Share & Jailbait & Tell with Mike Schur and Jessica Smetana

Speaker 1 So the reason you're hearing and seeing me right now is because we have a bit of incredible news to share.

Speaker 1 Our show, Pablo Torre finds out, was not only named one of the best of 2025 by Apple Podcasts, but our episode, The Silent Superstar and the Rotten Apple Tree, which was, you know, the whole investigation and aspiration and Kawhi Leonard and the Clippers, was also chosen as one of Apple Podcasts' best episodes of the year.

Speaker 1 You can check both of those things out, the best shows and the best episodes list right now in the Apple Podcast app. So thank you so much for listening.

Speaker 1 Thank you for making clear what Apple Time, Apple Time actually means. And today,

Speaker 1 you are going to find out what this sound is. He desired.
He desired desiring. He desired being desired.
He desired desire itself.

Speaker 1 Right after this app.

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Speaker 1 Terms apply.

Speaker 1 So this is one of those episodes where I'm mad that we're taping it and I have to timestamp it. We're taping this at 11.38 a.m.

Speaker 1 Eastern on Wednesday, November 19th, because as a matter of just what I have been excited to show both of you,

Speaker 1 we are going to talk about the story that all of, I think, journalism and the media, political and otherwise, has been talking about. But are you familiar with the song?

Speaker 1 Oh, no. Jess.
What song? Smatana, Mike Shir. Just you saying that makes me, gives Mike's stomach hurt.

Speaker 1 I don't know if the world's going to know the answer to my question by the time that this comes out, but the fact that you don't is why I wanted to do this.

Speaker 1 God.

Speaker 1 You guys, you guys know each other. You guys

Speaker 1 passive-aggressively text each other. We're besties.

Speaker 1 Mm-hmm. Never actually been in the same room, but we know each other very well.
We've been in the same football stadium, though, Mike. That's true.

Speaker 1 We've both been in Notre Dame Stadium to see a Notre Dame game.

Speaker 1 Although it should be noted that I was texting, I was there with my wife and my kids, and I texted Jess about something about how, about the in-stadium experience, which I found lacking.

Speaker 1 She and I texted back and forth a number of times. And then only much later did she mention that she was also in the stadium.
And I was like, what? Like you were also here?

Speaker 1 My son was visiting the school in part because he wants to see if that might be a place he wants to go. He specifically wants to potentially study sports journalism.

Speaker 1 And I was like, it would have been great if I could have introduced him to a working sports journalist. And she was like, oh, my bad.
And that was the end of the conversation.

Speaker 33 Honestly, like, it's on my mind. I thought that you would have just kind of assumed I was there.

Speaker 33 And that's why I was texting you about it, but then I realized that that would be a crazy assumption because it was like the Boise State game.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Why? Why? It was very, uh, very Smitana.
Let me ask you a question, Mike. How have you explained to your son the story that I am most excited to talk to you guys about?

Speaker 1 The story of the journalist Olivia Nuzzie. Nuzzy?

Speaker 33 Nuzy? Okay, can I just give you a little bit of context here? I tried to look up how to pronounce her last name correctly before I came on today, and I went on YouTube, obviously.

Speaker 33 There was very conflicting reports.

Speaker 33 I was trying to hear herself say it I listened to Al Franken's podcast from last year to hear how he said it hoping she would introduce herself no he said newtsy and then I scrubbed forward to see what she said about RFK Jr.

Speaker 1 But I don't want to skip ahead in the Mike sureification of this story, which is both very, very funny and very, very, I would say meaningful from a like, what the f is journalism anymore perspective, the pronunciation I think Mike would write for her last name is Newsy.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's how I say it. I say Newsie.
I don't know if that's correct or not, but that does seem like the right way to say those letters associated with that person.

Speaker 1 Mike, can you explain what the story is? As a resident Hollywood screenwriter, what's the log line on this screenplay?

Speaker 1 I would say first that if this screenplay were turned into a studio executive, the first no would be like way, way too over the top. You got to simplify.
You got to strip out half of these characters.

Speaker 1 No one will believe this. I tried to make an organizational chart, which essentially turned into power rankings of like who of the people involved in the story.

Speaker 1 So, Olivia Newsy, and correct me if I get any of this wrong. Olivia Newsy is a journalist.
She's written for New York Magazine. She's written for a lot of very famous publications.

Speaker 1 I'll do this as simply as I can. She dated a long time ago when she was very young, she dated Keith Olbermann.
So, she dated and I believe lived with Keith Olbermann.

Speaker 1 When he was 50-something and she was 20-something,

Speaker 1 they had a tumultuous affair. That relationship ended.
Then she dated. Lizza was next, I guess, right?

Speaker 1 Yeah, Ryan Lizza.

Speaker 33 In his story that he wrote the other day, he mentioned that she had just come out of the

Speaker 1 he had helped her get her out of the Alberman thing, right? So, Ryan Lizza, a journalist for the New Yorker,

Speaker 1 and she they dated when there's like a 20-year age gap there. She was in her mid-20s, he was in his late or mid-40s.

Speaker 1 He was booted from the New Yorker for his own sexual misconduct situation that I'm not 100% familiar with.

Speaker 1 Later in 2024, Olivia Newsley did a profile on RFK Jr.

Speaker 1 and his long shot bid for the presidency and ended up having an emotional affair with him that was purely digital. Clarify, meaning like over the

Speaker 1 internet.

Speaker 1 He, of course, is married to Cheryl Hines of Curb Your Enthusiasm fame, among other things.

Speaker 1 But they had a pretty explicit digital affair, which led to the dissolution of the relationship with Ryan Lizza.

