VP Picks Her VP

Three distinct all-electric Cadillacs.

Some drive them for the performance.

Others drive them for the range.

And some drive them because it's the only way to make an entrance.

Three different ways to turn every drive into an occasion.

Whatever your reason, there's never been a better time to say,

let's take the Cadillac.

The all-electric Cadillac family of vehicles.

Escalate IQ, Optic, and Lyric. Welcome to Pod Save America.
I'm Jon Favreau. I'm Jon Lovett.
Tommy's on vacation this week, though not sure how restful it's been. A lot of news.
A lot of news. What do you think's going on? On today's show, Kamala Harris adds some Democratic all-stars to her staff as she and her new running mate barnstorm the battlegrounds this week.
Trump is in meltdown mode as he refuses to debate Kamala Harris without a security blanket of MAGA supporters and whines about her crowd size in Atlanta. And RFK Jr.
tweets a video of him telling Roseanne about the time he hit a dead bear cub in Central Park when he ran out of time to eat it. More on that later.
Yeah, following this developing story. You can just go back a couple seconds.
I did say that sentence just to hear it again. Yeah.
The dead bear cub in Central Park. Under a bicycle.
Under a bicycle. We're going to get into it.
But first, we are recording this Monday afternoon, but by the time you hear it on Tuesday, it is highly likely that Kamala Harris will have announced her running mate. Reporting indicates the campaign will be releasing a video just before the VP appears with her VP pick at a rally in Philly on Tuesday night.
Campaign is looking to keep their momentum going for the third straight week. The polling averages and models are now showing a tied race, and a few, like Nate Silvers, even have Harris in the lead for the first time.
Her outstanding campaign team is also getting some help from some of the most successful campaign operatives in the Democratic Party, who also happen to be our good pals. David Plouffe, who led Barack Obama to victory in 2008 and 2012, is joining as senior advisor.
Mitch Stewart, who ran the Iowa caucuses for Obama in 2008 and went on to oversee all the swing states in 2012, will be a senior advisor for battleground states. Longtime Democratic comms pro Stephanie Cutter and Jen Palmieri are heading back in.
And the list goes on. Gang's all here.
Obama's 11. That's pretty good.
I didn't even prepare that. That just happened.
David Binder's going to be there. It's just, they've got a great crew yeah and jen o'malley dylan of course uh an obama person before she was a biden person remains campaign manager and her fantastic team that has been uh working on this campaign now probably in their minds forever so we will get to the vp selection in a bit but first what was your reaction to the staffing news and what talk about some of the challenges of adding all that new talent to an existing campaign.
I had like sort of two reactions, which was first to once again pause to note how well the campaign has done under extraordinarily strange and unique circumstances. that there was such a dramatic shift in how the campaign operated once Kamala became the person that they were rallying behind that just spoke to how much talent was already there waiting to be deployed if they had kind of I think the right energy the right enthusiasm and the right person to get.
The other strange aspect of all of this is, now, we went through this in 2008. After Obama secures the nomination, that campaign has to grow.
There's this Hillary Clinton campaign sitting side by side with it that had been fighting it through every single state that also had a lot of really great and talented people. And so as that Obama campaign becomes a general election campaign, it's supposed to a primary campaign, you see them starting to hire some of the people they fought so hard against.
And that integration process is interesting. It's personal.
It's people deciding that they're going to put the campaign fights behind them. There's questions about like, you know, it's often some of the hardest people are like spokespeople who might have been out there saying things about the campaign.
But on the most part, everybody recognizes that we're now on the same team. What's interesting here is there wasn't a primary.
That didn't take place. But the Biden campaign was, I think, first of all, had fewer senior leaders in Delaware.
It was like more run out of the White House. So they just need these kind of voices

to come into the fold to like help a team

that's already doing so well.

Yeah, there's a few reasons why I think they needed this crew,

partly because Joe Biden had been in politics for so long

that he had this sort of small circle of senior advisors

that were really close to him.

Mike Donilon, Anita Dunn,

who's now gonna be at a super PAC supporting Kamala harris um steve rschetti a few others so i think that that kamala harris inherited like everyone from jen o'malley dylan on down that whole staff like could stay right where they are and they're going to be fantastic and they've been and they've been great but she needs people who have been like on a successful national presidential campaign to be communications and messaging advisors and to sort of be like your big think strategist kind of people. Right.
And that's what Plouffe does. And that's what Cutter and Palmieri do.
And certainly Mitch when it comes to the battleground states. So it is a fantastic crew.
It gave me like a lot of I just felt felt really good. Oh yeah, no, you said security blanket.
It just, it felt like, it felt like a security blanket. And then, and just the fact that like, this is also like, they're not drawing on a year of what it was like for Kamala Harris to be campaigning in Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, which you might've had if there had been a longer primary or a longer campaign.
So of course they need people who have a ton of experience, you know, making strategy for those kinds of places because they haven't been on the ground testing things and trying things and figuring out what works. And she knows them and they know each other, right? Like Jen knows all the Obama people, obviously, because she was one.
And Kamala Harris, one of Barack Obama's earliest supporters in 2007, she was like, I remember being in the Des Moines, Iowa field office her and maya harris like knocking on doors right before the caucuses in 08 so the whole like i know when everyone was waiting for obama to endorse kamala harris there was like some some questions like oh does he really support or whatever like they've known each other for a long long time and are quite close was i'm like my brain was there a joke where he got in trouble yes yes and when he, he did say that she was one of the, she's a great attorney general and one of the best looking attorney generals in the country. And then he's general.
And then we did a joke at the correspondence dinner where Barack Obama references the fact that he said this about attorney general Kamala Harris and said he had to apologize for calling Kamala Harris the best looking attorney general in the country, he had to apologize to Eric Holder.

Right.

That was a good joke.

That was a good joke.

I remember that.

Glad he apologized.

Anyway.

It's just something that happened.

Campaigns also bringing back our pal Liz Allen,

who's currently the Undersecretary of State for Public Diplomacy, to be the Chief of Staff for Kamala's VP pick.

