Drawn and Quarter-Zipped: The Death of Sports Fashion, with Wesley Morris

Welcome to Pablo Torre Finds Out.

I am Pablo Torre and today we're going to find out what this sound is.

Do you think that would have happened to Don Zimmer if he were wearing like a fedora and a trench coat and a suit?

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I did take notes on some things.

Ooh.

I probably won't need them, but I have notes too.

Okay.

And they are subdivided by both feelings and by sport.

And the surprising thing to me, the reason why I brought you here, is because I think you have a greater clarity of feeling than me.

I'm surprised I feel as strongly as I do about today's subject.

Okay.

How would you describe, Wesley, the top-level feeling that is in those pages of your notebook?

That things are bad.

Things are really, really bad.

Like things are bad in this notebook, which also contains notes for

the color purple

and the Indigo Girls documentary called Glitter and Doom and

Zone of Interest.

My zone of interest notes are in this.

But we're here today to talk about

what coaches wear.

We're here grappling with I believe to be an underreported, underdiscussed, underdiscussed, under discussed consequence of the pandemic.

Oh, you think this too?

1 million percent.

It changed.

I mean, I mean, America is going to be like, when I say it changed everything, they're going to hang up the phone.

No, no, no.

Keep going with this take.

It changed everything.

Yes.

It made everybody lazy, lazy, unimaginative.

Like, even the tunnel walks now are just like...

This is what my girlfriend had on the sofa when I left the house this morning.

So this is what we're doing.

I should clarify that your expertise on this subject is earned.

It comes with previous,

previous note-taking.

I mean, you used to write a column called The Sports Torialist.

Oh, yeah.

Right?

And so I'm a guy wearing a f ⁇ ing blue cardigan and some shorts.

I am not somebody who comes to this with a predisposition for such criticism.

And yet I am like,

there is a pandemic of athleisure that is

eating away at this thing I love.

You're 100% correct about the athleisification of

life on this planet.

Like really, you go anywhere now and it's, and that's what everybody's wearing because it's cheap.

It's allegedly comfortable.

Yeah.

Was there a a moment when you saw it and you were like oh there's no we're not going back from this it was literally the pandemic right right and it was because of the bubble the bubble yeah it was when when rules formally changed as well as habits as well as um human behavior but the rules in the bubble for the nba and the wmba were look we're going through a tough time um we don't have fans here people aren't really like watching was the whole vibe of like so we can try different things and let's make it so that all of us are in sweatpants.

And so sports began to reflect everyone else outside and the coach,

the portrait of authority, began to look like

the opposite.

The players.

Like labor.

It really is.

And this is not a take that I was like, oh, I knew I would feel this way, but now I'm just like, we have gone way too far.

It's too far.

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Okay, so you may remember our friend Wesley Morris, the critic at large of the New York Times, as the movie person, as the only person to ever win two Pulitzer Prizes for criticism, in fact.

But you should also know that Wesley used to be a blogger.

A blogger who saw clothes as worthy of real and rigorous and published analysis, like any other art form, he saw clothes as something more than simply superficial.

And I, while reading Wesley, did not feel that way, necessarily.

But while watching basketball these past few years, both men's and women's college and pro,

I have found myself feeling more and more and more like Wesley.

I have found myself rubbernecking, actually, watching these games, but unable to stop craning my neck back, morbidly, at the disasters unfolding along the sidelines of these games.

Because back in my day, Until 2020, in other words, when team-branded casual wear replaced suits across college and pro basketball, you could tell a coach by their wardrobe.

Coaches were characters.

They were characters with coaching strategies and fashion strategies.

Because the players wore uniforms, but the adult in charge did not.

This is how we got Pat Riley, making Armani more famous than any model did, while he was coaching the Lakers, for instance.

It is also how we got Jim Bayhive, famous for ripping off his suit jacket so often while coaching Syracuse, that he started wearing a suit jacket that was lined with pictures of him ripping off his other suit jackets.

And if you're wondering, yes, Jim Bohem at one point also ripped that suit jacket off too.

But after the pandemic, Jim Boeheim stopped wearing the suit jacket.

In fact, pretty much all coaches stopped wearing anything like the stuff that I remember.

What are people wearing?

They are wearing

what I'm going to generously describe as a sweater,

a pullover, and it's got a quarter zipper.

Yes.

The zipper doesn't come all the way down.

Nope.

One reason I think it's convenient this took hold the way that it is because you, how do you get that garment on or off?

You got to pull it over your head.

Most of these coaches are bald.

They don't have any hair to worry about.

Right behind you.

Oh, yeah.

There he is.

Rick Carlisle.

That's a shame.

