Revealed: What Jordan Poole Told Draymond Green Before the Punch Seen Around the World

Welcome to Pablo Torre Finds Out.

I am Pablo Torre, and today we're going to find out what this sound is.

So that means Draymond in this case is Yoda.

Do or do not, there is no try.

Right after this ad.

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Why do you have this show?

What's the point?

Because I want to find stuff out.

You want to find stuff out?

Yes.

By any means necessary.

Well, okay.

We should talk about why I've dragged you here.

Because the any means necessary thing is a subject that I think we should hash out.

So there are a couple couple things you should know about my good friend Ezra Edelman, the man that I consider my journalistic conscience in a very real way.

He is one of the most talented documentarians alive today.

This is not an exaggeration.

You might remember him from the five-part, eight-hour movie he made about O.J.

Simpson.

And the Oscar goes to

OJ Made in America.

Ezra Edelman and Caroline Waterloo.

Also, Ezra very rarely does media unless he is absolutely forced to.

He's kind of a little JD Salinger in that way.

And so when I begged him to come on my show to talk about a certain text message he received, a text message that could truly shatter the NBA internet, he felt a very real

and very unsurprising ethical dilemma.

So explain, just for the record here, why you are uncomfortable with me wanting to do an episode about this text.

Because it was a text that I received from someone I knew.

And next thing I know, I'm sitting here across from you in a public forum talking about it.

I am betraying the trust of said person who sent it to me.

It was

a theory about an incident that we all have seen and no one knows the truth of.

And the idea of validating this rumor and using it as a way of actually

getting more listeners for your podcast versus actually, you know, getting to the truth, if in fact that's possible, that is my issue.

I feel like this calls into question

in this day and age

with podcasts and social media,

how one actually and who actually

does the real work.

And as someone who takes that seriously, I

question whether I'm contributing

to this sort of

insane sports industrial complex circus

by talking about it.

You've agreed to sit down, and I just want to just

be honest.

Yeah, be honest.

Okay.

I feel uneasy.

I feel

trepidatious.

Big word.

I mean, again, when I think to about, you know, my own small history, like I worked for, you know, many years working for real sports with Brian Gumbel.

Yes.

What to me is the certainly the

gold standard, the apex of certainly television sports journalism.

It ran for 29 years.

It just last week was announced that, or two weeks ago, that this would be its last season, which really saddens me

because I think that is further proof of the sort of eroding of a certain sort of journalistic standard that exists, certainly in

sports media and in our media overall.

And

if I can be someone who talks about something in a way that like promotes the idea of figuring out a way to do things the right way.

Look around, Ezra.

And I don't know about sitting in a fancy podcast studio talking.

I'm incredibly impressed.

I'm impressed.

I'm impressed that you actually agreed to do this.

Honestly, we've like had a run.

So you together you'd show up.

You can't do that shit.

You can't sort of say, like,

oh my God, please do this.

Please do this.

Please do this.

Please do this.

Please do this.

And be like, oh my God, I can't believe you did this.

That's not, that's like, great.

I've been hoodwinked.

No, you've just been,

you've been guilted.

You've been guilted.

I should be stronger than this.

I love that you are weaker than this.

I should have been stronger.

That's all I have to say.

The backstory on why you're here, Ezra Edelman, Academy Award-winning documentarian, for my money, the greatest documentarian in America, former producer, real sports, guy who has done real journalism, is because we went to dinner recently.

I had dragged you there because I was telling you all about this Brian Davis episode that I was working on, reporting.

That was episode three.

Go listen to that if you have not listened to that.

I was explaining to you at dinner

how I was reporting this complicated investigation.

And And it centered around a text that I received.

But the point is, while we were doing that whole unpacking of my journalism, you yourself got a text.

You showed me the text,

and I have been obsessed with that text ever since I saw it.

Why have you been genuinely obsessed with this text ever since?

Because

it was

a portal into a story that has not yet been reported, but is at the forefront of the NBA

discourse.

So that was a very long answer.

It was a text about a rumor.

Well, I should say you, Ezra, are a Warriors fan.

I love the Warriors.

Yeah, unironically, you like are a super fan of this team.

Yeah, yeah.

I'm wearing my warrior socks right now.

You got this text from a well-placed source who knows things.

They knew you'd be interested in this rumor.

The text began: quote,

the Jordan pool quote to Draymond before the punch was

dot dot dot.

Okay, so just to spell out this initial part of the text that Ezra received.

In June of 2022, let's remember this, the Golden State Warriors won their fourth championship in eight years, cementing themselves as one of the greatest dynasties in all of sports history.

