Trump Sues Murdoch, Colbert Cancellation, and Coldplay Kiss Cam Fallout

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Speaker 18 Your inhibition centers were damaged at birth, Scott Galloway.

Speaker 18 Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network.
I'm Kara Swisher.

Speaker 19 And I'm Scott Galloway.

Speaker 18 Scott, all I have to say to you is bubbles.

Speaker 19 Bubbles. Say more.

Speaker 18 This weekend, I went to something called the Bubble Experience. You know, the people who did the Van Gogh thing, the multimedia and Van Gogh thing?

Speaker 18 They've done this bubble thing, and it was so much fun. It was all these various types of bubbles and like pools full of like bubble-looking things and balloons of bubbles.

Speaker 18 We went with friends and my kids, and we had the best bubblish time.

Speaker 19 You really need to start doing drugs. Shit, like that was invented.

Speaker 19 Yeah, for that.

Speaker 18 That's what I was thinking as I was there. I have to say, it was a whole lot of fun.
I'm trying to do more things that are not digital, not TV-oriented or movie-oriented.

Speaker 18 And this was very kinetic and very like touching things. And it was nice.

Speaker 19 They're all over,

Speaker 19 they're all over these sensory experiences where it's basically like the color factory where you basically jump into a ball pit and then decide they tell you that magenta is your spirit animal color.

Speaker 19 And then you have a weird color ice cream and they charge you $85.

Speaker 19 And you just know, you just know what it is.

Speaker 19 You know, it's literally like four kids in a dorm room their senior year at NYU who are so fucking high going, what's the easiest way we can invest some of our parents' money and make millions of dollars?

Speaker 19 Yeah, but I have to say it was utterly

Speaker 18 pleasing. It was, they did it so well.
And I have to tell you, Scott, I don't use VR very much, but at the end, they had a VR experience, also with bubbles. That was the thematic.
That was wonderful.

Speaker 18 It was the first time they had you hanging in chairs. So you were moving, The chairs were moving.

Speaker 19 I did something similar when I was in Amsterdam. A woman named Helga held me in a chair.
It was very expensive, though. It was very expensive.

Speaker 18 Anyway, anyway.

Speaker 19 Not for kids.

Speaker 18 Urged people to get out and do things with friends. We laughed our asses off.
Anyway, we got a lot to get to today, including Trump suing Rupert Murdoch and CBS canceling Colbert.

Speaker 18 I know you have a lot of thoughts on this, but it's really hard not to talk about the cold play situation, the cold playing of it all.

Speaker 18 The CEO of Data Ops platform, Astronomer, I don't know why I was called Astronomer, Andy Byron, has resigned after being caught on camera at a Cold Play concert, having an intimate moment with the company's head of HR.

Speaker 18 You literally cannot make this up.

Speaker 18 We had our own steamy date at Cold Play caught on camera, which people can see on our socials. As listeners pointed out, of course, you're the small spoon, Scott.

Speaker 18 Another communter said, I would let Kara swaddle the fuck out of me. One more, someone said Scott would be an awful head of HR.

Speaker 18 He would have to call himself to his office on a daily basis for the latest inappropriate joke. I mean, what do you think of this thing? This was, this is a phenomenon, phenomenon.

Speaker 19 Well, first off, I mean, distinct of all the humor and the

Speaker 19 reality. Good humor.

Speaker 18 Good humor.

Speaker 19 The reality is a mother who trusted this guy who thought she'd found the love of her life and was raising children with someone found out in the worst way possible

Speaker 19 that he's a fan of Cold Play.

Speaker 19 I knew that. I knew.
I was like, where is he going? Because he could care less.

Speaker 18 Anyway, Cole Play was a little bit embarrassing. I have to say, I would agree.

Speaker 19 I would agree. Whatever.
He works for astronomer. He was studying Uranus.

Speaker 19 Oh,

Speaker 18 how long did you wait for that one?

Speaker 19 Okay, I'll be serious. I'll be serious for a question.
I always go. I think it reflects something kind of weird about our society.

Speaker 19 Shaming, I think a lot about shaming because I think a lot about depression. and what triggers you.
And the reality is shaming is an important part of our society.

Speaker 19 And that is to be shamed is meant to restore the social fabric. You are not supposed to beat up children in your tribe.
And if you do, you are shamed. And there's a good reason for it.

Speaker 19 It's meant to create cohesion and a more civil,

Speaker 19 you know, civil community and species. The problem is now we have industrialized shame and we use it for entertainment.

Speaker 19 And in my opinion, a lot of what was meant to be shaming was meant to restore fabric. It's cutting out our fabric now.
And that is, there's just too much economic incentive to shame people.

Speaker 19 Also, on a more meta level, I find there's an industrial shaming complex is essentially a form of mini-revolution because essentially they're always shaming rich white people because people are so pissed off that CEOs are now making 300 times the average salary, not 30.

Speaker 19 And let me just go to a very tactical level here. We deal with this all the time on boards because

Speaker 19 men will mistake kindness for sexual interest and women mistake

Speaker 19 sexual interest for kindness. There is always a mismatch instinctively.
Men, when they get to a certain certain level, start believing that that woman is interested in me.

Speaker 19 And this is, you know, reportedly.

Speaker 18 She seemed interested in him, but go ahead.

Speaker 19 Right. And it happens.
And a lot of times it's consensual. But the approach, and I think this is the right one that a bunch of the boards I've been on, is that below a certain level,

Speaker 19 it consensual relationships of which are 99% at work, one in three relationships begin at work, are a wonderful thing. Eight,

Speaker 19 there's been eight marriages at my companies. I think it's a wonderful thing.

Speaker 19 Above a certain level, executive level, and you have to, in my opinion, need to predetermine it, your fly is up and locked. This guy, in my opinion, was guilty the moment that happened.

Speaker 19 Because when you get to a certain level of power, people will start treating you differently and you create a power asymmetry, which usually men are more predisposed to abusing, and it creates too much risk for the organization.

Speaker 19 So in sum,

Speaker 19 let's be honest, he didn't resign. He was fired.

Speaker 19 The board immediately met, had a conversation, said he's out, and then he got that call saying, we think we're going to make a change. We think it's best if you resign.
And he agreed.

Speaker 18 I know. That happens a lot in these companies, trust me, in covering them.
But it's always someone like that.

Speaker 18 But I mean, in the case of one big tech company, the chief counsel had a baby with someone at the company.

Speaker 19 Yeah, Google?

Speaker 18 Yeah, this would be it.

Speaker 19 You mean Tinder, which was the tech community?

Speaker 18 Yeah, they do that all the time. One time, a friend of mine who was working got a job, I think, at Facebook at the time, or it went to a small company from Facebook or something like that.

Speaker 18 And I said, well, what's your job? She goes, my job is the Department of Stopping People from Fucking Each Order. And I was like, oh, okay, good job.

Speaker 18 But here's the thing in this case, beyond that, and that's the obvious issue here from a corporate point of view.

Speaker 18 One, when you go to concerts now or anywhere, you are, you should have not, no expectations of privacy with all the cameras, with everything being recorded.

Speaker 18 And by the way, a KISS cam is sort of the least of the technologies, right? Like KISS cams have been around forever.

Speaker 18 So have like pranking people, like those TV, remember those TV shows where they always like, candid camera, like, right? This is not a new, fresh thing.

Speaker 18 And sometimes candid camera resulted in really terrible things, right? Things like this.

Speaker 18 So I don't think it's a new and fresh thing. I think what it is, is that the ability for it to go viral in the most profound way is really what's different.

Speaker 18 I think we've been shaming people for a long time using technology.

Speaker 18 Prank phone calls, again, candid camera back in the day and things like that. So I'm not so sure they should have gone to this concert as a couple, which was problematic at the company, and

Speaker 18 thought people might not see them, right?