Speaker 33 We're getting very close to six degrees of separation from Mike Scherr here. I'd like to also

Speaker 1 as someone who used to fill in for Keith Olberman on his ESPN2 show, Olbermann, I've Yeah,

Speaker 1 I'm basically

Speaker 1 you're close to this too. I'm in a digital relationship with Keith Olbermann in a more just objective sense.

Speaker 1 So then, so that ends Ryan Lizza and Olivia Newsy's relationship. Also ends her journalistic endeavors.
And then she disappears. And then just a couple of weeks ago, or maybe a week ago,

Speaker 1 it's sort of like her comeback now, which is she has a glowing,

Speaker 1 maybe

Speaker 1 satirical, but maybe not profile in the New York Times. I don't think that was satirical.
Called She Did It All For Love.

Speaker 33 Can we mention who it was written by?

Speaker 1 Well,

Speaker 33 i forgot about this jacob bernstein the son of nora efron and carl bernstein carl bernstein's son yes that's right

Speaker 1 this is now our watergate as a related concern yes now nixon is involved to just drag in another disgusting politician

Speaker 1 it has all sorts of details in it about how she disappeared to malibu and she's been writing poetry and she drives around malibu in a white mustang convertible and so forth and this is all the precursor to the book that she wrote that is coming out now which explains all of this in great detail.

Speaker 1 You're not going to mention the title of the very, I would say, modest title of the book.

Speaker 33 American Kanto.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 American Kanto. Which is the reference, of course, to, you know,

Speaker 1 Dante, I suppose. And I guess.

Speaker 1 Or Bell Canto by Anne Patches. No, no.
Or Jorge Cantu, the former Tampa Bay Reyes infielder.

Speaker 1 The final blow is that on the eve of the publication of the book, Ryan Lizza puts a thing up on his sub stack or whatever it is that he's writing now.

Speaker 1 And it involves, it's called like How I Found Out, and it tells this story of like her coming home from covering this presidential candidate and notes from her purse spilling out on the floor, you know, as notes do.

Speaker 1 Can I read the kicker of Ryan Lizza's Substack post, which really did escalate the story from this is a thing that lives in group chats all across the media universe and its surrounding galaxies.

Speaker 1 To we need to do an episode about this. Because to quote Ryan Lizza, I was sure our relationship was over and certainly our book project was dead.
She had crossed a journalistic red line.

Speaker 1 How could we write a book about the presidential campaign if Olivia had a sexual relationship with one of the candidates?

Speaker 1 I looked at the date on her aborted letter to Mark, March 5th, 2020, just a few days ago. I called my agent.

Speaker 1 We have a big problem, I said.

Speaker 1 Olivia is sleeping with Mark Sanford.

Speaker 33 What a twist. He wrote this entire post as if it were revealing the behind-the-scenes story of the RFK affair, only to then have this last line twist that no, she had a different

Speaker 33 affair with a candidate for president that she was covering. And it is a also just a horrible guy.
Well, also, Mark Sanford.

Speaker 1 It's like, and it did have the feeling of like the post-credit scene of the Marvel movie, but instead of Thanos, it's Mark Sanford.

Speaker 1 And for those who had no idea who Mark Sanford was, that's kind of why it's amazing. It's just like, what the f?

Speaker 33 Mark Sanford. Let me read his Wikipedia subheaders.
This is my favorite game to play. Okay, U.S.

Speaker 33 House of Representatives, Governor of South Carolina, subheader, 2002 election, first term, 2006 election, second term, 2009 disappearance and extramarital affair, impeachment proceedings, censure, fallout from scandal, veto record, and then hiatus from politics.

Speaker 1 I mean,

Speaker 1 and now there's going to be a new one, right? It's, it'll be a fair personal life. Rumored a fair

Speaker 1 personal life. Mike's here also because he truly did create a character in one of his television shows based on Mark Sanford.

Speaker 33 Oh, I didn't know this. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 There was a guy named Councilman Dexhart

Speaker 1 who

Speaker 1 Councilman Dexhart was was a city councilor in Pawnee

Speaker 1 who

Speaker 1 was the bit was just that he was constantly

Speaker 1 having and then admitting to, happily admitting to various scandals. And it was based on Sanford.

Speaker 1 And the first time you see him, he's giving a press conference where he talks about how he's apologizing for this and he's apologizing for that.

Speaker 34 I wasn't just having sex.

Speaker 34 I was making love.

Speaker 34 to a beautiful woman and her boyfriend and a third person whose name i never learned it was wrong of me to say i was building houses for the underprivileged when i was actually having four-way sex in a cave in brazil it was based entirely on sanford who at the time we thought was the funniest version of those guys because the lie was so outrageous and and so

Speaker 1 like just so egregious he was around for the entire run of the show basically i mean that's a trustworthy man of god but we we cast that actor because he vaguely looked like Mark Sanford. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So basically, the spokesperson for Mark Sanford had to say to the press that the disappeared congressman from South Carolina

Speaker 1 was hiking the Appalachian Trail. That's where he was.
That's why he couldn't get back to any of you assembled Americans. And it turned out, yeah, he was just his mistress in, you know, Argentina.

Speaker 33 As one does.

Speaker 1 As one does.

Speaker 1 The thing about reading Ryan Liz's post, by the way, it activated in me like like the nostalgia for

Speaker 1 finally we have a media scandal worthy of the extremely internet adult brains of everybody who works in and around journalism, because these are two real writers. I want to acknowledge this.

Speaker 1 Like, frankly, until the excerpt from her book, which is excerpt in Invanity Fair where Olivia Newsy now works,

Speaker 1 I did consider her as a writer to be a very compelling and interesting

Speaker 1 person.

