Trump Sues Murdoch, Colbert Cancellation, and Coldplay Kiss Cam Fallout

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Your inhibition centers were damaged at birth, Scott Galloway.

Hi, everyone.

This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network.

I'm Kara Swisher.

And I'm Scott Galloway.

Scott, all I have to say to you is bubbles.

Bubbles.

Say more.

This weekend, I went to something called the Bubble Experience.

You know, the people who do the Van Gogh thing, the multimedia and Van Gogh thing?

They've done this bubble thing, and it was so much fun.

It was all these various various types of bubbles and like pools full of like bubble looking things and balloons of bubbles.

We went with friends and my kids and we had the best bubblishest time.

You really need to start doing drugs.

Shit like that was invented.

Yeah, for that.

That's what I was thinking as I was there.

I have to say it was it was a whole lot of fun.

I'm trying to do more things that are not digital, not.

TV oriented or movie oriented.

And this was very kinetic and very like touching things.

And it was was nice.

They're all over,

they're all over these sensory experiences where it's basically like the color factory where you basically jump into a ball pit and then decide they tell you that magenta is your spirit animal color.

And then you have a weird color ice cream and they charge you $85.

And

you just know what it is.

You know, it's literally like four kids in a dorm room their senior year at NYU who are so fucking high going, what's the easiest way we can invest some of our parents' money and make millions of dollars?

Yeah, but I have to say, it was utterly

pleasing.

It was, they did it so well.

And I have to tell you, Scott, I don't use VR very much, but at the end, they had a VR experience, also with bubbles.

That was the thematic.

That was wonderful.

It was the first time they had you hanging in chairs.

So you remove the chairs were moving.

I did something similar when I was in Amsterdam.

A woman named Helga held me in a chair.

It was very expensive, though.

It was very expensive.

Anyway, anyway.

urge people to get out and do things with friends.

We laughed our asses off.

Anyway, we got a lot to get to today, including Trump suing Rupert Murdoch and CBS canceling Colbert.

I know you have a lot of thoughts on this, but it's really hard not to talk about the Cold Play situation, the Cold Playing of it all.

The CEO of DataOps platform, Astronomer, I don't know why it was called Astronomer, Andy Byron, has resigned after being caught on camera at a Cold Play concert, having an intimate moment with the company's head of HR.

You literally cannot make this up.

We We had our own steamy date at Cold Play caught on camera, which people can see on our socials.

As listeners pointed out, of course, you're the small spoon, Scott.

Another communter said, I would let Kara swaddle the fuck out of me.

One more, someone said, Scott would be an awful head of HR.

He would have to call himself to his office on a daily basis for the latest inappropriate joke.

I mean, what do you think of this thing?

This was, this is a phenomenon, phenomenon.

Well, first off, I mean, distinct of all the humor and the

reality is humor.

Good humor.

The reality is a mother who trusted this guy who thought she'd found the love of her life and was raising children with someone found out in the worst way possible

that he's a fan of Cold Play.

I knew he had.

I knew.

I was like, where is he going?

Because he didn't care less.

Cold Play was a little bit embarrassing.

I have to say, I would agree.

I would agree.

Whatever.

He works for astronomer.

He was studying Uranus.

Oh.

Oh, how long did you wait for that one?

I don't know.

Okay, I'll be serious.

I'll be serious for a question.

I always go, I think it reflects something kind of weird about our society.

Shaming, I think a lot about shaming because I think a lot about depression and what triggers you.

And the reality is shaming is an important part of our society.

And that is to be shamed is meant to restore the social fabric.

You are not supposed to.

beat up children in your tribe.

And if you do, you are shamed.

And there's a good reason for it.

It's meant to create cohesion and a more civil,

you know, civil community and species.

The problem is now we have industrialized shame and we use it for entertainment.

And in my opinion, a lot of what was meant to be shaming was meant to restore fabric.

It's cutting out our fabric now.

And that is, there's just too much economic incentive to shame people.

Also on a more meta level, I find there's an industrial shaming complex is essentially a form of...

mini revolution because essentially you're always they're always shaming rich white people because people are so pissed off that CEOs are now making 300 times the average salary, not 30.

And let me just go to a very tactical level here.

We deal with this all the time on boards because

men will mistake kindness for sexual interest and women mistake sexual interest for kindness.

There is always a mismatch instinctively.

Men, when they get to a certain level, start believing that that woman is interested in me.

And this is, you know, reportedly.

She seemed interested in him, but go ahead.

Right.

And it happens, and a lot of times it's consensual, but the approach, and I think this is the right one that a bunch of the boards I've been on, is that below a certain level,

consensual relationships, of which are 99% at work, one in three relationships begin at work, are a wonderful thing.

There's been eight marriages at my companies.

I think it's a wonderful thing.

Above a certain level, executive level, and you have to, in my opinion, need to predetermine it, your fly is up and locked.

This guy, in my opinion, was guilty the moment that happened.

Because when you get to a certain level of power, people will start treating you differently and you create a power asymmetry, which usually men are more predisposed to abusing.

And it creates too much risk for the organization.

So in sum.

Let's be honest, he didn't resign.

He was fired.

The board immediately met, had a conversation, said he's out.

And then he got that call saying, we think we're going to make a change.

We think it's best if you resign.

And he agreed.

I know.

That's, that happens a lot in these companies.

Trust me, covering them.

But it's always someone like that.

But what, I mean, in the case of one big tech company, the chief counsel had a baby with someone at the company.

Yeah, Google?

Yeah, this would be it.

You mean Tinder, which was the tech community?

Yeah, they do that all the time.

One time, a friend of a friend of mine who was working got a job, I think, at Facebook at the time, or it went to a small company from Facebook or something like that.

And I said, Well, what's your job?

She goes, My job is the department of stopping people from fucking each other.

And I was like, Oh, okay, good job.

But here's the thing in this case, beyond that, and that's the obvious issue here from a corporate point of view.

One, when you go to concerts now or anywhere, you are, you should have not, no expectations of privacy with all the cameras, with everything being recorded.

And by the way, a Kiss Cam is sort of the least of the technologies, right?

Like Kiss Cams have been around forever.

So have like pranking people, like those TV, remember those TV shows where they always like candid camera, like, right?

This is not a new, fresh thing.

And sometimes candid camera resulted in really terrible things, right?

Things like this.

So I don't think it's a new and fresh thing.

I think what it is, is that the ability for it to go viral in the most profound way is really what's different.

I don't, I think we've been shaming people for a long time using technology.

Prank phone calls, again, candid camera back in the day and things like that.