They had Steph Curry and Clay Thompson, two of the best shooters of all time.

They had Draymond Green, their most vocal player, their defensive anchor.

But now they also had

a would-be young Phenom, the team's offensively gifted and super cocky little brother, 23-year-old Jordan Hoole.

But a few months after the championship parade, this is now October 5th, 2022, the start of training camp for their title defense season, the athletic reported, quite vaguely, that a physical altercation, that was the phrase, a physical altercation had just taken place at Warriors Practice.

And the very next day, TMZ released released video of the altercation in question.

And it was

wild because we all saw Jordan Poole mouthing something to Draymond Green, who then walked over to Poole.

And then what you see is basically the Subruder film of the modern NBA.

Correct.

You see Draymond Green get chest to chest with Jordan Poole, and then Draymond almost steps back as if to charge up a punch in a a video game.

And it's a full body effort.

It's remarkable.

Like he flies forward with the right hand.

Yeah, it's a straight right.

Yeah.

A straight right.

And

Jordan Poole in this video

collapses to the floor.

Yeah, and the Warrior season collapsed along with it.

The video of the punch went viral instantaneously.

Obviously, it blew up the internet, blew up the entire sports news cycle.

But because the video that TMZ acquired and released was security footage and did not contain any sound, what Poole actually said to Draymond, the specific thing that triggered this multi-story collapse,

that was completely unknown to the public.

And it stayed that way, unreported.

But that didn't stop any of us, myself included here, from having takes.

Nobody knows truly, outside of the two of them, like why this happened.

This is a, I would like to hurt this guy punch.

I think this is as clean as you can land on a guy, too.

Normally, you don't land this clean.

There was nothing that Pooh said warranted what Draymond did.

Like, how about we blame the guy that punched his teammate?

Can we start there?

He had some personal stuff going on that had nothing to do with basketball or the team, and he brought it on a basketball court.

He was wrong

so draymond is a full participant in this industrial complex right and i want to point out that draymond himself is also a podcaster draymond has a show that's very entertaining where he like so many athletes orchestrates his own self-image draymond green did something that he never does

He spiked the episode he recorded about the punch.

He recorded it, he spiked it, he deleted it, and they never published it.

And in fact, they never re-recorded a podcast about it again.

And when we recorded the episode, I hated the way I sounded.

And so

we simply just didn't release it.

I didn't like my tone.

I didn't like the things I said.

I didn't like the way it came out.

I didn't like it.

It almost,

if you're not careful, it almost comes off as

unremorseful unremorseful and

distasteful, 100% distasteful.

The version of Draymond that was comfortable going on camera to talk about it directly came in this form.

I was wrong for my actions that took place on Wednesday.

And for that,

I have apologized to my team.

I have apologized to Jordan.

Quite frankly, if my mother saw that video,

I know how my mother would feel.

I know what her reaction would be, and I know what her next step would be.

And so, for that, I apologize to his mother and his father and his family, his friends that care for him.

So, notably, Draymond Green retreats from the world of podcasting when things get real serious.

Meanwhile, all of the Warriors, you may recall, they take Jordan Poole's side, which then led Draymond to go back on camera on TNT about 12 days later now to do like like the,

I might call it a little vast lean on the lens portrait mode introspection, talking straight to camera.

And then you kind of move to the why,

you know,

part of the process of why did this happen and walking yourself through why,

the different things that can get you to why

what took place actually took place.

He's daring us.

He's daring us to ask what the why was.

It's not great, it's not great because just he apologized as he should have.

He, by the way, should have gone to a press conference.

I don't think he took questions, but like that is the correct form versus going on his podcast.

Though, you know, obviously, it'd be interesting to hear what he said on his podcast.

I want to hear that deleted podcast, but yeah, like going and continuing to talk about it while not talking about it is not an answer.

That's that's just ego-driven, and um, it's unfortunate.

And so what I wanted to know was if anything else could even compare to this specific story.

Because the most common reference point for this story is the original punch.

This was Kermit Washington of the LA Lakers cold cocking Rudy Tomjanovich of the Houston Rockets in a game on camera in 1977.

But we all knew.

Why that happened.

There was a brawl.

With Draymond's punch, the new punch there was something else here

and this got us thinking about fighting words basically like what other stories involved a genuine mystery about an unknown but violently triggering quote some verbal act

that pushed an athlete over the edge

the couple of the things that immediately come to mind are one,

you know, I remember famously I'm a huge football fan, soccer fan, sorry.

That's how you know you're a real soccer fan.