Speaker 1 Like the shit I'm doing for New York Magazine, Mike, as a matter of covering Trump and the campaign trail, all of it is irrelevant, especially because she was seen as something of a whisperer for these freaks who would like get them to say things to her that they weren't saying to anybody else.

Speaker 1 And now we have this context via Ryan Lizza, her ex, who also did political coverage for the New Yorker, the most like serious, hallowed of all of these places, you could argue.

Speaker 1 Yeah, she was sort of a

Speaker 1 like a

Speaker 1 younger, like sort of glammed-up Isaac Chottner in a way, where it's like she would get people to say things and admit things over the course of conversations that just didn't seem like they would be admitted to anyone else or spoken aloud to anyone else.

Speaker 1 I really liked her writing. I thought it was really fun.
It was a sort of intersection.

Speaker 1 It wasn't hardcore, serious, you know, political writing necessarily, but it was.

Speaker 1 political writing for the 21st century. Politics has become more than ever a cult of personality.

Speaker 1 And I'm going to find a personality and sort of like spend time with them and write about what I think makes them compelling or interesting. And she was really good at it.

Speaker 1 And now, you know, now you've got to go back and retroactively question all of the things you ever read that she wrote.

Speaker 33 Well, I find that difficult to believe given the recent excerpts of her writing that I've read. And I must admit, I was not really reading a lot of her work in the lead up to the 2016 election.

Speaker 33 I was not really working in media yet at that point. But once I was working in media, I realized she is sort of a media main character of a lot of newsrooms.

Speaker 33 I was working at Vox right out of college, and certainly her name came up all the time, but I don't wouldn't necessarily say I read a lot of her work.

Speaker 33 Now, since this scandal has broken, I have read excerpts from her book and even an excerpt from a story she wrote about Donald Trump last year.

Speaker 1 And I have to say, as someone who's

Speaker 1 what are you experiencing?

Speaker 33 Her writing is kind of bad.

Speaker 1 Do you have evidence for your claims?

Speaker 33 This is from a article about Donald Trump in 2024.

Speaker 33 I read this in Jeremy Fassler's Medium post about her, where I also learned that she was an intern on Anthony Weiner's failed campaign back in the day when she was a lot younger.

Speaker 33 But here is the excerpt. This is after his assassination attempt at his rally in Butler, PA.
An ear had never before been so important, so burdened.

Speaker 33 An ear had never before represented the divide between the organic course of American history and an alternate timeline on which the democratic process was corrupted by an aberrant act of violence, as it had not been in more than half a century, yet an ear had never appeared to have gone through less, except there on the tiniest patch of this tiny sculpture of skin, a minor distortion that resembled not a crucifixion wound, but the distant aftermath of a sunburn.

Speaker 1 See, here's the thing about that passage. When I read it at the time, I was like, this feels, this actually felt partly satirical.

Speaker 1 As in, it was like tongue-in-cheek. Tongue-in-cheek is a better term.

Speaker 1 It felt tongue-in-cheek because it was all about the dramatization of the performance of Trump surviving this near-death experience. I will admit, though, that what I saw as a tongue firmly in a cheek

Speaker 1 when she was being edited at New York Magazine, when I read the excerpt of her book, and books are famously less edited,

Speaker 1 it did

Speaker 1 seem to sound very strange.

Speaker 1 It sounded tongueless. It was just like, oh, this is, this is, I mean, can I read you the part of her book? About the worm.
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 33 Exactly. Do you want me to read the worm passage?

Speaker 33 Okay, I'll read this one then. I did not like to think about it, just as later I would not like to think about the worm in his brain that other people found so funny.
I loved his brain.

Speaker 33 I hated the idea of an intruder therein. Others thought he was a madman.
He was not quite mad the way they thought, but I loved the private ways that he was mad.

Speaker 33 I loved that he was insatiable in all ways, as if he would swallow up the whole world just to know what would be better if he could. He made me laugh, but I winced when he joked about the worm.

Speaker 33 Baby, don't worry, he said. It's not a worm.

Speaker 33 A doctor he trusted had reviewed the scans of his brain obtained by the New York Times, he said, and concluded that the shadowy figure was likely not a parasite at all. He sighed.

Speaker 33 It was too late to interfere with what had already vaulted from the sphere of meme to the sphere of screwy legend. But at least I did not have to worry about the worm that was not a worm in his brain.

Speaker 1 Can I give you the part that I read that I was like, oh, this is the other, the other thing? And I should say that this was sent to me with the, with the Twitter caption, did the worm write this?

Speaker 1 Quote.

Speaker 1 Like all men, but more so, he was a hunter. In a literal sense, he used not a bullet, but a bird.
It was not about...

Speaker 1 a chase, but about a puzzle of logic and skill that amounted to a test of his self-mastery. He was the mouse and the architect of his maze, the giver of his own pleasure and torment.
He desired.

Speaker 1 He desired desiring. He desired being desired.
He desired desire itself.

Speaker 1 I understood this just as I came to understand the range of his kinks and complexes and how they fit within what I thought I understood of his soul.

Speaker 1 Yo, that worm is horny, though.

Speaker 1 Well, this, okay, going back to this tongue-in-cheek thing, right? Like, part of what I think made her readable in my mind and what I legitimately enjoyed was that she seemed to understand

Speaker 1 that

Speaker 1 political writing was no longer Woodward and Bernstein, but was essentially a celebrity profile, that it was all, everything has just become a celebrity profile.

Speaker 1 And she had this kind of like faux poetic style that sort of put, it was like, yeah, this is how these people should be covered. Donald Trump isn't a politician.

