparing mine to his. And, you know, and I think it's something we all do.
I know I do it too. Like it's such a natural thing.

Speaker 6 And I loved what you said earlier that it's just a thought you have to make peace with, that the thought's going to come up. Like we're not going to be able to get away with that thought.

Speaker 6 We're not going to be able to avoid that thought.

Speaker 6 And it's what we do with that thought and it's how we respond to it that makes all the difference.

Speaker 6 And this desire for that thought to never appear and to never happen again, that's what kind of causes us so much tension.

Speaker 6 It's almost like the day we accept that you can't avoid a thought, even if it's not peaceful, is the day you find peace because you just realize that you can't keep resisting it and you can't push it away.

Speaker 6 And then all of a sudden it loses its power on you. I don't know if that resonates or makes sense at all.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I would say it definitely makes sense. I think even

Speaker 1 trying to avoid a thought makes it much stronger. For me, I found myself often

Speaker 1 trying to meditate when I have a lot of thoughts.

Speaker 1 I love listening to ocean noises or rain. I think water has a very powerful effect on me.
And I don't try to push thoughts away.

Speaker 1 I try to welcome them and not solve them, but figure out why they're coming in an abundance.

Speaker 6 When did you start meditating?

Speaker 1 I think honestly before my first U.S. Open win.

Speaker 3 Wow. Yeah.

Speaker 6 What how did you get introduced to it?

Speaker 1 I didn't really get introduced to it. I just began noticing like I really enjoyed rainy days, and I began wondering what was the cause of that, and why did it cause me so much peace?

Speaker 1 And I knew Grand Slams were, particularly first rounds, they were very stressful. And so I just started listening to rain noises,

Speaker 1 I guess, the night before matches.

Speaker 6 How does it feel living in LA when we don't get a lot of rainy days?

Speaker 1 That doesn't bother me that much. I used to live in Florida and we would get like random rainstorms.
And

Speaker 1 I don't know. It was fun, but it was also a little bit chaotic for practice.

Speaker 6 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 6 I love that self-awareness of being able to connect rainy days to water sounds and rain sounds. I think, yeah, it's so interesting.

Speaker 6 I love water sound too. I find it so soothing and calming and beautiful.
And it's such an interesting thing.

Speaker 6 The The fact that you never got introduced to meditation, but were able to come to it of your own self, of recognizing what you,

Speaker 6 you know, what connects with you and what makes you feel calm. That's pretty awesome.
Is it something you still practice now or has it evolved at all?

Speaker 1 No, it's definitely something I practice now. I have an app on my phone that also does brainwaves while having the water noises and I listen to it every night.

Speaker 6 We've been talking a lot about like disconnecting and detaching from previous versions of ourselves.

Speaker 6 You've talked about how like getting your mom to like, you know, not work as hard was such a big goal for wanting to become a successful tennis player.

Speaker 6 What was it like when you reached that goal, when you could actually relieve her of all that pressure?

Speaker 1 It was a very joyful day,

Speaker 1 but at the same time,

Speaker 1 It was a little difficult for me because it was a goal that I've set for myself since I was very young and I almost felt a little lost, like I had to immediately set a new goal for myself.

Speaker 1 I mean, it was awesome to see her not work anymore.

Speaker 1 Um, but just that, like, immediate race to set a new goal for myself and to set a new standard was something that I struggled with for maybe a couple of days.

Speaker 6 Yeah, I mean, I can imagine it being harder than that because I feel like that's such a strong why, like such a strong purpose of wanting your mom not to have to work that hard.

Speaker 6 And that has so much meaning to it. It has so much gravitas to it.
Often goals are like, oh, I want to win something or I want to get somewhere.

Speaker 6 And then when you make it about service or helping your mother or helping someone, it almost gets so much deeper. I can imagine it's really hard to find a goal that deep again.

Speaker 6 Have you been able to find a new goal that feels that deeply rooted again?

Speaker 1 Not really.

Speaker 1 I think for me, most of my childhood was wanting my mom to stop working because I rarely saw her unless it was dinner time. It was in a way, I think, me trying to see my mother more often.

Speaker 1 And once I accomplished that, then it became more winning or making history or being the first Asian number one, stuff like that. And obviously,

Speaker 1 yeah, they're meaningful, a little more shallow, but still meaningful.

