MAGA teens, Fyre Fest and Twitter wars

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Hi, everyone.

This is Pivot from the Box Media Podcast Network.

I'm Kara Swisher in the frozen tundras of Washington, D.C.

And I'm Scott Galloway.

Not in Davos, Kara.

I'm not in Davos.

I was not not invited again.

Oh, well.

Where are you now?

What worldwide

capital are you in?

I'm in the second greatest city in the world.

I'm in London.

What's the first greatest?

Come on.

New York.

Greatest city.

Oh, my God.

Amalgam of creativity, grit, and amazing food and nightlife.

I don't know what else to do.

We're going to go into it.

We have a lot to talk about.

We're going to get right to it.

Okay, I'm glad you're in London and enjoying your worldwide tour.

Where are you going next?

Like, let's see, London, Paris, Rome.

Rome is next, I guess.

I suppose.

No, I head home to see the kids tomorrow, a 10-hour flight to Miami where I'll have more jet lag.

By the way, how do you respond to jet lag?

Does it put you in an even worse mood?

No, I do not.

I do not ascribe to jet lag.

I do not accept it as part of my reality.

And so I just don't have it.

That's how I do it.

It just doesn't happen to you?

It doesn't happen to me.

I just, I have just mind over matter.

Oh, God, it makes me so depressed.

No, it doesn't at all.

Not me.

Uh-uh.

I just pretend it doesn't exist.

It was perfect.

It was a great.

I do that with a lot of things in life, Scott.

All right, before we get to some, including people on Twitter and the right wing who hate me this week, we'll talk about that later.

Before we get to some bigger stories, week, how was your showtime with Cheryl Samberg?

Talk about what, so she appeared at DLD where you were, and let's hear what she had to say about Facebook first.

Trust is so fundamental to the work we do, and we need to earn back people's trust.

And we're not going to do that with words alone, but with the actions we take.

Standing before you today, I can tell you that I and everyone at Facebook understands and accept the deep responsibility we have.

We have acknowledged our mistakes.

We are listening, we are learning, and we are making progress.

All right, so what do you think?

So

I liked her talk a lot more than the rest of the audience, and I hated her talk.

Oh.

I thought she was, it was really flat, very scripted, but literally the audience was angry.

Really?

Oh, so they just weren't having it, especially it was a European audience, too, right?

Yeah, they just

weren't having it.

They just weren't buying it.

And a couple things that I thought were more interesting was she showed up with about 20 people, which I guess she probably needs security or has an entourage.

She does.

And everyone was literally just barking.

I was in the speaker's lounge.

Everyone was barking about how terrible it was and how tone-deaf she is.

And then she walked in, and it was literally like

their long-lost lover, friend, whatever.

Everyone jumped to their feet.

Cheryl.

And I'm like, oh my God, how can these people not be in a filter bubble?

And I had a couple observations.

One is,

I don't want to say felt bad for her, but she just seemed like, I just get the sense, you know what, she's just been through a lot.

And she looked just sort of, yeah, she's had a lot.

I mean, she's taken a lot.

And I'm convinced she's just going to get the hell out of Dodge.

You could tell she just seemed not happy, or maybe she was just, she was just jet lagged.

But it was, it was.

It was awful.

And it's pretty hard to be awful at a German conference.

I mean, some of these speakers are literally like, you know, on technology.

You must move digital to the center of the organization.

You know, it's also

just not that exciting.

So what was the reaction to it?

Essentially, she was on the I'm Sorry worldwide tour that Mark has taken previously.

Trust is fundamental.

We're so sorry.

We've acknowledged our mistakes.

We are listening.

We are learning.

That kind of,

how was it received?

Boom, you're done.

Everyone just sat in the audience, just totally non-plus.

The way I would describe it is it went from flat to people who were depressed to people who were angry.

People were openly hostile about what she said.

Because if you had said it was a tape from 2016, no one would have known.

So, what should she have said?

We really,

you know, I think it's getting to the point where it's almost impossible for her to dig her way out.

And

my viewpoint is: it's time to turn the page.

I think at some point, a management team loses so much credibility.

People don't believe anything you said.

It's time to turn the page.

I don't think there's anything she can say.

All right, let's think she's done.

Let's replay what you did say.

What can Mark and Cheryl do?

I believe it's very straightforward.

I think they can be fired.

The head of Nissan was put in jail for expense impropriety.

The head of J.

Crew is relieved of its duties because he had a dispute with his board.

We need to remove Mark Zuckerberg as the CEO, kick him up to chairman, ask Cheryl Samberg to move on.