You call it football.

Yeah, I had to, you know, come correct there.

The 2006 World Cup final between France and Italy.

Very tense game.

And the best player on France, Zenedi and Sidan, you know, next thing you know, you see something sort of off-screen on the right, and you see Zidane basically bow his head and head-butt Marco Madarasi in the chest.

And he goes down.

And the next thing you know, Zidane, the best player historically, the best player in the history of France, one of the top five players in the history of the game, just head-butted someone in the World Cup final.

And you're like, what the f

just was said to him to have this guy lose his?

What possibly could he have said to this guy to make him snap?

Right.

To take his beautiful bald head and level it at his solar plexus, changing everything.

And I remember watching this.

I remember watching that game live, to your point.

And I remember also the aftermath, because in the immediate aftermath, again,

there were rumors that, okay, Marco Madarazzi said something about Zidane's mother, right?

The quote that had been circulating then

was that Madarazzi called Zidane's mother, quote, the son of a terrorist whore.

end quote, right?

And Madarazzi,

he denied this.

He denied this to the point of actually suing British newspapers for libel, and he won.

Honestly, what I heard was that he said something about, you know, they played together at Juventus and that he said something about Zidane's younger sister.

But then in April, we finally found out, or at least according to him, he did an interview where he actually validated that idea.

You live in

America, right?

Yeah.

You know the NBA.

Yeah.

Trest Tolkien.

Yeah, of course.

My Tres Tolkien was

nothing compared to the Tresh Tolkien.

They love that in the U.S., though.

Yes.

And what is that?

I didn't touch his mother.

I didn't touch nothing.

He offered me his jersey.

I say, no, I prefer your sister.

The other incident that comes to mind is Roberto Alomar, former Blue Jay, former Oriole.

One of the greatest second basemen of all time.

Yes.

Comes from a storied baseball family, Sandy Alomar, Sandy Alomar Jr.,

member of the 3000 Hip Club, member of the Hall of Fame.

And so uncharacteristically, there is this incident where the next thing you know, he's getting into a shouting match with John Hirschbeck,

the umpire at home plate.

And then you see Alomar spitting at him.

Spitting at the umpire.

By the way, we've seen plenty of players and managers go toe-to-toe

all the time, kick dirt on umpires, throw bases.

We've never seen

a Loogie

lobbed, arched, propelled at an umpire's face, especially from someone who at this point we have never seen anything but the most genial behavior from.

So immediately you go, what the f

happened.

What could the umpire, by the way, the impartial observer, ruler of this game,

what could he have said to Roberto Alomar that would have incited such a reaction?

Because the reaction itself, this is the unifying threat here in all these incidents, the reaction is itself self-destructive.

To do the thing that crosses the line is to visit upon yourself consequence that surely no rational person in retrospect would want to opt into.

Which speaks to

our curiosity of what was said.

It must have been something really, really bad.

We should say that we never officially learned what John Hirschbeck said to Roberto Alomar back in 96.

Alomar would claim that it was something derogatory, but it was something negative, something touchy.

That's as much as we know for sure.

But all of these episodes, these episodes that are really, really bad,

they changed all of the people involved forever.

Which made me again think of Jordan Poole and Draymond Green

and

Cameron.

Yeah, you know, Cameron, the rapper, Killer Cam.

Cameron also had heard rumors, it turns out, about what Jordan Poole had said.

And Cameron

actually

said them.

He was saying his reasons Draymond punched him in his face.

They said the first day he told Draymond Green, you know, Michigan and Michigan State have beef.

Draymond State, Draymond Green's from Michigan State, he's from Michigan.

He told me that's already a lifetime rivalry, right?

Right.

He told Draymond, I more in Michigan State than you, than you went there.

And then they was running sprints a sun.

He told Draymond, don't worry about it.

You'll be in Sacramento next year.

Then he told Draymond.

That's crazy.

Yeah, then he told Draymond, why is your Twindle handle money green when you broke and you're not going to get a new contract?

And that's the one that broke the camel's back when you ended up punching him in the face.

cameron hosts this podcast with mace by the way because of course they do they're also uh alleged journalists

more money more problems so so all of that that voice in specific led draymond to have to deny cameron and mace's reporting to patrick beverly on patrick beverly's podcast you know like i said cam's stuff wasn't wasn't accurate but you know we know stuff that you don't say amongst men you know what i'm saying we we you know we know um

you know things that you have to stand on cam's stuff wasn't accurate but we know stuff that you don't say amongst men we know um things that you have to stand on

what does that mean

exactly right this is what i want to find out today and so you should know that in our attempt to find this specifically out we made calls right the question has been how do you take the unsayable gossip and bring it onto the record to make it sayable, to make it news, to make it journalism?

