Instagram Goes PG-13, ChatGPT Allows Erotica, and Netflix Grabs Podcasts

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Speaker 2 Sam Altman saying, we shouldn't be the morality, police. No, no, actually, you should.

Speaker 3 Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network.
I'm Kara Swisher.

Speaker 2 And I'm Scott Galloway.

Speaker 3 Scott, guess where I am? Where are you? Los Angeles, your favorite place. You love Los Angeles.
Yes.

Speaker 2 And what are you doing there?

Speaker 3 I am working on one of the last interviews for this secret documentary

Speaker 3 with the hacking guy.

Speaker 2 Worst kept secret?

Speaker 3 The hacking guy. Yeah.

Speaker 2 I met him at the Aspen gathering.

Speaker 3 Oh.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Thoughts? Did you discuss all your body

Speaker 2 hacking?

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Well, of course course, you wanted to know my secret.

Speaker 2 And I said, well, actually, you know,

Speaker 2 other than, you know, the lower facelift, the chin implant, my eyes done, the Picolaser, the fractal laser, the vitamin A, vitamin D, NAD, and testosterone shots. It's all just genetics.

Speaker 2 I guess I'm lucky. I guess I'm lucky.
Oh, and I forgot to mention I've worked out four times a week for the last 40 years.

Speaker 3 I think that's called epigenetics, the things that you do to affect yourself.

Speaker 2 I think it's called narcissism and a a midlife crisis. It started at the age of eight.

Speaker 3 We're going to talk about that topic because I do think a lot of this is born of narcissist. See, I feel like if I insult him, I'm insulting you.
But

Speaker 3 here we are.

Speaker 2 You know what, though? It's not easy. It's not easy being a four.

Speaker 3 Like when I was younger.

Speaker 2 Well, anyways, when I was younger, I was handsome. That was really good.

Speaker 2 I'm getting to the point now. I think being really ugly is pretty easy because you just sort of lean into it and give up.
Like, I'm almost there. I'm ready to lean into the ugly.

Speaker 3 Ugly's unattractive, you know. Ugly can be unattractive.
It can be attractive, excuse me.

Speaker 2 That's illuminated. Sounds like you won journalism awards in college.

Speaker 3 I did.

Speaker 2 I know you did.

Speaker 3 That's why I brought it up. Fun award.
Let's bring that back for people.

Speaker 2 He's brought it up several thousand times.

Speaker 3 When I find that medal in my basement with my Bitcoin, I'm going to wear it every episode.

Speaker 2 Wear it as a belt. Anyways,

Speaker 2 but it's not easy being like, the most difficult place is being mediocre looking. It's like when I had great hair, that was awesome.
I actually like like having a shaved head.

Speaker 2 It was when I was losing my hair for 10 years that it was a pain.

Speaker 2 I'm in the transition phase. I'm transitioning from modestly good looking to very definitely not good looking.
And it's the transition that's painful.

Speaker 3 I hate to pay you a compliment, but I think you're very good looking. Go on.
I'm sorry. My mind is.
Dude, you're very classic, dude. You're very classic looks, I think.

Speaker 3 Classic?

Speaker 2 No one's ever described my look as classic.

Speaker 3 Yeah, but I think Larry David's good looking too, I guess.

Speaker 2 Oh, my God. You just blew it.
You literally just blew it.

Speaker 3 it. I did that on purpose.
Let me think.

Speaker 3 Patrick, the guy who was Stewart. You have a very Patrick Stewart.

Speaker 2 Patrick Stewart. I've heard that.

Speaker 3 Yeah, if you had a British accent, it wouldn't work for you.

Speaker 2 I get Ivan Lindel, Bruce Stern, and Ryan Reynolds drunk uncle.

Speaker 3 Oh, no. I would say, oh, I like Bruce Stern.
Yeah, you have that sort of face. Let me hear your British accent.

Speaker 2 No, I can't do accents anymore. It sounds like a dead language twin speaker.

Speaker 3 You do your dad one, your Scottish one.

Speaker 2 I do access that. But I need a few drinks for that one.

Speaker 3 You could do French. You could move to France.
You could do the French accent.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 2 The cheese-eating surrender monkeys. Was that too much? Too much.

Speaker 3 What's too attractive? I don't know if I was, you know, I'd be making out with you right now.

Speaker 3 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 3 That will never be. That's what happens when I start.
We will never be arrested in a

Speaker 2 park. We're never going to, we're never going to find either.
We'll never find you topless in a car. We might find me topless in a car.

Speaker 3 Yeah, that's true we'll find you topless on stage gosh you got so much feedback we got so much feedback why did people love that so much i felt they went together nicely because the gold coin story i did not think was going to land honestly and that it did like terrifically and then the arrest one people loved both of them no but the thing is when you're arrested twice it's a pattern

Speaker 2 like you're definitely everyone's like what a gangster because if you're arrested once who knows you're in college you never know right or you get pulled who knows but arrested twice definitely means yeah you know you you you fought the law and the law won

Speaker 3 i almost got arrested one other time where uh oh you know when these sort of local police officers can be involved lesbian sex because i'm here for no this guy was yelling at a lady and um and i intervened and he was like being really abusive he is one of those like cops i i love i like most cops actually i've always had relatively good well most people some people don't other people my favorite stripper is the cop

Speaker 3 it's true. Oh, I went to a stripper once.
They had a cop strip. Yeah.

Speaker 3 The hanger club.

Speaker 3 How are you getting me to tell these guys? I don't know.

Speaker 2 I have a loyalty card.

Speaker 3 I went actually, I just heard from all my college friends. They're all coming to DC and we're going out, and they were kind of wild.
They were a wild gang and like always drunk and everything.

Speaker 3 And I was like the good one. And like, I'd study and come.
They like you'd come back and there'd be nine guys they made out with on the floor of our place.

Speaker 3 But we all went to a place for one of my roommates' birthdays called the Hanger Club in Get It Hanger, Hanger. And they would let the strippers in.
I went to one of those.

Speaker 3 It was, it was something else. Were you out in college? No, no.

Speaker 3 But it was too.

Speaker 2 So you were dating men or just Craig Carlos? Vaguely.

Speaker 3 Vaguely. You know, I had sort of stopped.
I had a four-year high school boyfriend, essentially. And then I've had boyfriends all the way through.

Speaker 2 But I had the same boyfriend for four years? Yeah. Yeah.
Wow. Are you guys still in contact?

Speaker 3 A little bit. A little bit.

Speaker 3 I haven't talked to him in a while. I haven't talked to him in a while.
He's great. He's a great guy.

Speaker 3 His name is Chris Price. I'll say it.
He's really nice. He was really nice.
Yeah, we were in 10th grade until his freshman year of college. So I broke up once in the middle of it.
I knew I was gay.

Speaker 3 I should have not done that. I shouldn't have gone out at the time.

Speaker 3 By that time. I should have not.
I should have not. I should have said something.
But one didn't do that then, Scott. He was lovely.

Speaker 3 I was a really good girlfriend because I put out because I didn't care.

Speaker 2 No, you're probably pretty easygoing.

Speaker 3 Yeah, why not? Like, what do I care? Anyway, we do have a lot to get to today, including Instagram going PG-13 and OpenAI going in the opposite direction with erotica.

Speaker 3 But first, leaked texts from messaging platform Telegram revealed leaders of the young Republican groups exchanged racist, sexist, and anti-Semitic texts over the span of seven months.

Speaker 3 The chats included jokes about enslavement, negative comments about minorities. They're really gross.

Speaker 3 I'm not going to repeat them, but they're like, think of the worst thing and then make it worse, was what they were. And discussions about raping enemies and driving them to suicide.

Speaker 3 And if you see the pictures of these people, each one looks like an insult, honestly.

Speaker 3 The Young Republican National Federation said it was appalled by the language and suggested those involved must resign. But as usual, J.D.

Speaker 3 Vance, couch potato, took the opportunity to criticize a Democratic Virginia's AG candidate who was texting scandal of his own regarding political violence. That guy is terrible, but of course, J.D.

Speaker 3 Vance can't possibly just say sorry.

Speaker 3 Vance called the response to the Republican group text pearl-clutching in comparison. Let's listen to a clip of him on the Charlie Kirk show.

Speaker 3 He's going to have a great job as a podcaster when he leaves office.

Speaker 2 But the reality is that kids do stupid things, especially young boys. They tell edgy, offensive jokes.
Like that's what kids do.

Speaker 2 And I really don't want us to grow up in a country where a kid telling a stupid joke, telling a very offensive, stupid joke, is caused to ruin their lives.

Speaker 2 And at some point, we're all going to have to say, enough of this BS.

Speaker 3 I'll tell you who's enough of this BS. It's J.D.
Vance.

Speaker 3 Some individuals exposed in the message has been fired. At least one young Republican group has been disbanded.

Speaker 3 What do you think of this? Because it really was over the top. And, you know, we do, it's not canceled cultures back, but it was pretty horrible.
Like, it was shocking. I was even surprised.

Speaker 3 Maybe I shouldn't have been. What did you think?

Speaker 2 Initially, all else being equal, I sort of agree with JD Vance in the sense that

Speaker 2 you can pose for the woke ring light.

Speaker 3 I'm not going to put, don't, don't always pull

Speaker 2 woke.

Speaker 3 Don't always bring woke. That's your excuse.
When you're losing an argument, you say woke, but go ahead. Move on.