Eastern Conference Final.

This man used to have hair.

I mean, he was thinning, but he could have kept it.

No shot.

I mean, this looks good, too.

But what we're seeing, though, beneath

the collarbone is a quarter-zip pullover type deal.

I mean, he thinks he's being cute by having the placard cover the zipper.

We ain't fooled.

We know.

I want some explanation because it's not going to come from Rick Carlisle.

No.

It's not going to come from even maybe the Pacers.

I think the league would probably have something to say about why it's the same thing.

You get the team logo on the right breast and you get the Nike logo on the left.

Some of them have like nice, quote, nice piping around the zipper.

The pacers are giving this man a placard to pull to have, you know, hide the zipper.

But it's all the same.

It's all the same garment.

And the assistant coaches, the data boys.

Yes.

Like the equipment manager.

Everybody's wearing

giving him his clothes are wearing the same clothes they're handing.

It's so infantilizing.

I don't understand.

So it's a question of like what is authority supposed to look like and why do we want it to look like a certain way?

We don't like authority anymore.

We don't believe in it.

We don't trust it.

I think that there's something about the coach looking like the players or looking like appearing to be in tandem with the players.

Yes.

Peers.

The Donald Sterling situation, right?

For the first time, in as clear a way as you possibly could have,

an owner being

very clear about who he was in relation to his team and the team he owned and the players who worked for him.

Yes.

Who, quote, quote, worked for him.

We make the game.

Right.

The Donald Sterling quote about like, this is ours, not yours.

Right.

I support them and give them food and clothes and cars and houses.

Who gives it to them?

Does someone else give it to them?

Do I know that I have?

Who makes the game?

Do I make the game or do they make the game?

The thing that always had bothered, at least me, about the way the league worked was that it was a league full of white owners

with prominent black staff.

And what would happen every, you know, what, how many times a season?

A couple times a season, there'd be a big trade.

And then there's there's something called a draft, which is really an auction, essentially.

And it just never felt good.

So it actually was a relief.

I don't know, Wesley.

I feel like measuring the body parts of black people, it can be entirely race neutral.

Okay, Pablo.

I just want to know how strong they are.

How high can you jump?

Can I feel that arm?

Can I

touch you?

What Donald Sterling was literally doing in the locker room?

Oh, yeah.

Just like feeling his property.

Well, when that came out, all the rev, all the things that got shook loose for players about this man, the idea that, you know, we're a bunch, we're mostly a bunch of black guys, and these owners are white guys.

And what does it mean to like have a 400-year-old racial dynamic commodified and broadcast and codified in this way?

And what does it mean that, like, we don't have any say in how we, how we look,

where we go as players?

Like, we don't have any, like, our agents and managers and owners are determining where on the chessboard of the sport we go.

I think management got that signal too.

And they don't want to look like people who own things, right?

They want to look like they manage things.

And what does a manager do?

He's wearing a,

you know, $5,000 suit

many times a week, a different one.

Right.

It's just like, I'm going to wear this very simple, casual thing.

It is a, it is like an egalitarian

kind of a flex, really.

And I think it makes it easier for the league.

It's a story the league can tell itself about what it isn't.

Right.

Right.

And I don't see those guys, quote, graduating to, to suiting, right?

To wearing like a tailored fitted suit.

I think rick carlisle should be ashamed of himself

i'm gonna i'm gonna gender this a little bit any woman married to a man who needs to go out somewhere for a special occasion even if it's just dinner because you got a babysitter for the night when that dude comes down the steps i mean there are a lot of women who are just like okay

we're going to dinner Not the 17th hole, motherfucker.

You need to go back upstairs and fix that.

But I actually think that these women are like, well, that's some effort.

Oh, wow.

That's the effort.

The soft bigotry of low expectations.

Yeah.

I mean, he's trying something.

And the thing is, like, the golfification.

It is, it golf is clearly the aesthetic

underneath all of the NBA coaches.

That's what these guys are wearing.

They all look like phys ed coaches, like as a, as a phalanx on the sideline of the court.

They all look like they're about to coach, you know, a bunch of 10-year-olds through dodgeball.

You would not know that they are in charge of a multi-billion dollar enterprise.

Who make themselves, you know, encapsulate some coaches.

Millions.

Millions of dollars.

No question.

This is unacceptable to me.

What are you dressing up for?

Is an operative question here.

It's as if everybody's been invited to an event and the dress code, it's one of those wedding invitations where it's vague and it's sort of like you interpret this how you want to.

Festive attire.

Festive attire.

F, you're a festive attire.

What?

Tell me what to wear.

Tell me what to f ⁇ .