Speaker 18 That was sort of the arrogance of it more than anything.

Speaker 18 The internet did do an amazing job with funny stuff, that was for sure, like putting Betty and Veronica together or, or Fred Flintstone and Betty, or Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump, or Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein.

Speaker 18 So some of those were quite funny, right?

Speaker 19 I think the funniest thing is now at every sporting venue across the world, when anyone, the Kiss Can goes anywhere, they all dive like they're being found out.

Speaker 18 Yeah, that was funny. Those are good.

Speaker 19 But there's,

Speaker 19 let me ask you this. And this is one of the things that always struck me about a certain level of fame.
How many people a day would you say recognize you?

Speaker 18 Seven to 10 now.

Speaker 19 no i'm sorry seven to ten come up to you yes so lots of people recognize me yeah okay so i'm aware of it okay this is what that means and i think about this a lot supposedly for every person that comes up to you a hundred people recognize you and don't come up to you because think about how many people you recognize yeah and you don't you but and how many you actually go up to i recognize in soho i see people I see dozens of people every day.

Speaker 19 I either know them professionally, but I never go up to someone or very rarely go up to them. So if you, if seven people are coming up to you, that means that day, 700 people recognized you.

Speaker 19 And I think about that and it freaks me out because what I feel like now is I have a security camera everywhere. Right.
Wherever I am. And you see it, right?

Speaker 19 I'll be at a restaurant and I look over and I see someone looking at me and I'm like, that's more than a glancing phase. They're trying to put together how they know me.

Speaker 19 And some of it is bad because you feel like you lose a little bit of your anonymity. But I also think it's not a bad thing

Speaker 19 to just be thinking, okay, I need to equip myself well because I do.

Speaker 18 I act better. I have to say.

Speaker 19 Do you act better?

Speaker 18 I was getting coffee the other day.

Speaker 19 I think I'm nicer.

Speaker 18 I'm nicer. I'm so nice.
I'm like, do you want a picture? Would you like? Cause they're sitting there with their camera.

Speaker 18 We're not like really big celebrities, but I think people really do know us because literally, especially after when your dad died, people really reached out. I had a lot that week.

Speaker 18 But I had two people come up to me in one coffee thing. And I thought, other people know who I am here.
Right. And so

Speaker 18 what I do is I behave better. I'm incredibly polite.
When I have my kids with me, I'm very nice to my children. Like, I don't like chastise them.

Speaker 18 I'm like, like, sometimes when your kids drive you crazy, you're like, will you please sit down? I don't do that, which is interesting.

Speaker 19 So I've stopped hitting my kids.

Speaker 19 I hate that. That's a real bummer.
Oh, no.

Speaker 18 You know, I think nicer. I think I'm nicer in public public because I'm aware that just one picture of me being a Karen or something, I don't want that to happen.

Speaker 19 I don't go everywhere. I agree.

Speaker 18 I'm not usually like that, but that.

Speaker 19 But it's so strange what the algorithms and the public pick up on because more is known about these two people now than the guy who was killed trying to assassinate Trump.

Speaker 19 I mean, it's just weird what we find fascinating. These people literally, you want to talk about the earth moving beneath your feet? Can you imagine? This is for the rest of their life.

Speaker 19 This is how those people, these people, what these people are known for, whenever they move to a new community, they get remarried and they're joining a tennis club.

Speaker 19 They're showing up for a game of doubles. And this woman, this is like, oh, remember that? That's this woman.
They have just marked their brands for the rest of their lives.

Speaker 18 They did do the move, though. I think they didn't, you know, they could have done a lot of things, but their move was so dramatic at the same time, like we're hiding.

Speaker 18 And then allowed Chris Martin to say what he said, right? It all came together because they did the duck and cover.

Speaker 18 And then Chris Martin said they're either having an affair or they're shy, but he first said they're either having uh uh uh oh like he kind of set it up.

Speaker 18 Like, imagine being him and who's the camera guy? Like it's all those kind of things. I'm fascinated by.
Was it good for PR at all for the company or not?

Speaker 19 That's it. You know what? That's a really interesting question because one of the biggest components of branding now is just awareness.
Had you ever heard of a firm named Astronomer before?

Speaker 18 I thought it was an astronomy thing. Like, I didn't know it was what it was.

Speaker 19 It had some sort of AI thing. In a weird way, this look, this was bad for the two of them.
In a weird way, I would argue this is good for shareholders of the company. Yeah.

Speaker 19 Well, everybody knows this company now. It's true.

Speaker 18 It's true. I think I met this guy many years ago when he was at Fuse.
I think he was at Fuse. I feel like I met him when I saw him.
I'm like, but he looks like a lot of tech CEOs, like to me.

Speaker 18 I was like, oh, that guy.

Speaker 19 I don't know him. I know him.
I don't know him really well, but he gives great head.

Speaker 19 How did I go there? How did I go there? How did I go there?

Speaker 18 How am I going to make this transition then?

Speaker 19 Whenever I know when it's time for me to leave a CEO, when we get a CFO or a head of HR, then I'm like, I'm out. And then the, but our company gets acquired, right?

Speaker 19 And of course, there's this new global head of HR.

Speaker 19 On fucking Friday at 6 p.m.,

Speaker 19 first week after the deal closes, I get a call from the global head saying, hi, this is Lisa, whatever, head of global HR. I need to speak to you urgently.

Speaker 18 Oh, no.

Speaker 19 I mean, I'm there. It's been five days and I'm already in trouble.
Yeah.

Speaker 19 So I call her back and start emailing her and she doesn't get back to me until Monday at 10 a.m. Which, by the way, is a great weekend.
That's a great weekend.

Speaker 19 When the head of HR calls you and says, call me immediately.

Speaker 18 I hate when people do that in general. I need to talk to you urgently, but then don't.

Speaker 19 And then you don't talk to them. Anyway, so she calls me back.
And at this point, the check is cleared so I can be fairly forward.

Speaker 19 And I'm like, and I said to her, I'm like, how how do you think my weekend was right how do you think what do you think my

Speaker 19 it was very simple we have these all hands

Speaker 19 and that monday we'd had an all hands and we always go around and everyone talks about what they're doing and we introduce the new people and i say i open it up for questions and one of the one of the newbies goes i'm brand new i've asked what is it he's like i'm just curious what is the vacation policy And I said, the vacation policy is when you're new, you don't ask what the fucking vacation policy is.

Speaker 18 Wow, good thing they didn't.

Speaker 19 And the whole, and I said, I'm kidding. Uh,

Speaker 19 you know,

Speaker 19 Lisa, who's your manager, will tell you what it is. And she called me and said, you can't ever discourage people from taking vacation.
And that's what you were doing.

Speaker 19 And I said, I said, I understand. By the way, I need to leave Gartner immediately.
Yes. Oh, my God.

Speaker 18 You're calling me on that.

Speaker 19 Because you know what? I usually do it in all hands, Carol. And this is, I usually say, look,

Speaker 19 many of you may have realized it was out for a week. I was in a terrible accident and my inhibition sensors were deeply damaged.

Speaker 19 So there's going to be some locker room talk, some inappropriate touching, but I hope you are patient with me on my journey.

Speaker 19 No.

Speaker 19 I love that.

Speaker 19 My inhibition sensors have been damaged.

Speaker 18 Your inhibition centers were damaged at birth, Scott Galloway.

Speaker 19 There's going to be inappropriate.

Speaker 19 You don't even have the sensors. I hope you help me on my journey.

Speaker 18 You have zero sensors.

Speaker 18 Let me tell you my story. One time when I was at the New York Times, I had tweeted something about some terrible experience on United, which, by the way, I'm a global services person there now.