Speaker 2 Anyways, so I empathize with the notion that we had the luxury of not having a digital world where every

Speaker 2 ridiculously offensive, stupid thing we did. I mean, the shit, the, the shit we did in college, I look back on and

Speaker 2 I thank God I wasn't involved. Now, having said that.

Speaker 3 Can I just interject for people from the city?

Speaker 2 No, because you're going to steal my thunder and then everyone's going to come on and say, okay, go, Carol.

Speaker 2 All right.

Speaker 3 I know all the tricks.

Speaker 2 These aren't children. Some of these,

Speaker 2 some of these people specifically, some of these men are not even young men. They're 31 and 35.

Speaker 2 Two,

Speaker 2 he's the wrong messenger for this because he's totally inconsistent. If this was the

Speaker 2 young Democratic chat, he would have ordered a gunship and fucking the Army Rangers to their homes. And this is the same group of people that says that a joke about

Speaker 2 Donald Trump

Speaker 2 talking about a ballroom when asked about Charlie Kirk is so offensive that it should be removed from the air.

Speaker 2 So it's incredibly hypocritical and inconsistent for Vice President Vance to say anything about, come on, guys, it's just speak. It's just, you know, bros, frad kids going to be frad kids.

Speaker 2 And also, these are not children. And when you look at what they said,

Speaker 2 I don't like, there is a certain gotcha culture where the media goes crazy around calling people out. But the reality is, when you read these texts, these young men or

Speaker 2 adults, these adult men are about to learn a valuable life lesson in that there is no context for which these types of conversations or statements are acceptable.

Speaker 2 And distinctive whether they're racist, bigoted, whatever, homophobic,

Speaker 2 it should logically, practically from a common sense standpoint, hurt their careers because

Speaker 2 these people just lack so much common sense and they have such poor judgment to not only think these things, but to put them down in a text chat.

Speaker 2 So look, but again, for me, this all comes back to the same thing. Go with it because it's one more day we're not talking about Epstein.

Speaker 2 I think in the big picture, this really isn't, this is a pimple on the pimple of what's going on in this country.

Speaker 2 It's a bunch of fucking idiots who shouldn't, who should have trouble getting a job because this will come up in their Google searches.

Speaker 2 And it's a good life lesson for young people, especially young men who are more risk aggressive and

Speaker 2 more prone to say really stupid shit.

Speaker 2 And I do believe, and I've said this about the campus protests, I'm less bothered by what a 19-year-old says at Cornell than I'm by what some of the faculty have said, tweeting and some of the statements they've issued.

Speaker 2 I think that they've had time to develop some critical thinking skills.

Speaker 3 I agree.

Speaker 3 What the kids say, I do give a wide birth to teenagers. And also, that said,

Speaker 3 these weren't just little jokes. It went on and on and on.
And it's weird because I-

Speaker 3 it was really upsetting. That's what I was.
Two things came to me at once: I see your explanation here, but

Speaker 3 is that it was

Speaker 3 first of all, they were stupid. That's what that really struck me and dumb.
Like, this is what they think is funny.

Speaker 3 Two is the hypocrisy, as you noted, about making Jimmy Kimmel making what was a funny joke

Speaker 3 because Trump said it versus this, like this haha.

Speaker 3 But I do think it's a pervasive

Speaker 3 feeling among these people.

Speaker 3 They really like, it's, it's so, I, I, I was, that, that, the return of this, and maybe it never went away, was something I would like it to go away again, but I guess they're thinking it.

Speaker 3 So maybe just to see it, we'll just be clear of who these people are. I don't think they'll be punished at all, but JD Van should step out of it.
That's my feeling.

Speaker 3 Like, especially because he's the one that's always like, you should be able to say what you want.

Speaker 2 Look, I won't even say kids, although they feel like kids when you're getting this old. The reality is,

Speaker 2 and folks, this is a lesson to young people out there. I hate to say this, but a lot of times people will send an email saying, I appreciate how provocative and how profane you are.

Speaker 2 I want to be more bold. And I write back, don't.
Or I'll write back and say, are you already rich?

Speaker 2 Because if you're economically secure and have people who love you unconditionally, fine, you can take more license with the things you say and occasionally say something stupid and have people push back and it doesn't threaten your economic livelihood.

Speaker 2 But in this era, the reality is if you go to work for JP Morgan or Goldman Sachs, they run a credit check on you now.

Speaker 3 You know what they also do?

Speaker 2 They check your social media. What's going to happen when these kids go on to want to be, you know,

Speaker 2 leave government and want to go be work at Lazar Frere or whatever for a law firm or a lobbying firm, the first thing the HR director does is they do a Google search on you.

Speaker 2 What's going to come up with these kids? And this is what's going to happen. They're never even going to know why they didn't get an interview.

Speaker 2 Because the HR person is going to see, oh, this is a person making light of gas chambers and using the N-word. Well, you know what? Maybe we should look at the other 99 applicants we have.

Speaker 3 Yeah, it's true. It's too much bother and someone will come up with it and someone will know who it was and everything else.

Speaker 2 And for them,

Speaker 2 if they'd showed up with an AR-15 to the No Kings rally, they would have found some Republican weirdos that want to hire them. Everyone's going to run from this.
There's nothing cool about this.

Speaker 2 There's nothing provocative. There's nothing right-wing.
I think even most Republicans are horrified.

Speaker 3 I just don't understand why J.D. Vance went on a limb, I guess, to create havoc, I suppose, with the Epstein things.

Speaker 3 And speaking of which, I urge everyone to read the excerpts from, I think it's Virginia Guffray.

Speaker 3 She's posthumously published a book about her experiences with Jeffrey Epstein. And it is, it's, it's beautifully written, you sound

Speaker 2 very upsetting.

Speaker 3 But it's, it's so plainly said.

Speaker 3 And I think it links to the way men, some some men think about women right like it was sort of she was making the bigger point that it wasn't just the sickness of jeffrey epstein but that there were more people who who act like this or feel like it's their privilege to talk about people and to um but everything rang true in that first exchange when she was a kid with her and ghelaine ghillain maxwell and him and if he if after reading that if trump lets her out he really is culpable i just don't know how else you could read anything close to that and not think that

Speaker 2 and there's been story after story the two things that struck me were reading that article because i i i'd heard most of it from other sources before before that the two things that struck me were one

Speaker 2 there is supposedly there is research showing that pedophiles target kids who have an absent or what they perceive as a weak male role model, that they sum up the level of male involvement in that person's life and prey on people.

Speaker 2 And you can imagine children of single parents from low-income homes are just more likely to be victims, which is obviously very upsetting.

Speaker 2 The other thing that really struck me here, Kara, that I didn't know about,

Speaker 2 like her dad introduced her at Mar-a-Lago.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 2 I mean, folks, at what point,

Speaker 2 at what point is there's just so much evidence around Epstein and Mar-a-Lago and Trump. It's like, wait, they met?

Speaker 2 This whole thing started at Mar-a-Lago?

Speaker 3 Yeah. Yeah, it did.
Yeah. He didn't have that memory because that's why Trump said he kicked Epstein out because he poached.

Speaker 2 He was stealing employees. Not because he was took one of my things.
Not because he was a convicted pedophile, but because he was stealing his employees.

Speaker 3 And remember, he had that sentence where it looked like he owned her. Like, he took one of my things.
Like, I don't know.

Speaker 3 Anyway, the whole thing, you must read it because it's very, so plainly written and everything rings true, I have to say, especially about that encounter, the way he talked to her, the way they tried to pull her.

Speaker 3 And Jelaine Maxwell, I mean, Epstein is dead and don't rest in peace, but boy, she's a monster

Speaker 3 in the same manner, like grotesque and should never be let out of prison and should be thrown into a deeper prison as far as I'm concerned.

Speaker 2 It's already happened. The fix is already in.
Yeah. He sent his personal lawyer down to interview her.
That never happens. And then, what do you know?

Speaker 2 She's transferred to a lower, a more pleasant prison.

Speaker 3 He cannot give her a pardon. He cannot give her a pardon.

Speaker 2 He can't. Kara, every time we've said that, we have found out that in fact he can.

Speaker 3 It's like the third rail.

Speaker 2 It's already been the wheels are the wheels are already in motion. All of a sudden, she's at a more amenable, more comfortable prison.

Speaker 2 Total violation of all decorum around justice where a lawyer went down to interview her. And now

Speaker 2 this is the fix is in.

Speaker 2 I think it's already happened.

Speaker 3 Well,

Speaker 3 I'll tell you one thing. If she does get out, people should like, OJ, she should lead a restless life where she never gets a moment's peace.

Speaker 3 I have to say, what she did to these young girls is repulsive.

Speaker 3 She's a monster.

Speaker 3 I never think you say the word evil about people, but she's evil, and so is he. Anyway, I recommend you reading it.
And it's sad. Virginia

Speaker 3 committed suicide, by the way, before this book came out.

Speaker 2 She was in a terrible car accident, wasn't she?

Speaker 3 Yeah, it's kind of unclear what happened, but ultimately it sounds her life sounds.

Speaker 3 She was a vulnerable young woman who had a history of sexual abuse, and she was a perfect mark for these two terrible predators. Anyway,

Speaker 3 speaking of which, California Governor Gavin Newsom vetoed a bill this week that would have banned minors from using AI chatbots. His reason, the bill's restrictions were too broad, I would agree.

Speaker 3 He did sign another AI safety bill requiring chatbots to tell users they're AI and reminding minors every three hours to take breaks.