Yes.

I could be wearing anything.

This is an invitation to embarrassment.

No, I'm not falling for that.

The history of basketball coaches on sidelines.

Some of the greatest ones, some of the most revered ones.

Larry Brown, coaching the Denver Nuggets of the ABA.

Stop it.

Have you not seen these?

That's Larry?

This is Larry Brown.

My Larry?

Your Larry Brown, Philadelphia 76ers, former head coach, head of Team USA, the guy who coached Alan Iverson, the face of a certain authority back in the NBA.

Wesley, what is the outfit on the right?

What are you seeing there?

Hee-haw?

Literal, but literal Ash Kosh Bagosh overalls.

Hold on, though.

Pablo,

can we just do it?

What you got?

He spent the whole game looking like this.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And Wesley Morris is telestrating the crotch of an overall Larry Brown.

No secrets.

I now am seeing what you have spotted immediately.

It's just like, it's just bold.

But I mean, look, it's, what is it, 1979, you said?

Yeah, in the 70s.

This is F, this is like Saturday Night Fever era.

This is definitely Hee-Haw era.

He was known as the Mod Father.

I mean, he's wearing Starch Key and Hutch on the upper left.

The tan leather

vest over a brown button.

And Sesame Street down on the

bottom right.

Sesame Street sweater i mean but look what everybody else is wearing one of the people

at that table this the scoring to the announcing table yeah is wearing a really great peach turtleneck oh we got hold on can we summon if you want turtleneck oh can we summon 81 lenny wilkins

coaching the sonics

Look at the palette.

Look at it all.

How would you describe what Lenny is wearing?

What Coach Wilkins is wearing?

Shaft goes to Seattle.

The shiny black leather.

I mean, just the excellent, like, like a big wide lapel.

It might even be, is it possible it's double-breasted?

It has that effect.

It might just be single-buttoned, too.

But over the turtleneck.

But over this, like, this rust-color turtleneck is fantastic.

He looks f ⁇ ing great.

I need to see the whole thing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like, I'm sure the pants are flaring at the bottom and he's got a a pair of boots on, and that's probably going to work.

Yes.

And I want you to just compare and contrast

Lenny Wilkins in 81 with 2020 Nick Nurse.

Oh, like, Nick Nurse.

I can't look.

Oh, Nick.

Oh, my God.

It's Paul Blart Mall cop.

Paul Blart Mall cop in a spread.

defensive stance.

Now, this is important, actually.

This picture is important because what is it demonstrating, right?

It's demonstrating there's more to the job, obviously, than just sitting

in a chair for, you know, four quarters.

But it also is demonstrating that you can find pants that'll allow you to make this dance.

There's no excuse, boys.

Right.

You can find pants that will still let you act a fool.

Yep.

Do your version of a weird hockey dance as if you're a New Zealander tribesman.

Yeah.

Also, I love that his button is like a like a coaches for racial justice or whatever.

Oh, my.

Yes.

It does say, situating us, obviously in 2020, racial justice, as if that's his mall badge.

Better than Paul Blart's mall badge.

Jesus, man.

He's not wearing the quarter zip, right?

He's wearing a golf shirt.

He's wearing a polo, a golf polo.

And black pants.

Pink and white stripe.

golf polo.

What I would say are smart, smart shoes, right?

You know what?

They're those like smart dress shoes that men wear because they think they're comfortable, because men think that dress shoes aren't comfortable, but you got to bring them in and they'll be like wearing a couch on your feet.

The idea that formal wear, or even just the wear that we saw, Larry Brown, Lenny Wilkins, that that would feel

imprisoning as opposed to liberating.

Yeah, yeah, I mean, but I don't think,

I don't think our coaches need to go to Margaritaville during the game.

Save that for after when y'all win.

If you're looking to add something special to your next celebration, try Remy Martin 1738 Accord Royale.

This smooth, flavorful cognac is crafted from the finest grapes and aged to perfection, giving you rich notes of oak and caramel with every sip.

Whether you're celebrating a big win or simply enjoying some cocktails with family and friends, Remy Martin 1738 is the perfect spirit to elevate any occasion.

So go ahead, treat yourself to a little luxury, and try Remy Martin 1738 Accord Royale.

Learn more at remymartin.com.

Remy Martin Cognac, Veeen Champain, afforded an alcoholic volume, reported by Remy Control, USA, Incorporated in New York, New York, 1738, Centaur design.

Please drink responsibly.

And so, how you answer the question, the Rorschach test of what does festive attire look like to you, all these guys are answering as if they are going to the 17th hole.

And meanwhile, okay, as a matter of contrast, in women's college basketball.