Speaker 1 Donald Trump is a celebrity who is trying to run for office. And so the writing kind of in its, in its like glossiness and sort of like

Speaker 1 slightly over-the-top wrought prose matched the vibe of the country and it matched the vibe of these politicians.

Speaker 1 It's performative. Politics is so performative now.
And she is a performative journalist. And so it just worked.
Like I, that's why I liked her writing.

Speaker 1 I was like, yes, this is the kind of writing that matches what we're seeing in the politicians themselves.

Speaker 33 You've convinced me this is a good case for me recanting. My, her writing is bad.

Speaker 1 American recanto.

Speaker 33 Her writing is American Ricanto. Her writing is not for me, but I do appreciate if it is meant to be a little tongue-in-cheek,

Speaker 33 worm in head,

Speaker 33 what she's trying to go for.

Speaker 1 And this is now where it gets very like, okay, you're doing way too much, is that when it comes to her book, you sort of get,

Speaker 1 I think, a more performative version of what I used to think was like, oh, someone who was paying homage to like Hunter Thompson or like a Gonzo journalist who embedded with these freaks and came away with the ability to channel their voice.

Speaker 1 And now, when it comes to the voice being channeled, I think of an RFK

Speaker 1 and his actual voice. And I'm just like, what, what was FaceTime cheating with RFK actually even like? Who was she writing for? It all changes now in retrospect.

Speaker 33 And it is also the profession where you don't get a fool me once, shame on you, whatever. Like you sleep with one source who was running for president and you would think that would be career ending.

Speaker 33 And yet she lands with a cushy West Coast editor Vanity Fair job afterwards before the allegations of this other affair came out.

Speaker 1 And that part, Mike, is where I'm just like, as somebody who has critiqued journalism on the internet for years and is also apparently raising a child who's interested in the premise of it.

Speaker 1 I think that this is on some level both extremely funny and also infuriating. Like that this is how this actually happened in real life.

Speaker 1 Well, again, the last time I was on your podcast, I quoted you to you, and I'll do it again. It's your observation that shamelessness is a market inefficiency these days.

Speaker 33 You know, you know who else said that, by the way? Jeffrey Epstein in one of his emails about Donald Trump.

Speaker 1 Whatever. Forgot.
Yet another thing that Pablo and Jeffrey Epstein have. I was going to say, you and Jeffrey Epstein.
We're going to need to find that quote.

Speaker 1 I'll find it. Hang on.
Actually, I regret asking Jess to do that.

Speaker 1 Here's the moment from the culture that rang in my ears. Do you remember? I don't know if you saw it, but when George Santos, right after being expelled from Congress, went on Z-Way's show.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And which is incredible. It's an incredible 20 minutes.
And she says, Z Wei says to him,

Speaker 1 she's making a joke about like, how do we get you to go away? Like, what is how, what could we do to get you to go away? And he was like, nothing. You'll never get me to go away.

Speaker 1 And she's like, I think the way to get you to go away is to stop inviting you onto my onto my shows. Right.
And he smiles this incredibly insouciant smile. And he says, but you can't.

Speaker 23 Because people want the content.

Speaker 1 And I think about that all the time. And when this story story broke, you just watch the machine rev up.
You watch the gears heat up and start churning.

Speaker 1 And then like after Ryan Lizza publishes this thing, Keith Olberman weighs in from the rafters. And then other people write to him and they say, hey, man, maybe sit this one out.

Speaker 1 And then he responds to them. And you just watch as the eddies just ripple out.

Speaker 1 in every direction and it's just generating think piece after think piece after article after response after blog post after sub stack post and it will never end and that's what Olivia Newsy understands we are eating it up yeah the penalty uh such as there will be one will be effectively and I

Speaker 1 don't even know if it will happen right I don't know if Vanity Fair necessarily cares in its sort of reimagined state that their West Coast editor has had affairs with two presidential candidates as Jess's point that she was covering that she was covering as a political journalist i genuinely believe that we know of by the way that we know of only in part one of Ryan Lizz's Substack series.

Speaker 33 The next one's about Michael Bloomberg.

Speaker 1 The thing that would be the penalty is banishment from the industry, which can't even truly reward economically the journalist who would otherwise be conflicted about like, what am I going to lose here?

Speaker 1 It's just obviously economically the right choice.

Speaker 1 Not that she even planned it this way, to pivot towards being the main character who you then want to hear more from because what she has done is anti-journalistic.

Speaker 1 Like that is more financially rewarding than whatever job at any publication would be. And that's partly why all of this is both very funny, but also infuriating.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's the world of

Speaker 1 the internet where bad is the same as good and rage is the same as joy and anger is the same as happiness.

Speaker 33 And celebrity is the same as credibility too.

Speaker 1 Exactly, exactly. Well put.
Notoriety is better than quality.

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Speaker 1 The question though is like, who gets attracted to these jobs? Like, who wants to do these jobs anymore?

Speaker 1 And so, in politics, you have a very clear model for like the influencer, corrupt, very transparent fraud who just can ride the wave of attention towards something like actual power.

Speaker 1 In journalism, let's be clear, there have always been, I would say, ego monsters and transparent frauds. And

Speaker 1 some may think that I am exactly that as a related concern. But what's happening in terms of who gets attracted to be in media is now a function of what does media even mean anymore.

Speaker 1 And so the thing in Olivia Nuzzi's pre-political journalism resume, pre-working for Anthony Wiener, by the way, on his campaign staff, is the thing that I was curious if you guys have seen.

Speaker 1 Because she, as I believe Ryan Lizzett mentioned, was a child actor that was mentioned in his Substack post.