Speaker 1 But yeah, I think now, you know, I do have meaningful goals.

Speaker 1 Maybe they're just not as touching as, you know, retiring my mom, but but I'd love for my daughter to reach an age where she can see me play and kind of understand everything that's going on.

Speaker 6 You'll have to keep playing.

Speaker 1 I definitely have to keep playing for a little while longer, but I think you know, I've learned so much throughout the year, so I'm excited to learn more.

Speaker 6 Are you excited for her to get on the court? Would you like her to play as well?

Speaker 1 People ask me this all the time, and I think before I had her, I said definitely not. Um,

Speaker 1 but I I think now, like, you know, if she's interested about the sport, I'd want her to learn and she has a racket that she loves to swing around.

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Speaker 6 When you were going through your,

Speaker 6 when you announced that you weren't going to play and you took your break from tennis and competitive tennis for some time,

Speaker 6 what were you actually dealing with? Like what were you actually experiencing from a mental health perspective? Like what did that look like for you?

Speaker 1 I'd say the French Open break,

Speaker 1 what I was dealing with at the time, a lot of shame, which I talked to you about, like feeling embarrassed, feeling ashamed, like going against everything an athlete stood for, which is like, you know, fake it till you make it or don't show the other person, you know, any cracks in your armor.

Speaker 1 Honestly, just feeling very alone. I think tennis, of course, for me, I don't play double, so it's a solo sport and I don't necessarily have, you know, the most friends on tour.

Speaker 1 So I didn't really know what public reaction or reaction in general was. I remember

Speaker 1 after I pulled out of the French Open, I flew back home to LA and it just stayed in my house for maybe a week or two and I didn't, I just like instant carded and Uber Eats everything because I didn't want to see the outside world.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 I would say going to the Olympics after that changed my mindset a lot because there were so many athletes that thanked me and I felt so much shock because I didn't know that I was helping anyone and I almost kind of went into the Olympics thinking like people are gonna you know think that I'm like the worst athlete of all time.

Speaker 6 What was it that was weighing on you that even made you want to share the decision? Like what were you going through that was so hard for you to play and perform at that time?

Speaker 1 The emotions at the time felt so heavy and I'm trying to like recreate you know the exact emotions that led to the decision.

Speaker 1 But I remember I won the US Open, won the Australian Open, was trying my best to like win the French as well.

Speaker 1 And historically, I don't have like the best clay record, so a lot of press were asking me about that. And leading up into it, I wasn't doing amazing, but I wasn't doing terrible either.

Speaker 1 But I just was so stressed out going into the tournament that I didn't want to answer questions about it anymore because it was like a constant everyday thing.

Speaker 1 And I just wanted to focus on, you know what I could do it just kind of got to a breaking point because I remember saying I wasn't gonna do media and then that kind of blew up in my face everywhere and it became such a big deal and I didn't know why I just felt really bad because the tournament was very upset and I kind of felt like you know like people weren't focusing on the tennis anymore it was just focusing on

Speaker 1 who's not doing press, why she's not doing press. And so I just decided to leave.

Speaker 6 Wow. wow yeah thank you for sharing that by the way because i think it's yeah it just

Speaker 6 as i'm listening to you i'm thinking about it like when you look at movies actors make a movie and then they do a press run and you're talking about a movie that you recorded like in the past or you filmed in the past music's the same you record an album then you go and talk about it this is the opposite way like you're being asked about it before you go on the court and then obviously after as well and i can imagine like you just want to be focused and i i mean you know i don't do anything of any similar pressure, but I can think about even when I'm just going on stage to give a talk or a presentation or even an interview like this.

Speaker 6 And I know how much I need my downtime and my personal time to prepare and get my mindset right. And this isn't a competition.

Speaker 6 It's not stressful in the way the games are physically or mentally or anything. And so I can imagine that that becomes really difficult.

Speaker 6 Were there some athletes, who were the athletes that came up to you and said something to you at the Olympics that made you feel a sense of, I mean, I think you already knew you did the right thing, but people who came in reminded you that it was definitely a good decision.

Speaker 1 A lot of like female athletes.