So I'm not so sure sure they should have gone to this concert as a couple, which was problematic at the company and

thought people might not see them, right?

That was sort of the arrogance of it more than anything.

The internet did do an amazing job with funny stuff.

That was for sure, like putting Betty and Veronica together or Fred Flintstone and Betty or Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump or Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein.

So some of those were quite funny, right?

I think the funniest thing is now at every sporting venue across the world, when anyone, the Kiss Ken goes anywhere, they all dive like they're being found out.

Yeah, that was funny.

Those are good.

But there's,

let me ask you this.

And this is one of the things that always struck me about a certain level of fame.

How many people a day would you say recognize you?

Seven to 10 now.

No, I'm sorry, seven to 10 come up to you.

Yes, so lots of people recognize me.

Yeah.

Okay.

So I'm aware of it.

Okay.

This is what that means.

And I think about this a lot.

Supposedly for every person that comes up to you, 100 people recognize you and don't come up to you.

Because think about how many people you recognize.

Yeah.

And you don't, but and how many you actually go up to.

I recognize in Soho, I see people, I see dozens of people every day.

I either know them professionally, but I never go up to someone or very rarely go up to them.

So if you, if seven people are coming up to you, That means that day, 700 people recognized you.

And I think about that and it freaks me out because what I feel like now is I have a security camera everywhere.

Right.

Wherever I am.

And you see it, right?

I'll be at a restaurant and I look over and I see someone looking at me and I'm like, that's more than a glancing phase.

They're trying to put together how they know me.

And some of it is bad because you feel like you lose a little bit of your anonymity.

But I also think it's not a bad thing

to just be thinking, okay, I need to equip myself well because I do.

I act better.

I have to say.

Do you act better?

I was getting coffee the other day.

I think I'm nicer.

I'm nicer.

I'm so nice.

I'm like, do you want a picture?

Would you like, because they're sitting there with their camera.

We're not like really big celebrities, but I think people really do know us because literally, especially after when your dad died, people really reached out.

I had a lot that week.

But I had two people come up to me in one coffee thing.

And I thought.

Other people know who I am here.

Right.

And so

what I do is I behave better.

I'm incredibly polite.

When I have my kids with with me, I'm very nice to my children.

Like, I don't like chastise them.

I'm like, like, sometimes when your kids drive you crazy, you're like, will you please sit down?

I don't do that, which is interesting.

So I've stopped hitting my kids.

I hate that.

That's a real bummer.

Oh, no.

You know, I think nicer.

I think I'm nicer in public because I'm aware that just one picture of me being a Karen or something, I don't want that to happen.

It'll go everywhere.

I agree.

I'm not usually like that, but that.

But it's so strange what the the algorithms and the public pick up on because more is known about these two people now than the guy who was killed trying to assassinate Trump.

I mean, it's just weird what we find fascinating.

These people literally, you want to talk about the earth moving beneath your feet?

Can you imagine?

This is for the rest of their life.

This is how those people, these people, what these people are known for.

Whenever they move to a new community, they get remarried and they're joining a tennis club.

They're showing up for a game of doubles.

And this woman, this is like, oh, remember that?

That's this woman.

They have just marked their brands for the rest of their lives.

They did do the move, though.

I think they didn't, you know, they could have done a lot of things, but their move was so dramatic at the same time, like we're hiding.

And then allowed Chris Martin to say what he said, right?

It all came together because they did the duck and cover.

And then Chris Martin said they're either having an affair or they're shy, but he first said they're either having, uh-oh, uh-oh.

Like he kind of set it up.

Like, imagine being him.

And who's the camera guy like it's all those kind of things i'm fascinated by was it good for pr at all for the company or not that's it you know what that's a really interesting question because one of the biggest components of branding now is just awareness had you ever heard of a firm named astronomer before i thought it was an astronomy thing like i didn't know it was what it was i had some sort of ai thing in a weird way this look this was bad for the two of them in a weird way i would argue this is good for shareholders of the company Yeah.

Well, everybody knows this company now.

It's true.

It's true.

I think I met this guy many years ago when he was at Fuse.

I think he was at Fuse.

I feel like I met him when I saw him.

I'm like, but he looks like a lot of tech CEOs, like to me.

I was like, oh, that guy.

I don't know him.

I know him.

I don't know him really well, but he gives great head.

How did I go there?

How did I go there?

How did I go there?

How am I going to make this transition then?

Whenever I know when it's time for me to leave a CEO, when we get a CFO or a head of HR, then I'm like, I'm out.

And then the, but our company gets acquired, right?

And of course, there's this new global head of HR.

On fucking Friday at 6 p.m., first week after the deal closes, I get a call from the global head saying, hi, this is Lisa whatever, head of global HR.

I need to speak to you urgently.

Oh, no.

I mean, I'm there.

It's been five days and I'm already in trouble.

Yeah.

So I call her back and start emailing her and she doesn't get back to me until Monday at 10 a.m.

Which, by the way, is a great weekend.

That's a great weekend.

When the head of HR calls you and says, call me immediately.

I hate when people do that in general.

I need to talk to you urgently, but then don't.

And then you don't talk to them.

Anyway, so she calls me back.

And at this point, the check is cleared.

So I can be fairly forward.

And I'm like, and I said to her, I'm like, how do you think my weekend was?

Right.

How do you think?

What do you think?

It was very simple.

We have these all hands.

And that Monday, we had an all-hands.

And we always go around and everyone talks talks about what they're doing.

And we introduce the new people.

And I say, I open it up for questions.

And one of the, one of the newbies goes, I'm brand new.

What is he's like, I'm just curious, what is the vacation policy?

And I said, the vacation policy is when you're new, you don't ask what the fucking vacation policy is.

Wow, good thing they.

And, and the whole, and I said, I'm kidding.

Lisa, who's your manager, will tell you what it is.

And she called me and said, you can't ever discourage people from taking vacation.

And that's what you are doing.

And I said, I said, I understand.

By the way, I need to leave Gartner immediately.

Yes.

Oh, my God.

You're calling me on this.

You're a fucking joke.

Because you know what?

I usually do it in all hands, Karen.

I usually say, look.

Many of you may have realized I was out for a week.

I was in a terrible accident and my inhibition sensors were deeply damaged.

So there's going to be some locker room talk, some inappropriate touching, but I hope you are patient with me on my journey.

No.

I love that.

My inhibition sensors have been damaged.

There's going to be.

Your inhibition centers were damaged at birth, Scott Galloway.

There's going to be inappropriate.

You don't even have the sensors.

I hope you help me on my journey.

You have zero sensors.

Let me tell you my story.