Speaker 3 OpenAI called the bill a meaningful move forward for AI safety standards. Though CEO, Sam Alton, also just revealed that OpenAI will allow verified adults to access erotica on ChatGPT in December.

Speaker 3 I'm not sure these are related, but they feel like they are.

Speaker 3 The first bill, I know it was pushed by a lot of different groups, but it was broad because it seemed like it was attacking older people too. And it felt like

Speaker 3 we have to really specifically carve out minors here in a way.

Speaker 2 I think it's harder to try to ban older people from having um relationships with chat-pops as we are to say maybe and how even if they lead to bad outcomes that many of them have i don't i think we i don't know what to say about the the erotica do you think what do you think about what is and isn't getting regulated and and and the erotica thing um sam altman later said open a was not the elected moral police of the world i i didn't think they were but okay what do you what do you think i wrote i'm writing this book on masculinity and i think one of the things that kills masculinity is an overindulgence in porn because i i think key to success yeah you talked about it and one and one of the important things and one of the wonderful things about being a man is that we're more risk aggressive now sometimes that results in reckless behavior but sometimes it also results in valor and and wonderful things can happen when you apply for a job you're not qualified for when you start a business that makes no sense and ends up being crazy genius when you approach a woman and take the risk of rejection, it can lead to wonderful places.

Speaker 2 The problem with porn, porn, I find, among young men, is that an overconsumption of porn reduces their mojo to take risks and establish relationships that might lead to romantic relationships.

Speaker 2 And that is, we have demonized and pathologized sexual desire among young men. And the reality is it's like fire.
It can lead to bad places. It can lead to objectifying women.

Speaker 2 It can lead to inappropriate behavior. But for the most part, it's the fire that goes into an engine that creates a better you or desire for better you.
I want to look better. I want to look.

Speaker 2 I want to work out. I want to smell nice.
I want to groom. I want to have a plan.
I want to dress well. I want to take risks.
I want to demonstrate kindness.

Speaker 2 So the idea of a combination of erotic content with the character, AI, and synthetic relationship capabilities of these companies, I think is a fucking disaster.

Speaker 2 Because the first time a 14-year-old male gets shunned by a 14-year-old girl, which is part of growing up because women have a much finer filter for mating opportunities because the downside of sex is so much greater.

Speaker 2 I mean, if you want, if you're a dude and you want to have women in your life and you want romantic opportunities, that involves one thing, rejection and hopefully resilience.

Speaker 2 And what I worry about is the first signs of rejection, a 14-year-old, a 15-year-old, a 16-year-old

Speaker 2 boy starts turning to this awesome synthetic AI that looks like the hottest girl you've ever met, who will tease you just enough and then

Speaker 2 start showing you private parts and then let you engage in a series of erotic synthetic experiences that are low friction, low risk, and quite frankly, just reduce the fire.

Speaker 3 Can I just say you use a word there, which again, the people Slogam and I use all the time, which is seamless, frictionless. They don't like friction.

Speaker 3 And the problem is, I've done a bunch of interviews about this lately. And what's interesting is

Speaker 3 the friction part, like, and it goes the other way. Women would like men more attentive, more.
They could make their own characters, right? It's not going to be

Speaker 3 just, you know, and then you have, you know, a frictionless relationship, which I think is useless on some, I mean, it can be entertaining for a second, but once you get used to that, anyone in real life is

Speaker 3 incredibly problematic, right? For you, because you're used to this sort of seamless, frictionless life. Sex is friction, of course, you know, physically.

Speaker 3 But it really does.

Speaker 3 You can't, the thing is, you can't really stop them from doing it, right? He's right. He's not the moral police.

Speaker 3 By the way, that's kind of a straw man. No one thought Open AI was the world's police, moral police.
Fine, he can say that.

Speaker 3 But

Speaker 3 more to the point, it just makes this ease of.

Speaker 3 easing us into these relationships, of course, will help his bottom line because this is the kind of thing you stay on there.

Speaker 3 Even early chat, if you remember, early chat groups were incredibly addictive, just between and among different people, especially I had a chapter chapter in my AOL book called The House, The House that Online Porn Built, because that's where it really got going: online porn early in the early internet phase.

Speaker 3 This is just a quantum leap, I think.

Speaker 2 Well, there's basically three ways to make money on the internet: there's ads, there's e-commerce, and there's porn.

Speaker 2 And the problem or one of the issues with porn is that there's very little peer-reviewed because the majority of academics don't want to be known as the porn professor. Right.

Speaker 3 And so, but just some- There's an opening for you, Scott.

Speaker 2 Go ahead. There you go.

Speaker 2 I'm not going to touch that one. So

Speaker 3 don't touch anything.

Speaker 2 Look, 68 million search queries related to pornography. And you'll get this.
A quarter of all searches are related to pornography.

Speaker 3 Every day.

Speaker 2 A quarter of the searches, which gives you a sense of how big this business is. One

Speaker 2 analyst found that porn generates roughly 10% of the comments on Reddit. 13% of X is not safe for work content.
Tumblr, which was a porn site, and they,

Speaker 2 and I said it was

Speaker 2 porn site. They spent $1.1 billion.
Marissa Maer spent $1.1 billion for a porn site.

Speaker 2 And then the, I forgot his name, the venture capitalist with the weird haircut from Union Square Ventures got angry at me and said, Tumblr's amazing, da-da-da, after he had sold all his stock.

Speaker 2 And then they announced under pressure, they were doing away with porn. And in 60 days, their traffic dropped by 30%.

Speaker 2 And then that $1.1 billion acquisition, it was sold for, I think, $3 million seven years later. Porn is enormous online.
And

Speaker 2 when you have young men being pathologized, getting mixed signals around

Speaker 2 what's usually, what used to be considered romantic is now creepy. And they have access to 20%.
I mean,

Speaker 2 just to personalize this, I barely graduated from UCLA. Barely.
I had graduated with a 2.27 GPA.

Speaker 2 And one of the reasons I went to 60, 70% of my classes, not 10%, and didn't fail out, is I wanted to go on on to UCLA and see my buddies and see friends and, quite frankly, be around a disproportionate amount of ridiculously hot women who I might get to know and at some point might have a relationship with.

Speaker 2 It was very motivating. And if I had had on-demand

Speaker 2 synthetic, lifelike porn.

Speaker 2 I mean, how many men, what percentage of men are just not going to engage?

Speaker 3 Yeah, you know what?

Speaker 3 This is not an insult, but I could see you falling way down that rabbit hole.

Speaker 3 You're a lot shyer also than people realize. And

Speaker 3 you're, you, you know, I think having difficult things happen to you is hard for someone like you, but then you do it and it makes you a better person. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 That's the whole shooting match. The best things in our life.

Speaker 2 The best things in our life, whether it's getting a great job, whether it's finding a romantic partner who you're just crazy about, whether it's getting the opportunity to have your own sex, whether it's having the opportunity to give birth to a child, whether it's having the opportunity to create a loving household that's economically secure.

Speaker 2 All of those things involve one thing. They're really fucking hard with a ton of rejection, a ton of friction, a ton of dealing with the messiest, most difficult thing in history, other people.

Speaker 2 And these synthetic relationships are just constantly reinforcing, constantly making it easier. And if you're going to have...

Speaker 2 I used to sneak into my father's garage and look at his old Playboys.

Speaker 2 If all of a sudden that thing comes to, that woman comes to life and starts understanding me and talking about me and teasing me and doing sexual acts on demand,

Speaker 2 this is just headed nowhere good.

Speaker 3 No, you know, interestingly, I had a synthetic version of me for this thing made, and it disturbed me in every way because it got better by the second. It was, that was what was disturbing to me.

Speaker 3 It's not quite there yet.

Speaker 3 And I'm going to leave it to you in my will. But

Speaker 2 it's going to be a hard time.

Speaker 3 I know.

Speaker 3 It's really,

Speaker 3 let me text.

Speaker 2 It's going to be late at night. You should apologize.

Speaker 3 It's a 3D, my friend.

Speaker 3 It's not going to text. You're going to see the moving body of Kara Swisher.

Speaker 3 You and people like you would move into this so quickly. And the key is that OpenAI, let me say, besides all the other statements Sam made, this is for money.

Speaker 3 They've got to find revenue streams. And this is the mother load of them all.
This is what it is. That's why they're not elected.

Speaker 3 They were not elected the moral police, but they were elected to have to make money on this stuff. And this is, this is a killer app, and it will bleed to our children.
It will bleed.

Speaker 3 They will not be able to keep children safe. Anyway, let me just add one other thing.

Speaker 3 Newsom has also signed a bill mandating health label warnings, speaking of which, like the R thing or something on a cigarette.

Speaker 3 This comes as Instagram just announced new protections for teens, limiting what they can see.

Speaker 3 The platform says it will hide content with strong language, risky stunts, and marijuana use from teen users. Oh no,

Speaker 3 not the demon weed. Restrictions will also apply to AI bots.
The updates follow recent reports questioning whether Instagram's existing teen account safeguards actually work.

Speaker 3 So they decried the people who said they don't, these reports, but then they, of course, do something.

Speaker 3 The point I want to make here is they don't think of it first. They should think of it first before these reports come out.
And nothing's going to be perfect, by the way. I don't expect perfection.