Oh, boy.

Yes, bring it.

I'm looking at Kim Mulkey,

and she looks like this, Wesley.

Look at this.

These are just three outfits.

If you're not watching YouTube at Draft News Network, my God.

LSU head coach Kim Mulkey.

Politics are one thing, but her fashion sense.

I mean, her fashion is a politics,

right?

I mean,

she looks like a Muppet blew up on her, one of these outfits.

Another one of them looks like,

I mean,

it looks like she's our righteous gemstones character.

I mean, it's it's deeper than that, though.

It's kind of like

it's like she took Barbie steroids and that's what came out right like

there's one i just in order from left to right i want to describe this like what is like on the left the left is a modris jacket yeah that's got flower like flowers embroidered into it it looks like it's a there's a bright green and brown on white pattern and then the flowers which feel i mean it looks like uh

kind of like what those like like a sea anemone almost well yes that's fair do you know the company bodhi

Are you, is that a Bodhi sweater?

I called it.

I called it.

Thank you.

The first one to mention that this is a sweater of some repute.

I digress.

And then on the sides

are a boa, are two boa, right?

It's like, it's like that Randy Macho Man Savage

is growing out of her arms or something.

Right.

And she's hawked out in this picture.

It's not helping.

There's a word that you've used on a previous appearance on this show.

There is a camp to this, Wesley.

Yes.

Oh, 100%.

Which is part of why the politics of this are so, like, to me, mind-blowing.

What are her politics?

Super Trumpy.

Oh, interesting.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, this is

not surprising, by the way.

I'm not here to.

Anyway, that's not even why I'm bringing this up.

No matter what,

how much ruination she wants to bring upon this country or help bring upon this country.

I think that the NBA should be looking at a person like Kim Mulkey and being, you know, like, you know what?

Rick Carlisle, i really want to see you do more

i don't know full houses

you know straight straight flushes on on your blazers the middle picture is a but seemingly like uh black blazer uh bedazzled sequined it's from a company called oh you've looked this up queen of sparkles is the company that makes this channel there are dice on it there's a horseshoe there is a poker chip there's a heart there's a slot machine Slot machine.

Yeah.

Win, win, win.

And then on the right, it's just, it feels like she's mutating into a Muppet, to your point.

This is like, what are those cuffs coming out of a lime green?

What are the things that go on the heads of pencils?

Those cute little things with the, it's like somebody took a bunch of those.

Yeah, those are like

pom-poms or like little pop-ups.

Her pockets are stuffed with like decapitated troll hairs.

Trolls.

Yes, that's it.

Yeah, just troll hair.

The weirdest possible hair.

But here's the important thing.

We're talking about how Outre these outfits are.

They are ridiculous.

By the way, I just want to point out that House of Sparkles blazer has matching pants.

That's important.

Of course, right?

And the other things are separate.

There's a like mint-colored blazer with the little trolls' heads on it.

Yeah.

And a pink, probably a tank top and pink pants.

So these are like really considered outfits and they fit, right?

These are clothes that fit this woman.

No doubt.

They look good on her, like in terms of like a silhouette.

They look great.

And even with Macho Man bowing out of her arms, she looks comfortable in these clothes.

I love that she wears this stuff.

And it's another thing, it's an important thing to also say is that she keeps the jackets buttoned, right?

She's literally screaming at a ref or something right now.

I don't know what she's doing.

But she's kept that button button.

Yeah, she's screaming like she's insurrecting and the whole time her madras is well,

well buttoned.

Yes, I mean, it looks, she's like forming an oh, like Palo C.

I,

but the clothes fit.

Yes.

And she looks fantastic.

I love this for her.

I love what they say.

But I mean, just to go here, our friend Craig, I mean, it wasn't my friend and probably wasn't yours either, but Craig Sager, the late, great Craig Sager.

Man, no one dressed more boldly.

I think that Kim Mulkey, I mean, she does have corollaries in other sports.

They tend to be like professional wrestling,

you know, sideline announcing or, you know, whatever, however we're going to classify what it was that

Craig Sager did.

That Craig Sager did.

And by the way, some Clyde Frazier.

Yes, yes.

Patterns.

But Clyde,

you wouldn't have to spend an entire game looking at Clyde dressed that way, right?

This is like before and after.

This is for like, you know, his commercials and stuff, magazine spreads.

This is a different thing.

We're like, how many cutaways during an LSU game are we getting to Kim Mulkey?

I went to watch LSU play.

I stuck with it the whole game.

And I was excited to see what Kim Mulkey was going to come out in.

And she came out in a green number, powerful, bright.

I was like, yes, this is her Tiger Woods wearing red on a Sunday.