One time, when I was at the New York Times, I had tweeted something about some terrible experience on United, which, by the way, I'm a global services person there now.

Someone from the New York Times, pretty high up on the friggin masthead, was like, we think this looks like you're asking for something from United, which I wasn't.

I was just griping, like like my usual gripery.

And I was like, No, I'm not.

I don't want well, they could because we're the New York Times.

I said, Well, I don't work for you.

So I they're like, We'd like you to take it down.

And I'm like, Uh, no.

And they're like, Yeah, but we want you to take it down.

I go,

No.

And I finally was like, You are a person on the masthead and you're spending your weekend yelling at me about a tweet of which I refuse to take down because I think what you're saying is ridiculous.

That's that's why I like being independent.

I'm just telling you, this is why I can, I'll take that and raise you 50.

I'm booked to do a TV show for Bloomberg Television.

They're going to go on original TV.

Classic.

And I do these TV shows.

It's COVID.

We sell out advertising for this thing.

We have five shows in the can.

The guy in charge, the producer, says, Can you do some promos?

I'm like, no problem.

Go into my studio, flip on the lights.

I do a promo, including one where I'm the construction worker from the guy from the village people.

You can find it, folks, on the internet.

Without my shirt, I talked about, you know, my favorite one night

that I'm a construction worker.

My, I'm, and my favorite one night stand is called the nut and bolt.

Yeah.

And

I, and then I just tweet these things out.

I don't ask them for permission.

I just tweet them out.

And I say, here comes the show.

And the producer calls me back and goes, we're horrified, but this is exactly what we need.

They liked it.

And then the next day he calls me and says, basically says, Houston, we have a problem.

Oh, because I'm not going to do that.

And what had just happened is Bloomberg.

Well, Bloomberg had just had a guy sitting around a round table inviting interns over when he was in a bathrobe open.

And then they'd had another person groping people in the lunchroom or whatever.

So they were very understandably sensitive to anything.

And some of the journalists found it offensive.

And so he called, he called me.

I remember I was at the Beverly Hills a day.

He called me and said, I need you to do two things.

One, I need you to tweet out that we didn't know you were doing this.

And I'm like, and I'm like, no problem, you didn't.

I did this on my own.

And he said, and the second thing is I need you to apologize.

I'm like, nope, I'm not sorry.

I don't, I, I don't, I don't think this is any way sexist.

And if I apologize, it's going to do me no good and you no good.

So the truth has a nice dream to it, but I'm not apologizing.

And they came back with a list of, they said, okay, we can get through this.

And they came back with a list of things I couldn't do.

And my favorite was no sex jokes, no ex whatevers.

But for some reason, they added in there, you can never mention Cheryl Samberg.

I thought that was so weird.

What?

Yes.

They They came back with 12 things.

They're like, we're going to get through this, but there are these things you can't do.

Oh, I know.

Oh, I did.

My other one, like number nine was, you can't reference your erectile dysfunction ever again.

They came back with 12 random things, but my favorite was you can never mention Cheryl Sandberg.

Cheryl Samberg.

And your erect.

And I called them back, true story.

And I said, you know what?

I called my team into a room and I said, this is what they want us to do.

And this is going to be great for us.

And we've sold advertising.

And I was kind of ready to sign up for it.

And the team said, fuck it.

Let's let our freak flag fly.

Let's not do it.

And I called the guy back and said, this is a true story.

I said, there's not a fit here.

Let's fold our tent.

We did five goddamn shows and they never made, they never saw the light of day.

Five shows.

Can I just say, who stuck with you during that time?

That's right.

You stood by me.

I stood by me.

You stood by your man.

I did.

And then

it's ridiculous.

And do I let you do erectile dysfunction?

Do I let you reference shoes?

100%.

Never going to get in the Scotts jam.

That's right.

Anyway, let's move on because this is interesting because we like being independent.

And this is why CBS insists the decision to cancel the late show with Stephen Colbert was purely financial and had nothing to do with the other matters happening at Paramount, which is acquiescing Donald Trump and paying him a bribe.

Colbert broke the news last week that his show would end next May.

This was just days after calling Paramount's $16 million settlement with Trump a big fat bribe, which is accurate.

Also worth noting, Skydance CEO David Ellison met with Trump-appointed FCC chair Brandon Carr earlier in the week.

I'm not sure those things were related, but because he's in the middle of a merger.

The Writers Guild of America is calling for an investigation calling the cancellation appears to be a bribe to curry favor with the Trump administration to

pass this merger.

Senators Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren are also questioning the timing and motivation of the decision without proof.

I'm going to be pretty fair here because

I don't know what's going on.

What do you think is happening?

There were reports, which we all know about.

They acknowledge the financials.

Ad revenue for Colbert has dropped 40% since 2018.

The show had reportedly been losing $40 million a year.

I'm not sure I believe those numbers.

I think it's not making as much money and the salaries are high

and late night is declining.

No question.

The other shows,

obviously Kimmel and Fallon allegedly lose money.

I don't know.

And I don't know if they're figuring in ancillary things or whatever.

They may just be doing a, I don't, I'd like to see the actual numbers myself before they make that claim.

Daily Show airs on Comedy Central, which is also owned by Paramount, but the others, Fallon and others, and Seth Meyers.

Seth Meyers had to get rid of the band, I think, in order to keep going.

COVID hit these shows very hard, and so did

the fracturing of the monoculture that we used to have.

Now everybody could do this and are.

listened to by more people than the, I think he had 2.4 million people watching him,

which is a hefty sum, but still the economics weren't weren't right, apparently.

Your thoughts?

Well, first off, the Writers Guild Association should announce an investigation about how they could be so fucking stupid as to go on strike for five and a half months from a position of total weakness.

But anyways, okay.

This is a situation where I merely thought, all right, another example of our slow descent into fascism as the president puts pressure on media and attempts to leverage his FTC or DOJ approval

in exchange for getting rid of a critic.

I did the research and I think I'm wrong.

I really do think this was a financial decision.

If you look at the numbers, 2018, late night TV was 400 million in advertising.

It's gone to 200 million.

So in half, yep.

Supposedly the numbers on this show is it costs 100 million to produce and it makes 60 million.

It's losing 40 million a year.

Do you know how many people work on Colbert?

Do you know how many professionals they have?

200.

So just let me,

I never missed an opportunity to pat ourselves on the back, but let's compare the economics of our universe versus theirs.

Pivot and the profit universe will do somewhere between 20 and 25 million next year.

I would say we have between, let's call it 15

at the most, 15 full-time employees.

Well, there are some people at Vox on our ads.