Speaker 1 But did you know that she also

Speaker 1 was

Speaker 1 an aspiring pop star? Oh no, they call me Jail Pay. Craving single walk of sunlight.

Speaker 1 A game I win, that word I define.

Speaker 1 A teenage queen right in front of you.

Speaker 1 Illegal dream killer to pursue.

Speaker 1 Not your girlfriend.

Speaker 1 Not the girl next door.

Speaker 1 Not your girlfriend.

Speaker 1 I'll give you just enough and if you want anymore.

Speaker 1 Jailbaked, I'm jailbase. You try to stay away,

Speaker 1 but you can't obey.

Speaker 1 Jail face, I'm

Speaker 1 jail face.

Speaker 1 You look, but you can't play because I'm jail face.

Speaker 1 Jail face, I'm jail face. You try to stay away, but you can't obey.

Speaker 1 I mean, there's a lot more.

Speaker 1 Oh my God.

Speaker 1 It goes on like that for a while. I'd like to introduce you to Livy.
This is her MySpace page that has been found on the Internet Archive, the official MySpace page.

Speaker 1 And Olivia, when she was 16, wrote a song that she released and recorded called Jailbait.

Speaker 33 Oh, my God.

Speaker 1 There's a deep textual analysis that I don't even think we need to do because it seems a bit obvious as to what it is. But the quote, bad things happen when you hear my name.

Speaker 1 Deny your attraction, but I've got no shame. 16 will get you 20.
Don't even think about it because, baby, I'm not your girlfriend, not the girl next door, not your girlfriend.

Speaker 1 I'll give you just enough, then leave you wanting more. Jailbait, I'm jailbait.
You try to stay away, but you can't obey.

Speaker 1 Is she in front of like a New York electronics store with the metal grate down?

Speaker 33 What is this? I think so.

Speaker 1 Is that what that is?

Speaker 1 But she's like, it's the closest she could come to finding a place that looked like a prison.

Speaker 1 I was going to say, because I know that this was done years ago, I can't declaratively say that it is what I think it is, which is a legal vape store in New York City in 2025.

Speaker 33 That's what it looks like. You need the geo-gusser guy to get the reflection of those buildings.

Speaker 1 We'll get rainbowed on this.

Speaker 1 But Jess, could you read her about page?

Speaker 33 Sure. This is on MySpace.
Yeah.

Speaker 33 The day that Madonna released Erotica, Erotica, the day that Andy Warhol made his first film, the day that Freddie Mercury sang his last note, the day that Judy Garland conceived Liza Minelli, the day that Britney Spears told you to hit it one more time, the day that Cher first met a sequin, the day that Candy Darling took her last breath, the day that Mick Jagger first stretched across the stage, the day that Pamela Anderson was introduced to silicone, the day that David Bowie sang Lady Stardust, the day that Michael Jackson first slipped on a white glove, was the day that Livy was born.

Speaker 33 Livvy is a 16-year-old singer, songwriter, and actress, a former Wilhelmina model.

Speaker 33 She has appeared in various commercials, films, television programs, and print ads since her start in the business at the age of five.

Speaker 33 Influenced by pop stars, rock stars, rap stars, movie stars, and tabloid stars, Livy is prepared to

Speaker 33 explode onto the music scene and dominate the pop world.

Speaker 1 She's in the proud tradition of all of these great artists who did stuff. But even in that, right, there is some like

Speaker 1 precocious cultural literacy that seems like it's trending towards being satirical, but also isn't. My view, this changes a lot, I would say, in real time.

Speaker 1 I'm recalibrating because now what I think this is,

Speaker 1 is

Speaker 1 the specific contemporary disease of everyone is a star. And that this is a person who clearly like craved fame and stardom from a very early age.

Speaker 1 And at 16 is comparing herself to Andy Warhol and David Bowie and

Speaker 1 Michael Jackson.

Speaker 1 And then when that when that mindset is like transported into the into the brain, into the career of a journalist, then it's like her goal is not to break the story or to or to like uncover the truth.

Speaker 1 Her goal is to use whatever the job is that she's doing. to make herself into the David Bowie or Michael Jackson or of that.

Speaker 1 And so that's the, this is the thing that a lot of journalist friends of mine have been saying, which is like,

Speaker 1 the divide here is that they were raised to know, to understand that you are never the story. And Olivia Newsy is clearly was like, how do I get to be the story? I am the star.

Speaker 1 I'm not the person doing the profile. I'm the person someone else does the profile of.
Well, look, I think that there is, there's a deeper conversation.

Speaker 1 And this is why I say, like, I think there is a bit of like new journalism, meaning like the school of new journalism that was more narrative in terms of like the magazine writers who came to power who were, you know, again, the Joan Didian, like we're going to imitate her and her voice.

Speaker 1 And that's going to be part of like the memes is like Joan Midian is a nickname that she has received.

Speaker 1 The point being. uh that that school of new journalism in which the author the reporter was also a character is one that i personally enjoy and have lately leaned into some right?

Speaker 1 In terms of like, I'm a character in this story too.

Speaker 1 But what this is,

Speaker 1 to Mike's point, Jess, to continue to read the about page, is something that is even more,

Speaker 1 I would say, like

Speaker 1 weaponized as the bio proceeds. A visual conceptual artist with an addiction to pop music, Livy has recently collaborated with international chart topping producer Roy Royalty Hamilton.

Speaker 1 Her piercing lyrical skills perfectly complemented Hamilton's in-your-face production, ultimately producing a fierce three-song demo.

Speaker 1 Creating a multimedia character for herself, Livvy has dreamed up immockative, E-M-O-C-K-A-T-I-V-E, colon, the life of a pop object, a short film series shot on the streets of downtown New York City.