Liz was VP Harris's Communications Director when she was the VP pick back in 2020. So this is a little inside baseball, but I do think the other challenge with bringing on a running mate is integrating the two teams because you pick a running mate and then you need an entire staff for the running mate, an entire campaign operation for the running mate.
What are some of the considerations there? Well, just the day the person is chosen to be the vice presidential candidate, they're plugged into an organization and a schedule that is full, right? And that is an operation that takes a ton of people. And whoever it is, whether they're a senator or a governor or a secretary of transportation or what have you, they don't have that kind of operation.
And more importantly, that operation isn't plugged into the campaign. And because you don't know, maybe until the day before, you know, we're recording this on Monday afternoon, the campaign is telling people right now that she hasn't made her mind up, this will be someone at an event tomorrow, then you just have to have that organization built.
And then you assume that once the person is chosen, they will bring along their people that will plug into this operation. And then it just becomes an organic question of personalities and people working together and figuring out how to make it work in real time.
Sometimes, sometimes it's easier than other times. Yeah.
You need, you need some Harris people on the team, in this case, Harris people to make sure the VP is on message and isn't like doing their own thing. Yeah.
But you also want to make the b the vp pick feel comfortable with some of their own people so it's just a question of it's you know it has almost always worked in situations i've been in i was we were on the carry campaign when john edwards was picked and those teams integrated quite well and to the point we were just making about adding all the staff back then when carry won the primary and it was the general a lot of of Bill Clinton's advisors and strategists joined the campaign in D.C. as pollsters, strategists, whatever else.
And then in the Obama campaign, Biden and the Biden people sort of fit in very well and everyone got along and it was great. I remember when the Obama campaign named Hillary Clinton's former campaign manager, Patty Sleese Doyle, to be the chief of staff to whoever the VP would be, who had turned out to be Joe Biden.
Do you remember in 2004 when there was tension because John Edwards wanted to use hope is on the way versus help is on the way? Yes. And there was like a- That's a stupid thing.
And so that- As a placard at the convention. Yes, as a placard.
He wanted to do, so the Kerry campaign message was help is on the way. And it worked.
Help never came. Yeah, and yeah.
Yeah, sort of, yeah, DoorDash has canceled your order. But Edwards wanted to do hope because that was his, he wanted to do hope.
So he wanted to do his version, which was hope is on the way. So on his night, there were just completely different signs for hope is on the way what does this have to do with pettysolus doyle and anything else just let's do sometimes there's tension between a vice presidential candidate and a presidential candidate sometimes they bring their own i thought that was clear you went out you were getting nods i'm getting nods adrian's in yeah no great okay all right as for the vp pick uh as much as we hoped selfishly it would have leaked by the time of this recording,

and I guess we still got time,

it hasn't.

The latest reporting

is that the final choice

has come down to

Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro

and Minnesota Governor Tim Walls.

And of course,

the reporting could be wrong.

We could all be surprised

by a dark horse.

Who knows?

But here's what we're going to do

for all you fine people.

We're going to do one reaction

as if it's Shapiro,

one reaction as if it's Walls,

and one reaction

as if it was a total surprise. And we're going to really try to put ourselves in that mindset.
All right, let's do it. Ready? Here we go.
Love it, she did it. Kamala Harris chose Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro as her vice presidential pick.
Always knew it was going to be Shapiro. Always wanted to be Shapiro.
I love Walls, but secretly I really wanted Shapiro. What do you think? Why'd she do it? And what does Josh Shapiro bring to the ticket? So first of all, Josh Shapiro is a very popular governor in Pennsylvania.
Popularity that has exceeded recent Pennsylvania governors up to this point. And he has also won in parts of Pennsylvania where he has outperformed even other figures that are that are popular in the state like John Fetterman.
He is a former attorney general. So now we have two attorney generals going after a criminal.
I really like what that story says. And he fixed I-95.
Which is one of your biggest, one of the biggest pluses for you. In two fucking weeks.
You've been talking about that forever. I have.
So I'm a huge fan of Josh Behr. I think she chose the person who is most likely to help her win the election.
Yeah. And the reason is because the importance of Pennsylvania cannot be overstated.
If Kamala Harris does not win Pennsylvania, it is very, very difficult. She has very few paths to 270 without Pennsylvania.
If she does Arizona, Michigan, Nevada, Wisconsin, doesn't work without Pennsylvania. Arizona, Georgia, Nevada, Wisconsin, doesn't work without Pennsylvania.
Like there's so many, she has to basically run the table on not just the other blue wall states, but Arizona and Georgia and Nevada are some combination of those three if she doesn't have Pennsylvania. So that's why it's known as the tipping point state.
So incredibly important to win Pennsylvania. Now, does Josh Shapiro automatically get her Pennsylvania? Absolutely not.
But like you said, wildly popular, 60% approval rating, doesn't happen a lot, including an approval rating of over 90% with Democratic voters, with young voters, with black and brown voters. He's super he's super popular he's young dynamic executive experience which is what she wanted there were criticisms of shapiro for on a few different issues one was uh israel some folks on left were concerned that josh shapiro uh you know when he was 20 he wrote a college essay thing that he didn't believe in a two-state solution he now does believe in a two-state solution he said uh he said some other things in that essay that i think he clearly doesn't believe anymore who's in college yeah when he was in college he's 20 years old um there was also some concern about like what he said about campus protesters even though he said every campus protester has a right to protest peacefully and that like the vast majority of encampments and college uh protesters um were like he had no problems on whatsoever and they were not anti-Semitic.
He said that specifically, but he said those protesters who were spouting anti-Semitic tropes specifically explicitly, he said if white supremacists were doing something like that, we would treat them differently. Yeah.
So in that, this is I think people have said that, oh, he's comparing student protesters to the KKK, which I think is like a deeply ungenerous interpretation, not only of that sentence, but the broader interview. He is simply saying that if someone was spouting something really, really anti-Semitic, that if a member of the KKK was saying something really, really racist, that you should not put, you should hold these things to the same standard.
But in that same interview, he says, because Jake Tapper confronts him and says, these are not protesters coming from the right.