I have a bunch of people doing.

Yeah, you're right.

You're right.

Let's call it 15 people.

200 people at 60 million is $300,000 per employee.

We're doing $1.5 million per employee and we're growing 20% a year.

They're doing $300,000 per employee and shrinking 20% a year.

And this is what I think happened, Kara.

I think Skydance, and I've been a part of this, when they acquired the company,

they have not yet acquired the company.

But during diligence and to get the deal closed, part of the conditions on closing are like, look, you've got some problems here, including one

show that is losing $40 million.

We don't want to be the bad cops who come in and fire all these people.

You need to do it.

And so I think David Ellison.

I'm guessing.

That's what I'm guessing.

David Ellison said.

Yeah, David Ellison said, look, and this is as a function of closing.

You want the existing management team to do all the dirty work.

You don't want to show up and be the bad guys.

Yeah, they may stay the management teams also.

So they want to curry favor with the new owners, presumably.

It happened at CNN.

Remember David Zazlov cut?

You remember CNN Plus, Scott?

I do, yes.

Very well.

Speaking of more shows that were canceled.

Remember when I didn't sign and I said they're going to cut it?

And you were like, no, they're not.

And I was like, yes, they are.

Because that was another television.

Yes, yeah.

Name of Bright Lights.

But I generally think this, this isn't the end of the Colbert show, Kara.

This is the end of late-night television.

Late night television.

He'll be fine, I think.

I think he'll do well in this medium.

Oh, he's a remarkably talented person.

He's remarkably talented.

But this is a shitty business.

America used to gather around the TV late.

It was the last thing they did.

Now

they don't.

And in addition, let's look at the numbers.

4 million people were watching pre-COVID, 2.4 million now.

And even worse than that, only 10% is in the core demographic.

It's all old people.

It's only about a quarter of a million people in the 18 to 54, which is the only people that advertisers want to reach.

Do you realize this, what we're on today will reach as many people in the core demographic as Colbert show, but he's taking 200 people to do it.

So now what might have happened is in terms of politically, he probably, his revenues declined faster than Fallon or Kimmel because he was seen as being especially political.

And the reason why Raging Moderates, one of my podcasts, doesn't get the same CPM that we get is there are an increasing number of advertisers who will just not advertise on political shows.

They're like, any political show is too partisan.

That was always the case.

Can I just say, we tried to do a code conference in D.C.

and we couldn't put the numbers together.

So we didn't do it, right?

Because it was.

But I think a lot of people see Colbert as being especially political.

And probably there are a number of large advertisers who just say, Colbert is off limits for us.

But

this is an indication of a larger trend when you need 200 people to produce 60 million in revenues.

And your revenues have been cut in half in the last six years.

And viewership, listenership.

And you're losing 40 million bucks.

And you're about to get acquired.

I bet Ellison said to whoever's in charge, you got to deal with this problem.

Clean up your mask, clean up.

Clean it up.

One of the things that I think is interesting is that they do very well online.

So does the Daily Show, but it doesn't, for people who know, even though it does, you can't monetize it.

That's the issue.

It's hard.

It's not impossible, but they're doing it for marketing, not monetization, when someone like Theo Vaughan or

Rogan is doing it for money, like for real advertising.

And so that's the difference there.

And the other thing is what's really interesting is I think Colbert would do well in podcasting.

Look at Sean Hayes and those guys on Smartlist or Amy Polar's at the top of the podcast game right now, killing it.

She's probably making a ton of money.

This new pod is doing well.

Yes.

So a lot of these people will find, and not all of them, but a lot of them will find either podcasting or video podcasting, or I could see Colbert doing a bunch of live shows.

He'll do really well if you want to.

Conan Susian podcast.

Conan's doing well.

Jon Stewart.

Right.

They have definitely brought down costs because John's only on once a week.

They have

a larger cast, but of people who aren't paid paid as much.

That's a way to go.

One of the things Scott and I always talk about, revenues and costs have got to align.

And whether you like it or not, you can't immediately say it's an acquiescence.

I think it helps that it gives Trump an excuse.

And he did, of course, as usual, because he's a crass,

hand-bruised person.

You know, he, I'm glad he was fired.

I don't think he was.

fired as much as this isn't working as a business.

And I don't think there was any feeling that Colbert wasn't funny, wasn't talented.

I think they could have done it a different way in terms of telling him and letting people know.

I don't necessarily think the Skydance people knew about it before.

I just think they probably indicated what in the same way that I believe David Zaslov must have indicated to the

CNN people,

we're going to, you better do this because it was Jason Kylar that cut CNN Plus, not.

Zaslov, right?

Is that correct?

Or something like that?

I don't remember, but it was, no, maybe it was.

Maybe it was.

I think it it was Zaslov.

It was Zaslov, yeah.

Supposedly, Zaslov told them to stand down on CNN Plus.

Yes, they did.

I knew about it.

And they

didn't sign.

And they said, sorry, it's not, you don't control us yet.

The deal's not closed.

We're moving forward with it.

And then he showed up and said, Bitch, I'm on top and unplugged it unceremoniously.

As a matter of fact,

the night on a Tuesday night, I talked to our producer Scott Matthews and Rebecca Culler, who I love.

Who's at MSNBC now?

Who's a huge talent and and swimming upstream?

Anyways, but and Scott said, this is great news with a number one show.

Granted, I was beating out Jake Tapper's book club.

But so we were the weakest strongman at the circus.

And so I'm like, get the team on the phone.

High five with a number one weekly show on CNN Plus.

Literally, arguably the weakest flex in the world.

Next morning, I get a text from you.

I'm in San Diego.

Are you all right?

Oh, yeah.

And I'm like, what the fuck?

And I call you.

And I'm like, what's wrong?

And you go, oh, you didn't see.

And you forward me articles CNN plus unblogged.

Yeah, unblogged.

Yeah.

You know, I had didn't sign with them because I had known, I had heard from the new owners that they were cutting it.

So

off the record.

And they had offered me a pretty big contract and I just declined.

I go, they're cutting you.

Like, there's no other way this is going down because they need to, because of that ridiculous debt.

I wasn't as confident as you.

I thought that they needed to go subscription.

It was the easiest cut.

It was the easiest of all.

Aren't they kind of bringing it back?

They are.

They are.

That's what they're doing.

They're going to have to.

They have to get in the streaming game.

It's just how you do it and what economics.

And as much as we love Stephen Colbert, we think he's an amazing talent.

He will be just fine, by the way.

But let me tell you what happens.

Okay.

Stephen Colbert, I think, is making somewhere between 10 and they say between 10, I heard between 10 and 20 million.