We made, here at Pablo Torrey Finds Out, more than two dozen calls.

We reached out to more than two dozen people in and around this story to attempt to investigate the text message that you got at our dinner.

And I'm going to unilaterally force you to reveal that text after the break.

If you're looking to add something special to your next celebration, try Remy Martin 1738 Accord Royale.

This smooth, flavorful cognac is crafted from the finest grapes and aged to perfection, giving you rich notes of oak and caramel with every sip.

Whether you're celebrating a big win or simply enjoying some cocktails with family and friends, Remy Martin 1738 is the perfect spirit to elevate any occasion.

So go ahead, treat yourself to a little luxury, and try Remy Martin 1738 Accord Royale.

Learn more at remymartin.com.

Remy Martin Cognac, Veeen Champain, 14 Alcoholic, Volume 40 by Remy Control, USA Incorporated, New York, York, 1738, Centaur Design.

Please drink responsibly.

The question that has been raised repeatedly now of what is the line?

What is the line beyond which you get f ⁇ ing decked by your own teammate and a championship season is ostensibly ruined?

That's a story.

And so here at Pablo Torre finds out, Ezra,

we are trying to do

what you think is impossible.

That's a story or that's rumor mongering.

Well, this is the thing.

How do we take the rumor, which is to you, unsayable gossip, and bring it on to the record to make it sayable and reportable and news.

And so we tried.

We really did try here.

We requested interviews with Jordan Poole and Draymond Green.

How'd that go?

They declined through the representatives.

A spokesperson from the Washington Wizards also told us, quote, Jordan has moved on from that topic, end quote.

They also told us that Jordan Poole, quote, would rather not dwell on it in long-form interviews, end quote, which I think at least you can personally relate to.

But this is how much, Ezra, I fear your journalistic withering gaze.

Because on top of Jordan Poole, on top of Draymond Green, on top of those reps, we also reached out to more than two dozen other people close to the situation, as they say.

We reached out to the following.

Andre Iguadala, Kavan Looney, Jonathan Kaminga, James Wiseman, Jamaica Green, Anthony Lamb, Dante freaking DiVincenzo.

Okay, we were recreating the whole Warriors roster here.

Then Warriors GM Bob Myers.

Okay, reach out to him.

Another person close to Jordan Poole.

Two other people close to Draymond.

Two other people close to Steph Curry.

Two assistant coaches.

A player development coach, a player personnel official, a team development official, a team attendant, a physical therapist, a security guard, an equipment manager, an intern, TMZ founder Harvey Levin,

and Zaza finging patchulia.

A former player who now works with the Warriors, Zaza Patchulia, we reached out to him.

This is a We Didn't Start the Fire level list of people who would not go on the record with us because this story

is,

I guess, too dangerous to talk about on the record for these people because it's too explosive.

I don't know.

No, but really, what does that say?

You reached out to 25 people.

They all said no.

What do you believe is the reason why no one would talk to you?

Do you believe there's a clear organizational mandate, which would make sense?

It says you never talk about it.

Like, do you think even people weren't talking to you off the record?

So, like, what does this mean?

I think it means that, on the one hand, yes, the warriors and the wizards both organizationally wanted this story to go away.

They have no incentive to dredge this up for our

yucks.

But, secondly, I think it speaks to the gravity of what actually happened.

And so, here we are,

right?

The moment of truth.

Because

Ezra Edelman,

academy award winning documentary filmmaker

stop saying that please

what did the source in your phone tell you that jordan poole told draymond green that got him punched in the face i don't know that i even feel comfortable saying that you saw the phone you saw the text so why don't you tell me fine okay here it is

You're an expensive backpack for 30

is what was said.

Say that again.

You're an expensive backpack for 30 is what Jordan Poole told Raymond Green that got him punched in the face.

So when you saw that text, what went through your mind?

I was electrified.

Why?

Because it felt like looking at the Ark of the Covenant.

Oh, please.

I'm not kidding.

I'm an NBA fan.

I'm somebody who makes a living based off of like following things down rabbit holes.

And when I saw that, I realized two things.

Number one, I cannot believe this has not been reported yet.

And number two, holy shit,

now I know.

It's a mystery.

It's an active mystery that has never been articulated despite everybody gossiping about it, despite it changing as literally the fortunes of a multi-billion dollar business.

This text, that line, those words, you're an expensive backpack for 30 is what we now believe is explosive enough to be the thing that set off Draymond Green.