Now, look, by the way, her counterpart, Don Staley, is, I would say,

the opposite, but also great.

It's seemingly like she asked GQ, like, hey, can you style me?

And they're like, we got you in Gucci and Blenciaga and like in a variation, not of like high fashion, but then like.

It doesn't read that way.

It reads as expensive athleisure.

Well, I would even go up a notch.

It's like, she's going to the club.

Right.

What's the comfiest thing I can wear to the club?

It is built for comfort.

This is not athleisure.

It's this TLC business over here.

She's 54, I believe.

54.

Yeah, she's 54.

From Philly.

I just think that there is something playful here.

Kim Mulkey is also playing, but she's playing with.

Right.

She knows that she's here to like cause some alarm.

Yeah, she's like a bird of paradise.

She's at a paint party is what she is.

This

is a a totally different flavor of thing.

Dawn Staley is having fun

with

just herself, right?

And it's funny that she had troll heads, Kim Mulkie, on those clothes because, or what read as troll hair, anyway.

Because we're being trolled.

She is trolling

everybody.

I dare you to say something about get up.

Yep.

I dare you.

Anyway, Dawn Staley.

This is like combination 80s, sorry, 90s, 80s.

She's like the baddest huxtable, right?

She is doing.

She's subverting a dress code.

She's like, yes, I am wearing a sweater, a cardigan, but it is going to be tattered, but in that way, that's clearly expensive.

My jewelry is beaded.

It is African.

It is not made of gold or diamonds or platinum.

So take that.

to the extent that there is even a dress code in the W NBA.

But

I love these clothes.

You don't even have my favorite Dawn Staley.

Oh, which one is that?

There's one that she's wearing like a sweater that looks like a Basquiat threw up on some fabric.

And it's got little tassels at the bottom, and it's long and loose and baggy.

And she's wearing these great baggy leather pants that have these grommets all over them.

Like the way a workers, the way work pants have those grommets, except the grommets completely reframe the middle of her inner thigh, essentially.

Yeah, the problem.

She's wearing them i'm looking this up with rubber clocks like platform rubber clocks it reminds me if like a post beyonce jay-z song if a four if a track from 444 had a garment this would be it

this is it right here give it a Grammy but confidence this reads as confidence we're talking about the freedom of expression right the thing that we've been talking about this whole time is about like what yes what we what we should have the right to do with our bodies under all circumstances

and in the same way that it it clearly isn't regulated that all the players have to wear the same shoe uh in any sport everybody seems to be wearing different things on the on the floor um on the court on the field whatever um i also don't does not seem to i don't know what the rules are that say that anybody has to wear anything.

I believe you can wear whatever you want at this point.

But it's telling to me

that on every single one of these teams, all of the coaches, the entire coaching staff on every single team in the league is wearing the exact

same

outfit, right?

Same get up.

And I don't know what is really being aspired to more than

Like what these men would say.

I guarantee I

want somebody to call you and dispute this if I'm wrong.

Pablo only wants to hear from you if you are on the coaching staff of one of these teams.

51385 Pablo, leave us a voicemail.

Yeah.

I think that what they would say, if this is not mandated by a team or the league, and it could be, but I'm just going to say these guys all think it feels good.

Just feels nice.

I don't have to think about what to wear.

Oh, there's a...

Okay, so

I'm here to do the stats for the game.

I'm not trying to look good.

Wesley, your notebook, your little notebook.

I don't have to go to any of that because I'm here about, I'm here to give results.

Right.

But I call both

because sports had been doing perfectly fine for decades with men wearing full ass suits, making it work, winning championships, dominating sports.

I just don't, I don't buy that this look

is, is more comfortable.

Just wear the same suit every night.

rick petino

at 71 years old the all white all white and the last one he did had no tie and was bou clay

i mean

it had

tooth

it's just crazy there's no excuse for these people i but again I want, I would love to hear what they would have to say about why they choose to go this route.

Is there one assistant coach who isn't like, man,

I just got this great suit the other day, electric blue?

Think about what that decision would be like.

It would be the decision to look unlike everyone else in your phalanx.

Right.

The decision to deliberately say

to fit out.

Right.

To fit out and to fit out.

Have you seen this photo before?

Can we go to 1977, a gentleman wearing a turtleneck, all black?

Oh my God.

Do you know who this is?

Is it Bob Fossey?

When did he coach?

What team did he coach?

It looks like Bob Fosse.

Is it Tommy Toon?

It is Hubie Brown.

Oh,

wow.

Hubie Brown.

Really?

Yes.

Are Hubie Brown right now?

90-year-old.