Okay, so 20 million.

And by the way, worth every penny.

He could make that in two to three years.

He could be making that on a podcast with eight people

and maybe 10 million.

But where it works works is you use those clips to promote your podcast.

But triving to, it was like we fell into the same trap at the New York Times where we thought letting Google crawl our data that we would send people that we could monetize.

No, Google got 99.4 cents on the dollar for taking our content and running ads along the right rail.

And the traffic they sent us that we monetize with shitty banner ads didn't work.

It doesn't work for them.

It doesn't.

I consume, I consume the best four minutes of late night on TikTok.

And it doesn't, I don't go, well, now I'm going to go watch the full 60 minutes on CBS tomorrow night at midnight.

So the model, the late night model, it's pretty much, I think it's already SNL, which I think remains quite profitable.

But that's once a week,

70 minutes.

It's a ton of talented people bringing together amazing.

I mean, I think if you had, I think if those shows, and that's a model, maybe, if they went to one night, one night a week, like the weekly recap and made that 60 minutes really outstanding, best guests,

that might work.

But nightly television, they just can't do it.

They just can't do it.

Artists can also go direct.

So could the book authors.

So could they go to podcasts?

They get more.

When someone's on my podcast, they are like, oh my God, we saw the move.

The move is higher than those shows now, which is except for maybe like the view really

goose both our books and stuff like that.

But they're expensive.

That's just the way they are.

So we'll see.

I think you're going to see more of this.

I think everyone's going to be sharpening their knives at all these shows, if not cutting them completely.

Okay, Scott, let's go on a quick break.

When we come back, Trump tries to distract from Epstein by suing Rupert Murdoch in the Wall Street Journal.

Good luck with that old crocodile, Trump.

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Scott, we're back.

President Trump is suing Rupert Murdoch in the Wall Street Journal for defamation over a story about the birthday letter that Trump allegedly sent to Jeffrey Epstein in 2003.

The article claimed Trump wrote a letter that included a suggested drawing for Epstein's 50th birthday.

Trump is denying that it was from saying, I don't draw pictures.

In fact, he does.

There's a dozen of them available for you to look at, and he's not bad.

The lawsuit names Murdoch, Dow Jones, News Corp, News Corp CEO, and two reporters, and seeks at least $10 billion in damages.

Trump has ordered Attorney General Pam Bondi to produce grand jury testimony tied to the Epstein case,

which is a nothing burger.

Bondi has asked federal judge to unseal the transcripts.

Trump and Murdoch are two men who love a legal fight.

I'm betting on

Murdoch.

And also, just so you know, you said last week Trump would do all manner of things to distract from Epstein, which he's been doing.

This is included in it.

In addition to this lawsuit, he's now threatened to hold up stadium deal for the Washington Commanders.

He also posted a bizarre AI video of Obama getting arrested, and you put up a number of these.

He's continuing to blame Democrats for the Epstein men.

Let's listen to what Senator Amy Klobuchar had to say to Jake Tapper on CNN this weekend.

The president blaming Democrats for this disaster, Jake, is like that CEO that got caught on camera blaming Cold Play, okay?

Like, this is his making.

He was president when Epstein got indicted for these charges and went to prison.

He was president when Epstein committed suicide.

And also, he was a close friend of Epstein's for many, for a decade or more.

Any thoughts on this?

And

the last thing, CBS YouGov poll finds that 75% of Americans disapprove of the administration's handling of matters related to Epstein.

So it's still, as I noted, is sticking around.

It's not going away.

And

this weekend, pretty much every major newspaper had very, very detailed stories, which I told you, linking Trump to Epstein.

So So solidifying at least the minds of regular people about how close they were.

So what do you think about the Murdoch thing and then the distraction element?

Well, in reverse order, we said this last week, and it's happening.

Every 24 hours, put out something stupid that the media will go for.

So, well, I won't let you change the name of, I won't approve a new stadium unless you take the commanders back to the Redskins.

Stupid.

Makes no sense.

The media goes for it.

That's okay.

It does.

First off, we we should just refer to it the new team there or the team there as the washington epsteins and it's it's not rosy o'donnell it's rosio epstein all we we just need to make sure that he knows this is not working and yeah he has no intention of demanding that they change the name he he this is unlike the other uh cases nuisance lawsuits i think he knows i think murdoch does not scare easily this is actually i think good for murdoch because it gives people the impression that murdoch and his properties are somewhat bipartisan and somewhat

that one particularly.

Well, yeah, but he's just

the post to slap.

Yeah, I think he uses different properties for different things.

Like Fox News has been very slow on reporting this stuff, the Epstein stuff.

New York Post is just either attacking Mom Donnie or not really doing anything here.

The journal does,

I have to say, it's done a great job shepherding the Wall Street Journal and letting them be.

But go ahead.

When the Wall Street Journal puts out this reporting, it's similar to when it, the Wall Street Journal was the first,

I think, the first media outlet where people thought, wow, this reporting lends me to believe that the wealthiest man in the world is in fact a drug addict.

Because

the general sense of the Wall Street Journal is that they are serious journalists and that if they put out something like this, they have double and triple checked it.

And they have, you know, they are not just throwing out shit for clicks.

So this really hurts the president.

I think the president says if I challenge it, it gives the impression that it's not true.

But I don't think this will end up like the other cases where they end up settling.

I think Rupert Murdoch is going to stick up the middle finger and

this will be dismissed.

Which is what he wanted to do.

He's tried to get at him.

There's an idea because Fox News is associated with the president that Murdoch is.

Murdoch is not.

Like, let's be all that discovery during that last trial, where they were very culpable of what they did around Dominion systems.

It was all these emails saying Trump's a fucking asshole, including from Tucker Carlson, by the way, all the internal emails and stuff.

I think that Murdoch has been sitting in the shallows like an old crocodile that he is, waiting to get at Trump.

He does not like this Republican Party.

He likes the Republican Party he can control, which is the old Republican Party, right?

And so Trump is not that.

And so I think he's just been waiting here.

Very much so that Bob Woodward was sued by Trump and the judge knocked it out.

Like he's not giving.

There's nothing.

Someone was like, oh, well, what about Paramount giving?

What about CVS giving?

There's nothing he can do to Rupert Murdoch.

He can't really pull.

Someone's like, they could pull Fox's.

Good luck with doing that.

Like the stuff he can, he can put the screws even to Elon, although it's hard because we'll talk about that in a minute.

It's harder to put the screws to Murdoch of the things.

He's also 109 years old.

I don't think this old crocodile gives a fuck.