This is not a crime against humanity.

It's not misogyny.

They will both be just fine.

It is time to turn the page at this company and move on.

So you think she's got to go after this performance?

Actually, I think, so first off, I think part of the problem is everyone, we've talked about this, no board wants to be the board to fire the woman.

And because they believe they can't fire Mark, she's become...

Who is really responsible, as you know, I think?

The CEO.

You've said that all along.

At the end of the day, it's him, but he can be.

This is the false or the false flag or the false comfort everyone's fallen into, that he can't be removed.

He can.

It's just that the next day after the board fired him, he could remove the entire board.

But the question is, and I'll ask you this, do you really think he would go full surce and decide to basically burn the village to save it?

Do you think he'd really remove the entire board the next day if they said, look, buddy, you're now chairman.

We're removing you as a.

No, and they weren't going to do it.

Would you know that board?

Oh my God.

You think Teal and Andreessen's going to do anything like that?

Never.

Never.

I'm hoping Kenshenal.

Well, Kenshenal.

There's also the other guy, Erskine Bowles, and then there's a new guy.

The new guy.

They're all, they'll be interesting.

We'll be interesting to see if they'll do anything.

I don't think they will.

I just don't think they will.

They just, you know, we tend towards to try to get into

consensus, and that's what they do, and that's where people like that win, right?

That's the same thing that's going on in Washington.

Anyone that wants to do consensus is weaker, and everyone that stands their ground seems stronger.

So I don't see them.

I don't see anything happening there, my friend.

I'm sorry.

I think they're going to wait.

Hopefully they're going to put their head down and hope the hurricane blows over them.

She's got to be fed up, though, because there's no way she couldn't sense in the audience.

Yeah.

Wow, these people have had it.

These people have just had it.

So

it was awkward.

It felt flat.

It felt depressing.

And it was, okay, there's, I don't think there's anything she can do.

You know what she should have done?

Okay.

You're all pissed at me.

Let me have it.

And then let everybody have it.

At some point, people wear themselves out.

Just come on.

I know.

I know.

What do you want?

What's the worst?

Tell me the worst thing.

Come on.

I can take it.

That's what I do.

Open it to questions.

Actually, that's an interesting idea.

That's what I would have done.

Bring me your best shot.

Come on, I'll take it.

And then I'm going to, and then answer honestly.

You know, and you know, there's the thing is that no matter what she says, she's going to be in trouble.

She's sort of become the lightning rod for him.

All right, next story.

There's so many.

I think there's so many things that were going on.

The government shutdown continues.

Tech and business has halted.

Where do you see any finishing of this?

I mean, it's become, you know, it's become a constant thing on Twitter and everywhere else.

And so

we're on the president.

Yeah.

Like we just.

Well, you're in D.C.

What do you think?

Well, I just was reading about Lara Trump saying everybody should accept the pain, you know, for the greater good.

You know, essentially a very rich lady telling people to suck it up.

And I said it was let them eat gluten-free cake.

That was my version.

Let them eat some gluten-free.

Yeah.

That family.

What a bunch of kleptocrats.

Honestly, and then telling people to suck it up.

I just, if I was a federal worker, I would not be pleased with that comment in any way.

Like,

they can do this horrible, you know, grab for everything and every piece of money they could possibly have, but they need to shut up about it.

That's my feeling.

So, what's the over-under?

I have a briefing.

I was at a big, I threw a very important D.C.

party last night, and nobody seemed to, there were Republicans and Democrats there, and nobody seemed to have a clue about what was going to happen.

Hold on.

I threw a very important D.C.

I did.

Party last night.

For Jean Case, Steve Case's wife, who's written, who is also a person of her own right.

She runs their foundation.

And

she has written a book called Be Fearless.

And we met 27, eight years ago when I started covering AOL when it was a tiny company.

She was head of communications and policy.

And

they had just, it was a startup.

And so she's written this book.

And I'm going to have her on the podcast.

But so it was great.

And Steve Case and I reunited again, which was nice.

Steve Case, AOL.

He's great.

I have to say, I like Steve Case.

Don't tell him I told you that, but I do.

He's been very thoughtful about stuff like this from very early on.

His book was all about this issue about taking more responsibility, and this was two or three years ago.

And by the way, back to DLD.

So in college, we had fraternities as a means of stereotyping each other.

And it was helpful just to do shorthand.

Like Delta Sigs were losers, but they had the best pot.

Right.

You know, the Phi Caps were like kids from small towns who scored well on the SAT.