Speaker 3 but they really are so sloppy in how they do this. And then they're going to act like a PG-13

Speaker 3 rating is the same thing because this is immersive. This isn't a movie theater down the street.
This is something much different

Speaker 3 that's very hard to keep your teens out of, right? I mean, Scott, this is what your book's about, right?

Speaker 3 This is one of these way stations that young men are going to go through, young teenagers, and it's not, they're not coming out good on the other side of this because we slap a label on it.

Speaker 3 But I don't mind there being a label.

Speaker 2 When I was, I think I was 13, I was with my best buddy, Adam Markman, and we lived in walking distance from Westwood Village, which, by the way, is a shadow of itself right now. But

Speaker 2 we used to have friends who were ushers at all the theaters, the National, the Bruin, the Westwood Village Theater.

Speaker 2 And we'd go and we'd try and get eye contact with one of our friends who was an usher, and he'd like leave a door open, and we'd sneak in and watch movies.

Speaker 2 And one day we took a wrong turn, and at the age of 13, we

Speaker 2 stumbled into, fell into William Blatty's The Exorcist.

Speaker 2 I could not, in the morning, I would have to put on my socks in the corner to make sure that the devil wasn't coming for.

Speaker 2 I couldn't. I slept on the floor at the foot of my mother's bed for two weeks.

Speaker 3 No fit and cunning for you.

Speaker 2 No 13-year-old.

Speaker 2 Max von Saida, Linda Blair, cinematic peak, obviously, Ellen Burston, a hugely underrated actress.

Speaker 3 I loved her.

Speaker 2 Anyways,

Speaker 2 a 13-year-old should not see the exorcist.

Speaker 2 The movies had a right. There's certain content and I believe technologies that young people should not be exposed to as their brain is wired.

Speaker 2 And one of those things we've decided is pornography and Sam Altman saying, we shouldn't be the morality police. No, no, actually, you should.

Speaker 2 You should have standards, and that is no under the age of 18 should in any way be allowed to engage with a synthetic relationship. And two,

Speaker 2 you need to age gate pornography.

Speaker 2 Everybody else does this. Why are you different? And because you can do it better or because there's more money on that?

Speaker 3 They don't do it better. And it's harder because it's so pernicious.
It's not like a movie theater. You have to, like you said, you physically went to Westwood, went into the movie.

Speaker 3 And listen, every parent has an example of this. Like my movie that I shouldn't have seen was Tales Tales from the Crypt, right? I shouldn't have snuck into that movie.
And I did.

Speaker 3 And, and, uh, and like one, and for Alex, he snuck around the corner while Louis and I were watching Ted. And I, that, that wasn't quite that, but it was just dirty.
And I wish he had been older.

Speaker 3 And I wish I had been a better parent in that regard. And with Louis going to sausage party with him, mistake, right? But you've told me.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Oh, man. I didn't think this food was going to have sex.
But anyway, it was literally in the middle, right? As I started started to do that, I have to say, Louis turned to me and said, good parenting.

Speaker 3 And I go, I want to kill my

Speaker 3 sex.

Speaker 3 And then we were like, should we leave? And he goes, no, let's just sit here quiet, not look.

Speaker 2 Anyway,

Speaker 2 you know, that there actually, there's a sequel coming out to The Exorcist, but it's, it's a different twist. This time it's the devil trying to get the priest out of the child.

Speaker 3 It isn't good.

Speaker 3 So tell me what you think with what's going to, very briefly.

Speaker 2 I know what's going to happen. Governor Newsom is trying to thread the needle between being responsible and responding to parents' concerns, but at the same time, he's running for president.

Speaker 2 And the last fucking thing he wants right now is for the most successful companies that have been responsible for California surpassing Japan in terms of the size of its economy that have spent 70% of the gains in the SP, which will be a fantastic talking point for him at a debate.

Speaker 2 The last thing that he can do is piss off these guys enough such that they start moving to Texas. So

Speaker 2 he's caught between between what a leader is supposed to do, and that is protect people from a tragedy to the commons, but at the same time acknowledging that

Speaker 2 the thing that Governor Newsom has going for him right now is the most, the people with the most options in the world, the companies with the most options in the world creating the most value, all choose to hang out and headquarter in one place, and that's California.

Speaker 2 So it is very difficult for him. He can't have Sam Altman go, because of onerous regulation at the hands of our governor, we're considering relocating to, you know, Nashville or Austin.

Speaker 2 So he has to walk a very fine line here. But the, again, it's a lot of blah, blah, a lot of hand movement.
It's the illusion of complexity is being weaponized again.

Speaker 2 No one under the age of 18, there should be age gating. No one under the age of 16 should be on a social media platform.
No one under the age of 18 should be subjected to pornographic content.

Speaker 2 No one under the age of 18 should in any way be able to engage in a synthetic relationship. They could figure out all this.

Speaker 3 I think he's on safe ground with that. I think there's so much bipartisan.
I think the company's going to have to give up on having

Speaker 3 that. They should, could, and will eventually have to.
Like, I don't think it will go. I think they will not.
On this one, they don't get what they want. And I think nuisance.

Speaker 3 That bill he vetoed was far too broad. I, I, when I saw it, I was like, no, this is going to, they just, I was like, can't you just stop at what we actually need?

Speaker 3 Like, we don't need to protect everybody. We need to protect kids.
Like, that's what drives me crazy about that bill. I thought he would veto it and he did.

Speaker 2 One more footnote just on The Exorcist. I actually still with you after I saw the exorcist.

Speaker 2 You can hear it coming. You could feel it coming.
Okay. But what happened was I was,

Speaker 2 we couldn't, you know, my mom and I didn't have much money and we couldn't pay for our exorcist. So I got repossessed.

Speaker 2 That's good, bad credit humor.

Speaker 3 You know, on our tour, we should watch The Exorcist together. Oh, God.

Speaker 2 I can't. I don't watch scary movies.
I can't handle that.

Speaker 3 I don't either.

Speaker 3 I don't either. Oh, though, I watched The Accountant Tube recently.
I liked a lot.

Speaker 2 I don't know what that would do to me. I, you know, now, after watching Wizard of the Oz growing up, whenever I climax, I scream, Surrender, Dorothy.
Oh, my God.

Speaker 3 Surrender. I feel so bad for your wife.
I just want to say that as many times as I can. Okay, Scott, let's go on a quick break.

Speaker 3 When we come back, Meta caves to Pam Bondi and the DOJ, another hypocrisy.

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Speaker 2 If you were a person online around the turn of the century, there's a good chance that AIM, AOL Instant Messenger, was crucially important to your social life.

Speaker 2 For a whole generation of us, it's how we learned to LOL and LMAO and JK and VRB. It's how we learned to be people online.

Speaker 2 And this week on Version History, a new chat show about old technology, we're talking about the whole story of AIM, from its skunk works era inside of AOL to its very sad death at the hands of text messages.

Speaker 2 All that on Version History, wherever you get podcasts.

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Speaker 3 Scott, we're back.

Speaker 3 Meta has taken down a Facebook page that was sharing information about ICE agents in Chicago after, quote, outreach from the Justice Department, as Attorney General Pam Bondi put it.

Speaker 3 Meta said the page was, quote, removed for violating our policies against coordinated harm. This follows Apple and Google removing ICE tracking apps, as we discussed last week.

Speaker 3 Remember, Republicans were slamming tech companies for bowing to government pressure during the last administration, even taking a case to the Supreme Court.

Speaker 2 He also, you know, and complained about, and Mark Zuckerberg has been vocal in the last year about social media censorship going far under, going too far under biden let's listen to what he told joe rogan back in january that's like the whole point right is the government is not allowed to censor this stuff so at some level i do think that you know having people in the administration calling up the guys on our team and yelling at them and cursing and threatening repercussions if we don't take down things that are true is like

Speaker 3 it's pretty bad it sounds illegal

Speaker 3 oh my god he's such a hypocrite like literally no one cursed and threatened him. And also,

Speaker 3 it's impossible to threaten him. And secondly, what is Pam nicer about it? It's the same thing.
And it's the same thing Republicans complained about. And then it's the same thing they're doing.

Speaker 3 Every accusation is a confession with these people at every moment of the time. I mean, and they caved to these Republicans.

Speaker 3 And of course, you know, possibly caged the Democrats because they're not yelling quite enough or not nice enough to them. I don't know.
What did you think? This was just, oh, of course.

Speaker 2 I'm sensitive or empathetic to the notion that if the government,

Speaker 2 I think our tech platform should cooperate with the government.

Speaker 3 Yes, we can.

Speaker 2 But at the same time,

Speaker 2 I find of all the ugliness,

Speaker 2 I think I'm

Speaker 2 the thing that used to bother me the most was just the out-of-control. control corruption around this crypto stuff.

Speaker 2 I think that has been bested by the fact that we have a secret police

Speaker 2 essentially essentially terrorizing

Speaker 2 Americans. Because

Speaker 2 it's not only

Speaker 2 the terror and the trauma these people have to go through. What it says is that America is devoting its energy to

Speaker 2 fascism, which is believing that the enemy is within. And it's just a false flag.
It's just

Speaker 2 we're not that divided, but we have the most powerful companies at the behest of the president dividing us.

Speaker 3 Well, talk about the IRS thing, because you mentioned that, the Scott Besant, that they're going to use it to investigate people. You made a joke at the top, but it's in this wheelhouse, correct?

Speaker 2 This is an autocracy. Reward your

Speaker 2 Putin has nothing on Trump. Reward your allies, carve up TikTok, give it to your Republican donors.
Give somebody a tip that you're about to announce ridiculous tariffs again last Friday on China.