How long after reading that text, in matters of seconds, minutes, hours,

did it occur to you that I think I'm going to do a podcast about this?

0.0001 seconds.

But it was because

I needed to track it down and I needed to translate this.

We still need to translate this, right?

Like you're an expensive backpack for 30.

Let's diagram the sentence.

30 is who in this case?

Steph Curry.

Yes, that's right.

Number 30, number one in your heart, Steph Curry, is the 30 in question.

You're an expensive backpack for 30.

Expensive.

Like, this is not like, oh, this is like Louis Vuitton.

This is Draymond Green making $25.8 million a year expensive.

And contextually, knowing that there's a lot of money issues surrounding the Warriors and that Draymond Green was going to be up for a contract extension after last season.

Yes.

And Jordan Poole was also going to be up for a contract extension.

Yes.

The idea of money was swirling in the the air.

It was the thing that Draymond Green, I am told, was actively worried about, insecure about, anxious about.

Draymond had told people, I am told, that he believed last season would be his final season in Golden State.

This was going to be his last dance.

And here was Jordan Poole, the guy about to take his money in the zero-sum game.

of Joe Lacob, owner of the Warriors pockets.

The thing that he had earned as the best defensive player and and anchor of future Hall of Famer on this team.

So expensive.

Backpack.

Well, I guess that means that...

It's a good line.

Steph's been carrying him.

It's a good line.

It is a good line.

Like, I'm now imagining just Draymond as an actual backpack here.

Like, being carried by Steph Curry, like, almost like, you know, like he's on his back, like Yoda, actually, or like a baby in a baby Bjorn.

How's your art department?

Can you come up with that image?

Oh, yeah, we're on this now.

Okay.

I like them almost like in a video game sequence together where Draymond hops onto Steph's back and they together like combine to punch Jordan Poole.

So that means Draymond in this case is Yoda.

Well,

I mean, look, like Yoda, Draymond clearly believes

do or do not, there is no try.

I do, by the way, do think the analogy of Steph Curry being Luke Skywalker is not a terrible one.

I agree.

He definitely does, is a practitioner of the Force.

He definitely is a force for good

in our league and in our world.

And I believe that in the end, he is going to conquer and extinguish the dark side.

I'm such a Warriors fan.

You're like an actual, you're an actual Warriors fan who I want to also remind that the reason now, journalistically, why we do transparently feel comfortable saying any of this stuff is because

we got another source to verify, at least that this is a thing that the Warriors are all talking about internally.

One Warriors official close to this situation, and this is real,

the person who did call us back, incidentally, that official independently confirmed to us here at Pablo Torre finds out, that this phrase, you're an expensive backpack for 30, has in fact been floating around the organization as the tipping point, the thing that set off Draymond.

But he does not, in fact, know that that is the thing that was said.

This is also true.

Do you believe that this confirmation, corroboration, information that you learned justifies us sitting here and having this conversation right now?

I do.

I do, because I think newsworthiness is, look, it's like pornography.

Really?

What?

You don't like the Supreme Court?

You don't like the quote?

You know what I'm going at, right?

I'm aware of the quote.

You know it when you see it.

I know it when I see it.

And this story to me clearly is newsworthy.

The idea that there is a line,

well crafted as it is, that the employers of these two men

have all heard and identify as

plausibly the trigger that set off the demolition of a dynasty, you might worry and argue.

Yeah, that's,

I would want to know that.

I think that is in the public interest.

So Helena Troy was the face that launched a thousand ships.

Is that right?

I believe.

Something like that.

What do you actually believe

is the real fallout of this punch?

What do you believe as we sit here a year after this happened, do you actually believe was caused by this one incident?

I believe that this punch is a crossroads.

I think this crossroads landed upon the body of Jordan Poole.

And this was where a lot of decisions

were actually made that affected a multi-billion dollar organization, nine-figure decisions.

It affected the championship defense that never was of your favorite team.

I mean, you tell me you're the Warriors fan.

You're the guy wearing the socks.

You're telling me that this punch

wasn't the most important thing that happened to this team in the last year?

It was the most important thing that happened to the team in the last year, but I'm just not sure that trying to figure out what was said that incited this incident matters at all at this point.

Because like the Warriors and the Wizards and Jordan Poole and Draymond Green, I would like to move on to this season, even though I'm sitting here and talking about this with you.

And the only reason I'm doing it is because I'm aware, one, you guys did your homework and you actually got somewhere with this and you corroborated the text message.

And that's why I'm comfortable sitting here and talking about it now.