The new fraternity at DLD and across these conferences is everyone asks you the same question.

They all say, oh, are you headed to Davos?

All of them, literally.

Are you headed?

And I'm like, no, I wasn't invited.

Stop asking me.

I am not.

I wasn't invited.

I am not going to Davos.

But everybody asks you the same thing.

All right.

Next thing.

I think we should we talk about the Covington High School?

Or we've had enough of that.

You missed that here.

And the, is the, is the dress black and blue or white and gold?

Well, you got into trouble.

You got into a little bit of a Twitter war.

And it's, you define a person by their enemies.

So I think you're doing pretty well here.

Tell us about that.

Well, you know what I did?

Is I was furious.

When I saw that video, I was furious.

And I obviously was manipulated.

But

tweeted something.

I shouldn't, I made a comparison to Nazis that I shouldn't have made, and I shouldn't have done it.

And I should have watched all the videos before I said something.

That said, a lot of the emerging videos show not everyone.

Nobody's an angel here in this situation.

I just don't know if I should have said something about misbehaving boys on a trip to Washington, even if they were wearing those awful hats.

And that maybe is not my business, and I shouldn't have used that comparison.

It's still, it's still, you know, it's really, again, is what it's become, though, even after I apologize.

like I put it up people are mad and then I apologize and they won't take that you know and I was trying to be reasonable and say here's what happened and and everything is so polarized right now now I'm getting lectures from right-wing people which is by the way and I keep going it's not I don't need your self-righteousness I I'm apologizing because I shouldn't have you know I've it's you can't even apologize anymore and I wasn't doing a bl and then when I apologized people on the left were like you shouldn't apologize look how bad these kids were in these videos and they were some of the things these kids said were gross and I'm like I don't you cannot win with anybody and that's really the problem and you can't have like a cogent thing which is saying look there were these terrible people yelling at these kids who were also sort of out of control because where were the chaperons and some of the kids said terrible things and then this this man came in the middle of it and trying to settle it this this uh native american man and yeah he looks bad but she wasn't you know it just you cannot have a cogent conversation about just a situation that went askew

where everybody's on just

I don't know everybody's on a on a on a trigger that is really very light and and then Tucker Carlson of Fox News attacked me which now makes me a hero to everyone on the left consider Kara Swisher for example she's an opinion columnist of the New York Times Swisher went to Princeton day school and then Georgetown and then got a graduate degree at Columbia She has become rich and famous in the meantime by toadying for billionaire tech CEOs.

She's their handmaiden.

Nobody considers her very talented, and she's somehow highly influential in our society.

Is she more privileged than the boys of Covington Catholic in Kentucky?

Of course she is.

Maybe that's why she feels the needs to call them Nazis, which she did repeatedly.

So

the world's richest Fox News broadcaster is telling me I'm an elite.

He went to the fanciest schools.

And so then I dared him to come on the podcast on Twitter.

Then I went right back to my ways and attacking the people that should be attacked, like Tucker Carlson, who was, you know, who called, who said this country is dirtier because of immigrants.

I've been on with Tucker.

Yeah, with him.

I've been on his show.

Okay.

You go right ahead.

I'm Fox friendly.

I'm Fox friendly.

You know what?

It could have been worse.

You called them Nazis, but you could have accused them of being straight white males.

Well, they were lying.

There wasn't.

You know what?

I should have watched the whole thing.

I may have come to the exact same conclusion, by the way, but I should have taken time and done that.

And I was, you know, I was with my kids, and I just was like, I can't believe these kids are doing this in this world, and I don't want my kids to think this is okay.

So

there's a larger thing here.

I think this stuff's interesting, but not for the reasons people or everyone's talking about.

One, we're in this gotcha culture where people are, I mean, they're kids.

I'm so thankful these technologies were not around when I was in high school.

Yeah, that would be bad.

Because look, okay, they're stupid and they're kids.

Those are synonyms and they should be given some generosity and some leeway.

I think people who tweet should be given some leeway, call them out, but everybody is in such a hurry to be given something they can be indignant about and angry about and go after people.

And they're not really speaking to you.

Anyone who came after you wasn't trying to say to you, hey, I don't appreciate it.

I think you should do it this way.

They're speaking to the audience and they're trying to score virtue points.

It's like one big.

That's exactly right.

I was like, I don't welcome your self-righteous judgment.

I'm just apologizing.

I don't need your.

weigh in.

It was interesting.

On all sides, it was really interesting.

It was, I hate to use the term on all sides, but you're right.