And he wants Trump gone so he can then control

Vance or whoever the next one is.

His company, he wants control of that person and he wants Trump gone.

And so I think he's not going to give at all.

I'd be shocked if he gave.

He wouldn't allow it to happen

if at that public, I can see all the problems at Fox because they're so sloppy.

They're not sloppy at the Wall Street Journal and they would never have published this without all the receipts.

Never.

In my experience, there

spectacular journalism goes on there.

Because old media is held to a much higher standard because of Section 230, where they can, where Facebook can circulate massive rumors about Dominion and SmartMatic

that makes what was said on Fox look like a dumpster fire and be immune from that.

And then Fox has to pay three quarters of a billion dollars.

You can bet the lawyers and Rupert Murdoch had said, okay, any story like this, it better be right because I've got a three-quarter of a billion dollar scar

from when we decided to tell our anchors to continue to lie about this knowing that it was a lie.

They have been, their eyebrows have been singed and burnt off.

So the fact that they were willing to say this in a pretty aggressive,

I mean, it just makes the president look bad, right?

Yeah, they did a follower this week about more about their relationship, but go ahead.

And so what he said is, one, I want a distraction and two, he needs a distraction every 24 hours.

And that's what he's doing right now.

Every 24 hours, he is in a room with AI and his comps people saying, testing all these ridiculous stories.

Do they make us look like idiots?

Will we win in court?

Doesn't matter.

Will it distract CNBC, CNN, MSNBC, and everyone else from Epstein's?

And they'll talk about this.

A letter-firing Chairman Powell, changing the name of a football fight.

I mean, these things are so ridiculous.

If anyone believes this is anything but a weapon of mass distraction, I don't think they understand

this guy's strategy.

And this is that, again, this, unlike the other ones, he has no leverage.

Like you said, Rupert does not scare easily.

He doesn't care.

He's going to be dead soon.

I mean, he's, he, this will be, and also, I think, I think Rupert's the big winner here.

I think it comes across as kind of pursuing the truth and as a legitimate, you know, overseeing legitimate journalism.

I think, I think News Corps or Rupert, if you will, is the big winner here.

He has long backed editors of the journal.

When they did those, Kristen Grind, who's now at the New York Times, they did those initial Elon stories.

That was a big step out, like when they did that.

And they are, they do not, remember they did the one where Elon had slept with Sergei's wife thing?

They stepped out on that one.

And they stepped, they will, and they will only do it when it is locked down at the Wall Street Journal.

And again, Emma Tucker, the current editor, is fantastic.

They've had great editors in the past.

He does back, he does back people in that at that place.

At Fox, I think he lost control of the situation.

Either it was Roger Ailes or Tucker Carlson or Bill O'Reilly.

That's a different beast for him and a different tool.

He's doing a different, and the New York Post is just

to write fantastic headlines.

It's not meant, it's meant, it's kind of, to me, the New York Post is him in many ways.

But at the Wall Street Journal, he's been a good owner.

He's been a very good owner.

He's never...

Never once, and I talked to Rupert a lot when I was covering the internet, and he really did not like the internet people.

Never once did he try to pressure me in any way.

He'd call and say, what do you think of this version?

And, you know, but I'll tell you,

I've been, I haven't really been pressured at many places.

I don't, I don't think I have actually, oddly enough.

It doesn't happen, folks.

It just doesn't happen.

And it doesn't happen just because the person's Rupert Murdoch.

He's a very good owner of the Wall Street Journal.

And we'll see what happens after he dies.

That's going to be a, that's going to be a shit show, but we'll see.

Okay, let's go on a quick break.

When we come back, why Trump can't seem to quit SpaceX.

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Scott, we're back.

The U.S.

government just can't quit Elon Musk.

A review of SpaceX's government contracts, spurred by Musk's feud with President Trump, found most were vital.

The review found SpaceX to be critical to the Defense Department and NASA.

And for example, SpaceX's Crew Dragon spacecraft is the only U.S.

vehicle certified to fly astronauts to and from the space station.

And the company's high-speed internet through Starlink provides national security satellite capabilities.

You've mentioned the security risk here.

They are trying to find ways.

to be less reliant on Musk.

It is not new to the Trump administration.

This was a concern of the Biden administration.

It's a concern when any vendor gets too much power, as it should.

But, you know, he has created a product that people have.

Why don't you talk a little bit about this?

I had said he's going to have a hard time getting rid of Musk.

What I found offensive is his attempts to get rid of Musk were not because he's trying to protect the U.S.

government.

It's because he was mad at him.

So that's my issue with what he was doing here.

I think the best and the worst product of the last couple of years are from the same person.

The worst product is hands down, the Cyberchuck.

Just looks ridiculously stupid, not well made, stupid price points, stupid positioning.

Supposedly sales are like 90% off of projections.

The best product is Starlink.

It's just

the delta between everything else and Starlink is staggering on what could be more important.

The broadband is like water.

And this guy's figured out a way to find more potable water at a lower price.

It costs, and

if you were to kind of reverse engineer, well, what's the secret behind Starlink?

87%,

it's 87% of launches, actually 52% of all global orbital launches and 84% of all satellites by mass are from one company.

And 87% of launches in 2024 in the U.S.

were SpaceX.

And they're basically launching, doing a launch every 2.1 days because the Falcon Heavy rocket can put a kilogram into space for 2000 bucks and the near closest like the european equivalent i think it's ariane 5 or something it's 9 000

and nasa is kind of even like prohibited because they're not allowed to blow up rockets on the launch pad they just can't do that as a government agency so he has a staggering lead and it has led to a situation where two-thirds of the low orbit satellites are controlled by one person and his blood sugar might decide one day to turn off battlefield communications technology.

I think where this ends up, one, I mean, the reality is it would be fair to say the U.S.

doesn't have a space program.

It has SpaceX.

And that is if we need to bring astronauts home from the space station, we got to call Elon.

If we want the most sophisticated communication systems in the world and we want to offer it to Ukraine to push back on the Russians, we got to call Elon.

If you're looking, I mean, Kuiper has to call Elon to put their satellites into space.

I think where this goes is, I think this is a monopoly that has avoided or evaded the real scrutiny of the FTC and the DOJ.

I don't think that's going to happen any longer.

But at the same time, they don't want to give up that lead and that confidence.

I think where we end up is something along the lines of where we've ended up with telco.

And that is, I believe there are only two or three networks nationally because they're very expensive to build.

ATD and and Verizon, I don't know if T-Mobile is a third if they rent, but basically what the DOJ and the FDC, is that right?

Basically, what the DOJ and the FTC said is like, okay, we understand the rationale for monopoly.