These are protesters coming from the left. And he says, even though we may disagree on policy, that these are people with strongly held and even righteous views.
He says that in the same interview. So obviously he is not in the same breath describing student protesters as righteous members of the KKK.
He's making a distinction, which I like. He was obviously not saying that.
Let's leave it there. And then the other issue was he had some opposition to his support for some kind of school vouchers and charter schools, though I'll point out that the Pennsylvania chapters of the American Federation of Teachers and another Pennsylvania State Union did endorse him.
And they actually said, we don't agree with everyone on every issue, but he's been really good on education overall. And so we're going to support Josh Shapiro.
So I do think, look, the divisions in opposition to Shapiro that have appeared on Twitter and in the media, they are real, right? But they are just not representative of how most voters or most Democratic voters feel about Josh Shapiro, particularly Democratic voters who know him in Pennsylvania. Very progressive ones, very young voters, all of them.
And by the way, that doesn't mean having these criticisms of Josh Shapiro's positions isn't a valid thing to express and to make sure that the the Harris Shapiro campaign doesn't honor what your concerns are, right? Like this campaign will reflect this big, broad coalition. And so the question is not what is Josh Shapiro's position or what was his position? It is what is the position of this campaign and this presidency, which will obviously come from Vice President Kamala Harris.
So if people have concerns, they should express them, right? But this campaign is in a reflection of the views of Josh Shapiro that you disagree. And again, Pennsylvania in 2020, Joe Biden won by one to two points, okay? And right now the polls are tied.
And if Josh Shapiro even helps Kamala Harris half a point in Pennsylvania, three quarters of a point in Pennsylvania, it could mean the entire election. Right.
And so like that's that everything that Kamala Harris has done since Joe Biden stepped aside and she announced her campaign has screamed. I'm in it to win it.
I'm in it to win this thing. I'm going to do it.
And I do think that's, that is the Josh Shapiro pick in a nutshell. I think if Josh Shapiro, all things being equal, if Josh Shapiro was the governor of Minnesota and Tim Walls was the governor of Pennsylvania with everything else being equal, I think that of course she would pick Tim Walls and not Josh Shapiro because it's Pennsylvania.
Yeah, I think that's right yeah okay love it she did it she did it kamala harris has been waltz pilled and selected the minnesota governor as her vice presidential pick what do you think i knew it was gonna be waltz and i secretly honestly i didn't want to say but i always wanted to be fucking waltz i was waltz pilled from the fucking beginning it was always meant to be waltz i think it was his appearance right here on pod save america friend of the show. He came into the office just a month or two before that with Tommy before the whole Walsh pilled craze.
Yeah. Get a seat at the goddamn table.
All right. What does Walsh bring to the ticket? Why'd she do it in the end? What's going on? So first of all, I think it is amazing how Tim Walsh has gone from who to the vice presidential pick in a matter of weeks in part just on this.
You were that with him yeah on in the interview i was we guys big guy why are we hiding this guy in the fucking

in in a bushel you know he should be shining in the tundra yeah he should be shining that's what

yeah they got yeah in the iron minnesota we love you minnesota yeah hide him in the dairy but first

of all it is an incredible thing to do a vice presidential audition and issue a message that like catches fire nationwide.

That's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's,

that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that the dairy. But first of all, it is an incredible thing to do a vice presidential audition and issue a message that catches fire nationwide.
That's first. And then I think second, once people started hearing from Tim Walz and seeing how he delivers a message and then diving into his background and his story, not just about where he comes from, but how he's governed, he became an exciting kind of representation of what we want this ticket to be, even if obviously Josh Shapiro might bring more to one state, that Tim Walz brings something to the whole ticket to compete, not just in Minnesota, but Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Michigan.
Yeah. If you're going just by what is going to help Kamala Harris win, you could say that Tim Walz sounds and looks like the kind of voter who may decide the election, which is the Obama Trump voter from a small town or rural area who is tired of Trump, but not necessarily sold on Kamala Harris.
Maybe they weren't, they might not have been sold on Joe Biden because of his age or whatever else. They might not yet be sold on Kamala Harris because, you know, she's portrayed as a San Francisco liberal, right? But Tim Walls, you can send into any small town in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Michigan, and he is going to connect with people like he's been connecting with people all through this audition process.
I think that he's obviously fantastic on TV. And according to John Heilman and Puck, that caught the eye of Kamala Harris herself and some people close around her.
So she really liked that he was he performed so well on television. The resume, of course, is outstanding.
Veteran social studies teacher, football coach, rural town, wildly accomplished record as governor in Minnesota with the Democratic trifecta. Like just with a with a with a with a one vote majority.
I mean, like they they like they have put places like California and New York to fucking shame. They like have used the power that they were given and they've been unafraid of doing it.
And it's been really awesome watching Tim Walz defend that record when he's asked about it, right? Like, oh, are you too liberal? And he's like, I'll never apologize for making sure kids have food in their bellies when they're learning in school. And so I think that was all very inspiring.
And like, obviously, there is a contradiction here. And like, well, what are you looking to get out of your VP, right? One is just like, we got to win fucking Pennsylvania.
And that's why we need Josh Shapiro. The other is people don't vote based on who the VP is.
Right. Paul Ryan didn't deliver Wisconsin.
The VP pick is a reflection of the person at the top of the ticket. And what does it tell you about them? And that what Tim Wall says is more powerful, not just in Pennsylvania, but in Michigan, in Wisconsin, and everywhere we have to win.
And also, like Shapiro would have been, he is young, dynamic, executive experience, governor, right? That's what she wanted. And also he ended up getting a lot of endorsements at the end.
So everyone from, you had Nancy Pelosi endorsed him, Bernie Sanders, the UAW, or at least said that they wanted him to be picked. And I do think that speaks to probably why she ended up with him over Shapiro is this was the let's not rock any boats pick and like most people in party won't be upset some pundits some folks will say oh she caved to progressives but i don't really think that matters as much as like what she says and does with regards to her own position and messaging right like whatever her her vp is yeah now the the challenge is he probably he has a bunch of votes in a record that probably haven't been as vetted because he wasn't like the front runner like Shapiro.
But that's like a small that's a small thing.