It's virtual, it's virtue signaling, 100%.

And

it was interesting.

I did something wrong, and I said so, but I'm also not going to like go the other direction.

You know what I mean?

Like,

it doesn't come with an extra package of other things.

And so that's what was interesting.

You know, I think I've been pretty good on Twitter about controlling myself.

In this case, I got upset.

I was with my kids.

I shouldn't have done it the way I did.

Again, it could have turned out exactly the same if I had spent hours watching the videos.

But I

I may have been more grounded in terms of what I did.

Anyway,

it was an interesting experience.

And then, you know, culminating in

Tucker Carlson.

I call him Tucky, by the way.

By the way, I think the more interesting thing is as

you stare at your navel and be worried about it.

The good news, Kara, when you really fuck up is that everyone's so self-absorbed they go back to thinking about themselves.

Right.

You just shouldn't worry about it.

I'm not worried about it.

I'm not worried about it.

But Twitter here, Twitter's the big loser because it took this incredible investigative journalism, i.e.

looking at the picture on the account that began promoting this whole tribal mess, to figure out this was a fake account.

It was promoted like crazy.

Right.

It was from an account that was tweeting 140 times a day.

And Twitter has,

despite quote-unquote, their efforts to implement big data and how seriously Jack Dorsey claims his need and his notion and desire to create a more positive dialogue, that Twitter isn't doing a danger.

Well, everybody was manipulated.

Everyone was manipulated and they don't know that they're, I know I was manipulated.

But it's my own fault at the same time.

But yes, you're right.

100%.

This was, there was a great CNN story on this.

It's just, we are being pulled apart by manipulative.

forces that we then give into.

And it's a really, it's an interesting question of what we do.

And

there are consequences to that.

And we should all accept the consequences of what we do.

But at the same time,

it's difficult.

Yeah, you're right.

Maybe this medium can't ever be anything but that.

But again, look, again, as I said, Ocasio used it really well this week.

Again, once again,

to make some points about algorithms, which I think were interesting to talk about, to make some points about how she was portrayed in the media, which I think she made some fair criticisms in a fair way.

So it can be used well.

It absolutely can be used well.

It just is mostly it's not being used well.

But I do think there's solutions, and I want to propose

going to an ad break after that.

Yes,

identity is key.

The problem here is that the people promoting this were not who they said they were.

We don't know who they are, but they're not who they say they are.

And these organizations don't want to engage in actual identity because it would reduce their traffic and their numbers to pitch to advertisers.

Two, we just have to be a little bit more generous with each other and not say shit on Twitter that we wouldn't say to people's faces.

Well, that's a problem.

I'd say a lot of things to people's faces, but go ahead.

Well, that's fine then.

Then go at it.

And then finally, we need these organizations to be,

we need to repeal the content, what's it called, the Content Decency Act,

and make them liable

when

they wreak this sort of havoc and it causes people economic harm.

They should be subject to the same legal liability as any other media company.

Boom!

Boom, Kara.

Problem solved.

Scott, I am so glad you've come up with the solution to all of Twitter.

It's going to be so welcome in the days ahead and the elections ahead.

When we get back, we're going to take a short short break.

Problem solved, Carol.

Problem solved.

All right.

When we get back, we're going to take a short break.

When we get back, we'll be dog walking some people on wins and fails.

And that is a Cardi B reference.

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Back to our show.

We're here with Scott Scott's in London.

I'm in DC.

Scott, wins and loses.

I was just referencing Cardi B.

She told Tommy Laren, who I've been on a a show with, who was just insufferable, that she will dog walk her.

I don't even know what that means.

I'm so old.

You know, my dogs walk me, but that's another issue.

But my dog's cold and stuff like that.

But it was very funny.

Cardi B has been really interesting on media, on social media, especially with the shutdown stuff.

I think she's flawlessly using it in a way that's really fun and interesting.

And, you know,

there's a beef going, as my son calls it, you know, it's a beef, but it's a good, she'd handle it well.

Dog walk, I like that.

I'm going to dog walk her.

Yeah, I have no idea what that reference means.

Anytime I watch Cardi B.

Anytime I see Cardi B or I listen to her, I feel so old like I'm going to slip and break a hip.

I just don't.

I just literally, it's one of those cultural references.

I'm like, oh my God, I feel ancient.

Yeah.

I saw her Coachella, though.

Did you?

I love Cardi B.

I love all these ladies.

I love all every one of them, Beyonce on down.

You know what I mean?

I just think they're great.