Basically, cable companies can convince local regulators that only one company can afford to build out all this fiber.

It should be us.

So then regulators say, fine, you're regulated monopoly.

We have a bureaucrat who looks at your pricing.

And then what they did with the telco networks is they forced them to rent them out at an economically fair price to other MVNOs.

So, for example, Mint Mobile, which is one of the fastest-growing telcos in the nation, or was one of the fastest-growing telcos in the nation, is on either AT ⁇ T or Team Mobile's network.

I think that's where this goes, Carol.

I don't think you want to kneecap SpaceX.

I think what they're going to do is similar.

I think they're going to legislate what's happened with Kuiper and say, fine, you have a monopoly.

You keep on trucking.

You keep having the most valuable private company in the world, but you have to lease out your launch capability to other companies.

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Makes sense.

That completely makes sense.

I think any government, whether it's the Trump administration, any administration, Democratic administration, you cannot have one person, especially a single person like Elon Musk, given all the other issues, in charge of these things.

It's the same thing with Lockheed or whoever.

We have to have more competition, and that's the way to do it.

That's exactly Scott's exactly right.

And we do have a more vibrant cell phone.

You do have choices because they can rent it out.

It doesn't really matter.

It's how they market it, what customer service is, not the commodity itself, which is connection, right?

So, yes, I think that's a great idea.

I think that's a great idea.

I am bothered that they, even if I don't like Elon Musk, that they decided to go after him because he didn't get along with the president.

That should not ever happen.

It happens all the time, I guess, but kind of grotesque.

Trying to get rid of him, even if it's right to try to sort of get rid of him or at least create more competition, to review things just to screw with someone seems un-American to me.

It is such an incredible security.

Starlink, amongst other things, right?

They turned off Starlink access for Ukraine during a raid on Russian naval ships in 2022.

This is one man deciding to basically reshape what might happen in terms of the invasion, the successful or unsuccessful invasion.

of Europe.

The American military has been quietly building a dependence on Starlink.

Most notably,

our most important, in my opinion, our most impressive weapons is our ability to deliver massive

nation-like violence anywhere in the world through our,

well, not our satellites, how we communicate, but our satellites, which our carrier squadrons depend upon.

What if all of a sudden

we deploy our carriers to a hotspot, even a hot war, and he decides to turn off Starlink?

How do you think these carriers defend against incoming drones?

Yeah, you have to have other capabilities, 100%, especially as we go cyber with war, which is where it's headed, obviously.

The U.S.

government also rewarded SpaceX a $537 million contract for Starlink services for Ukraine's military.

So

the most impressive component of Musk's universe and the most dangerous monopoly in the world right now is the same company.

It's SpaceX and specifically Starlink.

And I don't think you, I think you want to incent him, give him the economic upside of this incredible engineering feat and the fact that good for him, he's established monopoly power.

But for security reasons and economic reasons, I think you're going to, A, on a military level, ensure that he has no decision capability and there is no off switch within his ketamine-laced fingers.

And two,

that other companies have access to that infrastructure such that he just

competitors.

They have been sending Gwen Shotwell here.

She was apparently here for a meeting with the Trump people.

She is the CEO of SpaceX.

More Gwen Shotwell, less Elon Musk.

She's well-respected within the defense industries, has been a quiet, competent executive,

though she defends him for bad behaviors.

Let me ask you this.

Someone asked me who was the power, and this Netflix show I'm working on.

They said, who's the most powerful female tech executive?

And I said, Gwen Shotwell.

Would you agree with that?

Yes, I would.

Yes, I would.

Quiet.

Yes, 100%.

But don't mention Cheryl Sandberg because you're not allowed to under the terms of our technology.

Not allowed to.

Nor my erectile dysfunction.

And don't you dare make an erect joke about this Cheryl Sandberg joke.

Do you know?

And they also said I couldn't make any religious references.

Oh, my God.

What?

Anyways, have you met me?

You are completely godless.

I don't know what else to say.

Anyway, and that's why I love you.

All right, Scott, one more quick break.

We'll be back for Wins and Fails.

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Okay, Scott, let's hear someone's infails.

Would you like me to go first?

You go first.

Okay, my fail, I have so many.

In-n-Out billionaire owner, her name is Lindsay Snyder.

She's a granddaughter of the founders.

I love an In-N-Out burger.

My kids love In-N-Out.

We've gone there many, many, many dozens and hundreds of times and when lived in California.

It's moving, it's expanding.

It's moving into the South.

Eventually, we'll get to the East Coast, probably never.

She's moving to Tennessee, blaming challenges of running her business and raising her family in California.

Let me just say, Lindsay, I get it.

You want to move to Tennessee.

She's quite, she's a, they're right, they're, they're conservative as being kind.

They're quite on that side, quite far to the right.

I still like your fucking burgers, Lindsay, but my business is California made you, made your family's business.

If you're going to leave, just leave or stay and help fix it in the way you want to.

I just think these people leaving the state, even if there's lots of challenges, and I completely agree,

the lack of gratitude, especially since you stick religious things on your thing, is profound.

California made you.

You have a California vibe to you.

You can't just take what you want and leave and then kick it on the way out.

By the way, a lot of those tech executives who left and kicked California are back in California because it's hot in Austin and it's hot in Miami and you just can't make fetch happen in many of those places.

So

you move wherever you want, honey, but and your burgers are fantastic, but stop like kicking a state that really did make your family as wealthy as it is.

That's my issue with her.

Again, please eat it in and out.

But Lindsay, you're ungrateful and terrible in that regard.

In my positive thing, I would say everyone needs to watch The Gilded Age this season.

It's so good.

If you like, you know, wealth porn and all this stuff, Carrie Coons plays Bertha.

I just love her.

Every single person on that show, I love.

And it's really fun.

If you want to sort of live in another billionaire era, essentially, and watch them manipulate each other in all kinds of early America, it's the third season is really hitting its stride.

and it's super soapy also and really fun.

And they do a great job on costumes.

It's the same guy

who did, I believe, Downton Abbey.

It's the same guy who did Downton Abbey.

It's great.

It's really fun.

And I'm really enjoying the third season, along with the recent season of the Sex in the City spin-off and just like that.

People are a lot of hate watching it, but it's totally enjoyable.

Same thing.

HBO.

Just like that.

It is.

People are hate watching it.

Oh, awful.

I know, but I'm telling you, it's like going up in the ratings because it's like people are hate watching it or whatever.

The last episode was actually quite good.

I like Sarah Jessica Parker.

I love her, actually.

And I just think it's doing really well.