Speaker 3 I

Speaker 1 got a really nice message from other tennis players as well. And I felt like I went from feeling very alone to not feeling so alone at all.
So

Speaker 1 it was really nice.

Speaker 6 Who'd be your ideal doubles partner if you did play?

Speaker 1 If I had to have a male doubles partner, Andre Agassi, oh wow, and then female, I would say Serena, but I would be very scared.

Speaker 1 To let her down, yeah, I would be apologizing all the time. So, um, you know what, Venus, she's always been so incredibly kind.

Speaker 6 Oh, I love that. I love that.
There must be some secret tennis society where you can make that happen, where no one's watching, right? Like a private game.

Speaker 1 Um, you know, potentially, but also, I feel like everyone's just, you know, living their lives.

Speaker 6 Yeah, yeah. I once got to play a private game against Novak Djokovic, and I got destroyed.

Speaker 1 I'm sorry, but I would have expected to get away from it. I couldn't return.

Speaker 6 Yeah, obviously, I couldn't return. I couldn't even return a serve.
Like, I couldn't even get to it.

Speaker 1 Oh, really?

Speaker 6 Yeah, that's how bad.

Speaker 1 And he was going easy, too?

Speaker 6 Probably, yeah, I imagine so. He's a nice guy.
He was like trying to coach me and help me out just for fun, but it was an embarrassing day.

Speaker 6 You talked about loneliness and friendship, and I find any athlete who's on the road, as much as a tennis player, Formula One, racers, soccer players, pretty much every sport, there's so much travel involved.

Speaker 6 Like, how have you built friendships and how have you maintained friendships as it isn't a team sport? And I think team sports, we forget that there is a sense of camaraderie.

Speaker 6 At least you have two or three people that become close friends. But when you're playing a single sport, it's actually a lot more challenging to have that.

Speaker 6 What does your friend circle look like and how has it evolved over time?

Speaker 1 Honestly, I'm pretty lucky because even though I'm not playing a team sport, I still have a team around me. So,

Speaker 1 you know, like my trainer, my physio, my

Speaker 1 coach, my hitting partner, we all travel the world together. And I'm the type of person that it does take a while to open up.
But

Speaker 1 I don't know. Once I do open up, things might get a little crazy.
For me, that relationship with my team is very important. And it's helped me a lot over the years.

Speaker 1 And of course,

Speaker 1 I guess talking to my mom, talking to my big sister, keeping those relationships is super important.

Speaker 6 You've said before that Kobe was a mentor for you as well, right? Kobe Bryant, who I was so grateful and honored to have a conversation with around five years ago now, sadly before his...

Speaker 6 tragic passing and what was that relationship like for you and why was it so important and powerful to you? How did you even meet?

Speaker 1 I met him because my agent,

Speaker 1 we were, I don't know, something had happened. And then we were talking about someone that would be a good mentor for me.
And he just was like, okay, Kobe.

Speaker 1 I don't, in my head, that's how it went. There was probably like very, like multiple steps to get to Kobe.

Speaker 1 But yeah, one day we were at his office and

Speaker 1 me and him sat and talked for like two hours. And he's such a genuine guy.
And it was just so easy and pleasant to talk to him. And that relationship was

Speaker 1 something that I treasure a lot because I felt like he was my big brother. And I could talk to him about

Speaker 1 sports advice and life advice and just things that were in my head.

Speaker 6 Yeah. Was there a piece of advice that he gave you that stayed with you?

Speaker 1 Basically, I remember asked him once, like, how does he not pay attention to people's opinions?

Speaker 1 And then he was like referencing Animal Planet and saying, like, you have to be the lion and the flies around your eyes are people's opinions and you just have to focus and keep your eyes straight.

Speaker 6 I love that.

Speaker 6 Do you find new mentors now? Is looking for mentorship a part of where you're at right now? Or is it no time whatsoever?

Speaker 1 I'm not necessarily sure. I would consider anyone my mentor after him.

Speaker 1 And I feel like the word mentor is such a big one. I would love to have people to converse with.

Speaker 1 And it's also weird because when I think of mentor, I think of someone that's like older than me.

Speaker 1 And I would love to have one. I just, you know, don't really know if how I would approach that.