They're just like, I love all of them.

Nicki Minaj.

I think they're, it's interesting because they do speak up now.

You know, they often fight with each other.

There was a fight between Nicki Minaj and Cardi B, I think, my son told me.

But I do like that they do speak up in ways and it does have an impact on people and people pay attention.

I like it.

I like it.

I like it.

I like it.

What's your win or fail of the week?

So I thought the CNN discovery around

who is the identity or not the identity showed that old media, I mean, keep in mind this whole Facebook nonsense with Cambridge Analytica, it was a newspaper that broke the story, which when they called, of course, when they called Facebook and said, it appears that data's been harvested, Facebook immediately turned around with Campbell Brown and Sheryl Samberg and said, if you publish a story, we're suing you.

Right.

But old media, I think it was a good week for old media.

Although, going back to the Twitter thing, I think the whole thing could have been solved if Kendall Jenner had been there with a Pepsi.

I think that she could have solved the whole thing, Kara.

And by the way, I bought a case of Pepsi just whenever my wife and I get into an argument, I roll up to her with sad Kendall eyes and I give her a Pepsi.

And she is so fed up with that.

It was funny the first first time, but I got 23 more Pepsis.

All right.

Tasted as shit.

All right.

So that is awesome domestic humor.

Okay.

That is a win.

What is a fail?

A fail.

Let me think.

Oh, I think that it's already baked.

I think the best actress at the Oscars, it's not even a contest.

It's going to be Glenn Close because she boiled a rabbit.

I think that the Academy...

The lady from Roma, I think, is going to win the leading.

Okay, but again, have you seen that?

Yes, I loved it.

Was it great?

It was lovely.

I think the Oscars have become, again,

basically giant virtue signaling.

I don't think the best stuff wins.

The ratings are down like crazy, right?

It's a great movie.

It's not a virtue.

That's a great movie.

Have you seen it?

It's a really good movie.

It's a really good movie.

I'm sorry.

Could it be any more awesome than Black?

It's on Netflix.

You can watch it now.

They just put it in the they got a Netflix got this best picture Oscar nomination, which they'd never done,

but they uh but they put it right on the streaming platform.

Right, you can now watch it on Netflix.

If Rami Malik doesn't win best actor, I'm going on strike.

Oh my gosh.

I am going on strike.

By the way, Netflix, just bringing this back to technology, this is a pretty big deal because

you're going to see Amazon get the Super Bowl.

The guys with the deepest pockets are slowly but surely

taking over media and even in kind of the artistic corners.

Well, definitely Netflix.

We'll see what Apple and Amazon has sort of less so than Netflix, and then we'll see what Apple does.

I don't think it'll be a good thing.

It's a matter of time.

Amazon is now the second largest spender on scripted television, which means they're going to start winning everything and cleaning it up.

They're eventually going to get it.

It really is a matter of resources.

It takes some time because there's

down in Los Angeles, there is something different in the water there.

And they've figured out incredible cultures of these companies, but eventually they'll buy that.

They hired an NBC person, though, right?

To replace the sexual harassing person.

Yeah.

Yep.

Yeah.

I did not know that.

Yes, same woman, a woman who is a really well-regarded executive in NBC, I think an NBC executive.

In any case, it was really great that they got that.

And I think you'll just see more and more of them.

I'll be interested to see what Apple does, if Apple's really, I just don't see them making things, but they've hired some really excellent people.

We'll see if they can muscle their way in here in a certain way.

Tim Cook doesn't look like he'd be super comfortable, you know, hanging with his gang, but we'll see.

We'll see.

We'll see.

I have a one fail, obviously, Rudy Gielani, which is, I can't tell if it's a win for him or a fail.

I can't tell if this, like, I've decided to call it like collusion confusion is what he's saying.

That's exactly right.

He's like, what he's doing is like, whoa, yeah, he did that.

Maybe he didn't do it.

And then by the end, we're going to be like, what?

And then he's going to be like, ah, it was a red light.

So he ran it.

Big deal.

And you're like, whoa,

what?

I just feel like he's either the most brilliant person on the planet or else he's really, truly lost his mind.

And both might be true at the same time.

That's my You're 100% right.

The thing that it dawned on me watching, I thought, this guy's literally lost it.

He's crazy.

And I thought, oh, wait, maybe he's crazy like a fox.

Because what the Russians have mastered, and this guy you all know,

Naval Harris, the author of Sapiens, whose name I just mangled, is that censorship is no longer about holding information or withholding information.

It's about overwhelming people with so much information that they get totally

used.