Yeah, the other, I also like, I just like the story of it and what it says about her, right? Like, Tim Walls wasn't on anyone's shortlist from the beginning. And the fact that like, from this process, he emerges, and she kind of defies the expectation where which started with Kelly and Shapiro and Pritzker and a few others and ends up going with this Minnesota governor that doesn't deliver that, that is from a state that if, if we need, we're in trouble elsewhere anyway.
It'll kind of like speak to the leadership qualities you want in your president, right? That they like, that she sat down and felt most comfortable with this person based on who he is, not based on some other, not based on some like kind of objective political calculus. Love it.
Wow. Yeah.
Complete surprise. Maybe for you.
A dark horse just fell out of the coconut tree. Kamala Harris for her running mate has selected George Santos? Yeah.
Weird. Look, I always knew it was going to be somebody like Santos out of left field.
Kind of, I don't know. I don don't have it.
I mean, I guess we could still get a Kelly. We could still get a Bashir.
Who else? You know, it seems like they're signaling that it's a governor. But, you know, it could also be a Pete, right? I guess Pete's schedule.
Oh, yeah. I just saw that Pete's schedule is in Maine or something.
Pete's schedule suggests he's elsewhere. Yeah, I mean, look, there's a lot of speculation and like, you know, this is the person that she's leaning towards is the person.
It's like nobody really knows. It's a decision she's making right now.
Just her and Doug. Yeah, I mean, look, I and again, I'll say this before we know who it's going to be.
I genuinely will be very happy if it's either Walls or Shapiro. I haven't sat down with these people like she has.
Right. Like I don't I didn't do the interview process.
I didn't look at the internal polling in Pennsylvania to see exactly how much Josh Shapiro helps or doesn't help. So like in my mind, when I think about, you know, I've been in it to win it the entire time.
This is why we thought that Biden should step aside, right? This whole thing. It's like, this isn't about ideologies or personalities.
This is about how can we beat Donald Trump? So I lean like slightly towards Shapiro for that. But again, I think Walls has so much upside and so much talent that I would be like very happy.
Yeah, I have either of them. My feeling on this is that like I also would be happy either way and like have interviewed them both and come away from my interviews with both being like extraordinarily excited and impressed.
And when we were like I like when I interviewed Shapiro, when we were pennsylvania i was shapiro pilled and i've been shapiro pilled i'm taking both pills all right i got a shapiro pill i got a walls pill all right i take them both every morning with a glass of home maybe that gets you a dark horse but um there was a story that i think i don't remember when it came out but it was a it was a it was a story that came out after out after the Kerry Edwards campaign about an uncomfortable moment between John Kerry and John Edwards, where Edwards said something to John Kerry about his son who passed away and how he told John Kerry, I've never told anyone this story, but I want to tell you this story. And it was meant to convey to John Kerry how much John Edwards was moved by the opportunity to be vice president, but it made John Kerry deeply uncomfortable because John Edwards had forgotten that he'd already told John Kerry that story.
And despite his misgivings about John Edwards as a person, he chose John Edwards. He didn't trust his gut.
He went a different direction. And I just think with this kind of decision- Are you saying John Edwards is untrustworthy? He's in purgatory.
He can't get out of purgatory because of what happened and everything else.

But I don't even know.

John Edwards lives in another world

between life and death.

But anyway, all that's a way of saying,

like, I think all the calculations aside,

like, I think something about Walls

feels very exciting in this moment.

And I don't know.

You can't put your finger exactly on why.

But that makes me lean a little

towards my man walls.

Let's face it.

After a night with drinks, even just a couple, it can be hard to bounce back the next day

to wake up feeling fresh.

There's ZBiotics Pre-Alcohol Probiotic Drink, a probiotic invented by PhD scientists to break down look at ZBiotics. slash pod15 and use pod15 at checkout.
Look, we know things don't feel great right now, but we can equip ourselves for the unprecedented months ahead without letting the news overwhelm us. Join us each week at Strict Scrutiny as we break down the cases that will decide the rules we all have to live by.
We'll supplement your daily news diet with a dose of necessary legal analysis and a healthy serving of our Real Housewives takes, some pop music, and 90s throwbacks because we believe there's no better way to unwind after an oral argument than by watching a stupid reality TV argument.

Subscribe to Strict Scrutiny wherever you get your podcasts and don't forget to check out full episodes on YouTube.

Three distinct all-electric Cadillacs. Some drive them for the performance.
on YouTube. into an occasion.
Whatever your reason, there's never been a better time to say, let's take the Cadillac. The all-electric Cadillac family of vehicles.
Escalate IQ, Optic, and Lyric. There's one other big unresolved question about the next few months, and that's whether there will be at least one debate between Kamala Harris and Donald Trump.
Late last week, Trump said he's backing out of the previously scheduled ABC debate on September 10th because Joe Biden pulled out of the race and because he's suing ABC over that contentious George Stephanopoulos interview way back when, which I can barely even remember right now. Trump said that he instead wants to attend a Fox News debate on September 4th in Pennsylvania with, quote, a full arena audience in attendance.
The Harris campaign did not take the bait. Kamala Harris wrote on Twitter, quote, it's interesting how anytime, anyplace becomes one specific time, one specific safe space.
I like that. I'll be there on September 10th, like he agreed to.
I hope to see him there. Awesome.
Why do you think Trump backed out? I think he's an undisciplined mess and wanted to give Kamala Harris, like it doesn't realize he's giving Kamala Harris yet another great news cycle. I also think he wants to renegotiate these debates on more favorable terms.
Like the reality is that like Donald Trump can't get more. No one in history has ever gotten more out of a debate than Donald Trump got out of the first debate.
It is not possible for him to get anything better out of this debate. He really only, I think it's hard to see how he doesn't stand to lose.
So that means I think he has more to lose, which means he has more reason to pull out and try to renegotiate slightly better terms, right? Yeah. First of all, we should say that his excuses are bullshit.
The suit against ABC was filed in March before he already agreed to the ABC debate with Biden. So the whole George Stephanopoulos thing is not a real, that's not a real excuse.
He's generally scared to debate. He was in the primaries, in the Republican primaries.
He just wasn't scared to debate Joe Biden. And then he had the appearance we talked about last week at the National Association of Black Journalists, where he just had a fucking meltdown and was completely undisciplined and unhinged.
And I think he probably feels like

he's going to look old and probably too angry and a little unhinged next to Kamala Harris.