Speaker 3 Maybe I would ask myself.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I'm kind of more interested in like trying to be a mentor to someone.

Speaker 1 I know that, you know, my path wasn't exactly the smoothest, but I would hope that the younger generation could maybe learn a thing or two.

Speaker 6 If you were coaching someone or mentoring them, what would be a piece of advice that you'd want to pass on to them or what's something that you feel you'd really want to instill in them?

Speaker 1 I think it would go back to like the Haitian, the Haitian way of like giving, even though, you know, I think human nature a little bit is to be selfish.

Speaker 1 Recently, I've kind of dealt with or overcome the feeling of the fear of being forgotten.

Speaker 1 And I think in that way,

Speaker 1 we kind of tend to keep things close to the best. And for me, I think sharing is caring and just trying to make the world better for the kids that come after us.

Speaker 6 I really believe that we're wired for generosity, but educated for greed. And that selfishness comes in because society encourages you to want, to get, to achieve, to get somewhere when actually your

Speaker 6 essence is trying to just be and live and experience and learn and heal it's almost like there's two tracks and i think we're on both of them but i think often we just get onto one of them and it becomes about achieving and winning which is important but you get away from the being living and experiencing and it's it's like how do you make sense of both of those and you're right having mentors is such a beautiful way to kind of follow in the footsteps of someone who's been there, done that and had had to think about those things earlier than you.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 6 But it seems like you still talk to your family a lot, your team, as you said, you're surrounded by them a lot.

Speaker 6 Who's the person you spend the most time with right now when you're not on the court and not thinking about tennis?

Speaker 6 And what do you, what's like, what's something you do when you're not playing or not preparing?

Speaker 1 Currently, the person I spend the most time with is my daughter.

Speaker 3 Yeah, of course.

Speaker 6 You said she's one year and five months?

Speaker 1 Yes. And she's teaching me a lot how to put my foot down because she definitely puts her foot down.

Speaker 1 It's the person I spend the most time with.

Speaker 3 Maybe

Speaker 1 either my boyfriend or my trainer because my trainer is with me like

Speaker 1 a very, very long time out of the day.

Speaker 1 He's a funny guy.

Speaker 6 Is he? Why is your trainer a funny guy?

Speaker 1 Can I ask you, what is your zodiac sign?

Speaker 6 Yeah, I'm a Virgo.

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah. He's a Virgo too.

Speaker 6 Okay, all right, okay. So now I'm a funny guy today.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 6 What date's his birthday, do you know?

Speaker 1 Um, I think

Speaker 1 August, no, September,

Speaker 3 September 8th.

Speaker 6 Um, September 6th.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 3 Carry on. Now continue.

Speaker 1 Um, so yeah. I'm thick-skinned.

Speaker 6 It's all right. You can say what you like.

Speaker 1 I don't know. I feel like Virgos are very like they want to be perfectionists or they are perfectionists.
And it's just funny to interact with him. And,

Speaker 1 you know, like I, when I get comfortable with people, I goof around around a lot. And I love seeing him get frustrated about it a little bit.

Speaker 1 But yeah, it's, it's just nice because I find Virgos to be very knowledgeable in their fields.

Speaker 6 Well, that's very kind. Thank you.
No,

Speaker 6 I've definitely learned over the years to give up that perfectionism.

Speaker 6 I've learned that. And my wife's been a big impact for that for sure because she's such a goofball.
And so I've always said, like, I'm the kind of person that takes life too seriously.

Speaker 6 And my wife doesn't take life seriously at all. It's let's robbed off on each other.
And it's been good to lose that kind of,

Speaker 6 yeah, but I definitely still have moments of it for sure. Like, I can't be late.
I have such a thing about being late. It upsets me so much.
And definitely, I like things in order.

Speaker 6 And I like things to be in their place. And that's all very, very true.
So me and you, me and your trainer would get along, I guess.

Speaker 3 Maybe, maybe.

Speaker 6 When's your birthday?

Speaker 1 October, so Libra. Okay.

Speaker 6 October what day?

Speaker 1 16th. Okay.

Speaker 6 Do you have a special ritual that you like to celebrate your birthday with or anything that comes around or not really?