That's what I try to do with my fourth

podcast a week.

Here I am again.

You can't shoot out everybody so you can say

you said that before.

No, but look what he said.

I wrote that.

Controlling the content, constant content.

Yes, it's true.

But it's one of your favorite terms, muddying the waters.

And that's exactly what he's doing.

He's fatiguing us.

He's saying, well, maybe they colluded.

Maybe they didn't.

Maybe it was worse.

And by the time you get done listening to the guy, you're like, I'm just sick of hearing about it.

And it's also, it'll feel like old news.

It'll be like, didn't he admit to this?

Didn't he admit that already?

Like, literally, it's going to be like, oh, and then it's going to be, oh, he just, he ran a red light.

Like, so what?

So, so what?

He talked to the Russians.

And you're like, I think I care about that.

Like, I I did before.

That whole treason thing should come.

I think treason's bad.

Like, that's where, that's where they're getting.

And he does, like, his Fulcorp press on cable and elsewhere is and online.

And then it's backed by Trump using Twitter.

It's just really,

I think, oh my God, they're geniuses.

And then I'm like, no, they just know how to, they just, it's just completely demanded.

There's a new book out about the White House by someone who was very close to Trump, which paints a shockingly chaotic picture, which I think we're all surprised by.

It's not a button-up, well-run organization.

No, apparently.

There's a lot of cursing.

There's a lot of cursing.

It's literally like the show.

They've lived in reality television for so long, they live their life in reality television.

And so

it's a real mess there.

I just have this feeling that it's going to get worse.

So back to Netflix, have you seen either of the documentaries on the Fire Festival?

Yes, I have.

What did you think of that?

I like the one, the second, I like, I know they paid him to talk, unfortunately.

They may, they disclose it and everything, but I like the second one because it talked about the broader issue of people being manipulated on social media.

So, of course, I would like that one.

But they're both good.

They're both great.

One was on Hulu, one was on Netflix.

It was a lot of stuff for one stupid thing, but I thought it's a great classic tale that has been since the beginning of time.

And I thought it was great.

And I felt bad for these sort of millennials or whoever they were.

I don't know if they were Gen and Z or whatever.

I felt bad for them.

And at the same time, I'm like, ugh, you dumbass.

Like, you know what I mean?

That's how I felt.

Like, I felt bad they were manipulated and taken advantage of, especially some of them who didn't have a lot of money.

At the same time, I was like,

you need to get a life where this doesn't happen to you kind of thing.

So that's how I feel.

You're 100% right.

Anyone who decides to spend $5,000 to go to the Bahamas and see Blink 182 should be screened from the gene pool.

That's just Darwin.

That's just the hand of evolutionary progress saying, okay, these people should be broken, should die alone.

I recommend them highly.

I recommend them highly.

The other one I'm going to watch this weekend is The Valley of the Boom, which has Bradley, whatever the guy from West Wing.

It's all about the beginnings of internet-y kind of thing.

So I'll see if I like it because I was there and I will give a report on it next week.

They just got sent it to me.

It's coming this weekend, or just was this weekend.

All right, predictions.

Predictions, Scott.

I think the government shutdown's over by the time you and I speak again?

Next week, really?

How?

Give me the how, because nobody at my fancy Washington party last night could think of it.

And there were a lot of fancies there.

My sense is that shit's about to get real, that we're on the verge of either a, you know, a disaster or a national security breach that will be directly reverse engineered to the shutdown.

And I think both sides are at the point where they realize they're both parties are incurring substantial risk.

And I think something's going to break here, at least I'm hopeful, because it just, it's so bad for our brand, the U.S.

brand.

It's worse for the president, but it's bad for the Democrats too.

So I think we might see something resembling.

What?

What?

Give me a what?

What are they going to do?

Some sort of deal where both sides claim victory.

It'll be the president, I want to say blinking first or squinting first.

He'll claim that he got what he wanted.

But this is...

He's going out on kind of a limb there.

Don't you think he's going out on a $5 billion limb?

We'll see, but this is, there's reports that the FBI has had to seize investigations around terror.

Oh, yeah.

Anything bad happens in the next, the next time something really bad happens on a national security level, people are going to immediately assign the shutdown to it.

And that is going to be bad for both parties.

Yep, yep.

I think also the TSA thing, the most immediate thing that affects people, I mean, people,

I'm very worried about fruits and vegetables and everything.

Everything the government does is important.

There's a lot of important things the government does.