I've seen literally everything that's happened in basketball.

I've been alive longer than the NBA.

Hubie Brown.

Wow.

Is

dressed like he's about to walk between two skyscrapers

on a high wire.

God bless.

god bless that's very good for you i think we're done here uh that's amazing i'm assuming that jacket that window pane jacket that's that's hanging there probably goes over this but i hope not i hope not that is he's got bell bottom even just the body language of like his two hands comfort comfort comfort oh my comfort

like he is fine with himself and he looks like he is ready to go coach and move and yell and do do everything that you think you need athleisure to do.

Pablo, when I lived in Boston, I lived in Boston for

13, 12 consecutive years.

For a lot of the time I was there, Doc Rivers was my basketball coach.

I mean, not mine, but you know, the Celtics.

And I had been so in awe of his

demeanor, his composure.

his his style.

Not amazing style, but like, it was very good, right this is a man who spent some time looking the way he looked

the first book i wanted to write

and i didn't know that i wanted to write a book until i thought about this i was in a sephora one day trying to find um

an aftershave like a like a like a like a post-shave lotion yeah how all great literature is born in the hunt for aftershave Somebody at the store was asking me what I was looking for.

And the first thing I said to this woman was, do you know who Doc Doc Rivers is?

And she said, no.

I said, well, imagine just

the most

delicious glass bowl of chocolate pudding

you could ever hope to taste.

That's what his skin looks like.

And she said, sir, this is a Sephora.

I need to call my lawyer.

I wanted to write a grooming book about Doc Rivers.

I wanted to write a book that went through every classification of self-appearance, right?

I wanted to talk about skincare.

I wanted to talk about hair care.

I wanted to talk about tailoring.

I wanted to talk about selecting clothes to wear.

I wanted to talk about socks.

I wanted to talk about shoes.

I wanted to talk about like

how to perform your job.

in these clothes while also feeling like yourself.

How do these clothes make you Doc Rivers feel?

Because I was certainly, I could not have seen what if you had asked me in 2012,

15,

18, Pablo,

would Doc Rivers ever succumb to the quarter zip pullover?

Oh.

Would he?

And now look at us.

It's a tragedy.

And I wonder, does he miss the suits?

Yes.

Because

the thing I want to say in response to the people who would say, well, it's more comfortable, I call it.

I wear a suit maybe twice a week to work.

I don't walk up and down a sideline.

I sit at a desk.

I get on and off the subway.

I ride my bike to work.

So sometimes I ride in the suit if the weather is acceptable enough, if I'm not going to sweat too much and I don't have to go too far.

It's perfectly comfortable.

The suits these guys

can afford a suit.

The suits

men can get.

You're walking around in a bed is how good you can get red country on those pants.

No, I don't want to hear it.

Don't tell me about comfort.

I keep on returning to the idea of golf because golf is also the sport.

Golf is ruining America.

It's the sport of the retired.

It's the sport of someone who actually isn't going to move around that much.

I mean,

Doc, it feels like he's in that phase.

Well, all of the stuff.

He's got one foot on the course, as it were.

Pabo, you are making...

This is all coming back to me.

I don't want to sh ⁇ on golf, right?

Because

it's complicated.

I mean, it deserves a little defecation given what has transpired in the last two or three years with this LIV business.

Sure, yeah.

Because

it's like watching some of your favorite players get raptured,

but go in the opposite direction.

Ruptured.

They're being ruptured.

Yeah, it's like, what if Thanos snapped his fingers and they wound up in Saudi Arabia?

Prison!

Come on!

I missed your person!

Mr.

Woods, I don't feel so good.

Golf is

the restaurant that all the people who work in restaurants go after work.

Right?

Because they all do it.

All the football players play golf.

All the basketball players play golf.

Everybody fucks.

Baseball players.

The tennis players.

Everybody goes to golf when dinner's over, over, right?

When athletes dinner is over.

Whatever, because this is why I know that

it's golf that's doing this.

And that golf is,

it's got to be more, because it's psychological as much as every other sport is, but it's also individual, therefore compounding

the importance of the psychology.

And if you don't feel comfortable, if you don't think something is comfortable, you can't perform.

If you don't have your

Binky.

Right.

If you're not in your comfort zone.

Well, Binky, let's stay with Binky for a second because I was reading about, like, I really did.

I mean,

I kind of still do like Bryson DeChambeau

as a personality.

Strong, strong Delta as well.

Now, right?

Oh, because he built himself into this.

His body's changed a lot over the last couple of years, right?

He's trying, he's been trying to, I don't know, he's been trying to find his ideal.

Engineering, his perfect form.

And what's funny is all his bodies are winning bodies, right?