Yes.

And secondly, I do believe that when Media Day happens next week with the Golden State Warriors and the Washington Wizards, that I believe the topic will come up again.

Yes.

So in that, I don't think the thing is dead.

So I feel comfortable as the person that is,

I'm not necessarily bringing this back to life or you're not bringing it back to life.

So I'm like, whatever, it's fine.

And by the way, no one listens to your show.

Not with that attitude.

But no, I get it.

Like we're doing a bit of a pre-mortem.

A pre-mortem.

A pre-mortem.

Yeah.

Do you know any other pre-mortems?

I've never heard this term.

It is a little, it's a little like hanging the mission accomplished banner on the aircraft carrier, admittedly.

Okay.

And we know how that turned out for America.

Oh, it worked out great.

It worked out great.

We did it.

The human question here is

actually like

a viable and fascinating one.

Because it's the question of like, why did Draymond Green react like this?

This was his why.

This is the why he never wanted to disclose that he deleted a podcast over that he never published and has never podcasted about on the record.

This is the one thing that caused him to snap in this way.

And by the way, like what I am told again, a little bit more reporting, is that Draymond not only believed that last season was going to be his last season with the Warriors, the team that drafted him, the thing that he clearly invested his own ego into,

and vice versa.

I was told that money is his biggest insecurity.

Like you're an expensive backpack for 30 speaks to an anxiety that he has about not just his financial status, but also his ambitions to be taken seriously as a

justified businessman who stands on his own two feet, who goes.

I mean, the one time I met Draymond was at CES,

was in Las Vegas.

CES is the consumer electronics show.

It's the biggest tech conference convention in America.

And he was there because, it turned out, he was hanging out with Maverick Carter and LeBron's business people.

I was doing a story actually about LeBron and his business empire for ESPN.

And Draymond was hanging around trying to glean the financial wisdoms that he could.

So money being as explosive as sex or any other insult, like, I think that is, that's kind of revealing about what it is that makes somebody tick.

Do you believe that

if the

media landscape, sports media landscape had been different in the mid-90s when Jordan punched Eve Kerr.

If it were a story at the time, if there had been video, if they as a team and Phil Jackson and Michael Jordan were forced to speak about this and answer questions about this, do you actually believe that would have affected the success of that team?

Yes.

I do.

I think, look,

one through line through all of these stories, right, these dynasties, how do they go well or how do do they go bad?

There's a presumption that they did it because of psychological fortitude.

You know, you're strong or you're weak.

And Michael Jordan is the strongest and he's the most resilient and he does not get bothered by any of this shit.

And Steve Kerr clearly was strong because he did not get derailed by this.

He made the shot.

But

they did not get tested in this way.

Why would I assume that they wouldn't be affected by it?

They did not live under the rigors of the test that now you and I are

part of.

Is it harder to be a professional athlete now than ever?

So this is, it's interesting, right?

Like this was an argument made on behalf of LeBron by Rich Paul recently on the record.

He said that Michael Jordan is not the goat because he never had to deal with what LeBron dealt with.

And I think on the level purely of pressures of the test, right?

Like I know Michael Jordan was followed around by everybody globally, and that was real.

Michael Jacksonian in that way.

But the internet did not exist.

I buy that.

I was going to say, what do you think about all of this?

I blame TMZ.

Like, I actually believe that

as awful as that incident was and as awful as the punch was, I think the video of it is the thing that made it.

I mean, I mean, this is a weird thing to say.

Like, I don't even know what as I'm saying.

No, but I the video of it, the publication of the video of it, made the thing which already had happened so much worse.

Yes.

The idea that seeing someone

exact that kind of violence on another human being, it does sort of irreparable sort of damage to in the minds of people who are watching that person do that.

It is a proof that, like, whatever we heard that there was a scuffle in practice or a fight in practice and Draymond hit Jordan Poole.

Nothing that could be written or spoken about could do justice to seeing that.

Yes, I believe that

I have an increased

empathy, maybe, when you think about as we're talking about Draymond and what would have incited him to do such a thing, because yes, he's a human, he's going through these things, he feels vulnerable and insecure.

Again, not justifying anything that he did, like far from it.

But it's interesting on the other hand about Jordan Poole.

You know, I'm talking about the idea of, well, what happens then ultimately when you get a contract

and how that affects a human being who's 23 years old at the time, and all of a sudden is a

multi, multi-hundred, you know, $100, $100 million.

Nine figures, a nine-figure player,

you've made it.

That has to with your psychology.

But getting punched in the face like that,

like even by someone who like, even if that person hated you and like, it was just the whole thing was completely unjustified.