Speaker 18 Someone from the New York Times, pretty high up on the friggin' masthead, was like, we think this looks like you're asking for something from United, which I wasn't.

Speaker 18 I was just griping, like my usual gripery. And I was like, no, I'm not.
I don't want to. Well, they could because we're the New York Times.
I said, well, I don't work for you. So

Speaker 18 they're like, we'd like you to take it down. And I'm like, uh, no.
And they're like, yeah, but we want you to take it down. I go,

Speaker 19 no.

Speaker 18 And I finally was like, you are a person on the masthead and you're spending your weekend yelling at me about a tweet of which I refuse to take down because I think what you're saying is ridiculous.

Speaker 18 That's why I like being independent. I'm just telling you, this is what I'm doing.

Speaker 19 I'll take that and raise you 50. I'm booked to do a TV show for Bloomberg Television.
They're going to go on original TV. Classic.

Speaker 19 And I do these TV shows. It's COVID.
We sell out advertising for this thing. We have five shows in the can.

Speaker 19 The guy in charge, the producer says, can you do some promos? I'm like, no problem. Go into my studio, flip on the lights.

Speaker 19 i do a promo including one where i'm the construction worker from the guy from the village people you can find it folks on the internet without my shirt i talked about you know my favorite um one night um that i'm a construction worker uh my i'm in my favorite one night stand is called the nut and bolt yeah and uh

Speaker 19 and i and then i just tweet these things out i don't ask them for permission i just tweet them out and i say here comes the show and the producer calls me back and goes we're horrified, but this is exactly what we need.

Speaker 19 They liked it. And then the next day he calls me and says, basically says, Houston, we have a problem.

Speaker 19 And what had just happened is Bloomberg.

Speaker 19 Well, Bloomberg had just had a guy sitting around a round table inviting interns over when he was in a bathrobe open. And then they'd had another person groping people in the lunchroom or whatever.

Speaker 19 So they were very understandably sensitive to anything. And some of the journalists found it offensive.
And so he called, he called me. I remember I was at the Beverly Hosadel.

Speaker 19 He called me and said, I need you to do two things. One, I need you to tweet out that we didn't know you were doing this.
And I'm like, and I'm like, no problem, you didn't. I did this on my own.

Speaker 19 And he said, and the second thing is I need you to apologize. I'm like, nope, I'm not sorry.
I don't, I, I don't, I don't think this is any way sexist.

Speaker 19 And if I apologize, it's going to do me no good and you no good. So the truth has a nice ring to it, but I'm not apologizing.

Speaker 19 And they came back with a list of, they said, okay, we can get through this. And they came back with a list of things I couldn't do.
And my favorite was, no sex jokes, no ex whatefs.

Speaker 19 But for some reason, they added in there, you can never mention Cheryl Sandberg. I thought that was so weird.
What? Yes. They came back with 12 things.

Speaker 19 They're like, we're going to get through this, but there are these things you can't do. You can't, oh, I know.
Oh, I just wanted to do that.

Speaker 19 My other one, like number nine was, you can't reference your erectile dysfunction ever again.

Speaker 19 They came back with 12 random things, but my favorite was, you can never mention Sheryl Sandberg.

Speaker 18 And your erect.

Speaker 19 And I called them back, true story. And I said, you know what? I called my team into a room and I said, this is what they want us to do.
And this is going to be great for us.

Speaker 19 And we've sold advertising. And I was kind of ready to sign up for it.
And the team said, fuck it. Let's let our freak flag fly.
Let's not do it.

Speaker 19 And I called the guy back and said, this is a true story. I said, there's not a fit here.
Let's fold our tent. We did five goddamn shows and they never made, they never saw the light of day.

Speaker 18 Five shows.

Speaker 18 Can I just say, who stuck with you during that time?

Speaker 19 That's right. You stood by me.

Speaker 18 I stood by.

Speaker 19 You stood by your man.

Speaker 18 I did. You never did.

Speaker 19 You You stood by your man.

Speaker 18 And do I let you do erectile dysfunction? Do I let you reference?

Speaker 19 100%.

Speaker 18 Never going to get in the Scotts jam. That's right.
Anyway, let's move on because this is interesting because we like being independent.

Speaker 18 And this is why CBS insists the decision to cancel the late show with Stephen Colbert was purely financial and had nothing to do with the other matters happening at Paramount, which is acquiescing Donald Trump and paying him a bribe.

Speaker 18 Colbert broke the news last week that his show would end next May. This was just days after calling Paramount's $16 million settlement with Trump a big fat bribe, which is accurate.

Speaker 18 Also, worth noting, Skydance CEO David Ellison met with Trump-appointed FCC chair Brandon Carr earlier in the week. I'm not sure those things were related, but because he's in the middle of a merger.

Speaker 18 The Writers Guild of America is calling for an investigation, calling the cancellation appears to be a bribe to curry favor with the Trump administration to

Speaker 18 pass this merger. Senators Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren are also questioning the timing and motivation of the decision without proof.

Speaker 18 I'm going to be pretty fair here because

Speaker 18 I don't know what's going on. What do you think is happening? There were reports, which we all know about.
They acknowledge the financials. Ad revenue for Colbert has dropped 40% since 2018.

Speaker 18 The show had reportedly been losing $40 million a year. I'm not sure I believe those numbers.
I think it's not making as much money, and the salaries are high,

Speaker 18 and late night is declining. No question.

Speaker 18 The other shows,

Speaker 18 obviously Kimmel and Fallon allegedly lose money. I don't know, and I don't know if they're figuring in ancillary things or whatever.

Speaker 18 They may just be doing a, I don't, I'd like to see the actual numbers myself before they make that claim.

Speaker 18 Um, Daily Show airs on Comedy Central, which is also owned by Paramount, but the others, Fallon and others, and Seth Meyers. Seth Meyers had to get rid of the band, I think, in order to keep going.

Speaker 18 COVID hit these shows very hard, and so did the

Speaker 18 fracturing of the monoculture that we used to have. Now everybody could do this and are listened to by more people.

Speaker 18 I think he had 2.4 million people watching him,

Speaker 18 which is a hefty sum, but still the economics weren't right, apparently. Your thoughts?

Speaker 19 Well, first off, the Writers Guild Association should announce an investigation about how they could be so fucking stupid as to go on strike for five and a half months from a position of total weakness.

Speaker 19 But anyways, okay.

Speaker 19 This is a situation where I merely thought, all right, another example of our slow descent into fascism as the president puts pressure on media and attempts to leverage his FTC or DOJ approval

Speaker 19 in exchange for getting rid of a critic. I did the research and I think I'm wrong.
I really do think this was a financial decision.

Speaker 19 If you look at the numbers, 2018, late night TV was $400 million in advertising. It's gone to $200 million.

Speaker 18 So in half, yep.

Speaker 19 Supposedly the numbers on this show is it costs $100 million to produce and it makes $60 million. It's losing $40 million a year.
Do you know how many people work on Colbert?

Speaker 19 Do you know how many professionals they have?

Speaker 19 200. So just let me,

Speaker 19 I never miss an opportunity to pat ourselves on the back, but let's compare the economics of our universe versus theirs.

Speaker 19 Pivot and the profit universe will do somewhere between 20 and 25 million next year. I would say we have between, let's call it 15

Speaker 19 at the most, 15 full-time employees. Well, there are some people that box on our ads.
I have a bunch of people doing. Yeah, you're right.

Speaker 19 Let's call it 15 people. 200 people at 60 million is $300,000 per employee.
We're doing $1.5 million per employee and we're growing 20% a year.