It's also a lot of work. He has to do work.
He doesn't want to do the work. He's doing one event

this week. He just really doesn't want to work very hard.
He was very pleased with the schedule

Joe Biden had him on, right? Because he could just, he could, you know, go out on the

I'm going to go bride and groom do a do a couple videos get back to his ipad yeah djing mar-a-lago once the trial was over now he is probably thinking that by trying to go for the fox thing it will be conflated in voters minds as like she wanted her media outlet media outlet, he wanted his media outlet, they couldn't agree, too bad, it's all a mess. Like, that's what he's going for now.
What do you think of Harris's response? I think it's great. I think it's like, everything is about this new and energetic campaign versus this old and lumbering and boring and spent Donald Trump.
The fact that he's playing into it is delightful and great. You know, we talked about how it can be hard, especially this phase of the campaign, to keep winning news cycles or to keep out there.
And this is just a way to keep that going. Gets you to the VP pick.
The VP pick gets you to the convention. The convention gets you to the fall.
Yeah. The idea that Kamala Harris should ever agree to a Fox News debate with an audience, with a Fox News selected audience, is completely insane.

It's just like, of course not. Of course that's what Donald Trump wants.
He wants to turn this into a cage match, right? And I do find it like it's interesting thinking about.

So basically, the Harris campaign believes thatc has said when they agreed that if one of them backs out they will still hold the debate and give that one candidate airtime now that is quite valuable for kamala harris to have 90 minutes to herself on prime time i do wonder if then i mean she'll still have to prep for that because there's going to be journalists who are like well we're going to ask her super tough questions right now if she you know does well there then she'll have been introduced on her own terms and define being able to define herself in front of an extremely large audience just weeks before early voting starts in pennsylvania on september 16th by the way yeah so like that's a real i guess i, it's September 10th. So it's six days before early voting starts.
It's a little bit, you know, the campaign saying I'll be there and this will be happening whether Trump comes or not is quite a nice thing for the campaign to be able to say. I wonder if ABC wouldn't feel obligated to offer Trump an interview as well, kind of in the format on the debate and do two interviews um yeah they could do that yeah i i also like it i also think like it matters what happens with the polling like you know the we now see like the nate silver model now has uh kamala ahead for the very first time but if you dive into the numbers if you go based on where the averages are at in every state, it is right now, according to that model, 270 to 268, right? Kamala winning by two electoral votes, one of which is the Nebraska electoral vote.
So this thing is fucking tied. So close.
And if there's this $300 million war chest, the campaign is getting into a good swing. Trump is having bad news cycle after bad news cycle.
Kamala Harris is having good news cycle after good news cycle. If the polls start to shift, I think Trump will start to become more and more open to a debate.
And I do think now the negotiations are back to being open. And like, honestly, I don't think that that's unreasonable, right? Like it is a different candidate.
I think that he should just accept the ABC debate because that's probably something more akin to what the format should be and would be if they just he negotiated this anyway no it's not going to be the fox news fucking thunderdome with with sean haddeny and a bunch of maga goons sitting behind him like that's obviously ridiculous but it's all just a negotiation yeah i'm trying to think though about to your point about the polls like so she announces her vp that usually is a good couple news cycles you know if it Shapiro, I'm sure there'll be some griping on the left and there'll be a little Democratic division thing here and there. But overall, it'll probably be a good week.
Then we have next week and then there's the convention. And a convention for whichever party has the convention is always good for them.
You always get some kind of bounce or at least you don't get overtaken during the convention, you know, because you're on TV all the time. And so are all of the other Democrats making the case for you.
So the convention then ends around August 22nd. So now we're like.
We're two weeks from voting beginning. Well, it went to the debate because then so then I'm trying to think of like if Kamala Harris is either still tied or ahead, at what point would Donald Trump feel like he actually needs that debate? And then also, yes.
But then there's also what happens between Vance and whoever the Democratic person is. And there's going to be a vice presidential debate while the presidential candidate is refusing.
Are they going to refuse to do both? That's deeply strange. So now you got Walls or Shapiro, Barnstorming the country, saying they want to debate J.D.
Vance, which, of course, they do, because what a treat. And for all of us.
Right. And Kamala Harris is saying, debate me, Trump, debate me, Trump.
Like one of the reasons Biden proposed this early debate was because they understood that they were in this sort of vicious circle of Trump saying, debate me, debate me, debate me, debate me. And so he had to like break out of the tit for tat to make it clear that he wanted to debate more than Trump wanted to debate.
So it didn't seem like a concession. Like Trump's backing himself into this where showing up to debate is going to seem like he's afraid.
Right. Which is why I don't know that he can even if he needs to.
I don't know if he can just show up now. They might have to do like a third proposal of a debate.
No, I think that's where maybe maybe we're headed for like one in October or something. Or it is the ABC debate, but there's some change to the rules.
Maybe they add like a fucking Brett Bear or Fox News person or something like that. Who knows? Regardless, Trump seems quite angry and scared right now, which is always when he's at his most effective and disciplined.
We played the clip last week of Harris in Atlanta saying to Trump, if you've got something to say, say it to my face as the crowd went nuts. Trump was in the same venue on Saturday at Georgia State.
He got a good crowd as well, and he was in full insult and grievance mode. Let's listen.
Crazy Kamala, ultra left, you know that. She was here a week ago, lots of empty seats, but the crowd she got was because she had entertainers.
I don't need entertainers. I filled the stadium because I'm making America great again.
That's our entertainment. That's our entertainment, making America great again.
She's Bernie Sanders, but not as smart. That's the way I hear it.
I said she's a dumb version of Bernie Sanders and actually further left than him. And we're going to defeat crazy Kamala.
Kamala. You know, there's about 19 different ways of saying it.
She only likes three. The choice of this election could not be more stark.
On the one hand, you have a radical left freak. You have a candidate who is fake, fake, fake.
On the other hand, you have a president who will fight, fight, fight for America. Fight, fight.