Speaker 2 And this person goes out, buys

Speaker 2 several hundred million dollars notionally

Speaker 2 in puts against the crypto market. And by the way, closes out the trade at $120 million gain later that day.
Again, unless somebody knew what was coming here, this was the luckiest trade in history.

Speaker 2 Reward your allies and punish your enemies. And at some point, you and me are going to end up on some list and the IRS is going to come for us.

Speaker 2 And when the IRS comes for you, Even if you've done nothing wrong, if they're aggressive enough, you're just going to have to pay a lot of money. It's going to send a chill.

Speaker 2 And you're going to decide, oh, maybe on our podcast, we shouldn't speak. We shouldn't be so negative on Trump or whatever.
This is, you don't weaponize

Speaker 2 Americans pay for these institutions. The IRS is there to make sure that people pay their taxes.

Speaker 2 By the way, if you want to solve or go a long way to solving the deficit, you would increase funding to the IRS because supposedly about $780 billion a year is called a tax gap, which means taxes that are owed, that go unpaid.

Speaker 2 Because the Republicans, and this is very deft, they they have said rather than the biggest tax cut in history is the defunding of the IRS

Speaker 2 because wealthy people have exceptionally complicated tax returns. And to audit a wealthy person takes professionals and time and resources, which the IRS no longer has.

Speaker 2 So the tax rates are just symbolic because very, very wealthy people with complicated tax returns can be so aggressive now on their taxes because they are, in fact, confident that the IRS doesn't have the resources to come comfort them.

Speaker 2 And now he's saying, I'll weaponize it against my enemies.

Speaker 3 Right.

Speaker 2 And the IRS will be.

Speaker 3 It's such a waste.

Speaker 2 I mean, it happened to the DOJ. It's going to, why wouldn't it happen at the IRS? It's happened to the DOJ.

Speaker 3 I feel like the FBI should be investigating. Like there's been a lot of stories about how the FBI is like, we're not doing real crimes.

Speaker 3 We're just doing what Trump thinks are crimes or immigration or all the resources are going to. Same thing here with the IRS.

Speaker 3 Instead of collecting taxes we are lawfully owed, this is what they're going to spend their time doing because they're going to know where their bread is buttered.

Speaker 3 The other part is that these laws against

Speaker 3 officials, executive officials, including the president, were passed after Nixon tried to do this. So he's trying to break those up.
And they're very explicit, very

Speaker 3 A lot of, I'm just going to say, Scott Besson, you better lawyer up if Democrat, because what you're doing here is suggesting using the IRS as a tool of retribution.

Speaker 3 There are very clear laws that they're going to, they may run over them right now, but they're not going to outrun these things.

Speaker 3 And so I don't believe they will. And so not just Trump is also liable here for this.

Speaker 3 If Democrats, the problem is if Democrats get in power, they're going to spend all their time rounding up the criminals, right? And

Speaker 3 how does that help our country in any way? And at some point, they'll have to let some of these terrible people go.

Speaker 2 I don't know. I do think there needs to be something along the lines of like a Nuremberg trial.
There needs to be, I think the only way we move past this is with some sort of reckoning.

Speaker 2 And I actually believe the Democrats should be outlining the specific laws, the specific hearings, the specific subpoenas that they are going to pursue.

Speaker 2 Because to just sort of say, well, it's time to move on and come together, there needs to be moral clarity around what's going on here. Because just

Speaker 2 the DOJ being weaponized is the most serious of all of it. But in terms of IRS, what that means is a tax increase for lower and middle-income homes and all Democrats.
Because

Speaker 2 if you're a famous Republican donor, you're telling your tax people right now, just

Speaker 2 go so far, so aggressive, don't pay this,

Speaker 2 claim a $200 million to dollar deduction on your plane, even though it costs $60 million.

Speaker 2 Well, that's not true. Just go for it.
And by the way,

Speaker 2 I don't think I'll be audited. Now, what does that mean? The government has to collect at least $5 trillion a year to just fund their current commitments.

Speaker 2 They're going to have to get that money from somewhere.

Speaker 2 So if really wealthy people or people in the president's stead, which happen to be billionaire Republicans who are paying a disproportionate, I mean, they're a key part of the tax code.

Speaker 2 There's this notion that the rich don't pay taxes. No, the rich, the top, probably the top 10% pay about 80% of federal taxes.
Are they as a percentage of their wealth paying their fair share?

Speaker 2 I think that's up for real debate. But in terms of a gross dollar amount, because they make so much m more money than anyone, they're a huge part of the tax base.

Speaker 2 And if you decide to start letting them off the hook, you're going to have to get other people to pay disproportionately more.

Speaker 2 So him weaponizing the IRS is not only unjust, it's effectively a tax increase for non-Democratic billionaires and it's a tax decrease for Republican billionaires.

Speaker 2 And people just don't connect the dots here.

Speaker 3 Yeah, no,

Speaker 3 you know what dot you connected, the ideas around

Speaker 3 he wouldn't be able to do what he's doing without the AI boom. I thought that was really smart.
I was like, Amanda even said things. She goes, I hadn't thought of that.

Speaker 3 Sometimes Scott comes out with the most obvious connections.

Speaker 2 That's the same thing. It's true probability and luck.

Speaker 3 It's something. No, it's not.
I'm just saying. It's a similar connection.
It's like, that's what's happening here. But let me tell you, you know,

Speaker 3 it's going to come back to bite you. I really feel it will and probably should.

Speaker 3 Speaking of something that needs to be bitten, Salesforce CEO Mark Benioff appears to be sort of walking back his recent comments in the New York Times where he called for President Trump to send National Guard troops to San Francisco.

Speaker 3 Benioff tried to clarify his remarks in a a post on X saying safety is, quote, first and foremost, the responsibility of our city and state leaders.

Speaker 3 He also pointed out correctly that crime in San Francisco is down 30%.

Speaker 3 Still, he told the Times that the city needs to refund the police, even though San Francisco never actually defunded his police force, and it has been doing that.

Speaker 3 I got to say, you know, Eve, I have a lot to say about this. There was a thing I sent you from Gary Tan who irritates me on the regular.
But he said the same thing.

Speaker 3 It's all moving in the right direction. There's all kinds of great statistics of what's happening happening in San Francisco.
And for Mark to weigh in like this,

Speaker 3 and then saying we have to be nice to him because he gives a lot of money away. Like you give the money away and shut up, Mark.
I'm sorry.

Speaker 3 If you want to be charitable, like Mackenzie Bezos, keep your mouth shut about it.

Speaker 3 You don't need to be thanked and you don't get a pass over saying something like this to bring in police, the National Guard to San Francisco. He never is there.

Speaker 3 And I know a little bit about what happened in here is he probably he went, he was in downtown San Francisco for two seconds was in a bad part of it saw some homeless and then compared it to Washington he was in a very nice part of Washington and it's like see what happens when the National Guard comes in but what he doesn't know is Washington was like that before he got there and he was in a bad part of San Francisco There's no question San Francisco had a real downturn, but it is on the upturn from the work for people like London Breed and now Daniel Lurry, who's the mayor.

Speaker 3 They're trying really hard and for San Francisco's biggest booster to do a heel turn like this, because he wants to be part of the Trump crime family. I just,

Speaker 3 and by the way, all of those tech bros who are with Trump make fun of him relentlessly, which is, he should know this.

Speaker 3 And I know he needs to make money and he wants to get in on the gimmies and he wants to be at those dinners. But Mark, this is,

Speaker 3 I couldn't.

Speaker 3 It's not really shocking, but it's also gross is what it is. I don't know what else to say.

Speaker 3 You may have a a different opinion, but I don't think you should, this person who's been one of San Francisco's biggest board, this should be the thing he said.

Speaker 3 And the last thing, from what I understand, is he did a more problematic interview with another group.

Speaker 3 And he also tagged Mike Moritz, the San Francisco Standard, which I think is doing a great job in San Francisco reporting.

Speaker 3 And Mike Moritz is another venture capitalist who owns, who has created that publication, which is, as I said, an excellent publication. But,

Speaker 3 you know, I think that he had a difficult interview with them and then he turned to the New York Times and even his apparently his PR person was like jaw-dropping that he did this.

Speaker 3 I like Mark.

Speaker 3 I wasn't surprised by it, but it's really incredibly unhelpful. And for you to act like a victim and then demand fealty because you give money away, I'd rather you not give the money away.

Speaker 3 keep your mouth shut. I don't know what else to say.
What do you think?

Speaker 2 I think you have more. I mean, you know Mark better than me and you know San Francisco better than me.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 the way I see it is, simply put, I think Mark's a good guy who's very civic-minded. I think he gives money away because he's genuinely a philanthropic person and recognizes his blessings.

Speaker 2 And he said something really fucking stupid. I mean,

Speaker 2 and if I were advising him, and I'm not, and actually, you know what, I may text him. Just say, I said something stupid.
I apologize and maybe add a little context because

Speaker 2 I don't think it's, I think it's a shame because I do think Mark has made a real effort

Speaker 2 to

Speaker 2 acknowledge his blessings and be really civic-minded. I've heard a lot of people say that when they can't find resources anywhere, they call Mark and Mark is an automatic yes.

Speaker 2 And he goes out of his way.

Speaker 2 I just think he's a good man. He said something stupid here that is not accurate.
And when you get that rich, you can get into a bubble and maybe had a bad experience in San Francisco.