Speaker 1 With her creative partner, visual artist Eliza Bren, Livy shows you the life of a loyal disciple of pop culture who has given up conventional life and engulfed herself in a world made of plastic.

Speaker 1 Livvy, in all caps, is a pop chorus. Livvy is a rock ballad.
Livy is a hip-hop beat. Livvy is the past.
Livvy is the future. Livvy is now.
Dot dot dot. And she's about to blow your mind.

Speaker 1 Pop gave me life, period.

Speaker 33 I have a lot of thoughts. So this is obviously the first time finding out about this.
character who then became this person who is a very famous political writer like we've mentioned.

Speaker 33 But my first thought in hearing just the lyrics of that song is we're talking about a person who's been in like multiple relationships with large age gaps. And the song is called Jailbait.

Speaker 33 And she releases it when she's a minor. And the lyrics are very clearly inappropriate.
Like, I'm not making any allegations or anything like that, but this is just a really uncomfortable.

Speaker 33 This is like past the level of like,

Speaker 33 oh, this is funny and embarrassing. This is like an an actual like crime that she's singing about.
And it's just very uncomfortable.

Speaker 1 I mean, but what she would argue, perhaps, is that this is art about

Speaker 1 crime. Right.
That I can make commentary.

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 1 But what you just pointed out is, I think, probably proof that we buried the lead, which is that it is one thing to create art in which you are like sending up the premise of jailbait and performing the theater of like what older men are into.

Speaker 1 Right. Only to then, in real life, use your position as a journalist to get into various high-profile age-gap relationships with way older politicians.

Speaker 33 Yeah, and I'm not alleging any of those are illegal either. I want to make that clear.

Speaker 33 As far as we understand, like all of including with Keith Olbermann, occurred when she was an adult. Absolutely.

Speaker 1 Absolutely. And by the way, as I always say on this show, when I talk about Bill Balichek and Jordan Hudson, like fundamentally, not here to yuck your yum.

Speaker 1 If it is a legal yum, that's just your thing.

Speaker 1 But when you see it in the, in the arc of this character,

Speaker 1 it's just like, well, this is a bit on the nose. Like, I don't think that,

Speaker 1 let's put it this way. If I was Mark Sanford and I was shown the MySpace page for Livy.

Speaker 1 I wouldn't feel great about what exactly is happening here.

Speaker 1 Even as the active, powerful man in the relationship, I am also somebody who should be held to every form of account on the basis of my hypocrisy and also my influence and power.

Speaker 33 Right. Oh, man, there's a lot to unpack here.
And I also, on it, in a much broader sense, not even just particularly about Newsy, but

Speaker 33 maybe we can't have Woodward and Bernsteins anymore because we never would know what their MySpace pages would have said when they were in high school. And it would have been equally as

Speaker 33 potentially cringy

Speaker 33 rap album. I mean, yeah, terrific.
Mike, Mike, what are your, you're, you've just been, you've just been a gay person.

Speaker 1 Mike's got into dad mode, I feel like Mike is like now thinking as a parent and he's horrified by everything.

Speaker 33 This is just shock. I mean, it was like one thing to find out she had a fledgling pop career, but then the lyrics of the song have really stopped me in my tracks.

Speaker 1 Yes, I want to walk on eggshells very carefully here about what this implies or does not imply. But what I would say is that you get called

Speaker 1 stodgy and old very quickly when you start talking about stuff like this.

Speaker 1 But I just feel like my philosophy of the world boils down to one very simple thing, which is that there are two industries that should never be for-profit. And those are healthcare and journalism.

Speaker 1 It's like these are two things that are just fundamental to

Speaker 1 the experience of living in a country like America or should be, which is that we should know what's going on objectively. We should be able to go to the doctor and not go bankrupt.

Speaker 1 forget that part of it. But as far as the news goes, it's like the whole point of this was, in my mind, there's a wall between the people doing stuff and the people writing about that stuff.

Speaker 1 And the wall will never be cracked or broken.

Speaker 1 And also, the people who are doing things, the politicians and the athletes and whoever else, need to fear and respect the people who are the journalists covering them.

Speaker 1 The authority and the power has to reside in the people who are writing about the news because that's how you get freedom of the press and that's how you get a well-informed public.

Speaker 1 And that has, first of all, the wall is broken down entirely. There's no wall anymore.
And also, the relationship is entirely flipped.

Speaker 1 And now the politicians are telling the journalists what to say and what to do and what they can and can't do. And that is just a very dangerous thing.

Speaker 1 And I know this is, there's a lot of tawdry tea being spilled here. And there's a lot of like, oh my God, can you believe this? This is hilarious.
Oh, my God, God, incredible. Ha ha ha lol going on.

Speaker 1 But this story in its own little corner of the internet is representative to me of like this massive problem of just like you get power, fame, money, and attention for doing the opposite of what you're supposed to do as a journalist.

Speaker 1 And I wondered what it was like to be a person who like cares about

Speaker 1 essentially honest reporting and to watch something like this unfold and just realize what an uphill battle we're all fighting if we care about this stuff.

Speaker 1 Look, my thing is, I am caught trying to do two things. One is see

Speaker 1 Olivia Newsy and Livvy, her former life as a teenager, as symptomatic of this larger movement and evolution in the incentive structure of what it means to be a person in journalism, which really is media, which really is just being a public figure at this point, as everybody is just, you know, flattened into just another thing, occupying the same space that like the rock is on your timeline.

Speaker 33 They're all in this like vague influencer.