So he's really, he's testing, he's throwing spaghetti at the wall there. See what sticks.
Radical a freak we're at. Remember? We're in trouble.
We can't get to call these people weird. I think this is challenging because he is used to like the country had a very set opinion of Hillary Clinton in 2016.

The country has a fairly set opinion of Joe Biden, right?

Specifically in 2024.

In 2020, they still knew Joe Biden a lot, but you know, he had not been on the top of the ticket, right?

Like Kamala Harris, people know her name ID is obviously very high, but like they haven't successfully defined her yet. She hasn't maybe defined herself yet.
But so Trump sort of doing a shortcut by just calling her freak left, Bernie Sanders, dumb. Like, I don't know that that lands unless you lay the predicate for it, which he and his campaign have not done yet.
And which they couldn't do because there wasn't time, right? Like it is like what I was thinking about, like, you know, Donald Trump gets credited for being this like idiot savant when it comes to branding. And it's like, well, let's take a step back on that.
Right. Like, wow.
He managed to paint the dumbest fucking group of bozos in the Republican Party as bozos. Like, was that that hard? Like Hillary Clinton had faced decades of right wing attacks and misogynist attacks that left her with an impression in the public as a career politician, Clinton corruption, all of that, that Donald Trump could prey on.
Joe Biden's biggest liability, Joe Biden, first of all, he couldn't beat Joe Biden the first time. Joe Biden's biggest liability, there's never been a candidate with as clear-cut a single and powerful and widely accepted liability as Joe b biden had with h so of course that wasn't a fucking tough ball for for for trump to swing at kamala harris is more difficult right like saying she's a ultra left freak and calling her a phony those are in conflict right this would happen with how mccain dealt with obama too because it was for a while it was obama's the biggest celebrity in the world and they tried to say, oh, it's sort of like this, she has entertainers, but I'm entertaining because I'm making America great again.
The McCain campaign did a little bit of that. Then they add Palin and then Barack Obama is palling around with terrorists, sinister, other.
There's Barack Obama, the lightweight, Barack Obama, inexperienced, Barack Obama, professorial. I mean, they tried a whole bunch of different things.
And again, a lot of those are in conflict, right? Like, Barack Obama is too smart. Barack Obama is too inexperienced.
Like, you know, obviously black, not black enough, all of that. And like with with, you know, he also, by the way, like last week, you know, went into this racist and ridiculous attack on on her being biracial.
And it was a little noted because it was in the middle of a larger freak out, but like there was an insinuation in his post about he was trying to use the racial attack to claim that she's a phony in some way, like she uses her identity the way she uses everything, which I think is a subtle nod to all the right wing freaks that are saying that Kamala Harris slept her way to the top, which is an attack they want to use against her, which is obviously a misogynist and ridiculous libel. So he's kind of casting about, and a lot of these are kind of, I think, the kinds of attacks that are really going to backfire.
Obviously, this sort of disgusting accusation that he's trying to insinuate is not going to be effective with a lot of people who understand that this is the kind of attack that is basically pointed at anyone who's not a straight white male, who's had some success, and people want to slime. Yeah.
Trump also made some news at the rally that I'm sure his campaign was hoping for. He attacked the popular Republican governor of a crucial swing state.
Here's what he said about Georgia Governor Brian Kemp. not be your governor.
I think everybody knows that. He's the most disloyal guy I think I've ever seen.
Somewhere he went bad. And you know what? Your numbers in Georgia are very average.
Your crime numbers, your economic numbers, all of your numbers, you're very average. You can do a lot better and you'll do a lot better with a better governor.
He's running against Kamala Harris. It's unbelievable.
It's incredible. In a post before the event, Trump also went after Kemp's wife for not endorsing him.
Kemp responded with a tweet saying, my focus is on winning this November and saving our country from Kamala Harris and the Democrats, not engaging in petty personal insults, attacking fellow Republicans, or dwelling on the past. You should do the same, Mr.
President, and leave my family out of it. Oof, message delivered, Brian Kemp.
That has to be, put it in the fucking time capsule, one of the most humiliating, embarrassing statements I've ever seen from a public figure. You keep this up, Mr.
Trump, and I'm gonna fight for you just as hard. Like, the guy's negotiating.
He's always negotiating. Stop attacking my wife and let's focus on working together.
Yeah, stop attacking my wife so that I can keep helping you. You're making it harder for me to help you because of all the attacks you're leveling against my family.
It's very Ted Cruz. Very Ted Cruz.
But also, is attacking the popular governor of a swing state you need? Is that a good strategy? What? What? What was he doing? He must have just like, it's like he's upset. He's upset.
He's in a state. He's in a state.
Trump has been in a state for the last three weeks and he's lashing out. Yes.
He look, he just he'll settle down. He'll settle down.
He's his num nums. But but yeah, it's like he saw a bad poll and he pitched forward to losing and needing somebody to blame.
And so if he's going to lose Georgia, he's not going down for this. Brian Kemp's going down for this.
And by the way, Brian Kemp has a pretty big and sophisticated campaign operation in the state of Georgia that has helped him win several races. And, you know, do I think Kemp's going to just like turn it off and not help him from that tweet? Clearly not.
But, you know, there's things people can do short of like giving it their all for a candidate. Absolutely.
Yeah, right. So Brian K's gonna have a lot of like a lot like he's gonna have others there's other seats there's local races there's a ton of stuff that's gonna mean he's gonna want to mobilize his operation but is he gonna be as strongly barnstorming around across the state trying to help donald trump win like i i don't see why i would i don't think so and georgia is now one of the states where kamala harris is catching donald And she, you know, it's down to a couple points now in Georgia, which it had not been when Biden was running this time around.
It obviously was, you know, the polling in Georgia in 2020 had Biden behind by a couple points most of the time. And then at the end, the Biden campaign was like, we're going to play in Georgia.
And there were a lot of eyebrows raised. I was sort of like, what are they doing in Georgia? And then they won and it were paid off.
So like Georgia is one of those states where the very voters that Kamala Harris is doing better with than Biden had, younger voters, black voters, brown voters, Asian American voters, that the state of Georgia is becoming more diverse and becoming younger because of all the people moving there and moving to like the Atlanta metro area. So that is a, it could be a good state for her.
Yeah, and I just like, one of the reasons Brian Kemp is governor, it is true, it is in part because of Donald Trump, but not in the way Donald Trump thinks. It's because Brian Kemp looked moderate in comparison to Donald Trump.
And there are voters out there, there are voters out there that are Kemp Warnock voters, Kemp Osup voters.