Speaker 2 There are a lot of areas, my understanding is in San Francisco that feel like a war zone.

Speaker 3 Well, the tenderloin has been bad for decades, but go ahead.

Speaker 2 Go ahead. You know this.

Speaker 2 You're going to forget more about the city than I'm ever going to go. In 1999,

Speaker 2 I left the board of my company, got divorced, and said to my wife, ex-wife, you can have our friends. I never want to come back here again.

Speaker 2 Probably more information than people wanted.

Speaker 2 And I can't stand, San Francisco is my least favorite city.

Speaker 2 I've just never, I've never really enjoyed it. Anyway,

Speaker 2 but he probably had a bad experience. He's probably trying to pose a little bit for the Trump lights and get in on some of that AI, you know, whatever it might be.
But

Speaker 2 the first thing I thought when I saw it was I thought it was sad because I do think Mark has spent a lot of time trying to be the good billionaire. And I think a lot of it is genuine.

Speaker 2 I don't think it's, I don't think it's doing it to

Speaker 2 try and get business or deflect or be righteous or tell nonprofits how to behave. I genuinely believe he is one of the good guys.

Speaker 2 And I hated to see this because the reality is when you get, it's very easy to enter in your own bubble and say stupid things. And he could fix this.
Very simple.

Speaker 2 This was stupid. I apologize.

Speaker 3 It's interesting that he won't because

Speaker 3 he has changed a little bit. I have to say.
I think one of the things, I did a really famous interview where he said he compared Facebook to cigarette companies, right?

Speaker 3 And he was, you know, and he was one of the few when they they had that Trump Tower thing. He's, he was like, can you believe this shit?

Speaker 3 When they, when all the tech billionaires went, and now I think he's seen,

Speaker 3 you know, they're all sort of pigs at the trough and he's decided to oink. I just don't know what else it is.

Speaker 3 Like, and that's so, and maybe he's had a change of heart and he's become more conservative. I don't know.

Speaker 3 But you can't do Ohana and then say, let's bring in the troops when San Francisco is trying really hard to fix itself and is on the upswing. It's such a

Speaker 2 noticeably better.

Speaker 3 And if Gary Tan is saying this, who's the biggest complainer about San Francisco, there's a whole sort of right-ish group, and I wouldn't say right because it's San Francisco, but they are pretty conservative.

Speaker 3 Um, you know, is applauding the efforts. And by the way, everyone's moving back, Mark.

Speaker 3 Just so you know, Elon's back in California, you know, the whole gang of them that complained is all locating in San Francisco or California. I just, it's like,

Speaker 3 I thought he went on on a real limb when he compared. And he was the earliest person and almost like a class trader, right? Saying Facebook was like cigarette companies.
He was right. That's right.

Speaker 3 And he took the shit for that. He was early.
And it wasn't, he wasn't

Speaker 3 virtue signaling because it wasn't a good thing to say. It didn't work out well for him to do that.
But this was, I just think he wanted attention.

Speaker 3 The other thing that drove me crazy from that interview, and I was. was shocked by it.
He owns Time magazine, for people who don't know.

Speaker 3 And by the way, that photo, Trump looks like he has a vagina on his neck, but that's neither here nor there.

Speaker 3 Is that he said, I haven't really been reading the news lately about the ICE stuff. And like he, he owns a major,

Speaker 3 I don't think it's as big as it used to be, but he owns a major news publication, pretending like, well, I don't really know about the other things. That stuff.
Give me a fucking break.

Speaker 3 You're a brilliant guy. Stop it.
Like, you know what? You've decided it's okay or you're going to ignore it. But to say, I really wasn't paying attention.
Is there other things happening here?

Speaker 3 Like the IRS or the ICE stuff or anything else? And I, I don't, it's sort of like.

Speaker 2 I think he's done a great job with time.

Speaker 3 Or at least. It's better.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Or let me say it survived. It wouldn't have survived.

Speaker 2 It's economically unviable unless you have a, I mean, like most unfortunate media companies, unless it's owned by a benign billionaire, it goes away or it becomes all about cost cutting or sensationalism to try and get clicks.

Speaker 3 I don't mind go away. I have to tell you on some things.

Speaker 3 Let him go. Yeah, let him die.

Speaker 3 I think he's done a perfectly good job. But I have to say, at various points, he said, you should come work for me.
Honestly, Mark, I'm glad I didn't at this point.

Speaker 3 This isn't, please say what Scott said, say you're sorry. And, you know, stop acting like a victim.
And I know you want that sweet AI money, but honestly, Ohana, man,

Speaker 3 Ohana. You know, he says that all the time.
All this Ohana-ness.

Speaker 3 Well, this isn't Ohana, just so you know. All right, Scott, let's go on a quick break.

Speaker 3 When we come back, we'll talk about news outlets pushing back on the Defense Department's idiotic new regulations.

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Speaker 2 From ransomware to ID theft, holiday scams, to AI impersonations, cyber criminals are busier than elves this season targeting your family, business, and your digital safety.

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Speaker 3 Scott, we're back with more news. News organizations, including Fox News, have declined to sign the Defense Department's new press policy denouncing the regulations in a joint statement.

Speaker 3 The policy prohibits journalists from gaining information the Defense Department doesn't make available for them. It also revokes Pentagon press credentials for those who don't agree.

Speaker 3 By the signing deadline, only OAN, one America News, had agreed to the policy.

Speaker 3 They're kind of

Speaker 3 the Trump administration, so that makes sense.

Speaker 3 You know,

Speaker 3 I mean, Pete Hegseth was trying to say, well, it's like the way the White House is, but I don't think this is the worst thing for these reporters. They walked out.

Speaker 3 They can find these other people. They don't have to wander around.

Speaker 3 It's easier if you're wandering around the Pentagon, I guess. But I think these outlets did the right thing by just saying, no, we're not signing this thing.

Speaker 3 And I think this is really, Pete Hegseth has usually has mangled and bungled this entire thing.

Speaker 2 What are your thoughts? I thought it was a nice moment for the press. They all came together and they said, we're not going to put up with this.
And

Speaker 2 I think that Secretary Hegseth does not have the confidence or management skills or ability to read the room or the judgment to oversee the most lethal, successful organization in history.

Speaker 2 And this is just another example of this. This didn't need to happen.

Speaker 2 He's created more drama. He's handled this poorly.
In an effort to control the press, he's created a bunch of bad press for the Pentagon and the administration. This is,

Speaker 2 you know, this is, it's blown up in his face. He's his inability to, his belief that he could muscle around journalists backfired.

Speaker 2 And again, the whole point of this was to create a sanitized stream of information out of the Pentagon that would only be complimentary or frame it in a certain way.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 if if it wasn't for journalists, I mean, we'd probably still be in Vietnam. I mean, it's just the,

Speaker 2 typically the Secretary of Defense comes from a civilian background because they've decided that generals have a habit, and not all generals, but generals have a habit of looking for military solutions.

Speaker 2 And what you need is a Secretary of Defense that understands the private sector and also

Speaker 2 is, quite frankly, just more rooted in a civilian mindset or a geopolitical mindset.

Speaker 2 And instead, instead, we hired a major who was a TV host to head the secretary, you know, to become the new secretary of war. And this individual just doesn't have good judgment.

Speaker 2 So, in an attempt to sanitize, politicize, and create a stream of pre-approved press,

Speaker 2 they've made it worse. They've created a stream of really negative press saying this is yet another example of an authoritarian government trying to control the narrative here.

Speaker 2 And it kudos to everyone: NBC, abc cbs cnn and fox all issued a joint statement declining to agree to the new policy weird why this i mean he's also uh lie testing all the employees too he's such a parent like guy get get off your whatever substances you're using because it's making you freaky i mean fortunately this this authoritarian move was handled so like trump issuing a crypto coin that increases his net worth by $5 billion

Speaker 2 the Friday night before inauguration was kind of genius they the timing here was so elegant you know i've always said this it's like it's like we're this is a mafia family but unfortunately

Speaker 2 unfortunately you have michael running the corruption and you have fredo running the government hackseth is fredo the person running his crypto scams the person running his tour around the middle east to get to get buildings and golf courses and 747 sunny who is sunny

Speaker 2 oh that's a really interesting statement just

Speaker 2 no one's been shot yet that one guy from the from the the texting thing was shot but he wasn't really sunny i love james conn yeah um who's sunny i love bron piccolo

Speaker 3 who is sunny let's think who's like the big

Speaker 3 who is

Speaker 3 killed who got shot beset thinks he's sunny but he's not

Speaker 3 Remember, I'm going to beat everyone else. Can I just say, I just, he seems like, and I'm going to bring back a word from our youth.
He's such a dork. Like, he's such a dork.

Speaker 3 The other thing is,

Speaker 3 let me just say a word very quickly and then we do about access journalism. I was asked by, I was on Katie Drummond's podcast from Wired.

Speaker 3 I think she's doing an astonishing job at Wired, really reinvigorating that brand.

Speaker 3 And she asked about access and do I regret? And I have to say, I really think that

Speaker 3 you get better stories not having access, actually,

Speaker 3 if you do really good reporting. And, you know, being at the Wall Street Journal and a little bit of the Times and the Washington Post, they always bring it to you first, right?

Speaker 3 And then you sort of agree to release it as if you got a scoop, but it isn't because they hand delivered it to you.