Speaker 1 Usually I'm in Tokyo around those dates, but if I'm not at a tournament, I prefer to be like on the beach somewhere. So

Speaker 1 I think that's my ritual. I think now, obviously, with the birth of my daughter, I'd love to always have her around.

Speaker 6 Is the beach your happy place or is that just vacation?

Speaker 1 It's my happy place. Like I go there to think or write things down or just to, I guess,

Speaker 1 have some joy.

Speaker 6 Do you still go regularly now? Like is that part of...

Speaker 1 That's where I race to my car.

Speaker 3 Oh, really? Okay, got it.

Speaker 6 All right. So look for a tinted window car and go stand near a beach and you might get to race near me.
I love that. I love that.
You have such an endearing personality. Like I love,

Speaker 6 I love it when you think you're about to say something really like...

Speaker 6 awkward or whatever it is that goes through your mind and then you laugh about it and then you share it but it always turns out to be brilliant like it's, it's always funny and interesting and entertaining.

Speaker 6 And

Speaker 6 what's allowed you to be

Speaker 6 comfortable in your own skin lately?

Speaker 1 I think I'm very lucky because I've kind of been forced to be comfortable in my own skin.

Speaker 1 And I think that's due to like being a little bit different. I guess in general, like I'm Japanese, but maybe presenting I don't look Japanese.

Speaker 1 So that's when I was younger that often caught people off guard.

Speaker 1 But for me, this is just, you know, this is just how I look. This is how I know that I am.
And having both cultures

Speaker 1 is my way of life. And I've always felt very confident and comfortable with that.

Speaker 1 So I would say it's not necessarily something I've struggled with often, but I think also another phase of that is motherhood and

Speaker 1 trying to snap back with snapback culture. And I'm just,

Speaker 1 yeah, I guess loving myself. So self-love.

Speaker 6 I'm always fascinated by high-performing individuals who've played at, you know, in the top 1%

Speaker 6 of

Speaker 6 not only athletes, but then of your own sport. What does your routine look like on a game day? Like, how do you prep yourself? How do you get in the zone? And what does that look like?

Speaker 6 You talked about meditation earlier and things, but what does an actual breakdown look like?

Speaker 1 This is where like the routine kicks in. So every day is kind of the exact same.
I eat breakfast. Well, I wake up, meditate, take a shower, eat breakfast.

Speaker 6 Specific breakfast?

Speaker 1 Yeah, always the same breakfast every time. Usually it'd be like smoked salmon, but I'm kind of off that phase right now.

Speaker 1 So yeah, go to the tournament site, do like light hitting and then

Speaker 1 change into my outfit, listen to music, do like a game prep, and then warm up and play the match.

Speaker 6 Do you sleep well before a big game?

Speaker 1 Depends how big it is.

Speaker 1 I know before all of my finals, I didn't sleep as well. I think,

Speaker 1 yeah, I don't know. I just remember waking up sweating.

Speaker 1 I don't think you're really supposed to sleep well before moments like that.

Speaker 6 I ask because I remember like even having like big interviews and things like that.

Speaker 6 When I say interviews, I mean like when I was being interviewed for being at companies, which seemed like an important part of my career at one point, I remember just never sleeping well.

Speaker 6 Like the adrenaline is in my body. I'm like rehearsing in my head, but it's so important to playing well the next day to have rest and recovery and everything else.

Speaker 6 Was there any secret that you found to be able to sleep or at least be energetic the next day?

Speaker 1 Not really, but I found myself constantly playing the match in my head in my dreams the night before matches.

Speaker 1 So I felt like when the time actually came, I had already prepared myself for that and it actually helped me out quite a lot.

Speaker 6 If someone right now was, you know, going through depression or suffering from a mental health condition or experiencing something and they're listening right now and we know that our audience really turns to us in those times and so many people have listened to episodes here that have helped them through really difficult times in their life.

Speaker 6 What would you say to them? What would you share with them?

Speaker 1 I don't ever claim to know answers, but I think when I was at really low moments of my life, I always felt like I was alone.

Speaker 1 So I would say you're never alone. There's always going to be people that care about you way more than you think.

Speaker 1 And sometimes I think we hide it so well that we're struggling that they don't even know.

Speaker 1 So it's okay to ask for help and you shouldn't ever feel shame for that.