Speaker 19 They're doing $300,000 per employee and shrinking 20% a year. And this is what I think happened, Kara.
I think Skydance, and I've been a part of this, when they acquired the company,

Speaker 18 they have not yet acquired the company.

Speaker 19 It's

Speaker 19 but during diligence. And to get the deal closed, part of the conditions on closing are like, look, you've got some problems here, including one

Speaker 19 show that is losing $40 million.

Speaker 19 We don't want to be the bad cops who come in and fire all these people. You need to do it.
And so I think David Ellison. I'm guessing.

Speaker 18 That's what I'm guessing. David Ellison said.

Speaker 19 Yeah, David Ellison said, look, and this is as a function of closing, you want the existing management team to do all the dirty work. You don't want to show up and be the bad guys.

Speaker 18 Yeah, they may stay the management teams also. So they want to curry favor with the new owners, presumably.
It happened at CNN. Remember David Zazov Cut? You remember CNN Plus, Scott?

Speaker 19 I do, yes.

Speaker 19 Very well. Speaking of more shows that were canceled.

Speaker 18 Remember when I didn't sign and I said they're going to cut it?

Speaker 19 And you were like, no, they're not.

Speaker 18 And I was like, yes, they are.

Speaker 19 Because that was in late night television. Yes, yeah.
Name it by lights. But I generally think this, this isn't the end of the Colbert show, Kara.
This is the end of late night television.

Speaker 19 Late night television.

Speaker 18 He'll be fine, I think. I think he'll do well in this medium.

Speaker 19 Oh, he's a remarkably talented person. Remarkably talented.
But this is a shitty business.

Speaker 19 America used used to gather around the TV. It was the last thing they did.
Now

Speaker 19 they don't. And in addition, let's look at the numbers.

Speaker 19 4 million people were watching pre-COVID, 2.4 million now, and even worse than that, only 10% is in the core demographic. It's all old people.

Speaker 19 It's only about a quarter of a million people in the 18 to 54, which is the only people that advertisers want to reach.

Speaker 19 Do you realize this, what we're on today will reach as many people in the core demographic as Colbert's show, but he's taking 200 people to do it.

Speaker 19 So now what might have happened is in terms of politically, he probably, his revenues declined faster than Fallon or Kimmel because he was seen as being especially political.

Speaker 19 And the reason why Raging Moderates, one of my podcasts, doesn't get the same CPM that we get. is there are an increasing number of advertisers who will just not advertise on political shows.

Speaker 19 They're like, any political show is too partisan.

Speaker 18 That was always the case. Can I just say, we tried to do a code conference in DC and we couldn't put the numbers together.
So we didn't do it, right? Because it was.

Speaker 19 But I think a lot of people see Colbert as being especially political. And probably there are a number of large advertisers who just say, Colbert is off limits for us.
But

Speaker 19 this is an indication of a larger trend when you need 200 people to produce 60 million in revenues and your revenues have been cut in half in the last six years.

Speaker 19 And viewership, listenership, and you're losing 40 million bucks, and you're about to get acquired. I bet Ellison said to whoever's in charge, you got to deal with this problem.

Speaker 19 Clean up your mask, clean up. Clean it up.

Speaker 18 One of the things that I think is interesting is that they do very well online. So does the Daily Show, but it doesn't, for people who know, even though it does, you can't monetize it.

Speaker 18 That's the issue. It's hard.
It's not impossible, but they're doing it for marketing, not monetization. When someone like Theo Vaughan or Rogan is doing it for money, like for real advertising.

Speaker 18 And so that's the difference there. And the other thing is, what's really interesting is I think Colbert would do well in podcasting.

Speaker 18 Look at Sean Hayes and those guys on Smartlist, or Amy Polar's at the top of the podcast game right now, killing it. She's probably making a ton of money.

Speaker 19 This new pod is doing well.

Speaker 18 Yes. So a lot of these people will find, and not all of them, but a lot of them will find either podcasting or video podcasting, or I could see Colbert doing a bunch of live shows.

Speaker 18 He'll do really well if you want to.

Speaker 19 Conan's fusion population.

Speaker 18 Conan's doing well.

Speaker 19 Jon Stewart.

Speaker 18 Right. They have definitely brought down costs because John's only on once a week.
They have a small, you know, a larger cast, but of people who aren't paid as much. That's a way to go.

Speaker 18 One of the things Scott and I always talk about, revenues and costs have got to align. And whether you like it or not, you can't immediately say it's an acquiescence.

Speaker 18 I think it helps that it gives Trump an excuse. And he did, of course, as usual, because he's a crass,

Speaker 18 hand-bruised person.

Speaker 18 You know, he, I'm glad he was fired. I don't think he was fired as much as this isn't working as a business.
And I don't think there was any feeling that Colbert wasn't funny, wasn't talented.

Speaker 18 I think they could have done it a different way in terms of telling him and letting people know.

Speaker 18 I don't necessarily think the Skydance people knew about it before. I just think they probably indicated what in the same way that I believe David Zaslov must have indicated to the

Speaker 18 CNN people,

Speaker 18 we're going to, you better do this because it was Jason Kylar that cut CNN Plus, not Zaslov, right? Is that correct? Or something like that? I don't remember, but it was, no, maybe it was.

Speaker 18 Maybe it was.

Speaker 19 I think it was Zaslov. It was Zaslov, yeah.

Speaker 19 Supposedly, Zazlov told them to stand down on CNN Plus. Yes, they did.
I knew about it. And I didn't sign.
And they said, sorry, it's not. You don't control us yet.
The deal's not closed.

Speaker 19 We're moving forward with it. And then he showed up and said, bitch, I'm on top and unplugged it unceremoniously.

Speaker 19 As a matter of fact, the night on a Tuesday night, I talked to our producer, Scott Matthews and Rebecca Culler, who I love.

Speaker 18 Who's at MSNBC now?

Speaker 19 Who's a huge talent and swimming upstream?

Speaker 19 Anyways, but and Scott said, this is great news with a number one show. Granted, I was beating out Jake Tapper's book club.

Speaker 19 So we were the weakest strongman at the circus. And so I'm like, get the team on the phone, high five with a number one weekly show on CNN Plus, literally arguably the weakest flex in the world.

Speaker 19 Next morning, I get a text from you. I'm in San Diego.
Are you all right? Oh, yeah. And I'm like, what the fuck? And I call you.
And I'm like, what's wrong? And you go, oh, you didn't see it.

Speaker 19 And you forward me an article of CNN Plus unblogged.

Speaker 18 Yeah, unplugged.

Speaker 18 Yeah. You know, I had didn't sign with them because I had known, I had heard from the new owners that they were cutting it.
So

Speaker 18 off the record. And they had offered me a pretty big contract and I just declined.
I go, they're cutting you.

Speaker 18 Like, there's no other way this is going down because they need to, because of that ridiculous death.

Speaker 19 I wasn't as confident as you. I thought that they needed to go subscription.

Speaker 18 It was the easiest cut. It was the easiest of all.

Speaker 19 Aren't they kind of bringing it back?

Speaker 19 They are.

Speaker 18 They are. That's what they're doing.
They're going to have to. They have to get in the streaming game.
It's just how you do it and what economics.

Speaker 18 And as much as we love Stephen Colbert, we think he's an amazing talent. He will be just fine, by the way.

Speaker 19 But let me tell you what happens.

Speaker 19 Okay. Stephen Colbert, I think, is making somewhere between 10 and they say they say between 10, I heard between 10 and 20 million.
Okay, so 20 million. And by the way, worth every penny.

Speaker 19 He could make that in two to three years. He could be making that on a podcast with eight people

Speaker 19 and maybe 10 million. But where it works is you use those clips to promote your podcast.

Speaker 19 But triving to, it was like we fell into the same trap at the New York Times where we thought letting Google crawl our data that we would send people that we could monetize.