Speaker 3 I have to say, I got a lot better after I just said, fuck access. Like, I don't care if they talk to me or not.
And I would say I did too much of that trading.

Speaker 3 And every reporter does too much of that access stuff. Like, I'll give you this if you give me this.
And I'm so happy that they don't want to talk to me now because I can do whatever I want.

Speaker 3 And I still find out more stuff because one of the things that Hegseth doesn't understand is reporting has moved on and there are so many sources.

Speaker 3 And in the old days, you'd have to either meet someone or get a phone call, which is real traceable, right?

Speaker 3 And so it was really hard. Now there's so many ways to get to sources and so many ways for them to get to you and to publish on their own.
It's a whole different game.

Speaker 3 So as usual, Hegseth, who is living in the 80s with the way he dresses and does the

Speaker 3 party on Garth,

Speaker 3 is

Speaker 3 really way behind in understanding how now they will double down on finding shit about him about and reporting because it's all there.

Speaker 3 It's not, they're not going to make it up, but he's even people who work for him are like this one spokesperson who had a falling out with him is like, what a fucking idiot.

Speaker 3 He doesn't understand the modern media age. That's my that's my access thing.

Speaker 2 I empathize with journalists who are trying to, I mean,

Speaker 2 you guys have to walk a a fine line and that is you want to get good interviews and people aren't going to come on your show if they think they're just going to be ambushed.

Speaker 2 So I understand the temptation for access journalism. You're at a point where, quite frankly, you no longer need to engage in access journalism.
So you have the luxury of,

Speaker 2 I think people listen to you when you speak. You have a big platform.

Speaker 2 People are a little bit scared of you. People see you as tough but fair.
But I can understand playing into the notion of access. Yeah.

Speaker 3 I do a little.

Speaker 2 I mean, I get it. You're an up-and-coming journalist.
You don't want to be, you don't want everyone to go, no, I'm not going on her show.

Speaker 2 She's, she's not, you know, not, not nice or trying to make me look.

Speaker 3 Especially TV ones, by the way. They have a harder time because they need the physical person, right? So it's hard.
It's hard. Access journalism is incredibly hard and it probably should go away.

Speaker 3 Anyway,

Speaker 3 one more quick break, Scott, and we'll be back for predictions.

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Speaker 3 Okay, Scott, we're here for predictions, but can I just make a brief one? Kim Kardashian just launched an interesting new product for Skims, a thong adorned with fake pubic hair.

Speaker 3 It's already selling out. I predict Scott Galloway probably bought 10 or 12 of them this thong.
What?

Speaker 2 What is this? A fake pubic hair?

Speaker 3 The Skims business is huge. FYI, Kim Kardashian is a great entrepreneur.
She works with great entrepreneurs. Skims is this under, because it's underwear, I guess, and a bunch of other stuff.

Speaker 3 But the thong is adorned with fake pubic hair. I just feel like

Speaker 3 I wish I could get one for you. That's all I have to say.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I predict you will love it when I get it for you.

Speaker 2 I'm going to respond to that.

Speaker 3 Yeah. I thought it was an opening for you there, Scott, a pubic hair thong.

Speaker 3 Okay. Yeah.
I'm just throwing, I'm laying it up for you and you're not, you're not taking it.

Speaker 2 Yeah, no, I'm not, I'm not grabbing that one.

Speaker 3 Your prediction, please.

Speaker 2 So my prediction is that you're about to see the greatest.

Speaker 2 So reality TV was huge,

Speaker 2 kind of probably the biggest trend in TV through the odds. I don't know what was bigger than that.
Original scripted comedies. I don't know.

Speaker 2 The biggest trend in television over the next

Speaker 2 streaming media and broadcast television over the next two years is going to be podcast repurposed as TV shows.

Speaker 3 Oh, I know where you're going.

Speaker 2 And if you look at recently Netflix's deal with

Speaker 2 Spotify and podcasts, they've basically said, okay, I mean, how did Netflix win the war?

Speaker 3 Can you explain the deal for people who don't know?

Speaker 2 So, yeah, Spotify and Netflix are partnering to bring podcasts to Netflix. The partnership will bring video versions of 16 different Spotify exclusive podcasts to Netflix.

Speaker 2 And this is essentially a shift following Spotify's large investment in the podcast space.

Speaker 2 They spent billions for purchasing studios like Podcast, The Ringer, and Gimlet Media and signing exclusive deals with people ranging from Joe Rogan to Alex Cooper.

Speaker 2 And many of these didn't pan out to be profitable. And Spotify learned that the real value of podcasts isn't just in audio, it's in video.
And they're not strong in video, and YouTube is.

Speaker 2 What this really,

Speaker 2 I mean, so YouTube revealed that over a billion people every month watch and listen to podcasts on YouTube.

Speaker 2 I think about 18% of our listens and 25% of Prop G listens are on a TV and it's people streaming it off of YouTube. YouTube is the biggest distribution platform for podcasts.

Speaker 2 Netflix has correctly identified that their competition is not Disney Plus or Hulu. They've beaten them or Paramount Plus.
That this doesn't matter. Their competition is YouTube.

Speaker 2 It commands about 11 or 12% of video listenership, and Netflix is at 8%.

Speaker 2 And YouTube is big, really big, and podcasting. It's kind of the biggest,

Speaker 2 it's the biggest distribution platform for what we're doing now. In addition, Netflix, their strategy and how they won is through an arbitrage.

Speaker 2 And in this instance, it was a geographic arbitrage where they said, we're not going to produce stuff.

Speaker 2 We're going to spend spend more money than anyone else, but for spending X, we're going to get 1.2 X because we're going to produce squid games in Seoul, Korea, and we're going to present, you know, produce money heist in Madrid.

Speaker 2 The next arbitrage that you're going to see is effectively podcasts are television with a lower cost means of production. And that is.

Speaker 3 Because I think this is amazing special effects going on here.

Speaker 2 But go ahead.

Speaker 2 Well, if you look at what's happened, and the guy that sort of pioneered this for me, the first thing I did when I arrived in London, literally when I moved here three and and a half years ago, is I got off the plane and I went to Shoreditch and I was on this podcast.

Speaker 2 It was supposed to be this up-and-coming kid named Stephen Bartlett, who I think is the next Joe Rogan. And he's this super attractive, really great interviewer, 31, 32.

Speaker 2 And I walked into his podcast studio and there were 12 people in like a six camera shoot. He said, this is TV.
This is,

Speaker 2 and he gets. millions of views on, and Chris Williams has a good TV game.
Basically, the people churning in and out of podcasts, is primarily the fulcrum of that turn right now, is your video game.

Speaker 2 And now, what is the problem with streaming media? And what is the problem with cable news?

Speaker 2 Their audiences on cable news are declining. In streaming media, it's a capital war.
So, all roads lead to the same place, and that is they need a way to create content for a lower cost.

Speaker 2 And effectively, what you have with podcasts, the best podcasts can create

Speaker 2 22, 20, you know, 21 minutes or 42 minutes of content for a 30 or 60 minute slot on TV, but they can produce it for 10 to 15% of the cost of the hair, the makeup, the unions, the theater.

Speaker 2 I mean, it's just,

Speaker 2 I did the analysis here. Comcast gets somewhere between $200 and $300,000 in revenue per employee.

Speaker 2 Pivot right now, this year, will get easily over a million dollars per employee because our means of production are so much less expensive that things are so much more profitable.

Speaker 3 So you're saying our applying our own makeup and having a shitty background is really good business.

Speaker 3 Now, you have a good one. You always have a good background.
Can I ask you a specific question?

Speaker 3 What I thought was interesting was all these ideas of Netflix moving in, and I know you talked to them for a second, moving into podcasting. This isn't really moving into it.
It's taking two things.

Speaker 3 It's taking advantage of the current environment and playing into your strength, which is

Speaker 3 distribution, one. And two, they're requiring people not to be on YouTube, which is a big shift.
So obviously they're declaring

Speaker 3 YouTube their enemy, their only enemy. But

Speaker 3 exactly right. Because I bet if we did that, something like that, they wouldn't require us not to go on CNN or not record, they don't care, right?

Speaker 3 So, so talk about if that's a good trade for people not to go on YouTube, because to me, YouTube is television, and this is sort of early territory. And then the idea that

Speaker 3 they're just dipping, they're not really going to produce podcasts the way they produce, I don't know,

Speaker 3 K-pop demon hunters or whatever it happens to be.

Speaker 2 They will soon. They're going to learn.

Speaker 2 They have 100 and

Speaker 2 they control, other than the Google query box, it's probably the most valuable real estate in the world, is that home screen on Netflix.

Speaker 2 150 million people will watch what they put on that home screen. So within 24 months, they're dipping their toe.
They're going to learn about it.

Speaker 2 I bet within 24 to 36 months, Netflix has three of the 10 biggest podcasts in the world, and they'll be owned and operated by Netflix. And you're exactly right.

Speaker 2 Netflix has said our competitor here is YouTube. So we'll partner with Spotify, but you can't be on YouTube.
But this is what's going to happen. On with Kara Swisher,

Speaker 2 some really talented person at CNN will take the two or three hours of content you have every week, take the best 41 minutes and run it on an hour on CNN, where quite frankly, they don't know what to do with that hour.

Speaker 2 And by the way, it's absolutely, it's negligible incremental cost to you, negligible incremental cost to them, and you split the revenue.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 2 So you're going to see, you're going to see that of the 50 biggest podcasts within 12 months, 12 to 20 of them will be playing on TV. Because what is the problem with cable news?