And I think the TSA thing is going to affect people more because you wait at lines and then the airlines are going to be mad, then businesses are going to be mad.

And it sort of sucks.

It launches us right into a recession, really, in a lot of ways.

And people feel I had a long discussion about my son today and we were sort of iterating it out of where it goes.

We have very intelligent drive-to-school discussions, but that was what we talked about is how do you stop the iterations from stop, you know, how do you solve the problem?

But it seems like both sides are just like on Twitter this week, dug in.

Like literally nobody could be reasonable.

Like my attempt to be reasonable was seen by everybody as, well, no, a lot of people were really nice about it, but it was really interesting.

Like,

I was reasonable, really reasonable.

So, that's my worry: it's impossible to be reasonable.

Another prediction: we talked last week.

I said that 2018, or excuse me, 19 was going to be a rough year for WeWork.

Yeah.

I think it's also going to be a rough year for Tesla.

And I know you love Elon Musk.

I do.

Why do you think that?

Oh, my God.

You so hang with Elon.

I think he's an interesting self-talk.

The selfies with Elsie.

I'm not going to let you talk to him because I'm a handmaid into tech.

My interview with him was not easy, but go ahead.

Go right ahead.

Tucker, Tucker's friend.

Friend of Tesla.

But it's not weighing on your mind.

Yeah, you're clearly over it.

Anyway, so I think Tesla, so any industry, the key to building a big business or a really valuable business is going after an industry that's ripe for disruption, that's pricing has gone up faster than any underlying innovation relative to inflation.

And the auto industry is actually a pretty well-run industry.

And I think Tesla's I think Tesla, so the question is, will Tesla change the world or will they go out of business?

And I think the answer is yes.

But I think we're about to start the latter latter part of that.

I think Tesla is about to have a very difficult year because if you look at, and this is sample size of one, but I have a Tesla and I've been trying to sell it.

And I find it's getting easier and easier to imagine a Tesla-free garage because Mercedes and Audi are coming out with competitive vehicles.

And I think they're just much better at making cars.

While not as visionary, I think Tesla is about to get thwacked by the invisible hand of competition.

I think their issues are around servicing.

I've heard a lot of complaints by people who own them that they can't get them service.

They have a hard time.

I think the next steps are hard.

They are definitely executionally hard.

That said, and again, I'm not a hand-made integrat, but these companies would not have done those things without Elon doing what he was doing.

So

thank you for that.

You know what I mean?

They wouldn't have moved in these directions so aggressively.

They would have changed the world.

100%.

So that's

that's not that's no small thing.

Now, the question is, can he it's still the best of the cars also, from what I understand.

I don't drive one, but I, from people who do it, I think most people think he makes the best car.

And there's something to that, like the quality of what he's making is really high.

And so they have to keep up with that.

And that would be,

if they do that, it's all good for the world, right?

He's sort of accomplished his goals in a lot of ways.

I'm hoping to do another interview with him soon.

I want to do it inside the tunnel.

Inside the tunnel.

Oh, the

boring company?

You mean the tunnel where they move cars?

But you don't, it makes no sense.

You would never own a Tesla that you don't fit the cohort.

You know who owns Teslas?

Who?

It's 100% midlife crisis men because this is what a Tesla says.

A Tesla says, oh, I'm groovy and I'm rich.

Have sex with me.

That's exactly what a Tesla says.

It says, I care about...

No, hold on.

Seriously.

If you drive a Tesla on the East Coast, you're probably getting your electricity from a coal-fired plant, which means you're probably putting more emissions into the air than if you drive a combustion car.

But if you're a 55-year-old guy in the midst of a raging midlife crisis and you want to signal to the world, I'm not only groovy and hug trees, but I'm also rich.

Have sex with me, you buy a Tesla.

I see.

All right.

Tesla is literally a midlife crisis

on steroids.

All right, listen to me.

I am doing a column.

I'm getting rid of my car completely.

I'm not going to have a car again in my life.

In D.C., you can get around with a car.

I will.

You can get around without a car?

Dead.

In D.C.

I don't have a car here.

I borrow my exes to use it sometimes.

I'm going to use, I'm not going to not drive a car, but I'm not going to own a car anymore.

I am selling my car in San Francisco.

You're going all Uber?

I'm going all Uber, all like those, you know, quick rental cars.

What are they called?

Fast car, whatever.

I'm doing all Uber.

Okay, so if you do that.

Non-ownership.

We should auction.

Let's do this.

Let's auction your fiesta off for charity, and I'm in for $2,500.

If it doesn't go for $2,500.