Speaker 19 No, Google got 99.4 cents on the dollar for taking our content and running ads along the right rail. And the traffic they sent us that we monetized with shitty banner ads didn't work.

Speaker 19 It doesn't work for them. It doesn't,

Speaker 19 I consume, I consume the best four minutes of late night on TikTok. And it doesn't, I don't go, well, now I'm going to go watch the full 60 minutes on CBS tomorrow night at midnight.

Speaker 19 So the model, the late night model, it's pretty much, I think it's already signal, which I think remains quite profitable. But that's once a week,

Speaker 19 70 minutes. It's a ton of talented people bringing together amazing.

Speaker 19 I mean, I think if you had, I think if those shows, and that's a model, maybe, if they went to one night, one night a week, like the weekly recap and made that 60 minutes really outstanding, best guests,

Speaker 19 that might work. But nightly television,

Speaker 19 they just can't do it.

Speaker 18 They just can't do it. Artists can also go direct.
So could the book authors. So could they go to podcasts? They get more, when someone's on my podcast, they are like, oh my God, we saw the move.

Speaker 18 The move is higher than those shows now, which is except for maybe like the view really goosed both our books and stuff like that. But they're expensive.
That's just the way they are. So we'll see.

Speaker 18 I think you're going to see more of this. I think everyone's going to be sharpening their knives at all these shows,

Speaker 18 if not cutting them completely.

Speaker 18 Okay, Scott, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, Trump tries to distract from Epstein by suing Rupert Murdoch in the Wall Street Journal.
Good luck with that old crocodile, Trump.

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Speaker 18 Scott, we're back. President Trump is suing Rupert Murdoch in the Wall Street Journal for defamation over a story about the birthday letter that Trump allegedly sent to Jeffrey Epstein in 2003.

Speaker 18 The article claimed Trump wrote a letter that included a suggested drawing for Epstein's 50th birthday. Trump is denying that it was from saying, quote, I don't draw pictures.
In fact, he does.

Speaker 18 There's a dozen of them available for you to look at, and he's not bad. The lawsuit names Murdoch, Dow Jones, News Corp, News Corp CEO, and two reporters, and seeks at least $10 billion in damages.

Speaker 18 Trump has ordered Attorney General Pam Bondi to produce grand jury testimony tied to the Epstein case, which is a nothing burger. Bondi has has asked a federal judge to unseal the transcripts.

Speaker 18 Trump and Murdoch are two men who love a legal fight. I'm betting on

Speaker 18 Murdoch. And also, just so you know, you said last week Trump would do all manner of things to distract from Epstein, which he's been doing.
This is included in it.

Speaker 18 In addition to this lawsuit, he's now threatened to hold up stadium deal for the Washington Commanders. He also posted a bizarre AI video of Obama getting arrested, and you put up a number of these.

Speaker 18 He's continuing to blame Democrats for the Epstein men. Let's listen to what Senator Amy Klobuchar had to say to Jake Tapper on CNN this weekend.

Speaker 28 The president blaming Democrats for this disaster, Jake, is like that CEO that got caught on camera blaming Cold Play, okay? Like, this is his making.

Speaker 28 He was president when Epstein got indicted for these charges and went to prison. He was president when Epstein committed suicide.

Speaker 18 And also, he was a close friend of Epstein's for many, for a decade or more.

Speaker 18 Any thoughts on this? And the new, the last thing, CBS YouGov poll finds that 75% of Americans disapprove of the administration's handling of matters related to Epstein.

Speaker 18 So it's still, as I noted, is sticking around. It's not going away.
And

Speaker 18 this weekend, pretty much every major newspaper had very, very detailed stories, which I told you linking Trump to Epstein. So solidifying at least the minds of.

Speaker 18 regular people about how close they were. So what do you think about the Murdoch thing and then the distraction element?

Speaker 19 Well, in reverse order, we said this last week and it's happening. Every 24 hours, put out something stupid that the media will go for.

Speaker 19 So I won't let you change the name of, I won't approve a new stadium unless you take the commanders back to the Redskins. Stupid, makes no sense.
The media goes for it. That's okay.

Speaker 19 First off, we should just refer to it, the new team there or the team there as the Washington Epsteins. And it's not Rosi O'Donnell.
It's Rosio Epstein.

Speaker 19 We just need to make sure that he knows this is not working. And

Speaker 19 he has no intention of demanding that they change the name.

Speaker 19 This is unlike the other cases, nuisance lawsuits. I think he knows.
I think Murdoch does not scare easily.

Speaker 19 This is actually, I think, good for Murdoch because it gives people the impression that Murdoch and his properties are somewhat bipartisan and somewhat.

Speaker 18 Well, just that one particularly.

Speaker 19 Well, yeah, but he's just

Speaker 19 the post to slap.

Speaker 18 Yeah. I think he uses different properties for different things.
Like Fox News has been very slow on reporting this stuff, the Epstein stuff.

Speaker 18 New York Post is just either attacking Mom Donnie or not really doing anything here. The journal does,

Speaker 18 I have to say, he's done a great job shepherding the Wall Street Journal and letting them be.

Speaker 19 But go ahead. When the Wall Street Journal puts out this reporting, it's similar to when it, the Wall Street Journal was the first,

Speaker 19 I think, the first media outlet where people thought, wow, this reporting lends me to believe that the wealthiest man in the world is in fact a drug addict.

Speaker 19 Because

Speaker 19 the general sense of the Wall Street Journal is that they are serious journalists and that if they put out something like this, they have double and triple checked it.

Speaker 19 And they have, you know, they are not just throwing out shit for clicks. So this really hurts the president.
I think the president says if I challenge it, it gives the impression that it's not true.

Speaker 19 But I don't think this will end up like the other cases where they end up settling. I think Rupert Murdoch is going to stick up the middle finger and

Speaker 19 this will be dismissed.

Speaker 18 Which is what he wanted to do. He's tried to get at him.
There's an idea because Fox News is associated with the president that Murdoch is. Murdoch is not.

Speaker 18 Like, let's be all that discovery during that last trial where they were very culpable of what they did around Dominion systems.

Speaker 18 It was all these emails saying Trump's a fucking asshole, including from.

Speaker 18 from Tucker Carlson, by the way, all the internal emails and stuff. I think that Murdoch has been sitting in the shallows like an old crocodile that he is waiting to get at Trump.

Speaker 18 He does not like this Republican Party. He likes the Republican Party he can control, which is the old Republican Party, right?

Speaker 18 And so Trump is not that. And so I think he's just been waiting here.

Speaker 18 Very much so that Bob Woodward was sued by Trump and the judge knocked it out. Like he's not giving.
There's nothing. Someone was like, oh, well, what about Paramount giving? What about CVS giving?

Speaker 18 There's nothing he can do to Rupert Murdoch. He can't really pull.
Someone's like, they could pull Fox's. Good luck with doing that.

Speaker 18 Like the stuff he can, he can put the screws even to Elon, although it's hard because we'll talk about that in a minute. It's harder to put the screws to Murdoch of the things.

Speaker 18 He's also 109 years old. I don't think this old crocodile gives a fuck.
And he wants Trump gone so he can then control

Speaker 18 Vance or whoever the next one is. His company, he wants control of that person and he wants Trump gone.

Speaker 18 and so i think he's not going to give at all i'd be shocked if he gave he wouldn't allow it to happen

Speaker 18 if if that at that public i can see all the problems at fox because they're so sloppy they're not sloppy at the wall street journal and they would never have published this without all the receipts never in my experience there

Speaker 19 spectacular journalism goes on there because old media is held to a much higher standard because of section 230 where they can where facebook can circulate massive rumors about dominion and SmartMatic

Speaker 19 that makes what was said on Fox look like a dumpster fire and be immune from that. And then Fox has to pay three quarters of a billion dollars.