Speaker 1 Yeah, just like when I go to things now, I'm like, it is, I'm a creator. Yeah, right.
We're all creators. Mike is a creator.
Jess, you're a creator. I am a creator.
Livvy is a creator.

Speaker 1 Donald Trump is a creator. We're all like people with like things that we want others to consume.

Speaker 1 And yet the other thing I'm trying to do here is figure out how extreme extreme is this character such that it is

Speaker 1 not exactly symptomatic, but is like this overwrought character that I do think I want to actually quote the press release

Speaker 1 for

Speaker 1 when it came to the announcement of her debut single, Jailbait. So according to the PR firm, this is another thing you guys have not seen,

Speaker 1 March 7, 2010.

Speaker 1 The headline of this PR release is, Livy gives us something to talk about.

Speaker 1 Oh, God. With the release of her debut single, Jailbait, Livy proves that it is still possible to shock, period.

Speaker 1 This is how the press release begins. And these words are all in quotes.
Offensive, vapid, frothy, bubblegum, outrageous, morally bankrupt, and undeniably infectious. Dot, dot, dot.

Speaker 1 These are just some of the words that have been used to describe jailbait and the not-get legal mind behind it. 16-year-old singer-songwriter Livvy.

Speaker 1 Quote, I know that people are going to hear the song once, see my photo, and immediately come to the conclusion that I'm a brain-dead blow-up doll like so many pop-tarts before me. And that's great.

Speaker 1 It's fabulous, Livby says. No intellect is necessary to listen to my music.
It's pop, it's fun, it's danceable. But at its core, this song is a social commentary.
Dot, dot, dot.

Speaker 1 It just happens to be insanely catchy, end quote. Then he goes on to say, though just a teenager, Livy has had some experience in the world of entertainment.

Speaker 1 Beginning her career as a child model at the age of five, she quickly moved into acting, ultimately appearing in a succession of commercials, films, and television shows.

Speaker 1 The camera exposure had a profound effect on the young attention seeker. Livy became obsessed with Hollywood, MTV, and subsequently with pop music.
Quote, I'm in a lifelong love affair with pop.

Speaker 1 It's a genre that's looked down on. People say, quote, you're not an artist because you're young and hot.
You make catchy music and you wear thigh-high socks, end quote. But that's the point.

Speaker 1 We're all artists on some level. It's just that not everyone has this insatiable need to act as a human mirror and push society's buttons.
Luckily, I do have that need.

Speaker 1 End quote.

Speaker 1 So that's March 2010, you said? That is March 7, 2010.

Speaker 1 So that's just for the record.

Speaker 1 One, almost one full year after Mark Sanford, a 50-year-old

Speaker 1 politician, admitted to having an extramarital affair instead of hiking on the Appalachian Trail and had to resign in scandal. I mean, put that into your timeline.
Yes. Yes.
Into your org charts.

Speaker 1 But again, you just see, like,

Speaker 33 yeah, like she's, she's like saying that she is creating a provocative character.

Speaker 33 So I guess maybe we shouldn't read too much into the lyrics and take any sort of meaning about her out of it that she is trying to push buttons, I guess.

Speaker 1 But I also also think that when you see the way it's promoted, even like the release of a press statement about your art being like, I am the mirror onto human society, declaring that at age 16 in a press release alongside this MySpace page, it just feels like on some level, this fundamental blurring between I am a commentator on something and I am the thing that is being commented on.

Speaker 33 So let me bring up an anecdote from when I was in college. I'm around the same age as Olivia Nootsi.
So I'm curious if this ever came up in her studies as well.

Speaker 33 But I took a number of like journalism broadcast classes.

Speaker 33 And I remember always hearing if you want to get into this sideline reporting, broadcast, journalism, whatever, and you are doing it because you want to become famous, you will not last very long.

Speaker 33 If you want to get into it because you like telling stories, because you like actually working, because you want to actually help

Speaker 33 people consume the sport or whatever the thing is in a digestible way and you like to report the news, then you will have a future in this because it's very hard.

Speaker 33 I don't know if that's a lesson that you can still teach people in college, that they will not be lasting long in the media world if they want to be the story.

Speaker 33 Because, as we've seen time and time again, this seems like a really surefire way to not go away in this industry.

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Speaker 1 At the end of every episode of Balbatoria Finds Out, we we go around the table and say what it is we found out today.

Speaker 1 And I think I'll start just because

Speaker 1 this has been an episode in which we are forced to, as the father of a daughter, I can't believe I waited this long to use that.

Speaker 1 As the father of a daughter, I am trying to be like very open-minded about what a 16-year-old young person.

Speaker 1 thought they were trying to do artistically

Speaker 1 and to then give them just sort of like this wide berth of like, yes, it is deeply embarrassing to be locked into a prison of internet-archived MySpace page that some podcaster dug up and then follow the trail of breadcrumbs towards a hidden sound cloud for the producer you worked on the song with, and then unearthed the actual song entitled Jailbait.

Speaker 1 It is one thing to do that. And in a vacuum, I would not have done that just because Olivia is somebody who was writing for New York Magazine.

Speaker 1 But when you see her life, I think, in the context of this ongoing art project, this like at its most generous, right?

Speaker 1 We could call it a journalism-inspired art project in which she is sending up and mocking the compromised writers of yore, many of whom had, of course, relationships and dalliances with their sources in politics.

Speaker 1 That's not new. She didn't originate that.
But

Speaker 1 if you see her, as this person, as this truly American figure who's trying to write and rewrite her own story to maximize impact and visibility and celebrity, as her 16-year-old self tried to articulate, you see this whole song, not as a thing in isolation, but as like the precursor to the ongoing experiment of American media in 2025.