I like, look, it's winning.

So whatever, however, winning, both of those shows are doing really well for HBO.

Good job, HBO.

Yeah.

I've just looked at, I haven't watched The Gilded Age.

Carrie Kuno, I thought, gave the best monologue in The White Lotus.

She's in it, right?

Yes.

And Cynthia Nixon's in both the Sex in the City one and also this one.

She plays, she's in both, she's in both shows.

Anyway, it's great.

It's a great show.

It's a great show.

Terry Coons is so good.

My win is,

I just interviewed Governor Whitmer, Gretchen Whitmer, and it just struck me every time I talked to, I think it's so easy to be really cynical about our elected officials.

I think when you get to,

when you talk to a lot of these people, you know,

raised by a single mother,

two daughters, three stepsons,

you know, very open about, didn't have her shit together in high school, went to Michigan State, then got her act together, went to law school.

And it's just a very impressive person.

And it just reminded me that there really are a lot of people who give up a lot of economic upside to be great public servants.

And I enjoyed the conversation with her.

So I don't know, my win is Governor Whitmore, and Michigan does a pretty good job of being pretty bipartisan.

They have economic growth there.

They have good quality of life, trying to keep affordability, or building a lot of housing, great universities.

Anyways, go, Michigan.

Do you think she'll run?

Just curious from talking to her.

I don't think she will.

I assume that anyone who calls me and comes on my podcast is running for president.

Okay.

Why would they do that?

To hang out with my charming widen.

Because she's a good penis joke.

She likes a good penis joke.

I'm sure.

She spent.

an hour and a half on my podcast with me.

Anyone who calls, anyone who takes an interest in me is

presidential usually asking is asking for money or finding her for president well maybe both by the way immediately heard from public broadcasting what's it called pbs npr kbs npr pbs yeah ed yeah the corporation of public broadcasting as soon as i said i was donating money i immediately that that minute good for that i called you good for that i got a nice email from the director of development saying i'm here to facilitate the wire yeah the wire and then said

and then said we'd love we'd love to set up a call and hear about your vision and i'm like oh gosh

here we go Here's the check.

Here you go.

Anyways, my win is the great state of Michigan and Governor Whitmer.

My fail is I'm really on this thing.

I think we should, I'd like to see a Democrat or somebody propose legislation that

unless it's in the agency of a military operation or a national security threat,

I just don't think any civic employee should ever be allowed to wear masks.

I just, I find

if you look at what's going on, the Obama administration was actually deporting 2 to 3x per month the number of immigrants as the Trump administration.

So what do we have here?

We have something that is ineffective that is purely for performance and fear.

And when a government is now getting more funding than the FBI just to instill fear in citizens and create distractions and cosplay macho.

You got to think, well, not only is that strange, but also the thing that leads to bad behavior and creates that

atmosphere of fear that is ineffective is a lot of that is these masks.

And I've been thinking a lot about identity.

I just don't think

people who we pay to enforce the law to perform a civic function should be hiding their identity.

Agree.

That's the life they've chosen.

Well, look, if you're a Navy SEAL doing special ops, I get it.

If you're a pilot agent,

whatever it might be, I get it.

But if you're showing up to Home Depots, take the fucking mask off.

I want to see who you are.

I want to see how you acquit yourself.

I want to see that you have some sort of fidelity to the law and just

hold yourself to a certain level of humanity when people know.

It's a pretty basic standard to hold your actions to your identity.

And the people who should be most, who should have the most responsibility for that are the people charged with upholding our laws and giving people confidence that their tax dollars and their government are acquitting themselves in a, in an honorable, decent way.

Anyways, I'm, I'm, and by the way, I don't think if you're engaging in hate speech on campus, I'm not sure you should be allowed to wear a mask either.

And I don't know if you can enforce that, but I would like to see the chancellors of universities say, if you show up and just to be clear.

Could you show your face?

Show your face.

Yeah.

Look, if you want to show up and start saying things, masks are not allowed.

That's probably less enforceable.

Probably.

The other one is too, probably.

But I agree.

Government employees certainly should.

There you go.

When's the last time you ate In-N-Out?

Oh, just the last time I was in San Francisco.

I eat it all the time.

Every time.

My brother lives.

And when I go see Jeff,

he has one.

When I go south to Silicon, I eat.

My kids love it.

I have the one with the lettuce.

I don't, with the, what's it called?

When you eat it with just lettuce.

Animal style?

No, animal style.

That's what Alex eats.

That's when you have all that crap on it.

Like, Alex eats animal style.

That has all kinds of, I don't have the heart for it.

But it's great.

It's wonderful.

Their shakes are good.

Their fries die in five seconds, but they're delicious in that five seconds that exists.

I love them.

I still think she should be grateful to California and stop like pissing on it.

Anyway,

we want to hear from you.

Send us your questions about business tech or whatever's on your mind.

Go to nymag.com slash pivot.

It's a question for the show or call 85551-Pivot.

Elsewhere in the Kara and Scott universe, last week on On with Kara Swisher, I spoke with writer and former advice columnist Eugene Carroll and her lead attorney, Roberta Kaplan, two badasses.

Since Trump started defaming Carol, she's gotten hundreds, if not thousands, of threats, including death threats, but she's not backing down and she's waiting to get her money and she's closer than ever to getting the first payment.

We'll see about the second, but it looks like she probably will get them.

Let's listen to a clip.

I don't care if they shoot me.

I don't care.

I'd like to get shot in the arm.

I'd like to get shot.

I don't want to be shot in the head and dead.

I don't care.

I do not care.

I want everybody in the country to get off their lazy asses and walk outside.

Look at their neighbors.

That's what I'd like people to do.

It's stupid to be afraid.

Why live your life that way?

I've been here 81 years.

I'm not going to waste the last of it worrying about that guy in marmalade colored makeup.

I really like her.

Go, girl.

Go, girl.

She's so badass.

She's listened to it.

She's joyful.

And she won her cases, both jury trials, and he keeps making trouble.

I think that shows you.

Roberta Kaplan did an amazing job.

She also won against the

assholes in Charlottesville.

She's a winner in many ways.

So we'll see.

That's the show.

Thanks for listening to Pivot and be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel.

We'll be back on Friday.

Scott, read us out.

Today's show is produced by Lara Neyman, Zoe, Marcus, Taylor Griffin, and Kevin Oliver.

Ernie Intertod engineered this episode.

Thanks also to Jude Burroughs, Mia Severa, and Dan Shallan.

Nishak Kuru is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts.

Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform.

Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media.

You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com/slash pod.

We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business care.

Have a great rest of the week.