Speaker 19 You can bet the lawyers and Rupert Murdoch had said, okay, any story like this, it better be right because I've got a three-quarter of a billion dollar

Speaker 19 scar

Speaker 19 from when we decided to tell our anchors to continue to lie about this, knowing that it was a lie. They have been, their their eyebrows have been singed and burnt off.

Speaker 19 So, the fact that they were willing to say this in a pretty aggressive,

Speaker 19 I mean, it just makes the president look bad, right?

Speaker 18 Yeah, they did a follower this week about more about their relationship, but go ahead.

Speaker 19 And so, what he said is: one, I want a distraction, and two, I need, he needs a distraction every 24 hours. And that's what he's doing right now.

Speaker 19 Every 24 hours, he is in a room with AI and his comps people saying, testing all these ridiculous stories. Do they make us look like idiots? Will we win in court? Doesn't matter.

Speaker 19 Will it distract CNBC, CNN, MSNBC, and everyone else from Epstein's and they'll talk about this? A letter-firing Chairman Powell, changing the name of a football fight.

Speaker 19 I mean, these things are so ridiculous. If anyone believes this is anything but a weapon of mass distraction, I don't think they understand

Speaker 19 this guy's strategy. And this is that, again, this, unlike the other ones, he has no leverage.
Like you said, Rupert does not scare easily. He doesn't care.
He's going to be dead soon.

Speaker 19 I mean, mean, he's, he, this will be, and also I think, I think Rupert's the big winner here.

Speaker 19 I think it comes across as kind of pursuing the truth and as a legitimate, you know, overseeing legitimate journalism. I think, I think Newscore or Rupert, if you will, is the big winner here.

Speaker 18 He has long backed editors of the journal. When they did those, Kristen Grind, who's now at the New York Times, they did those initial Elon stories.
That was a big step out, like, when they did that.

Speaker 18 And they are, they do not, remember they did the one where Elon had slept with Sergei's wife thing?

Speaker 18 They stepped out on that one and they stepped, they will, and they will only do it when it is locked down at the Wall Street Journal. And again, Emma Tucker, the current editor, is fantastic.

Speaker 18 They've had great editors in the past. He does back, he does back people in that at that place.
At Fox, I think he lost control of the situation.

Speaker 18 Either it was Roger Ailes or Tucker Carlson or Bill O'Reilly. That's a different beast for him and a different tool.
He's doing a different. And the New York Post is just

Speaker 18 to write fantastic headlines. It's not meant, it's meant to, it's kind of, to me, the New York Post is him in many ways, but at the Wall Street Journal, he's been a good owner.

Speaker 18 He's been a very good owner. He's never

Speaker 18 never once, and I talked to Rupert a lot when I was covering the internet, and he really did not like the internet people. Never once did he try to pressure me in any way.

Speaker 18 He'd call and say, what do you think of this person? And, you know, but I'll tell you,

Speaker 18 I've been, I haven't really been pressured at many places.

Speaker 19 I don't, I don't don't think I have, actually, oddly enough.

Speaker 18 It doesn't happen, folks. It just doesn't happen.
And it doesn't happen just because the person's Rupert Murdoch. He's a very good owner of the Wall Street Journal.

Speaker 18 And we'll see what happens after he dies. That's going to be a, that's going to be a shit show, but we'll see.

Speaker 18 Okay, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, why Trump can't seem to quit SpaceX.

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Speaker 18 Scott, we're back. The U.S.
government just can't quit Elon Musk. A A review of SpaceX's government contracts, spurred by Musk's feud with President Trump, found most were vital.

Speaker 18 The review found SpaceX to be critical to the Defense Department and NASA. And for example, SpaceX's Crew Dragon spacecraft is the only U.S.

Speaker 18 vehicle certified to fly astronauts to and from the space station. And the company's high-speed internet through Starlink provides national security satellite capabilities.

Speaker 18 You've mentioned the security risk here.

Speaker 18 They are trying to find ways to be less reliant on Musk. It is not new to the Trump administration.
This was a concern of the Biden administration. It's a concern when

Speaker 18 any vendor gets too much power, as it should.

Speaker 18 But, you know, he has created a product that people have. Why don't you talk a little bit about this?

Speaker 18 I had said he's going to have a hard time getting rid of Musk. What I found offensive is his attempts to get rid of Musk were not because he's trying to protect the U.S.
government.

Speaker 18 It's because he was mad at him. So that's my issue with what he was doing here.

Speaker 19 I think the best and the worst product of the last couple of years are from the same person. The worst product is hands down, the Cyberchuck.

Speaker 19 Just looks ridiculously stupid, not well made, stupid price points, stupid positioning.

Speaker 19 Supposedly sales are like 90% off of projections. The best product is Starlink.
It's just

Speaker 19 the delta between everything else and Starlink is staggering on what could be more important. The broadband is like water.

Speaker 19 And this guy's figured out a way to find more potable water at a lower price it costs and the if you were to kind of reverse engineer well what's the secret behind starlink

Speaker 19 87

Speaker 19 i think it's 87 of launches actually 52 of all global orbital launches and 84 of all satellites by mass are from one company and 87 of launches in 2024 in the u.s were were space x and they're basically launching doing a launch every 2.1 days because the Falcon Heavy rocket can put a kilogram into space for 2,000 bucks.

Speaker 19 And the near closest, like the European equivalent, I think it's Ariane 5 or something, it's $9,000.

Speaker 19 And NASA is kind of even like prohibited because they're not allowed to blow up rockets on the launch pad. They just can't do that as a government agency.

Speaker 19 So he has a staggering lead, and it has led to a situation where two-thirds of the low-orbit satellites are controlled by one person, and his blood sugar might decide one day to turn off battlefield communications technology.

Speaker 19 I think where this ends up, one,

Speaker 19 I mean, the reality is it would be fair to say the U.S. doesn't have a space program.
It has SpaceX.

Speaker 19 And that is if we need to bring astronauts home from the space station, we got to call Elon.

Speaker 19 If we want the most sophisticated communication systems in the world and we want to offer it to Ukraine to push back on the Russians. We got to call Elon.

Speaker 19 If you're looking, I mean, Kuiper has to call Elon to put their satellites into space.

Speaker 19 I think where this goes is, I think this is a monopoly that has avoided or evaded the real scrutiny of the FTC and the DOJ. I don't think that's going to happen any longer.

Speaker 19 But at the same time, they don't want to give up that lead and that competence. I think where we end up is something along the lines of where we've ended up with telco.

Speaker 19 And that is, I believe there are only two or three networks nationally because they're very expensive to build.

Speaker 19 ATD and Verizon, I don't know if T-Mobile is a third if they rent, but basically what the DOJ and the FDC. Is that right?

Speaker 19 Basically what the DOJ and the FTC said is like, okay, we understand the rationale for monopoly.

Speaker 19 Basically, cable companies can convince local regulators that only one company can afford to build out all this fiber. It should be us.
So then regulators say, fine, you're regulated monopoly.

Speaker 19 We have a bureaucrat who looks at your pricing. And then what they did with the telco networks is they forced forced them to rent them out at an economically fair price to other MVNOs.

Speaker 19 So for example, Mint Mobile, which is one of the fastest growing telcos in the nation, or was one of the fastest growing telcos in the nation, is on either AT ⁇ T or Team Mobile's network.

Speaker 19 I think that's where this goes, Carol. I don't think you want to kneecap SpaceX.
I think what they're going to do is similar.

Speaker 19 I think they're going to legislate what's happened with Kuiper and say, fine, you have a monopoly. You keep on trucking.