Speaker 1 And I'm like, I think all of this is fair game. I think all of this is very funny.

Speaker 1 I think all of this, again, is infuriating because there are people who aren't doing it this way and they fundamentally are being left behind.

Speaker 33 What I found

Speaker 33 was the email from

Speaker 33 Thomas Landon, the New York Times reporter who was embroiled recently in this Epstein email dump to Jeffrey Epstein that said, actually, I don't think he or voters would care.

Speaker 33 Being effectively shameless is a pretty powerful weapon for a presidential candidate. And that was what I was referencing earlier.
And that brings up another can of worms about a journalistic.

Speaker 1 What's with all the worms?

Speaker 1 What's with all the f ⁇ ing worms?

Speaker 33 Journalistic sources.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Oh, but familiar.
Man, yes.

Speaker 33 That's an episode for a later day.

Speaker 1 It is, but just like what a source and the journalist in their private time do such that one knows the game being played and the other doesn't? Yep.

Speaker 1 And the question, Mike, I suppose, which is this really, that is, that is truly the beginning of another conversation, but like, who's being served there, right?

Speaker 1 Is the public winning if you're playing that private game? And that I think is also what this story is about, too.

Speaker 1 Look at the number of people that we already know.

Speaker 1 As we sit here, the Senate has voted to release the Epstein files, and who knows what has been done to them or what will have been redacted or removed or whatever.

Speaker 1 But look what we already know about the number of journalists who had this, like

Speaker 1 during Trump won, before Trump won, all the Michael Wolfs and the

Speaker 1 Woodwards and all of these people at the New York Times, and I'm sure other places who absolutely knew this and credulously wrote front page story after front page story about what's on Anthony Weiner's iPad.

Speaker 1 What are these Hillary Clinton emails?

Speaker 1 They were themselves emailing Jeffrey Epstein about Donald Trump. Like, that's mind-blowing.
And in at least some cases, we know for a fact, Wolf and

Speaker 1 Bern and Woodward specifically just save these things for their books.

Speaker 1 They save them so that when they release their private, the beneficial, economically beneficial projects, they have the good stuff. And the course of history is perhaps changed.

Speaker 1 And that is unconscionable.

Speaker 1 I do want to quote the kicker to the excerpt from American Kanto here at the end, because when I open my eyes, I see still the blur of colors, the flash of red, of blue, of white.

Speaker 1 I mean to tell you now as best I can.

Speaker 33 And scene. I thought I was going to end with her.
That's what the worm looks like.

Speaker 1 It's red, blue, and white.

Speaker 1 She was looking under a microscope.

Speaker 1 Oh, God. Jesus Christ.

Speaker 33 It's this song is shy. I'm still, I'm still.

Speaker 1 You play that one more time.

Speaker 33 I'm blown away. You We play that song one more time.

Speaker 1 I'm the most shocking. Shot go out on that song.

Speaker 1 Bad things happen to those who pray.

Speaker 1 A basic instinct to die another day.

Speaker 1 16 will get you 20. Lust criminally.

Speaker 1 Irresistible. That's why they call me.

Speaker 1 It's got a little, she went for a little gaga at the end there. You guys are just going to be walking around humming this to yourselves now.

Speaker 1 Can I just say, here's the most controversial take of the whole day? Low-key slaps. You know what? You might even say that this song, Jess, is a bit of an earworm.
No, no.

Speaker 1 That's why we do this. I'm so angry.
That's why. Yes, yes, that's why we podcast.

Speaker 1 Pablo Torre Finds Out is produced by Walter Averoma, Maxwell Carney, Ryan Cortez, Juan Galindo, Patrick Kim, Neely Lohman, Rob McRae, Matt Sullivan, Claire Taylor, and Chris Tumanello.

Speaker 1 R-Studio Engineering by RG Systems, sound design by Andrew Bersick and NGW Post, theme song, as always, by John Bravo, and we will talk to you next time.

Speaker 2 Hannah Burner, are those the cozy Tommy John pajamas you're buying?

Speaker 4 Paige DeSorbo, they are Tommy John.

Speaker 5 And yes, I'm stocking up because they make the best holiday gifts.

Speaker 2 So generous.

Speaker 6 Well, I'm a generous girly, especially when it comes to me.

Speaker 3 So I'm grabbing the softest sleepwear, comfiest underwear, and best-fitting loungewear.

Speaker 2 So nothing for your bestie.

Speaker 6 Of course, I'm getting my dad, Tommy John.

Speaker 8 Oh, and you, of course.

Speaker 2 It's giving holiday gifting made easy.

Speaker 10 Exactly. Cozy, comfy, everyone's happy.

Speaker 11 Don't wait. Shop Tommy John's biggest savings ever and get 50% off site-wide at tommyjohn.com slash comfort.

Speaker 36 This holiday season, millions of families will pack their bags, load up the car, and head off for a family vacation. But not every trip is going to be somewhere fun.

Speaker 36 The American Red Cross responds to about 7,000 emergencies during the holiday season alone, from home fires to natural disasters, providing families a safe place to go when the unthinkable happens.

Speaker 36 But they can't do it without your support. Please donate at redcross.org.

Speaker 32 An all-new season of The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives is now streaming on Hulu.

Speaker 33 Mom Talk started as a sisterhood and that's gone to flames. New secrets and lies are coming out.
This is going to be catastrophic.

Speaker 1 We're fighting for our marriages and the girls are just putting us through hell. They make everything about themselves.
I can't.

Speaker 33 Hopefully, this doesn't end in a bloodbath.

Speaker 32 Watch the Hulu original: The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives, now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney Plus for bundle subscribers.

Speaker 1 Terms apply.