Those are people that could make the difference in November. And those are all people that are going to be turned off by Trump and reminded of all the reasons they were against Trump in the first place.
And by the way, a lot of those people just left the top of the ticket blank in 2020. It's not even like they voted for Joe Biden.
They just didn't want to vote for Donald Trump.

Look. and want to vote for Donald Trump.
Look, we know things don't feel great right now, but we can equip ourselves for the unprecedented months ahead without letting the news overwhelm us. Join us each week at Strict Scrutiny as we break down the cases that will decide the rules we all have to live by.
We'll supplement your daily news diet with a dose of necessary legal analysis

and a healthy serving of our Real Housewives takes,

some pop music, and 90s throwbacks,

because we believe there's no better way to unwind after an oral argument

than by watching a stupid reality TV argument.

Subscribe to Strict Scrutiny wherever you get your podcasts,

and don't forget to check out full episodes on YouTube. Okay, before we go, we're going to talk about someone we haven't talked about in a while.
RFK Jr. His polling has fallen to single digits.
His campaign barely has any money left. And he's barely been seen out on the trail since the Harris-Biden switch, even canceling some events.
But on Sunday night, he came out of hibernation. See where that's going? By releasing a video in which he admits to a bizarre story about planting the body of a dead bear cub in Central Park.
The details are too nuts for me to even repeat here. So we're going to let Kennedy do it for us in our latest rendition of OK Stop.
Elijah. Elijah is in studio today.
He's here in L.A. Elijah, are you ready with the tape? It's actually Matt with the tape, but yeah.
Great. Well, my script says Elijah, so that's why I'm saying Elijah.
But hey, Matt. Hey.
One second. I would have been ready.
I was taking a group of people falconing up in Goshen, New York, up in Hudson Valley. And that woman in a van in front of me hit a bear and killed it.
Okay, stop. So first of all, fucking RFK Jr.
out of the gate at 100 hundred miles an hour i was taking people falconing in upstate new york you know he's telling this story too he can the only person that is famously crazier than he is he is telling the story to roseanne bar of all people roseanne and keep in mind this is a video that was filmed by rKJ News campaign and tweeted out last night in advance of a New Yorker profile about him. And the point of this video is to get ahead of the story.
They thought they were pulling something over on the New Yorker with this video of him telling this story to Roseanne Barr about him falconing. The tweet is, try to spin this one, New Yorker.
And you're like, okay, I guess probably the New Yorker was going to probably put a pretty bad spin on this story. So I'm glad we get to hear it out of the horse's mouth.
A young bear. I picked up the bear and put him in the back of my van because I was going to skin the bear.
And it was very good condition. And I was going to put the meat in my refrigerator.
Okay, stop. So first of all, let's just, let's just, by the way, I just, I want to be clear about something.
A lot of the time, the focus on RK Jr. is that he's insane.
And I think that that's valid, but there's often two qualities that are not given as much attention, which is one, he's super rich. And the other is that he's a liar.
Right? So are we meant to believe that he saw a van, hit a bear, and then they pulled over and picked up the bear? And his first thought was, mmm. Mmm, delicious.
Because, because... Well, this is serendipitous because I was hungry for bear meat.
Well, it's just sort of like... And here it is.
It's like either you don't know how long the bear has been there or you do. And so you would like us to believe that.
Yeah. Yeah.
If the bear was there a long time, I don't care if you put it in the refrigerator. Maybe that's why he got the brain worms.
I leave a turkey sandwich out on my desk for three hours. I have to Google whether or not I'm allowed to eat it.
You find a bear on the side of the fucking Taconic. Also, if you're listening to this, you got to hopefully you're if you're watching on youtube this is what you gotta watch roseanne's do one do one viewing where you're just getting the story then do a viewing where you're just watching the expression on roseanne's face because what you're seeing right now is a crazy person herself raising her eyebrows even further when he's when he basically says that he was going to eat the bear.
Because RFK Jr.'s tenor in this entire story is, don't you hate it when this happens? And Roseanne is like, what? Roseanne has lost it, obviously, but the comedian in her is like, I can't believe this person thinks that this is a cool story to tell. All right, let's keep going.
In New York City, you can get a bear tag for a roadkill bear. Instead of going back to my home in Leicester, I had to go right to the city because there was a dinner at Peter Luker's State.
Okay, stop. I just, first of all, just a window into a whole world, a way of living that none of us knows about.
He drove upstate with some friends to go fucking falconing, came back in time for dinner in Brooklyn at Peter Luger's. Cash only, by the way, Peter Luger's.
Something to keep in mind. And was held up by a baby bear cub on the side of the road.
And also, by the way, he's like, so Roseanne, obviously we picked the bear cub up off the ground and put it in the trunk of my car because it's legal.

In New York State.

In New York State, you can do this.