Speaker 6 I love love that. Yeah, no,

Speaker 6 it's always helpful hearing it from someone who's been through it. And I know our audience appreciates that a lot.
Was there any specific

Speaker 6 healing method or technique or approach that really helped you, especially getting over that shame, that guilt, that feeling you were carrying? Was there anything that helped?

Speaker 1 Honestly, I think just interacting with people, I tend to close myself off a lot, whether it's like

Speaker 1 being in my room by myself.

Speaker 1 So So yeah, just interacting with people, talking to my sister,

Speaker 1 and just realizing that there's a lot more to life than I know.

Speaker 6 A few moments ago, you were talking about how like there was this feeling of, you know, being forgotten and then

Speaker 6 taking a break. So like having the courage to take a break when you have the fear of being forgotten is probably one of the most courageous acts for anyone in the world, whatever they do.

Speaker 6 How have you kind of been able to make that decision and been able to reconcile that for yourself?

Speaker 1 I think it's a process that's kind of been sped up by the events of my life.

Speaker 1 I feel like those two things are maybe something that should have been spread out throughout years, but I just happen to put it together. I don't know.
I've won four Grand Slams.

Speaker 1 I've been very fortunate to light the Olympic torch. There's probably some more that my agent wants me to say, but I don't know.
Those are the things that come to my mind.

Speaker 1 And I've, in a way, accomplished so much more than I thought I would. And I want to accomplish so much more.
But at the same time, like, I

Speaker 1 needed to separate myself as a person. I think I told you I've been playing tennis since I was three.
So that's the only identity I know of myself.

Speaker 1 And I needed the break to figure out who I was as a person. And now I hope I do, and I think I do, but I'm able to stand tall and be confident.
And

Speaker 1 I don't know, be proud of myself for that.

Speaker 6 Yeah, I think that's the greatest accomplishment. I really do.

Speaker 6 I hearing you speak today, and I'm just so excited for everyone who's going to listen to recognize that the day we're not defined by our careers is.

Speaker 6 It's so interesting how society became defined by what we do at one point. And the question became, well, what do you do? And then that's how we introduced ourselves.

Speaker 6 And even if you look at last names, at one point they all became about a career, like baker and blacksmith and whatever all these names became our last names because they were our occupation and so they became our total identity and it's so interesting to think about how even in today's society our worth our

Speaker 6 everything is defined by what you do for a living and so to be able to go beyond that as young as you are and as early as you are, it's, I think it's a really powerful place to be.

Speaker 6 And only good can come from it. So it's pretty remarkable.
Thank you. I love hearing that.

Speaker 3 Thanks for saying I'm young.

Speaker 1 I said, thanks for saying I'm young.

Speaker 3 You are young. What?

Speaker 6 Where is people making you feel old?

Speaker 1 You know,

Speaker 1 maybe I'm making myself feel old. I think that's it.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I don't think you're, how are you old?

Speaker 1 I think it's also like growing up in the tennis world, there's always constantly young people coming up. So I start feeling like a grandma.

Speaker 6 That's a great point. That makes a lot of sense.
I feel like if you're in an industry where everyone's 18 or 19, or I guess in tennis cases, like three, like you said, you started at three.

Speaker 6 I was like, of course, you're going to feel ancient if everyone's starting at three years old. Naomi, it's been such a joy to talk to you today, honestly.
I've loved every moment of it.

Speaker 6 And I appreciate you being so open and funny. And like this conversation was as playful as it was profound.
And I loved that when I felt like we were playing tennis. I was like, you know, I hope so.

Speaker 6 You said I won one rally. So I'll tell you.

Speaker 1 No, I think you won that one. Okay.

Speaker 3 All right. I won the set.

Speaker 6 I'm going to say, I won the set. Yeah.
No, I think you won the set.

Speaker 3 Oh, really? Yeah, yeah. I think you won the set.

Speaker 1 What do you think the score was?

Speaker 6 Oh, oh, gosh. All right.
No, you told me what you think the score was.

Speaker 1 Let's get it really close. 7-6.
7-6.

Speaker 6 All right. So you're going to let me go that far.
I like that. I like that.
Well, we end every episode with a final five. These questions have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum.