Speaker 3 It doesn't have good stuff.

Speaker 2 It is a revenue problem, but the bigger problem is the expense side.

Speaker 3 And the content.

Speaker 3 It's the same content. It's not different.
It doesn't, it's like the same airless studio.

Speaker 2 It's not that interesting. And it's really fucking expensive.
When I haul my ass up to Beyond Stephanie Rules show,

Speaker 2 you look at the,

Speaker 2 she does a great job, but the cost of that show, the unions, the makeup, the sound guy, the security staff, the build, I mean, it's just the means of production are so goddamn expensive.

Speaker 2 Whereas if they say, okay, we're going to take 41 minutes of on and we're going to run it after Fareed on Sunday or whatever. And by the way,

Speaker 2 even if we only make half as much revenue, it's going to be a lot more profitable because they're already producing it.

Speaker 3 You know what? I haven't gotten that call.

Speaker 2 Oh, you will. You watch.

Speaker 3 All right. Okay.
By the way, I'm not working for the Allisons, but that's another issue. But go ahead.

Speaker 2 But podcasts are effectively becoming TV shows with a strong audio overlay and, more importantly, a lower means of cost of production. Netflix is dipping their toe in.

Speaker 2 They're going to realize that the next arbitrage is to take content, repurpose it at a very low incremental cost and put it on their distribution platform.

Speaker 2 And everyone else is going to start doing this.

Speaker 2 You're going to see MSNBC take the best political podcasts, carve them up, more graphics, a little bit better hair and makeup, a little bit better production quality.

Speaker 2 And they're going to think, okay, for an hour of reasonably good content, it costs us another 10 or 20 grand, not another 150 grand. We don't need to sell to make as much money here.

Speaker 2 So, anyways, the prediction is of the top 100 podcasts, 12 to 15 of them are going to be playing on cable news and on streaming media within the next 12 to 24 months.

Speaker 3 It's a great idea. Hey, guys, of cable media.
Let's do it. I went to the MSNBC live event.
I thought it was quite good.

Speaker 3 It was well done. I heard it was great.
It was great. And it was fun.

Speaker 3 I gave the person who runs it, Rebecca Cutler, who I have a lot of respect for. She's great and is a big listener of Pivot.

Speaker 3 I sent her some thoughts so that I went to support Stephanie and Rachel and Saki, Ten Saki. And I thought it was good.
It had really, it was a good directional move for them. And it was fun.

Speaker 3 And it probably didn't cost them that much. And they did a super fan dinner.
I thought it was really smart. It was super.
It was a marketing event, but you know,

Speaker 3 let me tell you, there's a lot of crossover fans of MSMBC and Pivot. I took a lot of selfies.

Speaker 3 But I went with George Hahn and it was, we had a good time. It was really, it was well done.
You could see how it could go in even better directions and at a much lower cost.

Speaker 3 Anyway, we want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business tech or whatever's on your mind.
Go to nymag.com/slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT.

Speaker 3 Elsewhere in the Karen Scott universe, as you know, Scott Andrew, Kamala Harris, for on with Kara Swisher.

Speaker 3 Let's listen to a clip. Have you yourself felt with Letitia James being targeted, there's many others, have you felt that you could be targeted, worried about being indicted? Sure, of course.

Speaker 3 For the people that are watching this on radio,

Speaker 3 see what I just did there?

Speaker 3 Of course, I just raised my hand.

Speaker 2 Okay, can we just talk about that for a minute? All right, go ahead. And this is, I think Vice President Harris will make an outstanding Supreme Court justice.

Speaker 2 I thought her debate performance was one of the great performances in political history. I voted for her.
I give money to her campaign.

Speaker 2 That answer embodies why she should not run for president and why she is not president. She had an opportunity there.

Speaker 2 That was a layup to talk about a move towards authoritarianism, how dangerous the chill is, how she is committed to being a leader and speaking up despite the risk to her professional career.

Speaker 2 Instead, she just said, of course, that perfectly embodied why she does not capture the imagination or the passion required to be the president of the United States. Let me be fair.

Speaker 3 She did talk about it a lot during the interview, right? So maybe

Speaker 3 she did. And the second part is she really did predict.
She did say all this stuff that was going to happen step by step.

Speaker 3 And she was astonishingly accurate and prescient because she understood it as a prosecutor, what these people do, what these mobster turn autocrats do.

Speaker 3 I would, you know, it was interesting. I got a lot of feedback from

Speaker 3 Republican-leaning people like who liked it. Like I really liked it because there was a positive negatives in it.
Most all of them agreed that her campaign was excellent for most of it, not all of it.

Speaker 3 But

Speaker 3 she was a little salty, I have to say. And I did think it really compared to

Speaker 3 Buddha Jej, who had a very different vibe, right?

Speaker 3 So it'll be, I'm going to be introducing all of these people as you have done a number of them.

Speaker 3 And so I'm going to be interested to see compare and contrast all of them. But you're right, that was an opportunity.
But I think she didn't want to get to be righteous lady.

Speaker 3 I think she didn't want to go full righteous lady there, but

Speaker 3 and wanted to seem brave, I guess.

Speaker 2 Do you get the sense? I mean, you know her and she likes you. And you like, well, I don't know if you like her.
I think you're, I think you're supportive and kind to her.

Speaker 2 Do you think she's, she's, do you think she wants to run?

Speaker 3 I couldn't tell from the thing. I thought I would know.

Speaker 3 She probably will. She has the highest name recognition.
Let's be clear. Everyone knows who she is and the others, they don't know as well, right? That's just the way things are.

Speaker 3 So she and Newsom are the best known people. But watching Newsom trot right by her in the numbers, she's, because he's trotting and so is Buddha Judge.

Speaker 3 Part of me feels like she, I don't know well enough to say, but I felt like, I don't know if she really want it. wants it, right? Does that make sense? Like she certainly,

Speaker 3 I don't know. I think the,

Speaker 3 I think she ran a great campaign and she was hindered a lot by the Biden stuff and what she couldn't do.

Speaker 3 And I know you said she should have said something, but boy, would that have been a move by someone who's already cautious. But

Speaker 3 I don't know. I couldn't, I don't, afterwards, I didn't, I couldn't say, I couldn't say.
But you're right. She'd be a great Supreme Court justice also.

Speaker 3 But we'll see if we get the chance to put her in course.

Speaker 3 I think maybe she isn't going to run. I'm going to make a prediction.
I don't know. She'll be mad if I see this, but I got the sense that maybe she's still on the fence about it.
And that's it.

Speaker 3 Anyway, we'll see.

Speaker 3 I don't know.

Speaker 2 Speaking of people who are running, I had Ram Emmanuel on our

Speaker 2 aging moderate.

Speaker 3 He's actually very good.

Speaker 2 He is. He's very good.
He's very smart.

Speaker 3 Very enthusiastic. Very smart.
He's doing the work. He's writing op-eds.
He's going on all the podcasts.

Speaker 2 He's very smart, very practical.

Speaker 3 Yeah, he has a lot of non-fans in Chicago, though, and even he knows this. But speaking of which, we're going on tour.
We're going to be going to Toronto, sold out. New York almost sold out.

Speaker 3 D.C., I think it's very close to being sold out. Chicago is lagging a little bit, although we've sold a lot of tickets and we're in a very big theater compared to the others.

Speaker 3 But Chicago, let's fucking keep up. Come on, Chicago.
It's an extra large venue for you guys because you're, you know, you're the city of big shoulders. Anyway, come see us there.

Speaker 3 And please stay away from scalpers and third-party sellers. We don't want people to take advantage of you just to come and see us.

Speaker 3 I'm getting a lot of inquiries from people who want to go to the sold-out cities. I'm unable to help.
We're not getting very many cops.

Speaker 3 They're like, no, you can have two, or something like that. Um, anyway, we're very excited.
Are you excited for our tour? Yeah, I am.

Speaker 2 Seven cities and seven nights.

Speaker 3 And your book is, let me just say, let me give a plug: your book is coming out that week, too. So, let's get it on the top of the New York Times bestseller lists.
Okay, the number one.

Speaker 3 Let's give it number one.

Speaker 2 I appreciate that.

Speaker 3 We want to make that happen. It's a big, important topic, and everyone is interested in it: Republicans, Democrats,

Speaker 3 TBA, whatever you happen to be. Um, I'm going to get a copy each for both of my sons.
And

Speaker 3 Saul would have one, but he doesn't read.

Speaker 2 Just real quick, speaking of Chicago, my wife likes to talk on the phone during sex. And last night she called me from Chicago.

Speaker 3 I don't even think that

Speaker 3 work.

Speaker 3 See, now I'm thinking about the mechanics of that.

Speaker 2 I touched that on a lot of levels. Put me in the Republican, young Republican chat.
I'm ready.

Speaker 3 Anyway. That's the show.
Thanks for listening to Pivot and be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back next week.
Scott, read us out.

Speaker 2 Today's show was produced by Lara Naiman, Zoe Marcus, and Taylor Griffin. Bernie Andretaut engineered this episode.
Jim Mackle edited the video. Thanks also to Drew Bros, Ms.
Severo, and Dan Shallon.

Speaker 2 Yeshua Kuro is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform.
Thank you for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media.

Speaker 2 You can subscribe to the magazine nymag.com slash pod. We'll be back later in the week for another breakdown of all things tech and business.