If you're asking me about Idaho or Kansas.

Couldn't tell you.

I couldn't tell you.

But I know that in New York State it is legal to get a tag and to eat the bear meat.

You can take that bear meat right off the side of the road.

And at the end of the dinner, it went late.

And I realized I couldn't go home. I had to go to the airport.
And the bear was in my car and I didn't want to leave the bear in the car. Okay, stop.
I just want to pause there and say what he's just describing. Let's just know, no, Mr.
Kennedy. It is probably not a good idea to leave a decomposing fucking bear carcass in the trunk of your car when you head on a trip.
I don't know where you're going, my friend. But no, you're right.
You're smart. You shouldn't leave the bear carcass.
What was the original scheduling idea, by the way? Taking some people falconing back into the city at Pier Lugers, going home to Westchester, and then going to the airport? I don't know. I don't know.
How late was it? What's going on here? What is his life? What is his life? Was it a red eye? Where is this guy in a rush to fucking get? What kind of environmental lawyer is this? All right. I wasn't drinking, of course.
People were drinking with me who thought this was a good idea. And I had an old bike in my car that somebody asked me to get rid of it.
I said, let's go put the bear in Central Park and we'll make it look like he got hit by a bike. Okay, stop.
What? The bike happened to be in the car? I just happened to have a bike that I needed to get rid of. So Roseanne's laughing there is awesome because he's like, so he had this funny idea.
Isn isn't that a funny idea to sneak into central park and hide the dead bear under a bicycle and she's like yeah no i could see how people would think that that was a funny idea also his excuse is like well people were drunk i wasn't drinking but the people around me were drunk and they had the idea well you get like a contact high you know kind of like you're around people who have been stoned, you feel stoned, even though you're not stoned. Clearly.
For people. So everybody thought that's a great idea.
So we went and did that and we thought it would be amusing for whoever found it or something. The New Yorker somehow found out about it and they just, they're going to do a big article on me and that's one of the articles.
So they asked me the fact-trucker said, you know, it's going to be a bad story. Yeah, it is.
It is going to be. The way Roseanne laughed there is also fantastic.
So I just... It's going to be a bad story.
That is shrewd. So 10 years ago, literally 10 years ago, in October of 2014, there was a story in New York.
And the story was dead baby bear found in Central Park under a bicycle. Bear appears to have been murdered.
And it was a it was a wild whodunit. The bike was compensated.
RFK Jr. notes that they were going to try to find prints on the bike.
It was an incredible mystery because why on earth would anybody have snuck a bear cub dead into Central Park and hid it where people could find it underneath a bicycle? The New York Times reported it at the time, and it was written by Tatiana Schlossberg, John F. Kennedy's granddaughter.
Which seems like actually was a coincidence. Coincidence because she said, I didn't know at the time.
How could she have known at the time that it was her uncle that disposed of the bear with the bike in an attempt to fool people because they thought that was a great idea. And I just I really like the dilettante quality of a group of drunk assholes who just spent the day falconing, thinking, wouldn't it be droll if we drive into the city and put this dead bear in Central Park? As they're downing their last martini at Peter Luger's.
Unbelievable. Anyway, that's amazing.
You think that's going to get many votes? Someone should do a poll. Are you more likely to vote for RFK? Less likely or no difference? This is one of the most disturbed people.
So awesome. That we've ever dealt with, like on the national public stage.
Every story out of him is about how there's something deeply, deeply fucked up about him. 10 out of 10.
No notes on that story. Also, I just, this is not the most important thing, but I don't know, even if he hadn't been traveling,

if that bear meat was going to be good after Peter Lugers.

Now we know why he got brain worms.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Wow.

Good job, Claire Malone at The New Yorker for uncovering this.

Yeah, awesome.

It's quite a profile.

Awesome.

And a photo.

There's a photo.

There is a photo.

Where he's pretending to be bitten by the dead bear.'s disgusting weird shit guys weird shit alright there are probably some people in your life who don't listen to this show but who could benefit from what we're offering here for example processing the RFK bear cub story while the fate of the republic literally hangs in the balance you can't get that anywhere else no in all seriousness we would love it if you take a few seconds to share this episode of Pod Save America with a friend or two. You guys sharing our show with your network makes a huge difference in what we're able to do, and we hope you'll consider it.
That is our show for today. Dan and our pal Melissa Murray of Strict Scrutiny will be in the feed with a new show on Wednesday afternoon.
And if you're listening to this and Kamala Harris just picked you to be her VP, give us a call. We'll book you.
Love to have you. Bye.
If you want to get ad-free episodes, exclusive content, and more, consider joining our Friends of the Pod subscription community at cricket.com slash friends. And if you're already doomscrolling, don't forget to follow us at Pod Save America on Instagram, Twitter, and YouTube for access to full episodes, bonus content, and more.
Plus, if you're as opinionated as we are, consider dropping us a review to help boost this episode or spice up the group chat by sharing it with friends,

family, or randos you want in on this conversation.

Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production.

Our producer is David Toledo.

Our associate producers are Saul Rubin and Farrah Safari.

Reid Cherlin is our executive editor

and Adrian Hill is our executive producer.

The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick.

Jordan Cantor is our sound engineer with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis.

Writing support by Hallie Kiefer. Madeline Herringer is our head of news and programming.

Matt DeGroat is our head of production. Andy Taft is our executive assistant.

Thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Haley Jones, Phoebe Bradford, Joseph Dutra,

Ben Hefcoat, Mia Kelman, Molly Lobel, Kirill Pellaviv, and David Toles. Man, it feels like just yesterday we were watching two old, unpopular men running for the world's most demanding job.
My, how things change in between when the ad copy is submitted and when we record it.

Nevertheless, since 1992, every American president except for one has been a white man born in the 1940s.

If Trump wins, that could span 36 years.

As the boomers near the end of their political journey,

John Perdue sets out to make sense of their inheritance and their legacy.

Search boom from The Economist wherever you listen to your podcast and unlock all episodes by subscribing to Economist Podcast Plus.