Speaker 19 You keep having the most valuable private company in the world, but you have to lease out your launch capability to other companies.

Speaker 18 Makes sense. That completely makes sense.

Speaker 18 I think any government, whether it's the Trump administration, any administration, Democratic administration, you cannot have one person, especially a single person like Elon Musk, given all the other issues, in charge of these things.

Speaker 18 It's the same thing with Lockheed or whoever.

Speaker 18 We have to have more competition, and that's a way to do it. That's exactly Scott's exactly right.
And we do have a more vibrant cell phone.

Speaker 18 You do have choices because they can rent it out it doesn't really matter it's how they market it what customer service is not the commodity itself which is connection right so yes i think that's a great idea i think that's a great idea i am bothered that they even if i don't like elon musk that they decided to go after him because he didn't get along with the president that should not ever happen it happens all the time i guess but kind of grotesque um trying to trying to get rid of him even if it's right to try to sort of get rid of him or at least create more competition um to review things just to screw with someone seems un-American to me.

Speaker 19 It is such an incredible security. Starlink, amongst other things, right?

Speaker 19 They turned off Starlink access for Ukraine during a raid on Russian naval ships in 2022.

Speaker 19 This is one man deciding to basically reshape what might happen in terms of the invasion, the successful or unsuccessful invasion. of Europe.

Speaker 19 The American military has been quietly building a dependence on Starlink. Most notably,

Speaker 19 our most important, in my opinion, our most impressive weapons is our ability to deliver massive

Speaker 19 nation-like violence anywhere in the world through our,

Speaker 19 well, not our satellites, how we communicate, but our satellites, which our carrier squadrons depend upon. What if all of a sudden

Speaker 19 we deploy our carriers to a hotspot, even a hot war, and he decides to turn off Starlink? How do you think these carriers defend against incoming drones?

Speaker 18 Yeah, you have to have other capabilities, 100%, especially as we go cyber with war, which is where it's headed, obviously.

Speaker 19 The U.S. government also rewarded SpaceX a $537 million contract for Starlink services for Ukraine's military.
So

Speaker 19 the most impressive component of Musk's universe and the most dangerous monopoly in the world right now is the same company. It's SpaceX and specifically Starlink.

Speaker 19 And I don't think you, I think you want to incent him, give him the economic upside of this incredible engineering feat and the fact that good for him, he's established monopoly power.

Speaker 19 But for security reasons and economic reasons, I think you're going to, A, on a military level, ensure that he has no decision capability and there is no off switch within his ketamine-laced fingers.

Speaker 19 And two,

Speaker 19 that other companies have access to that infrastructure such that he just...

Speaker 18 They can build out competitors. They have been sending Gwen Shotwell here.
She was apparently here for a meeting with the Trump people. She is the CEO of

Speaker 18 SpaceX. More Gwen Shotwell, less Elon Musk.
She's well-respected within the defense industries, has been a quiet, competent executive,

Speaker 18 though she defends him for bad behaviors.

Speaker 19 Let me ask you this. Someone asked me who was the, I'm in this, this Netflix show I'm wearing on, they said, who's the most powerful female tech executive? And I said, Gwen Shotwell.

Speaker 19 Would you agree with that? Yes, I would. Yeah.
Yes, I would. Quiet.

Speaker 18 Yes, 100%.

Speaker 18 But don't mention Cheryl Sandberg because you're not allowed to under the terms of Darkness.

Speaker 19 Not allowed to. Nor my erectile dysfunction.

Speaker 18 Nor.

Speaker 18 And don't you dare make an

Speaker 18 Sheryl Sandberg joke. Do you know?

Speaker 19 And they all said I couldn't make any religious references. Oh, my God.

Speaker 19 What? Anyways, have you met me?

Speaker 18 You are completely godless. I don't know what else to say.
Anyway, and that's why I love you. All right, Scott, one more quick break.
We'll be back for wins and fails.

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Speaker 29 Sometimes, the difference between success and failure comes down to one chance encounter, or following a counterintuitive instinct, or ignoring conventional wisdom to make a bold decision.

Speaker 29 Like when the founders at Palo Alto Networks wanted to redefine cybersecurity for the modern age. Everybody thought we were crazy.
Nobody would use the cloud for cybersecurity.

Speaker 29 Or when mobile gaming giants Supercell could only rewrite the rules of the industry after failure in the company's formative stages.

Speaker 30 Many of the best things we've learned have actually come through failures.

Speaker 29 These are all examples of Crucible Moments, turning points in a company's journey that made them what they are today.

Speaker 29 Hosted by Sequoia Capital's Rolof Bota, Crucible Moments is back for a new season with stories from Zipline, Stripe, Palo Alto Networks, Supercell, and more. Subscribe to season 3 of Crucible Moments.

Speaker 29 New episodes are out now and you can catch up on seasons 1 and 2 at cruciblemoments.com on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. Listen to Crucible Moments today.

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Speaker 18 Okay, Scott, let's hear someone some fails. Would you like me to go first?

Speaker 19 You go first.

Speaker 18 Okay, my fail, I have so many. In-and-Out, a billionaire owner, her name's Lindsay Snyder.
She's a granddaughter of the founders. I love an In-N-Out burger.
My kids love In-N-Out.

Speaker 18 We've gone there many, many, many dozens and hundreds of times and when we lived in California. It's moving, it's expanding.
It's moving into the South.

Speaker 18 Eventually, we'll get to the East Coast, probably never.

Speaker 18 She's moving to Tennessee, blaming challenges, running her business and raising her family in California. Let me just say, Lindsay, I get it.
You want to move to Tennessee.

Speaker 18 She's quite, she's a, they're right. They're conservative as as being kind.
They're quite on that side, quite far to the right. I still like your fucking burgers, Lindsay.

Speaker 18 But my business is California made you, made your family's business. If you're going to leave, just leave or stay and help fix it in the way you want to.

Speaker 18 I just think these people leaving the state, even if there's lots of challenges, and I completely agree,

Speaker 18 the lack of gratitude, especially since you stick religious things on your thing, is profound. California made you.
You have a California vibe to you.

Speaker 18 You can't just take what you want and leave and then kick it on the way out. By the way, a lot of those tech executives who left and kicked California

Speaker 18 are back in California because it's hot in Austin and it's hot in Miami and you just can't make fetch happen in many of those places. So

Speaker 18 you move wherever you want, honey, but and your burgers are fantastic, but stop like kicking a state that really did make your family as wealthy as it is. That's my issue with her.

Speaker 18 Again, please eat it in and out. But Lindsay, you're ungrateful and terrible in that regard.
And my positive thing, I would say everyone needs to watch The Gilded Age this season. It's so good.

Speaker 18 If you like, you know, Wealth Porn and all this stuff, Carrie Coons plays Bertha. I just love her.
Every single person on that show, I love.

Speaker 18 And it's really fun. If you want to sort of live in another billionaire era, essentially, and watch them manipulate each other in all kinds of early America, it's the third season.

Speaker 18 It's really hitting its stride. And it's super soapy also and really fun.
And they do a great job on costumes. It's the same guy who did, I believe, Downton Abbey.

Speaker 18 It's the same guy who did Downton Abbey. It's great.
It's really fun. And I'm really enjoying the third season, along with the recent season of the Sex in the City spin-off and just like that.

Speaker 18 People are a lot of hate watching it, but it's totally enjoyable. Same thing.
HBO is a good thing.

Speaker 19 Just like that.

Speaker 18 It is. People are hate watching it.
Oh, awful. I know, but I'm telling you, it's like going up in the ratings because it's like people are hate-watching it or whatever.

Speaker 18 The last episode was actually quite good.