Speaker 6 Oh, wow. And so, Naomi Osaka, these are your final five.
The first question is: what's the best advice you've ever heard or received? Ah,

Speaker 1 wow.

Speaker 1 Does that count as my answer?

Speaker 6 What's that?

Speaker 3 Saying

Speaker 3 the best advice I've ever heard.

Speaker 1 Just be yourself.

Speaker 6 Question number two, what's the worst advice you've ever heard or received?

Speaker 1 Just be yourself.

Speaker 3 No, I'm just kidding.

Speaker 1 What's the worst advice I've ever heard? It's like when people say just smile. But you know, sometimes I don't want to smile.

Speaker 1 Sorry. That was...

Speaker 3 No, no, no, I get it.

Speaker 6 No, it's, I understand.

Speaker 6 It's a forced, It's a forced emotion. It doesn't work.
You can't force either. Question number three.
What's something you used to value that you don't value anymore?

Speaker 1 People's opinions. Because I think I,

Speaker 1 I don't know, I value my own opinion more. And I think

Speaker 1 I might have a better opinion because I'm living my life.

Speaker 6 Question number four, what are you most excited for in the next 12 months?

Speaker 1 Seeing my daughter grow and returning and playing on tour to play more tournaments.

Speaker 6 Which tournament do you get most excited about?

Speaker 1 Oh, always the Slams.

Speaker 1 I feel like they're so special.

Speaker 6 Yeah, I need to come watch you.

Speaker 3 You should. Yeah, I'd love that.

Speaker 6 That would be awesome. Fifth and final question.
We ask this to every guest who's ever been on the show. If you could create one law that everyone had to follow, what would it be?

Speaker 1 Do something good for...

Speaker 1 I guess the younger generation

Speaker 1 or do something good for the person coming up after you.

Speaker 6 That's a great law. I love that.
I think you've definitely done that.

Speaker 6 You've genuinely,

Speaker 6 ever since I read your op-ed and learned about what you were doing to open up about mental health, I was like, I need to meet this human. I was in awe of what you used your platform to do.

Speaker 6 I think it's been

Speaker 6 incredible how it's given so many people permission, so many people the opportunity to actually not just smile and share how they actually feel.

Speaker 6 And I think it's sent ripples into not just the sports world but beyond and so i thank you so much for your service and what you've done for so many and i'm so grateful that you allowed me to interview today and thank you so much yeah really appreciate it if you love this episode i need you to listen to one of my favorite conversations ever it's with the one and only tom holland on how to overcome your social anxiety especially in situations where you're not drinking and everyone else is we talk about his sobriety journey and so much more.

Speaker 6 He gets really personal. I can't wait for you to hear it.
It's gonna blow your mind. The quote is, if you have a problem with me, text me.

Speaker 6 And if you don't have my number, you don't know me well enough to have a problem with me.

Speaker 2 And now, superhuman Shaq.

Speaker 4 I keep telling them not to say that. I'm no superhuman.
Believe it or not, I struggle with moderate obstructive sleep apnea, or OSA.

Speaker 4 In adults with obesity, moderate to severe OSA is a condition where breathing is interrupted during sleep with loud snoring, choking, gasping for air, and even daytime fatigue.

Speaker 4 Let's just say it can sound a lot like this.

Speaker 4 Sound familiar? Learn more at don'tsleeponosa.com.

Speaker 2 This information is provided by Lilly, a medicine company.

Speaker 7 Hey, audiobook lovers. I'm Cal Penn.

Speaker 5 I'm Ed Helms.

Speaker 7 Ed and I are inviting you to join the best-sounding book club you've ever heard with our new podcast, Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club.

Speaker 2 Each week, we sit down with your favorite iHeart podcast hosts and some very special guests to discuss the latest and greatest audiobooks from Audible.

Speaker 7 Listen to Iarsay on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow Iarsay and start listening on the free iHeart radio app today.

Speaker 3 Coca-Cola.

Speaker 1 For the big, for the small, the short, and the tall. Peacemakers, risk-takers.

Speaker 1 For the optimists, pessimists. For long-distance love.

Speaker 1 For introverts and extroverts, the thinkers and the doers, for old friends and new,

Speaker 5 Coca-Cola for everyone.

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