Or like close to winning bodies, right?

Like he came in second at the PGA the other day, right?

In order to be able to perform at their, at their highest, they have to feel the most free.

And if you're wearing clothes that impede your ability to move freely, and that's of all the sports, I mean, golf and tennis, I think are the ones, I mean, all the sports.

I don't, there's no most.

You got to have clothes that that make you feel like you don't weigh anything that your body can do anything um i hear a lot of football players right now and they're probably they're like i play with 35 pounds of equipment i don't have time to hear this but i bet you that equipment's gotten really much lighter over the years much more aerodynamic football's also war and so the expectations for like what the preciousness of your wardrobe even is but even at the end of the day to be able to run right like you have to you have to be comfortable in order to reach these top speeds and because you look at the combine stuff and those guys aren't wearing what you wear when you actually play football they are wearing i mean they are they are nothing they are the dancers bob fossey is is choreographing you be

that's right we've got your chorus line

I really resent, because, you know, I've been walking, I walk around New York City.

I live in, we need to live, we live here, and I point out to my boyfriend who is not really paying attention to, like, he notices what other people wear, but I'm the person who is pointing out to him that it's golf people are wearing.

And it's really taken over.

You've seen it.

I work in Midtown.

You go to Midtown and it's like being in Augusta in April.

You, you wouldn't, and there are actually people walking around going to work in masters attire.

They're wearing quarter zip masters pullovers.

Ready just in case they got to go, you know, Make a cut.

Absolutely.

It's really wild.

And so I think all these people in other sports who go play golf, whenever they go play, and in some people's cases, it's often.

I am shocked by how often these quarterbacks and

basketball players are going to play golf.

Steph Curry loves playing golf.

Loves it.

If you watch what they wear when they play, I mean, they're not dressed like Alan Iverson.

They look like an NBA assistant coach.

Yes, yes, yes.

Meanwhile, they could be looking like Kim Mulkey.

I believe that it was 1950 was when Major League Baseball created the rule, which outlawed non-uniform attire in the dugout.

So everybody, by definition, was wearing the same thing.

And so this is Braves manager Brian Snicker,

dressed like he's about to, I don't know, like

John Rocker in 20 more years.

It looks like he's about to, yeah, take or charge the mound.

And

what do we do with a sport that makes its managers, its coaches literally cosplay as if they are the athletes?

I don't like it now because,

I mean, look at Dusty Baker.

Yes.

This is a wise man.

Every time somebody go, like every time he goes, you know, during a game, somebody comes over to old Dusty and they're like, hey,

talk to me about what's going on right now.

Would you, would you guys, would you feed this team today?

And old Dusty's like, you know.

We just, I can't quite do Dusty.

He speaks fast, but it's deep and it's like a little

twangy.

Yep.

But, you know, he gives a thoughtful answer, but then you look at what he's wearing and it's like, you're the shortstop too?

Doesn't make any sense.

And I think that they should, they, I don't want, but I'd rather, I'd rather have them wear this than the golf clothes,

right?

Because then they look like McKenzie is managing the team.

It's funny.

I do believe that they should not be wearing the team uniform.

I definitely believe that.

Because I think the problem with baseball right now, there's a lot of problems with baseball as a as a cultural phenomenon.

Like, I love baseball as a sport to watch.

And, you know, I'm from Philadelphia, so I'm real happy right now.

They're doing real well.

But, you know, there was the earlier this season, there was the fiasco with the, with the uniforms, right?

Oh, my God.

The Fanatics, Nike,

Translucents.

Imagine Larry Brown wearing that shit.

Larry would be like, bring it.

I wanted a size smaller.

You know,

you have a lower thread count.

Yeah, it's not translucent enough.

I want cellophane, please.

I think, you know, it raised a lot of interesting questions about

what's important with the uniform.

I think we were focused on the wrong thing.

I just think the sport needs tighter uniforms again.

Tighter uniforms.

Tighter uniforms.

Go back to 1987.

Find me a Dutch Dalton picture.

Find Darren Dalton.

We'll just keep staying with the Phillies.

Mike Schmidt.

And there was no spandex back then, right?

Like, I mean, there was probably,

there's definitely spandex, but it wasn't in these uniforms.

Like, it's just amazing to me what, like, go to the steroid era, right?

Where the guys had, I mean, Canseco,

like...

Brady Anderson.

Yes.

Like, they were giving and they knew it.

Their bodies

were straining against the, and I'll use this and it didn't stop them at all in the double entendre straining against the bonds imposed upon them.

Yes,

rippling.

I mean, they were professional wrestlers, right?

Those guys.