There's no way someone

doesn't internalize

that action of how you got to that point and that someone actually did that to you.

And you're, and so that is like beyond

100%.

A psychology.

It's like, I feel,

it's like,

it's, it's, it's humiliating.

It's not just damaging.

It's not just painful.

It's emasculating, right?

Like, this is what Draymond is referring to when he ended up like apologizing in the press conference to Jordan Poole's parents

because he was sort of bowing at the altar of like,

even if Draymond believes that Jordan Poole had this coming, which I believe that Draymond believes, by the way,

I also know that Draymond understands

why this is

uniquely

shameful for both of them.

Do you believe that Draymond actually has been changed as a human being as a result of this?

So I don't know him personally.

I don't.

But

believe that what makes him great is what made him punch Jordan Poole in the face.

It's the hair trigger of

at any moment, I am going to summon something inside of me that feels unreasonable, unreasonably

amazing.

You know, I'm going to block this shot.

I'm going to make this pass.

I'm going to read a defense, set up the orchestra for Steph Curry.

And unreasonably

awful,

I'm going to get thrown out of a game in the NBA Finals.

I'm going to punch my teammate in the face.

I'm going to be, despite all of it, despite my resume, unimpeachable as the best offensive player on this team, I'm going to be a thing that my employer wonders, am I worth it?

Because I cannot be trusted.

And that lack of trust is also why he's special.

I believe it is the same coin.

The Warriors gave him $100 million, a four-year contract, $25 million a year.

I personally believe and have to believe that

they traded Jordan Poole for his arch nemesis, Chris Paul, who's basically called his arch nemesis.

I have to believe and I genuinely think that Draymond is a brilliant basketball player.

I don't listen to his podcasts because I don't listen to podcasts.

It's pretty good.

But he's a smart dude.

I enjoy when I see him on TNT.

I absolutely believe that he's evolved.

I think karmically, if you see that like, wait,

now it's like, oh, I got Chris Paul for Jordan Poole.

Like, it's not like the universe.

The universe is telling him something.

He's going to have to, like, he's going to have to take it into him, look inside himself and go, okay, if we're going to move forward,

I created this mess.

It's time for me to clean it up.

And if you're saying what you're saying about the fact that he genuinely believed that that was going to be his last year with the Warriors, I believe he has a deep sense

of his own,

of history in general, of what they've accomplished as a group.

I believe that it's the first time that they've lost in the previous decade or so with the whole team healthy with Clay and Steph and Draymond healthy.

I believe that they

have that thing, the mental fortitude, the will.

I mean, they're old as f ⁇ .

they're short as hell.

Yeah.

They have a arguably outsized belief in themselves.

They just signed Rodney Magruder.

Well, thankfully they did not sign.

Oh, I shouldn't don't say that because I don't want him coming after me.

We'll believe it.

We'll believe that now.

Yeah, I think that I do believe that this might be ultimately

a thing that if a rose can come out of the concrete of this punch.

Okay, that's bad.

I believe if there's going to be.

Wait, let me work up the metaphor for you.

What you're saying is that Draymond Green, it wasn't enough to be figuratively

punched in the balls by the backlash publicly.

Now

he needs to plausibly be literally punched in the balls by Chris Paul.

No, no.

I think what I'm saying is he's got to f ⁇ ing win a championship so all this goes away.

That's what I think.

And I think if he does, by the way, Zenizine Zidane, who was the aggressor, is the greatest player in the history of French football.

Roberto Alomar is in the Hall of Fame.

People are going to move past this incident despite what all these people are saying.

And Draymond Green, if he wins a fifth title,

yeah, I think it goes away.

And a fifth title with another prominent player, a new cast,

pre-Kevin Durant, during Kevin Durant, post-Kevin Durant, with Chris Paul.

Yeah, that's going to be his legacy.

Your socks are glowing.

By the way, but we have not, and you did not, despite my agreeing to sit here and talk about this, rise to the standard of journalistic practices to report this.

You have no source on the record.

Oh,

you're telling me, wait, hold on.

You're telling me that Watergate was not journalistic, Ezra?

Oh, so, oh, sorry, who's our deep throat?

Well, how dare you ask me to reveal my sources?

Well, by the way, if I can go back into the time machine to think about a story that took place before both of us were born, please.

Deep throat, I mean, maybe I've also seen all the presidents men a bunch of times, but they were merely directed

to sources to say, first of all, follow the money.