There's no fiesta.

There's no

auction a fiesta.

No, I'm not.

Oh, that's not a bad idea.

For charity.

Seriously.

Who wants it, though?

I mean, that's my whole point.

Let me just tell you why, and then we'll finish up.

Here's why.

A hundred years ago, when I first got to the Wall Street Journal in the mid-1990s, I wrote a piece saying called Cutting the Cord.

And it was all about that I'm never going to have a landline phone.

And there's a picture of me with those giant sort of clown scissors with wires wrapped around me.

It was a little SM.

And it was me cutting the cord.

And I wrote a story and I will send it to you.

It was about me.

I said, someday you will not have a landline phone.

You will not have a thing in your office.

You will not have a car.

You don't have a car.

You will all be in mobile.

I will never buy another car again,

ever.

I'll be dead.

That is my, that is what I'm writing about.

I will be dead.

I will never, I have bought cars.

I am done with buying cars.

So that is my story.

That's going to be my call.

And so you're fairly bearish on the auto industry as a whole.

I mean, everyone has been saying that.

Because there'll be fleets of cars.

There'll be, no, because I'm not going to not drive in a car.

How silly.

I'm going to get an Uber.

I'm going to, I will rent a car when I need it, but I will not own a car.

I will not have insurance for a car.

I will not have

AA.

I will not have tire problems.

I will not buy gas.

These are all the things I'm not going to do.

And that's what I'm writing about.

Thank you very much.

I just love to roll up.

I love to roll up to my kids' school, I'm an overpriced car,

people, and say, hey,

the big dog's here.

He's the professor, but he has a nice car.

He's so interesting.

Yeah.

If you've ever considered therapy, it's an interesting option for you.

A car is really important to your identity.

Seriously.

Not Kara Swishers.

I'm done.

I'm done with the automobile.

You've had it.

You've just had it.

I love scooters.

I'll ride scooters.

I'm not going to knock it out.

Oh my God, you're on scooters?

We're not going to go to the house.

That's ridiculous.

We got to go.

We have just a few minutes.

You're on a scooter.

Yes.

I love scooters.

You must make fun of me and my scooters.

Which brand of scooter do you grab?

Whatever scooter's lying on the sidewalk, I just grab it.

I don't care.

I don't have any.

I don't own one.

I'm not going to own them.

I rent them.

They're all over my hipster neighborhood in D.C.

and my hipster neighborhood in San Francisco.

I get on the scooters.

I ride them.

I have my little helmet.

It's very nice.

I like my little world.

You got to send a picture out of that.

You can't take a picture on a scooter.

That is like a mistake, but I will send you a scooter picture.

I will put it up.

I will put it up.

But I love scooters.

Anyway, Scott, I will talk to you back.

I'll still be here in D.C.

And you will be in Miami.

So we'll be talking next week.

There's going to be a lot to talk about.

The FTC fine for Facebook will probably be up by then, a whole bunch of things.

So I look forward to talking about it.

I think you should bring us back together.

I think you should go scooting with Tucker Carlson.

He lives in D.C.

You know, where I tape for CNBC is the same building that I should go up to Fox and go, hey, boy.

Hey, guy.

Hey, girl.

Hey, Tucker.

Hey, girl.

That's what I'd say.

Hey, Kiri.

Kira, Kira, Winnie.

He's got such a high voice.

Kira, winner.

It's like, oh, my God.

People like you.

He always says that.

Kiera, people like you.

I can't do that.

My mother wrote a letter to him.

She was mad.

She's a Fox News fan, and she's not watching Tucker Carlson.

He wrote a very indignant letter to him.

And she was like, you know, everything he said was untrue.

I said, it might catch a clue about Fox News.

But you're clearly over this.

Listen to you.

No, I'm just like, get over it.

No, No, why don't we get over it?

Look, you can say I'm a crazy left-wing San Francisco liberal lesbian, but you cannot say I'm untalented.

I'm sorry.

That is not allowed.

No, that's unfair.

That's not allowed.

That's unfair.

Seriously,

find a mannequin, put a bow tie on it, stick it in the trunk of your fiesta, and drive it off a bridge.

I'm going to find Tucker Carlson, give him a big Karaswisher hug.

All right.

Okay, Scott.

We'll talk next week in the same time zone.

Rebecca Sinanis produces the show.

Nishad Kirwa is Vox Media's executive producer of audio.

Thanks also to Eric Johnson.

Thanks for listening to Pivot from Vox Media.

We'll be back next week for more of a breakdown on all things tech and business.

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