What they did anticipate was that one day Don Zimmer would be thrown to the ground

while wearing

the clothes of the people doing the throwing.

Oh, my goodness.

Don Zimmer and Pedro Martinez.

Oh,

that's awful.

Oh, man, this is deep.

Because

do you think that would have happened to Don Zimmer if he were wearing like a fedora and a trench coat and a suit?

Do you think that really would have happened to him?

I feel like the uniform was an invitation to Pedro Martinez.

I remember thinking, God, this is sad

yeah 03 american league championship we couldn't find this guy a proper proper clothes because it didn't his uniform didn't fit it did not no matter what like whether he was too old to be in it is a separate question the uniform he had did not fit

and so oh man this is a really this is a great existential question to like come back to because i don't have an alternative suggestion that is palatable even with a shorter baseball game now.

All the options are bad.

Baseball is played in the summer, so you can't wear what the soccer coaches do when it's cold.

You can't wear a big puffy coat

and a vest and, you know, you can't wear a thousand dollar piece of outerwear.

Right.

Right.

So that's not much of a solution.

I don't want to see a polo.

These guys.

Also, have you seen these guys when they're not in their in their in their work attire?

Do you don't want them thinking for themselves?

Not Not with clothes.

You really don't want it.

We're in a moment, and we've been in this moment for almost for eight years now, like longer, really nine years, because I would consider Trump's considering whether to get in the presidential race part of

our slide into this authoritarian moment, right?

Where it's like knocking at the door of our democracy again

and really like threatening to like blow it down.

And I think that our distrust of expertise

and our

willingness to invest some

trust into an authoritarian

idea

means that for people who do not agree with that, you also don't want to necessarily be deemed an authority.

Leadership is not sexy right now.

Oh, there is a resentment of the institution as a concept.

And I think that the more an institution can align itself with its workers, its workforce, to remove the strata and hierarchy out of it.

Because at the end of the day, the players are making more than the people who

run the teams.

Yes.

Right.

Yes, this is also true.

This is why sports is an insane place to negotiate all of these competing power dynamics.

Right.

But it also is the perfect place because

it's a hot house and a metaphor and a microcosm.

And I just feel like as long as the people who are making decisions about where, which plays to run, like where people stand,

what move should be made next, who goes in and out of the games,

those people, I don't know that they need to look like the people

that they're pulling in and out.

Right.

I think that like we just have to restore some kind of trust here

so that we don't have to be afraid of a person who signifies

authority.

And maybe personhood is beside the point when we're talking about playing sports.

I don't know.

Definitely presents nicely on TV because you don't have to think about the people on the sidelines, except, you know, you watch the Knicks and you see.

you know, you track injured players, who's on the bench and what are they wearing?

Yeah.

You know, so there is some spectacle down there.

Oh, I mean, the spectacle is the point, though.

The spectacle is what's lacking to me when these guys are not trying as hard to present themselves as it seems like the players are doing at every given opportunity.

To me, it makes the event seem smaller

when Paul Blart is coaching on the sideline.

I don't expect the players to wear.

the made-to-measure Italian three-piece suit, but when the coach can and used to,

and I would argue now as I increasingly am radicalized into

this position,

I think we'd be better off

as a as a spectacle,

as a species.

Yeah.

Yeah.

If everybody looked like they really,

really cared

about what they're doing.

Yeah, I mean, but I'm sure a person like Nick Nurse or Tom Thibodeau would be like, don't you see I care?

I'm yelling the entire game.

I'm a human hemorrhoid.

I'm going to burst at any minute.

You're wearing a cardigan, goddamn.

What the f ⁇ are you?

You're wearing shorts right now.

I don't know.

There's so many competing forces here.

Comfort, trust, authority,

lowering the temperature on the different, on the like sort of striated differences between us.

Like we are all just people, so why don't we just dress the same?

It'll make things easier.

Right, right.

We're beginning to make arguments for why they have uniforms in Catholic schools.

Yeah.

Like, yeah, let's remove

it.

It's de-individualizing, right?

It is kind of, I mean, confirmation and confirmation.

Okay.

So, this is what I miss.

What I miss is the ability to look at a person, a coach on a sideline, forget about even the formality, which I am nostalgic for.

Simply,

I am

nostalgic for the choice that this person made showing up to this event, having had to decide what does festive attire mean?

I mean,

all right, I think you did it.

I think we're done.

I think we're done.

You did it.

Wesley Boris, thank you for

your notebook.

I mean, we're coming for you, Rick.

We're coming to save you.

Please, God,

before it's too late.

This has been Pablo Torre Finds Out, a Metalark Media production,

and I'll talk to you next time.