So they did, in reporting the story, Woodward and Bernstein, over the course of two to three years, end up going to these sources that they were figuring out a way to triangulate to actually get people on the record to talk about these things.

So do not, do not,

do not compare yourself

to Woodward and Bernstein.

I feel like I'm the Woodward.

Do you are you?

Do you want to be the Bernstein?

No.

You want to be the Word?

We're not a team here.

What are you talking about?

Have you gotten someone on the record to to say this?

To confirm this?

Well, certainly anonymously.

Anonymously.

Yeah.

And you feel good about that.

By the way,

I feel good enough.

I feel good about between the two of us, the validation that came that go, okay, you actually have corroborated a thing that makes it more than merely a text that I got on my phone.

I do feel good about that.

Well, this is where I'd like to take the opportunity to invite both Draymond Green and Jordan Poole onto this podcast.

Together.

Together.

Okay.

Yeah.

And in fact, if they agree, they they can both punch me in the face.

Oh, please, guys.

Please.

I don't know how much more of a sales pitch I can give.

So at the very end here, Ezra Edelman.

Again, for my money, the greatest documentary in Europe.

Please don't say that.

I love that you don't want me to say it.

Why would you say it?

I feel like you watch one documentary every three years.

So I don't think that your opinion really matters in this regard.

What I found out today,

we end every show by declaring what we found out.

What I found out today is that

Ezra Edelman

understands what I'm trying to do here.

And that's very meaningful to me, even if I only watch

one documentary every three years, according to his estimation.

Is that accurate?

No.

How many documentaries do you watch?

Are we really going to do this?

Yeah, sure.

Why not?

You brought it up.

Like one every two months?

One every two months.

Yeah.

And generally, what are the content of these documentaries?

This is a am I being interviewed?

Yeah.

For like, what is this?

What I do for a living.

What did you find out, Ezra?

I found out that you do have a conscience.

You are trying hard.

You are, you do want to do your best.

I do think that you have a

lot of talent.

Oh, God.

This is what, where is this landing?

What I appreciate is that you have enough of a conscience and ambition to an awareness, which is the same as conscience in this case, to have this platform, to have a podcast that in some ways is just

another

thing thrown on the trash heap of in the sports podcasting universe and try to do something that is unique.

and elevated.

But again, I like the idea.

As I said, I think I do appreciate the fact that, you know, there is a.

Say it.

No, just the string was pulled that you guys actually did the work.

Now, I don't think that.

Jarn.

No.

Jarn.

Come on, say it.

The journey that the journey.

The journey that you guys went on to get to some corroborating truth.

Journal.

Clearly, if you

call yourself a journalist, then you're not a journalist.

But you come from...

You are a journalist.

Thank you.

You are a journalist, Pablo, but clearly, do you feel guilty?

I mean.

Do you feel like what you do on this show is journalism?

I do.

You do.

I do, genuinely.

Every time you do a podcast?

Yes.

I believe that the standard of journalism that I am practicing is

horrifying on some level to the Columbia School of Journalism.

I don't know who the other arbiters of conscience are.

And prior to you walking in today, you as well.

But yeah, I stand by everything.

We have a, again, not to just toot my own horn here, but yeah, I believe that journalism is the art of withholding as much as it is disclosing.

There are so many things that we have not reported that I have found out because it doesn't meet our standards.

And yet, what's going to happen, I am 99% sure, is that someone is just going to aggregate the quote, pull it out.

It'll be fed to like NBA Central and it'll be like Ball Sack Sports and all of that stuff.

And

I don't even know how much traffic we're going to get to our profound journalistic meditation.

Do you consider yourself the Walter Cronkite of sports journalism?

Can you cut Ezra saying,

do you consider and just say you are the Walter Cronkite of sports journalism?

Yeah, that's really journalistic.

Ezra Edelman, thank you for being my journalistic conscience.

You're welcome.

And again, I stress: please find a better and more respected journalistic conscience.

Fair.

All right.

That's another week here at Pablo Torre Finds Out, a show that continues to spite David Sampson by continuously finding stuff out.

Because we are produced by Michael Antonucci, Ryan Cortez, Sam Dawig, Patrick Kim, Neely Loman, Rachel Miller-Howard, Carl Scott, Ethan Schreier, Matt Sullivan, Chris Tuminello, with studio engineering by Viridian Tech, post-production by NTW Post, a theme song by John Bravo, and also you can watch us now on DKNetwork.com as a TV show, on Samsung TV Plus, channel 1168, on Roku channel 254 now, and Zumo Play.

And hold on, let me monetize my child here real quick, and I'll talk to you next time.

I'll talk to you next time.

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