Speaker 18 i i like sarah jessica parker i love her actually and um i just think it's doing really well i like it look it's winning so whatever however you're winning both of those shows are doing really well for hbo good job hbo uh yeah um i i've just looked at i haven't watched the gilded age um

Speaker 19 Carrie Kuhn, I thought, gave the best monologue in the White Lotus.

Speaker 19 She's in it, right? Yes.

Speaker 18 And Cynthia Nixon's in both, both the Sex in the City one and also this one. She plays, she's in both, she's in both shows.
Anyway, it's great. It's a great show.

Speaker 19 It's a great show.

Speaker 18 Terry Coons is so good.

Speaker 19 My win is

Speaker 19 I just interviewed Governor Whitmer, Gretchen Whitmer, and it just struck me every time I talked to, I think it's so easy to be really cynical about our elected officials.

Speaker 19 I think when you get to, when you, when you talk to a lot of these people, you know, raised by,

Speaker 19 raised by a single mother,

Speaker 19 two daughters, three stepsons,

Speaker 19 you know, very open about, didn't didn't have her shit together in high school, went to Michigan State, then got her act together, went to law school. And it's just a very impressive person.

Speaker 19 And it just reminded me that there really are a lot of people who give up a lot of economic upside to be great public servants. And I enjoyed the conversation with her.

Speaker 19 So I don't know, my win is Governor Whitmer, and Michigan does a pretty good job of being pretty bipartisan. They have economic growth there.

Speaker 19 They have good quality of life, trying to keep affordability or, you know, building a lot of housing, great universities?

Speaker 19 Anyways.

Speaker 18 Go, Michigan. Do you think she'll run? Just curious from talking to her.
I don't think she will.

Speaker 19 I assume that anyone who calls me and comes on my podcast is running for president. Okay.
Why would they do that? To hang out with my charming widen.

Speaker 18 Because she's a good penis joke. She likes a good penis joke, I'm sure.

Speaker 19 She spent an hour and a half on my podcast with me. Anyone who calls, anyone who takes an interest in me is

Speaker 18 usually

Speaker 19 asking for money or finding her for president. Well, maybe both.
By the the way, I immediately heard from public broadcasting. What's it called? PBS, NPR, KBS.
NPR. KBS, yeah.
ED.

Speaker 19 The corporation of public broadcasting. As soon as I said I was donating money, I immediately, that minute, good for that.

Speaker 18 I called you.

Speaker 19 Good for that. I got a nice email from the director of development saying, I'm here to facilitate the wire.
Yeah, the wire.

Speaker 19 And then said, we'd love to set up a call and hear about your vision. And I'm like, oh, God.

Speaker 19 Here we go. Here's the check.

Speaker 19 Here you go. Anyways, my win is the great state of Michigan and Governor Whitmer.
My fail is I'm really on this thing.

Speaker 19 I think we should, I'd like to see a Democrat or somebody propose legislation that

Speaker 19 unless it's in the agency of a military operation or a national security threat,

Speaker 19 I just don't think any civic employee should ever be allowed to wear masks. I just,

Speaker 19 I find.

Speaker 19 If you look at what's going on, the Obama administration was actually deporting two to 3x per month the number of immigrants as the Trump administration. So what do we have here?

Speaker 19 We have something that is ineffective, that is purely for performance and fear.

Speaker 19 And when a government is now getting more funding than the FBI just to instill fear in citizens and create distractions and cosplay macho,

Speaker 19 you got to think, well, not only is that strange, but also the thing that leads to bad behavior and creates that

Speaker 19 atmosphere of fear that is ineffective is a lot of it is these masks. And I've been thinking a lot about identity.
I just don't think

Speaker 19 people who we pay to enforce the law to perform a civic function should be hiding their identity.

Speaker 18 Agree. That's the life they've chosen.

Speaker 19 Well, look, if you're a Navy SEAL doing special ops, I get it.

Speaker 19 If you're a pilot,

Speaker 19 whatever it might be, I get it. But if you're showing up to Home Depots, take the fucking mask off.
I want to see who you are. I want to see how you acquit yourself.

Speaker 19 I want to see that you have some sort of fidelity to the law and just

Speaker 19 hold yourself to a certain level of humanity when people know. It's a pretty basic standard to hold your actions to your identity.

Speaker 19 And the people who should be most, who should have the most responsibility for that are the people charged with upholding our laws and giving people confidence that their tax dollars and their government are acquitting themselves in an honorable, decent way.

Speaker 19 Anyways, I'm, I'm, and by the way, I don't think if you're engaging in hate speech on campus, I'm not sure you should be allowed to wear a mask either.

Speaker 19 And I don't know if you can enforce that, but I would like to see the chancellors of universities say, if you show up and just to be

Speaker 19 all face.

Speaker 18 Show y'all face. Yeah.

Speaker 19 Look, if you want to show up and start saying things, masks are not allowed.

Speaker 18 That's probably less enforceable. Probably.

Speaker 18 The other one is too, probably. But I agree.
Government employees certainly should. There you go.

Speaker 19 When's the last time you ate it in and out?

Speaker 18 Oh, just the last time I was in San Francisco.

Speaker 18 i eat it all the time every time my brother my brother lives and when i go see jeff um he has one i when i go south to silicon i i eat my kids love it i have the one with the with the lettuce i don't with the um what's it called when you eat it with that with just lettuce with animal style no animal style that's what alex eats that's when you have all that crap on it like alex eats animal style that has all kinds of i don't have the heart for it um but it's great it's wonderful their shakes are good their fries die in five seconds, but they're delicious in that five seconds that exists.

Speaker 18 I love them. I still think she should be grateful to California and stop like pissing on it.
Anyway,

Speaker 18 we want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business tech or whatever's on your mind.
Go to nymag.com slash pivot. Send a question for the show or call 85551-Pivot.

Speaker 18 Elsewhere in the Kara and Scott universe, last week on On with Kara Swisher, I spoke with writer and former advice columnist E. Jean Carroll and her lead attorney, Roberta Kaplan, two badasses.

Speaker 18 Since Trump started defaming Carol, she's gotten hundreds, if not thousands, of threats, including death threats, but she's not backing down and she's waiting to get her money and she's closer than ever to getting the first payment.

Speaker 18 We'll see about the second, but it looks like she probably will get them. Let's listen to a clip.

Speaker 31 I don't care if they shoot me. I don't care.
I'd like to get shot in the arm. I'd like to get shot.
I don't want to be shot in the head and dead. I don't care.
I do not care.

Speaker 31 I want everybody in the country to get off their lazy asses and walk outside. Look at their neighbors.
That's what I'd like people to do. It's stupid to be afraid.
Why live your life that way?

Speaker 31 I've been here 81 years. I'm not going to waste the last of it worrying about that guy in marmalade-colored makeup.

Speaker 19 I really like her. Go, girl.

Speaker 18 Go, girl. She's so badass.
She's listened to and she's joyful. And she won her cases, both jury trials, and he keeps making trouble.
I think that shows you. Roberta Kaplan did an amazing job.

Speaker 18 She also won against the assholes in Charlottesville. She's a winner in many ways.
So we'll see. That's the show.

Speaker 18 Thanks for listening to Pivot and be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back on Friday.
Scott, read us out.

Speaker 32 Today's show is produced by Lara Naimanzoy, Marcus Taylor Griffin, and Kevin Oliver. Ernie Intertod engineered this episode.

Speaker 5 Thanks also to Jude Burrows, Mia Severa, and Dan Shallan.

Speaker 32 Nishak Kuru is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts.

Speaker 19 Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform.

Speaker 32 Thanks for listening to Pivot, New York Magazine, and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nmymag.com/slash pod.

Speaker 19 We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business care.

Speaker 32 Have a great rest of the week.

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